: Dark Harvest 1.5 second reset is a silly nerf
I don't like the new DH design. It feels less satisfying and requires minimal knowledge/skill to use optimally. While more champions can use it, game health suffers for it and the goal for it is blurred (competing much more directly with Electrocute). Do we really want more champions to use it if the core group served now suffers for it? We're taking a well designed and rewarding jungle oriented (but not exclusive) rune and turning it into something that now doesn't properly meet the needs of junglers. They're now at a disadvantage compared to laners because getting stacks is far slower and less reliable. The late game power is also A LOT worse because you can't pick-up stacks from monsters, dead allies, or enemies you didn't assist in killing. The power curve for the rune is flattened and those highs are gone. What you get instead is new champions abusing it with a low-risk playstyle. For example, Xerath can literally proc. DH with just his R vs a squishy at level 11+. He can do it just for the intention of poking and getting stacks. This is what you're REALLY rewarding in the end. Assassins scale worse with this because they can't just utilize safe poke. They actually have to take real risk to use it BUT it has to be balanced for the pokers and ranged mages too. Thus, the baseline power is restricted so it's not abused by the ranged users and what you get is a necessarily weak rune for those who it's actually supposed to serve. It becomes a watered down version for the group who needs it most. Assassins still won't have much of a late game and become even more feast/famine while the lower risk champions benefit. The current DH being tied to an auto attack is a good range limiter so you have to work a bit to use it and it also [offers more precision so that you can properly decide who to target.](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/YXhxmsLE-new-dark-harvest-frustration-with-application) It's similar to how Electrocute isn't OP on ranged champions or pokers because you actually have to hit multiple abilities. You can't just sit a screen away and poke someone to below half. Poke styles are fine but this rune disproportionately helps those champions instead of the intended audience.
: Ravenous Hunter Nerf Hurts Off Meta Jungle Picks
I should add that I don't think a nerf for Ravenous Hunter is truly warranted. There are some fringe cases (Kassadin, Jax) but, it's not overly dominant and in fact helps a lot of picks which would be even further outside of the meta. For instance, I've tried some lower tier junglers without it and it was too much punishment from camps. Not taking it also makes you weaker to invades both because of the reduced dueling and the lower HP with which you'll usually clear. On the lower tier picks, you're not likely to invade yourself but being invaded makes your pick even less viable. On the other hand, many of the normal junglers do perfectly fine without it. You can play Evelynn or Shaco with any rune you like. The same goes for Gragas, Jarvan, Lee, Vi, Kayn etc. The standard picks don't depend on it. The ones who suffer the most tend to be on the weaker end of the spectrum anyway. Plus, these fringe picks aren't strong early. They can't compete in ganks. They can't duel most junglers. They can't invade and pressure like an Udyr. In order to ever be worth picking, they need to at least have a strong mid-late and the current ravenous hunter helps give them something to play for.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: PBE Celerity changes feel really bad and I ran some calculations using Zoe as an Example
I think it's weird that the new celerity doesn't work off boots. My concerns with it: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/g4o3UrA2-new-celerity-non-decision
: New Celerity: Non-Decision
Now I see it won't work with "boot type items". I think this is unintuitive and not particularly logical.
Rioter Comments
: In my opinion, if the current iteration of Dark Harvest is the same as live
Totally agree! Some of my thoughts on it are here: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/6MMgXUEU-new-dh-proposal-feedback I don't even think the new one applies on structures. It's just a less interesting, more snowbally and more niche rune (dramatically favors laners and champions with an easy in/out play-style). It also becomes more about pairing it with a high AP/AD build rather than just taking it for its own sake. Thus, tankier builds going this also suffer since part of its power budget is in scaling ratios. It's tied much more into specific kits and builds than the live version. Overall, it offers less skill expression, fewer stylistic options and less versatility for unclear benefit. It's a feast/famine rune with very little actual decision making. Am I now going to take bad fights to get stacks? Unless I have a guaranteed escape and a lot of vision, that will still be the wrong decision (just like you don't want to suicide for Kayn's form or Kindred marks). However, if I'm winning, I can take nearly any fight and get more stacks. But what changed? If I'm wining, I generally want to fight anyway since we are likely to be favorites. How is my decision making being changed by this rune? It essentially isn't.
: darkharvest new rework? buffed? more broken than it is?
Broken or not,[ it's a horrible design imo](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/6MMgXUEU-new-dh-proposal-feedback). It's one of the few decisions Riot is considering that I truly hate. The way stacks work on live is so much more interesting. Even if you want champions to offer stacks from the DH proc. itself, the old way of acquiring stacks shouldn't go away. That mini-game offers a lot of skill expression both in fights and pathing. For example, I remember countless times when I was waiting for a jg monster to be low HP before I pounced. That way I can proc. my current stack on their jungler and then get the second proc. off the camp. I even had clutch moments in teamfights where I'd have died and was the last man standing but I smited a cannon for the DH stack and dashed right in to cleanup the last player. The old design also makes the rune worthwhile for jungle players too instead of simply worse. There's virtually no decision making with the new design and it just seems so stale and indescribably lame. I don't care how strong it is or the numbers. It's just so uninteresting. I also think the current DH is FAR more internally consistent and logical. It's even very clear to understand visually if you've never read the description. Important dead units offer their life force (cannons, monsters, dead players). The new one is odd. You get stacks from bringing someone to an arbitrary HP value.
Rioter Comments
: I've played a few matches..not a fan of the new DH..it feels very very weak. It takes WAY too long to get enough souls for it to be useful and not getting one on a kill if you've got a soul recently is a really poor way to make it feel rewarding to actually kill someone.
> [{quoted}](name=KrystialKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=6MMgXUEU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-25T00:15:19.424+0000) > > I've played a few matches..not a fan of the new DH..it feels very very weak. It takes WAY too long to get enough souls for it to be useful and not getting one on a kill if you've got a soul recently is a really poor way to make it feel rewarding to actually kill someone. Even if it were the same power level, it's a less versatile, less interactive and simply boring design. I don't even know what problem it's trying to solve exactly. After the DH nerf, I don't think it's that problematic anymore even in the jungle (although it's still better than Electrocute usually). If assassins are too strong, it's not because of DH primarily. And honestly, they are probably not really too strong in the vast majority of cases on this patch. What people need to understand is that the counterplay to stuff like Shaco, Evelynn, Kha isn't supposed to be 1v1. It's supposed to be through team play and decision making. Even if your team fails to cooperate and react properly, you still can't extend for waves or walk first as an ADC, facecheck bushes, stray from your support etc. This is what assassins do.
: NEXUS BLITZ THE BEST MODE EVER MADE BY RIOT.
I actually really enjoyed Overcharge.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Gold Funneling Nerf Feedback
This also punishes powerfarm junglers like Shyvana. There are a lot of unintended consequences.
Rioter Comments
: TP Nerf is necessary?
I think they should remove the reduced CD on cancel but no other nerf is necessary imo. If it is still too much, probably buff the other options slightly. It's weird to have it as the only summoner spell with a greater than 5 minute CD.
: > [{quoted}](name=Straniu,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zW5P08zu,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-03T21:33:21.687+0000) Ravenous Hunter, Ultimate Hunter, Ingenious Hunter, Relentless Hunter Bounty Hunter stacks now grant 80 bonus gold > All great feedback here btw, but just wanted to call this out specifically as an accidental tooltip change. No in-game effect has been pushed to PBE nor are there any plans to do so.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Rovient,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=zW5P08zu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-03T21:58:47.568+0000) > > All great feedback here btw, but just wanted to call this out specifically as an accidental tooltip change. No in-game effect has been pushed to PBE nor are there any plans to do so. Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Something else I wanted to also add on the new Ghost Poro is that this actually seems maybe even too good on JG. I haven't played with it but I'd probably take it over the others. It allows me to defend against opposite side invades while also being aggressive myself. This would probably make early game JGs even more attractive too since they already win duels but will now do so with more safety (if you win a duel convincingly and quickly enough, collapses matter less) and vision. It might sound better on paper than it is and the old Ghost Poro was getting basically no use (for good reason) so it definitely merited attention. I just hope that the more late game Eyeball Collection will remain a decent option in the JG. Anyway, I can't wait to test this. :)
  Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: "These are potential buffs for champions with built in MS bonuses such as Singed, Nocturne, Hecarim, and Trundle but a nerf to the rest." that's the whole point of the change, it's too good of a rune all around, they want to restrict it to be just as good as other rune picks from that tree. Hence the global MS lowered and the AP/AD ratios increased. That means that it won't have that much of a different effect on champs like Singed, Hecarim, etc... while making it less effective on other champs.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=uQYIqdXQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-01T22:40:42.927+0000) > > "These are potential buffs for champions with built in MS bonuses such as Singed, Nocturne, Hecarim, and Trundle but a nerf to the rest." that's the whole point of the change, it's too good of a rune all around, they want to restrict it to be just as good as other rune picks from that tree. Hence the global MS lowered and the AP/AD ratios increased. That means that it won't have that much of a different effect on champs like Singed, Hecarim, etc... while making it less effective on other champs. I addressed this specific issue. This doesn't make it "just as good as other runes from the tree", it likely makes it a must have on those champions with kit synergy and far too weak on everyone else. It isn't even a decision anymore. What is the point of a rune where there is no player expression? It might as well not exist and just become a part of the kits.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Runic Echoes Needs MS More than AP - AN EXPLANATION
MS is also less of a laning stat so it's easier to make Runic Echoes strong without it being overly attractive to laners.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: I really really dislike lowering the damage on the Hydra items, it's a nerf in my eyes. Part of the reason I buy Ravenous Hydra is because it is one of the highest AD damage item in the game, and I don't want that to change. Can't you lower the cost of Tiamat instead? Most people don't upgrade it until very late anyways, at which point these changes becomes a nerf to a final build while intending to be a buff.
> [{quoted}](name=Ataraxis,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=QzwOyzht,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-17T21:37:10.825+0000) > > I really really dislike lowering the damage on the Hydra items, it's a nerf in my eyes. Part of the reason I buy Ravenous Hydra is because it is one of the highest AD damage item in the game, and I don't want that to change. Can't you lower the cost of Tiamat instead? Most people don't upgrade it until very late anyways, at which point these changes becomes a nerf to a final build while intending to be a buff. If they lower the cost of Tiamat any more, it'll become a must buy on junglers. This isn't inherently bad but I feel it's at the price point where there's a good amount of choice.
: Fighter Items on PBE for 8.12
Atmas returns! Mundo's going to love this. Trundle too and quite a few others. I'm looking forward to trying it. Wasn't this initially removed because you feared the combination of tankiness + damage? What changed to make it easier to balance? Is it because ADCs will be stronger vs late game tanks anyway in 8.11? BTW: Why are the Hydra items being nerfed and made less slot efficient? Those are core for a fighter's late game. If you just want them to be cheaper, why aren't we getting 35g per AD lost or at least 30ish?
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Mundo PBE Nerfs A Bit Much
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrMundoMains/comments/8h7p6y/how_strong_is_mundo_after_the_buffs/ These are thoughts from Mundo mains that I thought were interesting.
: Marksman and AD Itemization Changes coming to PBE shortly
Will Corki get compensation for the Fleet Footwork nerf? He has underperformed in all roles ever since the AD/level nerf. He's not even strong at the high MMRs or competitive and even his late game doesn't score exceptionally well. I might try Lethal Tempo on him but he already has a weak laning phase even as is and he doesn't stack enough AD to make Electrocute attractive. Press the Attack is also awkward because of his low AS making it hard to proc., especially if you weave in abilities. Another problem I have with Corki is his insane vulnerability to AD mid assassins like Talon or Zed. Vs burst assassins like Katarina or Fizz, he can go the mini hexdrinker rune or buy some MR. What to do vs Talon though? No item fits well. GA's just not up enough, Ninja Tabi have been nerfed in armor and Corki REALLY wants the Mpen from Sorcs too. I guess he can go Zhonya's but his AP ratios were gutted so it doesn't seem all that viable either. There's nothing like Hexdrinker vs physical damage. Seeker's Armguard is a little like that but only attractive for champions stacking AP. One Cloth Armor is certainly not enough for the slot and buying GA is a bit hard due to the 1300g requirement but I know people will say "go Stopwatch." Ok, then what? I don't die once and then I have no Stopwatch. He will have his R up in another minute and a half. It's like with GA. The CDs are just not aligned so it's basically guaranteed death if the AD mid gets just a little fed from one roam bot lane etc. The one thing that has somewhat helped is to go Resolve secondary with Bone Plating and Chrysalis while also building an early Vamp Scepter + Cloth Armor and running Bloodline so that I am generally above 75% HP in lane. It's still a mess to make that many sacrifices vs them but I don't play AD mid assassins so perhaps I am being biased. Still, it's infinitely harder than when playing an AP mid vs them. Seeker's Armguard is effective even to just sit on and very accessible. Zhonya's pretty much negates all AD assassins when you have it up if you use it correctly. Lastly, it seems that ADCs as a whole are getting less armor but more health. Since Corki does primarily magic damage, this also hurts him both when roaming to kill bot and when actually attempting to be a bot laner. BTW: Why are my posts defaulting to a score of zero? I don't even get downvoted a lot normally.
: I hear flashes nonstop
I had that too on PBE in the training mode once. I can't reproduce it though.
: New Runic Echoes - Missing the MS
One thing to consider is that without any mana on Runic Echoes, there is a bit of anti-synergy with CDR. CDR lets you spam more spells but without a proper mana pool, that goes to waste. If it were just MS, then a secondary mana item like Abyssal, RoA, IBG etc. would probably become meta. That way you can utilize the CDR better and also potentiate it with more CDR. CDR tends to be a stat with break points (such as when you can get 2 rotations in for a fight) and that works increasingly better the more you have. I'm having a really hard time giving a real recommendation on how this item should be. Most jungle players probably do enjoy the MS more though. Mana definitely pushes it away from champs like AP shyv, Rumble etc. but is that really such a big cost if it otherwise opens up more champions and flexibility elsewhere in builds? While I think the MS is stronger and feels better when ahead or with sufficient planning, having mana on the item would open up more second item choices and make it less costly to give blue buff too. I prefer the MS for sure but it might be that just raw mana would do more to help JG diversity. MS also in a way penalizes weak early game junglers harder when they face strong ones who are snowballing lanes and then invading with a completed runic faster. Maybe the ideal is to offer a bit of both mana and MS (let's say 3% MS).
: Mundo is one of the strongest top laners right now on Live with the fourth highest winrate (52.75%) and the seventh highest playrate (3.28%). He also isn't that hard to play, with champion.gg showing his mastery curve is very short (winrate by games played doesn't change that much). For someone as strong as Live Mundo currently is, he shouldn't be that easy. These nerfs should bring him down to around a 49%-50% winrate, which is balanced.
> [{quoted}](name=Joseph Kanaan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=dmN3INtI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:32:52.997+0000) > > Mundo is one of the strongest top laners right now on Live with the fourth highest winrate (52.75%) and the seventh highest playrate (3.28%). He also isn't that hard to play, with champion.gg showing his mastery curve is very short (winrate by games played doesn't change that much). > > For someone as strong as Live Mundo currently is, he shouldn't be that easy. These nerfs should bring him down to around a 49%-50% winrate, which is balanced. It's still a small sample but he's at 52.6% now in Plat+ and that's not so unusual, especially for an easier champion (lower skill floor = harder to mess up and thus higher winrate even in a balanced state). Singed has had a 53% winrate for many patches and has a comparable pick rate. I don't see him as being OP either. I don't think Mundo's OP if people play well vs him and also buy Grievous Wounds. Winrates mean little in terms of objective balance. For example, WW had a high winrate and wasn't objectively strong (bad WWs also don't drag the winrate down as much as for other champs). If he were OP, you'd see him have a higher than 1.5% ban rate in KR and you'd see him used in competitive. It was a nerf just because SQ players outside of KR aren't good enough to understand him. The patch notes on WW didn't even make sense. They were saying he had a good clear when he actually has slow clears pre-Tiamat and can't even do Raptors properly (which makes his pathing exploitable and predictable). Maybe I'm wrong but this is the first time Mundo's been viable in months for either role. People might just not be playing around his spikes well or itemizing properly. I'm not totally against those R changes but I think they are too much without some kind of compensation elsewhere. I'm guessing that if those go live, he'll be yet again bad at both roles and sub 50% winrate
Rioter Comments
: i think with the changes to {{item:1039}} we dont really need the mana on runic... but i do REALLY wish we could keep the movement speed i would love 10% cdr and my 7% movement speed 20% cdr is nice and all, but i can get 10% cdr really easy... the movement speed is a LOT harder to come by
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=i7dOAcvy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-04T15:30:41.489+0000) > > i think with the changes to {{item:1039}} we dont really need the mana on runic... > but i do REALLY wish we could keep the movement speed > > i would love 10% cdr and my 7% movement speed > > 20% cdr is nice and all, but i can get 10% cdr really easy... the movement speed is a LOT harder to come by I think if they were to keep the MS, AP junglers would definitely be back. MS is especially nice on Fiddlesticks or melee junglers such as Gragas, Amumu, Ekko and Diana. After Amumu Qs (which itself is helped by MS), he wants to keep you in his W. Some of these would have preferred Runeglaive more but that's too niche. For example Fiddlesticks or Karthus JG certainly don't want that. MS is a great stat on everyone. I suppose mana is more targetted to help AP burst junglers because defensive itemization tends to have mana items such as IBG, Abyssal or FH. This makes some sense but the burst AP junglers also benefit more from MS than the tanks because they depend more on snowballing as well as getting in/out cleanly. Overall though, mana likely helps those stacking raw AP more. BTW: As far as Amumu goes, it would be nice to have some other minor interactions in his kit for skilled players. WW for example has a fairly basic kit but actually a ton of little tricks and outplay potential. As much as I disagree with the nerf direction and severity, his kit is well designed. It's like poker. Easy to play, hard to master perfectly.
: I'd rather the mana be removed completely and added more to the mana regen in the ludens proc honestly. That way non-mana reliant AP champions would also be able to use the item assuming it got something else in it's place.
> [{quoted}](name=Voracious,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=i7dOAcvy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-04T08:51:46.130+0000) > > I'd rather the mana be removed completely and added more to the mana regen in the ludens proc honestly. That way non-mana reliant AP champions would also be able to use the item assuming it got something else in it's place. Hah, yeah. I suppose Rumble JG isn't too fond of 300 mana.
: i would honestly rater just add the 10% CDR and keep my 7%movement speed, most ap jungler like movement speed anyways. its ganna suck losing that 7%
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=yVLVPBjP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-03T19:17:45.843+0000) > > i would honestly rater just add the 10% CDR and keep my 7%movement speed, > most ap jungler like movement speed anyways. its ganna suck losing that 7% I feel the same way but I do take the first two Blues!
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Straniu,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:40:33.615+0000) > > I never said he was weak early and even explicitly stated that his early ganks were too strong for most SQ players to deal with. People just don't change their playstyle much even when spam pinged. If they just wait out his early aggression, he wouldn't be a problem at all. However, even to this day, people frequently die top to his super predictable level 3 gank. WW can't farm well without Tiamat so Raptors aren't an option and given his kit, it's pretty clear that he wants to gank early on rather than powerfarm. > > I actually agree that nerfing early and buffing late is the way to go. I think this would maintain viability across ELOs while putting a larger clamp on his performance in mid and low tiers. mb I probably misread your post when I wrote that you said WW was weak early, apologies on that. Though I agree that WW needs some balancing, but the current changes are simply straight up gutting him, whereas he needs a weaker early game and a stronger late game. Another thing that can be very powerful on WW is his ability to counter jngl without losing too much health, giving him the ability to even fight the enemy jngler if he/she shows up. A lot of jnglers are relatively low on their first clear, but not WW. I hope they put him in the right direction, and not just straight up put him out of the meta.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T00:16:32.416+0000) > > mb I probably misread your post when I wrote that you said WW was weak early, apologies on that. Though I agree that WW needs some balancing, but the current changes are simply straight up gutting him, whereas he needs a weaker early game and a stronger late game. Another thing that can be very powerful on WW is his ability to counter jngl without losing too much health, giving him the ability to even fight the enemy jngler if he/she shows up. A lot of jnglers are relatively low on their first clear, but not WW. I hope they put him in the right direction, and not just straight up put him out of the meta. We're basically on the same page. The real issue with WW in SQ is his early snowballing + Tiamat timing. The Q nerf is placebo for the phase that actually frustrates players facing WW. It'll have no effect pre-6 and people will probably just have to max W first completely now. Late game you'll be at a larger disadvantage than normal but WW's late game 5v5 was not strong to begin with. This will feel worse for WW players (especially if they have more difficulty closing out with a well-earned lead) but it won't be very noticeable to enemies. I think his winrate will take a .7% hit or so from such a change but possibly less if some people who don't main WW just read about it and give up on him. He's a single target duelist champion so he should be decent at snowballing (his healing helps him maintain his leads too) but clearly his W is too much for SQ players at most MMRs. This will always lead to artificially high winrates even though the champion isn't actually OP. If Riot wants to stop this kind of whining, he needs to be tweaked not nerfed. Or if it is a nerf, it should be just delaying his power spike a bit. Objectively, he isn't OP so this is why a straight Q nerf seems wrong to me. It not only doesn't address the issue causing his higher winrate (which isn't itself necessarily a balance issue), but it also isn't what's causing the complaining. Meanwhile, it makes him less viable at the highest MMRs and especially in competitive where games drag on longer. Essentially, the change in no way addresses the issue while also narrowing his viability across MMRs (dooming him to a mid MMR and lower champion). If it has little effect (as I predict), it'll probably lead to even more undeserved nerfs and a further reduction in WW's viability across MMRs. Kha'Zix will nearly always be picked over him in Diamond+ and he's already a better champion even now despite the lower winrate.
: WW weak early ? He is one of the best early junglers there is. He has insane lifesteal when clearing camps (so no gold wasted in pots, instead going for the first tiamat component, making it very easy to get it later, making his clear even faster), he has AS depending on target's current HP, a healing Q that heals based on missing health, a damage reduction E that follows up on a CC, and a movement speed spell that lets you chase low enemies without wasting flash, all that at only lvl 3. He is very powerful early on, but falls off as the game goes. On the contrary, nerfing his early while buffing his late is good, which corresponds to the first balance they did on him, but this second change is straight up just gutting him.
> [{quoted}](name=Belial Lucifer,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=xsjNBT8J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:24:03.349+0000) > > WW weak early ? He is one of the best early junglers there is. He has insane lifesteal when clearing camps (so no gold wasted in pots, instead going for the first tiamat component, making it very easy to get it later, making his clear even faster), he has AS depending on target's current HP, a healing Q that heals based on missing health, a damage reduction E that follows up on a CC, and a movement speed spell that lets you chase low enemies without wasting flash, all that at only lvl 3. He is very powerful early on, but falls off as the game goes. On the contrary, nerfing his early while buffing his late is good, which corresponds to the first balance they did on him, but this second change is straight up just gutting him. I never said he was weak early and even explicitly stated that his early ganks were too strong for most SQ players to deal with. People just don't change their playstyle much even when spam pinged. If they just wait out his early aggression, he wouldn't be a problem at all. However, even to this day, people frequently die top to his super predictable level 3 gank. WW can't farm well without Tiamat so Raptors aren't an option and given his kit, it's pretty clear that he wants to gank early on rather than powerfarm. I actually agree that nerfing early and buffing late is the way to go. I think this would maintain or even expand his viability across ELOs while putting a larger clamp on his performance in mid and low tiers. If they're going to change him at all, it should be in a way that nerfs him in SQ but makes him more viable for the highest tiers and especially competitive, where he struggles so much that he isn't even seriously considered. If he's just nerfed with no other kit changes, all it does is hurt him in SQ without doing anything positive for him in the brackets where he clearly has issues. On the other hand, if he's too strong in SQ, of course he can't be buffed to be viable in competitive since SQ players would just pull their hair out and swear at Riot before they adjusted their play. This is why I think it would be a good idea to essentially gut his W early (the main reason he's strong) but bring some more power late game. The old PBE changes seemed good to me but a bit too conservative on the W nerf. BTW: With a large W nerf, it also makes WW more of an invading jungler. He'd be trying to duel his counterpart because dueling would still be good even if his ganks suffered. Admittedly, he wouldn't be a very safe counter jungler and would probably aim more to just get a few extra camps for Tiamat as he rushes level 6.
Rioter Comments
: Seraph's Nerf - Not Consistent With Item Identity
I just realized that this only affects AA's and NOT Seraph's. In that case, it is a good change and a smart way of nerfing it! You guys are on a roll with the balance stuff lately. 8.7 was a great patch too. Among other things, I liked how Ninja Tabi were nerfed for raw armor vs general physical damage but their identity was tightened as an anti auto attacker item. The changes to Resolve were also very much like I'd have wanted too. Now, just don't overdo Lux & Vi buffs. :P
: Math of Archangel's Passive Awe Change
Even if the math were to show it wasn't gutted, I think it's the wrong direction. It's supposed to be a big ticket scaling item that you need to stack. To maintain that identity, the stacking mechanic can be slowed, the shield can be further reduced/made less available or the cost can be increased. It shouldn't be brought back closer to a mid tier item. I explained my thoughts [here](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/QqEuTIc8-seraphs-nerf-not-consistent-with-item-identity).
Show more

Straniu

Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion