Rioter Comments
: This is extremely close-minded of you. "Riot shouldn't experiment with outdated champion kits because there's that 1% of the players who main said champion and that's a whopping 1% play rate in each individual's games". Nothing RIot does will receive 100% praises. People who don't want to see MF will cry when she gets a buff, people who want to see MF will cry when she gets a nerf and old fossils who take pride in owning MF from her release but not actually playing her will cry when she gets a rework - claiming that they absolutely adored her kit. Let me tell you something about MF (as someone who played her in 30% of my ranked games) - she isn't in a good place. Her rework (The Burning Tides) made me feel ecstatic that i could pick her up again but she still feels off. I'd say that this adjustment to her kit was well overdue and it has me both excited and horrified. Excited that she has a new passive and horrified that her base stats are dumpstered for the sake of that skill. And reading this thread only puts me in a bad mood because maybe you people are playing MF incorrectly? She was never a true AA marksman (like Vayne, for example) but she was more caster-ish marskman. Someone who weaves in spells and AAs for maximized damage. I still need to try her out and i'll do this today so i can have my opinion on this board, at least a more positive one - and not for the sake of balancing it out but because i played MF in 30% of my ranked games so i feel like i can explore a bit more options than Vayne Maynes. **TL;DR** KEEP CALM AND BRING BIG GUNS {{champion:21}}
I never mained MF mainly because she did not feel like she could carry, at least I could not carry with her. Maybe I am not playing her "properly", as a caster marksman interweaving all my spells (I do some, but not optimal), meaning I have something to learn. At the end of the day, I am particularly excited for this rework because I feel I CAN carry with her with this new kit, it works with how I like to play marksman.
: > [{quoted}](name=manac4nnon,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=004c0001,timestamp=2015-11-05T01:56:20.293+0000) > > I totally disagree. Lets just take a few things you said and look at them. > > 1. MF's fantasy is raining torrents of bullets onto MANY targets > 2. MF is rewarded for applying damage to multiple targets (because of Love Tap) > Therefore: > 3. It's rather backward logic to have MF be punished for focusing a target > > How is #2 not meeting the fantasy of #1 exactly? She is rewarded for MANY targets with Love Tap and she can rain down torrents through the increased attack speed on Strut. Sure, her single target damage is down, but that makes sense with her "raining torrents of bullets onto many targets", does it not? > > From the point of view of "the ADC must focus one target at a time, criting them into oblivion" the MF changes do not make much sense. I think you, and apparently many people, are stuck in that point of view and should come into the (bullet filled) light and see all of the (bullet filled) glory that is the new MF kit. > > Just my 2 cents (or raining torrents of cents). :D 2 isn't meeting the fantasy of 1, because it isn't rewarding her, so much as it is punishing her for not doing so. To quote **Egaraptor** (his opinions on many things aside) : _"It's like if you were to put me in a sand box, and tell me I can only make poopy castles"_ A reward is an added incentive to do something. It shouldn't be a "I have to do it" so much as a "I should be doing it". Whats more, by essentially splitting her DPS between 2 targets, you aren't so much raining bullets on your opponents as you are shooting more powerful bullets at 2 (or more) different people. It isn't so much that the adc must focus one target at a time and crit them into oblivion, so much as it being a problem that the Marksman cannot even remotely do so and is actively punished for trying when it becomes necessary to. This applies not only to fighting other champions, but taking objectives. I understand as an ADC main, you are enthralled by having more toys to play with, but I think it is important that you remember that it is coming at the expense of others. Make a new champ just like this and truly flesh it out. You won't hear people complain.
I think that... is a really good point. Not the poopy castles part, but the part that a reward is for encouraging something you are already doing. And sure, I will grant you that I am an ADC playing with a new toy and all its shininess. I do not agree with the "expense of others" part, but I do think I understand a little more of where you are coming from. I think it is also fair to say a new champ with this pattern would have less, if any, stigma around the new mechanic. At the end of the day, I think I am open to seeing things, even in ways I do not like, to have a net betterment of a champ. Maybe its a best of two evils thing, but I would rather have a champ I love (Jinx) get fundamentally changed (say, no more minigun attack speed boost) if that opens up new avenues for that champ and other players to have a net better game and to keep that champ up to date with the increasingly improving lineup of League. Again, good points, something I will have to think on further.
: Cass' update was in the same patch that Azir was in. I understand that they might have wanted to see how he worked out before doing more experimental changes, it's still inexcusable for them to make changes to her, realize it wasn't what they wanted, and then ignore her for seven months.
I don't disagree that the Cass update is taking "too long". However, Riot has a lot of design debt around older champions, Cass included, and can only update so many at a time. The order in which they hit these champions is based on their all knowing power of what is best, and each person has their own thoughts on priority orders, you an me included. At the end of the day, what I think is the real problem that people are frustrated with is that there are too many things to work on, and that manifests as "you didn't get to champ X fast enough". A reasonable sentiment, but one that Riot is trying their damndest to solve but that solution takes time, a lot of time. Personally, I am frustrated with people being frustrated with Riot. I think they are doing a great job with the situation they have. Should they have gotten into the situation? Probably not. But now that we are here, I think they are overall addressing the problems well and getting better with each iteration. PS. I am not just addressing you, but everyone that is frustrated with Riot and their champ updates. You are simply giving me a soapbox to say my piece with. So thank for discussing with me! Back to you.
: I agree with everything except that last part. The _idea_ isn't bad. The problem is the _execution_. It was rather half baked. Instead of rewarding and encouraging her to apply damage to multiple targets, this simply splits her attention and her DPS, punishing her for daring to attack the same target ever. It's rather backwards logic and makes MF feel handicapped in so many situations. The MissFortune fantasy is (or should be) that of raining torrents of bullet hell onto many opponents. LoveTap currently not only fails to help strengthen this identity, but it actually works against it.
I totally disagree. Lets just take a few things you said and look at them. 1. MF's fantasy is raining torrents of bullets onto MANY targets 2. MF is rewarded for applying damage to multiple targets (because of Love Tap) Therefore: 3. It's rather backward logic to have MF be punished for focusing a target How is #2 not meeting the fantasy of #1 exactly? She is rewarded for MANY targets with Love Tap and she can rain down torrents through the increased attack speed on Strut. Sure, her single target damage is down, but that makes sense with her "raining torrents of bullets onto many targets", does it not? From the point of view of "the ADC must focus one target at a time, criting them into oblivion" the MF changes do not make much sense. I think you, and apparently many people, are stuck in that point of view and should come into the (bullet filled) light and see all of the (bullet filled) glory that is the new MF kit. Just my 2 cents (or raining torrents of cents). :D
: Even ignoring the question of whether you'll keep your intent (I imagine Stashu had every intent of following up on Cass, too. Look what happened), why do you experiment and explore new grounds on existing champs, instead doing it with new champs that no one has any opinion on and that won't anger existing mains? Or even just existing 'I play this champ occasionally' people.
They have had huge experiments with every new champ starting with Azir (I can build a tower on the ruins of a tower). With the juggernaut update, and now the marksmen update, they are seeing if they can apply the same kinds of experimental ideas to older champions to make the current roster more diverse. This is them actually acting on the fact that they are committed to keeping all champions up to date and relevant as opposed to only working on new champions and letting older champions become obsolete. However, to do things at the level of quality that we (and they) expect takes time, lots of time. Thus, they cannot get to every champ (Cass) as soon as they (or we) want them to.
: **1.** Yes, it certainly happens and is apparent at level 6, And yes it counts total AD, but due to MF's severe base AD and growth nerfs (which I really feel are overkill), it doesn't even come close to mattering. It still leads to a net under performing ult at level 6. The max potential damage of her ult at later ranks is a straight buff, but that total damage is now spread across a longer duration and over more waves, meaning the enemy has far more time to get out leading to it feeling "weaker". Basically, doing 200 damage in 3 seconds "feels" stronger than doing 600 over 7 seconds, and in most situations is more reliable too. I understand and agree with the idea and decision to extend its time in order to put more emphasis on it, but maybe cut a wave or 2 and 0.5 seconds off of it in order to put more damage per wave? It would make it feel more effective overall. **2. ** I agree 100% with keeping MF's weaknesses in tact. She should be properly punished for bad positioning and being low in terms of mobility and CC is part of her core design. This is part of why LoveTap bothers me though, as it encourages bad positioning by making her have to attack another target, usually being in a bad place, actively punishing her for either doing so, or by punishing her for not doing so as she can't damage anything beyond the first auto attack. It sends mixed messages to the player and about how MF is supposed to operate. **_ "As far as her dueling potential goes, yes MF will be a worse duelist in a brute force scenario, but she should absolutely dominate in other ones."_** If I may be so bold, may I be told of situations where she dominates outside of using her ultimate? There is laning phase, but LoveTap isn't responsible for that. MF has always been a strong laner and through my tests on the PBE, I have yet to find a situation outside of laning phase where I felt I was a beast that didn't involve pressing the R. It's always felt like I was playing around a mechanic trying to "make it work" rather than utilizing it to any real effectiveness. Giving examples of situations where she should excel out would better help in properly assessing the changes. **_"The base AD changes are certainly harsh, but..."_** Mister Statikk, sir... {{champion:21}} now has less AD at level 18 than {{champion:31}} does at Level 1.... That is a problem....period... T-T It makes it unreasonably harder for her to take objectives such as Dragon, and Towers, especially the latter since through some vey awkward means , you can proc LoveTap off of Scuttler to hit Baron or Drag, while Towers are straight up unaffected by LoveTap. **3.** I'm glad this has been made clear. My only issue hear is that my original fear seems to be ringing true hear; This change seems to be for the sake of change rather than strengthening MF's identity and play style akin to all the other Marksman changes. This both confuses and worries me as it sends the message that Riot doesn't believe she had an identity in the first place, which simply isn't true. I don't know what the listed changes will be like until i put them into practice once the PBE is updated, but personally I really don't feel like these will fix the core issues. For starters, it doesn't address the designs over reliance on LoveTap. If anything it seems to make her even more reliant on it. It really feels like it is being shoved down the throat at this point, which only goes to sow how I feel it contrasts and juxtaposes itself too much with her kit and identity, so much so that it has to compromise and override parts of it.
I disagree with many of your points; really, of your big points. But before I get to that, the things I do agree with: 1. MF having less AD than Cho'gath is silly, MF should clearly have more AD than Cho. I did not confirm this, just trusting that you did the number crunching. Feel wise, I don't mind the current AD levels but I do think that comparison reveals something silly in the base numbers. 2. Doing more damage in less time does feel more powerful, and I would appreciate a change to make the ulti "feel" more impactful. 3. MF should have meaningful weaknesses, has meaningful weaknesses, and they are good weaknesses. Namely, low mobility. Ok. I basically disagree with everything else. Let me address some of the comments in turn: 4. You claim that Love Tap encourages bad positioning by making her have a second target thereby putting her at too much risk for the potential reward. I will grant you that Love Tap makes the positioning equation more difficult, but I reject the idea that it makes her positioning "bad" because I think the biggest factor is that MF is a low-mobility carry. Since MF is low-mobility she fundamentally needs her team to help keep her safe while she carries. Love Tap increases the risk involved by encouraging a second, or more, targets to hit and thus needs higher reward to compensate. I think the idea that Love Tap has become the biggest factor of risk, over her low-mobility, is unfounded and is why I reject your claim. As to whether or not MF is balanced properly around the risks that are in her kit... we can debate that until the cows come home. 5. You claim that MF cannot dominate in mid-late game outside of her ulti. In my play I have found her ulti to be unreliable unless I overlap it with ally CC. Instead, I find great success and power from combining Love Tap and Strut's infinite active to clear waves, destroy team fights, and take down objectives (although without the infinite attack speed, for now). I think a lot of people are missing the power of Strut's synergy with Love Tap which I think makes a big difference in MF's kit during the entire game. 6. You claim that the Love Tap change is for the sake of change and does not make sense with her identity. I will grant that I do not see Love Tap as playing into the "wombo-combo" that Riot claims MF to love. I see her ulti doing that, but not Love Tap. However, I think Love Tap does synergize with having two pistols. If you had two pistols would you really want to just shoot one target at a time all the time? I think Love Tap is a different play on the two guns concept from what Lucian has with his single target focused experience (passive and ulti). Love Tap may change the identity of MF, but that does not make it a bad thing if the change synergizes with other aspects of that identity, which I think it does (read previous sentence). Every champion has a complex identity with multiple facets, and no ability is going to synergize with all of them. However, each ability should synergize with something in that complex identity and I think the new MF does do this better than before. Overall, I think most people are missing out on the joys of the new MF. I may be the odd man out here, but I disagree that "Love Tap is not rewarding enough to use". By itself, sure, Love Tap leaves me wanting. But I think the key is utilizing the (potentially) infinitely lasting attack speed on the Strut active (hence the changes to make that longer, so you notice it). You do not play ADC to use abilities to destroy people, you play ADC to use auto-attacks to destroy people. New MF uses her auto-attacks to destroy people in a very unique way through her Love Tap bonus damage and synergy with the Strut active. As an ADC main, I really enjoy this change because it is putting a lot of the power into my hands through how I choose to prioritize targets (triggering Love Taps) and when I choose to activate Strut.
: Special Delivery's design is somewhat counter-intuitive, but this is intentional. Corki is not supposed to be a Rumble replacement even though the mechanics on the surface look similar. The intent of Special Delivery is for Corki to be able to split up enemies and cause chaotic positioning. Even though Special Delivery's potential damage output is insane, it is intended to be a very unreliable source of damage.
Fair enough, that is about what I expected. :D. It is a nice tradeoff on how I want to use the Special Delivery, for damage or zoning, but seems to be mostly a zoning tool. However, diving over or behind enemies is not usually my style when I play adc (which I main) so it will take me some time to adjust around how to use the new options optimally. On another note, I definitely noticed Valkyrie's reduced range. I did NOT notice it when laning as a mid-laner or even in team-fights as I was already on the periphery. However, I really noticed the difference when laning as a bot laner. I expected to go that extra 200 units but did not; then I got rekt. It will take some games to readjust.
: Hey guys, there's been a lot of awesome feedback in the thread. So much that I don't have the capability of responding to you guys individually in this case So instead, I want to ask some generalized questions that will help guide us forward (try to keep answers brief and concise): **1. What is your assessment of her general power level on PBE? Does she feel overall strong or weak? 2. What is your assessment of her power level in lane? 3. Is last hitting minions difficult? 4. What is your assessment of her power level in late game? 5. What is your assessment of Bullet Time's power level at level 6? At Level 16? 6. Does Love Tap feel effective and rewarding when it can be utilized (note that the adjustments made to Love Tap on Friday have not hit PBE)?**
I am mainly giving feedback answering question 6, about Love Tap, but my thoughts also give feedback on 1, 2, and 3. TLDR: I think Love Tap is effective and rewarding especially when farming by making it easier to last hit and harass. Love Tap also gives meaningful targeting choices in teamfights being most effective when MF can safely focus 2-3 targets. However, MF cannot focus down a single enemy optimally without the use of her ultimate and can be bursted out easily, which feels like a reasonable tradeoff. Overall, she could stand to have less power on her Love Tap against champions before 6 and more after 6. I really enjoy Love Tap (question 6, and 3) and the infinite interaction with W because of the new pattern MF gets from it. I think this pattern is particularly effective when farming. The passive makes last hitting easier when NOT focusing a single target. Meanwhile, the infinite attack speed steroid allows MF to alternate between farming and harassing fluidly and grants MF a modicum of wave clear by pruning a wave and last hitting minions when they are low. MF benefits from extended teamfights in which she is not focused since she has to alternate targets for maximum damage. MF is also effective when kiting a teamfight by alternating her attacks between the two closest enemies on the edge of the fight. However, she will not focus down an enemy effectively unless she ults them and, being an adc, can be killed very quickly. This makes positioning optimally for damage on priority targets very risky for MF. As far as I have experienced, she is somewhat effective against tanks and juggernauts but really brings reliable dps throughout a teamfight and does not want to focus fire her enemies. In terms of power in lane (question 2), I think her kit can be very powerful in lane because she can farm and harass fluidly. She is not unbearable though. Engage champions can easily get in and break her streak, significantly reducing her damage. I think her infinite W minigame will end up being a strong skill matchup much like Draven. Instead of thinking "how can I make him drop his axe" you will be thinking "how can I stop MF's attack speed steroid". MF's minigame is more forgiving than Draven's though, for both her and her opponents. For her opponents, early game MF cannot keep up the attack speed steroid indefinitely yet. She lasts about as long as 1 wave even if there are more creeps, then she has an opening when she does less damage. For MF this same attribute comes into play in her benefit. Her goal is not to keep the axe in the air all of the time, but to make effective use of the steroid whenever it is up because it will naturally go down. In an MF lane both sides will end up playing around MF's periods of increased and reduced attack speed. For more general power (question 1), I think MF is very powerful in the laning phase through harassing enemy champions. The extra damage from her passive can quickly chunk an enemy laner at early levels, especially at her level 2 power spike. I think a nerf to early laning power against champions would be reasonable (levels 1-5). Later in game MF can wave clear and take towers more effectively than before, but not as effectively as Sivir or Trist/Jinx respectively. This makes her a strong pick for the mid game for controlling the flow of waves and the game as a whole. She gains this in trade for less effective dueling. Her teamfighting is most effective over longer fights and does not do well in a bursty game or when she can be focused. In converse with the laning phase, I think she could stand to have a buff to her passive's bonus damage to champions in the mid and late game to make her more effective and feel more meaningful in shorter teamfights (levels 7-18). Thanks for reading! Good luck!
: Corki PBE Feedback Thread
These Corki changes are a lot of fun and add a great level of risk to Corki's play. Using the package is very satisfying and feels impactful, which is great. In particular, it is fun to soar overhead while laying down a threatening zone for my enemies to avoid. Moreoever, it is a unique form of initiation that marksmen so rarely bring to a team and it is great to be able to bring that as a mobile ADC. I am sure you have talked about this internally so I would love to get your thoughts on the following topic: I am a little concerned that the package is trying to do two things that counteract each other: laying down damage and a slow while also knocking players away. It seems unnatural too me to knock enemies away from my damage and slow. Imagine if allies got knocked away from the healing of a Janna ultimate, it feels kinda like that. A few ideas: 1. Have the package suck in instead of knock out. Maybe they can be gravity well bombs that lay down fire after pulling enemies in. 2. Since there are 2 packages on the fountain one can be a knock back package with a larger zone meant for zoning and splitting up teamfights and the other can be a damaging package that focuses on laying the zone down to do maximum damage and slow effect. 3. Have the ability mark opponents with a burn mark that deals the damage and slow to them over X seconds. This mark can be refreshed while the enemies stand on the zone and can also be put on any enemies that are knocked away initially. 4. Remove some of the damage to double down on the zoning aspects of the package by adding a dash stop similar to Veigar's cage. Any dashes attempting to go over the middle of the zone get cut short ending at the middle of the zone while blinks can still go over. Those are my 2 cents. Great work!

manac4nnon

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