: i built magus as well. zac being forced to use cinderhulk is a large blow, as it does not provide any of his best stats such as tenacity, armor, and cdr. it's a common misconception that health is zac's best stat, when it does really nothing for him except make him lose more hp due to his ability costs. given it does increase the glob health you regain, it's really insignificant. resistances are much more valuable on him. in my opinion, cinderhulk is a concept that kind of missed the mark by trading one tank weakness for another, especially due to the fact that tank junglers never needed champion killing power. while this isnt the most appropriate thread to post this, i feel a much better item for the game would be something like this: +350 Health +30 Armor +10% Cooldown Reduction UNIQUE: Deals 30 + (1.2 × level) magic damage per second to nearby Monsters. it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a solely ability casting class to not have cdr in it's mandatory item.
I just read your post and I 100% agree with you. I was pretty disappointed when they removed from cinderhulk BOTH tenacity and CDR... now that pretty much the only competitive way for tanks for achieving the cap is buying frozen heart btw, isn't health still very nice on Zac? I mean, you heal a lot more with passive, and being bigger is nice for absorbing skillshots
: no zac player wants a bunch of dumb cluttered shit on his model this is the best way the skin could look skin is already really cool. if anything it needs less, such as removing the duck sounds on his blobs of which i find repetitive and annoying.
Sorry, but I cannot disagree more with you. There are just so much potential and ideas which could be implented on the skin. Most of his skills feel the same, but just in blue. I do not know, If Q had a bit different shape at least, joke have urf/the fish swimming around (since anyway you should not mind having stuff in the model if you use a joke), or the palm trees (Personally my favourite idea. I believe it is awesome, and most of the time you are focused on the place where you will land and you have lots of time to analyze the situation, so all the cluttered stuff should not disturb your gameplay), it would feel better after waiting for 2 years. And if they end up using a simplified model, I do not think it is right to price this skin for 1350 RP And MiMilas is right, if you just want something different but still simple you also have chroma packs available Btw, I am a zac player and I do not find it that horrible. I also think ducks do not always make sound anyways, although maybe they could add an option to silence them.
: Pool Party Zac
I already created a post about this matter... : http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/1bGcKkcP-zac-skin-underwhelming Anyway, those are nice ideas (personally, I would implement URF into zac's body, since it would be cute-creepy at the same time IMO, and he appears already on his recall animation). To add some ideas, his arms could explode/make bubbles on his Q animation, E could be thron using 2 palm trees to launch himself, and his passive could definitely be fancier as you said
: POOL PARTY ZAC
I created a thread suggesting that riot should add something extra to the skin or reduced the price where I put a link of an Image showing the E Idea: http://img00.deviantart.net/b9f6/i/2014/119/3/9/zac_pool_party_by_emiliano_roku-d7ggxgq.jpg I think it would be really awesome and make significant differences from the pool-party skin and chroma packs :P
: >I get that the skin has extra features such as the ducks and sound effects, but honestly, it does not feel that much different from a "blue chroma skin". Even riot admitted that zac pool-party was a fancy recolored skin: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/JGd68MaB-zac-skins?comment=000100000000 I think you misunderstood what the rioter was saying. That was 5 months ago, and he was referring to a fan art of pool party Zac, that was just blue with swim trunks and NOTHING else. He said that the fan art looked like a fancy recolor.
I did not, although maybe I did not express myself correctly. I am not saying that this skin is a recolor, or such thing has ever been stated (Although 5 months ago probably Zac's skin was already at some stage of development). But the rioter says that it tecnically is almost a blue recolor, and I still find this to be true. Sure, you get some googles he wears, a new animation, and some sound effects... But I think that if you take that chroma blue recolor, and add all those features to it, you still haven't added enough content to reach and fulfill what you would expect to get in return from purchasing a skin of 1350 tier.
: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/zeU0ZpAv-nanobot-zac-scrap-heap-zac Some additional description for the Scrap Heap idea: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/BK5AgFdo-i-will-hand-draw-skin-ideas?comment=000100000000
OMFG, that is absolutely amazing!!! I like it as much as the spaghetti zac idea!: http://elohell.net/chill/333237/spaghetti-zac I think all that just reinforces the idea that zac skins should be a "hit or miss thing": Do a awesome job making a nice remodelled skin that blows our minds, although at a higher price, or do a simple chroma. And there are just soooo many awesome ideas they can do with his cool design that I think they should try to accomplish. On this particular scenario, I just find that they can add something, since I have found it is somewhat in the medium quality, but it still needs something that FEELS DIFFERENT in his kit to reach those 1350RP. Q exploding in a bubble? E launching in the form of a cannon or any different way? I do not know. But it is a nice idea: riot please, work around it and make something unique and awesome that seizes this-pool party bubble theme
Rioter Comments
: he is a kid... it is supposed to sound like that... would you want annie to sound like an old woman?
Well, It's about the whole style he has... He is an assassin who enjoys feeling superior and smarter than everybody else using his tricks and predicting the outcome of battle, (again, kind of like wukong... at least for me) If you compare him for example to fizz, which is like a little child just jumping around being careless... I would prefer him a little bit more serious and less childish while still playful and confident. However, I am not complaining at all. It's more about some pitches of the voice which I don't personally like at all, but it is a nice work overall (and some of his quotes are really awesome)
: as i said,damage is not really important in that ulti for me. but it would be nice if it could be used even after death. i mean...i can go back in time and nothing is more useful thad do this after i die
That would be broken IMO... It also does not make sense. Ekko needs to activate the skill in order to use it. Being able to do that seems unfair for the enemy team, does not make sense, and reduces the timing skill required to use the skill efficiently. And Im saying I think it's important for riot and how they wanted to design the champion (in the preview they highlighted his TF potential). Also, I think an ult for an assassin which only increases his survivability is a little odd and boring
: IF you have Lich Bane...everyone can buy Lich Bane and add its damage to their combos The spell does 170+20%AP and it's low damage compared to average....usually if you have low damage you have very short cd too or the campions is manaless (Akali and Katarina has similar damage) and i didn't say only "buff E" but "buff E and nerf passive" for the same amount. Same total damage but more dealt early KIt is nice but i don't really like damage distribution and also 3s to wait W to activate is very much...people can easily go out of the area. If only the shiled was given at the moment you cast the spell it would have sense: you wait for the stun but you have more defense to resist until it comes. Let's say the enemy doesn't go out of the field,you decide to enter,getting shield for 2s and stun for 2.25s..wait,what????? i get a shield while the enemy is stunned but when he can answer to my damage my shield is gone? this doesn't have sense to me.
Well, E helps to use your passive, has the passive effect when you use it, maybe the lich bane, any other on hit effects, and the ratio... yes, 0.2 is underwhelming, but not that much. And ult has massive damage so you may have huge potential in TF and skirmishes, and to add an opportuinity cost so you have to decide if you wanna use it to escape, heal or for damage
: I agree, his damage seems a bit bonkers right now. Personally, if I had to nerf something, I'd tone down some of the damage on his Q, since his passive damage is riskier and should therefore be rewarded more. However, the damage on his W also seems a bit like overkill, since he already has several tools to finish off enemies (even if he uses just his autoattacks to proc his passive, he can deal tons of damage to enemies no matter how much health they have), and perhaps it might be worth removing it if Ekko can execute enemies well enough now. If there's one thing I find weird in his kit, it's the combination of the shield and stun on his W: if Ekko uses Parallel Convergence perfectly and traps his opponents, his stun outlasts his shield, and so his ability ends up not really scaling. The two effects don't synergize with each other at all, and so it may be worth extending the duration of his shield if he stuns enemy champions (and perhaps large monsters too).
God no. Q is perfectly fine to me... on the first go is only 0.2 AP, so you need to position yourself and it's hard to use. About the shield... The point of the shield is so you can use if you are not able to proc the stun. The only point of the shield when you stun is that you are protected from aggro in a TF from mages and stuff (Although I agree that it feels a little weird, I dont like the change of increasing the shield only when you stun... Maybe change the duration of the shield so it matches the stun time? I mean come on, 2.25 stun is already powerful enough, you shouldnt need a shield afterwards xD )
: Ekko Feedback Thread
What do you think about this changes for ekko? Passive: Lower ratio by 0.1 or 0.2, maybe progressively reduce the 3 sec CD to 2.5 or 2 towards the late game? (Because of the DPS assassin and stuff) W: Reduce shield by 0.15 or something similar, and progressive stun from 1.75 to 2.25 as you level it up. Also, maybe reduce passive scailing to +1% each 40-50 AP E: +0.1 Scailing (I mean, it scales very poorly...) That is, unless you want him to rely in lich bane like fizz, ofc R: Reduce ratio by 0.3 (I mean, it is just too flexible and has a very low CD, which I LOVE and I reaaally dont want to change. also, 1.0 ratio is stil pretty big)
: First of all, I have nothing against Ekko having a lightning cricket bat as his weapon. Secondly, both Fizz and Nidalee have AD scalings on their Q skills, which is cool in my opinion because it gives them more viable build routes and don't make them so much AP-reliant. Nidalee bruiser was a niche pick, she was mainly being played as AP mage throwing spears at you and killing you late game with well-aimed javelins. What happened after her rework was part of the damage from her spears got taken away and moved to her cougar form. So she was given counterplay against her, because now to assassinate your targets you have to pounce to them, closing the gap and exposing yourself to potential threat if you don't calculate your damage output carefully. Ekko **_is a split pusher_**. He has strong numbers early game, but he's also very mana hungry. Late game, his shield is off the wall, he hits turrets like with a ton of bricks and you can take out your targets really easily. Don't get me wrong, I like his kit, but these numbers are outrageous. My problem with Ekko is that if he had lower AP scaling and also given some AD scaling, he wouldn't be so absurd.
To me, the rework was more about toxicity of the original kit rather than counterplay, although it ceratinly added counterplay. I mean, that max range spear taking away 70& of your health, 500 heal to carries + AS buff because why not and the jump on 2 sec CD with CDR were just obnoxious. Before I meant to talk about the nerf to bruiser and small buff to AP nida. Honestly, I dont think Bruiser nidalee was that niche and she was God tier for some time in top lane. That is why they decided to reduce AD ratio and increase AP a bit... an AP nidalee has windows where you may interact and punish her, and is also squishy "Ekko is a split pusher"... That looks like a premature statement to me. Im not sure if the damage to turret is intentional, but pushing and escape are good. On the other hand, He is fairly squishy... but I think he has so much Teamfighting potential, and both scailings on the ultimate encourage him to go AP About the AD... Fizz has almost no AD scaling, Q is kind of a long range AA with AP ratio. I think the dash of ekko also applies on hit effects. And with all the CC and decen AA based abilities, I am also planing to play him bruiser in the jungle with a tanky build + wits end and stuff like that (Like with AD Fizz, its more about "On-hit fizz"). And to me some scalings are fairly low. Q has most of the ratio on the way back which is harder to hit. W is a shield (maybe nerf it a little bit, but only 0.1 or 0.2). E scailing is a joke (kind of justified because of the passive 0.7 scailing, so I am ok with that). From the ult, heal scailing is pretty nice to reward AP builds which have to be squishy. The 1.3 AOE though I agree is too much... It should be 1.1 or 1.0 IMO, since it's still hard to use efficiently) I dont get you wrong, I'm just telling you what I think Ekko exclusively has as a champion. He is one of the most tactical assassins in the game, and definitely the one with most CC. Also, assassins are hard to balance in the game, and I think Ekko is a step forward towards seeing more new healthy and cool assassins in the game ^^
: I have played only one game with him but I already a few comments. About his Q, I think the coldown should start only when he got the device back. Otherwise it will be a really annoying poke to his oppenents. About his ult, I think the ap ratio should be low. Sometimes it's just better to use his ult to enjoy the damage it makes, and I belive that's not the main point of his ult. And the ap ratio of his Q and W are really low, his power should be on his Q and W, not on his ult and passive. The stun of his H is way too long.
I actually think ult should deal tons of damage. You have a point and I agree its too big the ratio, but the base dmg is low. This means that 1-If you wanna blow up people in TF with ult, you need to build AP and be squishy, and 2-There is a high opportunity cost on using his ult. What do you prefer? Save yourself from a bad position when you get caught wasting your ult, use it for massive damage, or to heal the damage taking during the TF? (Using it for several purposes would be hard, and enemy team should be aware of your clone's position) But yeah, The combo of ulting to the massive bubble getting health, shield, 2 sec stun and massive AOE dmg is too powerful IMO (although it is hard to land and should feel pretty rewarding, I think its excessive)
: I think his posture resembles wukong in a weird way. You know, he bends forward on one side and holds his weapon almost behind his back - I'm really excited to test his kit out tho, but that detail about his model kinda irritates me :P
The whole character reminds me so much to wukong, with the Dash + extra AA range like a mixture of Wukong's E and Q, or the tricky mobility of his ult and wukong's W, both using clones In my case, it's his voice what bothers me the most... too childish for my taste :P
: Hello, Regarding the champion, I'd like to ask one question - what is it exactly that you want to achieve with Ekko? I know he's meant to be an assassin, but I'm talking the bigger picture here. Tying it into the Ekko discussion, what is the thought process on choosing whether a champion will be AP-based or AD-based? Also, was there at any point in time during the development process, discussion to have him have i.e. energy bar, give him both AD and AP scaling, etc.?
I actually like him AP. Fizz is based on jumping and piercing with a physical trident... and he is AP. This guys has fancy magic bombs and explosions with his weird magic rod... I can see him AP. Also, usually I think AP assassins is the way to go because they give you gaps on the kit so they can be justified to have burst and mobility (Zed has many potential problems for balance such as godlike splitpush, hit like a truck with AA and stuff like that... and they moved nidalee from a bruiser to an AP mage-assassin character so she could have counterplay) He brings to the game a cool character which is half assassin-half utility that has potential to make sick plays in teamfights/skirmishes and that can be mastered by players who are more about making strategies rather than mechanics. I personally love it
: I'm not sure that it's intended, but its probably worth noting that Chronobreak can be used immediately after recalling back to base and it will instantly warp him back to lane. The 4 second delay leaves more than enough time to buy items and restore most of his missing health and mana, and if you throw in homeguard it even gives him the speed boost when he gets back to lane. It probably interacts in the same way with Teleport, but I haven't had a chance to try that one yet. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to play against someone doing that.
Nah. They mentioned that you could use it if you were quick enough buying your items :P On the other hand, you waste your ultimate, you need to be really quick, and you dont have time to regen mana and health, so it has many drawbacks. However, it certainly could be so broken with homeguards xD
: I am loving this new item, I'm getting all excited about how it might perform on {{champion:102}} {{item:3068}} One question though. I'm okay with no tenacity, but would it be possible to squeeze CDR back onto it? Tanks in general are very reliant on their cooldowns, since that's where the majority of their utility comes from, even in the early game. Heck, early CDR can mean damage for our tanks. Just a thought from someone who loves CDR in general :)
IMO, Devourer is just too damn good on shyvana. double AA proc on Q, AS synergizes with her, and she clears damn quickly. What else could you ask for? And I agree... CDR FTW
: After short test I think there are two things you should consider: 1) early dmg nerf to {{champion:111}} when his shield is up is awful. Lets be serious. On early levels shield persist no longer than for 4-5 s under attack of any camp, thus {{champion:111}} can't do more than 3 autos in that time and this aoe dmg wasn't big deal anyway. When his shield is down his clearing ability is close to 0. I understand that this nerf comes because of Cinderhulk BUT he wont have it on low levels, therefore nerfing damage on higher W levlels is justified however on lvl 1 (especially) it should stay as it is. 2) Second problem is more complicated. Cinderhulk damage works as {{item:3068}} right? Then you wont be able to use {{item:3117}} as this damage will turn off its passive immediately after closing to a minion. Making Cinderhulk more like {{item:3075}} (damage goes only for the attacker, not as aura) would solve this but would lower it raw strength. What's your opinion on it? Should there be some movement speed compensation inside the item? Some other champions may not be interested in buying {{item:3117}} as they don't need additional movements speed outside the combat to gank effectively.
THIS I liked my nautilus as he was before... and his shield being his core farming ability in the jungle (specially early on) And I have always hated the fact that that sunfire's passive is always activated, specially while walking through the jungle taking aggro, or for the example of mob boots you just mentioned...
: Tanks on Fire - Incoming Cinderhulk + Gromp changes
I must be one of the few people which look a little disappointed about changes :/ As a jungler main (Specially tanky junglers such as nautilus, sejuani and zac), there is no a stat that I like more than CDR. CDR is clearing (Since most tanks rely on their AOE skills for clearing), and allows you to use more CC and gank more lanes with your ultimate. As such, I have frequently bought the magus enchantment in champions such as Sejuani not because of the AP (which is still OK), but for the massive CDR spike and presence on lanes you get. Juggernaut was still pretty decent with 10%... well, not anymore :( And really, I believe you riot should give more possibilities to itemization... There are SO DIFFERENT champions in LoL. While supports have CDR everywhere and is actually even hard no not go over the 40% cap on late game, there are not many decent objects for tanks other than frozen heart which allow you to get lots of CDR (and you may be limitied by teh fact that should only buy one frozen heart per team due to the passive not stacking). Look for example at my poor Zac. How am I supposed to hit the cap? 10% from solari/spirit visage (which forces me to buy a MR item), and what else???? Lucidity boots? (no mercury, and tenacity is actually pretty important for tanks IMO). Ohmwrecker? (which I would say is a situational item, and has considerable weaker stats than alternatives such as randuin or frozen heart). Hell, do I have to build AP with twin shadows or buy frozen heart anyways despite of all the lost stats? Now without juggernaut, the only feasible and reliable possibilities I can find really are runes and masteries, the MR item previously mentioned and magus enchantment... I mean yes, the main problem with tanks is the lack of damage (although I haven't struggled too much with them in my casual games by investing on strong early game masteries :P ), and I am very happy that you are on the tanks team this time... But it would be nice if you did something about CDR and other stats itemization. Thank you if you consider my point of view
: Thank you and again thank you RIOT
Well, if you play non popular champions, you may find bugs which are less likely to be found by other testers ^^ There are constant changes in coding, and bugs appear on EVERY champion... so just play and report strange stuff you may find. Do not worry too much
: (Hi, Designer for Bard here, no Red Name on PBE etc etc I posted this a lot) One quick thought here -- I like you calling out that chimes should be worth Gold. I considered that too, but ended up thinking that since Gold is really just a placeholder for buying more stats, as long as his chimes give him an appropriate amount of stats (through his upgrades), that they're "as good as Gold" in a way already. That said, chimes may be under-tuned right now, so their value may not quite be on par. Although, even then it's not 1-to-1, since the idea is that Bard is turning his map mobility into pressure and objective opportunities, which are worth their weight in Gold as well :) For 2, the meep recharge decreases a few times as you get chimes (12 -> 8 over a long enough game), but this number may need to drop more aggressively earlier. Thanks for the feedback!
Hi Rabid Llama. First, I just wanted to congratulate you for making your first champion (which is probably one of the most original ones I have ever seen, which is awesome). About the chimes, have you considered reducing the spawn cooldown and decreasing the amount of time before chimes disappear? 10 minutes looks like too much for me, and making the chimes subgame more dynamic would allow Bard to decide if he wants to assist more to his supp or roam around the map for longer. Also, I feel like chimes are earned too slowly... It is very hard to earn a big amount of chimes in a normal game, and towards the very late game there are very cool bonuses which bard can get. I agree that they should not give gold... they are awesome, and them benefiting unique effects to the character gives him personality and awesomeness (that slow and AOE poke :D) As a suggestion, have you thought about giving bard some ratios? I mean, I understand that he is a supp, but he has almost no scaling while any other ranged supp such as lulu nami janna sona... have so many utility ratios (% of MS, slow, extra AD, damage reduction, health). I mean, AD is not a good idea with his range, and if going full AP heals would be nice, but Q ratio is pretty meh and he would be too squishy to use his passive on AA. Maybe giving a little of MS ratio on the heal could be a good idea? Also, I think you should be careful about the ultimate if you just wanted to give it massive range for defensive purposes... Right now the combo "Bard waiting from the bush, ulting on enemy laner, positioning and timing Q for stun and free kill" seems pretty damn strong IMO Btw, I am very excited about the champion. I am planning to try him roaming with relic shield, kind of like a next level ambulance soraka pre rework ^^
: Bard's Chime Spawning under enemy turrets
I am ok with chimes under turret. You could also take them if you push, or even when the enemy team backs so there is no danger. plus, if he takes some aggro he can potentially heal himself with W. What I would like is the chimes rate increased. It is so hard to get most of its bonuses, and this ability is one of the things I like the most from Bard. Rising the amount of chimes which spawn would allow Bard to take diverse strategies (do i wanna help my adc or go roaming and get more chimes?). It would be also nice if the duration before the chimes disappears was reduced. I think 10 minutes is too much, it would bring balance after the increased rate. Maybe even make that the closer the chime respawns to Bard/your team side of the map, the faster it disappears (?)
: Can we buff Thresh ult?
Sorry for the late reply I really think that amumu ult can be more game changing when timed correctly in a teamfight for example, and i personally love how Braum can bring considerable amounts of CC and such an amazing peel, but never mind. As I said in my OP, i don't wanna buff thresh because he needs it... it is just that I feel it would be a nice buff without improving too much his power. Thresh has always been strong because of how his kit has so much utility (lantern is too unique and useful). I think that the reasons why he is so popular is mainly that he is a very versatile champion which can make unique plays, having a high skill cap and being a very safe pick overall. It is just that IMHO many ultimates in the game do the same thing that thresh one, but way better
Rioter Comments
: Had they just done it to blue and red it wouldnt be the end of the world, but I'm really not a fan that they've done it to EVERY camp. Now so many people are going to benefit from immediate buffs. =/ edit: holy shit seriously? just walking up and smiting red and all of a sudden you have nothing left to fear in the jungle. There is now no challenge to it.
Well, I also think that it may be too much... As I was saying before, I can think about people just smiting camps from outside the wall on mid-late game without even bothering to kill the monsters xD About red... aren't you exagerating? o_O I mean, sure, it gives a lot of health, but I think that you still will still have to play a bit carefully Btw, what would happen if 2 people from different teams smite the same wolf? :O Edit: Fuck, I just realised about all the "Wells" that I've written at the beginning of my posts Z_Z
: Some champions have always depended (somewhat) on their ability to get blue buff. If riot decides that they want to minimize the impact of that they will likely retune the mana costs of those affected champions or incorporate it into hunters machete. Changing the way that the smite buffs function is unnecessary as that would impact everyone in the game. It wouldnt ruin the mechanic in itself, but it would spoil the continuity blue has with other camps. In order to make it uniform you'd have to do the same thing to red, and then it wouldnt even be a challenge anymore. That would defeat the purpose of red side jungle being as challenging as it is.
Wow, it seems that in the new patch they are doing what i was suggesting but with all the monsters :O I'm interested about vision in late game... Birds smite-buff is going to be really strong by then
: I dont know for a fact that red was "supposed" to be challenging, but the new jungle is a challenge overall and red/birds definitely hit the hardest, so I assume this is intentional. I also assume that's why they were so willing to put a huge health boost on red.
Well... I just thought they gave him health because now jungle is stronger overall and health suits red (you know, blue->mana, red->health). At the same time, the frog poison-buff is also quite helpful for clearing camps and is on blue side. And about birds... maybe just testing and they increased it too much. Who knows what riot was actually planning xD
: Some champions have always depended (somewhat) on their ability to get blue buff. If riot decides that they want to minimize the impact of that they will likely retune the mana costs of those affected champions or incorporate it into hunters machete. Changing the way that the smite buffs function is unnecessary as that would impact everyone in the game. It wouldnt ruin the mechanic in itself, but it would spoil the continuity blue has with other camps. In order to make it uniform you'd have to do the same thing to red, and then it wouldnt even be a challenge anymore. That would defeat the purpose of red side jungle being as challenging as it is.
Well, this champions which are dependent of blue buff are usually bad on early game, and not starting with blue increases the risks of the buff being stolen from them. The impact it would have for other players don't seem negative to me. About red, I did not know that starting red is supposed to be more challenging... although with the new birds it definitely harder. For me, starting red or blue was just about which buff you prefer and which lanes you are planning to gank first
: Amumu clears those birds easier than practically anyone else I've seen. Aoe junglers have no problem with them. And fid is literally the easiest clear there is in this jungle. Hec needs love, but they'll get to it. And suggesting that mana should not be a limiting factor is silly. It's a resource system that league of legends is balanced around. If no one is restricted by their ability to use it, then we have no reason to include mana in the game to begin with. Some champs will always be impacted by it. Others who are impacted too much should (and will) be tuned on a case by case basis. And I personally dont think that the tiny tiny gain in flexibility is worth ruining the continuity of the jungle smite mechanics.
:S I meant to say that mana shouldn't be that important at choosing which champions should jungle and which other one shouldn't. That's why I mentioned those mana hungry champions... Because if mana became too hard to get, they could find big difficulties, and some of those champions like amumu are almost only able to play as junglers. About the birds, as an independent commentary I was just saying that they deal lots of damage and they seem harder than other camps for me. About mana, I was just trying to say that it shouldn't be a main factor. Amumu or hecarim have big mana costs early, and katarina has no energy: However, katarina isn't a good jungler. I think mana use should be a minor factor compared with ganks or clear times for example. Of course, maná is a good mechanism to control champions, and I am ok with it being a wakness which is bigger/smaller in certain champions. And why ruin mechanics :( ? The only concern I had about mechanics was that it could be confusing at the beginning that blue and maybe red could have instant mini-buffs instantly when smite is applied while the other ones are given when the monster dies. But I don't think it would ruin anything. The way this variation of smite would work with blue and red actually already exists! When nunu uses Q (which is pretty much a second smite) on a big monster, he gets the mini-buff instantly
: Well its certainly true that it will change the interaction of giving blue away to mid. I've simply been considering the jungler without any inside influence so far. Honestly my main objective on the pbe right now is just to prove that most people can actually clear the jungle on their own, as opposed to the instant death people are suggesting. As for the people that run out of mana while jungling, the decision of giving up blue or taking it for yourself has always been a decision that is present for them in the game. Beyond that riot has openly taken up the stance that some champs are simply not going to blossom in the jungle, and mana will come into that. Lots of champs could make benefit from getting the smite mana but still giving up second blue, but it really only applies to that first and second blue, as beyond that you probably dont want to be using smite for blue every time it comes up as opposed to enemy jungle/dragon/baron. Again, while the possibility of being a boon to plenty of champs exists, and it does increase flexibility a little, I don't think its going to make a big change *in practice* beyond the people that need the mana already.
Well, Im not very concerned about jungle difficulty because that is just about balancing numbers, and I don't think riot will make completely unviable junglers such as amumu or sejuani. From me however, a small nerf to some monsters like the birds camp would be nice. I don't think that mana should be a main factor which determines what champion should be able to jungle and who does not. Amumu, hecarim, fiddle... They are good junglers all. Indeed, the biggest impact this change has would be in early game, it would feel very nice (Think about it in this way. If you nerf/buff a champion, a moderate impact on games where that champion is played will be produced. If however you change turrets/minions/monsters etc, those changes will affect all games in the summoners rift.) And you can also smite at a specific time an enemy blue so you can fill your mana pool and reduce the time you have to spend exposed to danger in the enemy jungler :P. Even if you were right and the change is very small... Isn't it better to make the worst of the smite-buffs a little more flexible?
: I think it is most appropriate the continue having mana come from blue buff. I think that mechanic would give rise to some odd interactions with just smiting it as you go by for extra mana or multiple smites pulling bonuses from the same buff. It also kind of spoils the consistency with the jungle. It would be helpful, but the people that would benefit from it the most are the people run out of mana during the process of doing blue. Those champions are the same ones that are benefited from the mana bonus in its existing state, so in practice the impact of making that change is pretty minimal. I really wish the jungle changes were up so I could go test which champs could use it most.
No no no. I mean, getting the buff when you kill the monster seems the best for me as well (What would happen otherwise if 2 teams smite a wolf? vision for everybody?). I was thinking about giving directly the buff just after smiting the blue (and maybe the red), since they don't provide proper buffs but only gives mana or health. About that this has a minimal impact, I highly disagree with you. Sometimes when I play junglers with moderated mana costs such as Vi or wukong and my mid ask me for the blue buff I am like "Well... I guess I can deal with that, although I am already running a bit low of mana". being able to smite the blue would help me with a little boost with my mana while still giving the buff to my mid laner (wait... because if someone else kills a monster that you smited, do you still get the buff? If that is true, my argument is invalid, although other odd interactions could happen when the enemy team slays a monster you have previously smited). Anyway, giving the mana bonus straight I think that wouldmake more jungle routes viable for more champions and overall make the mini-buff more flexible.
: I apologize but I don't immediately recall which junglers made immediate use of the extra mana. I've been recording routes and the times to a full clear, but most don't have notes over than that. I can agree that the majority can make due with the regen from the buff itself
Dont worry :P So do you still don't want the mana smite-buff to be changed? If the awnser is yes, What do you think about giving mana instant instead of after killing the monster
: I agree with this, I almost feel obligated to start red at the moment because it gives me enough health to take a few more camps, whereas blue's smite buff seems to be focused mostly around if you get it when you're low on mana and contesting the buff. That's really the only situation I can think of where it's helpful.
Well, I personally did not find the first problem you had because I like to start other camps (like the frog) using smite on them so I can clear the blue and later camps faster. Also, by the time I arrive the red camp I should have smite up to get the extra health. About the only situation where it could be useful when you are about to get oom... Well, you will get the required mana to start casting your skills again in just a few seconds with the blue buff, and you won't actually end using that extra mana unless you spam like crazy with certain champions which are very mana hungry (maybe udyr and amumu?). Again, I think it would benefit you in a too specific situation and I think I would still prefer other smite-buffs. I was talking with a friend and he argued that smiting a blue in order to secure it is important enough to be worth using smite, and that junglers don't need any other incentive to do this... However, with the increased cooldown of smite and the possibility of getting more useful mini buffs, I think this won't be worth. In addition, there are also many ways for a jungler to prevent counter jungling and buffs being stolen from him (the anti-wards buff, the ghost-wolf buff, buying wards, trinkets, check the minimap if the other jungle is anywhere else, "move" the buff into a bush to deny vision...). It also wouldn't be fair because the health that the red buff gives is way better than the mana given by blue (although there are more champions dependent on blue buff than champions dependent on red buff) NinjaGinge23, which are those jungles did you find that benefited from blue? Because I really think that just with the blue buff it should be enough for the majority of champions (Ok, some wouldn't spam all skills whenever they are available, but I think their clear times wouldn't suffer much). I agree that it is logic that the benefit from the "monster of the mana buff" is... well... mana xD. But I really think it is the worst and less versatile of the smite-buffs and I would really like it to be changed to something cooler which can compete with other mini-buffs. If riot decides to stick to the mana thing, can I at least ask for giving mana instantly instead of when the monster is slain? in this way, mana could be obtained when you are already oom, and it would be interesting for some interactions (for example, you smite the second buff to get some mana while giving it to your mid laner)
Rioter Comments
: I wrote a reply to your argument but just as I finished I lost it to accidentally hitting the wrong key. So I might try to rewrite it in a few days when I stop being sad. :(
LoL That has happened to me as well way too many times... It's so frustrating xD
: I disagree. **Full Champion Pool** I think the way riot set ARAMs up is pretty good already. If you include every champion in the pool there is just too many champions in the pool that people haven't played. It lowers the quality of play in ARAM because people don't know how to play their champion and it happens a lot already. I've played since season 1 and I still only have 67/121 champions though I have tried a few that I don't own. I don't buy champions I don't like because I don't want to play them and I don't even play or like all of the champions in my pool. Getting a champion you don't like has been a big problem already because it has caused people to dodge a lot in the past and even now with punishments people still dodge ARAMs for that reason. It is cool however that Riot did include the free champion rotation that way people can try new champions without overwhelming there own personal champion pool so they can just re-roll to get a champion from their own pool. If people want to try a free champion they can use a game mode where they can pick a champion because a lot of people don't like being forced into playing a champion they aren't familiar with. **Banning in ARAMs** A lot of people don't want to have banning in ARAM because is nice every once and a while when you actually do get to play your favorite champion that would get banned all the time. Also people do play ABAMs (All Ban All Mid) in customs if you want to go join and play them. Back when ARAM wasn't an official game mode, when people played them on summoners rift in customs, ABAMs also existed however one out shined the other by a lot because people enjoyed and played ARAM more than ABAM. Almost all of the custom games were ARAMs and there was a lot of them and there would only be about 5 ABAMs and that's being generous. **Suggestion** I understand that you want the entire champion pool and some people want ABAM but a lot of people would be upset if they changed ARAM itself to be like that. It'd be better off if these suggestions were made into a separate queue but a lot of people would have to show their support for it because Riot doesn't like splitting up the community too much into different game modes because it makes queues for everything a lot longer. That is one of the reasons they only have temporary game modes for a week or two. That way the deadline makes people play the game modes while they can so the queue isn't too long and it doesn't affect other queues permanently if it takes too much of the player base away. I would probably start by asking Riot to try out ABAM as a temporary game mode that way the regular player base gets to try it and then Riot can see how much support it really has and how it would affect and split the community. **TL;DR** 1. People don't like being forced to play champions they don't want to play 2. Banning in ARAM is a whole separate game type 3. Ask for a temporary game mode so you can gain support for your game type
Nice feedback About the full champion pool... Well, for me it is completely the opposite xD. I mean, I get tired of most of the champions if I play them 5 times in a row, and I like a lot to change and try new stuff. At the beginning I hated lots of champions such as Garen or Trundle, but when I tried them a bit more I started to like their style. There are problably many other champions which I haven't played much but are awesome. And I personally do not have a huge champion pool, and the main reason for me to play ARAM is basically have short and fun games trying new stuff that usually I don't play. Also, In ARAM people don't care that much about how well you play compared to a normal game in the summoner's rift, and when I wanna trying champions I have the chance to play against real people (because against bots it is boring and too easy). Also, for example yesterday I played an ARAM game and my teammate had a draven. He hated him and sucked with him, but sadly no one could swap with him because we hadn't bough that champion. I may be wrong, but I think that increasing the available amount of re rolls and being able to swap with any player should be enough reduce the number of people being unhappy for playing a champion they hate. About banning in ARAM... Well, I think that you have to take into account some changes there have been. For example, maybe it is that I am just paranoid, but I am seriously starting to believe that some player have special accounts for only playing ARAM xD. There have been several times when I had to fight against team compositions such as varus, lux and Veigar at the same time, and that is not fun at all. However, I really think that people who mainly play as a tank or bruiser are disencouraged to play ARAM because lots of matches are just not fair. About setting temporary ABAM... well, another reason why modes are temporary is to entertain people with something funny and unusual, without them getting tired of it quickly. This modes are usually something special and fun (6 people in smal map, crazy URF...). I think that some people could be disappointed with ABAM. However, It is a really good idea to test how much people like the idea, and as a start it seems a great idea. Keep in mind that the idea of the whole champ pool/bans are just to try to solve a problem that I think ARAM currently has: Some champions such as poke mages are very frequently and really strong and overwhelming to play against
: I believe Riot is trying to figure something new out for ARAM because of this exact problem. I can't find their post but I remember they said they were going to basically do what you are suggesting. They would test a new reroll system on the PBE to see how it worked. That was a month or more ago so they haven't had anything to say about it since then. I know they were waiting until after Worlds to start testing some new crazy stuff on the PBE so I would be they we are going to see some new information about a reworked ARAM in the near future. :)
I really hope that is true. I mean, I can't see how those changes wouldn't be beneficial. Also, I just realized that if all champs were available, any player could swap champion with another player of the same team, which just makes the game more enjoyable for players since they are likely to feel more confident with their character. About the ban system, the only concern that I have is that I personally play ARAM when I feel like I just wanna play a quick game, and the ban system could make the game a bit slower. OP poke champions also would be less common. However, it is true that some champions such as pre-rework gragas, ziggs or sona are a pain in the ass, so maybe it is worth testing ban picks to see if people likes it or not.
Rioter Comments
: Soraka Rework Feedback Thread
I have played her for one game, and she felt better than the live version. However, I did not feel that her kit was completely balanced/finished. I maxed R>W>Q>E. During the laning phase she seemed quite strong. My adc could win trades and sustain thanks to the new massive heal, and Q was not too hard to land. However, in the mid game people was more far away and they had too much reaction time to dodge my Qs. Because of this, when I came from base full health heal felt really strong, but after spaming it a bit I was several minutes low health not being able to regenrate health (also, the risk of getting close to land a Q which would problably miss wasn't worth the damage I could receive). I also agree with some people that it doesn't make much sense that stars fall slower when they are shot further. I would suggest that the damage and heal effectiveness were reduced when Q is shot at long range (and problably the slow, but not sure about that). Apart from that, she fits well the role I think riot wanted her to have. She is a squishy healer massively sustaining carries close to them (In my game, viktor got fed and could destroy the top and mid champions at the same thanks to my healing). My only complain is that many times I hard way too many difficulties trying to regenerate my health. Also, it would be nice to have a minimum heal amount on W depending on the %maximum health of the healed champion , because right now it is not worth to heal tanks because you could save your health for the adc or mage of your team
: Xerath stun fail
I had the same problem playing as azir against xerath

tochocho

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