: Sure https://imgur.com/a/LnkZL
Thanks so much! So I think this is functioning as expected, the % armor increase from the runes increase your base and bonus armor by the %, but the amount that it increases the base armor by is NOT considered bonus armor, just more base armor. So, if you look at your base armor (the blue number) its about 5 armor higher than malphite's normal base armor would be at level 4, which accounts for the difference in your math there. We're looking to convert all total % stat increases to function like this in the future, as we did with Gargoyle Stoneplate. For the champions with % armor increases (malphite, rammus, etc), we'll likely do some work to make sure they still have cool interactions with Iceborne Gauntlet and other things that scale exclusively off bonus armor.
: My understanding is that a single minion can only absorb up to a maximum of 5 projectiles (Think like Ashe Volley, where in that case if you were point blank you could eat most of the arrows but take no additional damage), so if you hit a melee minion point blank, It could eat a maximum of 5 of the "projectiles" that make up the blood ring, down from 7. What you're saying is that if minions as a whole eat 5 of the 20 total projectiles (I've counted), would the rest pass through any other minions to hit champions behind them, right?* *(Attempting to clarify the opinion of the parent comment, this is not how I understand the ability :P)
5 max per minion, so if you're somehow perfectly trapped in a point-blank rectangle of 4 minions, put in just the right places, they could conceivably block all 20 missiles.
: A question about hemoplague heal for the sake of clarity, is the amount healed mitigated by defenses like spellvamp? Or will I receive the full amount per target regardless? if it is mitigated, then we'll probably be pulling some pretty low numbers even on a 5 man ult, especially with the (crippling) changes to grevious wounds. I played on PBE today and wow, 8 seconds is a long time. We disengaged a fight, I ran off to heal up at wolves as per usual and just about died due to that reduction.
The amount of heal is NOT mitigated by defenses, so no need for that void staff to heal for 2k ;)
: I just went in to check for myself, and it definitely heals you when someone dies, but it isn't immediate. I don't know if this is intended, or if it was just PBE lag, but there is a ~0.5 second delay between killing an enemy champion and receiving HP from the ult.
Precise observation! The missile carrying the heal has a 0.4 second travel time. I'm impressed your estimate was so close haha.
: How do you feel about having the ult give 50% (or something) of the regular healing if a target dies before 4 seconds? Having to choose between potentially life saving healing and killing an enemy now seems like a lose lose situation. There's a huge disconnect with a damage amp making it faster for your team to kill someone but you wanting them to live a little longer so you get health back.
> [{quoted}](name=B1gpoop,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=geVackqi,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2016-04-21T05:16:30.184+0000) > > How do you feel about having the ult give 50% (or something) of the regular healing if a target dies before 4 seconds? Having to choose between potentially life saving healing and killing an enemy now seems like a lose lose situation. There's a huge disconnect with a damage amp making it faster for your team to kill someone but you wanting them to live a little longer so you get health back. It's intended that when a champion with Hemoplague dies, they trigger the heal immediately! If this is not working, that's a bug, so please let me know :D
: MYMU - Vladimir Discussion
Posted this at the top, but throwing it in a comment to bump: --edit 4/21. 2:50 PM PDT: -- * Hey all! In response to the feedback on E's hit/blockability, I've just got some changes in for tomorrow's PBE build: * Maximum missiles blocked by minions 7 >>> 5 * Missiles additionally deal their damage to neighboring minions within a small, 'under-the-hood' aoe around the target * Tooltip updated for clarity, now includes mention of the blocking mechanic * Target ting indicator updated to look more like Ashe Volley (shows lines for each missile) * These changes should make some feelable improvements when using E near a minion wave and add some additional clarity to what the ability does. No tuning changes yet, but still keeping an eye on his Q's tuning, as there are some reports of healing / damage being lower than expected. -- Thanks again for all the feedback guys! --
: Vlad's updated Q
Yeah, all Q's will build his meter, even the empowered ones!
: Does Vladimirs E still deal damage when interrupted/canceled with Fear,Silence,Taunt,...?
: Got the screenshots! [Projectile Count (20 Total)](http://i.imgur.com/uClrw5o.jpg) [Point Blank (1)](http://i.imgur.com/HTAI4o9.jpg) [Point Blank (2)](http://i.imgur.com/sLQ6qC6.jpg) Likely working as intended, due it it's similarity to Ashe's Volley, but it's a major source of frustration, being too close to a minion when you cast this and it resulting in ~33% of the AoE being nullified is really annoying. [Examples](http://i.imgur.com/fPrn0UI.jpg) [of frustrating](http://i.imgur.com/C8M3X6q.jpg) [or wierd](http://i.imgur.com/8GfpiN7.jpg) [happenings](http://i.imgur.com/Bk78WnD.jpg) I hope these were helpful (Blood Lord Skin seemed to have the best visuals to identify this stuff when I was looking)
HOLY you're the best. Thanks so much! This might require some black magic to get working as expected, but I'll do what I can.
: Hey Stashu, just tried Vlad out on PBE. I really like what you did with him; his gameplay *feels* powerful and fun, with a lot more interactivity than before, and all without taking the easy route of turning his spells into skillshots. I'm impressed. One thing I'm curious about is his Q; IIRC the old issue was that there wasn't really much thought into using it; you used it whenever it was up. There is slightly more planning possible in using his Q now, with how you want to save your third stack to deal more damage, but it still feels like you want to burn it on anything you can get your hands on since the duration to use it is pretty short. I'm not really sure about it; on one hand, it feels like there's more thought into planning on getting your third proc at the right moment to get a good trade with your opponent, but on the other hand, it feels like you just want to use it on cooldown even more than before.
Hey ProfBeefCake! One of the major problems with old transfusion was that Vlad could just sit on it -- so, whenever an enemy was nearby, he would hit them for 'free' damage. Seeing this, I identified two possible ways to fix the problem: (1) Attack the 'free' part, and make it dodge-able, and (2) attack the 'sit on it part,' adding incentives to keep Q on cooldown and give the opponent time to breathe or ready a counterattack. The gameplay for (2) already existed *to some degree*, as Vladimir tended to cast it on CD for the health, but it was very difficult to appreciate (mostly only very high leveled players could grasp how to play around it), and not particularly engaging for the opponent. By making that aspect of the ability appreciable for both Vlad and the opponent, we could create meaningful counterplay that played off the existing Vladimir kit. And that's what led me here - now Vlad *always* wants to cast Q to fuel his Crimson Rush, giving him a game-changing moment to shoot, and while he does that, leaving his opponents with windows of opportunity.
: I just played a couple of games on "New" Vlad, and honestly I'm extremely disappointed, he is the weakest feeling champion I have ever played since starting in season 3. The visual effect of the new E is amazing, you really feel like you're about to explode in bloody fury, the effect of the new E, is the most disheartening thing I've ever experienced playing this game. It's impossible to tell where exactly the particles will come from as you charge it. It can be blocked by stepping behind a minion and its so expensive to use, that when it doesn't even clear the backline of casters, your just left wondering why you even used the ability over auto attacking. His Q feels like a weaker version of his old one, the window on Crimson Rush is so short that its easily played around, and the attempt to try and get the extra healing from hitting a champ often requires you to overextend in lane. In addition the healing on his un-charged Q is so un-impactiful. Vlad, to me, is about sustain and sustained damage, and despite that the best item in the game for him has been removed, I've tried running Spell vamp quints and taking the mastery and the defensive mastery that increases healing, and I still end up feeling like I need to buy a Hextech Gunblade, which has sub optimal stats for Vlad, and locks you out of using the Protobelt, which has great stats for Vlad, except no sustain at all for him. In fact there is no Health Sustain AP item that isn't tied into mana truly left in the game as Gunblade really should be for Hybrid Characters. I understand the point you made of Spell Vamp hurting the balance side of things, but it's not like Mana based mages don't build sustain for their resource, why should Vlad be kept from doing the same? I really hope you re-look at this update, it destroyed what I loved about Vlad, a late game hypercarry splitpusher brusier mage. The Master of Sustain, I really loved the pinnacle moments of power after leaving a team fight at 200 health, using E on a minion wave and regaining 1-2k health back. I understood that I had to pay the price of needing many items, but it was okay, because at least by lvl 9 with a WoTA I could safely farm as long as I didn't overextend, basically a AP Nasus, with about the same effect late game, split push, tp in for team fights.
Sounds like you've experienced E's cost to far outweigh the healing on the kit. The last thing I want is for Vladimir to be weak, especially as it relates to his healing! We took a stab at accounting for the lack of spellvamp by making his empowered Q and R healing high, but admittedly we may not have gone far enough. There has been a lot of similar feedback from others as well, and I won't hesitate more healing to LoL's premiere healing mage, but I'd like to see if still feels that way after people adjust to the new healing paradigm.
: I already made a separate post for this, but I guess if you're checking this thread I'll summarize for you. This is coming from someone who's played an upwards of 1500-2000 Vlad games since the beginning. He's my favorite Champion so It's important to me that this gets done right. * Q's flat healing on crimson rush is incredibly strong, lane sustain has never been easier and it may be over-tuned despite what others are saying. I assume the idea behind it is that opponents are meant to watch for Crimson rush and deny the enhanced damage/healing, but unless you restrict it to champions people will complain about it constantly on live until it's nerfed. * E's lack of piercing projectiles are incredibly awkward and frustrating, the fact that one minion or champion can block 3-4 projectiles of the nova makes aiming it really awkward. It's not at all what I pictured when I initially read the notes. * Due to the short charge time, there isn't much of a decision between charging a little or a lot, even with the slow (Which I believe swifties partially mitigates) If I'm not under half health, I'll usually be full charging it at all times. * Changes to the AP and HP scaling on E as well as the passive conversion has made AP incredibly unattractive versus health. I've had all of my success with Rylai/Liandry and defensive health items rather than building more AP on top of that. It's just not worth it for the return to be a squishy mage anymore. 10% of max HP is just a huge damage source that I can't ignore. * The hitbox doesn't match the current animation at Max range * The In game tooltip won't update the damage contribution from health until skilled up. * During lane I've barely needed hemoplague, as 3rd Q and E's damage has been more than enough to destroy opponents, even more so with health favored builds which further strengthens Sanguine pool. Given the lack of extra targets and the poor AP scaling, there isn't much reason to use it outside of team fights. Late game I feel the health returned won't matter much against a team building defenses due to mitigation, even on all 5. Here's my suggestion, Tides of Blood doesn't feel like it has a very big payoff on the charge time, Maybe extend the time we can charge it, and retune the damage for the first second, and as a result let it pierce all targets. That way there's a point to using it during Sanguine pool's slow and no more awkward minion block. I do think you should look at the numbers on Q and R and maybe move things around a bit more, I heard the direction was to be a mage with a focus on damage, If it went to live like this, there will be nothing but tank builds barring Rylai/Liandry.
I'll check out those hit boxes -- does it seem like the missiles fall a bit short, or long? On Tides of Blood -- Our original model was actually very similar to your suggestion! We ended up here for a few reasons, but the biggest of which is that when Vladimir spends that much time charging up spells, he doesn't feel like Vladimir anymore -- That is, Vlad has always been a high-frequency caster, and slowing that down with big charge ups really had a lot of feel costs there. On health builds -- This is something I've been worried about. The proposed model is that while HP is good for Vlad, he NEEDS AP to make it worth it. Without AP scaling up his healing though Q and R, his large health pool should count for little with his high health costs and low healing. I expect Rylais and Protobelt to be especially good for that reason, but if he ends up building all HP beyond that, we have problems and will need to make AP proportionately more valuable.
: Really enjoying the new Vladimir, though I do have some comments that I feel should be voiced. * The Q projectile speed increase is welcome, I hated having cast Transfusion but not actually getting the healing in time for it to save me when playing Vladimir. * As annoying as the lack of significant healing is for un-empowered casts, I understand why it works that way, so I'll save my breath on it. * [Design Question: Did you consider making his heal similar to Soraka's health return on Starcall, in that it heals her over time, and if so, what made you guys decide on having it be instant? My understanding was that the heal over time effect was more fair to opponents fighting Soraka, could that not be applied to Vladimir as well to justify a little higher healing on basic casts (while possibly retaining instant healing on empowered casts)? Thanks in advance if you answer!] * Regarding Tides of Blood (E), I feel it should be mentioned that nowhere in the tooltip does it state that the nova only damages the first units it strikes in every direction (Like Ashe Volley), and it really should, as that's important information, but I'm not really certain how it would be worded. I know that it's been a major confusion point for a lot of folks ("It's broken"), and would clear things up quite a bit if that was added. * The Tides of Blood animation is extremely satisfying by the way, whoever did that needs a serious pat on the back. * I did notice when playing him that the damage radius on Tides of Blood (E) was a little shorter than the visual leads you to believe, so it would be nice to have that looked at. * Final note regarding Tides of Blood (E), when using it to clear minion waves it seems that some minions that should get hit by it, don't. I suspect this has something to do with hitboxes (If you're trying to hit a minion that is set back behind another, but offset to either side relative to you, it doesn't appear to hit when you think that it would, I think that the first minion's hit box absorbs a bit too much of the circle. Apologies if that was vague.) * Lastly, with the damage amp on his ult being reduced yet again, I echo the opinions of a few others, I'd rather just see the damage amp go all together and place that power elsewhere, as it's so difficult to notice that it may as well not be there.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown! Here's some responses: * Heal over time vs instant: Soraka's self-heal is meant to give her long-term sustain, but is not intended to be a clutch, death-defying moment (like her W/R are meant to be for allies). Vladimir's Q, especially with the new direction we've taken Crimson Q, *IS* intended to be a fight turning, death defying moment, and the tension is focused around 'can he get to mega Q in time!?' instead of 'will the regeneration be enough?!' like with Volibear or Mundo, so that's why it's instant! :D * Tides of blood non-passthrough element not mentioned in tooltip: Really struggling to explain this without adding 3 more lines of text to the tooltip. Working with wordsmiths to figure that one out, hope to get something in soon. * Visuals: Yeah, the visuals and animations on E are so badass. I'll pass that along! * Minion hit boxes: I know there's some whackiness here but I'm having trouble understanding exactly in what ways. I'd die for a screen shot with some mark-ups on it explaining how it breaks expectations, but barring that I'll be playing around with missile width and such. * damage amp: I'm mostly with you, but: the amp crucially allows Vladimir's ult to be a threatening moment without back-loading all of his R's effectiveness into the pop while also allowing him to contribute to his team's success even if he's behind. It's not sexy, but it's functional, and replacing it with something that fills the same role in an appreciable way without drastically changing the ability has proven challenging. I do, however, think it's a great place to focus on for any work on Vladimir in the future ( that, and his passive :/ ) I know not all of that is going to be 100% satisfying to hear, but I hope that at least explains how we ended up where we did!
: Hey! Thanks for this! I'm very sorry about that, updates are always intended to preserve the quality bar of the skins, and if we removed a special, skin specific vfx, then we need to add it back. I'll look into that right now and get back to you asap.
I found the bug! Cape veins should glow on the next PBE update ;)
: These changes would be great if Grievous Wounds wasn't so accessible and didn't significantly obstruct Vladimir's new sustain. I see how these changes affect Vlad. He's basically this beefy battlemage that skirts in between life and death with his monstrous sustain. His playstyle is to first go hard and get hurt, then burst heal like a madman. However, if he gets Grievous Wounded during Crimson Rush or when Hemoplague is about to pop, he just dies. Because of how absolutely ridiculous his new sustain is, players are practically guaranteed to buy Mortal Reminder to deal with him while Morellonomicon is going to be bought regardless. Hell, they can just spend 900g to get Executioner's Calling and auto win against Vladimir especially early on when he is incredibly weak. Oh yeah, his early game is extremely laughable. Before it was remedied once he bought Revolver but now he doesn't have such a fast and simple power spike. Rylai's is 2000g more expensive than the older revolver after all. His E also has a bunch of issues, but yeah Vlad feels bleh because of Grievous Wounds.
I'd buy that we've undershot his current healing amount, underestimating the strength of grevious wounds. If grevious wounds appears in the vast majority of Vladimir games (and that seems likely), then I think we can justify some balance changes targeted at increasing his healing. Please continue to keep an eye on this!
: You're absolutely right, I guess what I am trying to say is just in general, it feels as if Vlad's sustain is almost "hit and miss" when compared to champions such as Irelia, etc. This just could be an angry rant because I am bad haha but when mages rush Morellonomicon and tanks rush the typical builds top, it just feels as if Vlad gets outclassed and becomes that champ that is just kind of "there". I still have a lot of games yet to play so I am just throwing my two cents in. Do you recommend I try building more AP items to maximize my heals or is it still wise to rush tankier items such a spirit visage?
Worst Vlad NA? I don't know about that, I watched Riot Repertoire try Vlad on a dev stream yesterday, and I think he might be challenging you for that title ;) (JK REPERTOIRE, YOU'RE THE BEST). ANYWAY! Thanks for the feedback! The changes are intended to significantly increase the top-end of how much Vladimir can heal, but give the opponents more play in whether or not he can do it, so in that regard, it *is* a bit more 'hit-and-miss.' It may well be that his baseline healing is too low, as many have expressed in this thread, but I want to give him a bit more soak time before buffing baseline healing to see if this is something that can be adjusted to. As for AP vs HP, both increase your healing and damage by varying amounts, but they really work best together (AP increases the %HP you recover from Crimson Transfusion, for example), enabling Vladimir to have some dynamic build paths based on the game state -- your end game builds are going to have a lot of both AP and HP, the challenge/interest is about which to prioritize first given who you're fighting / how you want to succeed (soak more vs dps more). I suggest that if you're against a melee fighter champion and need to kite, grab a Rylais first. If you're against an assassin and need to protect yourself from burst, grab a ZGlass. If you're against a magic heavy opponent, a Visage or Abyssal rush are very powerful. Vlad's kit allows him to be flexible with his item purchases while making small damage or healing tradeoffs based on the situation.
: Bloodlord vladimir is one of my absolute favorite legendary skin. We understand that you can not update extremely old legendary skin with fresher vfx, but to remove some of them is even a worse act... Bloodlord vladimir signature effect is the glow of the veins in his cape whenever he Q's, but now it gone... I hope it's a bug... If not, please return the vfx
Hey! Thanks for this! I'm very sorry about that, updates are always intended to preserve the quality bar of the skins, and if we removed a special, skin specific vfx, then we need to add it back. I'll look into that right now and get back to you asap.
: My thoughts after a couple games. His Q feels so weak unless it's empowered. Like, bad weak. His early game is even worse than it used to be because of it and any opponent who knows this is going to rip him apart. I'd prefer the passive to be every other use but have it do less, or just bring back the normal heal. Why does everyone have to have these weird and annoying "counterplay" windows attached to everything? His new E is insanely frustrating. His wave clear is so much worse now, and yes I've lined it up to hit the whole wave. He just can't clear well at all anymore. He has to commit so hard to being up close, it feels bad when it straight out misses on people and minions who didn't even try to dodge it. Maybe give it slightly bigger hitbox detection, idk, but it just feels bad. His E cost completely outweighs the huge Q heal. To the point that you could remove both and he would be the exact same. That feels _**really**_ bad when you are supposed to be a sustain mage. He should really gain a heal on his E hitting champions, that'd probably offset the huge cost and make trading worthwhile earlier than 30 minutes. His ult feels really unrewarding. I know you took power out of it so he could gain that power elsewhere, but it feels negligible to hit. His direction talk had you saying he would be "the" sustain mage, but he barely feels as such. Yeah Q is a huge heal late game, but you won't ever get there with how weak and counter-able you are the rest of the game. He feels like he doesn't do anything other mages can't do. He seems to be back in the spot where you'd only bring him if he does more damage. He isn't going to shove a lane down your throat and 1v2 everyone you send there. he isn't going to out sustain most champions. he isn't going to he uncatchable. He feels bad.
Hey Kelta, I'm sorry you had a bad time, thanks for sharing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of your frustrations here seem aimed at the current tuning (E cost too much, Q heals too little, R deals too little damage). It could well be that he's undertuned -- he's undergone a lot of change and his balance level at the moment is our best approximation. If Vladimir is weak, where would you most like to see more power allocated? Based on your feedback above, it seems like unempowered Q healing is particularly lackluster, is that right?
: That's just it though. In direct execution of his Q, that's already mitigated. The issue is Vlad building such an immense amount of health that the percentiles outweigh each other. He can bait you with his Q downtime, charge E almost instantly to slap you in the face, and then Q that health back while you flounder back because you lost to that imminent magecrit heal. He deals damage. That's fine. He just deals too much too quickly to be healthy, in my opinion.
Thanks for raising the flag here. I expect to make some balance changes before release, and there's a good chance E's numbers will be touched, but I want to wait and see a bit more before making a call one way or another here. Please keep this sort of feedback coming!
: or you just made his build path feel crappy because he's now forced to buy this item where half the stats aren't even that great
to clarify: If it turns out that the hybrid AP/AD item is the best item for Vlad because of it's healing passive, we'll need to make some changes. AP/HP items are what *should* feel good on Vlad, and if they don't, that's a red flag.
: Could you make his resource bar go to 100 or 200 instead of just 2? It would make it easier to see it tick down when time is running out instead of the big skips. Overall he seems a lot more fluid now. Glad Spellvamp is gone so you can better balance his kit now. Curious to see how he does in real games.
Wrestling with this issue at the moment, as I agree that the big skips looks whacky. Truthfully, his resource bar isn't a resource indicator, but a stack counter and a cooldown indicator, so it feels awkward to give him 100 resource which is not consumed by any of his abilities. I'm not sure what the right call is here, but if there's a lot of pushback against the 2 count, 200 might be the right call.
: Adding meaningful counterplay is a good thing to do in the light of what Vladimir is (or rather was) like pre update. But i also want to add that gameplay for Vladimir himself is important. I dont want to lose 9/10 lanematchups because my champion has to be deliberately kept down in the wake of being a nightmare when he is strong, which is the case on live servers. (Edit: Wording unclear - I mean that he is deliberately kept at a subpar level on live servers, not that he is strong) And historically you have been pushing these champions to be late game hyper carries with an atrocious laning phase to justify their existance. Poppy was that case. And "guys, i scale" i not something you can say in games nowadays.
Yep, that's the problem in a nutshell, well said. This, alongside increasing satisfaction, was the focus of what we were looking to solve with these mechanical changes -- it should now be healthy and acceptable for Vladimir to be stronger in lane because of the added play (he doesn't 'autowin' when he's strong, or at least he shouldn't if we did it right!).
: You'd better believe it! {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:4}}
Also, R can be cast during E to release it, and the R damage amp debuff will be applied before the E missile launch (best of luck with that one, it requires some surprisingly nimble finger work to charge E, flash, and then R before the E goes off).
: Hi, i have a question, can you flash while charging your E?
You'd better believe it! {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:4}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Stashu,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=geVackqi,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-04-19T22:21:41.891+0000) > > Hey! thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. You have some good points, and I'd like to speak to these concerns in particular: > > Ult: Agreed that the damage amp is numbers-y and unsatisfying. We've pulled as much power out of that as we could without making it strategically insignificant (the amp is weaker and lost 20% of it's duration), so that Vladimir still contributes something to his team other than being a solo carry. As for satisfaction, the heal was intended to provide the bulk of the feeling there, and I'm sorry to hear that it's not. If you've played with it already, could you speak more to your dissatisfaction with it? I.e: Does the heal feel unimpactful, does it fail provide the tension/clutch saves it promises, etc. > > Passive/scaling: It seems like your big concern is how the math here will make Vladimir difficult to balance, and thus always shoe'd into a bad place. Crimson Pact is a gold muliplier, but with careful tuning, I believe the problems you outline can be minimized (i.e, higher bases and lower ratios than your average champ, but more stats with gold to come out neutral) while still preserving the unique item builds it incentives and allowing Vladimir to have a reasonable power curve. That said, I agree it's far from the most exciting passive out there, but we felt there were bigger gains for satisfaction and excitement to be found in the Q,E, and R. First of all, thank you for the reply. So far I haven't gotten to play with Vladimir yet and will first be able to this the weekend. That said perhaps I am being needlessly harsh with the ultimate. My grievance is mostly with the amplification effect and just giving sustain feels like a token change to me as opposed to one that is actually intent on dealing with the very stat based nature of the live iteration which is probably not the way I should be looking at it. From the numbers I feel like this added sustain can have a more than significant impact provided one hits enough champions. Maybe what I would like to see is if the effect was a bit more noticeable. From the preview video on the mage update site the particles look perhaps a bit small/weak and making them a bit more pronounced would help increase the feeling of "I have just drained you of all your life." instead of being more "I've taken a tiny sip, don't mind me." So currently this feedback is very much more from a visual perspective than an actual effect perspective on the ultimate. Once I get to try it out for myself I will add how it felt from a gameplay point of view.
I really appreciate the thoughtful response! The particles on the ultimate are a little light, admittedly, but to put things in perspective: * At lvl 11 with 200 AP, his ult will heal him for between 200(meh) and 1000(!!!!), based on the number of champions hit * With the increased healing mastery and spirit visage, we're talking up to 1330, and that's at rank 2 with 200 AP. So the high end is intentionally pretty high, and while he'll rarely get 5-man ults, the healing is supposed to be BIG in even 2 or 3 man situations. This is meant to be a really big turnaround moment for Vladimir, and the majority of that power is going to come from the heal. If this doesn't manifest, I'd look to make some changes (options include buffing or transferring power from elsewhere, or a mechanical change like: higher heals from a single target with diminishing but still relevant returns on hitting more targets)
: Passive: It is not about the tuning at all, it is about the lack of meaningful gameplay (aside from Q > Q > E > Q trades with the new Vladimir). Less gameplay options means that you naturally have to over-stat a champion for the champion to have a contribution to temfights and such (Does Irelia ring a bell? Her E is literally "if i have more stats then you, then you cant really escape, if you have more stats then me then you cant trade"). And making a champion so reliant on stats to win turns them into bad and barely playable picks. If they get buffed, they become overbearing, if they get nerfed, they fall out of favor, both in competitive and normal play. When you made the direction post i called it and i will continue to call it: If Vladimir gets played, then it is because the initial balancing might be very forgiving for players but when he gets tuned down he will drop in playrate.
I hear what you're saying, but I'd like to point out that stats don't mean anything on their own. That is, Having all the AP in the world means everything if you can press Karthus R, but it might not mean much if you have to land a challenging skill shot. When there's little gameplay, the stats can't add much power and be healthy, because the opponent can't do anything to avoid the increased power. When there's rich gameplay, however, the increased stats *can* add more payoff, because the opponent can always outplay. Nidalee's Q get's to scale hard with AP because it has counterplay, whereas old Vlad's Q was not allowed to scale hard with AP because it lacked counterplay. Vladimir's passive does admittedly turn stats into more stats, and so his kit's gameplay needs to carry a heavy burden. Empowered Q and charged E are desinged to have meaninful counterplay and thus benefit from higher ratios and stats without becoming overbearing (by contrast, vanilla Q and snapcast E have far lower ratios). In addition, Vladimir has a built-in limiter on stat efficiency with his high %HP costs form W and E, so even though he gets free stats, they mean far less on him than the would on other champions because of his particular mechanics. That's the idea anyway! If we've succeeded in adding meaningful counterplay in Q and E and maintaining meaningful limiters through his high costs, that the stats problem should not manifest.
: Just to make sure all my calculations are correct : When you say "Base Health" it means Health at level 1 with no masteries/runes/items ? And when you say "Health growth factor", it means the number of HP gained by level after level 1 (e.g. level 2, Vlad with no masteries/runes/items is supposed to have 550 + 84 HP) ? Am I correct ? Edit : Considering the above affirmations, I have discrepencies between PBE and calculations :/ First, is there a simpler way to talk other than via this forum ? (only to share calculations without copy/pasting huge chunks of text :D) Twitter would be cool :) (not asking for a mail or such xD) To keep things simple : At lvl 9, with only Rabaddon as an item, masteries at 12/0/18 (relevant ones being Veteran Scars and Natural Talent) and %Health runes (seals + quints), I find : - on PBE, 1440 HP, 180 AP - in my calculations 1486 HP (rounded up, real number is 1485.92542), 181 AP (also rounded up, real number being 180.67212) Passive values look incorrect, but my reasoning may be flawed. Also note that I used one iteration considering Rabaddon's passive (using the 35% AP given by Rabaddon to increase the HP gained via passive). This HP should then be applied to %Health runes, and then giving more AP, etc. (I gave an algorithm on the previous topic I quoted in my first post, with a stop when the difference between 2 iterations is inferior to 0.01) I hope I'm making myself clear ^^
Okay I did my own experimenting, and this is what I found: At lvl 9 with no runes/masteries, Vladimir has 1117 health. With natural talent, Vlad gets ~ +7 AP, and with veterans scars+9% health (for +149 hp total), he gets an addtional 6 ap from his passive. With deathcap, that's (120* 1.35)+(13 * 0.35) more AP = 166. So, total health should be [1117 (base) + 45 (veteran's scars) + 7 ( hp from natural talent's AP) + 166 (hp from deathcap's AP)] *1.09 (veteran's scars), which would bring it tooooo....1455. I see 1440 in game, which leaves 15 HP unaccounted for here. Agreed, it would seem veteran's scars is not multiplying the bonus health from Vlad's passive, as that would neatly explain it ( [166 + 7]*0.09 = ~15). I'll check it out!
: Just to make sure all my calculations are correct : When you say "Base Health" it means Health at level 1 with no masteries/runes/items ? And when you say "Health growth factor", it means the number of HP gained by level after level 1 (e.g. level 2, Vlad with no masteries/runes/items is supposed to have 550 + 84 HP) ? Am I correct ? Edit : Considering the above affirmations, I have discrepencies between PBE and calculations :/ First, is there a simpler way to talk other than via this forum ? (only to share calculations without copy/pasting huge chunks of text :D) Twitter would be cool :) (not asking for a mail or such xD) To keep things simple : At lvl 9, with only Rabaddon as an item, masteries at 12/0/18 (relevant ones being Veteran Scars and Natural Talent) and %Health runes (seals + quints), I find : - on PBE, 1440 HP, 180 AP - in my calculations 1486 HP (rounded up, real number is 1485.92542), 181 AP (also rounded up, real number being 180.67212) Passive values look incorrect, but my reasoning may be flawed. Also note that I used one iteration considering Rabaddon's passive (using the 35% AP given by Rabaddon to increase the HP gained via passive). This HP should then be applied to %Health runes, and then giving more AP, etc. (I gave an algorithm on the previous topic I quoted in my first post, with a stop when the difference between 2 iterations is inferior to 0.01) I hope I'm making myself clear ^^
That is... mostly correct! His lvl 1 health is 550, but the growth factor is tricky. Champions get a variable amount of the growth factor by level (i.e ~70% going from lvl 1 >> lvl 2, ~125% going from lvl 17>>18, and a whole bunch of shenanigans in between for smooth power scaling)
: Working on that now (just finished patching)! Thanks for the communication, btw. You guys have handled the MYMU better than any other major project in recent memory when it comes to keeping us informed. Especially because you guys prepared us so long ago, I feel like I had enough lead time to steel my nerves for the pain of the inevitable nerf hammers.
Glad to hear it, I know that's been a weakness of ours ( particularly mine :X ) in the past ;D
: This is one update that I was looking forward to the most but probably the one that has disappointed me the most. Now I will say the changes on Q and E are not neccessarily bad. I think I can live with the Q being overall weaker, even counting that Vlad also lost the Will of the Ancients which was the item he synergized the most with and the E at the very least it feels visually quite appealing. Now what I heavily, heavily dislike are for one his passive is being kept and for another hist ultimate. The passive, I'll give it that, at the very least feels like it might fit onto a champions like Vladimir however from a design standpoint and a gameplay standpoint I find it absolutely horrible. For one this passive is merely a gold multiplicator which for Vlads gameplay means it adds nothing at all, just brings more stats which naturally leads to Vlad having a poor early game since he tends to outstat people at some point. I don't want to "win" simply by playing a numbers game where in the end it simply says "Well I had more numbers than you nice effort for trying but in the end I win." there are plenty of champions in the game which scale very well into the late stages of the game and do not simply read as "have more numbers". Azir is the best example for this. In the end he'll have the same AP, HP etc. as another champion with the same or comparable build might have but even so his kit is so well designed that he simply outscales people without turning it into a raw numbers game. Now of course I realize changing his passive has much more impact on the rest of his kit than leaving it since it **is** a huge sink in his power budget so I could have arranged myself with it if the rest of the kit had impressed me enough. The second part I very much am not okay with is the Ultimate. It's still the same ultimate of course now you've put some sustain on it, which he needs since he lost WotA, but that still doesn't keep the ability from feeling utterly unsatisfactory to use. The damage amplification is another part of the numbers game Vlad has going where during his Ult his numbers simply count as bigger numbers and personally the amplification, especially since it counts for allies, always felt like "Here have some teamfight utility Vladimir so you can feel like you add something to the fight beyond raw damage." (Seriously if that wasn't in there you might almost call him a Juggermage as the forefather of Illaoi who also has mostly damage to spread around [and yes the comparison is both unfair and not absolutely correct.]). I had hoped that the Ultimate would have turned into something that apropriately felt like a moment of power for Vladimir, something with the certain "oomph" to it. In part it might be because the ultimate is visually underwhelming and in part because, as I elaborated on, the effect feels just not very satisfying. And to circle back a bit to his passive, because his passive as a natural gold multiplier eats so much of his powerbudget he unfortunately will be stuck with abilities that are always less what they could be. Hence I would have liked to have seen the passive changed for him. There is so much potential stuck in Vladimir, so much more potential that could be realized if there wasn't this intrinsic need to insist on his passive as it is. I will repeat myself as much as I need to. His passive is a real debilitating design element and should have not been kept as part of his kit. Furthermore with the removal of spellvamp and the resulting much steeper powercurve Vladimir is facing I do no reckon this update doing exceptionally well.
Hey! thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. You have some good points, and I'd like to speak to these concerns in particular: Ult: Agreed that the damage amp is numbers-y and unsatisfying. We've pulled as much power out of that as we could without making it strategically insignificant (the amp is weaker and lost 20% of it's duration), so that Vladimir still contributes something to his team other than being a solo carry. As for satisfaction, the heal was intended to provide the bulk of the feeling there, and I'm sorry to hear that it's not. If you've played with it already, could you speak more to your dissatisfaction with it? I.e: Does the heal feel unimpactful, does it fail provide the tension/clutch saves it promises, etc. Passive/scaling: It seems like your big concern is how the math here will make Vladimir difficult to balance, and thus always shoe'd into a bad place. Crimson Pact is a gold muliplier, but with careful tuning, I believe the problems you outline can be minimized (i.e, higher bases and lower ratios than your average champ, but more stats with gold to come out neutral) while still preserving the unique item builds it incentives and allowing Vladimir to have a reasonable power curve. That said, I agree it's far from the most exciting passive out there, but we felt there were bigger gains for satisfaction and excitement to be found in the Q,E, and R.
: I guess my concern is that on Live, by late game a top Vlad becomes a split pushing menace because he can walk into the middle of any lane (absent an opposing champion) and annihilate it at no cost and still have his W available to escape. He's one of my favorite champs to split with for that reason, and I'm afraid that because of the absence of spell vamp he will no longer be able to manage waves with the kind of efficiency split pushing demands without running himself out of health.
Vladimir's solo lane pressure has always been a pretty important part of the champion, and this update should function very similarly. The idea is that if he builds up his Q, he should be able to recoup the cost from a charged E. It might take some careful management to clear a wave quickly and without cost (approach the wave with a Q in the bank, leave a minion alive after E'ing to Q it for health), but it should still be possible. If you have a chance to try it out, please let me know how it compares!
: Long time Vlad hater checking in. Gotta say, when I first saw this update I was about ready to flip some tables at how... not reworked he seemed. But actually playing him a bit on PBE and getting a better grasp on how his new abilities work changed my mind pretty quick. I'm kind of annoyed at his Q still being so... blargh, but I do appreciate that at least now there's SOME gameplay around it - he can only ~~instill me with the rage of a thousand suns~~ zone me off my creeps for 2.5 seconds instead of just all the time. The E being blocked by minions and yet also giving Vlad bigger payouts for charging it and investing more HP (and actually taking a RISK, something that I feel Live Vlad very rarely has to do) is cool for both Vlad and his opponent. If I make him blow that big blood ball and miss, I've actually made a play. And that is phenomenal, being able to "make plays" against Vlad. The heal on his ultimate is another cool thing - It's a HUGE heal if he manages to hit a lot of people. But not so much if he doesn't. All in all, I think while I still won't be lining up to take my poor hapless Jax into the Vlad matchup, this is a much better take on the character that stays true to at least some of his original concepts, so I think it's quite a good rework in that regard. Better for everyone involved. I will still be delivering the bill for 6 years of therapy necessitated from encountering Live Vlad to Riot, however.
Really glad to hear that our attempts at added counterplay are working as intended! You warm my heart. As for you medical expenses, please address all bills regarding trauma incurred from original Vladimir to Riot Ezreal .
: Hello Stashu, and already thanks a lot for your work here ! One question about Vlad's passive : has the stacking bug been corrected ? (reference : http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/fr/c/bugs/2Wc5s5vR-vladimir-crimson-pact-stacks-with-itself-wrong-life-total-calculation) I'm actually doing some testing with various setups on the PBE to check that, but I'd also like to have your insight :)
I noticed that the passive was stacking improperly and took a stab at fixing it. I believe it should be good now, but please let me know what you find!
: The suspense... Anyway, I'm very curious what his wave clear looks like with the new E. In the internal testing, how did he fare compared to live? It looks like it could be a weak spot now that item spellvamp is gone. Is that intentional?
Vladimir's E still deals HEAVY AoE damage, but it *is* harder to hit every creep in a wave, often requiring skillful positioning. When there's an opponent around, Vlad will have to think carefully about how he approaches a wave. When threat is low, however, he can walk into the middle of a wave and nuke it down ezpz.
: I was wondering, the reason spell vamp has been removed is because it was hard to balance, correct? especially on Vladimir, but... but, but, but, :P Hextech Gunblade still restores HP when dealing magic damage. Is Hextech balanced on Vlad or does it just restores him to full HP when using his E?
Spellvamp undermines health costs that are meant to gate damaging abilities (damage+spellvamp = no health cost = sad designer trying to make health costs). In combination with its stat profile, this made WotA a must have on Vladimir, and so their balance was tied to each other. Currently, there's no efficient way for Vladimir to get that vamp back, so the problem appears to be fixed. Even if Gunblade recoups the health cost of E, Vlad doesn't love its stats, so they won't be bound together and the stat will be free for other champion not balanced around health costs to enjoy. In compensation, we've added more ways for Vladimir to recover health in the new WotA-less world, but in ways that are intentional and [hopefully] fair for the opponent!
  Rioter Comments
: What is the difference between spell damage and ability damage?
The words are confusing and we plan on updating them in future patches, but for now, to clarify: The masteries that reference spell or ability damage refer to all non-true, non-proc, and non basic attack (or spell that operates as basic attack) damage. Proc is another ambiguous term, but basically it refers to low-gameplay, no cost, highly repeatable damage that is generally tacked on to other actions -- the most common example is on-hit effects, like Nashor's Tooth. Deathfire Touch is similar: since it has no cost and is easy to apply, so it counts as a proc. Brand's Ablaze, on the other hand, effectively has a cost (mana for the spells needed to cast it), and so it applies spell effects and such. Same for why Kayle's E applies spell effects, but Teemo's E passive does not, even though both of them are on-hit damage effects. Hope that helps!
: Grasp of the Undying sounds incredibly powerful. The description is quite ambiguous. Is that 3% of your maximum HP true damage?
Yeah sorry about that, we'll update that tooltip when possible. It's magic damage
: Any idea for Gnar? Would he fall under Juggernaut? My current Mastery page is this: (not new masteries) http://i.imgur.com/OM72laF.png and was wondering what would be the closest to these masteries in the new masteries.
Yeah! You can go [18-0-12](http://pyroblasty.github.io/masteries/#CvKxCvKYCvKxy) and get something pretty close to this, but instead I would opt for [12-0-18](http://pyroblasty.github.io/masteries/#CvKxyYCvKxK0K) because of Grasp of the Undying. Mini Gnar is one of the few ranged champions that builds a lot of health, so he'll get some good damage and healing out of Grasp in lane, even with its reduced effectiveness. Then, Mega Gnar will deal some pretty serious damage with it with his large health pool. On top of that, there's a couple of other masteries that Gnar really likes. Oppressor in the Ferocity tree, for example, will increase his damage against CC'd targets, and he's always CC'ing his target. Explore and see if you can find something you're happy with!
: Well, this is very much welcome because earlier I was struggling with Kha on the jungle (and I still struggle with choosing what where honestly). So thanks a lot! Going to try these later today. As a note, I tried out Nasus just like you posted but: Instead of life on the "Defense" tree, I took extra armor/MR AND the last mastery I took for building HP. Since he's going to last hit minions, and a tank as well, it just would make sense that the Keystone mastery would be the perfect for my beloved Shuriman champion.
Glad to see that you're experimenting with other builds :D That's a lot of HP on Nasus, especially with his ult up! With that, I would grab a Titanic Hydra to turn it into some srs damage.
: I'm partial to 30-0-0 bui- oh. Oh no. Seriously though, if you haven't played Quinn with Warlords Bloodlust and some movement in the midlane, you don't know the meaning of "Twisted Fate AD bird woman". Actually, most people don't know what that means. Grab deaths dance first, rush crit and finish with a defensive item. You push nice DPS in fights, you can roam anywhere in like 10 seconds, you destroy low HP enemies. Issues are CC, poke, burst and engage heavy super-tanks.
Yeah she has some cool build options, even a 18-6-6, picking up both movement speed masteries (Wanderer and Explorer). Rarely is it efficient to do this (masteries get more and more valuable as you go deeper into a tree), but someone like Quinn who roams all over the place might get enough mileage out of it to make it worth!
  Rioter Comments
: @Stashu We need Fiora changes, but you're making me worried
Hi! Yeah, we've been keeping an eye on Fiora's balance, and we suspect she might be a_ little_ weak. Accordingly, over the past few days we made the following changes, aside from the base HP nerf: Basic attack cast time 0.25 >>> 0.2 Attack Speed / Level 3 >>> 3.2 Passive healing 15+5.9/lvl >>> 20+5/lvl E slow 25/35/45/55/65 >>> 40/45/50/55/60 Those first two changes should make proc'ing vitals with basic attacks a lot easier. It's always going to be tough since the target is moving while you attack, but compressing the time it takes for Fiora to attack by bumping up the attack frame and giving her more attack speed should help quite a lot. We've also observed that though she can compete in most lanes, she has a particularly bad mid game lull when teams start grouping. So, we're moving around some numbers to give her power when she needs it most.
: Just removed it on our end, waiting on the next PBE build to get the changes to you ;)
Tower critting, that is. She'll still do >100% hp true damage with that much AD.
: Fiora E can CRIT TOWERS
Just removed it on our end, waiting on the next PBE build to get the changes to you ;)
: Fiora E attack speed on inhibitors glitch or intended?
: Champion Update: Fiora is awesome!
Thanks for the feedback! Here's some relevant info: > [{quoted}](name=Euphoem,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=lTz9kOZA,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-22T19:48:32.495+0000) > Maybe make the angle at which the passive spawns fairer? As in, don't have it spawn completely behind the target or at an angle where Fiora has to Flash to proc it? The logic is intended to sometimes favor Fiora and sometimes favor the opponent, hoping to, on the whole, be fair. The passive will alternately spawn Vitals on either side of the map's diagonal axis [the one dividing the blue and purple sides of the map created by the river]. Thus if a Vital facing either down or to the left expires, the next one will either face up or the right, and when that one expires, the next will face down or to the left, and so on. > There have been times where an ignite + Q would finish off an opponent but the Q randomly decides to get that sweet 15 gold instead of 300. Please fix that I'll likely be tuning this forever, as it's difficult to make the ability function as expected every time :(. That said, I think we can get pretty close. I just made some changes to de-prioritize minions when there's a low HP nearby champion. Those should make it out in the next build, so hopefully that'll help!
: I'll take a look, thanks!
Having trouble reproducing this, can you give me some more information about the behavior you're experiencing?
: Q + flash on Fiora Is ether bugged or has a poor interaction that should be looked at
: isn't this passive too random (in that case, a low life annie could escape death just because the passive decide to go on the other side of fiora, making her Q selecting creep instead of champion, who maybe could die with Q damage +1 aa) that seems a bit unrelliable to me
It's semi random. It's logic is divided along the axis that the map creates between purple and blue sides. The passive will alternate between spawning on either side. That means if Fiora hits a passive on either the Left or Bottom sides of the target, the next one will be on the Top or Right side of them, and vice versa. Thus, it alternates between easy to hit and hard to hit, which should in theory not favor either side. Of course, those cases where you hit that minion instead of the champion who's _almost but not quite_ within kill range can certainly be frustrating. If this proves to be a real problem, I can add some additional under-the-hood checks to see if the target is within kill range of Q+2 basics or something like that.
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Stashu

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