: Stormrazor Unique Passive Not Applying Movement Speed Buff
: Anivia Review
I feel like the change has made Anivia more binary, and she just feel ... different... now. During the mage update half year ago, I remember the reason why Riot wanted to change Anivia's R and Q is to make her waveclear less reliable and force her to interact with enemy champion more in lane. The changes currenlty on PBE basically encourage the opposite, as her R becomes a better waveclear tool, and her laning damage and reliablility weakened.
: Anivia changes feel very weak, opinions?
I agree! I feel like the change has made Anivia more binary, and she just feel ... different... now. During the mage update, I remember the reason why Riot wanted to change Anivia's R and Q is to make her waveclear less reliable and force her to interact with enemy champion more in lane. The changes currenlty on PBE basically encourage the opposite, as her R becomes a better waveclear tool, and her laning damage and reliablility weakened.
: I understand wanting to take it slow, but even they stated that Talon seems like he's on the weak-side. I'd argue he's even less than lackluster at the moment, and they said that they'd be handling things throughout the PBE cycle and have only provided a small buff that should've been in place from launch. Since then we've heard nothing.
I agree; I think to some extent riot should be replying us more; On the other hand tho. If they decide to reply one person, they may have to reply to all the post, or it just won't be fair nor efficient, and the discussion will just go no where as there will be too many opinions, not to mention that talon mains like us here in PBE are just too small of a representation of the entire LOL community that may has a say. Anyway, I think they will start talking about him more after next Wednesday!
: > [{quoted}](name=US Treasury,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=00670001,timestamp=2016-11-04T02:49:35.445+0000) > > Talon's map presence is definitely a lot more prominent, and along with his early damage boost, he is going to butcher anyone who he is able to reach. > > On the other hand, his delay in W, R2, his short and interruptable Q, and the shimmering effect of stealth gives his enemies more room to counterplay him as well. > > I wouldn't compare Talon with Kassadin because Kassadin is a lot safer than Talon; a blink on 5-second CD, and 2 reliable ranged instant damaging ability on 6 second cooldown made Kassadin more flexible. > > However, I do agree that his map-presence, if used correctly, will be very overwhelming, and I am actually anticipating him to do better at organized team because he will be OP if teammates collaborate with the new Talon well. > > The new Talon will also definitely be FOTM (well maybe FOTD at least a few days), and have potential to be permabanned because most people outside the PBE all think he is stronger than ever (which may be true), and I would rather see him weaker than seeing him permabanned so I can play him. Talon is not an assasin anymore and his map presence is useless cause you cant kill someone,you just can assist your lane partner but Talon should be the one with kills not with assists.
I do agree his laning is not like before as he loses his in-lane mobility (which I think could used some adjustment) On the other hand, I think Talon with his new Q can actually KS better than the Talon on live, and has a higher chance to get multikills in late game teamfight with his 3.6 Second(with 40% CDR) CD gap-closer-and-clean-up tool(as opposed to 6 at live ) so i am not quite worried about not getting kills. However, I think Talon becomes more team-reliant than before: your teammate has to know what you are doing. I would say, play the new Talon with your friend, (preferrably a jungle or a support) and gank the hella of bot.... unless you are against an akali/zed/katarina in lane, where you can just butcher them instead of roam.
: After the Talon buffs he is extremely on the strong side. There aren't enough wards on your team to be able to cover all the avenues in which he he is able to gank you from, but the only way I see the way to avoid that at this point is to make the wall jump cooldown even longer, and the enemy team absolutely needs to see the cooldown timer on his wall jump. Giving a red indication only on his initial wall jump doesn't do us any good to determine how long the cooldown is. People seem to love the new changes to Talon and how his new kit captures his identity, but he has so much stealth, gap close, burst and ability to traverse the map it is very overwhelming to deal with if you're on the enemy team. I don't want to seem like I'm dumping on his kit, but the new Talon will be a constant perma-ban because it brings back the exact reasons that old Kassadin was completely perma-banned and toxic to gameplay - he has so much burst, gap close and mobility it was completely overwhelming to play against. And now it has stealth.
Talon's map presence is definitely a lot more prominent, and along with his early damage boost, he is going to butcher anyone who he is able to reach. On the other hand, his delay in W, R2, his short and interruptable Q, and the shimmering effect of stealth gives his enemies more room to counterplay him as well. I wouldn't compare Talon with Kassadin because Kassadin is a lot safer than Talon; a blink on 5-second CD, and 2 reliable ranged instant damaging ability on 6 second cooldown made Kassadin more flexible. However, I do agree that his map-presence, if used correctly, will be very overwhelming, and I am actually anticipating him to do better at organized team because he will be OP if teammates collaborate with the new Talon well. The new Talon will also definitely be FOTM (well maybe FOTD at least a few days), and have potential to be permabanned because most people outside the PBE all think he is stronger than ever (which may be true), and I would rather see him weaker than seeing him permabanned so I can play him.
: There hasn't been a lot of positive feedback as of late and it's gone unanswered for quite some time. Is there a specific reason for this?
I think Riot is trying to take it slow and want to wait for feedback from general LOL community, not specifically from PBE players. Talon is certainly different than before, and as his mains some of us may not like how he is changed (thus only few positive feedbacks for now) He does have potential, but this new mechanic is never used on Assassin by Riot in the past so no one can really foresee how the mechanic will play out in live. When many people are complaining how the new Talon is, there are also many other people out there (non-PBE player) who thinks Talon is stronger than ever. (just look at the youtube comment section on his new champ spotlight), so no matter how strong or how weak people think he is, I don't think there will be any big change happening to him before the next PBE roundup, because he is unprecedented. and we can only wait and see. P.S I do think his early damage or his AQA speed will get some adjustment... eventually
: Talon's invisibility is still being revealed by non turret sources. leblancs chains definitely still reveal and i believe rengar's ult does as well. while i haven't tested every ability i'm pretty sure it's all abilities from champions that can currently reveal stealth champs on live.
YES! I don't know whether it is intentional or not, but things like LB's E or Kat's R make Talon visible, unlike it is before.
: I'm probably going to get downvoted hard for this, but I hope Stashu is being very liberal when it comes to taking advice on this thread. At first, people had reasonable complaints about Talon's new state, like a bit of range on Q or giving E a utility-passive component so it's not entirely useless in lane. Now I see so many people incessantly complaining about this rework in so many skewed ways, as if Talon needs to be radically different from all of the other assassins (and yet this contradicts everyone's near-unanimous need for Talon to have a blink, just like almost EVERY OTHER ASSASSIN), needs to be cometitively viable, and needs to have the old and unfair mechanics he has now on live. I've kind of given up on most of this thread in terms of feedback that will make Talon fun and NOT BROKEN OP. First off, Talon is NOT going to be 100% unique, not many champions are; there's going to be some overlap as a guarantee. Assassins, in their very nature, are quite binary, since their whole purpose depends on the existence and elimination of a squishy carry. They all are designed around this concept, so it's hard to expect uniqueness apart from aesthetics, personality/lore, and a small handful narrow kit mechanics or concepts. Second, most assassins are currently BARELY cometitive (at best) because of the first point, and other champs and roles can do what assassins do and more, making the need for assassins being pro material to be moot. Viktor, for example, is a mage that has burst, mobility, roaming potential, and can shut down many midlaners, like an assassin, but he also brings range, safety, fast waveclear, CC, AOE, and many other things that would be unhealthy on a fast-paced and dangerous assassin like Talon. Third, the fact that Talon's current E blink is being removed and his W being delayed is opening up so much room to balance Talon in more healthy and mechanical ways. Riot has literally dubbed the phenomenon "The Talon Effect", where a champion only has a high winrate because its low playrate is almost entirely made up of mains and OTP's, and it was always hard to balance Talon because he was so easy to break or be made broken by his extremely binary and 90% damage-based kit. Because of his kit currently being damage focused, if Talon wasn't a spellcaster, he would be in the same state as autoattack focused melees like Yi, XIn, or Trynd, where the most realiable and safest way to balance them is only by numbers, which is a very shakey method of balance. Finally, there's no "outplay" in one spell that puts you directly behind your opponent the instant you cast it, contrary to what many people are saying. Once again, it's binary. Either the opponent saved CC and fired it behind him right after your blink, or he panic-burned it and died for making one mistake in the heat of the moment. Granted, mistakes should be punished, but this kind of mistake is one that isn't one worth learning from during that game that you died to Talon in, because once he kills you in lane, he's just going to snowball so hard that saving your CC and doing it right next time won't matter. The snowballing from one mistake will let him blow you up even more easily. With other assassins like Fizz, he may hit his shark on you, and your probable death will most likely snowball him, but next time he throws that shark, you can dodge it, and you still have a chance to fight back after (so long as your team doesn't snowball him too when he roams).
Thank you for making some really good and rational points. While I agree with the most thing you stated in the post, I would like to make some rebuttals to some other points you mentioned, hopefully we can have an "intellectual Talon discussion" going here! Talon is one of my two-trick mains since S2, and he helped me achieve diamond in TW, and plat in NA at my peak(s). (Have more things to worry about after I came to college in America 0.0) and I would like to provide some insights: To reinforce the things you mentioned: I think Talon's new kit is at a pretty good spot right now. There may be some need for number's tweak here and there, (I think his damage pre-late game may be a little bit too high) and although I am a strong advocate for Talon getting his blink back (without changing its Q range)(I will elaborate on this later) Even if he doesnt get it I will still love Talon to death. I think Talon is stronger in the sense of: -Early game damage. If a Talon manages to proc that passive it’s basically a guaranteed killed -sustain during lane (which I don’t agree because I think Talon should be more high risk high reward, but hey it’s good to have!) -Roaming. Especially in an organized team, his new roaming ability, combining with his very high early game damage, can be overwhelming toward the other lanes. -Better tools at chasing enemies: With E and Q, an experienced Talon can chase down his enemy much quicker On the other hand, counterplays are added: -Delayed W and R2 -Short range of Q -Q can be controlled by CC -Dodgeble Q: Q’s damage can be dodged by flash or spells such as Lucian’s E (if timed correctly) -The shimmer effect during stealth. Right now, on PBE at least (where everygame is comprised of squishier champions like Assassins) Talon, damage-wise, is on the strong side. I still haven’t decided on his utility tool yet but they seem to be at a good spot. But again, this is PBE, so things may feel really different on live. Something I would like to discuss: Does Blink = outplay? For me, the answer is yes and no; I never use blink just to get close to the enemy; I always use it when it can actively dodge a spell from enemy champion WHILE getting close to the enemy. In this sense, I would still call it an outplay because this means a successful trade. However, I do agree that once a pre-reworked Talon is ahead, his E is not a spell to outplaying-his-enemy anymore; it is just an unhealthy all-in-your-face spell. To reinforce my point, for the pre-rework Talon, for example, he has a weaker pre-6 laning phase compare to many champions, and his E is the only thing that helps him outplay a Zed(by dodging his WQ), a Diana(dodging her Q), or a yasuo(dodging his Q3) pre 6. So yes, if I killed a Zed pre-6 by dodging his primary damaging spell using E, I would say I outplayed the Zed. On the other hand, there are also a lot of things a behind Zed can do to me to outplay me.) The blink also adds some flexibility when it becomes a 1 v 2 (i.e. when their jungler is ganking) For instance, by using E, I can trade place with the enemy Vi or Jarven. Most importantly, the blink can be very important for a behind Talon, for instance, against a fed Fizz or Riven. After the rework however, let’s say a Talon is behind a Zed in gold and level, there won’t be much a Talon can do to the Zed except for ulting, or E to run away; A talon will still be able to use the window of his enemy’s CD or stuffs but that’s pretty much it, not to mention that an experienced enemy will know that as well, and he can just simply back away for few seconds to wait for his CD. I guess what I am saying is that other assassins mid-laner who is also pretty good at roaming has a tool to do something against an ahead champion (or to outplay). For a new Talon, if he is behind, he can’t do much in his lane anymore, and he can only roam and support the other lanes. If the enemies in other lanes are also ahead, then there is really not much a new Talon can do anymore. All in all, I am not asking that his Q to have a 700 range (like it is now on live); It doesn’t even have to teleport Talon behind his target; something like Ekko’s E2 is sufficient. I just think that the new Talon’s laning kit could use some mobility sharpening, such as a short-range blink as what I was suggesting.
: My point about the blink is not about positioning and potential mind games, it's a tool to avoid CC since assassins usually don't and shouldn't have hard CC, shields or a way to tank damage. In my opinion there is counterplay to Ekko's blink, Zed's blink and I think the new katarina gets a few blinks from daggers to daggers. Talon's blink usually was a great tool to deal with skillshot mages like Ahri. Especially since the silence removal, it was pretty much the only tool that made him able to deal with mages and any other ranged champions. My point is there is already enough counterplay to his Assassin Path (E) because the animation takes some time, his Rake (W) has a delay and his passive is fairly predictable since it's pretty much a 4-hit ability (3 hits needing a basic attack to proc it). A blink wouldn't make his new kit unhealthy. Like I said in a few other posts, making his Q a short dash like he already has PLUS a short on-target blink, similar to Ekko's E would make his new combat mobility less binary, giving him a chance to use it as an engage or as a possible escape. And it doesn't have to be the exact same spell, Yasuo's Q and Rengar's Q are pretty similar while still being different. Something else that I don't understand is his sustain implemented in his new Noxian Diplomacy. An assassin shouldn't really have that kind of sustain, unless it fits the champion's identity like Kha'zix or maybe Rengar. His new sustain feels kind of out of place and bruiserish. As a Talon main, I now feel extremely confused about his role, because I now feel like I might have to use him in the jungle or in the top lane for better results. He feels really strong against melees but easily kiteable by ranged champions. I'm not afraid of changes, hell I love it, but I feel like his intended role has been altered and his identity feels slightly off.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU; Talon still kills very efficiently, but he feels more like a skirmisher/bruiser now. (Which I can live with, but need time to get used to as it's different than now) To add on what you said about blink, I consider his blink as a primary identity for his laning and for 1v1 dueling. I think the range of Q is at a good spot, and like you said, making his Q to have a blink mechanic will really really make him more fun/interactive while in lane and during 1v1 dueling, while still being counterplayable because of its short range. (TBH I will be very very happy already if they simply just change the Q to the blink while maintaining the range) Also, for enemies that are ahead, a blink could be an "expression of skills" that give good Talon an opportunity to outplay them; otherwise, right now there is limited room for that as his kit is more binary in this aspect. I also think the healing in Q is kind of weird, and it also doesn't suit his identity. I would say remove the sustain and adding the power to his in-lane mobility (such as adding a blink mechanic) Thank you for typing all these; you basically typed everything I wanted to say about the new Talon!
: Strange, i in order to miss the w, you should be realy bad, how can you miss the w If you are on the oponents back? You can also move, you know...(a "little bit worst"). Also one of the combos i use to engage is unaviable and when i said spins i meant w and ulti probably it was hard to imagine for you, im sorry. PS:if you use your brain a bit, you will notice that if you are in the back of the oponent, you hit at least 2 more blades from talon ulti.
> you hit at least 2 more blades from talon ulti. Talon's R deals the same damage regardless of the number of blades passing through his enemy. You won't deal more damage if you have more spins.
: > [{quoted}](name=Not Etherwolf,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=0051,timestamp=2016-10-21T21:22:33.982+0000) > > I don't have the time to go through every comment to see what's up, so I'll make my own. Some things I've noticed about Talon: > > * his W has a bit of a flaw, and that's split between the range of the projectiles, the width of their spread, and the delay of their return. Considering all the damage from Talon comes from his Passive, which requires actually landing abilities AND a final AA to proc it, one of these three factors needs to change in order to make his passive reliable. Talon's Burst should not be reliable. It should be consistent but also an expression of skill.
> Talon's Burst should not be reliable. It should be consistent but also an expression of skill. YES!
: Ummm... he can blink with q (same as how he can E on live servers) or he can flash (same as on live)... He literally has more options open to him now than he did before.
> he can blink with q (same as how he can E on live servers) His new Q is no longer a blink (unlike on live server), meaning that it can be stopped by cc such as a Lux's Q or Syndra's E.
: @Riot Stashu Kind of concerned with the usability of Q. it feels quite clunky, When testing talon i found that i could not simply use Q without already attacking a target / being in combat. I also wasnt able to be use it to reset auto attacks on towers, Is this inteded? Previously with onhits such as rengar Q, the onhit would still reset your swing animation, But the proc was not used up and would simply expire. Im also tentative that having the double auto reset on the Q proc then the follow up attack is simply unhealthy hidden power than could be afforded to his kit elsewhere. It currently feels like talon has insane burst vs weak early melee match ups but doesnt have many options in ranged matchups that were previously even. This is concerned because the majority of mid lane matchups for him will have a ranged discrepency.
Q now is more like a Khazix's Q, you have to click on your target! > It currently feels like talon has insane burst vs weak early melee match ups but doesnt have many options in ranged matchups that were previously even. This is concerned because the majority of mid lane matchups for him will have a ranged discrepency. YESS! Couldn't agree more.
: Responding here since there's a couple posts in this sort of general direction. It certainly seems that Talon is weak, so I suspect that's contributing to a lot of these observations. In the next build, Talon will be buffed substantially (+5 AD, +5 HP/lvl, +0.2AD ratio on passive) to increase his baseline effectiveness and allow him to access some of his newer options more reliably. That said, I know there could be more to it. I really appreciate your (and everybody's) attention to those focus points. Things we have in out pocket in case target selection is, in fact, as bad as it seems: Q dash range up, E landing distance over wall up, R speed up. I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on these, as I know there's a huge learning curve on using E to position before a team fight, but I can imagine landing on any of those changes. If up front damage turns out to be the problem, the up front part to pretty much any of his abilities has some room for additional power. I'd like to see what happens with the current buffs and more time for people to learn the ins-and-outs of E before going any further. Thanks to everyone sharing their reactions like these! And keep it coming if things don't feel any different after a few games.
After playing a few more games, here are some new thoughts: **First, and THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Talon's stealth feels different than before; there were some occasion where I was AAed to death during my ult (in other words, I was visible; I don't know why. My screen is not tinted anymore as well so I know I am not stealthing.) Did anyone experience this as well?** other than this, -I am actually really enjoying the new Talon!!!!!!!!! -In lane, he is ridiculously strong against a squishier melee champion like Akali, Kat, etc... That being said, although playing against a ranged champion may be a bit less interactive IF YOU ARE ABLE TO REACH THAT LUX/SYNDRA/ZIGGS (after they use their primary CC) with a Q or (preferably) an E, he/she will be deleted in 2 seconds. In other words, his early game damage is way higher than before.. ~~maybe a little bit too high.(I am so going to get downvoted)~~ -He doesn't kill as fast as before, but he still kills rather efficiently. His E is actually not that useless in late game teamfights... at least for the games I played on PBE. (But again, it is PBE, so in live it may still be a lot different) The new Talon is about **_choosing a right place to fight and really get to know the map well so he knows where he can jump and jump to. (there are some small section of certain terrains which, if used correctly, allow you to jump back and forth)_.** -This being said, with his focus shifting more to map awareness, I do feel that Talon now is less mechanically difficult (which is a double-edged sword that former Talon mains may or may not like to see); also, because of his straightforwardness, his laning against ranged champion becomes less fun/interactive. Again this may be intended because of his really-high damage potential. **-For now, I think the Q range is alright and is actually at a good spot; the speed of AA Q AA may need to be relaxed a little bit (maybe make it scale with level?) ; also, I just still really really hope that the Q can be a blink, because it solves some commonly raised problems! It gives Talon player a more interactive feel when laning, and it also opens more rooms to outplay opponents,(which is a harder thing to do because of the straightforwardness of his new kit) especially in lane and during 1v1 dueling, while still giving him ample of room of being counterplayed because of its short range.** @Riot Stashu: If you are reading this, THANK YOU SO MUCH, both for reading this, and re-designing our favorite champion. Talon is one of my two-trick mains from S2(besides Anivia) and is also the reason I stick with League until now, and it's just amazing to see how he is revamped. Really really appreciate it!!!!!!!! <3; take some good rest over the weekends; this is definitely a really busy week for you :DDDDD
: Big Props guys, you did an amazing job with this rework, much love. Now, Q can be activated right after an AA as before for the reset, but what happens on the PBE is that he drops a 3rd auto instantly after the Q which looks and feels weird. Removing this is ofc a nerf on an already seemingly weaker champion. What i would like to see is his ranged Q range increased or/and his dash speed increased. That aside, what really bothers me, and i know you said u wanted to make his burst be slower, is that on top of the delay on the second part of his W, he also seems to have a pretty long channel time for said ability. Really has to go in my opinion. Wasn't able to pay much attention for his R but seems to have the same changes as W, can confirm please?
I think his Q is no longer an AA reset-er, instead it's a point click skill that looks like an AA(think Khazix 's Q) ; it can't be used on towers, and it doesn't trigger on hit effect like Tiamat either. His R has a tiny bit of delay when coming back
: Does the infinity edge passive work with the Q crit damage?
: What if his E just has +flat movement toward an enemy? Like 750 range and starting at 20 or 30 and going up by 10 each rank?
I feel like what the new Talon needs is a mobility tool that makes it more reliable (if only slightly) to approach his target; I think an increase in MS alone will not be enough; I do think it is a good direction to make E having some in-battle stats though!
: Talon secondary main (Eve mid is my primary main) here, new talon feels fun, but also rather underpowered. His passive is cool as long as the auto attack reset on his Q stays as it is right now on PBE. Pre-rework, Talon sometimes had difficulties getting even a Q off with the Q auto reset in a teamfight, because of how little time an assassin on the backline has before he gets melted. Now, having to get an auto off AFTER using all your skills feels like it would be almost impossible in a coordinated teamfight if the Q auto attack reset is nerfed. His Q feels like a worse version of Irelia Q. Dash range is very short, damage is decent, auto attack reset is great. His W, while it has better waveclear and longer range, feels a lot less reliable, meaning ADC's can easily get out. His E, while fun as heck, doesn't seem as useful in combat, and his blink was honestly the second most iconic part of Talon's kit to me. His R damage got reduced, but the guaranteed invisibility is great. Overall, Talon feels like he's very very underpowered now, and not just because of a numbers issue. Having his blink removed and his W getting a delay, and his R damage nerfed, it feels like there's almost no guaranteed damage you can get against an ADC with Flash, even if you get the perfect flank. Also, playstyle (in combat or lane) feels much more straightforward without the blink to dodge skillshots and get behind the enemy. Before, if an Ahri used her EQ incorrectly while mispositioning, you could E to dodge them both by going behind her, then chunk her to punish for the trade. Now you have no real way to avoid things like that anymore. Other than the roaming, Talon feels more boring and much weaker now.
Really agree with the laning phase part; I miss the time when I could dodge the entire Lux combo using E.
: I like the rework thematically...but Talon in game feels really weak. **_Anything at all about the new E. Is it fun? Difficult to use? Does it suit Talon? Bugs?_** It's fun, like really fun and I believe it does suit Talon but the CD on it to jump over the same terrain is simply too long. Riot wanted him to be a roamer but Talon is basically a really fast one time roamer and then mediocre for the next 2 minutes. My other concern is that it just doesn't do anything else, no damage, no other utility (like extra movement speed) and it's hard to tell where I would land. **_With his new but different set of mobility tools, do you feel able to get on your desired target?_** No, it's actually much harder to get to my intended target because Q's range is simply too low and E is extremely dependent on my target's position. If the target is not close to a wall then it's almost impossible unless I pop my ultimate for speed boost (which is not ideal). It would be nice if Talon could receive a longer dash or a mechanic similar to Ekko's E. **_With higher potential damage but lower up front damage, do you still feel empowered to kill your target enemies?_** Sadly, this is also a no. The damage on Talon is so delayed that by the time the full "potential" damage comes to play the target has been peeled for, dashed away or flashed away. There's counterplay but too much counterplay? Also, it doesn't fit Talon's identity. Talon's identity IS up front damage let the Zed's of the world have the identity of potential damage. **_When in the game do you feel powerful / weak (early / mid / late) and in which circumstances (enemy has all/no squishies, I was able to roam / I was pushed in, etc.)?_** Early: Feels horrendously weak. Q is my only dodge spell but also the best trading spell and W's delay feels bad in general. Mid: Definitely Talon's strongest point still but weaker than what it is on live. Talon can still pick people off just not as reliably which also limits his snowball potential. Late: Useless, yes I have damage but no reliable way to get the damage off (Q range too short, there's too much damage on the other side for me to kill, even if I do get in the teamfight I'm still a kamikaze suicide bomb but with even weaker AOE and more delayed burst). Rate: 4/10 Theme? Awesome. Execution? Not so awesome but I'm sure Riot will figure things out. **Update** This is an updated opinion I have after playing some more games and learning more of Talon's ins and outs post rework. I'll give my opinion on each ability and then give an overall opinion of the rework. **Passive**: This is what Talon plays around now. A large chunk of damage comes from this passive alone due to its high ratio (200% bonus ad scaling). This is also the reason Talon can out damage MELEE champions in laning phase. Since Talon needs to play around a 3 mark + 1 AA hit activation, his inherent burst is definitely slower (not by a huge margin) which is exactly what Riot was going for. **Q**: I still think this ability needs to have its range increased and/or be turned into a blink. Other than that, this ability definitely has a lot of damage tied into it and because of its low cd, Talon has some room for outplay with this ability. **W**: Has more damage than the current W which makes the Tiamat/Hydra buy not as core as before. I actually have really fallen in love with his ability because of its wave clear meaning I don't HAVE to buy Tiamat/Hydra just to push wave against the likes of Syndra, Viktor, Anivia, etc. Delay still kinda sucks but again Riot wanted Talon to have more of a delayed burst so it's okay (it'd be nice to see a slightly shorter delay though). **E**: The wall cd scaling off cdr is a big improvement and increases its usability however, this ability is still really lacking. If E were to get a small decaying movement speed boost I think this ability would be awesome. Other things to add, it would be great if Talon could Q mid-jump or towards the end of his jump to make the EQ interaction smoother. I also don't think R should be canceled by E (I am aware Talon could E and cast R mid jump which is nice) **R**: Tooltip is kind of confusing. Some people say that each individual blade does damage and others say its like the live version where R only hits twice. It'd be great if there was more clarity in the description. HIs R is fine though in my opinion. **Overall**: Talon has a ton of damage but still needs some bit more utility to stay sticky on his target. Also, this rework has definitely made me think more about what summoners to take and made me change my build (although the build isn't too drastically different). Basically, {{item:3142}} {{item:3158}} {{item:3071}} Edge of Night (new assassin item) {{item:3147}} {{item:3156}}/{{item:3026}}/{{item:3031}} I've also been liking {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:6}} more than {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:14}} Forcing me to change builds according to situations is a big plus for me for any champion especially if its my favorite champion. **Rework Score**: 7/10 **Pros** 1. Abilities synergies well with one another and does give Talon a unique feel 2. His damage is most definitely still there 3. Builds are not always the same, you actually have to adjust to the situation 4. Melee Laning matchups are better for Talon (going against ranged is horrible though). Honestly, his early damage is so high that I think Talon Bruiser top will be a viable thing but I need to test it out some more. 5. More slippery because of E (assuming you don't have walls on CD) 6. A lot of flanking options because of E **Cons** 1. E is still limiting and doesn't provide much to the table other than a one time fast roaming experience (during laning phase). 2. Hard to reach and stay on his target if a fight is in an open area. This is the reason why i opted for {{summoner:6}} than {{summoner:14}}. {{summoner:6}} has secured a lot of kills for me as well as took me out of a lot of bad situations and its short cd makes it a good pick. 3. If walls are on cd Talon is really limited in what he could do. Flanking options, escape options, engage options, traveling options all get limited all at once as soon as Talon uses a wall. 4. Ranged matchups are a nightmare to deal with (Lux, ZIggs, Morgana, Xerath, Syndra, Viktor are horrible) 5. Q is your gap closer and highest damaging ability all in one which actually sucks 6. 335 ms makes me sad
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________ After playing a few more games, here are some new thoughts: **First, and THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Talon's stealth feels different than before; I can be revealed by abilities like Katarina's R, which is different than before. I don't know whether this is intentional or not. ** other than this, -I am actually really enjoying the new Talon!!!!!!!!! -In lane, he is ridiculously strong against a squishier melee champion like Akali, Kat, etc... That being said, although playing against a ranged champion may be a bit less interactive IF YOU ARE ABLE TO REACH THAT LUX/SYNDRA/ZIGGS (after they use their primary CC) with a Q or (preferably) an E, he/she will be deleted in 2 seconds. In other words, his early game damage is way higher than before.. maybe a little bit too high. -He doesn't kill as fast as before, but he still kills rather efficiently. His E offers a lot potential during late game teamfights... at least for the games I played on PBE. (But again, it is PBE, so in live it may still be a lot different) _The new Talon is about choosing a right place to fight and really get to know the map well so he knows where he can jump and jump to_. (there are some small section of certain terrains which, if used correctly, allow you to jump back and forth). -This being said, with his focus shifting more to map awareness, I do feel that Talon now is less mechanically difficult (which is a double-edged sword that former Talon mains may or may not like to see); also, because of his straightforwardness, his laning against ranged champion becomes less fun/interactive. Again this may be intended because of his really-high damage potential. -For now, I think the Q range is alright and is actually at a good spot; the speed of AA Q AA may need to be relaxed a little bit (maybe make it scale with level?) ; also, I just still really really hope that the Q can be a blink, because it solves some commonly raised problems! It gives Talon player a more interactive feel when laning, and it also opens more rooms to outplay opponents if he is behind,(which is a harder thing to do because of the straightforwardness of his new kit) especially in lane and during 1v1 dueling, while still giving him ample of room of being counterplayed because of its short range. **@Riot Stashu: If you are reading this, THANK YOU SO MUCH, both for reading this, and re-designing our favorite champion. Talon is one of my two-trick mains from S2(besides Anivia) and is also the reason I stick with League until now, and it's just amazing to see how he is revamped. Really really appreciate it!!!!!!!! <3; take some good rest over the weekends; this is definitely a really busy week for you :DDDDD** _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ My stance on Q; instead of making Q having a longer range, I feel that the range of Q is at a pretty good spot. However, it will be nice if the Q is turned into a blink like Ekko's E2. Why? In short: -its short range still makes Talon easily counterble. -a blink increases Talon's laning interaction as well as his flexibility, adding a little more depth into his kit. Is blinking on pre-reworked Talon = outplay potential? For me, the answer is yes and no; I never use blink just to get close to the enemy; I always use it when it can actively dodge a spell from enemy champion WHILE getting close to the enemy. In this sense, I would still call it an outplay because this means a successful trade. However, I do agree that once a pre-reworked Talon is ahead, his E is not a spell to outplaying-his-enemy anymore; it is just an unhealthy all-in-your-face spell. For the pre-rework Talon, he has a weaker pre-6 laning phase compare to many champions, and his E is the only thing that helps him outplay a Zed(by dodging his WQ), a Diana(dodging her Q), or a yasuo(dodging his Q3) pre 6. So yes, if I killed a Zed pre-6 by dodging his primary damaging spell using E, I would say I outplayed the Zed. On the other hand, there are also a lot of things a behind Zed can do to me to outplay me.) The blink also adds some flexibility when it becomes a 1 v 2 (i.e. when their jungler is ganking) For instance, by using E, I can trade place with the enemy Vi or Jarven. Most importantly, the blink can be very important for a behind Talon, for instance, against a fed Riven, or Syndra, something which will be very very very hard without a blink. After the rework however, although Talon has higher damage in lane, let’s say a Talon is behind a Zed in gold and level, there won’t be much a Talon can do to the Zed except for ulting, or E to run away; A talon will still be able to use the window of his enemy’s CD or stuffs but that’s pretty much it, not to mention that an experienced enemy will know that as well, and he/she can just simply back away for few seconds to wait for his/her CD. In another word, there is limited mechanical tools a Talon can use against an ahead enemy. I guess what I am saying is that other assassins mid-laner who is also pretty good at roaming has a non-ultimate tool to do something against an ahead champion (or to outplay). For a new Talon, if he is behind, he can’t do much in his lane anymore; he can only roam and support the other lanes. If the enemies in other lanes are also ahead, then there is really not much a new Talon can do anymore. All in all, I am not asking that his Q to be a blink that has a 700 range (like it is now on live); It doesn’t even have to teleport Talon behind his target; something like Ekko’s E2 is sufficient. I just think that the new Talon’s laning/dueling kit could use some mobility sharpening, such as a short-range blink as what I was suggesting.
: His kit was revealed in the [Preseason Post]. I don't really understand what the point of your post is.
Sorry my writing is justt too disorganized. Anyway the TL DR version is the last paragraphs: "Overall, I think Riot did a pretty good job reworking Talon. However, I do want to address one concern: -Matchups with Ranged champions that have CC (i.e vs most of the mages) will be a lot harder, because of his delayed W and his loss of a blink. Since his new E won't be very useful in laning phase, he relies on his Q to approach his target. However, if he uses his Q to approach, he loses the portion of damage which I think is quite essential for an effective trade. The same goes with ganking;since he loses some damage in his R, and since his W is already delayed, meaning the chance of enemy dodging it has increased quite a bit, I just think a short range dashing mobility tool on a 4-8 second cooldown makes Talon too easy to be counterplayed; this is even more true during a large-scale late game team fight. I really really hope that Talon's Q can be adjusted to become a short-range blink Q (like Ekko's E2), as this will help quite a lot in his laning phase and ganking, and teamfighting, while still making his opponent having ample rooms to counterplay."
: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
I am a Talon main(and pretty much only play him) since S2 who used to have an above 70% rank win rate at rank with him from gold to diamond (in TW server), and have an around-65% overall winrate in NA with Talon; I think I know the former Talon quite well, and here I will be giving some initial thoughts: Anything at all about the new E. Is it fun? Difficult to use? Does it suit Talon? Bugs? The new E is certainly very interesting, but a little bit unpredictable since there are just too many terrains in the game. I think it will be quite nice to have an E landing indicator when his E is being normal-casted. I think his E is full of potential, and adds so many variables and potential to his kit, increasing his learning cap. The new E feels nothing like the previous Talon, but this ability does suit his character of a badass assassin, and I think it's a pretty good rework. With his new but different set of mobility tools, do you feel able to get on your desired target? Since he lost his original E, his Q now serves as his primary in-battle mobility source, While this translates to a 2.1 second dash (at 45% CDR), I feel like it is somewhat harder to get to his primary target in an open-battle field (where there is less terrain), but it will be easier to use during a jungle fight with the combination of E. I will have to test this out more. When in the game do you feel powerful / weak (early / mid / late) and in which circumstances (enemy has all/no squishies, I was able to roam / I was pushed in, etc.)? For early game: For early game, I feel like Talon is stronger when facing a melee champion, but weaker in facing a ranged champion, which is a little bit counter-intuitive, because we usually pick Talon to kill the squishier ranged targets. For mid game: Mid-game feels similar; have to play more game. For late game: This, I think, will be a time that really differentiates a great Talon from a good one. With large-scale teamfight breaking out, Talon has to be more careful with the decisions he makes, as his mobility tool is not that reliable in battle. - Concerns and Recommendations Overall, like many others, I was quite worried before the rework, but now I think Riot did a really good job on installing a unique identity on him! However, I do want to address one concern: -Matchups with Ranged champions that have CC (i.e vs most of the mages) will be somewhat harder, because of his delayed W and his loss of a blink. Since his new E won't be very useful in laning phase, he relies on his Q to approach his target. However, if he uses his Q to approach, he loses the portion of damage which I think is quite essential for an effective trade. The same goes with ganking;since he loses some damage in his R, and since his W is already delayed, meaning the chance of enemy dodging it has increased quite a bit, I just think a short range dashing mobility tool on a 4-8 second cooldown makes Talon too easy to be counterplayed; this is even more true during a large-scale late game team fight. I really really hope that Talon's Q can be adjusted to become a short-range blink Q (like Ekko's E2), as this will help quite a lot in his laning phase and ganking, and teamfighting, while still making his opponent having ample rooms to counterplay. This is it for now! I will update as I test out more games! (And forgive my poor grammar :P) Cheers!
Rioter Comments
: Anivia Main Feedback
Hi, a plat semi-Anivia main here. I Agree with all of your points! intentional or not. I am interested in knowing how you would build the new Anivia, as the new hextech item may now be one of a strong-have that goes well with her E + R, and with Morellonomicon and unholy grail becoming more of a support build now.
Rioter Comments
: Teambuilder: IP-Bonus For Queuing as Highest Demanded Role
: Kassadin Voidwalks in!
Played Kassadin in other server for a long time; I would say that the range is quite essential and the range nerf feels a bit.... weird, becasue we are always proud of him having a gap closer that's longer than flash How about keep the range but make him transfer slower or make his transfer interruptable btw loved the VU, although the blade looks somewhat 2D, and somehow the model is a bit inconsistent as the spalsh; the splash is more purple-ish, wile the model obviously resembles more like the Chinese Splash art. I really like how W feels more responsive (with its exagerrated action i think) for the people who only saw him in model preview, it feels much better when you are in the game.
: Reorder Rune & Mastery pages
CANT AGREE MORE especially for someone OCD-ish like me, this will really really help. I also think it will be nice to have a total mastery/ rune reset bottom so if you are reorganizing your rune or mastery you can just press a button

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