: Hey guys, Here to give you guys an update on a last minute change we're making to Garen before the patch release. We currently feel that Garen has retained too much of his mobility on top of the new strengths that we've given to the Juggernauts which is making him a bit too powerful along too many dimensions. Specifically, we feel his mobility uptime gets far too hard to deal with in the mid - late game especially once he gets ahead. Thus we are putting in a nerf to his Q Movement Speed duration. It's important to note that the Q Movement Speed duration has been inaccurate on PBE (it was 1.5 - 4.5 seconds instead of the tooltip-stated 2 - 4), so there is no actual change to his rank 1 MS besides the tooltip correction. We are making the following change: **Decisive Strike** * Movement Speed duration reduced to 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 seconds from 1.5/2.25/3/3.75/4.5 seconds I know it's not the happiest of news to the Garen mains out there, but we feel this is necessary to keep him in check.
QQ! Still looking forward to the patch
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Thank you for all of your hard work. I will be continuing to play him on PBE so I can get a feel for him before Live and I wholeheartedly appreciate your listening to all of our feedback and taking our concerns seriously. I think the state that he is now is interesting and I no longer feel quite so bad about this new classification of champion (Juggernaut). I hope new Garen meets the design goals you guys had in mind when introducing these new mechanics and that the effects positively influence the direction in which you guys see future design for champions to go in. Hope to catch you in a game sometime! {{champion:86}}
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=004e0000,timestamp=2015-08-07T03:21:28.578+0000) > > That comment was mostly about internal testing. Diamond/Master level testers that play with/as/against him every day are consistently saying he's a god right now. Could you go more in depth? How so is he a god? Does your internal testing team build the reccomended items on him? More definitions would be nice. :)
Yeah, it'd kind of be cool / informative if we could understand "why" he's strong and thus why you tweak in a certain way, but I understand if there's no time for that kinda thing!
: That comment was mostly about internal testing. Diamond/Master level testers that play with/as/against him every day are consistently saying he's a god right now.
I played a game and, yeah, he feels really freakin' strong right now. I can outduel most everyone except Mordekaiser right now (who is insane both because his player ghosts seem to be literally invincible right now, bug?) as long as they commit to fighting me. Outplayed an Ahri a few times! Even in a 2v1. I'll say this: for once I feel like, even when I'm in a position where I'm normally weak, His weaknesses against people with ranged autoattacks seem about the same so his early laning against characters that counter him still feels really unfun. It's just not hard to get rolling against other melee characters. I honestly have no real ideas on how to fix that discrepancy (strong v melee, cringe v ranged / spammy spells), nor am I sure that it's entirely necessary that it is fixed. Maybe he just needs to call for that gank and farm under tower like the rest of the cast. :) **RANDOM THOUGHT**: I severely, sincerely miss the Tenacity on W. Even taking 10% Tenacity in my masteries and putting on Mercury treads, any bit of CC -- even when I know it's coming and hit W to prepare for it -- wipes the floor with me. Too many characters have too many brutal ways of following up CC (Elise tore me a new one a few times). The Irelia matchup right now, for instance, is absurd because I can't begin to fight her again for like an hour after she hits her hour-long E. It used to be that if I read her using it by counting her cooldowns, and I thought that was interesting. Right now though the pattern just feels like "welp, better just try and melt her before she does Irelia Things™" instead of "maybe I can read her stun and mitigate some of it so that I can beat her up or force her to disengage instead". That's just one interaction though; in most every other case I'm kind of pushing fools into lockers if I'm not shut down. Thanks for being so receptive and for taking the time to run so many tweaks on these characters; Darius has been fun to watch (it almost seems like the changes are just really trying to "perfect" the new playstyle's feel) and Mordekaiser is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs strong right now. Garen feels like he's a few adjustments out from being in a really good place since the way you've set him up kind of feels like the same play patterns with more clearly defined ways around them, but much more strong as a result. I think a lot of my early resistance was because, since I focus so much on playing him, I really doubled down on developing a "style" of playing that champion, and large changes kind of shake that stability I felt I'd developed in terms of my own timings as to when to engage, how to engage, etc. -- right now I feel like the "new" Garen is in ways more interesting and in other ways a little weaker, but overall a lot stronger (the late game E is admittedly real terrifying).
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
WEIRD USABILITY NOTE: If you, like me, tend to keep right clicking on the enemy to move closer for Judgment to get into range, **your additional attack range means you stop moving and don't get closer to the enemy**. Suggesting a QoL fix that, as long as Judgment is on, trying to right click to auto-attack an enemy makes you move to them instead.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
I don't think we've done enough testing to figure out whether he's a late game monster or not. Ironically, Dead Man's Plate makes him **really scary** right now. I am gonna hop on now and play if you want to join!! EDIT: I'd recommend maybe returning the damage on spin to the previous values and remove one tick of spin at the back end but leaving it starting at 6? Every time you only tick 5 times, it feels really odd.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Thoughts: > Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for the character. The most noteworthy changes in here are probably the adjustments to Judgment. This direction for Judgment is aimed at adding optimization to the spell that really wasn't there before, in a way that isn't just Garen being slower. Edging enemies in lane and isolating opponents is intended to be that added optimization. This is a really interesting compromise that I can totally get behind. I like the idea that part of my lane mechanics to deal damage now are to ensure that I'm not tagging minions in lane, something I already wanted to kind of do to not accidentally push the wave but I am now even more encouraged to do by the promise of **additional damage**. This also is great because it gives clear windows in the laning phase for when I am best rewarded for attacking enemy champions that are ranged. It does make it feel more difficult for doing stuff like keeping enemies away from the wave when I'm zoning them out while ahead, but I'll have to feel out the changes a bit more here. > Additionally, I've added in some accommodation to using Q given the new attack range changes, so that Garen doesn't start Judgment at the edge of the spell's range. The funny thing is that you weren't even hitting Judgment at max range if you hit Q, and there are a lot of weird cases where, because of path finding, it was hard to convince Garen to move forward to make up the gap depending on where on the screen you clicked. It was really weird, especially when trying to jungle. LOL > Finally, W passive should require less mindshare and be less weird about when to rank it and how to stack it. The simplified version is now "kill things to get some defense. At 100 things (whatever they are), you're done." > Reduce some of the weirdness with the changed W passive. It isn't really intended that Garen feels like a champion that needs to invest heavily into 'farming up' a ton of minions (much moreso than other champions, anyway), but we do feel this W passive is a good direction for two main reasons: flat resistances synergize well with Health scaling that Garen has on his passive and other items, and as a champion recommended for beginners, it teaches some of the importance of farming. While I like that you're trying to tweak the way W works, the problem with how the new W passive works is entirely rooted around your ability to farm. While flat resistances are great when you're trying to build health and some of the new items, one of the cool parts of the old W was that it made purchasing resistances feel a lot more worth than it does now. To be honest, you'll have more of your less-itemized stat now overall if you only buy a single item in it (Mercury Treads as only MR item has you with more MR than before when not itemizing for MR at all), but there's nothing quite like buying Thornmail and it's worth a hell of a lot more in terms of how many resistances you get when buying it than before. That said, it's not exactly hard for a good subset of champions to deny Garen in the first place, so I'm exceedingly wary of any subsystem that is directly tied to your success in farming. We already have a subsystem that rewards you for last hitting -- it's called the item shop! > That said, I am actively thinking about a few relatively simple solutions to making W active just a bit more interesting in ways that don't undermine some of his intended weakness (like being peelable, for example). I contend, very vocally, that Garen is excessively peelable already because **he doesn't have a gap closer or hard CC**. You already made him easier to get away from and peelable when you reduced the amount of time his silence actually silenced you for. **Removing the tenacity from his W activation, which was a skill you had to make careful decisions about using, primarily impacts his ability to survive or to even give him a chance to get from point A to point B to even begin using his kit.** I feel that it isn't very hard to deal with Garen as long as you played him right in the first place. That said, tenacity is not the only way to impact survivability. There's an idea floating around for Perseverance (passive) to be re-activated at any time that Courage is active and to make it so that it cannot be deactivated throughout Courage's duration kind of makes it interesting. Heal your way through adversity! It's also stronger in the late game since Perseverance is stronger in the late game, and it's not so strong that it feels like you're emulating Dr. Mundo. Interested in seeing something like that, but also looking forward to some clever new stuff.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Played a bunch of games now on PBE and I have some feelings about the character. I will try to remain as positive as possible instead of being overwhelmingly negative, which is honestly not interesting to read nor is it helpful in any way. Instead, I'm speaking as someone who plays the character a lot and is interested in his long-term game health and viability. Here goes: It's not clear enough that W counts all your previous minion and monster kills towards its stat increase. I feel like if we're going to go this route altogether, where you're just going to get flat stats throughout your levels, then they should just outright move the stats to Garen's leveling up so that his stats increase better across the curve (increase his base stats by ~5 and give him a bunch more stats as he levels up instead). Honestly, W is completely uninteresting; someone suggested that activating it should immediately force Perseverance to activate, and that as long as W is active, Perseverance should also be active throughout its duration regardless of damage taken. That might make W a much more interesting skill and it would scale well into late game, since Perseverance already has scaling. His passive was already nerfed somewhat, anyways, so you might as well put it to use in situations other than out of combat, especially since Tenacity is gone. I think returning the Tenacity to Garen's W isn't that necessary, although I feel like it forces him to buy Mercury Treads almost every game. Also, I found that, because of the nature of my new Q and auto attack range, enemies were never inside of the range of E when I first silenced them simply because landing Q put them outside of the reach of it. I think if you want to keep E how it is, there's a way to compensate: **increase its area of effect by 50 units so that an enemy that has just been hit by Q or an auto attack is already in range of it when it is activated**. This will change the feel of Garen considerably; you won't "whiff" the first tick of Judgment anymore when you are pressing E immediately as the Q animation is going off. This will actually also make Garen control a little bit more space so there's more area around him which is dangerous to be in if you're trying to fight him in closed quarters. It also encourages Garen to try and close as much distance as possible on single targets to get adjacent to them before hitting E. It means there's a little bit more commitment by Garen to really stick to someone and it also means that more of the time of the silence (which has been shortened) is used to position Garen to maximize damage. Right now if I land Q, I HAVE to reposition by walking forward no matter what or I won't get any E damage whatsoever. With this change, if I'm trying to deal damage to someone particularly hard to kill, it's actually reasonable to deal more ticks of damage by betting that I've kept accurate track of cooldowns when I'm taking those couple of extra steps with Q to position closer to get more spin ticks in. Sterak's Gage felt OK on Garen. Just OK. Wasn't a huge fan, but I'm probably missing something. That said, Randuin's / Cinderhulk / Sterak's / Black Cleaver / Last Whisper was a pretty potent damage combination as long as people were stupid and let me do damage to them (which, to be fair, is not hard on PBE). I still wish there was an item other than BC that Judgment took advantage of. Again -- I spent a lot of thought between yesterday and today and also a lot of thinking about how to remove myself from being "aaaaa don't touch what I know" and instead thinking about what I think might be interesting changes. Here's what I came up with. My priority suggestions, then, are: - Base stats: +5 base armor / MR, per/level scaling improved to gain an additional ~17 total armor and MR at level 18 for a total of ~22 armor/MR moved from passive to kit. - Courage: (REMOVED) Armor/magic resistance passive buff. - Courage: (ADDED) When you activate Courage, Perseverance is also activated and remains active throughout the duration of Courage. - Judgment: (CHANGED): Range +50 units I would also consider: - Decisive Strike: (CHANGED) Silence scaling changed to 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2.0s - Judgment: (CHANGED) Movement speed debuff when moving towards an enemy you are hitting reduced to 15% I would also consider lowering the damage on Judgment just a slight bit if you go through with these to make up for its increased reliability. I would also fiercely consider some kind of item that builds out of Brutalizer, as Garen wants to build a CDR item and may not necessarily want to buy Spirit Visage every game as his MR big ticket item. It's still really sad that Sunfire is no longer a great idea on Garen. Randuin's is like the only armor item you ought to be buying. \#PrayForGaren
: > This change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you'll get to cast it more often, and there's also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn't relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now. Except you already deleted his sticking power from the silence duration and his tenacity. "The back half" of Judgement play is flat-out bull - even if you CDR half the duration, you're still sitting around with a thumb up your ass for several seconds doing absolutely nothing, while getting kited, while waiting for Decisive Strike to come off cooldown so you can finally start trying to run at the target to even have a chance at spinning on their face. Yes, I actually HAVE tried the new Garen. Theoretically you have that 5.5 Total AD ratio, but realistically you're losing at least two ticks to the slow, (now ~4.4 Total AD) on top of having his base damage horribly gutted. Which, annoyingly, ends up actually putting him at LESS damage in any not-full-glass build, and horribly loses out in Crit builds, especially ones that include Ghostblade (y'know, because Ghostblade has every stat Live Garen wants). By the way, "he was probably too sticky" is such an unbelievably wrong statement it honestly worries me. If Garen stands in a bush, has a solo, immobile champion walk up to is face, and spins on them, then yes he's sticky. For everything else, at least half his movespeed gets burnt on closing the gap, having more than one slow destroys Decisive Strike, Roots/Stuns still destroy him despite the tenacity, knockups can't be dealt with, and against full knockbacks you might as well not even try. Even without those, any vaguely mobile champion will just kite him to kingdom come. **The stickyness is completely and totally necessary because of the painfully awful time Garen has getting in range of anything to start spinning.** Another thing is that your slow ends up punishing Garen for being, uhhh, a teamfight Juggernaut. If he dives past the frontline and flashes on the squishy, he's getting auto peeled off them...and is also being prevented from getting himself back out of the fight because enemy Champions are in every direction. "But he can turn Judgement off!" Sweet, I too love doing zero damage in teamfights. It also isn't helping much because I kinda already blew Decisive Strike trying to get in here. Oh, and I can't really build Ghostblade any more so I literally can't do anything with my skills on CD. TL:DR The 20% self-slow when chasing is objectively stupid because he isn't sticky at all in not-1v1-situations, and he still has painfully awful gap closing potential. You already gutted his sticking power; you don't need to give him self-kiting too.
Funny thing is that, even if you weren't buying Ghostblade, you could do builds like IE / LW / BC / tanky and your regular autos at least chunked for a it, which is a lot of what you do when your skills are cooling down. I fully, 100% agree with you on Garen's need to be sticky because of how much of a hard time he has getting in in the first place.
: New Items - Sterak's Gage and Titanic Hydra
No love for the old bringing back of Executioner's idea? :)
: His overall stickiness should be lower, but his overall threat when on a target should be higher. Plus, he's probably just tankier overall, so he should last even longer in the thick of things.
He's not quite so tanky. Part of Garen's tankiness is the fact that he can get away from damage if he has to; part of that was being able to move because tenacity was a thing. A lot of decisions mid-game for me as a Garen player are whether I'm going to double down on trying to really kill someone despite the fact it may cost me my life, but enabling my team to win a teamfight in the aftermath VS peeling away and distracting enemies by fleeing to buy myself (and my squad) some time in a fight.
: You called that right... Low level E just feels bad, like real bad. The damage ticks are just way too slow compared to what I've known for literal years. It really starts feeling good later on, but it's still just off. I can literally time out each tick of the spin in my head as it is on live due to how iconic it is to me, however this is not something I'm going to lose sleep over. I'll get used to it eventually. And the ult... thing... feels a bit too random for me. I spent my last game running back and forth across the map and either not getting into a good ganking position before the enemy was out of range (backed after killing, or dead) or it had changed to someone else. The bonus damage on E feels great, and the ult damage is amazing, but the auto attack damage might as well not even be there. Surprisingly the Q actually feels stronger. I don't know if they changed the ratio or not (doesn't seem like it above) but it feels so much stronger than on the live servers. It might just be with me experimenting with items and skill paths however. W feels exactly the same, as well as his passive. I know that's not really feedback, but during play I've noticed no change from it. Well done. As for the items I'm not a fan. Against squishy targets the new items are amazing of course, however against someone in a lane situation they are a clear noob trap. Garen needs resistances now more than ever, and while he does fine early/mid game with health items he falls off of a cliff come late game. Depending on how the items get changed from now until they hit live Garen might need some extra work done on his W, or else these items just don't seem like they will work. The next game I play I'm going back to my usual live Garen build to see if that feels any better.
He doesn't feel much better with my mostly-main Garen build right now. Q feels stronger because it has more range. Garen in general has more range. The only positive thing they gave Garen that you immediately feel is that he can auto from a little farther, which feels actually kinda nice.
: As a Garen main since season 1 a few of these changes really worried me, however after reading through all your replies here I feel like I understand why they were made. The W resistance stacking is definitely going to need some tweaking, and the silence nerf does still worry me, but I definitely trust you guys to make Garen feel right by the time these changes go live. Keep up the good work!
I would say try the changes out right now instead of just trusting. If you're a Garen main, you are going to feel really, really strange.
: First off, thanks for the thoughtful post (formatting much appreciated!). > too heavy-handed? 2.5s in the mid-to-late game (you max Q second, usually) was about right, especially considering the trouble you usually have catching people; certain matchups where Garen was actually a decent counter are probably going to swing hard in the other direction now because you can't stop their shenanigans; Maybe it is, but I think 1.5 seconds still feels pretty substantial. If, for some reason, it's too short, it could maybe bump upward a bit. > Courage change: didn't we move away from the "farm yourself to become strong" feature because it was really weird and obtuse? Now I need to farm 50 minions properly just to get to 10 armor. 10!! And I have to skill this up if I want it to be any good, and leveling it up doesn't make it increase any faster. Yikes. This seems like a pretty huge nerf considering you also hit him in the health per level department. I also absolutely hate the active tenacity component having been removed. The flat Armor/MR model actually makes more sense in a world where Garen wants to build a lot of Health items (which he should have readily available to him in this patch). I think you may be right that it takes too long to farm currently, though. I'll keep an eye out for that. This shouldn't be too much of a nerf, since the Health items coming this patch (Sterak's Gage, Ravenous Hydra, Warmog's update, etc.) should allow him to build an abundance of Health and get more of what he needs in fewer items. I totally understand not liking the Tenacity nerf, but we do feel it's important that Tanks and CC-heavy supports feel good about their efforts to peel the big tanky dudes running at their teams. > the whole spinning faster as you get higher level is an adorable way to give it better scaling into the late game, but I feel like this kind of forces him into the land of flat armor penetration on him now -- of which we don't have a lot. Hopefully armor being worse all across the board means this skill has become better altogether. This skill also has a 5.5 Total AD ratio in the late game, so I don't think it's only amped by Penetration. Black Cleaver should be even better on him now, due to the higher AD ratio, as well as the fact that he'll stack the passive faster due to the increased tick rate of Judgment. > Why in God's name do I move slower when I spin towards people I'm hitting?? Is he somehow too sticky now? This change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you'll get to cast it more often, and there's also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn't relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now. > I am going to play him a lot these next few days and I'll report on how I feel about it given some time, but PBE is not a great testing environment because of the level of play, so even if I felt like things got a lot better, I wouldn't actually be sure. I main Garen and play him constantly, so I'm probably a little biased, but I also feel like I've figured his play patterns out enough as he is now that I don't like the sound of how certain things are put together... I'd definitely appreciate an update when you've had a chance to check it out. I definitely understand your concerns, so if you get a chance to check it out and see which nerfs were the most painful and which weren't quite as big a deal, that would be awesome information, especially from a Garen main.
Bulletin board points on Garen to summarize my feelings on him right now: **His weaknesses are more glaring, so his strengths feel more irrelevant.** - More kitable than before --- E slow is too brutal; being able to stick to someone is far more valuable than bursty damage and it was already hard trying to get that close in the first place - Doesn't live anywhere as long to deal his damage anymore --- Not having tenacity on W greatly inhibits his ability to take damage when needed to tank and to try and make ANY kind of aggressive play when enemy team can kite - W being tied to a farm system penalizes Garen severely when behind / unable to farm --- Tying W's subsystem to farm is already obtuse; **we moved away from this kind of W on purpose, no reason to return to it!** - Silence is a much less reliable form of contributing to teamfights than before --- Q got touched the least so it has the least comments, really - E changes remove item flexibility on Garen --- Youmuu is now an item he sometimes wants to buy, but wastes too many stats --- Too many items already exist that Garen would love to buy if the stats didn't make it a waste (Frozen Heart, Sheen-based items, Righteous Glory) - Villain system is unique, but pointless --- "Quest" feature doesn't actually enhance what you might want to be doing in game (bullying lane, denying farm, split pushing, flanking) that might be beneficial; it's just a random damage bonus to a person who is doing well --- No other bonus is given VS villains, so it feels ultimately pointless / unnoticeable --- Having more damage VS a target makes whether Garen succeeds or fails in landing a kill on a villain really binary; either I got the jump on you and blew you up or you got away --- Feels strong when you do eventually blow someone up, but feels like a cop out -- why can't I just contribute to a fight the "regular way," by being strong and picking my targets and applying my silence to the right target and singling enemies out? Instead my contribution is "I can blow this dude up, woo" - Ult dealing true damage against certain opponents (Villain) is a cute idea but ultimately unnecessary --- Garen isn't Darius and shouldn't have to measure his identity against his, even if they're considered two sides of a coin - The "juggernaut" character type feels muddled; why is it necessary and what niche is it meant to fill? --- Right now it reads like "basically, imagine a champion that sucks at being a fighter, bruiser or tank" --- New itemization doesn't help anywhere as much as you'd think I almost feel like, at this point, you should give Garen some goddamn mana so that he can buy real items and just make his skills all better instead of these bizarre compromises. At least then he'll be gated by cooldowns and mana, which will massacre his identity, but at least give you room to work with these design levers. I hate the new Garen.
: Played a game. I've never played a game of Garen where I felt like I never, ever wanted to bother trying to trade in lane against Nasus. That's depressing. You are not sticky enough, ever. A technique I used when trying to chase people out of position was to set up to the side of minions and E my way past so the Black Cleaver boost would help me close gaps, then use Q when that wasn't available or to break slows. I can't do that right now, so most of the cast that barely outran me or that I could sometimes catch to force the issue before basically outruns me forever now, so I spend a lot of my time in game Not Fighting™, which is horrible. Garen already had trouble catching people and had to build and sacrifice certain rune spots or item selections to be able to Get Fast and catch dudes, but now I can't do that because I'm better off auto attacking if I want to stick to someone. That's so disheartening. When am I going to use E, when I'm in a huge teamfight where I'm going to not be able to soak enough damage and die fast? ADCs are now basically invulnerable to me unless they're doing Really Well™, at which point my band-aid ult system lets me take care of them because I can't take care of them the old fashioned way, by just making the right decision on when to go in, when to back off and when to hit my skills. Garen was already getting peeled real easy with a tiny amount of CC because he has no gap closer other than Flash (which is not a real gap closer), so the Tenacity being gone from W is felt **incredibly badly**. I don't hate the farming mechanic in W that much because it seems to "know" how much you've farmed throughout the game, so you level it up and immediately get the stat boost. I don't understand why we use this D&D 4th Edition-style math fix (ayy weapon expertise) and not just move Garen's stats to his actual base stats and make W more interesting as a result. I am not enjoying this at all. I guess spinning fast is cool.
Second game. Right runes this time. Judgment is awful. I fought a Darius, though, and I noticed that I can see his Q now. LMAO. That matchup used to be free for Darius and now I basically destroy him. Or I would, you know, except I maybe get 2 ticks of Judgment on him in lane and it's only if he just lets me walk in close and whiffs a Q entirely. How am I supposed to deal any damage to a Kennen that hits his speed up before I Q? Vayne is now absolutely uncatchable without Flash. She used to be able to tumble kite you really badly and now it's just full on lmao status. Doesn't matter if I'm 3 levels ahead. Good stuff. I rarely get to use the Villain mechanic and I honestly wish it'd go away and anything else that was more interesting was in its stead. It was amusing game one, and now it's just "great, arbitrarily selected villain -- that's sure useful when the focus of my gameplan right now is to deny this dude really hard in lane". It's hard not to sound saltier and more negative with each post, but even as I'm stomping (people on PBE aren't exactly competition), I'm seeing the problems left and right. I'm also not having a lot of fun. LOL at trying to spin at people with like 330 movement speed.
: First off, thanks for the thoughtful post (formatting much appreciated!). > too heavy-handed? 2.5s in the mid-to-late game (you max Q second, usually) was about right, especially considering the trouble you usually have catching people; certain matchups where Garen was actually a decent counter are probably going to swing hard in the other direction now because you can't stop their shenanigans; Maybe it is, but I think 1.5 seconds still feels pretty substantial. If, for some reason, it's too short, it could maybe bump upward a bit. > Courage change: didn't we move away from the "farm yourself to become strong" feature because it was really weird and obtuse? Now I need to farm 50 minions properly just to get to 10 armor. 10!! And I have to skill this up if I want it to be any good, and leveling it up doesn't make it increase any faster. Yikes. This seems like a pretty huge nerf considering you also hit him in the health per level department. I also absolutely hate the active tenacity component having been removed. The flat Armor/MR model actually makes more sense in a world where Garen wants to build a lot of Health items (which he should have readily available to him in this patch). I think you may be right that it takes too long to farm currently, though. I'll keep an eye out for that. This shouldn't be too much of a nerf, since the Health items coming this patch (Sterak's Gage, Ravenous Hydra, Warmog's update, etc.) should allow him to build an abundance of Health and get more of what he needs in fewer items. I totally understand not liking the Tenacity nerf, but we do feel it's important that Tanks and CC-heavy supports feel good about their efforts to peel the big tanky dudes running at their teams. > the whole spinning faster as you get higher level is an adorable way to give it better scaling into the late game, but I feel like this kind of forces him into the land of flat armor penetration on him now -- of which we don't have a lot. Hopefully armor being worse all across the board means this skill has become better altogether. This skill also has a 5.5 Total AD ratio in the late game, so I don't think it's only amped by Penetration. Black Cleaver should be even better on him now, due to the higher AD ratio, as well as the fact that he'll stack the passive faster due to the increased tick rate of Judgment. > Why in God's name do I move slower when I spin towards people I'm hitting?? Is he somehow too sticky now? This change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you'll get to cast it more often, and there's also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn't relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now. > I am going to play him a lot these next few days and I'll report on how I feel about it given some time, but PBE is not a great testing environment because of the level of play, so even if I felt like things got a lot better, I wouldn't actually be sure. I main Garen and play him constantly, so I'm probably a little biased, but I also feel like I've figured his play patterns out enough as he is now that I don't like the sound of how certain things are put together... I'd definitely appreciate an update when you've had a chance to check it out. I definitely understand your concerns, so if you get a chance to check it out and see which nerfs were the most painful and which weren't quite as big a deal, that would be awesome information, especially from a Garen main.
Played a game. I've never played a game of Garen where I felt like I never, ever wanted to bother trying to trade in lane against Nasus. That's depressing. You are not sticky enough, ever. A technique I used when trying to chase people out of position was to set up to the side of minions and E my way past so the Black Cleaver boost would help me close gaps, then use Q when that wasn't available or to break slows. I can't do that right now, so most of the cast that barely outran me or that I could sometimes catch to force the issue before basically outruns me forever now, so I spend a lot of my time in game Not Fighting™, which is horrible. Garen already had trouble catching people and had to build and sacrifice certain rune spots or item selections to be able to Get Fast and catch dudes, but now I can't do that because I'm better off auto attacking if I want to stick to someone. That's so disheartening. When am I going to use E, when I'm in a huge teamfight where I'm going to not be able to soak enough damage and die fast? ADCs are now basically invulnerable to me unless they're doing Really Well™, at which point my band-aid ult system lets me take care of them because I can't take care of them the old fashioned way, by just making the right decision on when to go in, when to back off and when to hit my skills. Garen was already getting peeled real easy with a tiny amount of CC because he has no gap closer other than Flash (which is not a real gap closer), so the Tenacity being gone from W is felt **incredibly badly**. I don't hate the farming mechanic in W that much because it seems to "know" how much you've farmed throughout the game, so you level it up and immediately get the stat boost. I don't understand why we use this D&D 4th Edition-style math fix (ayy weapon expertise) and not just move Garen's stats to his actual base stats and make W more interesting as a result. I am not enjoying this at all. I guess spinning fast is cool.
: First off, thanks for the thoughtful post (formatting much appreciated!). > too heavy-handed? 2.5s in the mid-to-late game (you max Q second, usually) was about right, especially considering the trouble you usually have catching people; certain matchups where Garen was actually a decent counter are probably going to swing hard in the other direction now because you can't stop their shenanigans; Maybe it is, but I think 1.5 seconds still feels pretty substantial. If, for some reason, it's too short, it could maybe bump upward a bit. > Courage change: didn't we move away from the "farm yourself to become strong" feature because it was really weird and obtuse? Now I need to farm 50 minions properly just to get to 10 armor. 10!! And I have to skill this up if I want it to be any good, and leveling it up doesn't make it increase any faster. Yikes. This seems like a pretty huge nerf considering you also hit him in the health per level department. I also absolutely hate the active tenacity component having been removed. The flat Armor/MR model actually makes more sense in a world where Garen wants to build a lot of Health items (which he should have readily available to him in this patch). I think you may be right that it takes too long to farm currently, though. I'll keep an eye out for that. This shouldn't be too much of a nerf, since the Health items coming this patch (Sterak's Gage, Ravenous Hydra, Warmog's update, etc.) should allow him to build an abundance of Health and get more of what he needs in fewer items. I totally understand not liking the Tenacity nerf, but we do feel it's important that Tanks and CC-heavy supports feel good about their efforts to peel the big tanky dudes running at their teams. > the whole spinning faster as you get higher level is an adorable way to give it better scaling into the late game, but I feel like this kind of forces him into the land of flat armor penetration on him now -- of which we don't have a lot. Hopefully armor being worse all across the board means this skill has become better altogether. This skill also has a 5.5 Total AD ratio in the late game, so I don't think it's only amped by Penetration. Black Cleaver should be even better on him now, due to the higher AD ratio, as well as the fact that he'll stack the passive faster due to the increased tick rate of Judgment. > Why in God's name do I move slower when I spin towards people I'm hitting?? Is he somehow too sticky now? This change is intended to improve play during the back half of Judment. Keep in mind, the cooldown of this spell is lower, so you'll get to cast it more often, and there's also a cooldown incentive to turning it off early if the enemy has escaped it, meaning it will become available to cast even sooner. He does a significant amount more damage now, and he was probably too sticky to merit it. Garen was allowed to have that level of stickiness before because his damage just wasn't relevant in the later stages of the game most often, but it should be now. > I am going to play him a lot these next few days and I'll report on how I feel about it given some time, but PBE is not a great testing environment because of the level of play, so even if I felt like things got a lot better, I wouldn't actually be sure. I main Garen and play him constantly, so I'm probably a little biased, but I also feel like I've figured his play patterns out enough as he is now that I don't like the sound of how certain things are put together... I'd definitely appreciate an update when you've had a chance to check it out. I definitely understand your concerns, so if you get a chance to check it out and see which nerfs were the most painful and which weren't quite as big a deal, that would be awesome information, especially from a Garen main.
I'm afraid my feedback won't be very good because I don't have a chance to test Garen against skilled players. You won't get great feedback for a while. MarineRevenge made a huge post on the League subreddit that got canned that I am going to reproduce here for you. He's a lot more "the end is near!" about it, but I actually am reading over the changes more and more and I'm more and more confused. By the way, Garen was never particularly sticky. He was "sticky" because he could silence you to make sure he was sticky, but with the reduction of silence it's now pretty easy to just get away from him. There's a billion ways to peel Garen in the game and he does not have a gap closer. In a world where his silence no longer exists, the 20% movement penalty to move towards enemies is actually patently insane. It also absolutely kills his ability to effectively trade in lane. Cleaver can't even make up the deficit of movement speed that you'll lose! Again, the entire reason why the Cleaver change was beautiful was because it let me, as a Garen player, kind of force the issue: are you going to make the decision to be near me for some reason? Are you trying to get farm when I'm ahead? Cleaver let me punish bad positioning by letting me stay on top of people, and while I understand that you want to mitigate that fact since Judgment ticks so much more now, I don't understand the need for so much change. I still the biggest impact of farm = stats is that bad matchups are now decidedly worse, especially considering you hit him really hard in survivability. It's actually really baffling because Darius got a lot of buffs to his stats instead, and he was already wildly oppressive in lane. I'm exceedingly confused. I'm loading up PBE now.
: I have thoughts! I am **so sorry** about this huge wall of text. **Attack range buff**: holy sh-- listen, this is good, but I don't know how worth moving this lever is when I see the rest of the changes. Let me elaborate! **Passive nerf**: I mean, I was waiting for it. **Silence nerf**: too heavy-handed? 2.5s in the mid-to-late game (you max Q second, usually) was about right, especially considering the trouble you usually have catching people; certain matchups where Garen was actually a decent counter are probably going to swing hard in the other direction now because you can't stop their shenanigans; meanwhile, Cho'gath still has a long-as-hell, near-instant cast AoE silence. See: Riven, Renekton... **Courage change**: didn't we move away from the "farm yourself to become strong" feature because it was really weird and obtuse? Now I need to farm 50 minions properly just to get to 10 armor. 10!! And I have to skill this up if I want it to be any good, and leveling it up doesn't make it increase any faster. Yikes. This seems like a pretty huge nerf considering you also hit him in the health per level department. I also absolutely hate the active tenacity component having been removed. **I kind of feel like this skill got put in the goddamn dumpster.** If it's not going to give me any armor or magic resist passively anymore, and it's only going to level up when I farm, it ALMOST encourages me to not level it up at level 4 anymore. What for? I feel like doubling down on damage is more important in lane at this point. The only interesting thing on it anymore is the damage reduction, and the duration is too short for me to be spending skill points on it. If you were aiming to make the skill any more interesting than it was before, then that's definitely failed. It's always been a one-point wonder, and there's never a reason to max it first (you're TRYING to play Garen to fight, right? And you're melee? So you want to survive long enough to do something?) What is wrong with this skill now? You could've made the skill do 10%/12.5%/15%/17.5%/20% bonus armor / MR as you skill it up, and it would've been a better nerf. Tying it to farm is... really obtuse, especially since you hit his durability in all these other departments (Tenacity, Passive, lower health). A small lever adjustment on armor per level sounds great until you realize it's 1 armor per 3 levels. Come on. Again, I feel like a lot of changes were made to hit Garen in the durability department and to try and not make him a "ball of stats," but when you overload on a lot of changes downward on a character who has to get up close to be efficient, and there's not that much improvement in other areas... Seriously. The changes to W encompass a good deal of my major concerns, especially when Shyvana's still running around with a skill that acts like a magic damage version of Garen's E that also makes her faster and that she can still auto-attack in the midst of, and she also gets really tanky because she just gets free stats for existing (and even more for turning into a BIG DARGON), and still deals a ton of damage. God damn. **Judgment changes**: the whole spinning faster as you get higher level is an adorable way to give it better scaling into the late game, but I feel like this kind of forces him into the land of flat armor penetration on him now -- of which we don't have a lot. Hopefully armor being worse all across the board means this skill has become better altogether. Why in God's name do I move slower when I spin towards people I'm hitting?? Are we just forcing me to buy Black Cleaver and Alacrity no matter what, always? Spinning through minions already made it really awkward to chase people and I already need to use Flash offensively **all the time** to try and get kills. Removing the weird minion slowdown was a pretty good idea. The entire reason Black Cleaver is so good on him now is because it makes spin more reliable, and it feels like this is a direct hit on that. Why? Is he somehow too sticky now? Are we afraid running fast is mobility creep now? You already took a dump on his active tenacity, so it's not like you're going to see a hell of a lot of swiftness boots anymore; mercury treads are going to feel mandatory to survive any kind of big CC, and focused CC already blows Garen up. What exactly does this accomplish? **Villain system**: this is interesting! I'll have to play around with it, but I am not married to the idea that I'm just really strong against one person at any given time. That said, this is the change I'm most looking forward to seeing work. I am going to play him a lot these next few days and I'll report on how I feel about it given some time, but PBE is not a great testing environment because of the level of play, so even if I felt like things got a lot better, I wouldn't actually be sure. I main Garen and play him constantly, so I'm probably a little biased, but I also feel like I've figured his play patterns out enough as he is now that I don't like the sound of how certain things are put together...
Edited for formatting. Hope Repertoir does not gawk at the size of this post and gloss over. Garen's my main and, while I agree that Overtuning Isn't Fun™ (when Sion was broken, it was hilarious, but not particularly satisfying to play), and I don't want to see Garen curbstomp everyone into the pavement, I don't think gutting a skill so severely that it's useless is the right direction to go. Especially when we return to a really antiquated and weird way of doing things (farming your W). Remember: having something require farm/kills makes bad matchups where Garen's easily denied access to farm **a lot worse**. Garen's huge problem was already that he had a bunch of bad matchups. Don't make those worse!!
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
I have thoughts! I am **so sorry** about this huge wall of text. **Attack range buff**: holy sh-- listen, this is good, but I don't know how worth moving this lever is when I see the rest of the changes. Let me elaborate! **Passive nerf**: I mean, I was waiting for it. **Silence nerf**: too heavy-handed? 2.5s in the mid-to-late game (you max Q second, usually) was about right, especially considering the trouble you usually have catching people; certain matchups where Garen was actually a decent counter are probably going to swing hard in the other direction now because you can't stop their shenanigans; meanwhile, Cho'gath still has a long-as-hell, near-instant cast AoE silence. See: Riven, Renekton... **Courage change**: didn't we move away from the "farm yourself to become strong" feature because it was really weird and obtuse? Now I need to farm 50 minions properly just to get to 10 armor. 10!! And I have to skill this up if I want it to be any good, and leveling it up doesn't make it increase any faster. Yikes. This seems like a pretty huge nerf considering you also hit him in the health per level department. I also absolutely hate the active tenacity component having been removed. **I kind of feel like this skill got put in the goddamn dumpster.** If it's not going to give me any armor or magic resist passively anymore, and it's only going to level up when I farm, it ALMOST encourages me to not level it up at level 4 anymore. What for? I feel like doubling down on damage is more important in lane at this point. The only interesting thing on it anymore is the damage reduction, and the duration is too short for me to be spending skill points on it. If you were aiming to make the skill any more interesting than it was before, then that's definitely failed. It's always been a one-point wonder, and there's never a reason to max it first (you're TRYING to play Garen to fight, right? And you're melee? So you want to survive long enough to do something?) What is wrong with this skill now? You could've made the skill do 10%/12.5%/15%/17.5%/20% bonus armor / MR as you skill it up, and it would've been a better nerf. Tying it to farm is... really obtuse, especially since you hit his durability in all these other departments (Tenacity, Passive, lower health). A small lever adjustment on armor per level sounds great until you realize it's 1 armor per 3 levels. Come on. Again, I feel like a lot of changes were made to hit Garen in the durability department and to try and not make him a "ball of stats," but when you overload on a lot of changes downward on a character who has to get up close to be efficient, and there's not that much improvement in other areas... Seriously. The changes to W encompass a good deal of my major concerns, especially when Shyvana's still running around with a skill that acts like a magic damage version of Garen's E that also makes her faster and that she can still auto-attack in the midst of, and she also gets really tanky because she just gets free stats for existing (and even more for turning into a BIG DARGON), and still deals a ton of damage. God damn. **Judgment changes**: the whole spinning faster as you get higher level is an adorable way to give it better scaling into the late game, but I feel like this kind of forces him into the land of flat armor penetration on him now -- of which we don't have a lot. Hopefully armor being worse all across the board means this skill has become better altogether. Why in God's name do I move slower when I spin towards people I'm hitting?? Are we just forcing me to buy Black Cleaver and Alacrity no matter what, always? Spinning through minions already made it really awkward to chase people and I already need to use Flash offensively **all the time** to try and get kills. Removing the weird minion slowdown was a pretty good idea. The entire reason Black Cleaver is so good on him now is because it makes spin more reliable, and it feels like this is a direct hit on that. Why? Is he somehow too sticky now? Are we afraid running fast is mobility creep now? You already took a dump on his active tenacity, so it's not like you're going to see a hell of a lot of swiftness boots anymore; mercury treads are going to feel mandatory to survive any kind of big CC, and focused CC already blows Garen up. What exactly does this accomplish? **Villain system**: this is interesting! I'll have to play around with it, but I am not married to the idea that I'm just really strong against one person at any given time. That said, this is the change I'm most looking forward to seeing work. I am going to play him a lot these next few days and I'll report on how I feel about it given some time, but PBE is not a great testing environment because of the level of play, so even if I felt like things got a lot better, I wouldn't actually be sure. I main Garen and play him constantly, so I'm probably a little biased, but I also feel like I've figured his play patterns out enough as he is now that I don't like the sound of how certain things are put together...
: That... might actually work. No promises (and definitely no timeline - item work takes a lot longer than you might think given how much even relatively small item changes impact the game), but I'll talk to some people about it.
I fully understand! These things take a lot of time (trust me, _I know_), but I just like brainstorming sometimes. Funny story: I was wondering why it took so long for someone to make a Phage derivative that gave movement speed on physical damage. It seems like such a logical item that would help characters like Garen immediately. (I play a lot of Garen.)
: Let's talk about The Black Cleaver
Hey! You know what item we've kind of been missing? Executioner's Calling used to be the only item that placed a heal debuff on enemies that AD-focused characters could build, and those characters can't buy that item anymore. What other way do AD characters have to deal with heal-based sustain other than "deal way more damage than the enemy can handle"? Why not make an iteration of EC that builds out of Brutalizer to fill in the Brutalizer gap now that the only viable item would once again be Youmuu's?
: They're not changing Flash, so that's why it's not being listed in the changelog.
: New Summoner Spells & Masteries on the PBE (10/31/2013)

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