: > [{quoted}](name=huntsoda,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=HooIaPw0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-29T21:15:35.423+0000) > > ... slows are prevalent because they're highly interactive... > They are no more interactive than snares are when hit with a sufficient number of stacking slows. I agree with your points about slows being good for the game overall, in a vacuum. But they don't exist in a vacuum and can't be compared directly to hard cc because unlike any other cc that exists, slows can stack on top of eachother for greater effect AND 2/3rds of the roster has access to a slow in their kit, and there are quite a few slowing items. There aren't any hard cc items and there is no way to make a stun more powerful by stunning someone who is already stunned AND so few people even have stuns to begin with. Thats what I'm saying. Slows by themselves aren't bad for the game, and neither is flash. But having slows every fucking where crammed into every fucking thing is definitely bad for the game, in the same way that having different versions of flash being crammed every where into everything would be bad for the game. Imagine if flash were a potion that you could stack in sets of 5, how crappy the game would become. It would just degenerate into a flash fest and the strategic and tactical depth of the game would be totally extinguished. Thank god flash isn't everywhere, its limited and costly. Slows are everywhere. They are so cheap its not even funny and the overall nature of the "stuff" that happens to league of legends as a video game because of the ubiquity of slows is BAD.
Slows push interaction (Fight or Flight, and Flight isn't very possible while slowed), and the ubiquity is mirrored by a certain devauleing- people are strategizing around stun locks, not slow stacking, and the hidden power of slows is, I agree, high, but it brings with it a high level of reward for people who understand how good it is. Also, Flash as a trinket with 5 charges and a 5 second CD sounds like a fun featured game mode. But yes, it removes a lot of the punishment for bad positioning - but slows actually are part of that punishment. If you're in a bad way, you can't just pray you'll out range the nasus long enough to escape - he'll wither you right away, and you're stuck. Slows add a lot of complexity to when and how you engage with people, but also highly encourage it - either you trap someone near enough to you, or you expose yourself by putting it on CD. Slows might be in most champions kits, but most only have 1, and several of those are highly conditional. Vlad, for instance, isn't slowing anyone outside of melee range. Zyra only slows inside the range of a plant, and if you're getting slowed she has put a lot of effort into setting up a scenario where you're in range of the vine plant. There are AoE, zoning slows, there are aggressive, spell based slows, there are slows designed for kiting, there are slows designed to create a risk/reward skill (Viktor's W)... their flexibility and variety means that, while there are a lot of effects that use "slow" to describe what they do, most champions cannot use it in an identical way, and many don't want to. And also, I don't quite understand your primary objection - slows seem almost perfect, yet you're dead set that they need to be far lessened from the game: what do they do that any replacement mechanic to achieve the same goal wouldn't do, other than being able to save a lot of time and create an easy to tweak number?
: @Xypherous: Slows in league of legends and their influence on the game.
While I believe this belongs on live, I also think that you're expressing the "flash problem." Almost everyone takes Flash on almost every champion, but Riot has said in the past that it's not perceived as an issue, because Flash is awesome. It has so many uses, and adds so much dynamic to the game, that it's allowed to dominate. Much in the same way, slows are prevalent because they're highly interactive. Many champions interact with slows in a unique way - Ashe and Anivia get bonus damage, Nasus' gets increasing power, Galio gets some much needed power budget, Orianna gains safety - much like Flash, slows have many, many uses, which play out differently across games and between champions. Slows decrease the power gap of melee and ranged, they provide an out for ganks, and they make engagements more accessible to a wider range of champions. Champions without slows or hard lock down get ignored because they can't stick to their targets if they're ahead, and can't escape if they're behind, discouraging interaction. Hard lock down is really punishing to play against, and consumes a large amount of power budget, while slows, which aren't "free," are much less intrusive. Playing with, they are less guaranteed, but provide a lot of the same benefits, but against you maintain some mobility and basically full DPS. As to why they stack... strangely, I assume this is a concern that no one like being basically stunned - part of the appeal of slows is that they aren't a complete loss of control of your character, and diminishing returns on slows allow a functional minimum speed.
: The New Hud, It's problems and some Solutions
This always comes up: You can't just wave your hands and make the HUD customizable. It's a large piece of code with a huge impact on gameplay, and introducing that variance into the game not only makes the game less stable, it's not always desirable. There are actively bad configurations for the HUD, and players who arrive at those will have an inferior experience. This is bad for business, bad for games (your support can't see you because you're under their items? really?), and a hugely wasted effort. As to the "change it back," it's a large interface change. It will be a shock. A "revert" option is bad for the long term health of the game - maintaining two huds is a logistical nightmare. Some of your feedback I wholeheartedly agree with though. The stats are unnecessarily difficult to read, the scaling of the HUD is completely different; that's the kind of thing that's important to hear and can actually be discussed/fixed.
: The character menu should be a toggle and I'd definitely prefer to have it written out what stats they are, it's confusing to look at such small icons.
It is a toggle, but you have to click the little champion helmet icon underneath your portrait. You'll then get the lower half displayed permanently/until you click the helmet again.
: But this doesn't let ALL of your stats be readily available to glance at.
They're pretty much the same ones that were there pre update - I don't know that I need to be able to quickly glance at my armor pen while mid combat. Pressing C gives you basically the same functionality it used to, less obtrusively, while the new updated stats panel shows you more information than the old one. Sounds like a win/win to me.
: New HUD (Stats like ad/ap)
If you click the little helmet under your portrait, half of the stats will appear where the C menu is.
: 21/9/0 Masteries Nerfed
21/9 masteries are SUPPOSED to be nerfed - they were correct too often, for too many champions. That's why the rewards for going deep in Defense and Utility have been upped recently, and the buy in is a little bit steeper.
: Ashe Passive bug
Just confirmed this, it doesn't apply the slow (and therefore crit) OR gain you stacks of focus to Q or W. That's... disturbing. Note: at <5 stacks of focus, passive works fine during Q as a steroid. Only the flurry fails. PPS: the ulti works fine, both on the stun target and AoE.
: Jayce bug
This is now fixed on the PBE :D W-> R now does the magic proc AND the % physical for 3 attacks. Hooray!
: Well, bug report is pretty old, so it's fine to remind that this bug exists :3
oh, glad I just went and confirmed it xD But yes, totally a bug.
: I have a request for the new HUD
I don't understand how people think you can just "unlock the hud." I think its far more development and coding work than people realize, and its far beyond the scope of "just make it less 2010, please." It also makes the game a less consistent experience - just like item sets, it'd have to be stuck on the local client, meaning it'd be harder to take your account elsewhere, a huge deal for League especially. In magical fantasy land, fully customizable hud isn't even ideal - it's bad enough when your team dies "typing," but them being dead because they need to swap the position of the dragon and baron timers sounds utterly miserable. Not to mention the fact that some people will make bad decisions - if you put your skills bar at the top of the screen, locked camera becomes totally useless to you, because it's upshifted and you need exactly the opposite. This has been a recurring request since it launched, but it not being literally a complete restructure of how League's interface works isn't something you need to voice your disappointment in - keep feedback in scope, constructive, and specific. "I don't like it, it's different" or "Why can't we /just/ rearrange every hud element" isn't nearly as useful as "I can't really read the ally ulti indicators" or "the stats bar is hard to see/read" etc.
: [Diana] Diana Q does not apply Moonlight at the larger end of the skillshot.
Just reproduced this, it would appear that the "explosion" part of Crescent Strike isn't applying moonlight properly, despite dealing damage. Steps: 1. Cast diana Q, aiming the orb at the end of the shot directly in front of an enemy unit (through minions works great for illustration). Expected result: everything Crescent Strike damages should have Moonlight applied. Actual Result: Only units in the crescent path are marked - the Q explosion doesn't apply moonlight at the moment. The moonlight mark itself still refreshes ulti CD.
: PBE Bug - Diana
This actually belongs in bugs, and has been reported [here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/ETK4i1Aa-diana-diana-q-does-not-apply-moonlight-at-the-larger-end-of-the-skillshot). Please search for you topic before making a new post. On the bright side, I can totally reproduce it. It seems like you don't mark enemies hit with the "explosion" part at the end of her Q. She easily marks people on the way out, and all units in the explosion take damage.
: I made a post on it actually the short end is that by spreading out information rather than clumping everything together makes it easier to read A real life example is that is it easier to find your car keys when thrown into a pile with a bunch of random things (current new HUD) or would it be easier to find the keys where all the objects that would have been in a pile are separated and spaced properly among a shelf (or something) easily visible to see without going pile diving and trying to figure out where your car keys are; you just quickly glance at that shelf and you can clearly see there is a car key, a toy, a watering can, a gps, and an electronic gadget [random objects for example] Another example of what the current new HUD looks like in word form: "isthissentenceeasytoreadtoyouatallorareyouhavingahardtimereadingthiswithoutanysortofspacingandclumpingthewordstogether?" What is in " " are actual words and a sentence, but can you read this sentence easily? Most likely not, it should be very difficult to read. So by spreading the HUD out and making it less clumped up makes it easier to read information like spell cooldown, spell rank up icons, minimap, game time, kda, minions/monster score, items, and all that fun stuff at a simple glance - even the scoreboard being more spaced out with each line being for each player with your team on top and enemy team on bottom like the current scoreboard on LIVE I think the only two things the new HUD did well was it is easier to see your teammates portraits above the minimap and the exp (and champion icon) being closer to the centre are better placements than the current LIVE HUD the current LIVE HUD is better practically and on a design stand point Also the non-highlighted font is too dark on the options menu, needs to be brighter hard time reading dark font on a dark background **** tl;dr : having the HUD properly spaced out among a " _| " shape is better and easier to find information at a quick glance over clumping everything in a corner and have to spend some time going dumpster diving to find what you are looking for **** and I do much prefer having both quick stats like what current LIVE HUD is by the items, but also a pop up window like the current LIVE HUD for a more detailed analysis since small cramped up numbers is hard to find things clearly having a window that you can see, for example, "Spell Vamp: 20% or Magic Penetration 10 / 15%" is a lot easier to read and know what I am looking at and less about a memory game of seeing a million stats in a small area and have to memorize what each stat is is not efficient at all and even worse for a new player stand point [also i do not use C for my character stats, i like clicking the character icon and the character stats window pops up; also i click on my gold for the shop and not use P] **** hope this helps, because right now the new heads up display is nothing but frustrating right now and makes me not want to play the game
The "keys in a pile of junk" analogy kind of falls apart since most piles of junk shift around, while the HUD is actually quite static. Also, when looking for your keys, you have basically all your energy devoted to that task. During a League match, you want to know a stat WHILE doing something else. The new hud opens up the map so that you can move and aim while looking at your CD's or MS stat. Asking it to be just like the old thing isn't really constructive feedback, it's resistance to change.
: Thought and Suggestions on the new HUD
This belongs [here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/rBZQzQRo-new-hud-feedback).
: [BUG] In Game Item Shop - Zephyr is not listed when you click a dagger
It should actually list stinger, a blue looking sword at the same angle as Nashor's Tooth. {{item:3101}} is not the same as {{item:3115}} , and Stinger builds into both Nashor's and Zephyr. Zephyr's build path is stinger/ pickaxe. TL;DR this is intended behavior, not a bug.
: >Champions that are "meh" at everything are really, really boring. I feel quite differently. I like being able to adapt to multiple situations. Champs who excel at one thing get boring to me, since you are forced to play one specific way to win. With someone like MF you can adapt your playstyle and build to the game and still be successful. Maybe not highly successful, but good enough to the point that, if you couldn't win with one strategy, you might be able to switch and win with another. For many champs, if you can't win with their primary strength, they aren't good enough at anything else to consider winning with a different strategy. Basically, I like options. Even if those options are meh. I don't honestly expect MF to be a generalist (because I know Riot wont allow it), but I also don't have an opinion on her preferred strengths. Or even if this is the time to define them. The most important thing right now is to improve her feel. It's alright for her to stay underwhelming overall, so long as she doesn't feel miserable to play in some (many) cases. Like I said, nerf her weaknesses over buffing her strengths. Because even if she had more well defined strengths, I don't like the feel of her current weaknesses, so I would still want them to be changed in some way.
> [{quoted}](name=Whistlesticks,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=vjdKjJVU,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-04T05:36:22.899+0000) > > I feel quite differently. I like being able to adapt to multiple situations. Champs who excel at one thing get boring to me, since you are forced to play one specific way to win. With someone like MF you can adapt your playstyle and build to the game and still be successful. Maybe not highly successful, but good enough to the point that, if you couldn't win with one strategy, you might be able to switch and win with another. For many champs, if you can't win with their primary strength, they aren't good enough at anything else to consider winning with a different strategy. > > Basically, I like options. Even if those options are meh. > > I don't honestly expect MF to be a generalist (because I know Riot wont allow it), but I also don't have an opinion on her preferred strengths. Or even if this is the time to define them. The most important thing right now is to improve her feel. It's alright for her to stay underwhelming overall, so long as she doesn't feel miserable to play in some (many) cases. Like I said, nerf her weaknesses over buffing her strengths. Because even if she had more well defined strengths, I don't like the feel of her current weaknesses, so I would still want them to be changed in some way. I agree MF's weaknesses ATM play out in a disappointing way, but saying that highly focused champions have no adaptability seems flawed to me. Item builds, location rotations, focused objectives, and use in team composition are all very powerful player agency features, and leaving a specific champion's kit focused around 1 objective, be it high range AoE, SNIPING FOOLS, bursty assassinations, or team focused utility play doesn't seem limiting to me. If the game capped you at playing 10 champions, I'd understand wanting each to be quite good at everything, with some special strength/weakness pattern, but part of the beauty and frusturation of league is that there are dozens upon dozens of champions, and each one has to feel unique or they're boring. No one's happy when champions overlap, because it muddles identity, makes counterplay really difficult, and introduces even more homogeneity into a game that's already ruled by ludicrous pick rates. I would like to see MF actually be strong at whatever strengths she ends up with, and with clear, fun weaknesses. There should be an element of 'oh, you got me" to losing strut right before a gank, but instead the gut reaction is "man, I really miss that 10-20 base MS right now".
: a) Both abilities can be used as an escape and as an engage. both champions are ninjas, why are you saying it doesn't make sense ? if you don't know how much the combo cost you can look it up on leaguewikia b) No idea what you wrote here stop downvoting every discussions with no valid reason or if you have no idea what you're talking about.
> [{quoted}](name=Battle Maiden,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=1E7wN9Kj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-04T04:19:35.526+0000) > > a) Both abilities can be used as an escape and as an engage. both champions are ninjas, why are you saying it doesn't make sense ? > if you don't know how much the combo cost you can look it up on leaguewikia > b) No idea what you wrote here > > stop downvoting every discussions with no valid reason or if you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, mana/energy costs are relative to a champion. A 10 mana spell may sound cheap, but if the champion has 100 mana at level 18 and very low (1/5 or something) base regen, it can be really hard to justify casting. Similarly, energy costs are relative to how much energy the champion has, and how much they are using for other abilities. Also, Shen's E is a dash with CC attached. Zed's W is a long animation time blink that has high utility. As to my second point, I was trying to communicate that it may not be correct to max E second, since there is a much greater incentive to doing so. You didn't explain how buffing shen's level 1 E cost helped him be a better ninja, and while I'm interested in how that might be possible, I'm doubtful.
: Yeah, this is a pretty nasty bug. The AS buff, and ulti's transform damage carry over, but I"m dealing 2 physical damage per attack, as opposed to 72 on the next (fourth). I wonder if this is a bug of the 70% damage dealt by the AS buffed ranged AA's? Notably, the W still works properly with ranged autos. Repro steps: 1. Take W as Jayce. 2. Activate W in cannon form, then switch to hammer form and auto attack. Expected result: You will deal 70% damage on the 3 auto attacks Actual Result: You deal about 5% damage. As Cosmic Meep said, you WILL get the passive from transforming from Cannon to Hammer (magic damage). Also, the attack speed remains high, I would assume it still triggers Wit's End and Nashor's Tooth effects.
Yep, just tested. Hyper Charged hammer attacks apply Recurve Bow damage. Seems I was wronga bout the "reduced damage overload" theory, maxing W has no effect on damage from W'd hammer attacks.
: Jayce bug
Yeah, this is a pretty nasty bug. The AS buff, and ulti's transform damage carry over, but I"m dealing 2 physical damage per attack, as opposed to 72 on the next (fourth). I wonder if this is a bug of the 70% damage dealt by the AS buffed ranged AA's? Notably, the W still works properly with ranged autos. Repro steps: 1. Take W as Jayce. 2. Activate W in cannon form, then switch to hammer form and auto attack. Expected result: You will deal 70% damage on the 3 auto attacks Actual Result: You deal about 5% damage. As Cosmic Meep said, you WILL get the passive from transforming from Cannon to Hammer (magic damage). Also, the attack speed remains high, I would assume it still triggers Wit's End and Nashor's Tooth effects.
: The Shen "Shadow Dash" buff doesn't make him a better ninja
a) The zed reference doesn't make sense since resources vary from champ to champ, it'd be more useful to know how much the combo costs b) Is it possible this will change the "E is always maxed last" that you cite negates this buff?
: Large HUD bug
Do you have a screenshot? "Very large and distracting" is a difficult description to work with. Is it obscuring your champion? Have you adjusted all three HUD sliders?
: "Rune Starter Kit Bundle you can find most used Runed there. DO NOT BUY IT MORE THAN ONCE, or your runes are going to duplicate and you won't be able to buy other runes." http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/G2h6QTbN-useful-information-for-new-pbe-players This is a known issue, if they have not fixed it by now odds are they wont fix at all.
^^ The way the store works they cannot fix this; however, if you contact support and ask nicely they will reset your runes and you can buy it a single time.
: IM NEW IN PBE
You will automatically level up in a few hours (the bot does it some time in the early morning, Pacific Time). That's also when you should get your RP and IP. It's best to just be patient, since everyone else is level 30. Welcome to PBE! Happy testing! you should probably read the 3 stickies as well, they help with things like this :D
: Mandrake ward is a side project of one of the Rioters. I guess he is too busy currently working on other stuff. Either way, I honestly think that it was too early for Mandrake ward to be realesed on PBE.
How can something be too early for the PBE?
: New HUD Feedback
I think that in general the scale of the UI is just a little off. Level up arrows and stats are a little hard to read and it's impossible to fix that without making my champions face take up half the screen. I'd love to see either the base stats bar be slightly larger, or have separate scaling for it, and maybe bring the yellow of the level up arrows up in brightness. Overall, I think it's a vast improvement. Less clutter, a fresh coat of paint, and more of a 3 color scheme than a 10 color scheme
: I figured someone would comment on her lane power. I didn't find a place to fit it into my OP, but I have to disagree with this actually being much of a strength. Her kit comes up short for actually being a successful lane bully. It is easy to play around her and prevent her from taking advantage of her... advantages. She relies too heavily on her support, and other ADCs lane bully just as well or even better, while not suffering such harsh drawbacks, or having other strengths as well. Or in the case of Twitch, he has his assassination potential as a major strength, while also having a solid team fight presence. It's not that she doesn't have strengths, its just that, especially when compared to her contemporaries, her strengths dont outweigh her weaknesses. >AP was originally supposed to be the only ability scaling, and AD was specifically for Auto Attacks. Even Zac can't stretch far enough for this to legitimately explain MF's ratios/damage types. Not to mention this has almost no relevance in modern League, and, if it isn't already, definitely needs to be abandoned in favor of more sensible and balance-able paradigms. Rather than buffing her strengths, I would rather nerf her weaknesses. Personally, I'm actually okay with her being 'meh' at many things. Her lane is okay, her teamfight is good, she can duel and take objectives decently. The real problem is that she has weaknesses that would otherwise balance out much greater strengths. If those weaknesses weren't so harsh, I believe she would feel much better overall.
Champions that are "meh" at everything are really, really boring. I understand loving MF, I do to, but if she's OK at literally everything it's not fun. When she's good, she's unbeatable, and when she's bad, she's unplayable. Harsh weaknesses like low mobility and bad dueling when her steroids are off CD are meant to combat strengths, like potency while those CDs are up or necessitating jumping on her, that I agree she doesn't, at the moment, display. That way, there's a strong reason to pick her. She's the "X" champ, but she's really bad if the enemy jungler is "XYZ" because "Blah." That should work for every champ. (Coming up with an example makes me realize that the "god tier" League meta actually just makes champion design ridiculously hard) Buffing the things she's /supposed/ to be good at, the engagements she's chosen, should accentuate that you choose her to stomp early, control dragon, and push hard. Yeah, she doesn't do that right now. Yeah, her lane is mediocre, and we're used to her having no particular strength, but the status quo being broken is why champions get changed. Straight buffs tend to not make a champion more interesting or fun, just more powerful. When you have a good champion that's good at everything (Elise, anyone?), they're overplayed, perceived as easy, and people get sick of them. Having really limited T1 champs is boring, and "good all around" champions perpetuate that. The argument against that is a) League is primarily a solo queue game, and people want to play the champs they know, and your team isn't personally responsible for compensating for your pick, and b) the best champions are good at everything. Thresh, Sona, Jinx, Caitlyn, Vi... those consistent T1/T2 champs, have very few weaknesses. They aren't locked into long cooldowns for effectiveness, they play defense and offense relatively well, they don't have an ineffective time in the game, and meta shifts do not significantly change their pick rates / effectiveness (Jinx may be a little early to judge in this manner).
Rioter Comments
: Double up is kind of a skillshot kind of not. It does have a targeting system, but there is still luck/skill involved. It occupies a unique inbetween space, which is a good thing for sure. The biggest problem I have with her damage types and ratios is that, by the numbers, she should work as an AP or hybrid character, like Corki or Ezreal. But she doesn't. So basically she gets the negatives of being mixed damage, with almost none of the benefits. I understand that this is a balance point, I just feel that it goes a little crazy on Miss Fortune, and there are better ways to go about balancing her. But again, I don't think this is something thats going to be looked at right now, anyway. As it stands, MiR is basically a worthless spell. For the reasons I mentioned, it doesn't even provide relevant utility. Likewise, her passive isn't really an escape tool, either. It's just the best escape tool she has, which speaks to just how messed up she is. Even if both of them receive some of my suggested changes it wouldn't give her more safety than most ADCs these days. First, moveblocks are far more powerful than slows. Graves, Lucian, Corki, Ezreal, Tristana, and even Caitlyn can traverse walls. Vayne, Kalista, and Lucian to a lesser extent, have spammable moveblocks (Kalista can even go over walls as well). And most of these champs have secondary safety options as well. Even the other immobile champs are generally safer, with multiple options such as hard CC and slows. More than this, the problem with Miss Fortune is that she gains almost no significant advantages for her lack of safety. Most ADCs who sacrifice safety trade it for other distinct advantages. Like you said, Kog'maw does much more damage, not to mention he has safety in range. Varus has poke, and also has hard CC from his ult. Twitch is another example with a similar kit, but again he has more benefits for his relative lack of safety. Assassination potential, true damage, and he even has as much teamfight presence as Miss Fortune. Currently Strut and MiR are both ineffectual for safety. Even if they did serve that purpose properly, they still aren't strong options (moveblock or hard CC). There is plenty of power budget headroom for her safety, especially if we aren't talking about increasing her damage. As for this combo making her ungankable, I feel that could be addressed with some balance changes such as cooldown at low levels on MiR, and max movespeed bonus on Strut. Plus, Strut being largely out of Miss Fortunes control, it is easy for enemies to work around. A little poke from the support and suddenly she is incredibly gankable (this is currently part of the problem, but with some tuning could be an acceptable weakness).
I would argue that MF gets a very strong lane in exchange for her status being a bit lesser than similar teamfight carries - Twitch is actually pretty bad at trades in lane, while MF's double up does a lot of damage, and her autos hit harder earlier thanks to Impure Shots. As for the "non of the benefits of hybrid," we have to consider the history of LoL. AP was originally supposed to be the only ability scaling, and AD was specifically for Auto Attacks. That's why double up has AD scaling, but the ulti doesn't: one is an attack replacement, the other is an ability. I think that itemization currently doesn't favor her, but the amount of power Bullettime brings to a teamfight is substantial. She doesn't have good escape, but Strut gives her the tools to avoid engagements - especially if Make it Rain was something instead that fit the "bounty hunter" flavor better (remember that she's a pirate hunter, not a lady pirate). Maybe some vision and a faster Strut regeneration would make it just /hard/ to catch her, and in that way she doesn't need an escape, she just prevents unfavorable engagements. As the hunter, she should be setting up engagements that favor her, attacking from long range with double up, dueling while the Impure Shots steroid is up, or setting up her team's CC to exploit Bullettime. I agree this fantasy isn't in place now, but I do think it's possible - but she should definitely either END teamfights if uninterrupted, which can be difficult or impossible if slightly behind, or win lane and be very scary/difficult to gank. She needs a strength and weakness, where as right now she's just mediocre all around.
: [PBE Feedback] "New Missile System" - Rewriting Skillshots
Does this affect Twitch's ulti, since those auto attacks are... special?
: For someone like GP, this is still creepy. I can't wait for the update. I hope that this change doesn't hurt him though. But still, can't wait for a motion taunt and joke. More interactions with other champions. And its Bilgewater; when was the last time Bilgewater was even thought of. They have {{champion:41}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:111}} and {{champion:4}}. That's 6 out of 125 champions.
Uh, didn't Kalista, like, blow up Bilgewater?
: Re: Miss Fortune update; my thoughts, suggestions
I think double up is already a skillshot, and you aim it with your positioning. Which is a really cool reward for an ADC taking a risk, especially when it exploits a tool like Strut. It's one of the best designed parts of Miss Fortune, and I think it's why people play her. Double Up feels special, and I agree with you that it isn't on the radar ATM. (Also, like counter play for days. It's easier to dodge than Lucian's Q, and they nerfed the scaling on that back when he was mega OP. Never changed the way aiming worked.) I actually like Impure Shots, but I also play Varus so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I like the mixed damage aspect on her as it makes armor stacking a little less soul crushing to play against pre-LW. I do agree that the amount of AP scaling on her is confusing, but it's probably for the best since it isn't enabling Trinity Force (at least, not that I've seen) and enables an off build people actually have fun playing. (although, that off build exploits the fact that Make it Rain is terrible for an ADC). The Make it Rain change sounds way, way too strong. Most ADC's simply don't get that level of escape (MS buff passive + slowing E). If we look at similar abilities, we have Varus and Kog'Maw E's, Lucian and Graves Dashes (on E), Vayne Tumbles, and Jinx's Flame Chompers. (other ADC's get defensive abilities on E too, but they aren't quite the "CC them" style). If make it rain is a flexible engage/disengage tool, like a dash, it's probably not supposed to scale up, and probably should have more than a 10% slow. Here is the cast that makes the most sense for just a straight up buff, although that might make her horrifying as getting 20%+ slowed and then Bullettimed sounds like a dreadful way to die - MF's ulti should be about rewarding identifying where the enemy wants to be and preventing them from being there, or used as a way to wreck during an ADC duel (think Twitch's Ulti). This buff would also require a shorter casting time. It might also be primarily an escape, less flexible but more powerful. In this case scaling slow makes sense, because at max range it isn't doing much to lock people down, and at minimum range isn't saving MF too much damage, but if placed in between MF and an Udyr it could save her life. I wonder if this makes River Ganking an MF+Janna/Thresh lane impossible, or if there's a scaling speed which is satisfying for the ability, but I think having to plan about usiing it defensively is interesting and potentially a place for smart power (too early and it does nothing, too late and you're dead, just right and it powerfully locks down the enemy). This version is closest to Jinx's Flame Chompers, and probably requires an increased duration and cool down (although I cast it so little the CD might already be high enough. Honestly no idea, this version would probably need an 18s+ CD). Like I said, this + keeping up strut might make MF "Completely ungankable". Then there's leaving it as it is, like with Varus and Kogmaw. Interestingly, both those champion have similar Q pokes + W magic damage on hit, but both have a larger pay off for a successful engagement (a large amount of % HP magic damage), while MF is more likely to want to poke through minions and then engage in large teamfights, a fairly different pattern from optimizing a steroid or procing spell casts. I think MiR and Kog's E are in a similar, not super satisfying place, although they may have some power I'm not seeing. This version would basically be like the "dash" option above, sans improved cast time. This is probably the least meaningful and least rewarding buff here, since it would be a straight up numbers game of doubling the slow and leaving it as an awkward spell with this identity not of "i can sacrifice this safety to get a significant advantage now" but a "maybe if I cast this I can zone them out for a few seconds/deal some free damage." (Can you tell I don't like Kog'Maw's E, which I believe is significantly better than Make it Rain?). As for the ulti, I think it's in a fine place not directly scaling with AD, especially since it's procing her passive, which rewards her for poking around early (free stacks), and makes sure that her ultimate relies on her items. If you take W off ulti and add similar/better AD scaling, I think you weaken MF as a whole. Her current stacking pattern is cool, and Impure Shots automatically rewards her and her team for keeping people inside the ulti. Also, I'm excited to see where this goes. I think MF is fun to play, and giving her a bit more oomph may force me to pick up ADC again :D
: Athene's also removes the mana system, which isn't exactly healthy. Athene's did literally everything a mid laner wanted, and you ended up with a bunch of AD mid laners exploiting the fact that mana was built around getting chalice. New mana and new, much worse Athene's fixed that, but left early mage itemization awkward. On why having an AP/MR item is important, I think it's simply the fact that mages desperately need sustain. ADC's, the most fragile role in the game, actually get a large amount of survivability from lifesteal - perfect play from an ADC means they walk away from a fight at 50% not 10%. Mages don't get that value, but are also expected to build mostly damage. The reason they need an AP/MR item is the same reason they get Zhonya's: without resistances, max HP (Rod of Ages and Rylai's), or life gain, a champion is fairly useless. If the enemy team is something odd like Rumble/Diana/Orianna, your probably going to want MR much more than armor since they probably have one AD damage source. That leaves you with Athene's and live's Abyssal Scepter. On PBE there really isn't a way for mages to handle this... if we see power shift back to the mage role I wonder if hyper AP comps will come into prominence, or if Locket is strong enough to dissuade people with some level of coordination from attempting that. So TL;DR mages don't get life gain so they need other survivability stats, and MR is one of those, and if you can't build an efficient survivability item while you're behind, you will quickly become useless.
I seemed to have missed the context post on this rework initially *finds* OK [surrender@20 has](http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/05/red-post-collection-abyssal-scepter.html) some context tweets from early on, but if there was a forum thread prior to this I cannot find it. What was the intended goal of changing abyssal instead of making a new bruiser item?
: Abyssal Scepter Context
I wonder why you're leaving this on PBE. If the point is to double check the live environment, and mages don't yet have an AP/MR tool like they do on live, won't that mean that we're testing the wrong item set? I would imagine itemization combo's being wonky is something that's important to test, especially with something that can be hard to notice at first (say, if Abyssal Scepter's old Aura breaks in combination with some new change).
: A few things: 1. New(ly shelved) Abyssal's build path looks rather...derpy, tbh: {{item:1057}} + {{item:1052}} + {{item:1028}} Is there a particular reason not to use Bami's as a component for the HP/burn? From my PoV, it looks like a perfect fit, as it already has the HP and a similar aura burn component to Abyssal - except that it has a continous burn instead of the pulses of the new design. But is that really an argument against using Bami's? 2. Why do APs need a good AP/MR item? And can you elaborate on what kind of AP/MR item that would be? The problem I necessarily see with that stat combination lies in its binary nature in symmetrical match-up (AP vs AP). If it is strong enough as an item, it gives you the perfect tool against your opponent - increasing your damage while decreasing the damage that said opponent deals to you. Problem with that is, the same is actually true for your opponent, making the match-ups rather onedimensional and prone to easy snowballing by whoever completes said item first. And wasn't this exactly what was seen when Athene's was so strong on mid laners in the past seasons? Additionally, above argument against AP/MR was also brought forth as the reason for not having a strong AD/Armor item (or even none at all nowaday :P ).
Athene's also removes the mana system, which isn't exactly healthy. Athene's did literally everything a mid laner wanted, and you ended up with a bunch of AD mid laners exploiting the fact that mana was built around getting chalice. New mana and new, much worse Athene's fixed that, but left early mage itemization awkward. On why having an AP/MR item is important, I think it's simply the fact that mages desperately need sustain. ADC's, the most fragile role in the game, actually get a large amount of survivability from lifesteal - perfect play from an ADC means they walk away from a fight at 50% not 10%. Mages don't get that value, but are also expected to build mostly damage. The reason they need an AP/MR item is the same reason they get Zhonya's: without resistances, max HP (Rod of Ages and Rylai's), or life gain, a champion is fairly useless. If the enemy team is something odd like Rumble/Diana/Orianna, your probably going to want MR much more than armor since they probably have one AD damage source. That leaves you with Athene's and live's Abyssal Scepter. On PBE there really isn't a way for mages to handle this... if we see power shift back to the mage role I wonder if hyper AP comps will come into prominence, or if Locket is strong enough to dissuade people with some level of coordination from attempting that. So TL;DR mages don't get life gain so they need other survivability stats, and MR is one of those, and if you can't build an efficient survivability item while you're behind, you will quickly become useless.
: I... honestly don't understand your pricing structure any more. Don't get me wrong, I'm so glad Anivia and Cho'Gath's skins are "cheap" - but why? I'm beginning to think 750 is the price for "collection" skins, rather than any particular quality. Skins where you know players will likely buy (or want to) more than one, but the skins would probably be priced at 975 if released individually. Furthermore, I really don't know why you shut down requests for Queen of Diamond Syndra to have "Dark Diamonds" instead of spheres, or Ace of Spades Ezreal firing spade-shaped spells. Players even stated they would pay more for it. The claim "we want skins affordable to all types of players" kinda falls flat when you release Prehistoric Eggnivia (so cute, btw) and all the particle changes on Cho'Gath. Why couldn't you do Dark Diamonds and keep the skin priced at 750, if you were so heart-set on 750? Given the super high quality of 750 skins at the moment, how do you classify 975/1350 skins now? Recent 975 skins only seem to offer a new recall animation (which I personally don't think is worth it**, I would rather pay 750 and not get the new animation on Samsung Twitch); and recent 1350 skins only seem to have a voice filter... **Especially since I largely play ARAM and I can't even see them. Can we get a /special for recall animations? :D
The Twitch animation is adorable though! I actually have to agree, I'd love an updated pricing chart, because the old "recolor -520; new model textures - 750; new particles - 975; new everything but model - 1350; new model/other insanity like dynamic textures - 3250" doesn't seem to be accurate, since they don't make 520's, and 750's vary wildly in... not quality, but content. It's a little strange. I understand not taking on large amounts of particle work due to PBE feedback, but some consistency with pricing would be nice.
: The thing is, there are many people who are (or have been) arguing, dodging immediately, or trolling/feeding when they don't get Ekko. It's hard to report behaviour like this since the only way to report seems to be after the game, and all or most of this toxic behaviour seems to be happening in champion select. D: If you could suggest a way to report people without having to actually play with them and report them post-game, that would be very useful. ^_^
I wonder if it would have to recognize you've at least queued with that person; I'd hate your IGN being something you have to protect in order to make sure you don't get report flooded because of something you say outside of game.
: Hey JXE, I already gave a run down in an earlier post. I'm just going to say this so it goes direct. Please remove snowball as a summoner spell and make it an upgrade to Guardian's Horn. GH is already an ARAM only item, and it's an item with tankier stats. It encourages people who plan to initiate to pick it up and actually requires investment, and not a simple click before the game. As an ARAM player I'm tired of 10 snowballs and 10 flashes. I liked it better when it was 10 flashes and some heals, cleanses, and ignites. I think Guardian Horn upgrade is the BEST way to handle this problem. Turn the move speed buff to the snowball buff. Initiate damage of 2% max current HP on hit, and 3% on dash. Upon completing the dash, the user is awarded with 25 Armor and 25 Magic Resist for 3 seconds with a 15% move speed buff. Make the snowball require investment. If you want to be able to engage on the enemy team from 1500-2500 range, you need to at least put up 1010+650 upgrade cost or something similar. Right now, everyone is going to pick snowball. If you make it an item, everyone can get snowball anyways, but with it costing gold it may be less lucrative to divert from build path to get the item. The question that is asked by putting snowball on Guardian's Horn upgrade is "How much do you want to be able to initiate?" Maybe it'll make 500 AP Annie's with a team wide tibbers stun from 2500 range on a player that managed to dodge 4 of 5 snowballs less prevalent. I don't like spending 25 minutes dodging 375 snowballs (5 snowballers, 3 per minute x 25 minutes). It sucks. Even with the cooldown increase it's 187 snowballs per game.
The issue with Guardian's Horn is that a) an upgrade will come very, very late in the game, when something like Mark/Dash is more risky b) it limits the ability to champions who want tank stats, whereas the spell appeals to, well, currently everyone, but in a perfect world, AA range assassins as well (think Riven, Lee Sin, Rengar).
: > Pick rate =/= how successful they are Maybe, but it is an accurate reflector of how strong champions are _perceived _ to be. And that's all that really matters in a strictly for-fun gamemode.
For-fun implies it's fun, and if you go in with your main, only to realize they're unplayable, that simply isn't fun. (Especially Miss Fortune, who /should/ be strong due to her early AoE and relative excellence in teamfights early, shouldn't be bad simply because there is a 100% take of Mark/Dash.)
: The data is out there, at least as much as you can trust lolking data (it's certainly not 100%, but I do feel it's decent enough to use as a talking point). Melee now makes up 9 of the top 15 win rate slots on there. But which melee? The ones who were already pretty strong in the mode to begin with: Galio, Maokai, Rammus, WuKong, Sion, Swain. Two of the more interesting ones to appear are actually Vlad and Morde. Meanwhile, the likes of Eve, Akali, Lee, Rengar, Trynd, Elise, all still take up the bottom-tier slots on the win-rate charts. It's barely done anything to help these champions. This is probably mostly because of how strong the spell is, relatively speaking. When everybody is taking it, the advantage hopefully gained by those who need it is overshadowed by those who don't really need it but abuse it anyhow.
Vlad and Morde both scale amazingly off constant, early teamfighting, with early, strong AoE and both building sustain (but only for HP) meaning that they don't die much. I would assume they were very good starting around launch, and only getting better as players mainly engaged in ARAM (I'd love to see usage profiles for ARAM as well - I play 1-2 ARAM games a month, but are there people that play league *as* ARAM?) realized that champions without mana, but with decent ranged engage patterns/high sustain, are strong. I agree that the spell in its current incarnation doesn't aid AA range champs enough, since hard engagers can take them down as well. I'd love to see some of the damage either scale, or detonate on AA. (Could there even be a version of the spell with a slow on next AA, but less/no damage?)
: Yeah, I agree. This guy is saying that other people don't deserve the PBE because they're banning the very thing that needs to be tested, but meh. I just really hope all of this 100% pick/ban Ekko thing calms down. Q_Q
New Champion HYPE! Oh, you mean 100% pick/ban isn't a fun environment? Well, better wait until a week after 9.10 comes out to play... I think this happens with every new champ, it's natural, and it's heightened on the PBE because most people don't care win/lose or aren't super "I main X and only ever play X unless they're picked/banned." Also, unfortunately, banning Ekko on Hexa is probably correct. Someone on your team might pick him, and then you're in for a world of hurt; they won't know what they're doing. So these people who "don't deserve an account" might just want to test the game mode as 6v6 and not 5v5 with 2 worthless ekkos (or on the off chance he's overtuned, just get destroyed by someone who's playing a killer ekko.) TL;DR: Banning Ekko is probably a better method to test Hexakill since most players on live won't own Ekko, and he won't have 100% pick on both teams like he does on PBE.
: Let's be honest, there ain't people that are quality feedback users that are inactive until there's a new champ. I still stand by the fact that 9/10 of people currently on PBE are playing Ekko just so they could brag to their friends.
I just said that a lot of inactive accounts are people that aren't playing on live either. It's just a theory, but looking at other competitive games I believe it to be true. People take entire seasons off because they don't like the meta, etc. Not to mention Riot just opened a lot of new PBE accounts. I can't log in either, but the fact of the matter is that you can't claim all the users are illegitimate. There's a lot of feedback (of varying quality) on the forums right now; I'd take that as a successful test.
: People will go play him but wont send any feedbacks, so it's pretty useless. They'll play him and brag to their friends "EMRGD I have PBE and I could play him before you." Kinda stupid if someone is inactive for half a year and then comes when a champ is released, thoes kind of accounts should be warned after some time and if not react then suspended.
that was the old system, and queue times were eternal; quality feedback users could just take a break, lots of people do when they play a game a lot (Starcraft and Magic experience the same thing) but when they come back it's nice to just leave their PBE account for when they're back up to 100%.
: I agree with the Adc statement, but on the topic of annie I think you are wrong. A support is not meant to carry with damage, and if you are building damage as a support then the complaint is not in the support position. Annie specifically is still overpowered as a mid and support. She offers an intense amount of damage without even having ap, and with ap she just melts anybody from a huge distance, and on top of that it's all coupled with cc, so you can't react. If I had 1 LP for every time I've seen a sup annie with just a {{item:3303}} mid annie with just a {{item:3027}} completely blow up someone, I would be rank 1 in challenger by now.
I wasn't saying that supports SHOULD deal damage; I don't think games with 10 assassins would be fun to play. That stance, however, means that bot lane is low impact.
: The only problem there is right now is that ad's do more dmg to themselves than they do to others even with LW. The reason why i think the tanks meta should be changed is because the carry role as i said shouldn't even be called the carry role beacuse its more like a dummy that will insta die if not extremely fed and yet even if that does happen if the tanks reach a a certain point which they will cause their build is brokenly cheap that the meta is so one-sided to tanks. I have thought about waiting till this patch changes but i found out that tanks are pretty much free wins if not banned. I might sound salty but i have proof that the tank meta should be changed and yet i don't think riot cares because the ad/ap meta has been around since season 1, but cinder hulk is just to dam broken and its cheaper than a last whisper. The last whisper doesn't even matter since gromp and thronmail grant so many stats it's just insane. {{item:3073}}
It doesn't help that ever since BT changed casters have fallen off hard in the late game making many ADCs that were traditionally just OK (Varus, MF) and some that were excellent (Graves, Lucian) fall an entire tier. Ezreal is more effective with an AP, spam ulti build now, and that's simply irrational. So the best itemization is auto attack city, IE+Shiv/PD, while the best champions are those that build cinder/thorn and crush that build. It's simply a very hard lane to have an effect in, and it makes supports almost useless since their carries don't do much work. Add in that Riot thinks carry supports are unacceptable (see Annie nerfs) and you have a recipe for 3v3s.
: There is a problem with this system, and is we dont know what can we say or not: for example im playing with a friend and he says fkin feeder, we would laugh,cause we know is just a joke, but the system wont recognize this...or will? Also there must be a sheet on the client, saying what can we gonna say or not, for example,If we are on LAS or EUW we can speak spanish, and flame in spanish...so,if in LAS/LAN we flame on english,the system will detect it? Then again, In some context words can have several meanings, this is wha im trying to say, Some words are banned for use when they re harmless or not, example, I heard on LASLAN the word "bizcocho"(pancake/biscuit) is banned, If we say on a sentence "they were eating biscuits for breakfast" will they gonna be banned? and what would happens is someone says "your tit* are sweet as a biscuit" will they were banned? Then how will work this with xenophobia, and jokes? If someone says: youre a "lucian", joking with him being a black that would be discrimination/racism? and if the other answer: is because hes black? then both will be banned? Still, how we would know if we are flaming or not: ex: (I waste Flash to kill a minion) then I say "that was stupid", Then the system will be activated cause I used the word "Stupid"? Then if it is the case, if I say: "estupido/baka/dumb/" etc, will those word surpass the system? are really bad words? Note that those are examples and this post is not trying to insult anyone.
I think this still requires a report to trigger. > If a player receives enough valid reports to trigger the system So, as long as everyone in game acknowledges the joke, you should be OK.
: Ashe Q Stacks
It would make her push way too good. Much like how caitlyn can't stack headshots on turrets, if ashe could consistently Q towers it would be dangerous. (Also, by not stacking on towers it forces you to use W to stack focus, meaning you use more of the kit and change where the "best" position is.)
: As an additional note, we'll also be talking a bit more about the new voting experience where players can log into a website, review chat logs and vote on whether the behaviors are negative, neutral or positive. I'll be around the next few hours in case there are questions,
You all are obviously very concerned about taking control away from players for punishment. Does this indicate a general shift in philosophy toward broader, more systematic behavior coaching, or is this the an extreme case treatment that was deemed low cost / high impact? Essentially, why automate verbal harassment now, and not with the launch of a new Tribunal?
: where do you find the pbe notes
Visit http://www.surrenderat20.net/ and scroll to the lastest PBE post, or visit http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html if you've been out of the loop a whole patch cycle. Also, usually when a skin/rework is launched there will be a post here by a rioter, so check the red tracker (it should be on the left).
: Normal launcher
I would find the file in your file browser instead of on your desktop. It's called the same thing as the regular launcher, but it's inside a folder called "PBE Client Shell". Good luck. *Now putting this into google translate, apologies for not knowing french, yada yada* Je aimerais trouver le fichier dans votre navigateur de fichier plutôt que sur votre bureau. Ce est ce qu'on appelle la même chose que le lanceur régulière , mais il est dans un dossier appelé "PBE Client Shell " . Bonne chance. * Maintenant mettre cela en Google Translate, des excuses pour ne pas savoir français , bla bla bla *
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huntsoda

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