: The Krug splitting is most likely just a bug in his coding. It would be highly illogical for him to be punished by his own unique trait.
Can confirm - Ivern's Krug case is a bug I'm trying to fix.
: Complexity isn't a bad thing. Jungling is one of the most demanding roles after maybe Support. It involves the most choices and can change the flow of a game more than any other roll. It needs that complexity in order to adapt to what your team needs for any given situation. Streamlining in this way is just removing options and choices. Yes there is always room for improvement but to remove features is self defeating. Last years jungle rework was huge and easily my favorite change about the game since I started playing. It felt fresh and interesting, it made me feel like my decisions and choices mattered. It felt right and rewarding. Now it feel like something good is being removed. This is an often repeating theme I've seen. Add something only to remove it after a short while. Its like the flip flopping with feral flare, the changes and reverting of Kog'Maw and the removal of fun things like Sword of the Occult. When we talk about streamlining the game I have to ask, who is this really being done for? The 99% of us who play this game for enjoyment and fun or the 1% wearing a team jersey?
> Add something only to remove it after a short while. Its like the flip flopping with feral flare, the changes and reverting of Kog'Maw and the removal of fun things like Sword of the Occult. Generally speaking, I would hope that we would remove things that aren't working. And if an idea is promising enough - that we'd be good enough to give it one more shot and then remove it if it proved not to work again. > When we talk about streamlining the game I have to ask, who is this really being done for? The 99% of us who play this game for enjoyment While no one person can't speak for the majority of the playerbase - complexity does have a way of only rewarding the currently engaged userbase. However, we don't aim to be a game that you attach to continuously 24/7. Our goal for League of Legends is closer to a hobby rather than a game you dedicate yourself to in one continuous stream. It's a disagreement on basic principles at this point - we strive to keep the net complexity at any given time to a moderate level as we pretty much want re-engagement to be the primary thing about the game. Continuously adding complexity eventually creates a wall such that it is insurmountable for re-engagement to happen. > Now it feel like something good is being removed. It feels that way because it's true - as I've stated repeatedly in the post as a disclaimer. Smite Buffs did good work - However, it's important to recognize their continuous costs. Players that have mastered a system don't often realize the complexity costs that the system entails - they mastered it, it's not a cost to them. They have all of the gains and very little downsides. It's natural for them to want to demand more complexity because at this point - they don't have any of the costs. However - piling it on at this point only serves existing players - It doesn't serve any player who would want to return after 2 or 3 years - or any player who wants to get a friend into the game -and- it certainly does do us any favors for a lot of future players if it gets on too high. Raw complexity is not a good thing and we strive to figure out how to efficiently spend what little complexity budget we have for high returns. Typically though - what you buy with complexity is good - and confusing the two leads to a lot of headache. A similar analogy might be drawn for money - money is not inherently a good thing - what you purchase with it is. By making money the end goal - you might actually miss out on the real objectives which is what you can gain from the time spent in the pursuit and that you need to efficiently spend what you have.
: I am very concerned with how the jungle clears will be. Especially slow clearing junglers or power farming junglers. I really hope you will be keeping a very very close eye on junglers ad as some of them will be hit super hard by this. I still think plants are a bad idea and provide less "strategic thinking" as jungle buffs did.
We actually hit upon the slow clearing junglers problem in testing - that's what led to the jungle difficulty tuning that you see which tried to tackle a lot of their problems head on. Power farming junglers are more of a concern as we haven't been able to find a way to support that playstyle in a way that we'd like.
: Why are you adding free escape tools for junglers then? Arent the plants promoting power farming even more?
Plants are interesting because they promote high up-time on the map and some interesting steal opportunities. We can't make every change align with our goals but we can counterbalance potentially unintentional outcomes of things with things we can control. If I make a change to the game, it's likely there will be unintended consequences. However, for the thing to do what it does - sometimes you have to compensate some other thing to manage it. Terrible Analogy, if I got a PS4 instead of an XBox or something - it's likely that some cable or adapter I own won't be compatible. This is a side effect that probably goes against my goals. However, I can't just revert the change - I have to compensate in another system in order to make the original thing do its function without compromising the overall system as a whole.
: Do not do respawn time increases, this will just make junglers feel more like season 2 support style since they will fall behind in gold and exp
Each clear will be worth higher gold and experience than on live. It won't be parity with super farm tactics on live but for the average jungle case it should be pretty similar.
: I really like the rework of junge because with it Riot brings more variation into the game every year. I assume that the respawn was raised so junglers are forced to gank lanes or counterjungling and do not powerfarm hard. What I concern is this sentence on smite "Smite now always heals you if you Smite a monster - healing you for 100 plus 10% of your maximum Health". Do you remember the time where everyone in Toplane was playing with smite when the different smites came out? Yeah - that will happen. I expect that Toplane will mutate into the really beefy lane where tanks will fight in neverending bitchslaps with smite, becasue it heals you for 10% of max HP and the text is not limited to "junge monsters", so it means you can also smite the canon minion and gain the gold and the healing (becasue of higher lifesteal prepare for tanky Irelia and jax - besides that: mundo was nearly unkillable after lvl 6, i dont wanna know how he escalates with the new smite). If this is the intetion of Riot i say it is a good way to do it. Otherwise I would limit it to "jungle monsters".
Oops. Let me clarify that in my post - Smite does only heal when you use it on monsters.
: But riot is such a fan of adding minigames to their game. Don't take thier minigames from them. It's all they know how to do rather than keep something that is working well. Riot has an ossue of saying something isn't working how they want it to just so they can change the game every freakin year. They also never show facts to support their thinking on why this is. They just say it's not working when it actuality...it is.
> They just say it's not working when it actuality...it is. I feel like I have to contest you a bit on this when the start of my post is basically 'Jungle buffs are working. However, they make it hard to add new things to the game that we think will provide more value vs. their complexity cost.' I don't want people to get the impression that Smite Buffs weren't doing good work. They were - for me - this is an incredibly clear case of 'This system works but the amount of complexity it takes up is enormous. If we have something we think is better, we'll have to make the hard choice of streamlining one to introduce something that will better use that complexity.'
: > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=MGd4OBay,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2016-10-19T19:33:36.476+0000) > > Redemption rush on top-lane is a major concern - I agree. > > The main limiter to this is basically whether or not Forbidden Idol does anything for you. For certain tanks, like Maokai - I could see Forbidden Idol providing a decent boost to his lane survivability - but having 800 G worth of stats that effectively do nothing for most top laners sandbags them from getting it early. > > If this does become a problem - which it honestly might - swapping the stats around into MP/5 and Heal/Shield power will pull it off top-lane and more into supports - but my design philosophy is to pretty much to let players play around with it before we have to fix it - because there's a lot of fun experimentation and stuff that I think it's cool for players to try out and see if it works / how broken it really is, etc. I don't personally agree with such a design philosophy in a game like this but to each their own. Another concern I have is that it feels like items still cater to tank supports who already dominate the game. Meanwhile caster supports had their base stats lowered back in Season 3 for utility AP ratios they can't utilize because AP is a luxury stat for them and priority protection items have never provided AP. On average a caster support may get around 85 AP with {{item:2301}} and {{item:3504}} later as a 5th item. But quite several of the caster supports need to break 1-200 AP for the utility on their abilities to really benefit which begs the question "why do they still have them when it's impractical to achieve on average?" What further makes this problematic is that AP supports items ({{item:3174}}, {{item:3504}}, & {{item:3050}}) are all offensive in nature which makes them completely situational compared to reliable protection from items like {{item:3190}} and {{item:3222}}. {{item:3174}} also has the worst of it since it gives inferior AP to its counterparts and because it's completely overshadowed by {{item:3222}} which lets a caster support's abilities scale without granting AP, and the active in general is far more useful, reliable, and a stronger clutch option. {{item:3050}} passive only highlights this issue since 20% of probably your only AP item is very underwhelming. I'm not saying caster supports need a bunch more AP items, but it'd be nice for them to be able to get bits of AP from items that would add up and make the AP utility scaling feel meaningful.
Probably not going to happen in the near future: * Most of these options get co-opted by other classes as defensive AP options is also what a lot of AP bruisers want. * We've found that these items generally just make defensive enchantresses **even more** defensive and harder to kill - and so the tradeoff has generally been - if you get AP on these items - you are going down an aggressive path that needs to take risks to make full use of them. Essentially, if you take advantage of AP ratios - we expect you to take on offensive risk. That's not a great answer to hear because - hey, everyone likes items that give them every statistic they could want. * While the AP ratios aren't being used terribly well right now - I agree with you on that - I don't think simply adding AP to very strong defensive support items solve this - as what it does it make supports **even more** gold dependent to be successful. What likely happens if their core items float up every aspect of their character - the champion's baseline effectiveness will generally go down as their scaling through items has been drastically increased. TL;DR - if we made AP items like this without other severe trade-offs - likely the net result is that the base value of almost every support champion goes down and that the new defensive AP items become core - rather than choices. I'll agree with you that currently, support champions buying primary mage items like Abyssal or RoA is pretty impractical - the long term goal is to make those purchases practical somehow rather than simply shoehorn AP into their core items and severely restrict their item pool to items with that specific profile of stats.
: So, after a lot of thought, would it be possible to swap the recipes of Locket/Banner? having banner of command offer so much armor when it makes minions Magic Immune doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Making it more MR focused would definitely push it towards "Purchase this against AP heavy teams" Locket, as a more "Buy this against Everyone, AD/AP assassins both" means that the build of Glacial Shroud on it would be better. AND on top of that, it gives back some MUCH needed CDR to tank supports who love to buy Locket of the Iron Solari.
Locket being armor focused means that it is significantly worse against most AoE damage in the game (magical). Banner grants armor due to Towers dealing physical damage. It makes the minion magic immune because minions already have innate turret damage reduction and that they really need protection from being cleared by mages. It grants *you* armor in case you need to tank the turret.
: Any plans to alter the way Kindred's marks spawn? With Krugs being redesigned as a time sink camp, and especially with the Large Krugs being resistant to basic attacks, it seems like it would be much harder than any other camp to steal successfully if the Kindred player is unlucky enough for it to be marked.
Nothing currently. If you are attempting to steal Krugs with Kindred - you'd have to do with Smite and Wolf rather than relying on straight basic attacks. I don't know if stealing is harder as you'd want to burn cooldowns to make the steal safely anyway. There are much fewer reasons to use Smite as Smite Buffs are gone - so generally you'll have more charges available.
: I've noticed that when I'm playing with a ranged champion like Twitch, whenever Krugs Split they don't immediately reaggro me, but instead they stay where they are, and because they're not aggro'd I can't use attack move to kill the mini krugs, which is annoying because I'm used to using only attack move and I find it unnatural to have to click directly on top of them. Is this intended behaviour or a bug?
Hm... I'll look into it - it seems like I was overly aggressive making sure they only locally aggro'ed. I'll look at the AI script some more. Thanks for ze report!
: >Camp respawn times increased to 150 from 100 Did I miss something? Do camps give more gold now? If not, this is going to kill farming junglers...
Power farming junglers are something that we're suppressing as we've never really been happy with the gameplay of continuously power-farming your jungle until you come out fully farmed at 20 minutes. This isn't a line we intend to support. In general, the full clear will give more gold and xp than before - but not enough to match the continuous power-farming era.
: I think this is a strange solution to the problem we have with bot laners/top laners starting at a camp. We have seen band-aid fix after band-aid fix that seemed to work okay (with a few exceptions like bot lane gromp start being easier than krugs). I would like to take this opportunity to promote a better solution, in my mind. Is it not possible to make the XP and gold reward so low for non junglers on these camps that they wouldn't dream of taking it? While this does potentially make smite top laners a thing again, you can pretty easily combat that with follow-up balance measures. Start with 1 lane at a time. Noone in bot lane is likely to take smite and if you lower the gold reward for krugs to 20 g and increase the bonus if you have machete or talisman to +50 on those camps, then you don't have to stagger the spawns.
I agree that it's not ideal for the long term because we'd likely want that strategy to have trade-offs and balances. For now, we haven't found that solution yet and the other things we've tried on that is a bit awkward - so we're just going to cap it for now. Map / Gold optimization styles like that are an interesting space that I hope we eventually get around to as it would lead to a lot more flexible meta picks in general.
: Some Feedback and questions 1:Can the enemy see you use the Scryer's Bloom? Being the particles it sends out. 2:Removal of the the Raptor and Wolves smite is quite painful. Are there any plans to add more vision control type buffs to the jungle like Raptor smite or vision like Wolves? 3:The Blast Cones are fun. 10/10 Also can someone be interrupted mid jump while using a Blast Cone, like a {{champion:40}} Q for example?
This thread isn't about primarily about plants - mostly a collection of the actual jungle changes. 1. Yes, like any global missile. 2. Not particularly. Scryer's Dandelion gives a similar amount of detection as it can reveal wards. 3. It works similarly to our other movement effects - so this is possible.
: Quick bug report: Sometimes when krugs splits, one of the krugs goes over the back of the enclosure. Just had it occur twice in a game where I was playing graves. Both times happened on red side (top camp). Probably has to do with them dying after being knocked back.
Hm.. I'll think about how to mitigate this. Thanks.
: It seems kind of odd that respawn times are so long. Won't this make being counterjungled way more punishing? I feel like there will be a lot more time where jungle is just empty or nearly so, which feels like it really kinda diminishes the maps' vibrancy.
This is a valid concern - however, over the years we've added a ton of camps and made other camps more prominent (Dragon). With the addition of plants - there was definitely a whack-a-mole feeling going on where you could never really finish with something before another thing respawned - leading to a continuous loop.
: Feedback's here. New post so you get a notification. I'll sort the positives and negatives (TL;DR, much better than I thought, but some improvements to be made): **Improvements** * All of the camp changes, sans two which I'll talk about later, feel fine or even really good. Raptors and Gromp especially are much better. * Shockingly, I ended up having a healthier clear than before. Probably the Smite change. * I played without SotA for testing purposes. No real change here, Shyv with Fervor is already viable. If Fervor gets serious changes though, this may change, because Shyv has no other good keystone. * You know what? Plants.....aren't that bad. Well, at least Blast Cone. That's fun as hell. But they don't feel that gimmicky to me, which I was pleasantly surprised by. * Nice touch on Scuttle's healthbar color. * Changes in camp respawns feel good. No more whack-a-mole, thank god. **Issues** * Smiting is just braindead now. Actually, no: it _feels_ terrible. Part of what made the Smite buffs good is that they had an immediate, tangible impact (aside from Gromp, but it sucked anyway). You really felt the power of your Smites, and that's also why I like Blue Smite over Red. Now Smite feels incredibly weak compared to how it was, even if your clears are actually healthier and it's technically stronger because of this. * Scryer's Bloom and Honeyfruit are kinda lame. There is basically never a reason _not_ to use Scryer's Bloom immediately, and Honeyfruit is hardly a more difficult decision. * Speaking of vision, the Raptor buff being gone hurts. A lot. * The first clear is awkward as hell because of starting on buffs. I actually feel like I have less choice in pathing now because Gromp / Krugs are so out of the way. Later it's fine. * The splitting for Krugs takes far too long. I'm often just sitting there for a second waiting for them to spawn after I kill a bigger one. Actually, just taking that camp in general right now takes too long, even compared to Gromp. EDIT: If I could ask for any one change, it would be reverting the Smite change (back to buffs instead of heals). Maybe change Scryer's Bloom while you're at it so we don't get Raptor + Scryer's Bloom nonsense.
See initial post for Smite Buff removal context. Yes - it was doing work that, in my opinion, was good - especially things like Krugs for camp clearing. However, it made it hard to add additional complexity onto the map given the sheer density of mechanics and streamlining the number of mechanics on the map to make room for things that we thought could provide more value was the goal here. That's not a contestable point, unfortunately as the amount of complexity that smite buffs added in terms of bits to memorize was deemed too high in total combined with all the other stuff and it's not something we're likely to revert back to unless we tone down the number of other map objectives to a large degree. As far as Krugs being a timesink - that's the explicit goal of the camp. It's 50% more rewards than any other camp in total - but it'll take longer. It shouldn't take an equivalent amount of time to Gromp as the pathing would still make it out of any real path.
: It's not even about the heal. That's just wasting a perfectlly good smite. They can actually take the whole jungle camp, get extra farm, and return to lane with no health loss. A typical ap mid laner, with smite, can instantly clear the camp everytime it spawn. And most of the time, they will get more health back then they lose, on top of the extra exp/gold they get. Players can even buy the accompanying jungle item to get ever more exp, if they so choose to do so, bringing back the "~~Runic Echo Mid Meta~~." (Meant runeglaive. Never played mid.) Or even the top lane "Cinderhulk Meta." (They kill Gromp/Krugs, not scuttle). When you can take a jungle camp and not lose health over it, anything can happen.
Sure - the existence of a camp near mid that can be AoE'ed does mean that the camp is poachable. The real crux is whether it's worthwhile to do compared to other available options. The tactics you've described are available without the changes, for example. Brand with Smite and Hunter's Talisman can take Razorbeaks and heal for more damage than he takes on the camp - whether the tradeoff of having Smite or not is worth giving up a spell. That's certainly been true in the past with Runeglaive. I don't recall it happening with Echoes due to the fact that the Mana restoration on that item is more limited. The mitigating factors around this is that camp respawn times are up by 50% - so while the tactic does have payoff - the rate of payoff is far more limited than what's currently available and that Smite is just much more limited in terms of strategic gains compared to the previous incarnations (Mana, Sight buffs). Smite and the presence of the camp will always arise as problems - and there still could very well be a problem but at a certain point - you do have to prioritize having Jungle be in a good spot and fixing the abuse cases when they come up - rather than continuously stressing about potential exploits while ignoring Jungler woes. The tactic could be valid. Is it uncounterable or does it not have meaningful tradeoffs? We'll see.
: Smite always heals you? That's just asking to be abused by mid/top laners.
Smite always heals you when used against Monsters, yes. Top, I'm not *too* worried about as you'll have to walk down to Scuttle in order to benefit off of that. Mid is more problematic with being able to sap health from Razorbeaks - which could pose a bit of a concern with the amount of healing. It amounts to a potion or two every 90 seconds which is a tremendous amount of recovery. The increased cooldown and increased ammo count is intended to curb a little bit of that - as well as the increased time between respawns.
: What are the new starting camps? Krugs / Gromp are now out, and only Wolves don't hit like a truck, unless damage was significantly changed
Blue / Red are primary starters. Wolves and Raptors can be starts depending on your champion choice or if you're forced into it by an invade. Amumu, for example - basically has infinite Tantrums when doing Razorbeaks because he not only has flat DR from monsters - he also gets tantrum resets. Any single camp will get you to level 2 - so as long as you can do the camp, it should be an okay start. It won't help your pathing much though. You'll also want to think about whether or not you intend to start red side and pick up Talisman for additional AoE help - or start blue side and pick up Machete for the single target camps.
: No lasers on turrets anymore?
Yes. We've stripped out most map elements that we thought either weren't working or weren't doing enough to justify their additional complexity add to the game.
  Rioter Comments
: Quick and dirty idea: what if instead of an aura, the as slow is applied when you hit a champion with an ability or an autoattack?
On the surface, that feels like a duelist / fighter item - most likely geared around winning 1 v 1 exchanges. For example, seems like a perfect item for Renekton to buy vs. auto attack champions - but not as good for an Amumu whose job is to be around the fight - but not necessary be next to the enemy carry.
: It seems like a nerf. The change looks like it reduces the damage from the item's passive against low health targets by about 10% and increases the damage against targets with 1 major MR item buy about 5% Was the old Abyssal too strong?
1. The old abyssal was too strong by a number of factors - purchase rate and order of purchase. 2. The old abyssal was held in check by an MR aura that no longer exists.
: Have you considered making the active on {{item:3050}} just give % or flat AD instead of crit chance since most AD carries get 80% crit chance from their builds? EDIT: Also with Redemption, I get that it's clearly an item very blatantly designed with {{champion:44}} in mind. But what's to stop the item from being abusable by top lane tanks and junglers? The item gives stats both roles appreciate and even if they don't really use the +10% Heal and Shield power much and the active is ridiculously strong for such a low cost item. The stats it gives make it feel more like a tank item then a caster item as well and aside from the active I'd feel more inclined to buy it on champions like {{champion:57}} top lane with the new {{item:3190}} for some really cost effective defenses.
Redemption rush on top-lane is a major concern - I agree. The main limiter to this is basically whether or not Forbidden Idol does anything for you. For certain tanks, like Maokai - I could see Forbidden Idol providing a decent boost to his lane survivability - but having 800 G worth of stats that effectively do nothing for most top laners sandbags them from getting it early. If this does become a problem - which it honestly might - swapping the stats around into MP/5 and Heal/Shield power will pull it off top-lane and more into supports - but my design philosophy is to pretty much to let players play around with it before we have to fix it - because there's a lot of fun experimentation and stuff that I think it's cool for players to try out and see if it works / how broken it really is, etc.
: I love what you guys are doing with the items. This is exactly what I meant when I said I wanted meaningful active items! When and how someone uses a powerful, impactul item like Redemption can have a large impact on the game, something that most other actives (Such as youmuu's randuin's) lacked. Also, I have a bit of a side question. by any chance, did you draw any inspiration from dota2 with this pre season (edge of night, New krugs). I love the changes, and as a casual dota player, I couldn't help but notice some simularities.
There's bound to be some cross-pollination between games - game designers play games for research and we take whatever ideas or concepts that resonate with people. While I don't know about edge of night - The concept of a splitting creature as a Jungle camp for me was probably most from the Rock Golem guys in Warcraft 3 - which is where I assume DoTA's splitter camp also comes from given similar roots. Basically if you remember the epic rock golem creep in the corner of the map that was magic immune / threw stun boulders that guaranteed dropped an item split into two smaller rock golems upon dying. I seem to recall them throwing stun boulders at air ships.
: Have you considered taking Frozen Heart to other directions instead of making it cheaper? It has been a rather problematic item historically, but it would be nice to see it pushed further into the AS slowing area and less about tank stats.
I don't recall Frozen Heart being a problematic item in terms of Game Health. In terms of ubiquity - it has been very popular occasionally as the best Armor item ever. The AS Slowing area has been the most problematic part of it in the past, in terms of power/satisfaction - like all of our auras. Plus the effect it has on screwing up other people's attack timings make us reluctant to continue going down this route.
: I wanna state how much I love Knight's vow, I often play tank supports like Nautilus and Leo, and after a few trades I hated that I knew I would die soon. This items helps me feel much more confident in trades even if I personally am not doing well since the healing could offset my lack of stats. Great item for tanky supports, though the redirect bit overlaps with bond of stone. PS. THANK YOU FOR ADDING A BUFF ICON FOR IT!!!! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} I really enjoy checking my buff icon to see how much I healed in the last fight, how much I covered etc. Seeing those numbers reassures me that it's working well for me, or not. Really would like to see these kind of stat-logs in as many items as possible. (yeah yeah I am asking for too much).
RE: Stat-Logs Locket has a Stat Tracker now - displays total amount shielding and your best single use shield. Athene's has a Stat Tracker for Blood Charges consumed. We may consider other ones - but a lot of the other ones would literally be 'how many times you pushed this button' or would send a lot of item tooltips into crazytown.
: Hi! These items sure look interesting, my Taric is looking foreward to that Knight's Vow :) I also like how banner of command is being a purely tanky item ^^ 1) will the life drain/heal from censer be increased by heal amplification (idol, windspeaker)? Who's the healing's source, there? The support or his ally? 2) why not put any interesting passive on Aegis? Now it's just a stat stick, a but like a mix between chain vest and negatron cloak. I guess it's intended, but weren't there more interesting solutions?
1. The healing's source is the ally, as he's draining the target. 2. Honestly - it was just streamlining. The item didn't need an interesting passive and most of the work was focused on making sure that Locket was still a buyable item even after the aura removal. The stats itself were interesting in a complementary way to Health and also got the item away from Ruby Crystal or bust stacking.
: I love all of the cost reductions however I am concerned about Mikael's Crucible. I fear that with the cc removal and the very large amount of +healing over other similar items it will become the definitive first buy for any healing or shielding support. My worry is by making this the best item you will exacerbate the problem of healing in non interactive lanes. Heals all day, and you cant cc to finish a kill. Not to mention the extra HP regen. I love healing supports and worry this would mean nerfs to them especially Soraka.
That's a valid concern. The hope is that taking the healing off of the active makes this scenario less likely to happen. So it gained 5% healing power and some HP Regeneration - but lost the 150 + 10% healing - the initial thought is that that wouldn't push the healing in that lane over the top.
: Honestly, probably the one single thing that really bugs me about this PBE release is the fact that Abyssal now has a magic damage amplification aura. Ever since the removal of DFG Riot has been seriously avoiding situations like that, where someone just suddenly gets more damage output (hey look at Tryndamere on that matter sometime, would ya?) for one unclear reason or another. Has Riot considered maybe turning it into something that works similar to Leona's Eclipse? Perhaps while in combat it could periodically release pulses that debuff enemies. Said debuff could be triggered by magic damage, thus resulting in bonus damage. Worth considering?
It was a magic damage amplification aura before - this version just explicitly states what it does now rather than having people work through the mental gymnastics of 'oh wait, it's basically a 1 to 25% magic damage amp on nearby enemy champions, depending on their MR and my level'. Basically, I agree with you that it's not ideal - but this is what the old item was doing.
: Ok I haven't had the chance to test those new juicy little things yet but one thing I can say is : THANK YOU. Thanks to all the team that worked on these support changes, as a support main, this means the world to me. I'm impatient to test everything on PBE and on Live ! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
You're welcome. :D Knight's Vow was done by Riot Nekomaru while most of the other support item changes are a bit more diffuse among the systems team.
: So how do you feel about the "control" ward?
I'm a little biased but I think they're more satisfying when you place it and short out other wards.
: Yay, items! Played around with a few of those and what I can say is: * Aegis change is pretty neat. Broken set of stats, but accessible only to supports. * Banner of Command looks extremely promising. Might see play on some specific solo lane picks. * Locket seems underwhelming, though. I understand that the shield is strong - and I love the decaying change, as it promotes skillful use of the active - but the loss of both health and, what's more important, CDR, is going to hurt some tank supports. * Enchanter items changes are pretty dope. Looking forward to seeing some more occasional Karma mid. Censer might even work out on support Lux now. The regulars should be satisfied. * Redemption is great. Everyone who hasn't done that already, try it on Bard. It lines up perfectly with your ultimate. ~~I like how it doesn't have CDR, as it's not an item to rush in lane.~~ (*I'm an idiot, it does indeed have CDR. Well, it seems like enchanter supports will stil overshoot CDR like crazy*) * Knight's Vow - AMAZING item, definitely one to rush, but I'm not sold on the statline here. Paired with the fact that Eye of the Equinox is the only eyestone to grant zero CDR, tank supports are going to have some serious problems to get CDR. Is that intended? This would be pretty much my one and only question here - are supportanks not supposed to get CDR? Zeke's Harbinger doesn't really suit most tanks and with both Locket and Knight's Vow not having it, tank supports are going to have a really hard time getting there. I believe one of the following changes would help: * CDR on Eye of the Equinox * Glacial Shroud or Kindlegem in the build path of Knight's Vow * Zeke's Harbinger Amp Tomes replaced with Aether Wisp * Buff Ohmwrecker (just get the supportanks a good Kindlegem upgrade) Happy to participate in those again ;)
> Locket seems underwhelming, though. I understand that the shield is strong - and I love the decaying change, as it promotes skillful use of the active - but the loss of both health and, what's more important, CDR, is going to hurt some tank supports. CDR loss is pretty impactful, I agree - but it was a major contributor of the 'man, every support build seems to overcap on CDR' issues. While it does lose a large chunk of health (and thus reasons to get the item early) - it has +30 Armor, +15 MR in comparison. Armor + MR on the same item mimics a % Health boost to a certain extent so the loss isn't as bad as I think it might be. Does hurt it in the dedicated anti-magic space - were it not for the fact that it'll have more MR than the live version. The shield active is actually crazy though. I think the best shield I've seen blocked 2700 damage in a team fight. (It has a little tooltip tracker on it displaying the damage you've blocked and your best shield.) > Redemption is great. Everyone who hasn't done that already, try it on Bard. It lines up perfectly with your ultimate. I like how it doesn't have CDR, as it's not an item to rush in lane. It.. it does have CDR. It builds out of Spoopy Idol which has CDr innately. > I believe one of the following changes would help: > CDR on Eye of the Equinox CDR on EoE might be interesting in the long run. I'll think about that for the future. > Glacial Shroud or Kindlegem in the build path of Knight's Vow When we tried Kindlegem on Knight's Vow - we found that we made an item that top laners mostly got. While not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself - there were playtests were there were essentially more Knights than people to bond to. :p > Zeke's Harbinger Amp Tomes replaced with Aether Wisp Harbinger is kind of a terrifying item when strong - so we're being cautious about it. We also have to watch movement speed creep as we've just added one more major form of it in Knight's Vow. > Buff Ohmwrecker (just get the supportanks a good Kindlegem upgrade) Yeah. Our reworks for this item keep failing or other things keep succeeding better than it. >_< > This would be pretty much my one and only question here - are supportanks not supposed to get CDR? Zeke's Harbinger doesn't really suit most tanks and with both Locket and Knight's Vow not having it, tank supports are going to have a really hard time getting there. We want to push support tanks back into considering Frozen Heart as an important pickup for them - hence the cost reduction. They share a lot of CDR itemization with other roles - but Warmog's (Health), Frozen Heart (Armor) and Spirit Visage (MR) should be their three primary CDR options outside of things they get innately like Face of the Mountain. While that may be fairly limited - Banner is also retuned to act as a CDR source for them if they want to aid their team in pushing.
: So the big question I'm left with here is what sort of state you guys think mage vs tank support relations are in right now? As primarily a mage support player, I see quite a lot of focus on improving life for tank supports here, but I'm willing to be told that that's my bias coming through. Looking through the changes personally, I see a fair amount of cost reductions to items geared more towards mages, which is great, but I see the same and quite a bit more for tank supports and that makes me wonder if there's a power gap you guys are trying to bridge here. New Chalice in particular seems like a pretty elegant way of turning items that would typically only appeal to mage supports into reasonable tank pickups (150% HP regen on Crucible is quite a bit better than situational 100% HP regen) so I'm curious if that's the intention. Big buffs to FoTM and EoTE are notable too, which surprises me as balance history in recent time indicates a balance team that feels tank supports are on the strong side. The main thing I'm wondering about after this is just... why the Chalice change, if not to make it more attractive to tanks? I thought the most recent iteration was really interesting to me and felt great and I'm disappointed to see essentially 100% mana regen taken out of the item system. Would be interested to get your thoughts on the amount of mana regen currently available to supports and if you think it's been too high even after the mid-season support update. Perso I thought it was in a good spot :3 But super bias etc. Anyway yay new support items! Looking forward to trying out a few, the only one I think mages won't really like is Knight's Vow.
> So the big question I'm left with here is what sort of state you guys think mage vs tank support relations are in right now? Mostly, I think people are in the middle ground on this actually. While it has been true that tank supports have been thought as powerful recently - as people watch how World's pan out - it does seem like they're in a better balanced state than we had thought before. Now, I'm not on live balance - so grain of salt there as I can't speak for them directly. > The main thing I'm wondering about after this is just... why the Chalice change, if not to make it more attractive to tanks? Just haven't been super happy with the effects of the passive and what it's actually doing. It basically boiled down to 100% mp/5 for everyone who meaningfully bought the item and the complexity of the item vs. what the actual effect was seemed mismatched. So the chalice change is meant to streamline the item - but also make further forbidden idol purchases more and more attractive after you get chalice as they'll be providing additional value. Since every Heal/Shield item builds from an MP/5 core (Forbidden) - it seemed like a real concern that you'd oversaturate on the value of MP/5 and thus the new passive was meant to ease this pain and turn it into a stat that is more useful in certain contexts. > Would be interested to get your thoughts on the amount of mana regen currently available to supports and if you think it's been too high even after the mid-season support update. It's a bit hard to parse the MP/5 status of them due to the fact that they haven't really been building it until later due to the Aegis/Locket items. I think they've always been fine with MP/5 as long as they've built it but the presence of Aegis makes that really really hard to justify building early.
: Just chiming in for a quick question regarding a similar tank-oriented change. Courage of the Colossus: Does it have a CD Does it apply to soft CC like slows? Also, I really love the new defensive items, helps tanks adapt to the situation, really helpful!
Not the main designer on those - so I can't give you much more context outside of specific details: The CD is 30 seconds. It does not apply to soft CC. The shield lasts 4 seconds and scales with your maximum health.
  Rioter Comments
: Yeah, tried again with Sona support. I'm consistently getting about +35% heal efficiency on myself and +25% efficiency on allies. I still very much like the changes so far. Only thing I worry about is the amount of armour on Talisman, I'm looking at building this item on Windspeakers Taric or Alistar and getting Mikael's and Ruby Sightstone. You could also see those two go Face of the Mountain since that active's shield would also benefit.
Thanks for ze report. I'll look into it - I spent the day trying to resolve merge issues with the items. I'll make a note to have someone do a deeper sweep on this.
: Do the Ardent Censer and Mikael's increased heal and shield passive stack additively or multiplicatively with Windspeaker's Blessing? Edit: Are there any plans to tweak Athene's stats?
> Do the Ardent Censer and Mikael's increased heal and shield passive stack additively or multiplicatively with Windspeaker's Blessing? Should be additive. > Edit: Are there any plans to tweak Athene's stats? It's a little early to do stat adjustments - and the item picture is actually kind of murky given that most support items are actually luxury items for that class.
: You guys keep changing Soraka. I love Soraka to bits, but with season 6, I've enjoyed her much less, especially the game itself. I mained her for 6 years, but season 6, I just can't enjoy her as much anymore. You guys keep making changes without any regards to your player base. I play Soraka for her heals, not for the utility she provides. The utility she provides is the icing to her cake, not a layer of cake. I still, to this day, despise the idea of Rejuvenation, especially its unnecessary movement speed buff that warranted more nerfs for Soraka that she never needed to begin with, and didn't struggle without for 5 years. You guys had the right idea of allowing Rejuvenation to grant mana instead of movement, exciting and pleasing many old Soraka players, then you threw the ball in our face and dropped it after. Stop making changes and opinions without any regards to how players feel about champions. There's so much more to a champion than their abilities. Stop forcing shit down our throats and let your players be happy for once. This season has been nothing but drastic, stupid changes to champions and the game itself across the board, and I don't know if you notice, but six and a half months in and you still have an incredibly large pool of unsatisfied and angry players. I've only played 3 matches in the past month, when I used to no-life this game back to back, from when I wake up until I goto bed. Wake up and open your eyes for once. Stop reeling in your success, and realize the community and your players are the reason you guys were successful to begin with. Not your riches and success, but your players and supporters that are dwindling.
I sympathize with you on this. I also mained the original Soraka and I simply cannot play her rework at all. Infusing allies with Mana and playing the resource game was pretty fun to me. It was deemed unsupportable for a number of game health reasons - and her audience has mostly shifted to a pretty different audience now. As to your larger complaint about making players happy - but for a lot of contentious mechanics - it comes down to it's a PvP game. The Playing As satisfaction cases will always always be fought or counterbalanced by the Playing Against satisfaction cases. Prioritizing one over the other will cause as much harm as the other in the end. There are a lot of things that can increase satisfaction for both parties - but healing tends to not fall into this camp that often. If there are more specific things that bug you - I can try to talk about them - but since you haven't called out anything specifically - I'm at a loss as to how to respond other than I sympathize with you that main that both of us have no longer resembles her incarnation that we had in Season 1 and that's about all I can do.
: Hey Xypherous! I've just saw these support changes being deployed. But you forgot something that buinds into Nomad's Medallion {{item:3096}} ... {{item:1006}} is still in it's build path and it gives 50% health regeneration. Which means that when upgrading from Ancient Coin to Nomad's Medallion, you will lose 25% health regeneration. I think a quick fix would be just removing Rejuvenation Bead {{item:1006}} or replacing it with another Faerie Charm {{item:1004}} .
Oh right - I did change the build path but forgot to document it. :/ Let me update my notes - TY for the callout.
: I see your points. Am I to understand, then, that Locket's going to be revamped to take out the aura? While I do think this is a step in the right direction, I worry that you will be taking one of the key things that can buff your allies for fights vs the stupid amount of damage coming from ap assassins (looking at Leblanc here). If this is the case, would it be possible to add an on-hit passive* to your teammates to mirror this rather than completely removing it altogether? It is pretty much the best support passive in the game, which is what makes it so mandatory. Creating an on-hit affect would ensure you are giving the buff to the champ that you want to, creating a more strategic way of play style (I know how much Riot loves us to play more strategically). *by on-hit, I mean that any ability of the owner of Locket that would hit, or benefit, the champion like braum's w or lux's w, lulu's w............i just realized you guys really like to put your buff's on w.
It's definitely true that in order to capture the same feelings of items - we'd have to look into making items that make you care about your allies more - or ways for you to feel like you can aggressively defend allies using your own style. It's a tricky item space to work with - as evidenced by Harbinger - how do you make a protective item that isn't wholly a subservient item? It's not altogether clear that the item system would be terribly off if we didn't support this entirely - but it'd be space we'd be leaving on the table.
: I think I phrased my earlier comment incorrectly. I'm saying that it would be nice to see supports with an item similar to TriForce. > There are two concerns to simply 'let's make Locket overpowered because we know it's mandatory.' This feels like you are admitting that TriForce is overpowered. I don't necessarily think it is, but when I was comparing a support item to getting the TriForce love, you call it overpowered. It would be nice to see a TriForce type item for every type of itemization class. One for mages, supports, etc. You guys push for many options for different build paths, and I think this would be a good option for it. Or maybe just one extra TriForce type item that focuses on AP. Would be interesting to see. As for crowding out other support items, as a support main, I find myself buying the same items a lot for each type of support I play. Tank supports build the same tank items; casting supports buy the same casting/AP items; healers buy healing specific items. There doesn't seem to be that much diversity in the support role. Is that going to change relatively soon? I know you have been doing class updates, but with all of the classes, a lot of the damage dealing and tank champs can benefit from the change in items done with the recent class updates while supports kinda feel like they are getting handmedowns or nothing we can really use. I did like the change to athene's, works super well with karma, but that's all that really changed. It wasn't even added into recommended items for any of the supports. It just kinda sits in the shop as lonely as amumu. I rarely see other supports using it.
> This feels like you are admitting that TriForce is overpowered. Apologies - what I meant was **Locket** is overpowered - and so making Locket have every single stat means you just accept that it's overpowered and purposefully make it so because it's mandatory. As far as Item diveristy goes - I'm making the general case that most builds should likely buy Locket first before any of the other items and the relative lack of synergy that Locket has with other items also means that there isn't really a ton of multiplicative synergies you can rely on to make other item combinations good. Imagine - if you would playing an ADC or a Mage - with the added constraint that your second item *must be* Locket of the Iron Solari. Because those stats don't meaningfully synergize with either your first or third item - your entire item build is going to be warped around buying things that don't interact with each other - for the most part. You can't even buy interesting components in the meantime to solve some of your problems that define your lane pattern - because again - I've forced you to buy Locket of the Iron Solari and its requisite components. This is the case that support is in - where, even if you were a support player that needed more mana or more movement speed early for your playstyle - it's not a good idea. You need to build HP / MR / HP/5 - because that's what Aegis has and that's what Locket will have. Now - your tri-force idea can tackle that a bit - where it literally has every conceivable stat - but making Locket bigger with more stats makes the anti-synergy issue with the rest of your item build worse - as more and more gold is tied up in an early mandatory buy.
: Would it make sense to just make the heal amp unique? If i understand it right, amp+AP is a better choice than stacking two amp items. In other words, amp+amp is a noob trap, right? Is it worth keeping this (inefficient) itemization option at the cost of simplicity (making the amp passive unique would clearly tell that you never need to buy both censer and mikael)? (sorry, I would explain my point better, but my english is bad T__T)
> If i understand it right, amp+AP is a better choice than stacking two amp items. In other words, amp+amp is a noob trap, right? I think Amp + AP can get you similar heal numbers with amp + amp - The heal numbers don't differ that much when you have a realistic amount of AP - and so I'm not too worried with Amp + Amp being the dominant item strategy. But I'm also not worried about Amp + Amp being weak - because it'll give you similar heal numbers. There is also a unique reason to go Amp + Amp is if you somehow wanted both Crucible and Ardent Censer - which I could actually see coming up as a valid tactic in a game - and then your Crucible both cleanses and heals for like a million.
: > We disfavor coin traditionally because the champions that it's designed for also aren't encouraged to do anything active to win. Isnt that kinda the same thing with Locket? Sure you have the active shield that lets you tip the course of a fight every 1 out of 100 teamfights but most of the time your team just profits from the MR aura and i know how much your designers love auras. In fact they love them so much that they have taken them from almost every champion/item with a few exceptions. This is a good thing because passive power is normally hard to appreciate but this can only mean one thing in the long run: Lockets current iteration needs to go.
> This is a good thing because passive power is normally hard to appreciate but this can only mean one thing in the long run: Lockets current iteration needs to go. I am inclined to agree with you that in the long-term I don't really see Aegis aura being good for the game. Removing it requires a lot of secondary changes for the game to feel correct though - as it represents a significant increase to the amount of ambient magic damage being dealt. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea - just there's a lot of things that need to shift and change to account for it.
: Since Locket is so...necessary on the support role nowadays, maybe it would be beneficial to give it the TriForce treatment. Make it somewhat more expensive, but give it everything a support looks for. As it stands, Locket is pretty much only bought on supports (at least from what I have seen) as it gives utility/buffs to teammates. Giving it more stats (maybe nerfing the current stats to compensate) would make this item seem less of a "man, I always have to have a slot specifically for this item" and more of a "ok, this item is key for my build and will help not just my team, but me as well"
> "ok, this item is key for my build and will help not just my team, but me as well" There are two concerns to simply 'let's make Locket overpowered because we know it's mandatory.' It doesn't really solve the core issues of crowding out other support items and letting there be divergent paths. The other main concern is that Poaching and damaging some other class is highly likely - If you made Locket do this function for tank supports - ala Braum - there's very little stopping Elise from using the item and generally being better with it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=NT7UcOWt,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-16T02:48:33.752+0000) > However - the point where I disagree with your stance is that Locket warps the entire game around it and the mandatory nature of the item. Making items try to compete with that seems like piling problems on problems - as it&#x27;s likely that the solutions in this case would be just as poisonous as the thing holding us back. What are the alternatives? Retune the entire AP section of the game so that you can remove one item (or aura portion of that item) that's locked into almost every support build? Lets assume you do that, eventually people will figure out the next most OP thing and it'll be considered the one item like locket is now. You guys just had the chance to do that and instead the balance team chose to rebalance mages around locket. So assuming it stays, any other support item you make is a waste of time on your end if you don't make them worth buying relative to the available items. Edit: Also I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply.
> Retune the entire AP section of the game so that you can remove one item (or aura portion of that item) that's locked into almost every support build? In general - yes - this is the cost of Locket. The alternative isn't any better though. If you don't address Locket and you try to compete by adding an item **as powerful as Locket** - you'll just have to retune the game so broadly the other way. In the end - both changes are pretty massive. You either remove a huge complicating factor - or you introduce one. > Lets assume you do that, eventually people will figure out the next most OP thing and it'll be considered the one item like locket is now. Sure - removing Locket doesn't mean that there won't be a next OP item. However - the question is whether or not that OP item causes us to have to rebalance all mage damage 15% higher across the board. If the next OP support item is something like Spirit Visage - the net damage that has to the game is relatively localized to a single champion or small set of mechanics - not necessarily the entire concept of magic damage past 15 minutes.
: So taking away even more solo carry potential and further pushing the "Play with a team or uninstall" agenda. People shouldn't simply get a slap on the wrist when they fall behind due to a mistake they made, or the way their opponent outplayed them. It should have serious implications for them when they die, even if its early. Missing a wave or two, yeah that's money, that's some exp, but early game that is not enough, that decreases the reward for the risk you take. I see this being nice for supports though, that's something at least.
> People shouldn't simply get a slap on the wrist when they fall behind due to a mistake they made, or the way their opponent outplayed them. While I agree with you in spirit - examining the XP system reveals a couple of flawed aspects: 1. Certain kills are much more rewarding in time than others. 2. The rubberband system overcompensates in some regards due to trying to account for these extremes. Therefore - the general tactic we're taking is: 1. Identify cases where there are extreme outliers in kill rewards because currently - some kills are worth ridiculously more than others. 2. Soften the rubberband system generally such that it can act as a looser general mechanism rather than kicking into overdrive. So, in this case - the specific change is targetted at this scenario - where we identified that a kill was way too impactful over the outcome of the lane: If you kill a level 1 champion, you get 140 XP on live at the moment. However - if they miss a wave, they lose 288 XP. Basically, the value of XP deprivation is at minimum **twice** that from killing a champion early - this relative difference of 420 XP is sufficient to sustain a level+ advantage the entirety of the laning phase. Contrast this with killing a level 6 champion, getting 340 XP - and denying them 288 XP - in which the value of XP deprivation is roughly equivalent to the value of a champion kill. Therefore, the value of the kill at level 1 is mostly in deprivation and oddly enough - it is worth much more in terms of relative power than a kill at level 6. The rubberband system must then work overtime to account for the fact that sometimes, kills grant X amount of power and let the lane continue - whereas in other circumstances an early kill ends the lane. > Missing a wave or two, yeah that's money, that's some exp, So basically - It's not some XP. It's **double to triple** the amount of XP the kill was actually worth at low levels - depending on the specific timing of the wave. This is the outlier case we wanted to tackle.
: There's a chance to improve/fix the hitbox of Nami's Aqua Prison? Constantly I have the visual feeling that hits the enemy but misses
I'll poke someone about this - but no guarantees one way or the other as individual champions tends not to be what I work on.
: These are looking pretty neat, Xyph! I have a few questions for you though. 1. Is the Heal/Shield amp on these items Unique, or can I build Crucible and Censer together for a 30% boost? (Or more if they're multiplicative) 2. Is natural health regeneration amplified by the Heal/Shield power passive? 3. Have you ever considered a larger-ticket support item, ala deathcap, that supports could use to double-down on their utility late game or if they're ahead? Something not stat-efficient in terms of combat statistics, but had unique stats such as heal/shield power, + Max CDR, summoner spell CDR, or increased CC duration.
1. They're not unique - but they are additive. 2. Nope - This stat is different from Spirit Visage's passive which amplifies every source of healing. 3. It tends to be hard to build something like this given the gold constraints and the fact that there's really no sources of 'unreliable' gold for supports to aspire to. The gold system is very fundamentally flawed when it comes to this role in particular in that there's no real way to accrue a huge variance of gold that the super-larger ticket items can fit in well. It's an interesting space but we'll have to do some more groundwork first I think. First off - We probably want to encapsulate all ally buffs somehow - and then keyword that so it can be referenced - then we can talk about the super item that allows for that.
Show more

Xypherous

Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion