Rioter Comments
: Quinn specifically is definitely one of the ones we want to experiment with more if the mode comes back. That said, we were fairly reluctant to include her at launch: Marksmen in general (Even one as aggressive/ non-traditional as Quinn) had a lot of baggage around the edges in the mode. Beyond that, we had some fairly consistently poor "Playing as" experiences: Her survivability tools are not really tuned for picking on most of the champions in this mode, and a lot of the laning phase/ team fight structure that she takes advantage of just flat out doesn't exist. There were also some "side-power" concerns: We're doing a lot of stuff to increase your ability to traverse the map, so Quinn being as good as she is at that meant she was less "She could be anywhere" and more "She is capable of reaching any location, so never be willing to risk roaming". In general, when selecting the entire pool, our main goal was hitting a group that serviced as many playstyles as possible, while still hitting the spread out, constant skirmish play of the mode. The champions we left out generally resulted in play that we were trying to avoid for this mode in particular, whether it be constant clumping, fights degenerating into "everyone is standing in this tiny circle", or their kit serving a role that just doesn't exist in this particular type of play.
Facing other assassins as Quinn really isn't something most of us who play her try to avoid though, she definitely has tools in her kit to deal with a of of what they can throw at her, E alone can interrupt Katarina R, Pantheon W, Camille E, or just be used to create enough distance between her and her opponent to get the edge. Her high burst potential definitely allows her to still be threatening in this game mode, so a lot of the time as long as she plans an engage properly she shouldn't run into issues. Seems a bit odd for her not to be included while Kennen is.
Rioter Comments
: Can we lower Sona's Q range in exchange for more damage on it?
I'd prefer if they finally made it a skill shot, ideal situation it would be a pass through skill shot like throwing one of TF's wildcards, maybe hold 2 charges to make up for only having a single beam, have it deal 50% bonus damage to minions and reduced damage to champions if it passes through other units first.
: Allow Leona to gain Incandesence stacks from jungle monsters.
Do you mean something like how Diana's passive works? Like every 3 autos procs her passive damage on jungle creeps?
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes. Feedback wanted
The E change is nice(not anything too amazing) but the smaller auras and longer cooldown on Q doesn't feel good at all, and it's a major hit to the early game wave management for mid lane Sona, I know she's not really balanced for roles out side of support, but people do occasionally play her mid. I prefer live Sona to this
: There is a more in-depth analysis on at least the NA boards, but it comes down to a few things: - Q does less damage until Syndra has 3500 AP (not a typo, over 3 thousand AP) - Having the 7 sphere ult so easily and frequently available means Syndra's highest point is now overly accessible; skilled players won't have much extra strength compared to first timers. Because of this accessibility it will also then need to be nerfed. - Syndra's ability to manipulate and take advantage of the spheres was never a problem for skilled players, and was definitely not the thing they wanted more help with at the expense of other parts of her kit. The specific complaint that Syndra players want addressed: - Syndra's damage is too reliant on her ultimate and her use of other abilities is TOO tied to being used to generate the maximum ult power in order to instantly one-shot a target. This leaves her incredibly vulnerable to anybody she can't one-shot due to tankiness, range, or denial abilities (zhonya's, wind wall, any champion that has untargetability). This play style is absurdly binary and either the target can't do a single thing to stop it, or Syndra can't do a single thing to land it. The rework only makes this worse because the "7 spheres out, I can one-shot someone" time is much easier to reach and can be sustained for longer, at the expense of removing the strength of alternate ability usage.
Ok, I can definitely support this, Syndra has some pretty nice sustained damage aside from her ult currently, would be a shame for her to be pushed more towards ult reliance
: For Syndra, our dear Dark Sovereign. Please Riot, read this.
If any of your posts go more in depth on the changes and the concerns you have on how they would affect her balance would you mind posting links to them? Haven't heard a whole lot on the actual changes themselves or gotten to check them out on the PBE yet but I was expecting Syndra to be stronger next patch than she has been in quite a while as long as no drastic balance changes happened to her directly.
Rioter Comments
: well thats true its a totally new quinn, i cant deny that. But riot said they wanted her ultimate r to thematically satisfy her identity and also to reduce the confusion it cost to the players (this is not exactly how riot said but thats what is it sounds to me when riot mentioned the reason behind this change). Anyway im always in for thematic presentation before gameplay cause lol's champion themes are really fun. Although i disliked the old quinn's r in terms of thematic presentation of a tag team duo (expecting more dota lvl of tag team) i got used to her gameplay. It was definitely fun to play her but i always found her value in team comp a bit messy, not that i can come up with great team comp with all champs. And speaking of riot changing the gameplay identity of champion drastically, remember this isnt the 1st time they did this, so im already used to it and just kinda flows along with those changes.
Balancing champions around a thematic representation really shouldn't take priority over game play, I'm aware that Riot has changed a champions play style pretty drastically in the past, but in this particular case it seems to be more of a step back, rather than forwards, the new R changing to a non combat spell leaves Quinn with 2 offensive abilities, and the spells themselves are having losing utility due to the removal of the 2 forms, Q just being used to proc Harrier can help to make up for Quinn not having an on demand steroid, but she still either needs to land a skill shot or burn her escape in order to proc it, reworks that reduce the complexity of a champions kit tend to increase the reliance on raw stats to balance them rather than outplay potential, so you end up with a ball of stats, an extreme example of this would be Skarner, throughout most metas and across several reworks he has never been a mid tier pick, he either has something he can exploit in the game that makes him OP or he ends up falling short compared to other champions. Warwick is another example, he is so heavily centered around his ult and it uses up so much of his power budget that his effectiveness in game drops to nearly nothing just by having it on cool down, so if you can negate it with a QSS or cancel it by buffering an ability to go off as he casts it then you negate the champion.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
What's with the radio silence RiotRepertoir? You've got a lot of people here concerned about the rework who could at the very least use some reassurance that the points they bring up are being considered rather than ignored.
: Yeah, as usual they aren't repealing anything, one less champion for me to buy skins for I guess, wish I could still refund the ones I have. This forum is 6 times more active than any other rework forum and they just don't care what we think. 785 posts, roughly 760 of which are completely or mostly against the changes, honestly I keep feeling like we aren't listened to at all and I'm getting tired of it. I'm not sure why they even ask for feedback, maybe it's some sort of sick joke.
They definitely could do a better job at transparency, it doesn't seem like any Rioters are even still responding to this thread, which seems to defeat the purpose of having a feedback thread in the first place, I'm sure I've typed enough to fill a medium sized novel into the boards on champion balance alone and the only thread I've posted that ever got a Rioter response was one asking the community if they've ever gotten a Pentakill and to share the story on it, I suppose I can understand them not wanting to respond, but when they do that it alienates people in the league community and makes them look pretty bad, even if we just had the council back on here answering questions and addressing concerns I think it would be helpful. I know Riot has stated that they don't want to hire a player relations team because they prefer to let the people working on the game talk directly to the player base, but a lot of the time that doesn't happen and it leaves a sour taste for a lot of players who feel that the points they bring up are being ignored, or that Riot just doesn't care. I think they really should reconsider the approach, having a group on staff to address the player base full time doesn't prevent the Devs or anyone else at Riot from doing so as well, but it does give somewhere for players to turn when the Devs are silent, as they often are during busy times like this.
: I'm agreeing with you but not with riot essentially. Sorry I didn't word that well. I mean that Riot is currently making her win lose case very extreme. Either she wins and wins hard or loses and loses hard. No comebacks, no maybes. What they need is something with more balance where they are still useful come late. Such as Nidalee's Rework.
Ok yeah I see what you mean, that's part of the issue, they are removing a lot of the complexity from her kit, with simpler kits you usually end up with win conditions that boil down to who has the better numbers, a lot of the other reworks look pretty interesting, but it seems like this one was just kind of thrown together to get one more champion in for this batch of reworks, I really hope that doesn't become a trend to rework champions in bundles, it just ups the chances that one of them is going to get shafted due to less care being devoted to it.
: It's worse than that, she has a virtually non-damaging ult that provides WAY less team utility than Sivir, which means her kit has to either be over powered so she can do something when she arrives, or she's going to be trying to compete with other ADCs that have "real" ultimates with nothing but her base abilities. Either way it sucks. If she's OP and boring, she might get played more until the nerfs come in, but there's nothing exciting about her play style. Also keep in mind that she actually only has 2 offensive abilities in her kit now, so you R to get to a fight, show up, hope for a passive proc on a decent target, AA - E - AA - Q - AA and... you're done... if you're ahead you win, if you're behind you lose, GG. Full guide to playing new Quinn complete, thanks for reading.
Exactly, if a kit is too binary the only options for balancing it are number changes, so you end up with the ball of stats problem, either their numbers are objectively better and they just win or the numbers are worse and they don't get used, it's not interesting game play.
: It's called Emergent Gameplay, they made a champ and the players found the best or most fun way to play it. Most of the Time Riot has tried to balance to player wants. Such as AP Trist and AP Ez as well as AP MF. This time however they are throwing that out the door and just trying to force a type of gameplay and style on an already established group and style. Exactly like your Nidalee Example, she needs to be a more balanced version of herself not a different version. They're reworking NOT recreating and making it more extreme is not good balance. I do like the changes you suggest except I would do the opposite for the Q. I would make the blind on Ranged Quinn to keep her defensive and skill option and on Valor make it Execute or just move it elsewhere. The Blind on Human Quinn was what made Quinn have lots of decisions and plays not on Valor. The rest of them seem pretty cool.
I'm not sure what you mean about making her a more extreme version of what she is, I'm saying that the changes should accentuate a champions identity, not change it entirely, witness protection program style. The reason I suggested the melee Q to be left as the blind is because being in melee range generally does require more risk, so having the defensive spell could be more valuable in a lot of cases, also if Quinn is using the out of combat speed and E to get on top of people she would generally end a combo in ranged form. I think the style of game play they are suggesting would probably work better for Teemo to be honest, he fits the guerrilla warfare idea, his W could be the skill changed to the map rotation skill, so he gets a lot more move speed until entering combat, the mushrooms could create a barrier to keep him safe while pushing, just allow toxic shot to AOE if you use it to kill a minion for wave clear.
: her new r is now totally unique, before this her r was just another weaker version of nidalee, elise thing even though she became a melee adc. But she's now the 1st roaming adc, tell me any other roaming adc like her now. And her new q deals bonus damage based on missing health. But I did loved her old q's blind and am missing it, especially since her valor skills are no longer there bringing down her total casting abilities to just 4 (q,w,e,r). But with the added bonus to that new q bringing back blind to it will be too much.
Quinn was already unique, and had great roaming potential already, these changes trade quite a bit of effectiveness for up time, Global ultimates(or in general ultimates with high potential to affect large portions of the map) also take up a lot of a champions power budget, and with nearly 100% up time, that doesn't bode well for the rest of Quinn's abilities in terms of power, Twisted Fate is balanced this way, because if his basic abilities allowed him to consistently dominate lane on top of his roaming ability then he would outclass every other mid laner. I'm not against adding an ADC to the game with this kind of map rotation ability, I think it could definitely work, but it doesn't make sense for Quinn to be that ADC, since it's such a drastic departure from what her play style has been ever since release.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raith Alghul,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=PE1LJTOM,comment-id=003a0005,timestamp=2015-10-28T23:39:42.972+0000) > > I really hope they take player feedback into consideration on this one, I don't think Quinn needs changes, and these ones don't make any sense to me, they pretty much change Quinns play style completely, and definitely for the worse quinn needs changes but not these disgusting changes they've implemented on the pbe. what happened to keeping quinn and valors identities huh? looks to me like once again you F***** up another rework stripping the character of who they're supposed to be its quinn AND valor. not "Quinn", trash this rework and try again.
Riot Repertoire seems like a reasonable person in a lot of the responses I've seen, so I think there is a good chance they repeal the changes, most other Quinn players I've spoken with have been disappointed by the changes.
: And it seems you were right to worry. This is by far the most active marksman rework board, and we still seem likely to be completely ignored, RIP Valor.
I hope we aren't ignored, Quinn is one of my favorite champions, and usually the only ADC I'll play as I don't like the others that much, seeing her play style changed to more of the cookie cutter marksman design to make room for some random map rotation ult is making me really sad.
: My question is, what determines whether it's a good change or not? Who's to say that people just want an overpowered adc to carry with? As well, was Quinn ever even meant to be a dualist?
Whether she was meant to be a duelist or not isn't really the point, she ended up as one and it's a major part of what determines her play style. As for what determines if a change is good or not, I look at whether it adds complexity to a champions kit, helps better define the play style they are known for, or adds options to a champion in order to give them the options to properly respond to more situations. A good example would be the Nidalee rework, Javelin toss and the dual forms were defining characteristics of the champion, and the ability to poke from far away and siege was core to her identity, rather than remove that and change the champion play style drastically, the new Nidalee is a more dynamic champion with the ability to poke and siege or all in and assassinate based on the situation, and the hunt passive creates great synergy between the abilities in both forms. The Quinn rework in contrast, removes her assassin play style, due to the new ult not having nearly the same sticking power as the live version, and moving the execute to a normal ability essentially removing part of her assassination rotation before the execute proc, the loss of her blind affects her survivability, which is important given her lower attack range. The changes also do not synergize with the elements already existing in her kit, E for example doesn't make sense on a higher ranged champion, with the way ADC are balanced lower ranged champions tend to be more effective at closer range, so in a 1v1 a Caitlyn will win if the enemy can't close the gap to make up for the range difference, but will generally lose if they are able to get into their own auto attack range, so abilities like Quinn/Lucian/Graves E allow them to bridge that distance, while in the case of Quinn's E it also has the benefit of placing you at the optimal range vs bruisers automatically. If a low range ADC loses their burst they can no longer compete with longer range ADC as even at optimal range the damage dealt is closer to equal, so the removal of Harriers base damage, the lack of damage reduction from blind, and the reduction of Quinn's full rotation from 3 abilities to 2, all do more to reduce the overall effectiveness of the champion, with less complex kits you now run into the issue where the only way to really make them viable is to throw stats at them, until you end up with old Mordekaiser, a walking ball of stats who basically needs to be prone to kiting, the issue with doing this for Quinn is she has one of the best kiting tools in the game, so balancing based on stats means she will almost always end up on an extreme end of the spectrum, similar to Skarner. I do have suggestions for things that could make for a more effective rework, for example changing Quinn to a dual form character similar to Elise or Nidalee and separating her cooldowns in each form, removing skystrike and adding the execute to her human form Q, but keeping the blind as Valor could potentially be workable, as well as adding additional defensive stats as Valor. Reducing the in combat move speed to the base move speed and having the out of combat move speed build up gradually over time could help keep the map rotations a bit more in check. This would allow Quinn's power to be based less around her ult cool down, while maintaining her current duelist/assassin play style without causing her rotating power to get too out of hand due to the need to build up out of combat move speed. To further support her current play style a reset could be added to E on kill or assist, to give some leeway when jumping in on a target during team fights, as once you kill them you would have the ability to start kiting enemies that turned to focus you.
: She still has an execute. When doing a combo you should wait for her passive to mark an enemy champion. Then AA>E>AA>Q>AA And that can get you a really easy level 2 kill. And if harrier marks a minion you can still almost kill with just the combo without the automatic marking. Also her ult may seem to be lack luster, but if you play Quinn mid and focus on helping other lanes she can do a lot more. Her ult makes roaming easy and strong. Combo for roams should be R>(When you find an enemy)E>AA>Q>AA Typically it can kill if you have ignite up, or follow them with your insane w passives. But I do like your idea of a reset on her e... It sounds interesting. Quinn wasn't necessarily a duelist previously, she was an assassin without counter-play. This is balanced but could use some tweaks to make her passive more reliable.
She's losing a blind for an execute when she already had one previously, which was probably better, also the melee form ult was interesting, it was part of the appeal of the champion, her roams may be less frequent on live(though they don't really need to be, she can roam without ult up) but they tend to be more effective with the bonus attack speed from ult and the gap close on E. Whether or not these changes are good isn't really the focus, it's whether or not these make sense for Quinn, which really they don't, if they gave Zed this same ultimate in exchange for his current one, buffed his Q damage a bit and gave him ranged auto attacks people would likely be as confused about what exactly Riot is doing as many Quinn players are at the moment. If you're going to drastically depart from the play style of a champion why not just leave them as is and release a new champion? > Quinn wasn't necessarily a duelist previously, She is one of the best duelists in the game, late game there isn't really a champion you can't 1v1 if you play it right.
: I agree. A few more QOL buffs would have done justice as well
I think it would have been cool to be able to change the angle you vaulted off, so you could land anywhere within an arc around the target. Not sure how it would be in game though.
: So far I, among many other quinn mains are very upset about these terrible changes. (yes I've tested Quinn out) Majority of the Quinn player base is currently outraged by these changes. So I really can't see how someone could "never get a good read on" these changes, and what the player base wants.
I'm just hoping this isn't the Sona rework all over again where they just ignore everyone and put through the changes anyway. I've tested her out on the PBE too and is just feels like so much is now missing, her level 6 all in used to be godly, and going from arguably the strongest late game duelist in the game to some awkward roaming ADC is just saddening.
: All she needed were bug fixes and defensive stats on her ult...literally it. I'm not sure why they took away her core aspects for slightly more damage and movement speed that is easily interrupted. I love Quinn, and this is a smack in the face.
Defensive stats on her ult weren't even the only solution, a reset on her E would have brought her into the Meta on its own too
: By the way you talked yesterday I think it is pretty clear you didn't come into this with anything approaching an open mind.
You would almost think stating a plan to remove a large number of the aspects I enjoy about one of my favorite champions had induced a bit of a cynical attitude. Imagine that.
: > It doesn't seem like anyone feels these changes are promising. I love the new Quinn. I didn't think I would, but I certainly enjoy playing her. There are some big problems with her, but I am someone who does find these changes promising. So you shouldn't say we don't exist. Edit: "No one likes these changes. Oh, you do? Better downvote that, because it goes against the circlejerk that she is horrible now."
I enjoy player her as she is on live, I just got out of a game with her on the PBE and she feels way to linear, it's like I'm playing with half a champion now.
: Nope. If you basic attack from Tag Team, it will fire the basic attack, fire a Skystrike, and cancel Tag Team.
Why remove this part of her kit? It was a really interesting and unique part of the game, I could understand changing tag team to something more like what Nidalee or Elise have and having the Q in human form as the execute while the bird form one retains the blind in exchange for separate cooldowns, but losing the melee form entirely feels like so much is being just removed. It sounds like the game play equivalent of having a broken arm to be honest.
: Mid lane quinn is something I've really enjoyed. I love leaving lane and ulting to botlane super fast, blinding the ADC and executing them. It can be hard to pull off and it requires some team coordination and vision control, but it was always so satisfying. Right now these changes are making me very sad. :( That said, I still haven't played updated quinn yet. I'll be sure to give it a go on the PBE this week. EDIT: Since I had a chance to play Quinn now, I thought I'd come back to update some of my posts. I was originally worried about the assassination potential, but I think it is still pretty strong. I do still dislike the ult, though. Not being able to play as valor is a huge issue for me. That being said, the new ult feels absolutely OP if you use it right. The map pressure and roaming is insane. But yeah... still miss *real* valor... So I think that more people will like Quinn, but most of her original playerbase will be very irked by the R changes.
It doesn't seem like anyone feels these changes are promising, I've played quite a bit of mid lane Quinn as well, I've dominated games with it and the high risk for high reward roams are one of the best parts. I would much rather have the high cool down ult as it is than these changes, I think I'd still rather play current Quinn than the new one even if her ult cool down was 8 minutes.
: She does get en execute on her Q if I understand correctly. And her passive is now from total AD, meaning her base AD will be the decider of the passive base damage, it is not simply removed (I think this is more of a clarity change, since she will now have 1 number instead of 2 but the resulting damage should be very similar to before). The biggest difference from before seems to be the removal of the blind and no CD on the ult, exchanging dueling power for map presence.
Removing base damage in favor of making it total scaling is something that directs a champion towards a linear power curve, currently, Quinn has a good early game, dips a bit in the mid game and gets strong again in the late game. If her passive scales off of total AD with no base component the linear scaling means that if it is good early, it will be great mid, and broken late, or more likely, bad early, ok mid and good late, pushing her into the same category as most ADC, weak early game, to try to scale towards a good late game. I started playing Quinn because she broke this mold, even if you got out scaled because of your short range you could still duel people at most points in the game as she had more of a parabolic power curve that most ADC lacked. The execute being moved to a basic ability will naturally come with a reduction in strength, for the same reason that resonating strike doesn't deal the same damage as a super mega death rocket, uptime needs to be balanced against effectiveness, and the same issue plagues her ult, the lack of a cooldown seems to come at a pretty severe cost to the overall effectiveness of not just the ability but of her kit as a whole. The execute on Q is also in exchange for her blind, which is not something I want to see disappear from her kit as it is one of the things that helps define the champions identity as a strong duelist.
: how are any of the adc changed homogenizes them? These changes are like HOLY CRAP we've never seen any adcs like this.
Quinn is already different from other ADC, in fact I don't actually consider her an ADC, she is much more of a fighter/assassin, the only thing that makes her seem like an ADC is ranged auto attacks, she's about as close to a standard ADC as Kennen.
: I don't see how the new change is homogenizing the ADCs. Which other ADC has a mapwise movement ability at ZERO cd? With the new change, she will be able to roam, rotate and gank other lanes much more frequently. This is unique among all other ADCs. The change seems to nerf the dueling potential of quinn but without seeing the numbers, it is really hard to say how much this is nerfed. But this is the cost of significantly buffing the other feature of quinn, namely her global presence with her ult.
How many other ADC's turn into a giant bird and duel people in melee range? Quinn has 525 range, making her team fighting risky, other ADC that are in the same situaton usually have high burst and dueling potential, like lucian and graves, or in the case of Sivir, a damage/CC mitigation ability similar to a melee ADC, these changes suggest removing her melee form and on demand steroid, her blind(her damage mitigation), and her execute ult. So with the reduction in her dueling power is her range increasing to make her better in team fights? If it is then who exactly am I playing at that point, because it really doesn't seem like Quinn.
: Yeah this is COMPLETELY different from what she used to be. She used to be fun because their ADC couldn't 1v1 you and her splitpush was really good. Now she still looks like her splitpush is good, but she lost 1v1 potential. If they made it so that she could quickly E>aaproc>Q>aaproc she could still have good burst. But it seems like she lost a bunch of power for a MS buff that removes her ability to AA or use spells...
You can't even check the map with W now to see what you're flying into
: So Q was changed from a kit-defining skill with an interesting mechanic (blind) to one of the most generic skillshots in the game? Without major compensation elsewhere? Ut oh. Poor Quinn.
: >I'm not talking about her numbers, >with the change from base damage with partial scaling to scaling entirely off of Quinns AD you are likely to do about the same damage with a double proc now as with 3 >more autos for comparable damage >Having the execute on a basic ability will require it to be weaker due to power budgeting Very clearly making assumptions based on numbers we don't have. But sure, downvote me for pointing out what you are doing. >the zero cool down part doesn't really interest me because the ability to roam more effectively is far better than the ability to roam more often He says, without trying out the new kit at all. I think you greatly underestimate the power of map pressure. I don't like the change but I very much see the strength of it. >The part that makes this ultimate weak is that unlike TF or Shen ult, this can be cancelled with auto attacks If you have decent map awareness you should be able to get anywhere you want without having it be cancelled. >is a speed boost From what they are saying it is a pretty incredible speed boost. I don't think it is fair for you to dismiss how useful it is without seeing anything. >and does not offer any additional utility, making the suggested ult far weaker. Map pressure on a zero cooldown ability is utility. And not having a lot of additional power opens them up to make the rest of her kit stronger. I actually think they should remove Skystrike just to add additional power to somewhere else on her kit, which would make her ultimate even weaker.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Fluffy,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=80evtUUR,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T11:53:10.069+0000) > > Very clearly making assumptions based on numbers we don't have. But sure, downvote me for pointing out what you are doing. The range of her numbers can be assumed to some extent based on the overall power budget that is used for each champion in the game, aside from that though, this is a drastic shift away from Quinns current play style, which is already quite unique, no other ADC change into a melee fighter with greater dueling power. Also, not my down vote. > > He says, without trying out the new kit at all. I think you greatly underestimate the power of map pressure. I don't like the change but I very much see the strength of it. > I'm not underestimating the power of map pressure, I'm quite familiar with roaming as any laner, but the removal of the execute component seems to take quite a bit of the sting out of her roams, you could roam all game as a Soraka, but you should still get more favorable returns from roaming less as Blitzcrank. Currently Quinn can roam to a fight in the bot lane quite quickly, gap close even faster with E, and clean up kills quite reliable with the execute portion of sky strike. The amount of things being removed from her ult are not made up for by an increase in speed. > If you have decent map awareness you should be able to get anywhere you want without having it be cancelled. Except away from a bad fight, quite often if I'm fighting an enemy and the jungler shows up I can use the ult to escape at a moments notice, in a recent game I escaped a warwick gank by using it to skirt around his ult cast range despite still having minion aggro, loop back around after he had left and finish off the low health enemy laner with an E+R. A 2 second channel time, being cancelled by taking damage and the lack of an execute would not have allowed me to do any of this, and that's a problem for me and I would immagine quite a few other Quinn players as well, if I wanted higher map pressure at the expense of kill pressure in lane I'd be playing Twisted Fate instead of Quinn, but since I'm looking for an ADC like champion with strong all ins who can 1v1 pretty much anyone late game, I play Quinn instead, I don't want Quinn to be the AD version of Twisted fate any more than I want Arhi to be changed into the AP version of Caitlyn. > > From what they are saying it is a pretty incredible speed boost. I don't think it is fair for you to dismiss how useful it is without seeing anything. I'm going to say this again, but more clearly this time, even if she can fly circles around Sion while he is ulting, the extra map movement if not going to mean dick if it's at the expense of her ability to actually do something once she gets to the other lanes, and as for the 0 cd part, I don't expect that to stay in the game for more than 2 patches at the most if it goes live. > > Map pressure on a zero cooldown ability is utility. And not having a lot of additional power opens them up to make the rest of her kit stronger. I actually think they should remove Skystrike just to add additional power to somewhere else on her kit, which would make her ultimate even weaker.
: You seem to be making a lot of assumptions that we have no basis for on her actual numbers. Your argument at many points devolves into "she'll be weaker because *insert speculation." I'm not gonna bother arguing with you on numbers, because she is set to hit the PBE within 24 hours. So what is the point in speculating on her numbers. >She has one of the best level 6 power spikes in the game, but this would make it one of the worst, that is such a drastic change. Holy shit, I don't like her ult change but you seriously can't argue that the map pressure she gains on an ability with literally no cooldown is one of the worst power spikes in the game, can you? It isn't a damage powerspike, but it certainly is a huge map pressure powerspike. Quinn could already roam rather quickly at 6, and now she roams so much faster. I'm not entirely certain on the difference between the bonus movement speed her current ult gives and the _total movement speed_ her new ult will give. But at worst it 10% less movement speed at level 6 and scales to be much more later. But it has no cooldown, so any time you aren't in lane the other lanes have to be scared. Next you'll be telling me TF level 6 isn't incredibly strong because he doesn't get to deal damage with it.
I'm not talking about her numbers, she can come out stronger and remain un-nerfed but that doesn't change the fact that it's such a drastic departure from the champion that I currently enjoy playing. As for the statement about her ult, she already gains great roaming potential with it, the zero cool down part doesn't really interest me because the ability to roam more effectively is far better than the ability to roam more often. TF is one of the few champions currently that can match Quinns roaming, and compared to Quinns current ult, TF's is weaker, it's a soft level because it offers no boost in combat stats only strategic benefit because of the ability to pick 1 sided fights. Quinn can already do this, but also has the ability with her ult to all in her lane opponent with the same ability. The part that makes this ultimate weak is that unlike TF or Shen ult, this can be cancelled with auto attacks, is a speed boost, not a teleport, and does not offer any additional utility, making the suggested ult far weaker.
: >You can already proc the passive 3 times in quick succession, you wait until a few seconds before it runs out Having to wait ~4 seconds is not, by any definition, quick. But I wasn't entirely clear on what I meant. I more meant you could land 3 as soon as 1 shows up on them, since most people move away when Valor marks them. Especially now that you can land more passive procs easier. And if her current mechanics carry over then wouldn't you just be able to do the same thing you described but with 4 procs? Elsewhere you replied to me and I don't feel like doing two comments to you so I'll condense them. >The changes would reduce her ults base damage, They are going to move damage around on her kit so that any base damage reduction doesn't matter in the long run. >remove the execute component And moved it to her Q, which has higher base and ratio damage than ult(barring any significant changes). Plus now you don't have to make the decision to stay in melee(which is dangerous for how squishy you are) just to wait on the execute getting strong enough to finish someone off. >keep her from gap closing with it active, The absolutely insane amount of movement speed you get with it should get you close enough. >all of this hurts her assassination potential quite a bit. It more hurts her dueling as Valor because you don't get the double W attack speed, but her assassination should still be strong. Open with Skystrike, passive proc, e, passive proc, execute Q, passive proc. That is going to be quite a lot of damage, especially since her passive is going to scale better into the late game. And the cooldown for her passive starts out lower than it currently is and gets reduced from there by Crit Strike. So you should be able to proc passive much more often in the late game. I do doubt they are keeping the mechanic of CDR on passive from proccing passive though.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Fluffy,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=80evtUUR,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T02:07:03.841+0000) > > Having to wait ~4 seconds is not, by any definition, quick. But I wasn't entirely clear on what I meant. I more meant you could land 3 as soon as 1 shows up on them, since most people move away when Valor marks them. Especially now that you can land more passive procs easier. with the change from base damage with partial scaling to scaling entirely off of Quinns AD you are likely to do about the same damage with a double proc now as with 3 with the changes at least in the laning phase, having her scale better damage wise into the late game doesn't really make sense because her short range is better suited to smaller skirmishes and her late game is already very good > > And if her current mechanics carry over then wouldn't you just be able to do the same thing you described but with 4 procs? > same issue, more autos for comparable damage, longer trades aren't good for short range AD champions. > Elsewhere you replied to me and I don't feel like doing two comments to you so I'll condense them. > > They are going to move damage around on her kit so that any base damage reduction doesn't matter in the long run. > > And moved it to her Q, which has higher base and ratio damage than ult(barring any significant changes). Plus now you don't have to make the decision to stay in melee(which is dangerous for how squishy you are) just to wait on the execute getting strong enough to finish someone off. > > The absolutely insane amount of movement speed you get with it should get you close enough. > The ult is interrupted by an auto attack, and getting close now has no point as the assassination potential isn't there on the ult anyway. Having the execute on a basic ability will require it to be weaker due to power budgeting, so trading the blind for this isn't exactly exciting. > It more hurts her dueling as Valor because you don't get the double W attack speed, but her assassination should still be strong. Open with Skystrike, passive proc, e, passive proc, execute Q, passive proc. That is going to be quite a lot of damage, especially since her passive is going to scale better into the late game. And the cooldown for her passive starts out lower than it currently is and gets reduced from there by Crit Strike. So you should be able to proc passive much more often in the late game. > > I do doubt they are keeping the mechanic of CDR on passive from proccing passive though. Quinn already does quite a bit of damage, the issue isn't so much about the strict amount of damage it's about how her kit and playstyle is being changed so drastically, like if they want to try again at making an ADC with high map pressure why not leave Quinn alone and release a new champ, I want my weird fighter/assassin that goes into melee form and chases people down as a giant bird, not a boring ADC that uses a bird as a hang glider. She has one of the best level 6 power spikes in the game, but this would make it one of the worst, that is such a drastic change. They had the right idea when they did the Nidalee rework, preserve the core parts of the champion while adding new interactions to them so that the feel more rewarding to play, not more linear, like why not bonus damage if you E a blinded opponent or some interaction between remaining marks of Harrier when you swap to Valor. Why not have E reset on kill to allow her to remain mobile after a kill?
: I think Riot said they think her assassination potential is still going to be there, if not better than before. You should have pretty high burst damage if you proc your passive 3 times, especially later in the game when you get more AD.
The changes would reduce her ults base damage, remove the execute component and keep her from gap closing with it active, all of this hurts her assassination potential quite a bit.
: Right now Quinn is a generally underpowered niche pick that if buffed would become suffocating as she is potentially the strongest duelist in the game. Much like old Fiora, she's going to be a lot of fun to main in solo queue since her 1v1 is so strong, but her kit will never really let her break out of niche solo queue play. I understand that you are enjoying what you are doing right now, but (again similar to Fiora) breaking her old playstyle completely and finding something new is the only way forward for her. My only real concern is that they haven't gone far enough.
Quinn might be Niche but she's not under powered, if anything her early passive damage could stand a bit of a reduction, and the only thing keeping her from being a perfectly viable assassin is the lack of escape after a kill, which could be remedied by adding a reset to E.
: They have already stated that Quinn is most likely going to be better in mid lane than in top or bottom. They are already pushing her as a solo laner, so you needn't worry about that. The only real difference right now seems to be that she will lose her assassination potential (which is fine, honestly.)
Why is losing her ability to assassinate "fine"? It's one of my favorite things about playing Quinn, it gives her some presence in lane even vs other assassins, if you can just ignore her for the most part because she can't secure a kill on you mid lane why would people pick her over other solo laners? Especially if she can no longer pick people late game.
: >These changes reduce her threat in lane by quite a bit That isn't necessarily true. You can now proc your passive 3 times in relatively quick succession. And the passive is supposed to be getting better at targeting(selection and speed of target acquisition). I'm not a huge fan of the changes as they've been listed, but I don't think she is significantly weaker in lane than she was before this. Not having the blind sucks, but 3 quick passive procs is going to hurt anyone.
You can already proc the passive 3 times in quick succession, you wait until a few seconds before it runs out, E to reapply it, then after that the passive re-applies again to the same target because you recently auto attacked them. The blind is also pretty huge in duels, losing that shouldn't be understated. Her execute is a huge threat during the laning phase, it catches people off guard all the time, it has as high of a cool down as it does because it's that good as an ability.
: I think her top lane isn't going to suffer too much. Blind wasn't the be all and end all to top lane quinn. With her ultimate change to 0 cd she could TP gank, or not take TP at all and still outroam 90% of opposing toplaners. What your current build is really doesn't matter, her build changes and the overall itemisation changes are going to throw everything into the air anyway.
The build isn't really the focus here, it was her ability to duel pretty much anyone if played right, and to assassinate high priority targets. These changes reduce her threat in lane by quite a bit, and her roaming was already great, probably better with the execute since once you got to the side lane you could put more pressure on the enemy, the ability to roam more often doesn't really balance this out.
Rioter Comments
: One thing I would love to see on Quinn (if you haven't tried to fix it yet) is when you E'd a target and then valor marks in the middle of ur E animation, therefore wasting a passive proc. If when this happens the E would proc the mark then reapply it, sort of like lux's ult
Having E able to proc your passive would be pretty cool, but maybe a little OP
: > [{quoted}](name=CSDragon31,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=PE1LJTOM,comment-id=003a,timestamp=2015-10-28T21:08:12.162+0000) > > This is the most important question: > > **If we don't like this. And we find it weak. Are you willing to say "we messed up" and find a different avenue of fixing her.** Or will you do the typical riot thing of "we like this change so even if you don't , get used to it" > > Because I know I haven't actually played her yet, meaning my complaints are not backed up. They're less than valid. But I know what I like about Quinn, I know what makes her strong, I know what makes her weak, and know what makes her fun, and this isn't it. > > And my greatest fear is that my thoughts and feelings will fall on deaf ears like every other mistake riot has made. > > And hopefully this isn't a mistake, maybe there is some good in this. I won't know till I actually play her. BUT IF IT IS. CAN YOU ADMIT **IF** THIS IS A MISTAKE. I think removing her blind and the ability to fight while being Valor is an error, let's hope they hear us.
It's definitely a mistake, I'm really worried that they will just ignore feedback like they have done in the past, really hoping Riot Repertoir is one of the reds that listens to the player base.
: This is literally the most important thing I want confirmation on. I'd rather have a broken but fun Quinn than a new one not even other Quinn mains will play more than a month. I personally like Assassin Quinn as it is a unique roll in ranged ADs and I want it preserved more than map pressure. But if I'm alone thinking that among Quinn mains I guess I'd have to mive on.
That's what I'm afraid of, no blind, and no execute? That's a lot of dueling power just gone, and no base damage on the passive likely means a weaker early game. What does this do for Quinn except make her more like the other ADC in the game, which I thought was the opposite of what they were trying to do. I also like the assassin aspects of Quinn, they are one of the big reasons I play her. It would make much more sense to clean up her auto attacks, make the execute hit maximum damage at ~25% enemy health and maybe have E reset on kill or assist. It would preserve Quinns identity as a duelist that can sneak behind enemy lines to hit their back line, the E reset would allow her to be more consistent in eliminating an enemy and getting out by kiting the remaining enemies. Returning the ability to reactivate R mid E to get the distance part of vault would be good too.
: > If we don't like this. And we find it weak. Are you willing to say "we messed up" and find a different avenue of fixing her. There will always be people that don't like changes, so I will likely never get a good read on the portion of people that don't like a change. If it's weak or something's off about it, however, we would address that, yes.
> I will likely never get a good read on the portion of people that don't like a change. Please don't use this as a reason to ignore the feedback, I'd much rather see a less popular seeming rework that preserves a champions strengths and core play style than one that gets a lot of likes but homogenizes them, Quinn is one of the more unique ADC-type champions and I don't want to see that disappear. Also just so you know I might keep commenting continuously until I get some sort of feedback just because I am kind of freaking out about these changes right now, it feels like a punch to the stomach right now because none of these sound like Quinn.
: This is the most important question: **If we don't like this. And we find it weak. Are you willing to say "we messed up" and find a different avenue of fixing her.** Or will you do the typical riot thing of "we like this change so even if you don't , get used to it" Because I know I haven't actually played her yet, meaning my complaints are not backed up. They're less than valid. But I know what I like about Quinn, I know what makes her strong, I know what makes her weak, and know what makes her fun, and this isn't it. And my greatest fear is that my thoughts and feelings will fall on deaf ears like every other mistake riot has made. And hopefully this isn't a mistake, maybe there is some good in this. I won't know till I actually play her. BUT IF IT IS. CAN YOU ADMIT **IF** THIS IS A MISTAKE.
I really hope they take player feedback into consideration on this one, I don't think Quinn needs changes, and these ones don't make any sense to me, they pretty much change Quinns play style completely, and definitely for the worse
: Thanks folks, this wasn't intended and the team will look into it.
Just change the red side minions back to save time.
: https://youtu.be/qHHXmoezSus they're too easy to cancel compared to other marksmen
I would prefer they just fix this and leave the rest alone, I like Quinn as is
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
@riotrepertoir, I recently switched to maining Quinn(about 3 months ago now), after the first few games she has become one of my favorite champions to play, I don't want you to feel insulted by this, but I really hope these changes do not go live. They are far too drastic, it doesn't fit Quinn at all. The reason I play Quinn is because of how unique she is. She is a strong duelist, she may not be as reliable for sustained damage as actual ADC, but her ability to kite and duel fighters or burst squishy targets makes her one of the most enjoyable champions I've played. With these changes I can't see her being Viable as a solo laner, which would be a real loss. The stated goals of these changes were to create diversity in the marksman role, so why homogenize the one ADC that has been played in solo lanes since release? I've had some of the most enjoyable games with Quinn since I started playing her, even if we didn't win. I really don't want to lose a character. PLEASE, don't ignore this, as a former Sona main I'm really not looking forward to another PBE rework cycle where I plead with you to reconsider the changes while getting absolutely no response, while everyone tries to reassure me of how much stronger she will be, only to see her nerfed repeatedly over the patches following the release. I don't want to see a unique character lose their identity, I like where Quinn is now, even if she isn't meta, she's the fighter/quasi-assassin marksman that I'll pick into a counter because I really enjoy playing her. I like the way She works, if she stays the same for the rest of the lifespan of the game I would still play her, even if everyone on my team flamed me for it every game, I would still play this champion.
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