: Dark Seal & Eyeball Changes
I don't get the point of Eyeball Collection anymore. Previously, it was the scaling damage option. Now, it seems like the other two scale infinitely while this one doesn't. You get a boost a little faster but why would anyone go this anymore? You lose utility and it's harder to stack too
: Ekko Conqueror Bugs
Weirdly, Ekko does seem to get proper credit for his passive when he has Deadman's Plate. It doesn't matter if it's at 100 momentum stacks or none. It's not DMP giving the stack directly. Even if I auto with a fully stacked DMP, it still offers no bonus stack. It's only when the Ekko passive would have procced.
: Ekko Conqueror Bugs
His E also gives no stacks. It's just the one stack he'd get from autoing anyway.
: Can you close ranked mode on pbe
Wouldn't it be better for balance testing if people are actually trying a little?
: I don't disagree that Bruisers need a rune like this and it should be more focused towards them, but your arguments don't make me see why this rune should be gutted for ranged champs. If you're afraid ADCs would abuse this rune, then look back on how hard ADCs abused Fervor before. They didn't, and they were not the reason Fervor was removed either. The interaction with Runaans and Twitch ult was exactly the same with Fervor as this Conqueror. Cassio sounds like the only fringe case out of Mages abusing this rune, except that's only one champion, not a group of champions. If she did abuse the rune, then Riot can just nerf the champ not the rune (ex. Gangplank with Grasp and Ezreal with Klepto). Even then, I don't see her making the greatest use of the rune since she's currently valued more for her poke build than DPS build. The biggest issue that would result in the rune being nerf is if it's a repeat of the situation where it's clearly stronger on an entire group of champions and it crowds out other options (ex. release Aery and reworked Dark Harvest). The true damage doesn't look that broken considering it's only 10% (which means you only get benefit on enemies with ~2+ defensive items) and the healing doesn't help if you're squishy and you get bursted out anyway. This rune also doesn't significantly help their laning phase, so it's a choice of a better late game option vs a more useful early game one. Bruisers will still be the biggest user of this rune because they make the greatest use of all of its aspect. Even then, they're in one of their best spots in a long time with the current version of Conqueror, enough that they're crowding out other champion options, which is why this rune is getting mini-reworked.
> [{quoted}](name=Gummimon,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=6YyL4HUM,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-11T00:54:17.747+0000) > > I don't disagree that Bruisers need a rune like this and it should be more focused towards them, but your arguments don't make me see why this rune should be gutted for ranged champs. > > > If you're afraid ADCs would abuse this rune, then look back on how hard ADCs abused Fervor before. They didn't, and they were not the reason Fervor was removed either. The interaction with Runaans and Twitch ult was exactly the same with Fervor as this Conqueror. > > > Cassio sounds like the only fringe case out of Mages abusing this rune, except that's only one champion, not a group of champions. If she did abuse the rune, then Riot can just nerf the champ not the rune (ex. Gangplank with Grasp and Ezreal with Klepto). Even then, I don't see her making the greatest use of the rune since she's currently valued more for her poke build than DPS build. > > > The biggest issue that would result in the rune being nerf is if it's a repeat of the situation where it's clearly stronger on an entire group of champions and it crowds out other options (ex. release Aery and reworked Dark Harvest). The true damage doesn't look that broken considering it's only 10% (which means you only get benefit on enemies with ~2+ defensive items) and the healing doesn't help if you're squishy and you get bursted out anyway. This rune also doesn't significantly help their laning phase, so it's a choice of a better late game option vs a more useful early game one. > > > Bruisers will still be the biggest user of this rune because they make the greatest use of all of its aspect. Even then, they're in one of their best spots in a long time with the current version of Conqueror, enough that they're crowding out other champion options, which is why this rune is getting mini-reworked. Nerfing Cass for Conqueror ties her viability to one rune. It is much easier for ranged champions to get Conqueror stacks, keep uptime and to utilize it safely. I think being melee only can solve a lot of balance headaches but maybe there is a more elegant solution.
: New Conqueror Broken
I too am worried that ranged champs will ruin this for melees (just like for DH). The new DH rework ruined it for junglers and drastically lowered its skillcap (the soul pick-up game was by far the most fun and interesting part), as well as scaling. It was also OP at first primarily because of champions like Karthus, Xerath or Veigar since there was no ranged champion nerf. It's always safer to use runes like the new Conqueror on ranged champions and so much easier to keep at uptime. A bruiser has to have the gold to facetank enough damage to get the stacks and do some damage. Cass can do it all faster, from range and with more safety.
: Dr. Mundo Censorship
Riot was sold to a Chinese company and it may have something to do with their policies. I agree with you that it doesn't fit Mundo.
: When will Neeko be available?
: Dark Harvest 1.5 second reset is a silly nerf
I don't like the new DH design. It feels less satisfying and requires minimal knowledge/skill to use optimally. While more champions can use it, game health suffers for it and the goal for it is blurred (competing much more directly with Electrocute). Do we really want more champions to use it if the core group served now suffers for it? We're taking a well designed and rewarding jungle oriented (but not exclusive) rune and turning it into something that now doesn't properly meet the needs of junglers. They're now at a disadvantage compared to laners because getting stacks is far slower and less reliable. The late game power is also A LOT worse because you can't pick-up stacks from monsters, dead allies, or enemies you didn't assist in killing. The power curve for the rune is flattened and those highs are gone. What you get instead is new champions abusing it with a low-risk playstyle. For example, Xerath can literally proc. DH with just his R vs a squishy at level 11+. He can do it just for the intention of poking and getting stacks. This is what you're REALLY rewarding in the end. Assassins scale worse with this because they can't just utilize safe poke. They actually have to take real risk to use it BUT it has to be balanced for the pokers and ranged mages too. Thus, the baseline power is restricted so it's not abused by the ranged users and what you get is a necessarily weak rune for those who it's actually supposed to serve. It becomes a watered down version for the group who needs it most. Assassins still won't have much of a late game and become even more feast/famine while the lower risk champions benefit. The current DH being tied to an auto attack is a good range limiter so you have to work a bit to use it and it also [offers more precision so that you can properly decide who to target.](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/YXhxmsLE-new-dark-harvest-frustration-with-application) It's similar to how Electrocute isn't OP on ranged champions or pokers because you actually have to hit multiple abilities. You can't just sit a screen away and poke someone to below half. Poke styles are fine but this rune disproportionately helps those champions instead of the intended audience.
: Ravenous Hunter Nerf Hurts Off Meta Jungle Picks
I should add that I don't think a nerf for Ravenous Hunter is truly warranted. There are some fringe cases (Kassadin, Jax) but, it's not overly dominant and in fact helps a lot of picks which would be even further outside of the meta. For instance, I've tried some lower tier junglers without it and it was too much punishment from camps. Not taking it also makes you weaker to invades both because of the reduced dueling and the lower HP with which you'll usually clear. On the lower tier picks, you're not likely to invade yourself but being invaded makes your pick even less viable. On the other hand, many of the normal junglers do perfectly fine without it. You can play Evelynn or Shaco with any rune you like. The same goes for Gragas, Jarvan, Lee, Vi, Kayn etc. The standard picks don't depend on it. The ones who suffer the most tend to be on the weaker end of the spectrum anyway. Plus, these fringe picks aren't strong early. They can't compete in ganks. They can't duel most junglers. They can't invade and pressure like an Udyr. In order to ever be worth picking, they need to at least have a strong mid-late and the current ravenous hunter helps give them something to play for.
: PBE Celerity changes feel really bad and I ran some calculations using Zoe as an Example
I think it's weird that the new celerity doesn't work off boots. My concerns with it: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/g4o3UrA2-new-celerity-non-decision
: New Celerity: Non-Decision
Now I see it won't work with "boot type items". I think this is unintuitive and not particularly logical.
: In my opinion, if the current iteration of Dark Harvest is the same as live
Totally agree! Some of my thoughts on it are here: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/6MMgXUEU-new-dh-proposal-feedback I don't even think the new one applies on structures. It's just a less interesting, more snowbally and more niche rune (dramatically favors laners and champions with an easy in/out play-style). It also becomes more about pairing it with a high AP/AD build rather than just taking it for its own sake. Thus, tankier builds going this also suffer since part of its power budget is in scaling ratios. It's tied much more into specific kits and builds than the live version. Overall, it offers less skill expression, fewer stylistic options and less versatility for unclear benefit. It's a feast/famine rune with very little actual decision making. Am I now going to take bad fights to get stacks? Unless I have a guaranteed escape and a lot of vision, that will still be the wrong decision (just like you don't want to suicide for Kayn's form or Kindred marks). However, if I'm winning, I can take nearly any fight and get more stacks. But what changed? If I'm wining, I generally want to fight anyway since we are likely to be favorites. How is my decision making being changed by this rune? It essentially isn't.
: darkharvest new rework? buffed? more broken than it is?
Broken or not,[ it's a horrible design imo](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/6MMgXUEU-new-dh-proposal-feedback). It's one of the few decisions Riot is considering that I truly hate. The way stacks work on live is so much more interesting. Even if you want champions to offer stacks from the DH proc. itself, the old way of acquiring stacks shouldn't go away. That mini-game offers a lot of skill expression both in fights and pathing. For example, I remember countless times when I was waiting for a jg monster to be low HP before I pounced. That way I can proc. my current stack on their jungler and then get the second proc. off the camp. I even had clutch moments in teamfights where I'd have died and was the last man standing but I smited a cannon for the DH stack and dashed right in to cleanup the last player. The old design also makes the rune worthwhile for jungle players too instead of simply worse. There's virtually no decision making with the new design and it just seems so stale and indescribably lame. I don't care how strong it is or the numbers. It's just so uninteresting. I also think the current DH is FAR more internally consistent and logical. It's even very clear to understand visually if you've never read the description. Important dead units offer their life force (cannons, monsters, dead players). The new one is odd. You get stacks from bringing someone to an arbitrary HP value.
: I've played a few matches..not a fan of the new DH..it feels very very weak. It takes WAY too long to get enough souls for it to be useful and not getting one on a kill if you've got a soul recently is a really poor way to make it feel rewarding to actually kill someone.
> [{quoted}](name=KrystialKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=6MMgXUEU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-25T00:15:19.424+0000) > > I've played a few matches..not a fan of the new DH..it feels very very weak. It takes WAY too long to get enough souls for it to be useful and not getting one on a kill if you've got a soul recently is a really poor way to make it feel rewarding to actually kill someone. Even if it were the same power level, it's a less versatile, less interactive and simply boring design. I don't even know what problem it's trying to solve exactly. After the DH nerf, I don't think it's that problematic anymore even in the jungle (although it's still better than Electrocute usually). If assassins are too strong, it's not because of DH primarily. And honestly, they are probably not really too strong in the vast majority of cases on this patch. What people need to understand is that the counterplay to stuff like Shaco, Evelynn, Kha isn't supposed to be 1v1. It's supposed to be through team play and decision making. Even if your team fails to cooperate and react properly, you still can't extend for waves or walk first as an ADC, facecheck bushes, stray from your support etc. This is what assassins do.
: NEXUS BLITZ THE BEST MODE EVER MADE BY RIOT.
I actually really enjoyed Overcharge.
: Gold Funneling Nerf Feedback
This also punishes powerfarm junglers like Shyvana. There are a lot of unintended consequences.
: TP Nerf is necessary?
I think they should remove the reduced CD on cancel but no other nerf is necessary imo. If it is still too much, probably buff the other options slightly. It's weird to have it as the only summoner spell with a greater than 5 minute CD.
: > [{quoted}](name=Straniu,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zW5P08zu,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-03T21:33:21.687+0000) Ravenous Hunter, Ultimate Hunter, Ingenious Hunter, Relentless Hunter Bounty Hunter stacks now grant 80 bonus gold > All great feedback here btw, but just wanted to call this out specifically as an accidental tooltip change. No in-game effect has been pushed to PBE nor are there any plans to do so.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Rovient,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zW5P08zu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-03T21:58:47.568+0000) > > All great feedback here btw, but just wanted to call this out specifically as an accidental tooltip change. No in-game effect has been pushed to PBE nor are there any plans to do so. Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Something else I wanted to also add on the new Ghost Poro is that this actually seems maybe even too good on JG. I haven't played with it but I'd probably take it over the others. It allows me to defend against opposite side invades while also being aggressive myself. This would probably make early game JGs even more attractive too since they already win duels but will now do so with more safety (if you win a duel convincingly and quickly enough, collapses matter less) and vision. It might sound better on paper than it is and the old Ghost Poro was getting basically no use (for good reason) so it definitely merited attention. I just hope that the more late game Eyeball Collection will remain a decent option in the JG. Anyway, I can't wait to test this. :)
: "These are potential buffs for champions with built in MS bonuses such as Singed, Nocturne, Hecarim, and Trundle but a nerf to the rest." that's the whole point of the change, it's too good of a rune all around, they want to restrict it to be just as good as other rune picks from that tree. Hence the global MS lowered and the AP/AD ratios increased. That means that it won't have that much of a different effect on champs like Singed, Hecarim, etc... while making it less effective on other champs.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=uQYIqdXQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-01T22:40:42.927+0000) > > "These are potential buffs for champions with built in MS bonuses such as Singed, Nocturne, Hecarim, and Trundle but a nerf to the rest." that's the whole point of the change, it's too good of a rune all around, they want to restrict it to be just as good as other rune picks from that tree. Hence the global MS lowered and the AP/AD ratios increased. That means that it won't have that much of a different effect on champs like Singed, Hecarim, etc... while making it less effective on other champs. I addressed this specific issue. This doesn't make it "just as good as other runes from the tree", it likely makes it a must have on those champions with kit synergy and far too weak on everyone else. It isn't even a decision anymore. What is the point of a rune where there is no player expression? It might as well not exist and just become a part of the kits.
: Runic Echoes Needs MS More than AP - AN EXPLANATION
MS is also less of a laning stat so it's easier to make Runic Echoes strong without it being overly attractive to laners.
: I really really dislike lowering the damage on the Hydra items, it's a nerf in my eyes. Part of the reason I buy Ravenous Hydra is because it is one of the highest AD damage item in the game, and I don't want that to change. Can't you lower the cost of Tiamat instead? Most people don't upgrade it until very late anyways, at which point these changes becomes a nerf to a final build while intending to be a buff.
> [{quoted}](name=Ataraxis,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=QzwOyzht,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-17T21:37:10.825+0000) > > I really really dislike lowering the damage on the Hydra items, it's a nerf in my eyes. Part of the reason I buy Ravenous Hydra is because it is one of the highest AD damage item in the game, and I don't want that to change. Can't you lower the cost of Tiamat instead? Most people don't upgrade it until very late anyways, at which point these changes becomes a nerf to a final build while intending to be a buff. If they lower the cost of Tiamat any more, it'll become a must buy on junglers. This isn't inherently bad but I feel it's at the price point where there's a good amount of choice.
: Fighter Items on PBE for 8.12
Atmas returns! Mundo's going to love this. Trundle too and quite a few others. I'm looking forward to trying it. Wasn't this initially removed because you feared the combination of tankiness + damage? What changed to make it easier to balance? Is it because ADCs will be stronger vs late game tanks anyway in 8.11? BTW: Why are the Hydra items being nerfed and made less slot efficient? Those are core for a fighter's late game. If you just want them to be cheaper, why aren't we getting 35g per AD lost or at least 30ish?
: Mundo PBE Nerfs A Bit Much
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrMundoMains/comments/8h7p6y/how_strong_is_mundo_after_the_buffs/ These are thoughts from Mundo mains that I thought were interesting.
: Marksman and AD Itemization Changes coming to PBE shortly
Will Corki get compensation for the Fleet Footwork nerf? He has underperformed in all roles ever since the AD/level nerf. He's not even strong at the high MMRs or competitive and even his late game doesn't score exceptionally well. I might try Lethal Tempo on him but he already has a weak laning phase even as is and he doesn't stack enough AD to make Electrocute attractive. Press the Attack is also awkward because of his low AS making it hard to proc., especially if you weave in abilities. Another problem I have with Corki is his insane vulnerability to AD mid assassins like Talon or Zed. Vs burst assassins like Katarina or Fizz, he can go the mini hexdrinker rune or buy some MR. What to do vs Talon though? No item fits well. GA's just not up enough, Ninja Tabi have been nerfed in armor and Corki REALLY wants the Mpen from Sorcs too. I guess he can go Zhonya's but his AP ratios were gutted so it doesn't seem all that viable either. There's nothing like Hexdrinker vs physical damage. Seeker's Armguard is a little like that but only attractive for champions stacking AP. One Cloth Armor is certainly not enough for the slot and buying GA is a bit hard due to the 1300g requirement but I know people will say "go Stopwatch." Ok, then what? I don't die once and then I have no Stopwatch. He will have his R up in another minute and a half. It's like with GA. The CDs are just not aligned so it's basically guaranteed death if the AD mid gets just a little fed from one roam bot lane etc. The one thing that has somewhat helped is to go Resolve secondary with Bone Plating and Chrysalis while also building an early Vamp Scepter + Cloth Armor and running Bloodline so that I am generally above 75% HP in lane. It's still a mess to make that many sacrifices vs them but I don't play AD mid assassins so perhaps I am being biased. Still, it's infinitely harder than when playing an AP mid vs them. Seeker's Armguard is effective even to just sit on and very accessible. Zhonya's pretty much negates all AD assassins when you have it up if you use it correctly. Lastly, it seems that ADCs as a whole are getting less armor but more health. Since Corki does primarily magic damage, this also hurts him both when roaming to kill bot and when actually attempting to be a bot laner. BTW: Why are my posts defaulting to a score of zero? I don't even get downvoted a lot normally.
: I hear flashes nonstop
I had that too on PBE in the training mode once. I can't reproduce it though.
: New Runic Echoes - Missing the MS
One thing to consider is that without any mana on Runic Echoes, there is a bit of anti-synergy with CDR. CDR lets you spam more spells but without a proper mana pool, that goes to waste. If it were just MS, then a secondary mana item like Abyssal, RoA, IBG etc. would probably become meta. That way you can utilize the CDR better and also potentiate it with more CDR. CDR tends to be a stat with break points (such as when you can get 2 rotations in for a fight) and that works increasingly better the more you have. I'm having a really hard time giving a real recommendation on how this item should be. Most jungle players probably do enjoy the MS more though. Mana definitely pushes it away from champs like AP shyv, Rumble etc. but is that really such a big cost if it otherwise opens up more champions and flexibility elsewhere in builds? While I think the MS is stronger and feels better when ahead or with sufficient planning, having mana on the item would open up more second item choices and make it less costly to give blue buff too. I prefer the MS for sure but it might be that just raw mana would do more to help JG diversity. MS also in a way penalizes weak early game junglers harder when they face strong ones who are snowballing lanes and then invading with a completed runic faster. Maybe the ideal is to offer a bit of both mana and MS (let's say 3% MS).
: Mundo is one of the strongest top laners right now on Live with the fourth highest winrate (52.75%) and the seventh highest playrate (3.28%). He also isn't that hard to play, with champion.gg showing his mastery curve is very short (winrate by games played doesn't change that much). For someone as strong as Live Mundo currently is, he shouldn't be that easy. These nerfs should bring him down to around a 49%-50% winrate, which is balanced.
> [{quoted}](name=Joseph Kanaan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=dmN3INtI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:32:52.997+0000) > > Mundo is one of the strongest top laners right now on Live with the fourth highest winrate (52.75%) and the seventh highest playrate (3.28%). He also isn't that hard to play, with champion.gg showing his mastery curve is very short (winrate by games played doesn't change that much). > > For someone as strong as Live Mundo currently is, he shouldn't be that easy. These nerfs should bring him down to around a 49%-50% winrate, which is balanced. It's still a small sample but he's at 52.6% now in Plat+ and that's not so unusual, especially for an easier champion (lower skill floor = harder to mess up and thus higher winrate even in a balanced state). Singed has had a 53% winrate for many patches and has a comparable pick rate. I don't see him as being OP either. I don't think Mundo's OP if people play well vs him and also buy Grievous Wounds. Winrates mean little in terms of objective balance. For example, WW had a high winrate and wasn't objectively strong (bad WWs also don't drag the winrate down as much as for other champs). If he were OP, you'd see him have a higher than 1.5% ban rate in KR and you'd see him used in competitive. It was a nerf just because SQ players outside of KR aren't good enough to understand him. The patch notes on WW didn't even make sense. They were saying he had a good clear when he actually has slow clears pre-Tiamat and can't even do Raptors properly (which makes his pathing exploitable and predictable). Maybe I'm wrong but this is the first time Mundo's been viable in months for either role. People might just not be playing around his spikes well or itemizing properly. I'm not totally against those R changes but I think they are too much without some kind of compensation elsewhere. I'm guessing that if those go live, he'll be yet again bad at both roles and sub 50% winrate
: i think with the changes to {{item:1039}} we dont really need the mana on runic... but i do REALLY wish we could keep the movement speed i would love 10% cdr and my 7% movement speed 20% cdr is nice and all, but i can get 10% cdr really easy... the movement speed is a LOT harder to come by
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=i7dOAcvy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-04T15:30:41.489+0000) > > i think with the changes to {{item:1039}} we dont really need the mana on runic... > but i do REALLY wish we could keep the movement speed > > i would love 10% cdr and my 7% movement speed > > 20% cdr is nice and all, but i can get 10% cdr really easy... the movement speed is a LOT harder to come by I think if they were to keep the MS, AP junglers would definitely be back. MS is especially nice on Fiddlesticks or melee junglers such as Gragas, Amumu, Ekko and Diana. After Amumu Qs (which itself is helped by MS), he wants to keep you in his W. Some of these would have preferred Runeglaive more but that's too niche. For example Fiddlesticks or Karthus JG certainly don't want that. MS is a great stat on everyone. I suppose mana is more targetted to help AP burst junglers because defensive itemization tends to have mana items such as IBG, Abyssal or FH. This makes some sense but the burst AP junglers also benefit more from MS than the tanks because they depend more on snowballing as well as getting in/out cleanly. Overall though, mana likely helps those stacking raw AP more. BTW: As far as Amumu goes, it would be nice to have some other minor interactions in his kit for skilled players. WW for example has a fairly basic kit but actually a ton of little tricks and outplay potential. As much as I disagree with the nerf direction and severity, his kit is well designed. It's like poker. Easy to play, hard to master perfectly.
: I'd rather the mana be removed completely and added more to the mana regen in the ludens proc honestly. That way non-mana reliant AP champions would also be able to use the item assuming it got something else in it's place.
> [{quoted}](name=Voracious,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=i7dOAcvy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-04T08:51:46.130+0000) > > I'd rather the mana be removed completely and added more to the mana regen in the ludens proc honestly. That way non-mana reliant AP champions would also be able to use the item assuming it got something else in it's place. Hah, yeah. I suppose Rumble JG isn't too fond of 300 mana.
: i would honestly rater just add the 10% CDR and keep my 7%movement speed, most ap jungler like movement speed anyways. its ganna suck losing that 7%
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=yVLVPBjP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-03T19:17:45.843+0000) > > i would honestly rater just add the 10% CDR and keep my 7%movement speed, > most ap jungler like movement speed anyways. its ganna suck losing that 7% I feel the same way but I do take the first two Blues!
: > [{quoted}](name=Straniu,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:40:33.615+0000) > > I never said he was weak early and even explicitly stated that his early ganks were too strong for most SQ players to deal with. People just don't change their playstyle much even when spam pinged. If they just wait out his early aggression, he wouldn't be a problem at all. However, even to this day, people frequently die top to his super predictable level 3 gank. WW can't farm well without Tiamat so Raptors aren't an option and given his kit, it's pretty clear that he wants to gank early on rather than powerfarm. > > I actually agree that nerfing early and buffing late is the way to go. I think this would maintain viability across ELOs while putting a larger clamp on his performance in mid and low tiers. mb I probably misread your post when I wrote that you said WW was weak early, apologies on that. Though I agree that WW needs some balancing, but the current changes are simply straight up gutting him, whereas he needs a weaker early game and a stronger late game. Another thing that can be very powerful on WW is his ability to counter jngl without losing too much health, giving him the ability to even fight the enemy jngler if he/she shows up. A lot of jnglers are relatively low on their first clear, but not WW. I hope they put him in the right direction, and not just straight up put him out of the meta.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T00:16:32.416+0000) > > mb I probably misread your post when I wrote that you said WW was weak early, apologies on that. Though I agree that WW needs some balancing, but the current changes are simply straight up gutting him, whereas he needs a weaker early game and a stronger late game. Another thing that can be very powerful on WW is his ability to counter jngl without losing too much health, giving him the ability to even fight the enemy jngler if he/she shows up. A lot of jnglers are relatively low on their first clear, but not WW. I hope they put him in the right direction, and not just straight up put him out of the meta. We're basically on the same page. The real issue with WW in SQ is his early snowballing + Tiamat timing. The Q nerf is placebo for the phase that actually frustrates players facing WW. It'll have no effect pre-6 and people will probably just have to max W first completely now. Late game you'll be at a larger disadvantage than normal but WW's late game 5v5 was not strong to begin with. This will feel worse for WW players (especially if they have more difficulty closing out with a well-earned lead) but it won't be very noticeable to enemies. I think his winrate will take a .7% hit or so from such a change but possibly less if some people who don't main WW just read about it and give up on him. He's a single target duelist champion so he should be decent at snowballing (his healing helps him maintain his leads too) but clearly his W is too much for SQ players at most MMRs. This will always lead to artificially high winrates even though the champion isn't actually OP. If Riot wants to stop this kind of whining, he needs to be tweaked not nerfed. Or if it is a nerf, it should be just delaying his power spike a bit. Objectively, he isn't OP so this is why a straight Q nerf seems wrong to me. It not only doesn't address the issue causing his higher winrate (which isn't itself necessarily a balance issue), but it also isn't what's causing the complaining. Meanwhile, it makes him less viable at the highest MMRs and especially in competitive where games drag on longer. Essentially, the change in no way addresses the issue while also narrowing his viability across MMRs (dooming him to a mid MMR and lower champion). If it has little effect (as I predict), it'll probably lead to even more undeserved nerfs and a further reduction in WW's viability across MMRs. Kha'Zix will nearly always be picked over him in Diamond+ and he's already a better champion even now despite the lower winrate.
: WW weak early ? He is one of the best early junglers there is. He has insane lifesteal when clearing camps (so no gold wasted in pots, instead going for the first tiamat component, making it very easy to get it later, making his clear even faster), he has AS depending on target's current HP, a healing Q that heals based on missing health, a damage reduction E that follows up on a CC, and a movement speed spell that lets you chase low enemies without wasting flash, all that at only lvl 3. He is very powerful early on, but falls off as the game goes. On the contrary, nerfing his early while buffing his late is good, which corresponds to the first balance they did on him, but this second change is straight up just gutting him.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:24:03.349+0000) > > WW weak early ? He is one of the best early junglers there is. He has insane lifesteal when clearing camps (so no gold wasted in pots, instead going for the first tiamat component, making it very easy to get it later, making his clear even faster), he has AS depending on target's current HP, a healing Q that heals based on missing health, a damage reduction E that follows up on a CC, and a movement speed spell that lets you chase low enemies without wasting flash, all that at only lvl 3. He is very powerful early on, but falls off as the game goes. On the contrary, nerfing his early while buffing his late is good, which corresponds to the first balance they did on him, but this second change is straight up just gutting him. I never said he was weak early and even explicitly stated that his early ganks were too strong for most SQ players to deal with. People just don't change their playstyle much even when spam pinged. If they just wait out his early aggression, he wouldn't be a problem at all. However, even to this day, people frequently die top to his super predictable level 3 gank. WW can't farm well without Tiamat so Raptors aren't an option and given his kit, it's pretty clear that he wants to gank early on rather than powerfarm. I actually agree that nerfing early and buffing late is the way to go. I think this would maintain or even expand his viability across ELOs while putting a larger clamp on his performance in mid and low tiers. If they're going to change him at all, it should be in a way that nerfs him in SQ but makes him more viable for the highest tiers and especially competitive, where he struggles so much that he isn't even seriously considered. If he's just nerfed with no other kit changes, all it does is hurt him in SQ without doing anything positive for him in the brackets where he clearly has issues. On the other hand, if he's too strong in SQ, of course he can't be buffed to be viable in competitive since SQ players would just pull their hair out and swear at Riot before they adjusted their play. This is why I think it would be a good idea to essentially gut his W early (the main reason he's strong) but bring some more power late game. The old PBE changes seemed good to me but a bit too conservative on the W nerf. BTW: With a large W nerf, it also makes WW more of an invading jungler. He'd be trying to duel his counterpart because dueling would still be good even if his ganks suffered. Admittedly, he wouldn't be a very safe counter jungler and would probably aim more to just get a few extra camps for Tiamat as he rushes level 6.
: Seraph's Nerf - Not Consistent With Item Identity
I just realized that this only affects AA's and NOT Seraph's. In that case, it is a good change and a smart way of nerfing it! You guys are on a roll with the balance stuff lately. 8.7 was a great patch too. Among other things, I liked how Ninja Tabi were nerfed for raw armor vs general physical damage but their identity was tightened as an anti auto attacker item. The changes to Resolve were also very much like I'd have wanted too. Now, just don't overdo Lux & Vi buffs. :P
: Math of Archangel's Passive Awe Change
Even if the math were to show it wasn't gutted, I think it's the wrong direction. It's supposed to be a big ticket scaling item that you need to stack. To maintain that identity, the stacking mechanic can be slowed, the shield can be further reduced/made less available or the cost can be increased. It shouldn't be brought back closer to a mid tier item. I explained my thoughts [here](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/QqEuTIc8-seraphs-nerf-not-consistent-with-item-identity).
: Don't think we have any plans to give melee love with the Rageblade price increase. It's still a very powerful item on the champs that utilize it. We haven't begun exploring Warwick changes yet (outside of the double Q change). Meddler mentioned in one of his recent posts that it's something that may potentially happen in the future. > Nerfs to Archangel's (new build path and stats have made this a bit strong), Janna, Xayah, Caitlyn, Warwick, Braum, Sion, Kog (though also need to see where Rageblade nerfs in 8.7 leave him) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/na3Ko02t-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-30
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=dJ74xREF,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-04T23:27:17.422+0000) > > Don't think we have any plans to give melee love with the Rageblade price increase. It's still a very powerful item on the champs that utilize it. > > We haven't begun exploring Warwick changes yet (outside of the double Q change). Meddler mentioned in one of his recent posts that it's something that may potentially happen in the future. > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/na3Ko02t-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-30 I'm not convinced WW needs any nerf. He's a champion designed to exploit SQ players even when balanced and I don't think people itemize great vs him either. He's a menace until players get much better. People don't like to have to adjust their play vs champions like Rammus, WW, Nocturne, Rengar, Zed (not sure of his current state) etc. but that doesn't mean those champions are actually out of line. This is probably why WW has a worse winrate in KR despite a far lower pick rate. He's also only banned 1% there but has a 40% ban rate here. WW would be picked in competitive if he were objectively strong. He has seen virtually zero competitive play since release. Moreover, while he has some tricks, his skill floor is quite low. In fact, WW actually guides you to the decisions you should be making as a jungler via his passive and reduced farming ability till Tiamat. Tiamat is a lever on his power but the problem in SQ is that he gets it quite fast since people give him early leads he shouldn't have. I think playing WW literally makes you a better jungler if you're not particularly skilled at the role. Since he's a good duelist, he can also snowball his lead well. Some champions will just have higher than average winrates for most of the ladder when objectively balanced. If he drops to a 50% winrate in SQ for below Diamond with his current kit, he'll probably just be unviable in Masters+. Thus, I don't think any nerf is required but perhaps there can be some tweak in his power. Maybe angle some power away from early and add it to late game (the old WW was better late game). One way to do this is to nerf his W passive early so he can't get fed as easily vs bad players. Another reason to do this is that it has become the best max order and nerfing this might give the option to max Q first instead (though probably not in 95% of cases). Furthermore, the best WW players tend to put only 3 points into W early and then max Q followed by E. It seems that they use it to snowball early but don't find enough benefit in putting more points relative to getting tankier from the other max orders. An example of how this would look 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55% -> 12% 24% 36% 48% 60% Having a larger difference in each rank would make W maxes more meaningful and an actual decision even after the early snowball phase. It might also make top WW more viable since he can split push and then use the slightly better max rank W to join his team faster. WW's not a great late game champ right now (outside of bad play which allows easy picks or in skirmishes) and this would help him a tiny bit there. It would also make Deadman's more attractive relative to just full tank with Randuin's. Overall, I think it's a net nerf for all tiers but it nerfs bad WWs the most. They'd have to consider the situation more and show up where they need to instead of just relying on the passive early to get fed and snowball, then get Tiamat, power farm -> dragon etc. For good WWs who know where to be and how to jungle in general, the nerf is less severe so I think this would hurt the highest MMRs less. **Other Champions:** I'd like to see Ekko JG get a bit of help too. I don't think he's quite there yet. A 15% missing mana return on his passive vs monsters or giving him a bit more AS/armor may bring him to a decent state. This would also help out his AP JG builds the most. One of the issues with going full AP is that you lack a quick burst of mana/cdr (ideally with some HP). The hybrid build that Arcsecond uses with some success until recently takes IBG and Abyssal to give him those (as well as some HP). If his passive had a bit of missing mana return, it would feel less necessary to go such items. The main balance threat for this is for mid Ekko using Q over the raptor wall to stay in lane forever. I think 15% is likely the point where this wouldn't be beneficial overall. For Ziggs, I think there needs to be better scaling to justify his unreliability. There are many lanes he loses too or at the very least can't push a lead very hard (due to ganks and a general lack of kill pressure). Super fun champion (maybe not as much against though) but just not worth it atm. He wasn't great even when DFT was in the game and he struggles even more now that Liandry's got nerfed especially for poke (more assassins mid isn't great for him either). If Seraph's is nerfed on top of it (perhaps a cost increase?) then he will be hit as well since it currently outperforms Luden's. Mundo JG used to go scaling armor + 3 Armor Quints. This allowed him a strong early relative to now and he wasn't top tier even then. He needs more armor to be a decent choice - especially after Cinderhulk nerfs & Cut Down buffs. I don't mind his kit too much because he's the only tank with a spammable poke ability & a solid split push option but he does depend on being super tanky to be relevant. Corki was overnerfed. Revert the AD nerf imo. FF already got nerfed and while he's a good generalist pick, there is also a lot of opportunity cost in the fact that he has no CC or lane pressure early. For an ADC, he's not good enough late game. Last time I checked in Diamond+, he was ~47% winrate late game. Gragas: I don't think it's quite enough. Maybe up the W damage reduction with AP scaling? There's a high chance that Syndra was overnerfed slightly even for higher MMR. It would be nice if Kench's stacking passive on autos worked on JG monsters. The devour should continue to not work on Blue or Red though. That would probably make him a mid tier jungler. In general though, if you wish to make these changes for Ekko or Kench, remember that there will be players who main them in the new roles. Thus, you can't treat it like a gimmicky off build such as AP Tristana. You have to actually support those roles in future patches and seasons if necessary. Otherwise, it's probably not even worth bothering with. BTW: I thought the 8.7 changes were fantastic. There was virtually nothing I'd have done differently. It was just well designed overall not just in what was nerfed but how it was done. For example, resolve isn't just straight gutted but becomes more of a mid-late game tree. This makes tanks less impactful early but also not quite as squishy late (which is a real problem facing ADCs with Lord Dom, mids with Void etc.) This makes the class differences more distinct instead of just being about what items you bought making anyone a tank.
: Ninja Tabi -10 Armor = Overnerfed - An Explanation
Nice strawman... after all, I said that I buy Tabis in order to clear the jungle, right? Try to have basic intellectual honesty when making a comment. At the very least attempt to understand the point instead of latching onto one thing and trying to ridicule it with gross misrepresentations or ad hominems. Everything about Tabis helps in the jungle and for objectives. Having full HP clears at all times means you can gank more, invade more, consider objectives such as Dragon more, fight more, quickly heal off the jungle with the LS component back to full HP etc. I never said they were required for clearing or that this was the primary reason for the purchase. They are a great general buy while Mercs are more situational.
: AP Kog'Maw is lost in the rifts of Summoner's Rift!!
I so wish that he was a viable mid laner, as he was for many seasons prior. Even when I bought him, mid lane was the only thing that appealed to me. I love the long-range hypercarry style even if there are a lot of games I lose before I'm relevant. I've tried him dozens of times in the last 2 seasons and he has not been up to par. Even if Riot buffs him to an acceptable level, I can't trust that they'll actually pay attention to him when balance shifts and he becomes unplayable again. He was never a gimmick but it's also not something they care to maintain and support. It's unfortunate for AP Kog fans.
: Dont touch my Evelyn, she is perfectly fine. You are trying to shelf her with your ideas.
> [{quoted}](name=Thor Almighty,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=cEEhPnlB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-17T21:54:47.061+0000) > > Dont touch my Evelyn, she is perfectly fine. You are trying to shelf her with your ideas. Nah, I'm just considering options which preserve a playstyle I enjoy. Although, my idea does change her playstyle quite a lot in extended fights. She wouldn't be able to restealth and go back into the fight. That's what would hurt her the most and it's why she might need additional tweaks to help her.
: Corki nerfs blow my mind if they go through given the ample feedback
Even LS thinks the Corki nerfs are nonsensical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FvJocbkfcQ
: It would destroy her. Her ganks before lvl 6 are bad, her CC isn't that realible and her E isn't that good withouth camouflage. If she needs ult to work, her gank pressure will be near to 0. Her numbers may need some nerf, but her kit works fine overall.
> [{quoted}](name=Rulho,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=cEEhPnlB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-17T03:51:08.917+0000) > > It would destroy her. Her ganks before lvl 6 are bad, her CC isn't that realible and her E isn't that good withouth camouflage. If she needs ult to work, her gank pressure will be near to 0. Her numbers may need some nerf, but her kit works fine overall. She already has no stealth pre-6 and mostly ganks when her ultimate is up. It might be too harsh but I think she'd still be viable. It might require other kit tweaks for compensation (perhaps lowering the R CD). I don't want her to get gutted. As a Corki player, I know how bad that feels. Either way, I hope that if they do nerf her, it's in a way that doesn't damage her late game. I love popping people late game on Eve. :D
: Simple Champ Select Clarity Improvement
No other thoughts? I personally see no downside to it.
: Buffs reverted?
probably too much too fast for a micropatch they need to evaluate smaller changes before moving to huge ones the Grasp changes seemed out of place to me anyway so I'm glad they're gone... it was making it into a jack of all trades keystone
: They got reverted thank god and instead are nerfing his mana costs which im totally fine with. Its more reasonable along with the nerf to mana band its going to make him have moments where he has no mana and needs to get it back with his passive.
> [{quoted}](name=rProxy,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=lIcMQAfG,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T00:35:14.270+0000) > > They got reverted thank god and instead are nerfing his mana costs which im totally fine with. Its more reasonable along with the nerf to mana band its going to make him have moments where he has no mana and needs to get it back with his passive. The [strange Corki nerfs](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/EAEeIZG5-feedback-on-corki-xerath-nerfs) are still there though and they're hitting the very reason anyone picks a no utility non-assassin champion like him: damage. He doesn't have great range like Azir (or his utility) and he's not strong early so he needs to be a fantastic late game sustained damage source. So far even his late game winrate is only 50%. This is not where nerfs should strike if they are legitimately necessary. At the very least, if they do hit damage, it should not be in a way that conflicts with the niche he fills. They should not be hitting his late game sustained damage. Besides, if Yasuo comes back with those buffs, Corki's indirectly nerfed too. Yasuo is hard for Corki. The same is true if more tanks come and build FH, Randuin's, Adaptive Helm etc. I have enough faith in Riot's balance team to think that they will not let those go to live. I don't even understand their obsession with nerfing Corki right now. Yes, he benefited from preseason but where is the data that shows he's overperforming to merit such huge nerfs? 0.5% ban , 51.6% winrate in Diamond+, not picked or banned once in All Stars so far and yet he has absurdly harsh nerfs on the PBE.... WHAT? It's like they desperately want to nerf him and are looking hard for a reason. I'm not opposed to some kind of nerf but they're huge and I don't like what they're targetting either.
: Its a huuuge fucking nerf to his late game when paired with the nerf to base damage.
> [{quoted}](name=rProxy,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=lIcMQAfG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T03:13:18.764+0000) > > Its a huuuge fucking nerf to his late game when paired with the nerf to base damage. If they make Yasuo good again, I certainly think he'll make a lot of skillshot picks such as Xerath quite a bit weaker. Xerath merits some nerf but that one is very harsh. I still have nightmares of Yasuo from when I tried Zilean a few months ago. He'd block/dodge all my damage and shove me under turret. I can only farm with Q and autos but he'd even put a stupid W in front of my wave so I couldn't do even that. If I try to go to the side, he'd smack my face and tank a turret shot or two before his shield broke. Xerath has more ways to damage the wave but I still think a decent Yasuo would be hard for him.
: I do agree but guess what, there are TONS of champs that have under 50% win rate and have been there for a long time and Riot does not buff/fix the issues with them. WHY is Yasuo getting such fast attention?
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=WlAdUhv3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T00:31:31.897+0000) > > I do agree but guess what, there are TONS of champs that have under 50% win rate and have been there for a long time and Riot does not buff/fix the issues with them. WHY is Yasuo getting such fast attention? Yasuo counterbalances some picks that are doing better than average now. For instance, he's amazing vs Corki, Xerath and Zilean. Corki's possibly a tad too strong. Zilean has such a low playrate that it's hard to judge. People in high ELO don't seem to think Zilean's very good but that might just be because they want more of a hard carry champion instead of something that just makes your team much more effective. Xerath is probably a bit too strong too. Anyway, I think part of the motivation for the Yasuo buffs is to indirectly nerf some mids that have easier lanes than normal. He tends to be really good vs skillshot mids. I gave up Ziggs because he seemed too unreliable late game and I also couldn't snowball early hard enough (no real kill pressure). Couple with the fact that he seemed to be pretty mediocre at best in the highest ELOs, I didn't think he was worth the investment. Anyway, I still had probably 100+ games of Ziggs and Yasuo was in my top 3 most annoying matchups. I hated facing him unless I could get my jungler to camp. In a 1v1 scenario, he makes skillshot kits useless if played well.
: It's a good thing Mundo won't want the AP anyway and will benefit enormously from the stacking AD bonuses, considering that he's an auto-attacking bruiser who already has an enormous AD steroid and is pretty fond of items like Titanic or Phantom Dancer. Tahm has 100% AD scaling on his autos, and he is also a very AA-focused tank. He will benefit from this rune if he wants to use it. Not as much as someone like Darius or Illaoi, but that's kind of the point; they want Grasp to be for bruisers because tanks already have 2 other strong keystone picks between Aftershock and Guardian, while the bruisers who they want to choose Grasp don't have many choices. If you're really aching for that AP, all you need is to swap Titanic out for something like RoA and just run the sort of build that Cho'Gath takes.
> [{quoted}](name=Yell At Your Dog,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zBLm7WZF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-07T15:47:49.764+0000) > > It's a good thing Mundo won't want the AP anyway and will benefit enormously from the stacking AD bonuses, considering that he's an auto-attacking bruiser who already has an enormous AD steroid and is pretty fond of items like Titanic or Phantom Dancer. > > Tahm has 100% AD scaling on his autos, and he is also a very AA-focused tank. He will benefit from this rune if he wants to use it. Not as much as someone like Darius or Illaoi, but that's kind of the point; they want Grasp to be for bruisers because tanks already have 2 other strong keystone picks between Aftershock and Guardian, while the bruisers who they want to choose Grasp don't have many choices. If you're really aching for that AP, all you need is to swap Titanic out for something like RoA and just run the sort of build that Cho'Gath takes. Both Mundo and Tahm would greatly prefer more HP and % health scaling damage from current Grasp to situational damage stat bonuses which don't even match their primary damage type. They auto but AD isn't an ideal stat from them. They would benefit much less from this keystone than other champions and thus they will be bad in solo lanes/jungle even if it's a neutral power difference (which it's not imo).
: Can we please let Yasuo stay out of meta for a few months please.
I hate the idea of rotating what's strong at the cost of objective and correct balance choices. Riot is guilty of doing this occasionally and I absolutely detest that approach. It's antithetical to the very concept of balance and it's terrible for the long term of a competitive game. Yasuo needs a buff and I think the MR change is fair if they want to make him more of a mid lane option. I wouldn't add the Q change on top of it. Doing both at the same time seems a bit risky but I'm not much of a Yasuo player so I might be wrong. BTW: I agree that showy champions don't deserve any special treatment/attention but overall, I think Riot hasn't been too bad about that. Althoguh, I suppose they might react faster when such champions are weak.
: They are obviously shifting the power of grasp from tanks to fighters. The niche is for fighters, which is good because for one fighters/bruisers didnt really have a good keystone and this is an attempt to address that; and also tanks are too dominant in lane with the sustain they get from grasp theres really no downside to playing a tank like maokai/ornn.
> [{quoted}](name=I Must Go Top,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zBLm7WZF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-07T06:28:39.000+0000) > > They are obviously shifting the power of grasp from tanks to fighters. The niche is for fighters, which is good because for one fighters/bruisers didnt really have a good keystone and this is an attempt to address that; and also tanks are too dominant in lane with the sustain they get from grasp theres really no downside to playing a tank like maokai/ornn. Those are literally just 2 champions. The vast majority of tanks were not really out of line and tanky junglers were underperforming slightly. This will just shift the meta to tanky champions with good ratios rather than just tanky alone (such as Mundo whose only AP ratio is on W). It seems too specific. Cho and other champions like him will really like this. Fighters would still rather go PtA or other runes more suited to damage. The current Gras seems like a mishmash of conflicting ideas and identities.
: Morgana's W buff a bit too strong
If these buffs also improve her when played mid, she can very easily become OP.
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Straniu

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