: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: God Staff Jax!
I really like this skin a lot, but I feel like it could be so much better if the time were devoted to make it a Legendary skin (of which Jax has none, mind you). It would also be fitting, considering that the other God skin we have is God Fist Lee Sin, and that's a Legendary. I love the extra arms that come out during the recall animation. Seeing that really sparked some ideas about how that could be incorporated into additional attack animations for a legendary, especially if these animations began to come out as he gains attack speed with his passive (and items). Awesome skin, but when I heard the standard voice overs, I did get a little disappointed.
: Okay. I went and dug into this, here's my conclusion: WQ double cast is 'technically' a bug in data authoring of Q, and how the game buffers the spell casts. I actually accidentally fixed the data during dev, and had to undo it for the preservation of the double cast. As a reminder, we are not interested in removing any combos with the work we are doing here. Once I finish integrating all the changes, I'll look into how to properly author this properly. For now, time it ;)
> I'll look into how to **properly ** author this **properly**. I giggled.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Demon Vi!
Does anyone else feel like Vi's voice doesn't fit in this skin? She's far too upbeat in her inflections to sound demonic. The skin looks really cool, but her voice doesn't fit the model very well.
: > To me, that is where the flaw existed in hybrid itemization design. I don't think any special consideration should be given to these items just for being hybrid. The catch should be that they are good only if you can actually use all of the stats on them, but if not then you should be shooting yourself in the foot because the item should not be efficient for those champions. If they're not better than other items - why would you buy them as a hybrid? Because they exist? Furthermore - if this item is good on you and not particularly efficient - what does that say about your AD or AP ratios and your ability to use other items? We could easily make a 1800 gold item that gave 40 AP and 25 AD. For this item to be equivalent to 80 AP or 50 AD - your AP and AD ratios have to **be equal to other character's high AD and AP ratios** innately. Which means that you scale equally well with this item as any other item - regardless of whether it had AD or AP. Which then boils down to - why do you purchase the hybrid item to begin with? In what way is it stronger than others? Because if it provides you a non-stat but still a damage spike - it is guaranteed that you will be balanced around said spike and the same damage effects would occur. You can sidestep this dilemma by stating that hybrid champions would buy this to get access to some other form of utility or sideways benefit that the other items don't provide. However, in this world - hybrid champions can already use literally **every item** in the game outside of penetration items well. Penetration items don't carry a ton of utility - due to their natural advantage of murdering squishy targets. Penetration is also a form of damage spike which I'll address later. Going back to this hybrid item existing as a form of utility - They can already pick and choose the best actives and passives out of the categories - so then it wraps straight back to - why does this need to exist? Why isn't the strength of a hybrid champion already the ability to pick the best items in every conceivable category and use them well? Compound this with the damage efficiency curves - You'll want to also have a look at the multiplicative items in AD and AP. AD has Crit, AS and Lifesteal - as well as other neat things like Hydra. AP has Deathcap as well as other items with AP Ratios on them. Therefore - what you'll tend to see is that, because other paths have **delayed multiplicative synergies** to them - that usually going straight down AD or AP will be highly preferable to getting a mix of the two statistics - due to the multiplicative power of other items in their ecosystem. The real crux of this problem comes down to the fact that skills have linear - rather than exponential ratios. Thus - unless the hybrid item is primarily utility centric - it's not going to have a strong place in either of these builds - because a build full of hybrids with no late multipliers is going to suck - that's not even getting into the problem of defending against hybrid champions innately sucks in the mid-game. You could try to solve this by giving all hybrid characters scaling AD or AP ratios - but again - that lowers their midgame and early-game power spike potential dramatically as in the current case. > In the late game, tanks are likely to have ~130 magic resist and ~180 armor (at least, I always tend to have more armor than MR). At that point, hybrid itemization isn't as useful because you have no way to effectively cut through the resistance of your opponent. This heavily presumes that the role of hybrid is to be able to cleanup and sweep through teams. This assumes that hybrid characters end up as carry classes - rather than either Assassin or Utility classes. But let's brush that aside, while it is true that your damage potential falls off - you ignore the fact that you've been incredibly hard to itemize up till now - as all your opponent's purchases have had half effect on lowering your damage thus far. Then you introduce guaranteed late game damage for these characters - opponents' itemization options will be inefficient in the early, middle or late game. Since you are most likely guaranteed a late game and early purchases have minimal effects - I'm not sure what the effects that would have - but I would assume that you're either going to keep a poor late game - or your mid-game will have to be nerfed to compensate for the fact that you'll never really fall off in the damage curve. (Which then brings you back to exactly the same outcome as introducing a high spike item and lowered ratios would do.) **Edit:** Note that there is actually a fairly reasonable answer to the 'why should hybrid characters get a special utility that is only good on them' than other characters - if their kits are so constrained that they need a specific hybrid utility function to be able to function. This becomes simply a analogue to the damage case - just in utility.
Thanks for the response Xyph; I appreciate the time you took. I'm a little late coming back to the thread (work/family/vacation time). One thing I want to comment on though is this notion that there is no multiplicative scaling for Hybrids. I disagree. On some champions, attack speed greatly benefits the AD and AP they purchase, which is why back in the day Guinsoo's Rageblade and Nashor's Tooth were such strong items for Kayle. That being said, the same amount of multiplication doesn't exist for Hybrids as it does for pure AP and AD characters. That much is correct, but that doesn't mean that said scaling can't exist and using it as an excuse not to include these types of build paths isn't really a viable argument. An item could exist that works like the old Kayle passive, increasing AD based on AP and vice versa. Combined with attack speed and CDR, that is relatively similar to other forms of multiplicative scaling. In the current framework of the game, such scaling is limited, which has caused the balance problems you've mentioned above. But I think it's a lack of hybrid options more than anything else. As for why you would want to build this way, there are a number of reasons. For instance, a Hybrid champion gives you much more flexibility in different roles. We have already seen a lot of Corki mid, and now AP Ezreal is becoming a thing. Hybrid items would benefit both of these champions greatly (and I think Bjergsen actually did grab Gunblade yesterday). Being able to put a mixed damage dealer into a role that normally favors either heavy magic or physical damage allows you different options in other roles. Even when he builds AP, Ezreal's Mystic Shot steal deals a huge chunk of physical damage. In that sense, he is much like Evelynn, who deals mostly magic damage with abilities, but still can put out large amounts of physical damage. (AP Ezreal is an anomaly to me though. People are using his ultimate's huge damages to chunk champions down to <25% HP, not because they want some form of hybrid damage on their team). So to further expand on my reasoning, I think Hybrid builds should be an option for champions with AP and AD ratios that cast spells as frequently and also want to land their auto-attacks, all while deal equal amounts of physical and magic damage. Just because the items don't currently exist which would make these play patterns viable doesn't mean that they can't. If hybrid champions were to be supported and were also balanced properly, what do you think they would need?
  Rioter Comments
: Hm... that's an interesting point. I'm not working on Runeglaive directly but I'll bring that up. The only thing I can think of is the fact that most units generally have less MR than Armor (some jungle monsters have negative MR, for example) - and that might be where the difference is coming from.
I'm an Engineer by trade and an old WoW theorycrafter, so getting dirty with the numbers is kind of my wheelhouse. It just struck me as strange when I first read the item description, and in playing around with it a little bit it was kinda confirmed. You don't *feel* noticeably stronger than when you have just a Sheen. Maybe the power is budgeted into the AoE proc as some other people have suggested, but it still feels weaker than Iceborn Gauntlets and Runeglaive should probably be stronger earlier than it is later before grouping to give it some parity with Warrior. I'm also not sure what it's range is, but it doesn't seem to be particularly large. That's a clarity thing I'm sure will get addressed though. Thanks again.
: [5.13] Core AP Items Pass
Hey Xyph, I've noticed a few people have commented on Runeglaive already, but there is one thing I wanted to address very specifically. When you upgrade to Runeglaive, you lose the 100% Base AD proc and it's replaced with a 75% Base Auto + 30% AP. For most junglers this ends up not being an upgrade in damage, and in some cases it results in almost no net gain unless you are running a full set of AP Runes (+26 AP with Glyphs/Quints), and even that is only about 5 extra damage. If you run with only +15 AP, which is more common among bruisers like Diana and Elise, you actually lose damage by upgrading to Runeglaive. I'm not trying to discount the added bonus of the AoE effect (which I do hope gets a particle of some kind), or the mana return, but is that really enough to justify what is essentially a side-grade in single target damage? Even Warrior gets more AD (15, I think?) than just a Brutalizer. And while the AoE effect is neat, I'm not really sure anyone even wants it. Most AP junglers don't have issues clearing camps if they have the mana to use, which this item ensures. I'm not trying to nitpick the item, but it does feel less impactful when you first pick it up than I would expect. (As opposed to when I get Warrior/Cinderhulk, I do feel much stronger.)
: This was before I noticed the update on the original post. ;) Runeglaive has another issue though in that your AA's require spells to proc the spell blade. If I'm playing eve and kiting with my Q, I may not be AAing that much. If I'm human elise, my spells are on a longer cooldown so she isn't quite a spammer. Jungle Nidalee... may like the change, but she's going to feel the costs. D-cap and void staff are going up in cost and the few AP junglers are going to feel that more than mid-laners. Yes it's only 400 more GP total for two items but seeing as they are core on all AP champs, the ones in the lanes that don't have as much money are going to feel that pinch more. I mean yes you are trying to add some variety to builds, but all AP damage dealers need D-cap and Void staff. That's not going away. So jungle Eve and Nidalee or support Zyra, Annie, Soraka or Sona are going to feel that pinch more.
I don't want to sound rude here, but if you're not weaving autoattacks as Eve, you're doing something wrong. Ravage gives her an AS steroid for a reason. She has a speed boost (2 different types in fact) to keep up with targets while she's landing those auto attacks. Yes, you can use Hate Spikes while you're kiting, but that shouldn't be your primary play pattern...
: unless you plan on jungleing a highranged poke mage, there should be no big problem on useing the spellblade active.(well, fiddle probably hast to go cinderhulk now...) However i agree on the numbers though. It should really be 100%(if not 125%) base ad. And imo it should grant mana also vs champs, not only monsters, else you would still need aditionally manasustain for the laterstages of the game on most champs. In a standoff or drawn out teamfight you will run out off mana whil not haveing an opportunity to strike jungle monsters. I'm also not opposed to even more buffs, like %max instead off missing mana, or 10 ap more...wouldn't mind to pay a few hundret bucks more if it therefor delivers a bit better mid-lategame.
Couple things... The price point of the jungle enchantments is fixed. All enchants cost the same total gold amount, Machete + Upgrade is 850 gold and the Enchantment components plus the combine is 1400 gold. That's not changing. The debate on whether or not the gold value for the item is equivalent to that of others can be left to their balance team, but the drop off in power does exist (which I find suspicious), and so it's something I wanted to bring up. It scales worse than Lich Bane, but it's cheaper than Lich Bane (it's basically a mini-Lich Bane with mana regen). All in all, it's a good item... ....If you can use Lich Bane. Some champions can't. That's my only concern.
Rioter Comments
: > dafuq? The current SotAG doesn't have armor. Or tenacity... Current version (on live) of SotAG builds out of Quill Coat, which builds out of Cloth Armor. If we're trying to have a discussion, you should probably set your facts straight first.
You're right, I stand corrected. (Although you don't need to be a dick about it.) But it's not like you actually read or addressed anything I was saying regardless. Since your comment still had nothing to do with my point. The armor isn't the problem I have with the item to begin with. It's more about the fact that the item is better for bruisers than tanks and makes your build path more one dimensional. If you want a tank item from your jungle slot, it's not giving you more build options to include tenacity. And again... **tenacity is a better stat on bruisers than tanks**. But keep pidgeon holing arguments you don't like if that's your perogative.
: This guy is one of my holy triads of agreement (posts on everything and posts intelligently, usually with stats) and the whole problem with a garen gank (provides no CC beyond L.E. buff) is that he's so tanky that the tower doesn't matter while his fighter/mage counterpart is damaging them... because most people suffer from Hit the guy under tower/closest to me syndrome in laning phase... so Garen will literally tank you to death... easily. EDIT: garen is an example not infallible.
Tower dives require coordination, even more so with the upcoming changes to make that more difficult. So while I'm not going to completely dismiss your claim, it's an issue that will already be dealt with. Playstyles and patterns that require two people to coordinate their efforts to overcome challenges should be encouraged. They open up the opportunity to exploit their misplays. Regardless of what a tank does, without the follow up from a teammate they cannot be successful. I think this is part of the problem with tank junglers right now, tbh. Before they had so little gold across the board that they had to buy things on a budget, and offensive items were more difficult for them to obtain than defensive ones. That's not the case anymore, so the option to go offensive exists. Particularly in a solo queue environment, it's harder for a tank to be successful because they require follow up from someone else. That coordination is weak in ranked because rarely do people exhibit that coordination (even some pro teams struggle with it). So yes, a tank can be effective, but not without a team behind you to actually take advantage of their utility.
: > But why does experience also need to be tied into whether a camp is smote or not? Buffs last 90 seconds. Smite cooldown is 60 seconds. This way you can't have all the buffs up at once and have to carefully choose which ones are you going to use. Otherwise, at some point the speed clearing junglers like Udyr and Yi would keep 2, 3 or even 4 buffs at once, indefinitely. Also, this prevents the laners from getting the buff. Imagine toplaner with the Gromp buff. Hell, that shit is so strong that I could even see toplaners getting Smite just to get an edge in level 1/2 - you don't have to kill Gromp to get the buff. > What I don't like is how the tank item comes with Armor and Tenacity. First of all, Tenacity is better on bruisers than it is on tanks. Stop right there. Tenacity is important on **both**. A kited tank will be just as useless a kited bruiser. Notice how not only bruisers have anti-CC abilities (Olaf's ultimate, Irelia's passive), but so do tanks (Sejuani's passive). Actually, some of the tanks lost their free Tenacity because it was so overwhelming (Zac, Singed). > Armor restricts you from buying Ninja Tabis and the Tenacity really restricts you from buying Merc Treads. ...what? Does the current {{item:3207}} SotAG restrict any tank jungler from getting Ninja Tabi? Not at all. Tenacity doesn't "restrict" you from buying Merc Treads, it **frees you from having to buy them**. With Tenacity on Juggernaut, you can get Mobis, Tabi, or even Sorc Shoes. If you wanted Mercs for MR, you can get just as much MR as they give on live from the buffed Null-Magic Mantle (25 MR, 500 gold) and then build it into anything you want to. > You don't kill someone by tanking them to death (usually). Actually the problem with old SotAG that gave 500 HP and Tenacity was that it made junglers like Vi and Elise unkillable towerdiving monsters.
> > But why does experience also need to be tied into whether a camp is smote or not? > > Buffs last 90 seconds. Smite cooldown is 60 seconds. This way you can't have all the buffs up at once and have to carefully choose which ones are you going to use. What? That's completley unrelated to the quote you asked. Experience is tied directly to your Smite ability. That means when you use smite on something that is not a monster camp (Player for instance), you are forced into giving up guaranteed experience and gold for potential experience in gold. Sure you could use the ability to secure a kill, but both Smites provide bonuses that don't encourage that use when used on players (one gives bonus on hit damage, the other slows the target). > > What I don't like is how the tank item comes with Armor and Tenacity. First of all, Tenacity is better on bruisers than it is on tanks. > > Stop right there. Tenacity is important on **both**. A kited tank will be just as useless a kited bruiser. Notice how not only bruisers have anti-CC abilities (Olaf's ultimate, Irelia's passive), but so do tanks (Sejuani's passive). Actually, some of the tanks lost their free Tenacity because it was so overwhelming (Zac, Singed). > > > Armor restricts you from buying Ninja Tabis and the Tenacity really restricts you from buying Merc Treads. > > ...what? > > Does the current {{item:3207}} SotAG restrict any tank jungler from getting Ninja Tabi? Not at all. Tenacity doesn't "restrict" you from buying Merc Treads, it **frees you from having to buy them**. With Tenacity on Juggernaut, you can get Mobis, Tabi, or even Sorc Shoes. If you wanted Mercs for MR, you can get just as much MR as they give on live from the buffed Null-Magic Mantle (25 MR, 500 gold) and then build it into anything you want to. dafuq? The current SotAG doesn't have armor. Or tenacity... I think you've completely missed my point so I'll put this point another way. Let's say you want to build tanky. You want to get some health items, then pick up some armor and MR to make that health more effective. With armor and tenacity on your jungle item, you're going to have to go somewhere other than your boots to pick up a little bit of early MR. Before, it was really convenient. Merc Treads are a really cost efficient item. Now, you actually don't want merc treads and the tank jungle item. You'll have to build another set of boots (Mobis, Swiftness, or double up on early Armor). On top of that, you'll have to grab MR from another source. My preliminary guess is that people would go for an Aegis because again, health, MR, efficient, and it's got a nice aura. The whole point I'm trying to make here is that the combination of Armor and Tenacity on one item really steers your build path away from other options. > > You don't kill someone by tanking them to death (usually). > > Actually the problem with old SotAG that gave 500 HP and Tenacity was that it made junglers like Vi and Elise unkillable towerdiving monsters. Vi and Elise are bruisers. They benefit the most from Tenacity and chunks of flat health. This was covered in my thread and it's one of the reseaons SotAG doesn't have those stats anymore. The scaling health was put in specifically to make the item more appealing to true tanks who do want to have 1000+ bonus health from their items. I don't see why you're even bringing this up. If you want to make the argument that Vi and Elise are tanks, compare their capabilities and play patterns to guys like Nautilus and Maokai, who are real tanks.
Rioter Comments
: I wouldn't mind them, if the 2 sides wouldn't already be that different. Top vs Bot ganking path differences are already huge and so is baron vs dragon positioning. Also first pick vs last pick (first pick is too good). In the end you want an early snowballing bot lane on blue or a strong snowballing top in purple and a defensive, safe pick on the other sides. You can not really play what you want, because the bigger the differences are, the more you have to look at what side you are playing on instead of playing what you think is a good strat overall. So it limits the possible picks, counter picks and strats instead of increasing the possibilities.
I don't see it that way. I think that using the map to come up with a viable strategy should be apart of the game. If every champion filled the same strategic playstyle, only the strongest champions in those roles get played (that's how things are now). With these changes, you could run Leona/Ezreal on the blue side into a Kog/Nami lane because you would have an edge with your jungler. So instead of picking the Kog/Nami you might opt for something more defensive like a Janna or Thresh. This type of strategy doesn't really exist in game at the moment. The same thing works for top lane. You have the option of running a scaling champ top on the red side like Nasus or Jax because in a 2v2 situation, you'd be stronger. Furthermore, the jungler you pick would really make a difference in that situation. Basically, there's more of an interaction with picking champions. The mindset that every champion should be playable/viable in every situation doesn't really work because the it's only the strongest who matter.
: I'm sure they did do it intentionally, but it should not work that way in an actual game. As it stands, you are forced to be reliant on using smite in the early levels, then hardly not at all in the late levels as the jungle does not scale very high or fast for that matter. If you are forced to choose as to whether or not to farm or gank, making it a requirement to clear 3 large monsters in order to use the champion damage ability is a backwards way of accomplishing it as it then requires you to farm in order to gank, and to survive farming with most gank junglers in the early game, you need to use your smite on the monsters as you can only afford 2 potions to start. So by simply changing the spell to be cast by the item, you can alieviate that pressure on the jungler, who is already having a rougher start than we have now to begin with.
You're connecting to issues that I think should be separated. Jungle sustian is an issue right now, and I'm sure that's going to be tinkered with as we approach the actual season. This is only the first pass through on the PBE. For now, you might need to use Smite on a monster just to clear faster and be more sustainable in the jungle (both in Health and Mana). That doesn't mean it's always the case. Furthermore, the decision on whether or not to use Smite on a camp or a player should come with trade offs. "Do I need Smite to ensure this gank works? Should I clear faster now so I can be stronger later or do I need to put pressure on lanes?" Those questions aren't tied to your ability to clear camps with high health. While we're on the topic of camp clearing, I personally think that junglers NEED to be at lower HP levels. Remember when Yi, Xin, and Udyr could come out of the jungle with a Feral Flare and be the strongest person on the map after 20 minutes? That's due to the fact that there was no real way to handle them. Getting a kill on those junglers was really difficult because the camps were no threat and everyone was sitting at ~90% HP. Now there's an actually danger of the other jungler finding and killing you while you're hard farming your jungle. I think that risk needs to be there, just as it is in lane.
: I would also like to point out another potential issue specifically with the Gank Item "Stalkers Blade" and it's spell "Destruction". In it's current form the additional spell that lets you do damage to enemy champions is directly tied to Smite itself, so if Smite is on cooldown (which is now 60 seconds again) then you cannot use the ability. Most gank junglers do their ganks really heavy in the early to mid game, which is also when you need smite for survival the most. So I made a suggestion in my post [Here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/AE0EyVuh-stalkers-blade-and-destruction) that suggests moving that particular spell from being tied to smite and smites cooldown, to being tied to the jungle item and be casted from the item and having it's own cooldown, this would make balancing the spell itself easier, while also allowing for gank based players to farm at least a camp or two before ganking and still being able to gank.
I believe they have intentionally tied Smite to the Destruction spell to force you into choosing how you want to spend your time. The ability to snowball lanes and get other people an advantage should have some costs and benefits associated with it. If the Jungler is forced to smite a player, that makes the decision more important because it won't be up later. Likewise, when you're clearing, you can't just blow smite if you plan on relying on it. Smite actually has to be relevant as a summoner spell now, almost like Flash/Ignite/Heal. It's not just a mindless "Use-if-up" thought process.
: 1. Most tank junglers are even more horrible now. No sustain, long fights in the jungle, really bad mana costs. Offensive junglers are better, especially in the mid and late game clears, where tank junglers need a huge amount of mana and time while offensive junglers clear fast, with less mana costs and at the same time, they also lose less HP because of the shorter fight duration. 2. Golems and Wight camp will be the new starting options, because there you can still get some help from bot or top lane, which can allow you to clear two camps before red or blue instead of only one. The timer would need to be 2:00 to prevent that from happening or more early, around 1:45-1:50 to allow 2 camps to be cleared in time with or without help. No real disadvantage for the jungler, because red or blue will only spwan at 2:30. Till then you actually have some free time. 3. Sustain is not good enough. Probably 10-12 HP reg when fighting in the jungle and 15 on the upgrade. Especially important for tanks. 4. The new extra buffs for junglers: A nice idea, but I don'ht think it is a good one for SR. It makes the map more asymetric, giving blue side a better offensive bot lane gank power and red a counter gank bot lane, and vise versa when ganking top lane. Same with worlfs and wraiths. The duration is too low and the advantage too small to make useful to get and then run to the other side of the map to use it. Reduce it to 2 buffs (the ghost wolve and ghost bird then and the poison armor for golems and wigth). 5. River wraiths: A nice idea, but way too powerful and hard to really fight for. The one that kills is has a pretty long vision buff around drake or baron and a nice speed buff. I like the speed buff for roaming, but the vision is too much. It could be ok to reduce the vision down to the circles buff area (+50-100 range?). But it should not directly scout baron/drake and a big part of the jungle entrance. Some things that don't have to do with the jungle: 1. New Stillwaters Powerup: Good thing, but you should probably channel a crystal for 3-5 seconds to get it and not run over it. 2. Mana reg: 25/50(/75)% on most items is too low. 30/50/75(/100)% should work way better. You currently get 3/7/10/12/(20) mana reg on most items. A lot of AP champs start around 6-8 mana reg and get to 15-18. That would mean only 1.8-2.4 at lvl 1 and 2.7-3.3 around lvl 6 from 30% more base mana reg. The later values with 50% and 75% are around 7.5-9 (50%) and 11-13.5 (75%) mana reg at lvl 18. So mana reg would still be lower in most cases. Only some champs (e.g. GP and Jayce) get up to 20 mana reg late game, or champs that don't build much mana reg. Another option would be, to make faerie charm cost 300g and give 50% mana reg. and go on from that point. But maybe you want to change mana reg on champs and runes/masteries overall, while reducing the effect of mana reg items a bit.
I actually like the asymmetry of the jungle power because it makes you think about how you want to deal with things. I also like how the aggressiveness of the red side is balanced against the defensive nature of the blue side. I think it's a neat concept as long as those two can be balanced.
: I actually found a solution to fixing jungle eve. Take smite ignite Smite the frog for the bonus magic damage, clear wolves then abandon your jungle and just kill the enemy jungler, recall for sight stone and then ward up enemy jungle to kill them again. them having the scout wolf doesnt matter since it cannot see invisible champions, and after two or 3 times of killing the enemy jungler you can start your own main buffs. Yes my solution is don't jungle, until level 5 or 6 off of killing the enemy jungle because eve cannot jungle in this new jung. Luckily the enemy junglers should only have like 200 hp, so a hate spike + ignite guarantees the kill.
That's not a very healthy gameplay pattern though. A situation in which Evelynn always wins because she can always get the drop on you (through stealth) just isn't something I think they'd want to sustain.
: Xin and Nocturne and Udyr all have infinite sustain in the new jungle Diana can do a lvl 4 clear but hurts. Vi can do full clears and still take dragon solo at lvl 7. A lot of the more bursty jungles will have a hard time till they upgrade the machete. I have only tried a few champs in the new jungle so will update this as I go. This is all without a leash. BTW try starting with Golems and skipping razorbacks till lvl 3-4.
Do you mean infinite health sustain? Udyr definitely has mana troubles without blue (but that's expected) until lvl 8 or 9. And I think you're approach is spot on. Smiting Golems, clearing red, then going into blue is probably the most optimal path at the moment. I'm just worried about champions who require blue buff to maintain adequate mana levels. I haven't checked that out (probably will this weekend) quite yet. It could be easier for those champions now that they do get a small amount of sustain from the Machete.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: PBE Bug Megathread - Patcher and Client Landing Page Visual Update
So, I like the direction of this, but I was wondering about a few things. In the Launcher, a lot of the content is inherent to the launcher itself. When you click on things, it brings up the information without sending you to a Riot webpage. However, once you get into the Client, all the nifty pages are just links to the website. I think it'd be a major step forward if we could ultimately have this all integrated into the client. Is that a possibility? Is this the goal?
: Directional keys - New Launcher
I agree. As well as indicators that some of the pages actually have more than one page of content (i.e. the Pentakill video).
: If I am playing Udyr, or Lee Sin, or yes even Jax; and I see from FoW, any champion (nautilis, maokai, rammus etc, and both of us are level 2) with half health they are going to either die or blow flash. Period. If they opt to blow flash and come back with a teammate without backing first. I will already be gone with my prize. You clearly underestimate using the strength of jungle creeps to your advantage when they are more dangerous to your opponent than they are to you. I can't tell you how many times I've done this/had it happen to me and it ruins any potential impact on the early game. You're under leveled, forced to waste gold on more pots and that can make a lot of people straight up rage quit. Also you generally don't solo invade as a utility tank. The point of my argument wasn't "Jax is OP run/hide pls" it's that this update doesn't fix anything for tank junglers who are susceptible to solo invades, which is why they aren't currently viable.
Your point is kinda invalid because any time anyone comes across any enemy jungler at their camps, the advantage always goes to the person not fighting the camp, for a number of reasons. If you find any jungler in their jungle at half health fighting a camp, you should kill them. It doesn't matter who the other jungler is in that situation. It's doubly true for champions like Lee Sin, Udyr, and Xin Zhao who are all ridiculously strong at early levels. Some junglers have better escape options in these situations (Lee Sin), but that's a different matter.
: [ HUD stat bug ] Interface not showing correct movement speed values?
Not a bug. Please investigate the mechanics of the game fully before coming here. [League of Legends Wiki - Move Speed](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Move_Speed) > Movement speed caps >When the raw movement speed is greater than 415, there are two soft caps applied: > >The raw speed between 415 and 490 gets multiplied by 80%. >The raw speed over 490 gets multiplied by 50%.
Rioter Comments
: Rito why you no want me to play Nautilis?
Hyperbole aside... I agree with the fact that this is a small hit to early game jungling (hunters machete lost power and became more expensive...) saying things like you're losing to a Jax invade really hurts your argument because Jax is one of the worst early jungle champions and is so easy to invade early. Also, tenacity is not always required. I skip it regularly as a jungler on champions like Vi, Lee Sin, and others (because the passive 10% auto attack reduction is so much more effective). Less hyperbole, more reality, please...
: I wonder how they're going to alter the active on these items for the other maps. I was playing with a friend not to long ago on TT and he found out he could abuse the active for the free ward... If they take the free ward away, I wonder if they'll just leave it like that, or maybe buff a stat to make up for the ward loss.
I'll be honest.... I never play Twisted Treeline so I can't really speak to any balance issues on that map. But I hate ward actives on jungle items. If I want a ward, I'll buy one. They're kind of a hold over from when Wriggle's was **the** Jungle item, but now with trinkets and what not I find them kinda meh overall.
Rioter Comments
: That's pure bullshit, sorry. The shear math behind that doesn't work in your favor. Let's compare SotEL to SotAG. To get 45 Mp5 while in combat with a camp, you'd have to do a consistent **300 damage per second**. No one reaches that with just your first item, period. At best, you might spike up that high at the very beginning on a champion like Vi, but you're still not going to get as much mana back. All I can say is you simply don't know what you're doing or talking about. No item in the game gives you 45 Mp5, period.
All you've done is proven you just don't know what you're talking about.. Most junglers will back at around level 4 or 5, just after their first clear and lane gank. However, most camps will respawn when the *average level* in the game is level 4. And it doesn't necessarily matter what level they are, because monster health is time dependent anyway. And if you're clearing a camp in under 5 seconds, you're spending way more mana than you get back from the Spirit line... which completely invalidates your entire point. Personally, it seems to me like you just don't know how to jungle.
: I was trying out nautilus and amumu both of which tend to be mana heavy junglers and I was fine the whole time, almost topped off after every camp. I think that the new machette might be a little op with nautilus since I did not have to back at all with just the machette. I had only used 2 pots and forced myself to go back because I had 4k.
What Runes/Masteries were you using and which starting abilities? I had a pretty different experience on Nautilus using a variety of different combinations.
: That's pure bullshit, sorry. The shear math behind that doesn't work in your favor. Let's compare SotEL to SotAG. To get 45 Mp5 while in combat with a camp, you'd have to do a consistent **300 damage per second**. No one reaches that with just your first item, period. At best, you might spike up that high at the very beginning on a champion like Vi, but you're still not going to get as much mana back. All I can say is you simply don't know what you're doing or talking about. No item in the game gives you 45 Mp5, period.
You don't have to, I can do it myself. Let's use the Wolf Camp. You could use any really, it doesn't matter. And let's assume it's sitting at lvl 4 at around 5 minutes into the game. That gives the big wolf 1300 health and the small wolves each about 325. Total comes out to be 1625 (big secret, every camp has about the same health totals). You're going to do about that much damage, maybe a little more, to kill the camp. We'll just call it an even 1700 damage. **3% of that is only 51 mana.** Now, if you can kill the camp in 5.667 seconds, you break even with the **new** SotAG, no accounting the 2-second or so time lapse that it takes for SotAG to wear off. It's probably closer to 4 seconds flat. So yeah, if you can kill a camp with Maokai, Amumu, Sejuani, or Zac in 5 seconds or less, then you're breaking even. That's *probably* not going to happen though. We done here..?
: You're missing the point. Using this item in conjunction with the item with the absolute highest mana regen with a passive that increases mana regen based on how little you have, *I did not have enough mana.* That's ridiculous. It was the same story across the board, though with vary degrees of poor mana regeneration. With spirit stone though? Mana is not a problem. The spirit stone fixed a ton of mana problems junglers had.
That's pure bullshit, sorry. The shear math behind that doesn't work in your favor. Let's compare SotEL to SotAG. To get 45 Mp5 while in combat with a camp, you'd have to do a consistent **300 damage per second**. No one reaches that with just your first item, period. At best, you might spike up that high at the very beginning on a champion like Vi, but you're still not going to get as much mana back. All I can say is you simply don't know what you're doing or talking about. No item in the game gives you 45 Mp5, period.
: It doesn't matter how much it is if it isn't enough. I tested this item on Alistar and bought Mikael's crucible and still didn't have enough mana.
Did you try it on an actual jungler? Because Alistar isn't. Riot has said this on multiple occasions. You really should be informed before you bring discussion here.
: You're right, tank junglers need to blow their mana to clear effectively. For that to happen though, they need to be able to act like they have blue buff when they're jungling. At the moment, the quill coat/ancient golem is the only jungler line that has that problem. Spectral wraith and lizard have their passives, and wriggles works wonders for autoattackers and manaless champs.
Rioter Comments
: Jungle Item Feedback
I wanted to add one thing... There are three problems that tank junglers suffer from early on (as in pre-6) in which case none of these item changes really address/fix. The problem is that they are all intra-dependent, each point will effect the other. 1. They are usually poor duelists with low damage. 2. They have incredibly slow clear times (usually) 3. They are incredibly mana reliant. **Dueling**: For the most part, tank junglers are really awful at early game dueling. Sejuani, Amumu, Maokai, Nautilus, Zac, etc... None of them are great early game duelists and in general if you are playing an aggressive jungler (which most are these days due to the current meta), you're only recourse is to run to your nearest teammate/tower. This is a problem that's never going to go away, so for them to be more viable, one of the other 2 problem areas needs to give. **Clear Times**: With the exception of Dr. Mundo, tank junglers are just very slow clearing champions. Now, they all get a good deal faster with their first completed Jungle item, whichever that may be, but that's generally a 10-minute-ish purchase. I hope you're not still level 6 at that point. Why is that? A couple of reasons really... First of all you don't want Tanks dealing an ass of damage. It would make them extremely oppressive in ganks and even in lanes. Most of them have AoE abilities, but nearly all of them cost mana, and more on that point in a bit. Thankfully, you have a blue buff to rely on for that first clear, usually, but after that you're going to be hurting. Finally, their movespeed. Across the board, these champions tend to make up some of the slowest in the game (poor Nautilus and his 325 base move speed...). Any time you're not spent attacking champions/monsters, you're spent walking around the map. That time *really* adds up and is one of the reasons boots used to be a quick early buy on a lot of junglers (Season 1/2). **Mana Issues**: Now, I get it... Mana is one of the only ways to gate a Tank's power. If they have a full mana bar all the time, they have a **lot** of presence when they come into lanes and team fights. Restricting their mana is about the only way you can control this aside from giving them much longer cooldowns. This is part of the reason why Zac was so powerful last season. He simply didn't have this problem. However... When you have low damage outputs in the jungle, you need to spam your abilities in order to get good clear times. So, unless you're name is Mundo or Zac, you're going to strugle with keeping pace to the likes of Vi, Lee Sin, and the other bruisers. Unlike a champion like Nocturne or Vi, Maokai **can't clear a camp without casting spells**. It just doesn't happen. So... That's my not-so-quick-and-dirty on tank junglers and the problems they face with viability.
: Spirit of the Ancient Golem desperately needs more mana regen
I thought the mana was fine on the new Quill Coat item. You can't spam your abilities like you have a blue buff, but that's fine. On a case by case basis, I think they should look at mana costs across the board for tankier junglers though. In order to clear effectively, tank junglers really need to blow their mana pools.
Rioter Comments
: [Epic Monsters] - Dragon and Baron do not attack
It would appear that this has been fixed with the most recent patch. Thanks.
: This is not a bug. Also is on live. The cap is so you don't hit extremely hard with it on baron/dragon/blue/red. The cap is not make sure you do not deal more than 300 damage (I know this sounds weird) but because you otherwise deal insane amounts of damage on baron/dragon/blue/red.
I know why the cap is there. But it's more of a soft cap if this is intended.
: on who then? lol like I tried out a lot of champ and u know....
I played Vi at the time to check out the new map. Baron and Dragon both were attacking me then.
: Just so you know, the bug seems to be related to the new map or models, because my friend and I tested it on a regular SR match and Baron and Dragon attacked us. The timers were active in this test.
That makes sense. The new map gives Baron and Dragon new attack patterns. Can't exactly state how the under pinnings work but my guess is that they used to just auto attack you where as now their attacks are actual abilities that they aren't using.
: lol this bug has been going on for nearly a week now.... where have u been dude?
That's definitely not true. I was playing last week when the new map hit the PBE and both could still attack you. Was a little annoyed that you could easily kite Dragon by walking straight through him and how Baron would knock you back if you used an ability that placed you too close to him (like what happens when Baron spawns).
: *Mathematically*, that's how it would work, yes. However, League *caps* the bonus damage if resistances go into the negative, which was my point. Anyway, Sevenix actually answered this question: the spirit items are causing the extra 50% damage boost. I don't play jungle, so I hadn't even considered the items as the cause.
And you are still wrong about that fact. League **does not** cap the resistances at negative values and the Spirit Stone items **do not** give +50% bonus damage anyway. My whole point is that the cap should apply to the end total damage, not to the damage after resistances and bonus increases.
: (Yet Another....) Maokai Feedback
As I mentioned in another thread... Maokai really deserves some MR per level. Every other tank gets this, and it does make Maokai feel a little weak against AP later on in the game.
: Let's talk about reworked Maokai
Here's a better question... Why doesn't Maokai gain Magic Resist per level? That makes literally no sense. Every other tank in the game gains MR. Almost every bruiser gains MR per level. Maokai does not. What is up with that...? Is this an oversight of some kind or just a bad joke?
: [Epic Monsters] - Dragon and Baron do not attack
Confirmed that it happens even on normal attacks for starts... so it looks like all of his attack patterns have just been deleted. Appears that Baron is having the same problem...
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aceofsween

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