: **Edit:** **One of the most agreed upon posts and it's completely ignored, you won't even provide us some numbers as an example or say anything to alleviate any worries. When mage items were initially dumpstered in price and stats the post wrote that you guys were more than willing to change or go back on anything, yet you're just compounding it with more nerfs, after despite near all the feedback saying the nerfs were far too much. Near every topic about it was ignored. Why aren't the hundreds of thousands of games of statistics enough to make you change your minds?!** **Why am I not surprised? The typical Riot "We are always right and we know what is healthy for the game and good for you" attitude continues. Because this game is so much more healthy and fun than it was in Season 4 right? No, it's not. Your model of what efficiency is fair for a mage is absurd and your stubbornness to acknowledge that or your mistakes is best described as disgusting.** **In any other industry this attitude Riot has would lead to instant company failure, but because of the foothold you have and relative lack of competition you just carry on doing whatever you want regardless of the opinions of the customer base; which at best you just get offended at and ignore unless it's something you can easily dismiss in a few lines based on your ideas rather than anything real or proven through thorough testing. Even if your ideas are statistically proven wrong you continue with them and call yourselves "overly correct" or similar insanity instead of ever admitting a mistake.** Original post: Why is AP being so heavily reduced after it was already heavily reduced while the crazy costs are still beyond unreasonable for what they provide? Mana regen removed in exchange for a negligible amount of mana? Why are you guys nerfing mages AGAIN so heavily? None of the mage ratios make sense anymore, they'd have to be dramatically increased at this point to compare to what other classes do. At the cost of 2400 gold for Banshee's tanks now really can ignore mages even if they have no resources. YOUR PRESEASON 6 CHANGES WHICH STAYED MADE LANING SLOWER AND MORE BORING while simultaneously ensuring that ~~tanks~~ any class with Banshee's/Visage can easily 1v1 any mage essentially gimping them. THESE CHANGES ARE GOING TO MAKE LANING EVEN MORE BORING/PASSIVE and make mages worse than trash later in the game. Whatever your intentions might be, which appears to be yet another all-encompassing nerf to mages, you're going to definitely make the laning phase a lot more passive. There's NOTHING in any of those items that's a net gain for mages, those mana amounts cannot possibly compensate for losing mana regen entirely and mage ratios are now a relic of the past which make no sense. CAN WE PLEASE SEE SOME MATH BEHIND THIS?! IN THE PRESEASON YOU GUYS CLAIMED YOU DID A MATH PASS WHEN DUMPSTERING MAGES, SHOW US THAT MATH! I honestly don't believe for a moment that you play mages otherwise you'd know how horrible they feel to play right now, and you'd find out very quickly they're chump change compared to all other classes in the game. I started playing sometime in 2011, with these changes I think I'm actually done after ~5 years, I think that's a wrap, I quit. If you showed anyone the Season 6 changes in S5, which was a disaster itself, they'd think it's a joke. Look up the stats of how many old accounts are going inactive this season, especially after these nerfs go through.
I think we need to keep an open mind. These changes are coming in preparation for a massive mage update. I don't think it's fair to judge these items changes as an isolated event. If after you see the mage changes and they go through a few iteration of balances and you still hate the state then by all means go on a tirade, I'd probably be on your side as a long standing viktor and lux player.
: Im not sure where people get this idea of NEEDING to rush hourglass. I have not had any issues getting 2 or 3 dorans rings and seekers, and waiting until 2 or 3 items to finish the hourglass. As a matter of fact, I have more success by NOT rushing zhonyas in full because I can actually keep up my mana pool.
I agree that in most cases the hourglass rush isn't completely necessary on a lot of champions, but the big problem with longer hourglass cd is that champions that absolutely need it to function get shut out during the mid and late game where they are strongest. Champions like {{champion:50}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:25}} and maybe {{champion:30}} absolutely need hourglass because these are the champions who needs to dive into the middle of the team to function. If they don't get hourglass these champions don't have the natural tankiness to survival a team dive. If the enemy team is good at identifying threats and focusing then the moment they see a kennen or morg dive in without an hourglass to stasis them then they blow that champion up. It basically becomes a case of are the enemy team coordinated enough to take me out before my ulti locks them down. The only way for these champions to operate well without zhonyas is to be well ahead in items. Any nerfs to zhonya's active is a direct nerf to these champions. On the flip side, In the defensive case against assassins and burst mages, I actually like the increased CD so that there's an actual window for the enemy to interact with when they get all their cd down and zhonya is still on cd. It forces mages to actually consider whether or not to use zhonya rather than just activating it every time an assassin engages.
: Hextech Crafting Bug Report Thread
I'm not too sure if this is a bug but the sounds that accompanies the animations doesn't lower or mute based on sfx volume in the client preferences.
: PBE Content Being Removed for Loot System Testing
I really like the new system loot system. It provides a really exciting and fun way of acquiring new content. I have only one minor ponder. Is there any consideration into essence conversion? In my live account I have all the champions and an extreme overabundance of ip so acquiring new champions isn't much of a worry. Therefore, getting a champion shard would be a pretty dissatisfying and an overall disappointment. However, if I could convert champion essence into cosmetic essence, even at a high cost, it would greatly alleviate some of the disenchantment around getting a champion shard. Just a minor thought. I still greatly appreciate having a loot system enacted, and aside from a few minor appearance bugs, it seems to work perfectly.
: Illaoi Bug Report Thread
Azir's soldiers can take out Illaoi's tentacle with one attack. Also the hit box on her e is sometimes very wonky. It hits champions in dashes very awkwardly. I'm not exactly sure how to describe it, but it may also be me/lag. I'm curious if it happens to anyone else.
: You get 2. It's a mutated Scuttle Crab!
Are we just gonna ignore that that thing is a mutated scuttle crab. I mean sweet lord Zeus, that thing is monstrous. What mutated it? Is Zaun dumping toxic waste into the river or something? Do we need to start an EPA in summoner's rift to bring things up to code? I need answers here.
: Why is kindred E third basic attack unable to crit?
The wolf damage cannot crit but the base aa damage that triggers the wolf can still crit. It's like Nasus' Q. Almost all auto modifiers work this way, because if they don't then those attacks would become less efficient compared to crits.
: Played custom game in a match against bots, no skin these bugs, once revealed, were persistent until the end of the match. 1) Wolf stops marking camps after about 10 min. 2) There were two Wolfs at around the same time (10-15 min), for me it happened right after doing the wolf camp. 3) When using W Wolf's Frenzy the second (glitched) Wolf would either; charge uselessly at the boundary of the ability, hover in his idle animation, swirl around Lamb. 4) W visually bugs out (color flashes on an off rapidly) while the second wolf is around. 5) When using R Lamb's Respite, all enemy's that reached the damage threshold and can no longer be damaged get some sort of game code tag that pops up, happens on every champ including Lamb. After they stop receiving damage it goes away. Within my game these bugs had a 100% reproduction rate.
> 2) There were two Wolfs at around the same time (10-15 min), for me it happened right after doing the wolf camp. Not 100% sure but I keep getting the double wolf when I activate W and get a third proc on the E at the same time. Not sure yet since it doesn't trigger all that reliably.
: Garen Bugs [Because the Bugs Thread wasn't Enough]
I've also noticed this with towers and inhibitor. It's very inconsistent on appearing and does seem to have something to do with distance. I think it might be related to the whole at max range Garen moves some units forward to the target while Qing.
: Hope it's true. ;) but nothing on PBE..qq
I have a feeling that all adc adjustments have been moved to the preseason. The whole juggernaut thing is gonna take up all the patches leading up Worlds. The only balances will probably be number adjustments which is something I hope they don't rely on fixing MF.
: Garen is so broken
Garen is in a really weird space. He's a tank that doesn't have any cc. In a team fight, his only contribution is damage. Previously, Garen's late game damage was immaterial. Garen hits a power peak at level 11 then slowly loses power as everyone outscales him. This recent change gives Garen that damage in team fights in the mid to late game. The scaling might needs a bit of a tuning, but I think Garen is in a good place. His damage is probably a bit too consistent, which is why his move speed and Q speed boost is being nerfed. I think the biggest problem is the part of Garen's kit that I like the best, but I believe is too strong for Garen to have, and that's the true damage ult. Having an ultimate that scales off such a large amount of percent missing health plus the ridiculously high base is too much. Any adc/squishy carry that has villian is one shotable at around half hp. That is just too much burst. The unfortunate part is that this change is what's making Garen viable. The other 1% max health true damage is fairly useless, Garen is never going to hit all his E procs which means at most this is about 5% health, which is about how much fiora gets with a passive proc. In my opinion, as someone who plays a whole lot of garen through several nerfs and buffs: he is a champion that has to be countered at champ select with a lot of cc or slows. However, If he gets slightly ahead then he will rocket off because of how well he scales off ad, armor, mr, and health. I don't think Garen is broken. He is overtuned, which combined with his simple kit and excellent scaling exaggerates his power.
: May MF get a small BUFF on her W?
I believe someone said MF is gonna be receiving a few adjustments in the next patch.
: That is the point, they did not fix the anti-fun element to play against Darius- they did not do anything but buff him... he was nerfed because he was not fun to deal with, and a rework is meant to fix those issues and yet they did not change a single thing in his kit so the "rework" is completely pointless when it does not solve the bad game play elements that he has
Wait what exactly are to referring to when you say anti-fun element? Because, Darius is a much weaker laner now. His damage is so much lower in the early game due to a combination of lower attack speed and less reliable Q hit as well as a lower damage overall. I mean the heal is one of the few things that I really dislike but that's only to compensate for how weak his early game is now. The only thing that Darius is better at now is snowballing. As long as you can prevent the first kill he really doesn't do all that well by himself.
: it is still a bleed which is the thing that grants a lot of invisible power and his over dominant spell in the laning phase--- his pull also feels like it is unavoidable unless out of range or he misses, it is not like blitz hook where you can dodge it (thresh hook is such a broken hitbox that it is basically a 90 degree cone it is so ridiculous which riot will never fix for some reason despite being known since his release; bigger than intended for thresh)
They've slowed down the Q and also made it so that only the blade apply passive. This adds a decent amount of counter play. It's a bit silly though with the two massive slows that darius now has. Also the ad change is a buff not a nerf, it'll apply Black Cleaver and give him the speed boost. So very much a buff in my opinion. Especially since the bleed is no longer for the damage but rather to set up the ult damage and resets.
: Taric rework ideas (Kit and appearance)
This kit is interesting. I like the passive effect and the Q shield, it lets taric be a bit proactive in damage mitigation. The visuals on the ult is a nice touch. Riot has said before that they would never do any sort of mana drain mechanic. At least they wouldn't do mana drain items. I would think that this would extend to abilities. It would give Taric an interesting niche but the balance would be too difficult. If it was balanced towards mana tanks then it would be useless against apc and if it was balanced for apc then mana tanks would get destroyed. Ultimately, it too difficult to make impactful without being suffocating. Of course, I believe Taric's kit is already finalized and they're just working on the visual update now.
: Sterak's Gage stacking (multiple issues)
The primal rage passive on Sterak's Gage is actually unique, because the conditions to get primal rage is unique. Thus the passive should not be stacking. With multiple gages only one would proc after taking damage. If you had multiple gages the cd on the prc is shared so you can't get procs on after another. In my opinion Gage is a bit on the weak side, especially with how fast the shield decays. I understand that they want it to give bruisers more survivability with a bit of damage, but this is the worst of both words. The ad is tiny with no additional scaling, the defenses is sub par and the added defense is extremely situational. With team fights being so extended that shield is fairly useless. I don't know about you but most of the time the item gets proced and everyone disengages to reengage a bit later. The item is only cost efficient during the proc, and the proc is too situational.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zixcik,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=001700020000,timestamp=2015-08-06T07:39:01.217+0000) > > On the Villain topic. > > Yea, I've noticed the same thing playing Garen. I don't really care who has Villain, I just dive the adc same as before. I mean that's the tank/bruiser's job to dive the adc/apc but mostly the adc. If the adc has villain yay if not, whatever. I'm not going after a tank, even with the 1% max health true, it's not going to dent a near full build tank. I mean at 3000 health and if they stay perfectly in the spin that's only 300 true plus some 400-700 physical damage. That's 3 seconds I'm not on the adc and that's 3 seconds the adc has to kill the rest of my team. The only time I notice the villain system is when I give up a kill and it makes a harder for the enemy top laner to snowball off you. > > I'm not going to say that I dislike the Villain system or even that I want it removed. I just feel that in it's current form it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, and ultimately it's robbing his other abilities of power that would be more useful. That's my two cents. > > On the Items topic. > > The new build paths really do force you to play Garen very differently. I have been playing Garen like udyr getting titanic hydra and speedy boots. It works decently well. > > The one thing is do not get Gage because it's a trap. I know that I say it would be core but that was before play tests. when you Q in and then E by the time Gage procs you've finished E and goes on cd and by the time you have E again Gage's is over and you're either dead or the enemy team is fleeing. IF you wait for gage's to proc the adc has most likely peeled you off and you either have so much cc on you or the adc is so far away that you can't benefit from it. Gage is for more sticky champions like udyr or fizz. Garen will just get kitted away. Sounds like you're experiencing the same thing with the Villain mechanic as I am. Played a few more matches last night, and spectated a few more after that. I overwhelmingly noticed that people/myself ignore the Villain. If I'm in toplane, and the Villain is the ADC, support or jungle, it's almost entirely irrelevant to me. I'm not crossing the entire map or scouring the jungle trying to find that target. So, all I really end up with is an annoying portrait of whoever is doing well on the enemy team. An entirely different point and far more speculative: I think the Villain system opens up more avenues for toxicity. For one, it's a glaring reminder to Garen that someone is kicking your team's ass. That could be irritating. For your team, I can see the team trolling you hard if you attack and fail to kill the Villain ("trolol Garen can't even kill villain") and I also see people jumping your case for not helping them if they're losing their lane hard ("Come on Garen come kill villain! it's your job!").
Man, I didn't even think about the toxicity part. That's a really good point. I also find the portrait really annoying. I honestly hope that they remove it before live. I've found that on a few occasions it really disrupts my laning because it blocks hp bars, it obscures quite a lot of vision (this I only noticed on my laptop), and it's just annoying to have it hovering there. The nameplate area is a bit of a sacred space. It should be as simple and non-obtrusive as possible. it's in the middle of the screen and it's our draws our focus. Only the bare essentials should be there: level, health, and mana/resource. On occasions like kalista and tahm when two champions are on top of one another that portrait is fine. All other information should be imparted through particles or through the icon bars. Having that portrait constantly there breaks that simplicity.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
The update is really nice. I was initially really annoyed by the Judgement changes. However, after some initial digestion, I really like it. It makes positioning really important and it rewards Garen for isolating players. This gives Garen a better bit of split pushing if they want. Also, love that Q buff. It fits thematically and gives a large bit of consistency without giving Garen extra mobility, very nice touch. One quick question. Is Judgment's 1 second before cancelling still there?
: @Riot, could we rename the Titanic Hydra?
This is something I can totally get behind. Ladon is one of my favorite creatures in the garden of the Hesperides. I even named my dnd champion after one of the nymphs that guarded the golden apple, erebus. It's also the reason i dislike Hercules.
: The wrong direction of Zac buffs and what needs to be prioritized by Challenger Zac player
Just curious how you felt about the increased knocked up distance on his ult. I've always felt that it was pretty terrible for his synergy with other champion aoes. I always felt that it should be cut back a bit.
: 5/8 Twitch
I donno about the ult having no mana but the mana refund would be really nice since twitch's laning phase is pretty awful with really no compensation for mid or late game. On the mana issue, I agree that it should be standardized to 100 or maybe even 80 but there should be a mana cost. It gives twitch a large line aoe and tons of damage to the back line through tanks.
: I've played more games with him. - Still noticing E/Judgement hitting HARD as the game gets going. - Villain system continues to feel entirely superfluous. Doesn't change how I play whatsoever and I highly doubt it affects anyone else either. I'm hitting hard enough that unless I'm super behind, I don't need it to annihilate someone. Q+E+Ignite+Ulti = dead anyone. If I'm super behind I'm not surviving to my target either way. - Also, to the Villain system: It doesn't feel like I'm a protector. It feels like I'm a sad avenger that's avenging deaths, not protecting people. I understand I'm taking out a valuable target, but it more feels like I'm hunting down my friend's killer and not really protecting anyone. Feels more like something Vayne would have. That's just flavor feedback but thought I'd throw it out there. - Still utterly despise the buildpath. New items aren't enticing at all on him. If I've got to play him in an entirely different way than I have while maining him, then I'd rather play someone else entirely.
On the Villain topic. Yea, I've noticed the same thing playing Garen. I don't really care who has Villain, I just dive the adc same as before. I mean that's the tank/bruiser's job to dive the adc/apc but mostly the adc. If the adc has villain yay if not, whatever. I'm not going after a tank, even with the 1% max health true, it's not going to dent a near full build tank. I mean at 3000 health and if they stay perfectly in the spin that's only 300 true plus some 400-700 physical damage. That's 3 seconds I'm not on the adc and that's 3 seconds the adc has to kill the rest of my team. The only time I notice the villain system is when I give up a kill and it makes a harder for the enemy top laner to snowball off you. I'm not going to say that I dislike the Villain system or even that I want it removed. I just feel that in it's current form it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, and ultimately it's robbing his other abilities of power that would be more useful. That's my two cents. On the Items topic. The new build paths really do force you to play Garen very differently. I have been playing Garen like udyr getting titanic hydra and speedy boots. It works decently well. The one thing is do not get Gage because it's a trap. I know that I say it would be core but that was before play tests. when you Q in and then E by the time Gage procs you've finished E and goes on cd and by the time you have E again Gage's is over and you're either dead or the enemy team is fleeing. IF you wait for gage's to proc the adc has most likely peeled you off and you either have so much cc on you or the adc is so far away that you can't benefit from it. Gage is for more sticky champions like udyr or fizz. Garen will just get kitted away.
: The Villain will commonly be enemy carries in the late game. The purpose of this passive is that Garen provides a meaningful threat to whoever that target is if his manages to get in range to damage them, whether that guy is a tank, assassin, marksman, etc. We want to to be _very_ important to enemy tanks and supports to peel Garen as he pressures the Villain. > Another thing I am curious about is why he would ever get an attack range increase. Seems very odd to me. Big sword, big range
So, I'm just gonna leave this here but I've also posted on this forum. I really dislike the champion portrait for the Villain. It's really annoying and it blocks HP of minions and champions and it's really just annoying during laning to see the portrait. I don't know if I'm the only one, but in my belief the mark above the villain is enough of an indicator.
: Can I get a little context on why Garen has a silence to begin with (I don't see why he would need it in the majority of lane matchups). From what I see in games, Garen will just run towards a carry silence the individual then wreak havoc on that player. Also I'm curious about the whole "villian" passive. Assuming an optimal game, the person with the last kill will likely be the ADC or APC. So is the objective here to have Garen a massive tank be able to get on one of the squishys silence them, then do true damage to the small amount of hp that player has followed by an execute? Also yes the carrys should be peeled for however with Garens speed boost and ability to survive I see him make it to the target most of the time. Another thing I am curious about is why he would ever get an attack range increase. Seems very odd to me.
Silence really does two things. First it provides the tiniest amount of utility that allows him to interrupt channels, and the second is that it provides a great deal of sticking power by preventing disengaging abilities and flashes to go out immediately as Garen reaches the enemy. It give Garen a precious second of E damage ticks on his prime target.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
I'd like to suggest that the champion portrait next to the name plate that represents the Villain be removed because, it's really annoying in lane to see the portrait. It also covers up health bars as I'm trying to cs and it covers up champion health bar which is really annoying. Am I alone in that? I'm just wondering since no one is posting about it. The thing is the Villain already had a big mark over it head, we really don't need to have that icon. It adds so much unnecessary distractions as you are trying to lane.
: @RiotRepertoir: **GAMEPLAY IMPRESSIONS** Played a PBE match with Garen and here are my impressions of the changes for now. **Impressions** - The icon beside your HP bar that indicates who the current Villain is is TOO BIG. Like, way too big. It was freaking me out that I had a Blitzcrank or Lucian icon in the middle of my screen that I couldn't get rid of. Very distracting and covers up valuable real estate on screen. Please move down to the bottom UI. - Judgement does a lot of damage. Like, a lot of damage. Wasn't expecting it to hit that hard minus the crit damage builds, but it hits hard. I did feel like I was missing more minions farming with it though. Just a feeling, but felt like in general the timing wasn't last hitting minions like it usually does so was missing more CS than normal with it. Could be wrong. - Didn't notice the lowered silence on Q. Enemies were dying quickly with Q+E so it was unnoticeable. - You're squishier. The W nerf is noticeable and you're squishier. W was always a one-point wonder and now it gives you 10 flat Armor and MR until the very late game. Combined with the HP nerf you feel squishier. - The Villain mechanic combined with the extra damage on E is fun in the sense that you absolutely demolish someone, but it felt super unnecessary. Felt like ultra-overkill. Great, he died in 3 spins instead of 5. *Shrug* I guess it'd be a tad more impressive if it was on tanks, but most of the time the villain is APC or ADC and in those cases they're squishy. Would love to see replaced with stickiness/speed. The damage is overkill. They run from you regardless of being the target or no. Doesn't feel like it changes the gameplay at all. **Bugs** - E/Judgement doesn't do any damage to dragon. Tried multiple times. I did have the new Gage item so not sure if related to that, but was unable to get E to do damage on dragon. - Had several delays when I ulted and then tried to move into a different attack command. Seemed to only happen on Villain. A bit of a stall if you will. - Q still cannot hit Nexus and cannot be canceled, so if you hit Q while trying to bring down Nexus (like you would on an inhibitor or turret) you're stuck standing there for the full duration of Q unable to kill Nexus. Only option is to find a minion/enemy champion/turret to hit. If none are there, you sit there with nothing to do and look like you're gloating. Either allow Q to hit Nexus like everything else or while Q is active just allow a regular auto-attack to go through. **Items** I did not like the new build path. - Without crit being a desirable stat, there's no clear big ticket item any more. It used to be Infinity Edge which would make Garen go Super Saiyan. Now you're like, "Bloodthirster? Well I don't need lifesteal. Ravenous/Titanic Hydra? I absolutely don't need a single bit of AoE. Trinity Force? Wasted on me." There's not a go-to big ticket damage item like there used to be. Makes the build feel very strange. You get Black Cleaver, you get a bruiser (tanky damage hybrid) item, and then you're sitting there scratching your head. Youmuu's? Nope. Infinity Edge? Nah. I want to do some damage so not really inclined for more tankiness. Last Whisper is okay but not that expensive, and after that it's unclear. The new items do not fill this hole well in my opinion. If I'm using my damage and speediness and bruiser-style to split push, duel, and pick off targets then I'm entirely uninclined to buy the new tank items. - No Sunfire Cape as a core item feels blasphemous and gross. Sunfire = Garen.
the core items should be BC and Gage with Randu and Spirit finish off with GA or Warmogs.
: I did not know Garen could jungle.
I mean he can take smite and go through the jungle without dying, I don't know if I'd call it jungling.
: Okay, awesome. I'll leave some thoughts after dinner when I give him a spin. :3 ...get it...? A.. spin... {{item:3070}}
Man that's a phreak level pun. I laughed for quite a bit.
: That has little to do with the fact that they're AP and more with the fact that they're overpowered in Ryze's case and overloaded in Lulu's. Lissandra was a case of "won't let the meta shift away from her naturally" and saw all of 0 play after nerfs folks at Riot thought would only be a minor hit. Meta shifted away from her regardless and she was buried.
Yea, that and the range is really hard to handle for the melee ad tops that just get poked out and can't farm.
: @Xypherous Since I'm one of the players that repeatedly asked for the {{item:3105}} recipe change, I have a question: the change to its passive, "AURA Legion", is going to affect {{item:3190}} and {{item:3060}} too? Or are the HP regen and MR aura nerfed only on the Aegis? Also, is the new {{item:3083}} passive activated when my **current health** is above 3000 or when my **total health** is above 3000?
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say total health since it wouldn't make much sense for current health since it's a health regen buff.
: Fiora Ult ideas
While, I also really dislike the Fiora's ult, I just don't think any more power can be added to fiora's ult. I mean her passive now has so much of her power budget that really there's nothing left for her ult. So in exchange for a better ult there has to be a nerf on her passive which means that it wouldn't be as impactful.
: Why nerf his Silence so badly? How does he need to be even easier to kite with the E change?
I'm wondering about that actually, but I have to test it in game. It does feel a bit much. I'd rather have a damage decrease than have the overall consistency of the E reduced.
: Huh, so...his **W **is now passive? I would love to see something more unique and powerful for him...His passive helps him on early game, but on lategame teamfights i doesn't help much. (Or that's what I see) > > **W - Courage:** **Active**: Garen reinforces himself for **3/4/5** secs, instantly gaining Perseverance. While **Reinforced**, Perseverance cannot be stopped when Garen receives damage Temporaly making his passive active even if he receives damage will be good. For Teamfights, trades, certain situations...**What do you guys think? It isn't good for him? **
That would essentially be a much much weaker mundo ult. I don't think riot will do that, nor do I think that would be good for him actually. Also they're not removing the active I don't think. Just the tenacity on the active. Garen is a weird champion late game in that it forces your team to play differently. When Garen is present you really need your team to skirmish. Late game his passive procs in 4 seconds and he'll be essentially be in fighting health in 10 seconds. Also the W damage mitigation is pretty insane, essentially a mini Alistar ult which really allows Garen to dive into a 5 man without just being instantly bursted to low. Honestly, Garen W really should just give tenacity without getting the bonus armor/mr since no one notices it late game and now it's only reserve to late game.
: The W nerf is going to hurt a bit. Yes he can start stacking it sooner, but it'll take longer. He's also not a jungler so I don't see him getting many stacks that way. In the end, he'll get a bit less overall. As for E, how much AD are you guys expecting him to build during a game? Usually he gets a BC and that's about it. The more tics is nice though.
Actually Garen has a decent Jungle. He just has the worst ganks in the world. He's like a worse Shyvana essentially. This change will just encourage counterjungling and taking krugs when on the top side. The nerf is a bit much in laning since you have to rank it last since garen has to rank E first for damage and Q second for the Move speed. Overall though It wouldn't be too bad. At least I don't think. Although it will suck being level 18 and still have to farm for like 5 minutes before getting the full armor/magic resist. If it's make Garen too weak it'll probably be adjusted. To be honest, I'd rather have the tenacity than the armor/mr since Garen builds full tank anyways. It is a bit silly the W nerf now that I really think about it. The W is suppose to give a bit of extra tankiness for the Garen who really needs to build a bit more damagey than other champions but now with the ult passive, there's really no need to build anything but tank and a BC, which I'm guessing most people already did, meaning that the bonus armor/mr is just a bit of extra tankiness that no one will really notice, especially in a late game context.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Overall, I think the balance changes are decent. **QUESTIONS**: * I'm just curious if the total duration of judgement is going to change from 3 seconds? * Also if I'm reading right that at late game Judgement will now have a base damage of 280 as opposed to the 120 that it now? * Lastly, and this is just checking but is the damage still lower to minions? **Comments**: The two thing that I really am hesitant about is the passive added to the ulti and the 20% slow toward enemies. I understand that the ulti is suppose to give him a dynamic role in fights, but it removes a lot of the autonomy that Garen has in a fight at the same time. The damage on Villain is so high that if you hit anyone else, it'll be a waste of your potential dps. I'm just a bit worried. I was wondering thoughts on this. Also the slow towards enemies is a bit worrying, I mean Garen already has a tough time getting to enemies. Now with the silence nerf and the slow, I'm just worried that Garen'll be kited even better. Just is just an initial concern. I'll reserve judgement until I test it in game. Other than that, I really like the changes and the scaling changes. Pretty Cool.
: Main problems are 1.Q Cooldown to high, and dash a little too short 2. WTF is that cool down on the W?!?!? With Fizz i can almost use my E 2 times in a thread,and the fizz's E is WAY stronger, i don't care of the POSSIBILITY to stun, Fizz's E can do lots of more stuff, is way stronger,also Yi with the Q can dodge lots of things with a minimal cool down if autoattacks a bit! 3. The passive must be a bit more forgiving and the heal is a bit weak. 4. The ult must have something like "hitting a weak spot reduce the cooldown of your E and Q by 2 seconds" as a passive, so ulting someone to have immediately 4 weak spots make more sense and fits well with the whole kit..or something else i don't know but they have to do something on the ult! The kit is cool, and the concept of the kit is really cool, but i want a duelist that dash and run around the enemy and parries ability really often. I don't want to build 35% CDR (plus the 5% of masteries) to have ALMOST that feeling, she must be a quick duelist that cast a lot of ability(especially the Q and a bit the W) and continuously run around you dodging and parring everything if well played and with good reaction time by the player!
The W's cd is justified in my opinion. Fizz's E and Yi's Q may allow for cooler jukes and other more mobile plays, but Fiora's W is an all damage block for .75 seconds. Imagine completely negating a garen ult or a viegar ult or a poppy burst combo or a syndra burst combo. Fiora's W allows you to completely negate all those damage while Fizz and Yi can only set them on a short cd by going untargetable (with the exception of syndra). Essentially Fiora can soak up cds for other champions, making her a really good damage bruiser. I would say that her W is the strongest part of her kite. It makes her laning phase so much more interesting against combo champions like Irelia and such.
: MF also had her W as a bit faster with it being on 2 or 3 attacks at 40-70%ish AS compared to 20-60%. They had a lot going for her and ideas, but they only changed her Q a tiny bit (Boosted damage on the 2nd hit if the 1st kills) and her E being reduced to 2s, but the slow being increased at lower ranks.
Yea, I really like the other changes they made to MF. It was a pretty big buff to AP MF. I just really want to know what happened to MF's passive scaling with level that was on the rework page but never got introduced. Was it scrapped or is it still being worked on? I just want to know what happened. MF is one of my favorite champions and I was really liked the idea of her passive scaling with level like my other favorite, garen.
: Totally agree for the Q problems, its ok that the passive is not forgiving, but so my dash must be longer and with a lower cool down,they could change the CDR on enemy hits to 50% but lower the standard cooldown. The ult yes, simply when you get ulted you run away, just countered, and that force Fiora players to ult someone the instant before killing him with a Q on one single weak spot only for the heal...pretty sad :\ Another thing, the W cooldown is ridiculously long, WTF?!?! Fizz E, but also Yi with the Q could make lots more mechanics and outplays with the lower cooldowns(especially Yi) than Fiora with the W, with a dumb 20 second cooldown, cmoon, is not so strong that move, really..is not so strong...The W must have lower cooldown too, like the Q, and they can add something at the ult, like hitting a wak spot of the ulted champ lower the cooldown of your spells(or at least the Q) of 1/2 seconds :D The Kit concept is awesome, but those problems are completely ruining the idea of a quick fencer dashing around his enemies and outplaying everyone :\
This will probably be pretty long, sorry. I think some of the thinking behind the long cd on the W is because it can completely negate a number of abilities by absorbing the damage. Used properly it can absorb abilities like cho and darius ults, (It's one of the very few abilities that can mitigate true damage) putting those spells on a full cd. Meanwhile, Fizz E and Yi Q and other untargetables allows that particular champion to avoid the spell but doesn't necessarily negate the ability since it provides the champions with a short cd instead of the full cd. I still think that despite the potential defensive power of W it still doesn't provide enough damage especially scaling off of AP. I guess they're really pushing for tri force on her? I think that the CD on the Q is a bit long and the distance a bit short. It either needs a lower end CD or a bit longer distance. I don't like the longer distance because I don't think fiora should be able to cross through walls. I think that late game CD with full CDR should be 3 seconds providing a 1.2 CD if you hit a target. No insane mobility since it only goes through a tiny amount of walls, but provides superior sticking power and a greater ease of hitting passive and ulti. I will say that they absolutely need to do a round of fixes for her passive because half the time the Q doesn't proc right when fiora's model is right next to the target's model. Her autos also seems to be just off when attacking at close range. I actually think the problem isn't that the passive is bugged but rather that lol isn't an up down view game but rather we see things at an angle so that these indicators don't line up particularly right with sword strikes the originate from a wide swing that is a distance above the indicators. It's the same reason skillshots are harder to hit when they go perpendicular to the lane as opposed to parallel. This is kinda the same thing that Lux's ult had a problem with. The animation from the camera angle looked like it hit champions even the indicator would hover over but an up down view showed the real orientation. They did a pretty nice fix of the visuals to negate that particular annoyance hopefully they do the same here. One last thing on the ulti heal. It's a bit annoying how much of her power budget is spent on this heal, that honestly, I feel just doesn't gel with her personality nor the bruiser style. I just don't like pigeonholing her as a team fighter. Although, I do have the say building full cdr tank was quite fun, running headlong into the enemy team soaking up all the initial cc with W then just running around like a singed. Albeit, that might not be what riot had in mind for fiora.
Rioter Comments
: Fiora has been my main since season 2, single-handedly getting me to plat this and last season, and all I can say is she's been absolutely obliterated. I don't see anything in the hideous artwork, bland animations, unexciting skills, and nonsensical attack design, that shows me even a spark of what she used to be. I'm actually appalled that this is what my favourite champion is becoming, and when these changes go through I'll be ashamed to own all 3 of her skins. I'm not even sure if I'm going to be able to try her, because everything about her just feels so wrong. To me, Fiora was someone who was mobile but only when moving towards a fight, high risk high reward and required absolute knowledge of how much damage she could do and take to play her well, someone who could beat her bad matchups if you were genuinely better than the person you were playing against. I don't even know what to do with this champion, I don't know if she actually does anything. And she feels like a melee draven, with some sort of minigame except likely only even feasible when playing against bots
Isn't this a bit harsh, I mean you should at least play a few games with her first before tearing her kit apart. I'm not saying your not entitled to your opinions, but at the very least give fiora a try. I think the rework deserves at least one or two games.
: Of course and I totally agree with you on the subject that he has to have wings. That wasn't my concern at all,hope I wasn't misunderstood here. All I had to rapport here was about his wings. My concern was about wings being fin like,elephant ears :) As all content on PBE is subject for a change,I do hope creative team finds this positive constructed feedback inspiring enough to make some changes regarding the fins. Cheers,and thanks for reply! ;) {{champion:266}}
For a 750 skin, I don't think that we get any rigging changes just texture changes, so I don't think we'll be getting different shaped wings.
: Quinn ult and vault bug
Valor assets aren't hooked up yet and so those animations are probably still a bit weird.
: Quinn Ult Bug
Valor assets were just added in the last pbe patch, but they haven't been hooked up yet. It'll probably take till next patch before it is.
: You mean that minion attacks shouldnt remove the movement speed bonus ( from your passive ) which you gain by activating W ? Yeah that would be really nice ! I just ran a test game to see if there are any changes to the passive during the game. Nothing changes from Lv1 to 18 : - The passive cooldown is still 5sec - The initial movement speed boost is still 25 - The max movement speed bonus is still 70 - The movement speed gain per second is still 8/sec
Just tested it as well and didn't notice any changes per level either. I wonder if maybe it was forgotten this round. Can we please get some insight from a rioter about what exactly is scaling per level on her passive. I've been trying to figure it out for a while and nothing seems to be increasing with level. It feels like the passive ramp up is quicker at later levels but I'm not entirely sure.
: The concept of mixed damage to counter armor stacking is cool; but you get heavily screwed over against champions that have MR per lvl as a base stat. Their MR scales, your MPen does not. IIRC, when I was trying out hybrid pen quints, I was only doing about 15% of my damage to champions as magic damage. I don't think the mixed damage makes much of a difference outside of the lane phase, and certainly devalues armor pen.
Oh man, that's really funny cause I tried out hybrid pen too and realized pretty much the same thing. I never really thought about the natural MR scaling, that's a really interesting point. I think that the mix damage is still better than if physical damage, but I don't really have the time/want to do the math on it. Also, I don't think that adcs should ever go armor pen on runes. The flat AD and attack speed is, in my opinion, essential on all adcs. One last also, I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, I still feel that MF's ult has a decent reward to it when you find yourself skirmishing on the outside of a fight and land a 4-5 ulti, or when you lay it down as a defense breaker. or my personal favorite the tail hit ulti kill secure. I just don't think we're valuing the damage and range coverage that the ulti has. If anything we should really demand that we get visuals for the W stacks and that the E should apply w stacks, it doesn't need to do the damage but it should just apply the stacks. That and better Q prioritization/mechanism.
: I'm leaving here a comment that isn't really related to your answer, but that i had in mind. Everybody is talking about the huge nerf that represent the removal of the grievous wounds from the W and the new "instant strut". It is right dat in most of the cases where you will use it to gain strut, it will be to chase or escape. But the problem is dat it can be cancelled 2 times in a row without any problem (any dot will shut it down 25 times in a row if needed), so it represent more a nerf than anything else. Also, it might force MF players to use it as a Movement speed steroid more than an AS steroid, and they will lose both the effects, by trying to run (and lose the strut most of the time) and not attack, losing also the damage output bonus. Also, when dueling another AD carry or any self healing champ ( hey {{champion:19}} {{champion:8}} ) it doesn't give anything at all. So my idea was : why not change the new W to : "instantly grants strut AND you can't lose strut bonus mouvement speed for 2/3 seconds" or at least "grants strut : if you lose it, your movement speed can't be reduced under your "normal" move speed (meaning base + boots and pasiv bonuses from items, masteries, or boots upgrade ) for a few seconds. Or maybe a teemo-like : grants a burst of move speed upon activation, and you get strut after the end. I really think that an adc without any escape/hard cc/not a huge range and who also relies a looooooot on auto attacks (so he have to be prepared to long trades, so more chances to get caught) needs really more to survive in a tankky cc meta :/
just as an fyi, they're also making it so that strut isn't canceled by dots. At least that's what I'm taking away from the direct non-periodic damage. Please correct if I'm wrong. That does give MF a bit of space especially if she builds BT, although I have to say ER is such a great item on MF.
: I think OP`s problem is that despite the AD ratio through the W passive , its still **magic dmg ** and isnt affected by Last Whisper , Blackcleaver , Armor Penetration etc. And the actual physical dmg of the ult scales with AP
Yea, MF has the weirdest scaling/damage types, but I think that the W dealing magic damage actually helps MF more than if it were physical. The magical damage makes it so that the enemies can't just stack armor against you. It gives MF both large mid game damage in both burst and sustain damage and late game tank dueling that you would normally not get being all physical damage. The sole AP scaling on the ulti is very strange, but ultimately with AD MF the scaling on her ulti is .36 AD per enemy at first rank if they stay in the full duration. That might not seem like much but that's per enemy, and MF has the largest aoe and the highest base damage of any of the other aoe damage abilities of adcs. I just think that if anything should be buffed it should be her E, W or passive. Her ulti is in a pretty good state. I will say that, I main MF mid as an AP mage and I love the AP scaling on her ulti. So I may be a tiny bit biased.
: Miss Fortune feedback thread!
I'm curious about her Q prioritization. Has it changed at all? Also, it always felt weird that her Q would prioritize champions only if impure shot is on the champions since the biggest reason to use it is to reach over minions to hit champions to break defenses. I understood the change when Q used to hit in a 180 but now the double up area is pretty small so is that prioritization still the case?
: The visuals are a nice improvement. Especially on bullet time! I have a concern about the her visuals: Her 3 "braids" (I use that term overwhelmingly loosely) are sortof a trademark in her appearance. Can we keep that going? Pirate hunters don't have salon, silky smooth, perfectly brushed hair. I am concerned on the change to impure shots. Grievous wounds was a really unique thing that MF brought to the table, and if that's getting removed entirely, something BIG should make up for it! Granting strut for activating her W is a neat idea; but it seems like it's something that we're hardly going to get value out of since strut can be knocked off so easily. If you Double-Up off a caster creep and hit the enemy champion, you almost always lose your passive due to the immediate cry for help. That's not very rewarding. The enemy should have to hit me for me to lose my passive! {{champion:86}} #GarenPrivilege Ideas for her W: - Strut should not be knocked off by minions, ever. Especially with the way Double-Up generates creep hate so often. - When active, strut cannot be cancelled by any source of damage. - When active, auto attacks on enemy champions reapply strut. Bullet time has a great new animation. Bullets EVERYWHERE! YEESSSS! One problem, sortof: The graphic seems a tad... wispy(?) with all the action going on, it can be really hard to see the exact area Bullet Time is effecting. I am also concerned about MF's damage. She has no escapes, and there is no way you can put her in the "mobile ADC" category, which is fine; but she needs to have tools to make up for that. Mobility is super effective, and I think Riot has undervalued mobility when it comes to game balance. ADC's can hardly stand still for half of a second with terrors like {{champion:103}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:238}} on the rift. One misstep and you're dead. For standing still for TWO FULL SECONDS, you better be doing some formidable damage. The reward for full duration Bullet Times gets relatively reduced as the game goes on as her E > R combo doesn't scale with crit or AS at all, and doesn't scale with AD or Armor pen as well as other champions, because the AD scaling does magic damage, and the physical damage scales off of AP. Ideas to fix MF's damage: -Bullet time should have an AD ratio, or somehow needs to deal more physical damage. 2 seconds of immobility is huge, make the reward for it appropriate. -Bullet time could deal 2x stacks of impure shots each wave, assuming the current mechanics are left as is. -Bullet time could deal 1,2,3x stacks of impure shots each wave, assuming the current mechanics are left as is. I fucking love this champion so much. <3 you all. {{champion:21}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:21}} EDIT FOR EASY TO FIND FEATURES DISCUSSED: -Make it Rain adding stacks of Impure Shots (let us test this one plzzzz! <3) -Visuals for how many stacks of W people have. #Clarity {{summoner:13}} -Better Q prioritization. Should it prioritize champions? (If there is some super deep pro game designer reason why it should not, I'd love to hear about it (that was not sarcasm))
Bullet time technically has an AD ratio on it since it applies the W. I actually think that despite the weird scaling, her Ult is in a pretty good place. It has insane damage if you can get the enemy to sit in it for 3-4 bullets, which if you position properly isn't all that difficult. The damage that really needs to be fix is the Q. It has the weirdest target prioritization. I also agree that strut is sometimes underwhelming and really goes unnoticed in quite a few situations. I would love it if Strut isn't popped by minions but the constantly active Strut might be a bit too much. I like that there should be niche moments for popping Strut, it shouldn't be a I need to go fast so I'll just press this button regardless of the situation.
: I don't know if im the only one here but i feel that the removal of GW is more of a nerf because the instant strut is not equal in usefulness when in comes to dueling/ team fighting. Strut is easily canceled so it doesn't really feel like an equal trade off. I dont have any ideas about how to change W but i feel like it should be more combat oriented instead of an escape tool. I feel like this ultimately nerfs her when she already isn't the strongest pick.
I completely agree for two reasons. The first being that GW gave mf unprecedented dueling power. Even if the enemy has good LS or heals, I know with the GW, I can duel them and win the duel. This is the niche that MF excels at. The second is that, the instant strut is extremely niche in usefulness. It's only good at chasing/running away from champions with no reach/poke. In which strut would naturally start up anyways. When chasing, most champions will throw a few damaging spells back dropping the second strut, and it doesn't really matter while running because any champion that can pop strut will probably catch up anyways and champions that can't pop strut wouldn't be able to catch MF before strut naturally procs. In a team fight or during a skirmish, there's going to be so much random damage that's going to hit an adc it's really not going to matter if MF gets a second full strut. Also, I really dislike the utility being attached to such a large damage spell. I thought this was the reason the slow removal was taken out of Garen's E and moved to his Q. Why is it okay in this instance to have the utility placed on a large portion of her damage?' I totally understand why, the GW is taken out. It adds a lot of hidden power on MF that's not really appreciated. I just don't think adding a strut to the active is the way to go.
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Zixcik

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