: Blue circle? So I have to turn off smart cast? Why would I do that? If it's not in this blue circle that *most players won't have* then it goes somewhere I have no control over, doesn't it? THEREFORE WE NEED AN INDICATOR. There's no blue circle dude. I wish we started this conversation off with that. Thanks for the downvotes because you don't smartcast though.
> [{quoted}](name=RuneKatashima,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=00690001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-08T04:00:15.501+0000) > > Blue circle? So I have to turn off smart cast? Why would I do that? > > If it's not in this blue circle that *most players won't have* then it goes somewhere I have no control over, doesn't it? THEREFORE WE NEED AN INDICATOR. > > There's no blue circle dude. I wish we started this conversation off with that. Thanks for the downvotes because you don't smartcast though. There is an option for range indicators, even with smartcast on.
: You did it Riot, you finally destroyed Talon he is completly useless, i played against a Leblanc and i was always faster death, than my W came back good job you create the most useless assasin of all time. after 2000 games with Talon and 3 seasons i will quit this game thank you for destroying my favorite champ
> [{quoted}](name=Black Gyver,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=006c,timestamp=2016-10-31T23:48:12.066+0000) > > You did it Riot, you finally destroyed Talon he is completly useless, i played against a Leblanc and i was always faster death, than my W came back good job you create the most useless assasin of all time. after 2000 games with Talon and 3 seasons i will quit this game thank you for destroying my favorite champ Logically speaking, I think you're overreacting, but [if you insist on leaving...](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/7/71/Junhyung-k-bye.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150309015440) You will be sorely missed.
: Sorry dude, but this here is a feedback forum. So you test the champion at it's limits and give feedback. Yasuo f.e. is also a midlaner and has recommended jungler items when you have smite. So i don't see your point. Maybe you missunderstood the idea of PBE. And beside that, the use of his E qualifies him as well as a Jungler. Take a look at the games today on normal servers. Many people already play him as Jungler. So before you write a comment like this next time, remember what this forum is for.
> [{quoted}](name=TSK Horseman,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=006200000001,timestamp=2016-10-27T10:59:25.072+0000) > > And beside that, the use of his E qualifies him as well as a Jungler. Take a look at the games today on normal servers. Many people already play him as Jungler. This is false, his E is a mobility spell primarily for the jungle, but his clear and sustain are trash early game, even compared to mid tier junglers. Q is only sustain when you hold onto it for last hitting, which makes you lose out on a damage spell for a while when finishing off a camp without small creeps, and you end up taking more damage than you would if spamming Q, since the camp dies slower when you hold Q. Also, the amount of health you get back from Q i abyssmal if you're only last hitting an average of 3 or 4 jungle creeps in a camp, versus last hitting 6 to 7 creeps in a wave. In lane you get close to double the sustain than in the jungle, and that's supposing you save Q for the last hit in both scenarios, rather than spam for clear speed. As for normal servers, aside from myself barely playing Talon jungle, and only in norms, I have not seen a Talon jungle in a LONG time. In ranked, unless I'm against another Talon one-trick, I don't think anyone even DARES to pick Talon jungle since the meta junglers would eat him alive. Even then, Talon one-tricks usually don't pick Talon jungle in the first place for this reason.
: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
I'm probably going to get downvoted hard for this, but I hope Stashu is being very liberal when it comes to taking advice on this thread. At first, people had reasonable complaints about Talon's new state, like a bit of range on Q or giving E a utility-passive component so it's not entirely useless in lane. Now I see so many people incessantly complaining about this rework in so many skewed ways, as if Talon needs to be radically different from all of the other assassins (and yet this contradicts everyone's near-unanimous need for Talon to have a blink, just like almost EVERY OTHER ASSASSIN), needs to be cometitively viable, and needs to have the old and unfair mechanics he has now on live. I've kind of given up on most of this thread in terms of feedback that will make Talon fun and NOT BROKEN OP. First off, Talon is NOT going to be 100% unique, not many champions are; there's going to be some overlap as a guarantee. Assassins, in their very nature, are quite binary, since their whole purpose depends on the existence and elimination of a squishy carry. They all are designed around this concept, so it's hard to expect uniqueness apart from aesthetics, personality/lore, and a small handful narrow kit mechanics or concepts. Second, most assassins are currently BARELY cometitive (at best) because of the first point, and other champs and roles can do what assassins do and more, making the need for assassins being pro material to be moot. Viktor, for example, is a mage that has burst, mobility, roaming potential, and can shut down many midlaners, like an assassin, but he also brings range, safety, fast waveclear, CC, AOE, and many other things that would be unhealthy on a fast-paced and dangerous assassin like Talon. Third, the fact that Talon's current E blink is being removed and his W being delayed is opening up so much room to balance Talon in more healthy and mechanical ways. Riot has literally dubbed the phenomenon "The Talon Effect", where a champion only has a high winrate because its low playrate is almost entirely made up of mains and OTP's, and it was always hard to balance Talon because he was so easy to break or be made broken by his extremely binary and 90% damage-based kit. Because of his kit currently being damage focused, if Talon wasn't a spellcaster, he would be in the same state as autoattack focused melees like Yi, XIn, or Trynd, where the most realiable and safest way to balance them is only by numbers, which is a very shakey method of balance. Finally, there's no "outplay" in one spell that puts you directly behind your opponent the instant you cast it, contrary to what many people are saying. Once again, it's binary. Either the opponent saved CC and fired it behind him right after your blink, or he panic-burned it and died for making one mistake in the heat of the moment. Granted, mistakes should be punished, but this kind of mistake is one that isn't one worth learning from during that game that you died to Talon in, because once he kills you in lane, he's just going to snowball so hard that saving your CC and doing it right next time won't matter. The snowballing from one mistake will let him blow you up even more easily. With other assassins like Fizz, he may hit his shark on you, and your probable death will most likely snowball him, but next time he throws that shark, you can dodge it, and you still have a chance to fight back after (so long as your team doesn't snowball him too when he roams).
: He can *dash* with Q, **not** blink, which means he loses his most powerful damage ability. W and R both do less damage than live, so your only good burst skill is melee range Q. And it's got shorter range and slower speed than current Talon's E, not to mention you now absolutely need to autoattack after your combo, else the bleed doesn't proc. Don't forget that his E is only useful for getting close to the target's general location. You can't chase with it, since all it takes is the enemy dashing over a wall you have already used, and E is totally useless. So your only gapcloser is your main burst skill, and you have to choose one or the other, either failing to get to the target or getting to them and lacking the burst to finish them off. It's not like his R is up so often that you can use it to position next to the carry in every fight. Add to that the fact that his W is slower than live and only the second part slows, while dealing less damage than live too, and that you absolutely need to land both parts *and* Q to proc your passive, if R is not available... It doesn't seem like the options are so abundant. You use E on walls to position roughly behind the squishies. You jump the wall and you need to get to them fast. So you... 1. ...use Q on them, followed up by W and R. _R does less damage than the Q crit_, and so you simply lack the damage to finish them off. You probably die, and the passive may or may not score the kill. 2. ...use R to get into melee range. The enemies group up around the carries, and you may or may not manage to get the kill / the passive proc depending on their positioning and how fed you are. You will most definitely die, but you might get the kill if you got close enough with R. 3. ...try to find a wall right next to the target in order to have both Q and R available for the guaranteed kill. However if the target is Lucian, Tristana, Caitlyn, the Kindred, Corki or ANY ONE of the numerous mobile mid laners, they can just jump over the same wall you just crossed and they're completely safe from you - and you're right in the middle of their team with no nearby wall jumps available.
> [{quoted}](name=Drakarys,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=003b00000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-22T00:38:59.621+0000) > > So your only gapcloser is your main burst skill, and you have to choose one or the other, either failing to get to the target or getting to them and lacking the burst to finish them off. This seems to be a common misconception. Early, yes, Q it your ticket to damage, and it may be unreliable. But look at its scaling, then compare it to the 180% AD RATIO ON PASSIVE. That is INSANE when you get some AD. This is where the damage comes from mid and late game.
: Problem is... his combat tools are still very binary, they pretty much combined his old E and Q into one new spell with shorter range and a slower dash speed. I think blinks were part of the assassin's identity, since they rely on killing a target quickly while avoiding CC. Without his blink Talon is very vulnerable because he has no tools to escape CC or skillshots. He kinda feels like a fighter with better than average damage.
> [{quoted}](name=YouGonnaGetLoved,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=004a00000000,timestamp=2016-10-21T18:29:47.243+0000) > > I think blinks were part of the assassin's identity, since they rely on killing a target quickly while avoiding CC. That's the thing, the whole deal with playing Talon even on live (hell, even any assassin) is you need to be ideally the last in the fight and watch for key CC's getting burned. Blinks don't help with this unless you actively use the blink to dodge a skillshot. Some CC is point and click too, and a blink won't change that when attacking the ADC. In laning it's a similar idea. It's not the same for all matchups but it's close enough when it comes to saving CC's and predicting Talon all in. Take the TF example from what I spoke of earlier in the thread. When a good TF sees that you're commiting to your E, and he locks in gold card, what is blink going to do? E will put you directly behind him guaranteed, so all he needs to do is aa behind himself as you come close and you're a sitting duck for x seconds. This is why I can't stress enough in ANY matchup against an experienced/smart player, bait CC's and play mindgames. The strength of a champion can vary WILDLY depending on how you take advantage of (or don't take advantage of) these tools that only exist in players' patterns and minds. The only difference is it's faster than a dash, and for a point and click, INSTANT blink, it leaves little room for counterplay, with the enemy ADC's only option being "stay out of range or die before you or team can react".
: You can bait bronze and silver player but not high elo my friend ;)
> [{quoted}](name=Black Gyver,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=004e,timestamp=2016-10-21T17:39:15.700+0000) > > You can bait bronze and silver player but not high elo my friend ;) Not true. look at Dopa/Apdo, a classic example of a mindgames player. Granted, he is seriously gifted, but I'm not talking about taking advantage of mistakes or stupidity of low elo, I'm talking about psychologically messing with your opponent by being unreadable and unpredictable, all the while predicting enemy patterns as well.
: His laning phase is not even close the same.Try to lane against Veigar with his new kit,with his old E you could counter Veigars cage now if you Q you will be stunnend,the same with tf Talon was a hatd counter to Twisted now he is uselss against him too.Talon counters no champ he is just food.
> [{quoted}](name=Black Gyver,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=004c,timestamp=2016-10-21T15:03:14.972+0000) > > His laning phase is not even close the same.Try to lane against Veigar with his new kit,with his old E you could counter Veigars cage now if you Q you will be stunnend,the same with tf Talon was a hatd counter to Twisted now he is uselss against him too.Talon counters no champ he is just food. For both of these examples I find it really easy to just bait out the CC, lol. TF's will often burn W for waveclear, mana, or panic-set a stun if you get close. Veigar can panic stun too. It's alarming how little mindgames are used or considered. Besides, the whole kit has a new focus on roaming. Adapt to the new kit, don't make it try to fit to the old one. Fair game if you don't like it, it's your opinion, but I don't realistically think Riot will spend more time changing his spells drastically, as it presumably takes a lot of time to code these spells, as well as debug them.
: No major updates for today, but a few usability changes: * E tooltip now includes that the spell has a max range * Some minor fixes to make small E jumps always go at least some distance (~350 units). * moved the cooldown indicator color change to start in the last 30 seconds of the cooldown (instead of the last 10). Still monitoring overall assassination effectiveness (ability to access target / up front burst), especially in the late game. I know there are concerns over this, and I'm definitely not sure it's in the spot it should be in, so I'll be keeping a close eye on this.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=0043,timestamp=2016-10-20T20:34:35.317+0000) > > No major updates for today, but a few usability changes: > > * E tooltip now includes that the spell has a max range > * Some minor fixes to make small E jumps always go at least some distance (~350 units). > * moved the cooldown indicator color change to start in the last 30 seconds of the cooldown (instead of the last 10). > > Still monitoring overall assassination effectiveness (ability to access target / up front burst), especially in the late game. I know there are concerns over this, and I'm definitely not sure it's in the spot it should be in, so I'll be keeping a close eye on this. Just a quick question about E animation, when I first tried it out, I remember Talon rolling after landing some of the big jumps to break his fall. This was a really awesome touch that a lot of people on r/Talonmains appreciated, but last game I played today before the maintenence, I didn't see any rolls. Maybe I wasn't jumping the right walls to make the leap big enough, but was this taken out?
: Cluttered boards do not help. How are we as testers (or Rioters for that matter) supposed to look for something when there's 100+ threads to look through?
> [{quoted}](name=Amy Sery,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=9xN9XJ6t,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-20T12:55:27.456+0000) > > Cluttered boards do not help. How are we as testers (or Rioters for that matter) supposed to look for something when there's 100+ threads to look through? If there's 100+ posts about stopping bans for test material, maybe it means something...
: 1) Totally an option. If Talon is on the weaker side, but not in the damage department or especially when behind, this is a good place to add power. 2) This is intended, but admittedly it might be a bit short. The goal is that Talon has to use his E to get in position for his Q. He has better flanking tools than practically anybody else, so he should depend on them to get to his target. 3) Yeahhhh I feel you on this one. At the end of the day, this was just a line we discovered we couldn't cross. There's a certain length of terrain that, if crossable, made nearly impossible to play against.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2016-10-18T22:41:37.845+0000) > > 1) Totally an option. If Talon is on the weaker side, but not in the damage department or especially when behind, this is a good place to add power. > > 2) This is intended, but admittedly it might be a bit short. The goal is that Talon has to use his E to get in position for his Q. He has better flanking tools than practically anybody else, so he should depend on them to get to his target. > > 3) Yeahhhh I feel you on this one. At the end of the day, this was just a line we discovered we couldn't cross. There's a certain length of terrain that, if crossable, made nearly impossible to play against. For 2) (this is totally a shot in the dark) why not have Talon's Q range slightly increase after he uses E? It rewards him for potentially getting a good flank off, and there is no realistic opportunity to abuse this in lane, so it can keep his in lane trades shorter range.
: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
@Riot Stashu I've only been able to play one game so far (there REALLY needs to be a way to disable banning reworked champs on pbe), but here are my first impressions: -the E is absolutely AMAZING. However, I feel like the information this spell provides is limited for such a situationally flexible (oxymoron?) spell. I had encountered an issue where I don't really know the spell's limits in terms of how far I can jump, or how much of the wall will be disabled when I jump it, although this is limited to the larger walls. Also, it feels...not bad, but uncomfortable to have to walk directly to the wall so I'm practically hugging it, and THEN jump it. It makes me lose focus of spells I have to dodge in a tense escape scenario. -I need to play some more games to get a better feel for this, but the kit's damage seems...lackingfor an assassin, by just a bit. It may be because Q will most often be used to gapclose rather than go for the 150% damage melee crit, as walking up to a target is not realistic. Again, I haven't played enough yet to be sure, I would ideally like to make a follow-up post tomorrow. -Q range: some people are ok with it, and some want it slightly buffed. While I will admit that it would feel better if buffed, with it being a predictable dash rather than a blink, it could make him too strong if OVERbuffed. Just a note. Also, auto-Q-auto-thunderlords is obnoxious to say the least, because of its extreme speed. While it should definetly be fixed, I hope it will stil be reliable in a trade/all-in, where it's fast enough to not be clunky, but slow enough that there's time to react. On the buggy side, Q cooldown refund seems to not always work. Once again, need to test more, but being a key source of damage, sustain, and mobility, it hurts to have it be unreliable in it's CD, even if it becomes low with enough CDR. Other than that, he's amazing. I haven't had this much fun with my main in years, ever since I started maining him in the beginning of S3. Good stuff.
: New Ashe and Infinity Edge Bug
20% crit (IE) + 35% crit (PD) = 55% crit, then 55% + half of crit score* (55/2 = ~27) = ~83% *It's already been confirmed by RiotRepertoir that IE on new Ashe effectively raised crit dmg by 50%. I think for the sake of clarity, Riot should change the IE passive's tooltip to "raises critical damage by 50%" or something along those lines.
: PBE Patcher Size Problem
I've got the same problem, I guess I don't mind too much since the play button is still there, but its annoying to have to right-click the icon in the taskbar every time i want to close it... and I'm sure it will cause problems for me later. Rito, pls ficks! D:
Rioter Comments
: Let's talk about the Talon E changes.
The silence removal actually isn't the worst thing that could happen to Talon AS LONG AS HE GETS PROPERLY COMPENSATED FOR IT if you think about it. I kinda disagree with the stun, even if it is small, since it's a bit more oppressive than the silence. Now Talon will just need more skill to play, like dodging Ahri charm by E'ing onto her when she casts it at you. Still, a smart player will just save the CC for when a Talon gets impatient and will CC him then.
: And yet it's more toxic than silence is, still. You can't autoattack, move, use summoners, or anything. It's just as bad as a full blown stun or knockup. I'm glad you see my point :)
That's why Ahri's charm is a skillshot. Also, Banshee's does the trick (not on Talon, I mean just in general), and there's MS, so just...dodge it. Talon's silence on the other hand is point-and-click. Sure, it does no damage, and the silence is only 1 second, but we're talking about the CC here. Don't get me wrong, I think the 0.25 second slow is kinda useless, but losing the silence isn't the worst thing that can happen as long as Talon gets PROPERLY compensated for it.
: About the talon changes!
Rito, please don't make such a horrible change to Talon. The slow is barely useable, and he needs some way to deal with AP mids. Morg-style shield, spell shield, 0.5ish second CC immunity, ANYTHING small but worth enough to let Talon do his job. Look at all of the other assassins in the game. Fizz has the troll pole, Zed has his shadows, LeBlanc has her W reactivation... Talon will immediately get CC'ed if he tries to jump in. Classic example: Ahri will get wrecked by Talon if she lets him get a lead. Talon will typically use his standard combo fast enough so that he probably won't get charmed in the middle of it. Now, if he jumps on her, Ahri will just say: "99% slow? IDC, C'MERE!" and charm him at point blank range. This will happen with almost all other mid laners he used to have a chance against.
Rioter Comments
: [Bug LoLGame Client] [Sound engine] Sound engine failure after sound repeating bug
I had the same problem yesterday, but I thought it was the Karthus Wall I ran through or the Dragonslayer Mantheon skin. I also experienced this bug when an enemy Nidalee bot died and the "An enemy has been slain" voice went off, repeating the last syllable of "slain". Also happened in mid lane for me.
Rioter Comments
: Intermediate Bots Available In Custom Games
I LOVE this update, now i actually feel like I'm having fun when I'm playing against bots in a custom game. I was so used to mindlessly diving in that I actually died a couple of times, which I'm ironically happy about.

cobard

Level 30 (PBE)
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