Rioter Comments
: By the way, you may want to clarify on the Kleptomancy Tooltip that the proc only works on champions - not on minions or monsters. The tooltip while on the game says that it makes your next attack after casting a spell grants gold and has a chance of stealing a consumable - but it doesn't mention whether or not it works on champions or on all units on the game.
Oh yeah, we should make that clearer. It inherits cooldown rules from other sheen effects: so you have 10s to use it, and you can't proc it more than once every 1.5s.
: Klepto Keystone: Variability seems too high. Most noticeably I went >20 minutes without getting a single elixir of skill the whole game. It also seems quite weak in the mid/late game, as it gets much harder to hit people constantly, but it doesn't feel like the drop rate gets higher. Bug: You can sell the items to the shop, but you only kind of get money? In my game it gave me money, then stole it back after about 5 seconds. Meteor: Hitbox seems larger than the circle would imply. When playing with the keystone it seemed to hit a lot when it looked like they were most likely out of the circle. Overheal: Maybe add the wording "very quickly" to the decay of the shield. It seems like you have to be continuously lifestealing to even get a tiny shield from it. Personally I wish there was another better choice for manaless fighters in that spot. Many of them will take that tree for the keystone, but since overheal and mana regen are worthless it means there isn't really much of a choice there. It seems like most fighters are balanced around not needing mana regen anyway, so its kind of strange to see the mana on-hit rune in the precision tree. Press the Attack: Has been hard for me to use since I can't take a full atk spd rune page any more. I also have a very hard time building attack speed on melee champions (or really any non-crit auto-attacker). It would be nice for them to get more attack speed, or more ideally for a (non-crit) attack speed item to be implemented into the game. Now that Botrk doesn't get much atk spd there is not really any item that stands on its own as an attack speed item. Ravenous hunger (spellvamp): Seems to be bugged/overtuned. As kassadin I was healing for full just clearing a wave once I was a little fed. Not sure if there's meant to be a better cap, or the AOE anti- bonus isn't working or what. Tried it on jayce and it definitely was more reasonable. Sumon Aerie: Feels a little weird on Jayce to be able to shoot them, then all in for two guaranteed procs of Aerie. Feels a little like that goes against the point of the rune, but maybe its fine. Scaling CDR rune: The bonus from excess cdr seems way too generous. I feel like there's a good reason death's dance has 75 ad and 10 cdr instead of 95 ad. Same goes for stuff like morello and Athenes. I would definitely take this rune with much less or even 0 benefit of overcapping. General: I feel very squishy unless I get the defense tree as my major tree. Maybe that's ok, just feels different.
> [{quoted}](name=Gorigami,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=uqXvqPFv,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-09-27T21:09:27.095+0000) > > Klepto Keystone: > Variability seems too high. Most noticeably I went >20 minutes without getting a single elixir of skill the whole game. It also seems quite weak in the mid/late game, as it gets much harder to hit people constantly, but it doesn't feel like the drop rate gets higher. > Bug: You can sell the items to the shop, but you only kind of get money? In my game it gave me money, then stole it back after about 5 seconds. Thanks for that bug report! We know what it is and will fix it asap. I'm still very actively working on drop rates and chances to get certain items. That said, I want elixir of skill to be a "some games I get this" item, not a guaranteed every game I play I will see this item. It's super rare, basically.
: Runes Reforged PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread
Quick headsup: if you're selling Kleptomancy items right now, you won't really get any gold. Whoops! Will fix in the next couple of days.
: Hi! This is the first big design decision I want to jump into, as I knew this call would be contentious. To set clear expectations up front: vector casting the W is pretty much off the table at this point. I've observed a good number (12+?) of games, we did very a series of very focused player labs here at Riot HQ, and I've had countless late night conversations about this, and my mind is made up. I'll try to explain my reasoning here! So let's start with a statement of facts and opinions: * Fact: Only two champions (Rumble and Viktor) currently use vector casting. * Fact: Both of these champions have extremely steep mastery curves (mastery curves represent how hard it is to learn a new champion; they graph average win rate over previous games played) * Opinion: Viktor's mastery curve is very out of place for a champion with a point and click ability and two generously sized AOE abilities that have very little nuance to them. This suggests to me that the bulk of Viktor's difficulty lives in just his E. * Opinion: Taliyah's Q, E, and R are harder to learn than Viktor's Q, W, and R. (I'm comparing the parts of their kits that aren't vector cast / potential vector cast) Right. So here's my thinking, again broken down into bullet points. * Vector cast asks you to think about holding a button down (left mouse for normal cast, E for quick cast). No other input (with the possible exception of channel while moving spells such as Xerath Q and Varus Q) in the game does this. * Vector cast asks you to think of both the origin point and the target point in terms of key-down and key-up. * Here's my internal monologue when I try to use Viktor: * "Okay, aim somewhere in range. Got it? Okay cool press the button. Move the mouse. Do you like where the arrow is? Okay, let go of the mouse now. Oh I'm dead because Zed jumped on me? Unlucky." * The next time I try to use it, it goes like this: * "Okay, fine, be quick about it this time. Press drag let go! Uh, that was nowhere near where I wanted to shoot the laser. Fuck. Okay again. Did you just tap the button? What are you doing, brain?" All joking aside, vector cast represents a cast paradigm unlike anything else in League. More importantly, vector cast forces you to input these awkward (OPINION) key presses as quickly as possible, because nothing starts happening until you do. Most likely you're standing still while trying to aim the end of the laser. So we end up with a hard to learn ability that puts a gun to your head and says "don't you DARE taking it slow and learning this ability properly! GO MOVE MOVE MOVE!" On top of that, because all vector casts are walk-into-range type spells (if you use them outside of their range, your character will walk up and cast the spell once you're in range assuming you've not overridden the cast command with a different command) you can never be sure if your cast has gone through. Simple spells get around that problem by having the player spam them. If I'm chasing on Nami and trying to Q in front of an enemy who's running from me, I'll be mashing Q where I want the bubble to go, with each subsequent input overriding the previous input. If I ever am in range of an input I liked in time, the cast will go through, otherwise it won't. Vector makes this super hard because you're asked with constantly inputting a precise directional cast over and over. Instead of "hover mouse where you want bubble to go and mash Q" it's "move mouse to desired start point, hold down e, move mouse so that desired end point lines up with where you want laser to go, let go of E, move mouse back to next desired start point, repeat". This is awkward as fuck. Here are the most salient differences in Taliyah's W cast: * Taliyah's W has an 0.85s delay which begins at W1, no matter what. You have 0.85s to input W2 (which is a massive amount of time in league), and how late you input W2 has no bearing on how quickly the spell will trigger. Take your time and aim well! * Taliyah's W is range-clamped. When you click outside of range, Taliyah will cast as far as possible in that direction, immediately. There's never any confusion on which state you're in. * Both inputs follow standard League patterns of "aim your mouse and tap the button". No holding down and dragging required. * You can move freely after the initial 0.25s cast time for putting W1 into the world. This means even as you decide where to toss them, you can dodge incoming skill shots. I've tested both versions extensively and decided to ship this version. If after reading this you still have concerns about things I may not have considered, please let's hear it!
Speaking of steepness of mastery curves, by the way, the king of that awful hill is still your beloved emperor Azir, whose journey of a 100 games takes him from 37.3% winrate to 52.8%. Uh. I'm sorry?
: This. Everytime I tried using the goddamned thing I ended up losing focus and die. Its so clunky. Its so awkward being used to click and drag on Rumble and then this comes along and my brain goes *beeeeeeeeeeep* IF THE DOUBLE CLICK IS MEANT TO SKILLCAP.... well.... put a smal delay on it?
We knew going in that players primed by having played Rumble and Viktor would strongly prefer vector casting. If you're already used to it, it would make absolute sense. Unfortunately we also know that many players find it extremely hard to learn vector casting, and personally I avoid playing either Rumble or Viktor because I hate the input paradigm. I absolutely do not want to check any mechanical skill with the current paradigm in terms of asking you to jump through hoops to get what you want. I do want to test your ability to predict movement and to decide on the fly where to toss an enemy, but I don't want you fighting the UI.
: Taliyah's W should smart cast like Viktor's E or Rumble's R
Hi! This is the first big design decision I want to jump into, as I knew this call would be contentious. To set clear expectations up front: vector casting the W is pretty much off the table at this point. I've observed a good number (12+?) of games, we did very a series of very focused player labs here at Riot HQ, and I've had countless late night conversations about this, and my mind is made up. I'll try to explain my reasoning here! So let's start with a statement of facts and opinions: * Fact: Only two champions (Rumble and Viktor) currently use vector casting. * Fact: Both of these champions have extremely steep mastery curves (mastery curves represent how hard it is to learn a new champion; they graph average win rate over previous games played) * Opinion: Viktor's mastery curve is very out of place for a champion with a point and click ability and two generously sized AOE abilities that have very little nuance to them. This suggests to me that the bulk of Viktor's difficulty lives in just his E. * Opinion: Taliyah's Q, E, and R are harder to learn than Viktor's Q, W, and R. (I'm comparing the parts of their kits that aren't vector cast / potential vector cast) Right. So here's my thinking, again broken down into bullet points. * Vector cast asks you to think about holding a button down (left mouse for normal cast, E for quick cast). No other input (with the possible exception of channel while moving spells such as Xerath Q and Varus Q) in the game does this. * Vector cast asks you to think of both the origin point and the target point in terms of key-down and key-up. * Here's my internal monologue when I try to use Viktor: * "Okay, aim somewhere in range. Got it? Okay cool press the button. Move the mouse. Do you like where the arrow is? Okay, let go of the mouse now. Oh I'm dead because Zed jumped on me? Unlucky." * The next time I try to use it, it goes like this: * "Okay, fine, be quick about it this time. Press drag let go! Uh, that was nowhere near where I wanted to shoot the laser. Fuck. Okay again. Did you just tap the button? What are you doing, brain?" All joking aside, vector cast represents a cast paradigm unlike anything else in League. More importantly, vector cast forces you to input these awkward (OPINION) key presses as quickly as possible, because nothing starts happening until you do. Most likely you're standing still while trying to aim the end of the laser. So we end up with a hard to learn ability that puts a gun to your head and says "don't you DARE taking it slow and learning this ability properly! GO MOVE MOVE MOVE!" On top of that, because all vector casts are walk-into-range type spells (if you use them outside of their range, your character will walk up and cast the spell once you're in range assuming you've not overridden the cast command with a different command) you can never be sure if your cast has gone through. Simple spells get around that problem by having the player spam them. If I'm chasing on Nami and trying to Q in front of an enemy who's running from me, I'll be mashing Q where I want the bubble to go, with each subsequent input overriding the previous input. If I ever am in range of an input I liked in time, the cast will go through, otherwise it won't. Vector makes this super hard because you're asked with constantly inputting a precise directional cast over and over. Instead of "hover mouse where you want bubble to go and mash Q" it's "move mouse to desired start point, hold down e, move mouse so that desired end point lines up with where you want laser to go, let go of E, move mouse back to next desired start point, repeat". This is awkward as fuck. Here are the most salient differences in Taliyah's W cast: * Taliyah's W has an 0.85s delay which begins at W1, no matter what. You have 0.85s to input W2 (which is a massive amount of time in league), and how late you input W2 has no bearing on how quickly the spell will trigger. Take your time and aim well! * Taliyah's W is range-clamped. When you click outside of range, Taliyah will cast as far as possible in that direction, immediately. There's never any confusion on which state you're in. * Both inputs follow standard League patterns of "aim your mouse and tap the button". No holding down and dragging required. * You can move freely after the initial 0.25s cast time for putting W1 into the world. This means even as you decide where to toss them, you can dodge incoming skill shots. I've tested both versions extensively and decided to ship this version. If after reading this you still have concerns about things I may not have considered, please let's hear it!
  Rioter Comments
: [Tahm kench W] - Buff monsters not getting eaten
Yeah, I had to hook up fully localized text. Should be fixed!
: [Tahm kench W] - When spat, Gromp will fly from where it was eaten
: Tahm Kench - Silence Breaks Tahm's Ult
: Bugs like these, should we use them or not use them or just be smart about it? Won a game using it, but the enemy team was using it too. Hella fun and just crazy all around.
I mean, have fun with it. It'll be gone with the next deploy ;)
Holy shit, you're AMAZING! Thank you so much for these! EDIT: Number 3 should be fixed. The other two--man, I don't even know. Some of the underlying code must have changed. I have a potential fix, but it'll mean pressing devour on yourself will stop your move command, for the time being. You're awesome for finding these! Very game breaking. Thank you so much! The fix for 1 and 2 will go live with the NEXT PBE deploy, some time tomorrow.
  Rioter Comments
: Wow, I didn't know Riot had a team like this. Are there any other big improvements you've made under the hood that you never told the community about?
One of the big things CUTS has done is to re-factor how spell casts work behind the scenes. No impact for you guys (except for that pesky little Xerath bug we fixed pretty quickly where spamming your R had you cast the first one on yourself), but it's a huge bit of old spaghetti code that was removed and cleaned up, making bug fixes and new features in this area much easier going forward.
: Two bugs: (1:) Soldiers do 1,000-2,000 damage. 1: Soldier 2: Attack enemy champion 3: One shot them. 4: It seems to be linked to his ultimate, but I've seen this happen while my ultimate was down. (2:) Lee sin can follow up Q over your ult. Not sure if this is intended. 1: Lee sin Q's you. 2: You ult him away. 3: He Q's again, flies to you through your wall. 4: Cry, because you thought you clutched it but died anyways.
The Lee Sin bug is around people trying to go through your wall too frequently after last being bumped. I'm investigating. The ult bug should be fixed!
: By the time i've tried him, i've also found some bugs: - [Visual] When the passive tower gets destroyed, the minimap still appears without war fog in the range of the placed turret. This doesn't reveal enemies, although. - [Visual/Gameplay] When using smartcast and the option for show range indicators, it's hard to accurate at the correct location of cast. I mean, the W and Q seems to have less range and E's one simply doesn't appear. - [Gameplay] I don't know if the Sand Soldiers are supposed to attack others structures apart of turrets, but when a sand soldier is in range to attack inhibitor/nexus, neither you or the sand soldier will do any damage to the structure. Despite all of this, i like all the mechanics this champ have. Looking for the changes ;)
We're working on the vision one. Soldiers also no longer attack any structures, so the last point should be moot. I'll look at the smartcast range indicator thing, but there may not be a good solution. Thanks!
: [Azir] Working as Intended[?]
Not intended. I'll look at this tomorrow.
: [Azir] - Indicator for duration of soldiers?
Hi, we played around with this during development a lot. At one point we had a circle indicator around them that ticked down. What we found was that in high intensity situations that timer became invisible effectively and in low intensity situations it was unnecessary. We went for the "about to die" indicator only. Maybe we need to make it a little more visible?
: Azir Passive Bug
Oops. Will look at this tomorrow. Thanks!
: Azir [BUG]
Thanks, will be fixed tomorrow!
: Azir's clone on a wall in sr
Oops. Good catch, thank you!
: Azir inhibitor animation bug
Yup! Will be "fixed" tomorrow (as in your soldiers will no longer be able to attack buildings)
: [Azir] Infinite Disk Of The sun Vision
We're tracking this one internally--thanks!
  Rioter Comments
: Azir, Sheen bug
Thanks! Will fix tomorrow!
: Azir where are you? ^^
: Well I've had a problem with the passive. In my passive info there stands it converts 108% of my ability power to armor, I didn't gain bonus armor and it was neither 108% bonus of my ability power that stands in the info
That's live Xerath. PBE Xerath should not be gaining any armor anymore.
: I suffered some loss of sfx when playing him, but i felt that his ultimate didn't have much of a bang to it; it does plenty of damage and the mechanics are fun but being bombarding your enemy just has a very lacklustre feeling to it, the explosions themselves don't feel like an ultimate-level ability. I hope that makes sense. Xerath also feels abit too safe in lane thanks to his passive mana regen. Despite spamming abilities I was able to stick around in lane for ages by throwing an autoattack at the enemy champ. his range is also rather absurd at times but that's part of his appeal as a champion. I can see him working as a supp in a similar vein to Brand supp although his slow would be far more reliable than Brand's stun in lane. I can just picture a Varus/Xerath combo on bot lane, nuking the enemy adc from across the lane in relative safety. Anyways, that's my 2 cents. hope its helpful.
Did you play the most recent version for the ult explosions?
: Fair enough. I feel that cancelling his ult by pressing any of his other skills should be considered at the very least---I dislike cancelling his ult via move commands, since it feels really bad to cancel that way by accident. If I'm not mistaken, Malzahar's ult also has a similar problem.
How do you feel about Nunu and Galio ults? They also have this cancel paradigm.
: Okay, since there is a demand to keep things in one topic, and since I JUST noticed this, I'll move what I originally posted to here. My current impressions of Xerath is that the movement speed reduction on his Q feels a bit severe. You are slowed down to about 208 movement speed (while wearing tier 2 boots), which I feel is a little bit excessive and makes the positioning requirement for using this ability feel really strict. For comparison, Varus without boots has about 268 movement speed while charging his Q. A minimum movement speed around that ballpark would feel more comfortable, especially when we consider the animation commitment Xerath makes on his Q. That's my main complaint. I haven't gotten to play this particular iteration of Xerath against people yet though, so I don't yet have opinions on how he performs against champions. The visual effects however are very good in my opinion, and I would be happy to see them being used on live.
The idea on the Q is that if you hold it for a very long time, you'll be punished (very strong self-slow). If you just charge it up to full range and release, the slow is much milder.
: Does it have a consistent travel time, or is the range it's casted from going to affect how long it takes each missile to land?
The R missile has a fixed travel time of 0.5s, which is also the reload time of the spell. The instant a missile hits the ground you can fire your next shot.
: Copy-pasted my response from the other thread. "I played an earlier version of the rework last year. In terms of gameplay, I really like how Xerath feels compared to live. He feels less clunky with the removal of Locus form, and his skills feel strong, especially when you hit with all of them. I also like his mana return passive to an extent. One thing I don't like in comparison to the earlier version of the rework is the removal of mouse clicking to fire Xerath's ult. While pressing R 3 times to fire the ult is more intuitive, I'm too used to mouse clicking and it took me a couple of misfires to finally get used to pressing R 3 times again, as weird as that sounds. I wonder if there could be a way to integrate both mouse clicking and pressing R three times---perhaps you can make right click fire his ult as well as pressing R thrice, and Q/W/E can cancel his ult. In his current state, I like him a lot. I'm not sure how he would fare against other laners, but his power at lategame is respectable at the very least. I look forward to playing him on live."
We went back and forth a lot on the cast paradigm for R but found in the end that with the current paradigm we had considerably fewer accidental cancels at all levels of skill, and that's the big overriding argument for me. Maybe for those who master it it feels better to left/right click to shoot, but if players who are new to Xerath accidentally cancel their ult the first three times they use it, they won't play Xerath again.
: All things Xerath feedback wise.
Can we please use the other thread I just created? I'd rather keep everything in the one place. Sorry!
: *This is the core concept of counterplay, which we think is crucial to the success of our game. Champions that take away your ability to act in the game make the game worse in the long run, even if they're super fun to play.* Then please, take another look at Yasuo's wind wall. Sorry to be off topic, but I completely agree with what you said, I just don't think its actually being applied to the game consistantly.
Sure, let's talk about wind wall and counter play: wind wall is a short uptime, long cooldown ability that you can literally walk through if you absolutely need to get a missile in. It is also very thin until Yasuo starts leveling it. There is a LOT of counterplay to wind wall: bait it out, step around it, step through it, CC Yasuo, or plain outplay Yasuo by firing a missile when he doesn't expect it and can't react in time.
: Xerath rework now back on PBE
I uploaded some pictures for your viewing pleasure: http://goo.gl/pHrhvy This is Xerath at level 11, 100 AP, all skills at rank 1. The three minimap screenshots are his ulti range at rank 1/2/3.
: Question: does his ultimate still grant vision within his range or no?
It grants vision of a 500 radius bubble at the target location of each of your three shots when you fire off the shot. The vision only lasts very briefly. So no, it basically doesn't. Deep warding and having your team spot for you becomes super important.
  Rioter Comments

ZenonTheStoic

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