: Hi, I played a little the Kat's rework and i've already got a lot of feedback. Passive - I'm glad nothing got changed here, it's really what was the more interesting about her oldly. Q - Bouncing Blade - Nothing to say here, lowering the number of bounces, no marks + the dagger mechanics makes her a lot more interactive in laning phase so I think it's cool, even though last hitting is a lot more harder than before. Dagger - Here I've got a really huge problem. The mechanic is very good, it brings a lot more thinking in Kat's plays, but i think the falling time should be lowered by 0.5s. Currently it's very hard, if not nearly impossible to use it correctly, even though the new Shunpo mechanic (being able to Shunpo on the wished side) makes it possible sometimes. + The huge falling time makes Kat's speed a lot slower than what i was expecting as a Kat' OTP. W - Preparation - Here i think the same, just lower a little the Dagger falling time and it's ok, this spell allows a lot interesting things like wall Shunpo for example. E - Shunpo - Great job here, i love how it became. Before lvl 6 you can't do much with the cd reduction since there is still 2s cd, but i feel it's fair, i feel like her first real powerspike should really be lvl 6. R - Death Lotus - Here i think there is also a problem. R got buffed too hard I think, the only reason i was successfull as Kat' on PBE was this spell. Even when i was not using correctly the Dagger mechanic, i just had to press R to kill my target everytime. I'll keep testing it and giving feedback, but here was my first impressions with like 5-6 training customs and 1 real game. And it could be cool to enable blind pick in PBE since all assassins are getting banned in this useless ranked queue, which makes people not able to play them u_u
I dont agree with your R opinion, maybe because i really love the old kata and her ult is like what makes her kat to me like zeds ult makes him zed. But i do agree with the dagger, fall time is too long. 0.5 would be better and i feel if W had a placeable region, a small circle around kat, rather than just on top of her. Q maybe the distance needs to be brought in a bit so the dagger lands closer, this again would work with faster gameplay :) They take out ward hops for example so if you could then use w for ward hopping given the long cdr you choose dmg or mobility it wouldnt be both really. I know you can wall hop with the thin walls but i think you could open it up further as apart from ult kata has to pick up daggers for dmg really. Its not like i can press w and do dmg now. Really fall time to 0.5 and having a little area to place w i think she would be perfect.
: [Assassins] Katarina Feedback Thread
I think kata needs some adjustments. Firstly the q dagger always landing behind can sometimes just completely messy your dmg up. I also think being able to place w within a certain area not just on top of yourself would be a lot more effective. Plus i feel kata you are still building glass cannon so i think the dagger drop needs to happen quicker 0.5 seconds. You arent going to just stand there and be one shot for 1 second. I like the direction but i feel that the numbers are off and maybe a revision of w needs looking at. I think also the dagger dropping down should deal some dmg. Obviously with these changes maybe a dmg reduction needs to take place. I do like the new kat but i feel you have tried to hard to take in certain places i dont like how your 2 main dmg abilities essentially cant be used if you dont hit them with e. It's a zoning tool but then you can zone yourself off players will learn to get ready to punish you when you go in. W also i feel 11 second CD or something at rank 5 is far too long, should be more like a 3-4 second cool down. Take the dmg down but lower cd and let players choose, either that or revert her w except when you w it drops a dagger to reset your e. I feel that after players get used to laning, playing against her, in the current state it will become too predictable, she has options but they are very linear, q, e, w, e, but its pathed by the daggers. She is fast but only when you hit the resets and they take 1 second each, the problem with the spells is they will put a glass cannon frontlining when you are in and then you have to wait 1 second to do dmg, and targets might have gone away from you. Ultimately the direction is good but i feel some tweaks are needed. Q - let the dropping dagger do dmg. W - lower the CD, and let players choose where to put it within a radius of kata - this will offer true outplay potential. / Revert for consistant dmg but let it drop a dagger to reset E, no additional dmg. E - fine wouldnt touch it Ult -fine though dagger dropping would be fun in it. dagger drop lower to 0.5 take some dmg off the sinister steel passive because you will be proccing it more.
: > Mages simply have poor defensive itemization against ad. I don't believe I want to tackle this issue currently. Mages that do have to stand toe to toe against AD usually have some targetted defense in their kits - while long range mages I believe we just want to keep always kind of fearing for their lives against physical threats. This is very much by design that you are capped at how much you can spend in Armor in the AP space. That said - Maw really *really* isn't helping things in this regard with its damage spike potential the other way. :p > These two have a history of completely breaking good mage items due to their cross-pollination between AD/AP, and as fun as these items are, I really do feel like these two are an innevitable issue that should be looked at very closely before any of this gets near release. Excellent point. I'll try to ask around about this a bit more to see if we can break some things on the extreme end. It's pretty likely one of the three (ezreal, corki, kayle) will pose serious problems with something. > GLP-07A icons Man it's late. I'll swap the icons. Give me a bit. > Mages who really will achieve even more absurd levels of mobility than they already have access to. I think the damage component on it may be overkill. Its like fusing a and a dash into one item, and as cool as that sounds, Yeah - it's a really dangerous experimental space. One of the things that are meant to roadblock pure AP assassins a bit is that throwing a Kindlegem in there is a fairly big setback for most of the champions listed above. While the additional health is nice - it does mean that it slows down their burst power progression. > Athene's looks like a support item, not a mage item. Since outside of a scant few Utility mages There's no way to make the "Blood charges" work effectively, Athene's heavily risks being completely abandoned by the mage class as a whole. Yes. If you go down Athene's as a mage - you are basically declaring that you have decided to specialize into supporting your team. This is targetted at a specific subset of champions who can make that choice - as they are basically the only ones who we think deserve to be able to spec into heavy mana regeneration. > How does work relative to mana/hp equalibrium? Does it do either form of regeneration well when the Hp/Mp %values are even? It just bounces back and forth depending on which one is currently higher. > Why is this effect lost on upgrading to Athene's? It's not lost when upgrading. Athene's just lost the murder-stat. > Is there any concern regarding supports diving into some of these new actives? Not particularly. Mana and MP/5 are statistics that are shared among a wide variety of classes. Tanks, Supports and Mages all touch this system - and so it's important that Mana and MP/5 items can "bleed" over to the various classes. The design intent is that there's some inefficiencies when picking it up (For example, Alistair picking up Athene's doesn't quite deal enough damage to hit max blood charges all the time) - but that they are acceptable splash candidates.
I don't get Mages have poor itemization against AD. Rod makes you a lot tankier, Zhonyas gives you armor and a stasis and AP. I play a lot of ADC champs and for defensive items on the odd occasion you have to pick up a randuins or Tabi, Mages can also build this in place of AP. There has to be a trade off really in dmg vs defensive.
: Please update a magic penetration item to deal with super tanks as a mage. It's beyond annoying playing Orianna or Syndra and not being able to do ANYTHING to a Garen or Sion. With a full build, you'll just end up chunking a measly 400 health from their 4000 health bar. Make Liandry's similar to Black Cleaver - the more magic damage dealt will result in more magic resist chinking off of them.
There was a reddit post about this. Mages shouldn't be able to deal with super tanks thats the ADCS job.
: AP nerfs on Zhonya and Abbyssal gonna hurt AP assassins very much.... {{champion:103}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:55}} I really hope you gonna buff AP assassins because of that. You are literally gutting 2 core items on champs that scale with AP..... increase AP ration on skills of those champs? make Ludens, Rabadon. Rylai give more AP? we need back those AP you are taking away from zhonya and abyssal also 2 minute cooldown on Zhonya's Hourglass is most stupid idea ever.... AD assassins are herp derping hard, they got their own items to protect from AP burst and now you are punching in the face AP casters/assassins? Zed will be now 100% must ban
Zhonyas is good on ahri still. Will be a bit wasted on Kat i feel which is a shame I hope RIOT are going to look to help AP assasins especially kata. She's been behind all the rest for far too long really when it comes to high elo play.
: [Planned - 6.9] Mana x MP/5 x AP x MR Item Pass [Updated - 4/11/2016]
I think the hextech Item with a dash would be unhealthy. It now gives mages with CC some mobility which they shouldn't really have, LB if building it will now be ridiculous. Or lux with a dash it kinda takes away the weakness from those champs, high damage with CC and no mobility. Oh now they have Mobility. Tanks have already moved infront of assasins. Now actual assasins might not even be able to kill a squishy mage due to stuff like this. Also i think if you are changing AP items you need to think about AP champs without mana like kat and Akali who might want to build zhonyas or abyssal. All well and good looking to change mages but at least then look at balancing up other items or champs. Zhonyas is now a nerf to kat as she doesn't need CDR. Akali i guess would benefit from it.
: 2/9 Pbe Katarina changes: Bouncing Blades (Q)--> Bouncing no longer decreases damage
I think the Q buff is okay. Her E got nerfed and she was in a place where she was unplayable. Thunderlords as helped a fair amount to make it easier, but still Her laning phase is pretty awful if you know how to play against her. Q is long enough cool down to poke hew easily without taking damage. Lux for example great to stay at distance and is she does end up coming in close just stun. I think though in terms of buffs, they should have just buffed her E dmg instead. if you want wave clear as Kat, maxing W is the way to go, rather than buffing Q for increased poke and WC as she can spam due to no mana. I play a lot of Kat so not bothered really about the buff for me ill take it. But should have been the E, so then you still choose poke vs wave clear not now max q for poke and wave clear.
: > [{quoted}](name=Greedy Gremlin,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=xLhcnpNR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-01T23:07:26.977+0000) > > I think the balance they are going for is more crit, but lower damage. You'll notice I.E. got cut down by half to a mere 150% bonus vs 250% bonus damage. a normal auto that does not crit while having 100 AD will do 100 damage the way crits work is that they do 100% moreof your total AD as extra damage. so 100 AD makes it do 200 damage on a crit Infinty edge increases that 100% to 150% of your total AD as extra damage. so 100 AD results in 250 damage on a crit. It was not nerfed in any way toehr then a little less AD
IE didn't get nerfed on its passive. Do crits not do an extra 50% damage like they awlays do?
: Lucian's State
I agree. Lucian has been the weakest ADC for a long time and i know the new items might help but really His E needs a buff and W needs a Buff. I think his Ult is okay, but then you compare it to MF and its like thats bad......... IDK i think he needs a buff though!
: I did not say it was op pay attention to what i said i meant that it gives too much damage and sustain to the area of the game that you get it in.
I think riot are just wanting to see what they can do to evolve LOL. Wouldn't surprise me if some AP items got reworked changed after they smooth everything out after this. I like the new changes and yes it might be better on One champ, but the other masteries will suit other champs. Devourer Yi and the AD stacks mastery. Changes happen like devourer vayne. If it is completely broken which watching on the PBE is seems under control vs Kogmaws W for example, then it will get nerfed.
: he maybe an anti carry but there is currently or at least to me very little counter play even as someone like a bruiser.
Bruisers usually destroy Yasuo in lane. BOTRK is can help but i think more needs to be seen on how strong the crits and sustain is vs bruisers.
: Bloodthirster gives 20% life steal and it cost 3700 and yes i gives addition effect and stats. I just cannot justify building 100% crit while getting 15% life steal for free (even it is every two seconds) and if you couple that with masteries like feast and vampirism and you if you start with a dorans blade you start the game 5% life steal and with the items i mentioned above you get heavy damage and the passive life steal of a bloodthirster for free. By the time you get all these items you are still in the laning phase and i dont know about you but i am not constantly fighting but may hit a minion like (once every two seconds) which would make it very hard to force him down low enough to kill him.
It isn't 15% lifesteal for free. It's a mastery to start off with you might trade that off against the one which build AD stacks of defensive. Its 15% of damage dealt.
: right now you can get 100% with two items and Ie is down to 65 not 75 . yes the have nerfed some of the ad items damage but they have also added many items that offer cheaper more flexible play styles. which allows him to got into almost any match up and preform well. The reason i posted this was to get feedback from the community to see if anyone else agrees with me and to talk to anyone that might disagree with me to try to understand their point of view. Not to argue with someone who is not using the proper information about items. I will give you the fact that bloodthirster and merc have 75 damage now.
my bad i forgot about the IE. I don't really see where the many items have come from. You wont build Trinity over IE im guessing. and then the only 2 items i can see which you would bring in is MS over BT which is not more expensive and then possibly the choice in LW. Lots of counter play by different champs. 100% crit from two items really isn't a big deal vs the old yasuo. Yasuo will be in a similar spot to before just maybe being picked more if people want to start playing adcs in non traditional roles as he is better against ADC's I don't really think Yasuo will be broken. As people have been moaning since release he's broken. Just strong in certain situations and weaker in others.
: I did not say it was op pay attention to what i said i meant that it gives too much damage and sustain to the area of the game that you get it in.
I think the sustain mastery is good as a lot of champs delayed LS for Crits, think about the yasuo build with trinity. Most yasuos build BT. But will now take MS so really sustain will stay around the same as you are used to as MS will be at 14% with masteries then the warlord one every 2 seconds. probably come to around 20% and thats not every auto, thats every 2 seconds. So maybe its just the same Yasuo just more squishies on the map. Yasuo has always been an Anti carry, high mobility and ww. Just like LB is a early game monster and Vayne is a late game carry. Thats who he is blowing up ranged squishies.
: Yasuo in pbe
I hate when people say Yasuo is OP, He's not. If he's behind he cant do much. much like a fed kata just get some hard CC and you can burst him in a second. Yes he can build 100% crit but he was at 80% from 2 items and a lot run crits in runes so 90-95% from two items. Ie got nerfed, All the 80 ad items got nerfed by 5. Yes the new masteries suit him. He will stay in the same spot i think. The only difference being is maybe comps will start running a adc in the mid lane or 2 down bot then assasins will find it easier. Which i think is fine its been tank/bruiser meta for so long. ADC's were in a weak place for a long time. Now these changes will affect some champs. More ADC = more squishies. Stop complaining and just wait to see how it plays out. eventually the meta will switch again. AP champs have been shining for a long time now. Viegar has been ridiculous as of late. Just because the meta has shifted so it might not favor them isn't the end of the world maybe just learn a new champ?
Rioter Comments
: Smaller 5.22 Marksmen Changes PBE Feedback Thread
I think most of the changes are good. I dont like Kogmaws W to OP. 1 v 3 champs by standing there and bursting them down..... Jinx needs a buff on the rocket speed. 5% nerf i would say.
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=N7VZrAws,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-28T21:46:25.412+0000) > **Vayne** > > * **Change Goals** > * Silver Bolts is about expected time to kill on all targets (not squishy bursting), and Vayne's path to success needs to come through Silver Bolts. > * **Base Stats** > * AD/lvl reduced 2.66 >>> 1.66 > * **W - Silver Bolts** > * Flat Damage removed > * Percent Health Damage increased 4/5/6/7/8% >>> 6/7.5/9/10.5/12% > * Minimum damage introduced at 40/60/80/100/120 flat damage I don't care if you did reduce her AD/lvl and removed W's flat damage. 12% Max HP **True Damage**? Are you kidding me? That's insane auto of true damage! 3 autos and that kind of chunk on a tank is nuts. How is a tank supposed to build against that? Armor doesn't do anything, HP only increases her damage. Vayne isn't a vampire hunter; she's an armadillo hunter. {{item:3070}} {{champion:33}} {{item:3070}}
That is what vayne is supposed to do. Champions like rammus and darius were shitting and ADC late game. So vayne is supposed to be a champ who can rip them apart. She trades off in squishiness.
: Kog'Maw PBE Feedback Thread
His W is OP, i watched him 3 v 1 a riven, graves and blitz. He seems okay except for the as on his w, maybe scale it down to 3s and make it shorted duration. when you can 3 v 1 those champs then you know its broken.
: Am I the only one that feels that Lucian was left out? Everyone recieved some cool changes meanwhile Lucian got ultimate rebalanced. He builds crit item which gives him AS anyways so it's not like the ult was buffed by a lot. Yes you get more shots but that's not the buff he needed. He has only 1 damaging ability before he levels his ultimate and that 1 damaging ability can be "dodged" without even trying. It was stated by a rioter a long while back that you need 420 movespeed to dodge the spell with only walking and no dashing or speeding up. Well tell that to the countless people dodging it with 300 speed. And, because this is your only damaging ability if this random "dodge" happens on lvl 3 all in you can lose the game sololy because of that bug. Lucian heavily requires snowballing and keeping his opponent at bay. I feel like this change is somewhat insignificant and considering how he is not the strongest at the moment (lowest winrate out of all ADCs played even with 125+ games on the champion) and he recieved the most insignificant buff out of everyone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last season his range got nerfed and some of his abilities buffed. Everything after that has been NERFS after NERFS. He had EVERYTHING nerfed - passive, Q, W, E and R. Do you really think he'd be in a healthy spot if even before the changes he is struggling a lot?
Lucian is such a cool ADC, its ridiculous the amount of nerfs he has got and his W isnt that great, should get an AD ratio, or some utility like a slow. I also think he needs 550 range again. I know the new essence reaver gives him crits and CDR. But CDR lucian isn't really viable as his E got nerfed. Thats why people started playing Lucian as a normal ADC with shiv/ie build path which again wasn't that great. All i feel the new items have done is let a hybrid build into one. Neither of them i think would be as good as other ADC's like MF, Kogmaw, Graves, Tristana. He should get a slight buff to E, increase the range and ad scaling on his W. I need to test out his items a bit more though! But disappointed he left so untouched.
: I feel like Vayne's Identity as a duelist is just as important as her role as a tank killer. Being able to survive laneing and turn the tables on the enemy ad is on of the most satisfying things about playing her. If she is marginalized into a niche role of killing tanks, I don't want to feel punished for picking her just because I want to play her. Taking away her dueling power vs other ADs and Mages makes her less fun to play. Killing tanks is great and all, but the most fun part about player her was the ability to effectively duel the champions that could take her out IMO. It looks like a lot of the AD's received a lot of buff/nerfs. This is great if your goal is to give AD's a more niche role, which is what it appears is the objective for many of the champion changes. However, it appeared to me the main gripe was that AD's as a whole were weak/underwhelming/easily dealt with as a whole and people were expecting mostly buffs in order to address that. While the changes presented are neat and add variety, I'm unsure if this issue/concern was addressed. However, it is difficult to judge without seeing the item/mastery changes, so speculating on champion changes alone is difficult to do.
I agreee, i thought vayne was a late game hyper carry/tank killer. Vaynes laning phase is difficult as she is the squishiest adc. One wrong move and you are dead usually. Think late game she should still delete squishies.


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