: ARAM Updates on PBE
As a tank main, I'm truly saddened to see warmog's go. There's a lot of confusion about how to easily counter this item, but most games I play on live and somehow manage to lose is 1 of 2 things. Either I throw because I engage before my team was ready (yea, it happens to us all), or the enemy realizes I have warmogs when they see ++/+++ health ticking. Against opponents who are somewhat decent, as soon as they see the regen, I get ran down and it gets canceled because they know what warmogs does, and the pressure is constant for pretty much the rest of the game. There are so many champions in the game with %health / %missing health / %max health damage that warmog's should generally be left alone. %max {{champion:57}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:82}} %current {{champion:36}} %missing {{champion:6}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:92}} Let's not forget {{item:3153}} + {{item:3124}} = {{item:3070}} for tanks Or {{champion:63}} {{item:3151}} the absolute bane of all tanks. God forbid {{champion:67}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} Let's not forget the diminishing returns of armor and mr, as well as the current (un)balancing of last whisper to bypass a percentage of **all** armor instead of just bonus. {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
: **Edit:** **One of the most agreed upon posts and it's completely ignored, you won't even provide us some numbers as an example or say anything to alleviate any worries. When mage items were initially dumpstered in price and stats the post wrote that you guys were more than willing to change or go back on anything, yet you're just compounding it with more nerfs, after despite near all the feedback saying the nerfs were far too much. Near every topic about it was ignored. Why aren't the hundreds of thousands of games of statistics enough to make you change your minds?!** **Why am I not surprised? The typical Riot "We are always right and we know what is healthy for the game and good for you" attitude continues. Because this game is so much more healthy and fun than it was in Season 4 right? No, it's not. Your model of what efficiency is fair for a mage is absurd and your stubbornness to acknowledge that or your mistakes is best described as disgusting.** **In any other industry this attitude Riot has would lead to instant company failure, but because of the foothold you have and relative lack of competition you just carry on doing whatever you want regardless of the opinions of the customer base; which at best you just get offended at and ignore unless it's something you can easily dismiss in a few lines based on your ideas rather than anything real or proven through thorough testing. Even if your ideas are statistically proven wrong you continue with them and call yourselves "overly correct" or similar insanity instead of ever admitting a mistake.** Original post: Why is AP being so heavily reduced after it was already heavily reduced while the crazy costs are still beyond unreasonable for what they provide? Mana regen removed in exchange for a negligible amount of mana? Why are you guys nerfing mages AGAIN so heavily? None of the mage ratios make sense anymore, they'd have to be dramatically increased at this point to compare to what other classes do. At the cost of 2400 gold for Banshee's tanks now really can ignore mages even if they have no resources. YOUR PRESEASON 6 CHANGES WHICH STAYED MADE LANING SLOWER AND MORE BORING while simultaneously ensuring that ~~tanks~~ any class with Banshee's/Visage can easily 1v1 any mage essentially gimping them. THESE CHANGES ARE GOING TO MAKE LANING EVEN MORE BORING/PASSIVE and make mages worse than trash later in the game. Whatever your intentions might be, which appears to be yet another all-encompassing nerf to mages, you're going to definitely make the laning phase a lot more passive. There's NOTHING in any of those items that's a net gain for mages, those mana amounts cannot possibly compensate for losing mana regen entirely and mage ratios are now a relic of the past which make no sense. CAN WE PLEASE SEE SOME MATH BEHIND THIS?! IN THE PRESEASON YOU GUYS CLAIMED YOU DID A MATH PASS WHEN DUMPSTERING MAGES, SHOW US THAT MATH! I honestly don't believe for a moment that you play mages otherwise you'd know how horrible they feel to play right now, and you'd find out very quickly they're chump change compared to all other classes in the game. I started playing sometime in 2011, with these changes I think I'm actually done after ~5 years, I think that's a wrap, I quit. If you showed anyone the Season 6 changes in S5, which was a disaster itself, they'd think it's a joke. Look up the stats of how many old accounts are going inactive this season, especially after these nerfs go through.
I agree. If AP magi/assassins are going to be this severely mana gated AND item countered with cheap components as well as cheap completed items, AP as an entire damage type needs to be amplified. Stop pretending ap magi are the scary beasts that used to pop people like they were in S3. They have since been gutted, stuffed, and put on display as teddy bears with nothing to fear. The community was assured that AP wasn't getting the chopping block when the Marksman patch came out, and in **compensation** to nerfs magi received, some other items were buffed to make AP champions **viable** in a solo lane. Now, those **compensation buffs** are being removed with even more harsh nerfs?! {{item:3812}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3139}} all received by AD scaling champions to counter AP burst. When will Riot give ap magi something to do the same? (None of the above suppress the user so don't give me that "Zonhya's Bruh" {{champion:12}} shit). Devs, your own arguements are literally contradictory of the actions to a fault. "We want item diversity to be a thing" Bring back Death Fire's Grasp. Until it happens, then Riot personnel officially do **NOT** want item diversity to exist.
: I get your point, but it's still not a good thing to have him banned, even though he's strong. Further plays can help determine what is so strong with him, by how much, and aside that, finding potential bugs and glitches.
TL:DR Don't play draft then. Seriously, you play a game mode with banning, he's probably gonna be banned because he's super op like every other champ post release.
: Agreed... PBE is for testing. You can't test something that can't be used.
Draft isn't the only game mode you can test in. That's Hais' point I'm assuming.
: Shen feels like his kit is lacking
Honestly, I've been playing Shen off and on since S3, and I can sincerely say I am truly disappointed with this update. His identity as a tank is lost. His sustain is what made him the tank oriented duelist that people liked to play. Sure he didn't button mash like Ryze or Roven, but he sustained his health until he got help from a jungler to snowball or until he got some items to cope with his lane opponent. I REALLY despise the fact that if you want to trade, you NEED to use 2 skills in order to do so. Old Shen was Q, farm while waiting, Q again, farm while waiting and repeat. This kit, you need to use your E and Q in conjunction in order to have a decent harass, and you get no return sustain wise for it. In my opinion, I would like to see Shen's current Q and W be merged into a new W skill, and return his old Q back to how it was. {{champion:122}} Q to poke {{champion:126}} Q to poke {{champion:85}} Q to poke {{champion:13}} QWE to poke {{champion:223}} QW to poke {{champion:8}} Q to poke {{champion:3}} QE to poke I think there's a pretty clear pattern here right? Fiora has true damage, a CC reflect, and a dash, and her ult heals if the requirements are met. Voli has his passive to restore %max health Garen has his passive to restore %max health per sec out of combat Gnar retains health from mega gnar, and safety from mini gnar's range Nauti has %max health shield Ali can heal himself Point being, Shen's not the same champ he used to be, and it isn't for the better.
: Well you gotta be fair here. Sure the meta is primarily AD but is that not something NEW? The whole point of changing the meta is so we don't have to sit around with the same stuff all the time. Some people may not like the current meta. It happens every time. That doesn't mean it's bad or unfeedback oriented. Also, the meta doesn't change overnight (plus we're in preseason so who cares what the meta is anyway). They'll take feedback into consideration like they always do just give them time.
No, it hasn't been new since S3 when Zed released. The only difference then and now, was AD mid wasn't de facto. Post Yasuo release, mid lane has been merely an auxiliary ADC lane. My point being, top can be AD Juggernaut (Darius / Garen) or AP Juggernaut (Sejuani / Singed / Swain / Cho Gath) The JG can be AP or AD depending on damage balancing. Why shouldn't mid? The current patch is so heavily skewed into AD mid and AD bot with cheap bonus armor pen that even if you try to counter build a TEAM COMP solely based around AD, you are heavily penalized for it. S3 & 4 Had AP variant Junglers that were an option, now they are almost completely pushed out of every role except support. (Sej, Elise, Gragas, Zac, Eve, Amu, Nunu, along with the hybrids like WW and Xin.) What are we seeing now in the jungle? Zed, RekSai, Quinn, Kog, Graves. Don't get me wrong, variety is the spice of life, this is true. However it's only half of the champions that are more or less eligible to be considered viable. Sure, every champ can in theory jungle. This isn't about that theory, this is about the practice. Life steal out the ass for AD, Maw 10%, Merc 10% Bork 10% BT 20% Death's Dance 10% Warlord's 15% Conditional, and 5% from masteries plus 1.5%x3 quints. Hell, even the Jungle Items have catered to Lifesteal. What more needs to be said. When you cap spell vamp at 1 item, because of 2 items sharing the same "Unique Passive" with no alternative, and then you look at AD itemization. It makes the issue very clear as to why AD is superior.
: As mentioned above, we take feedback from several platforms. While not every platform may have a hands-on experience, they are seeing videos, are watching streamers play these champions, and have also formulated valuable opinions on the subject. It helps us see a more well-rounded view of what the overall player sentiment is on a particular piece of content. In addition, we're also playing these changes in house with not only the team who made it, but several other teams, such as a highly ranked (D3+) playtest team who are giving feedback daily based on the changes being made even before they hit PBE. While the feedback may not seemed 'listed to' because something wasn't changed, it's taken into consideration in the development process.
How can you possibly say this with a straight face? AD Champs have been so heavily favored from the recent patches and nerfs both direct, and indirect to AP champions, that the new meta is almost exclusively AD. AD Juggernaut top, AD Mid, ADC Bot, AD JG, with the only real AP on the field typically being support. Maw, Merc Scim, New AD Items, along with the changes to core AP Items via pricing delaying the chance of a power spike until mid game. There is no possible way, you can convince me that our feedback is read, considered, or even partially acted upon. The only thing that has been nerfed that absolutely NEEDED to happen was the changes to Warlord's Bloodlust. AP Champs have been kicked under the table, with AD reigning supreme with additional free lifesteal added to any counter item that leans toward AD + MR. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: I think the main reason they are touching his null zone over malefic visions is due to the fact malefic visions is pretty much the centerpiece of his kit. They don't want to hit him too hard but the deathfire touch mastery is giving him a lot of value on 3 abilities. null zone every time it tic does % health damage and procs a tic of deathfire, every time malefic visions tics the same thing, and the same with Nether grasp. The problem is that when you do his full combo you are getting several extra tics of deathfire on top of the fact that now you can build the less expencive big impact AP items with rylai's and liandry's to do a lot of damage and have good utility.
Malz already got indirect nerfs from the changes to AP itemization and AD itemization (Deaths Dance, converts 12% of damage taken to AD Bleed which is mitigated by base armor + bonus armor, New passive for Maw, Bonus Lifesteal for Merc Scim which was a de facto counter for him to begin with that got buffed for free). The fact that the majority of AP Champions that use DFT got indirect nerfs through itemization alone SHOULD be enough to keep the game healthy. This is going overboard however. I see no nerfs incoming to AD items, or kits that abuse said AD items. Why is AP consistently getting the rod? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: Pink wards are cheaper (75g) and with green wards removed, this pretty much means players can use pink wards to fill the void. The cd of oracle lens was high as it is, so that wasn't always reliable to reveal stealth champions with.
The choice of buying multiple greens to ward camps as a mid laner though to track rengo and eve has been effectively removed. Not to mention you can still place at most, 1 pink ward. Sooooooo yea
: AP Mid's in the new Pre Season 6
I think {{item:1058}} needs to be buffed in correspondence with the recent changes to AD items. 1250 gold for 60 ap which is not critable, and only modified via {{item:3089}} for +30% which is effectively 19 bonus ap. New {{item:3035}} is 1300 gold with 25 AD, critable, AND has 30% bonus armor pen. So this item's gold efficiency is through the roof and impacted into the moon. Not to mention slot efficient af as an early to mid game item.
: [Preseason] Itemization Feedback Megathread (November 10th PBE Build)
Honestly, with all these changes, invisible champions are getting a **massive** buff, because of the changes to Warding Totem, the removal of Stealth Wards, and with the changes to AD items, essentially got way more bonuses than any of the Marksmen. Rengar (should or will?) be 100% pick / ban along with Graves. 1:1 AD scaling Q with LW being cheap as dirt now (1300 for 30% armor pen, vs 800g for 40 armor "balanced") is going to be a low to high elo wrecking ball. Worse than post release Jinx in her days of being the de facto ADC. AD items have been overly buffed, especially with mana gating Mana based casters, there's literally no reason (unless you just wanna be a rebel) to play a magic damage mid laner. (**Void staff for 35% mpen costing 2800 +80 non-critable ap vs 30% LW +25 critable AD for 1300**) Maw getting bonus 25% bonus attack speed 10% lifesteal AND 10% spell vamp on a de facto AD/MR item during Combat when Lifeline procs is beyond comprehension why Riot would do this. Mercurial Scimitar getting 10% lifesteal at the expense of 5 AD while retaining the MR and Active Use Cleanse {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} All these years of patching for the sake of **BALANCE** have gone straight out the window. Free Crit and CDR abound so long as you're AD scaling. Otherwise if you're an AP mid lane Caster, see you in S7 unless Riot gets their priorities together.
: > [{quoted}](name=Morninglord,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=MXLdEZih,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T06:35:18.971+0000) > > AP supports kept getting nerfed because their base damages were really high because supports in general, were expected to build for the team rather than their personal KDA oriented builds. > > Soraka mid, or top. Remember that? Remember how oppressive it was when she could point & click silence you, Q twice and walk away for free? Yea. That's why AP supports kept getting nerfed. Because they had to have a high base damage to poke with relatively low ap **as a support that built for the team**. > > Riot didn't like what it saw, such as an AP support being able to oppress a god tier Le Blanc back then when Sigil active silenced the target. A god tier burst ap mid lane mage, would lose to an AP support. > Top lane Nami, when building AP and especially a Rylais, would have double slowing autos with her E. It was like top Ashe that also was able to heal itself **while** trading with the enemy. Not to mention her CC. > > Lulu has been called the game breaker for **years** and justly so. Her transmogrify is almost as good as a 1 way suppression since her target can only move and watch themselves melt. Plenty of wave clear, scaling shield, anti assassin ult and a targeted speed boost? There's a reason she's a flex pick in LCS every year. > > Blitz is a 1 trick pony, comes in, W Q if Q lands E, R and back away from CS. That's ALL he does. That's ALL he's good for. Yes I mentioned this before. What does that have to do with my OP again?
What it has to do with it is, you lose stats for stronger items. Or you Keep your Sight stone + Completed Gold Income item and receive all of the stats from both. Tank supports need health and do way less damage, so base health on sight stone is healthy for tanks. {{champion:33}} Deal with it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Morninglord,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=MXLdEZih,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T05:37:33.420+0000) > > Let me point out what exactly you did, since you apparently are too incompetent to remember what you did. > survive with less armor and mr, but every champion has it's strengths and weaknesses. > > Where in the above statement does it read, **word for word**, "Sure you won't scale like Ali"? > > Unless you can find an exact match to that phrase, then you are twisting my replies, to better suit your argument. I am not humoring strawman like that. Nowhere did I say they need to. Also, i don't appreciate your verbal abuse. > > **Leona** got nerfed twice since *S3*, specifically her Armor / MR on W because "she was too tanky" not to mention Zenith Blade width. Not to mention is easily hard countered by Janna, Morgana, or a skilled Thresh. You mean before AP supports had a rough time at all and all supports were all pretty glorfied ward bots? Scaling with stats didn't matter back then and the balances that occured then are irrelevant to the changes now. Ap supports were also nerfed repeatedly back then as well. > Patch 4.5 > Eclipse Changed to 20 / 30/ 40 / 50 / 60 (From 23/35/45/55/65) > > Patch 3.14 > Eclipse Changed to 25/35/45/55/65 (From 30/40/50/60/70) +20% BONUS armor & mr. > > **Braum** didn't come out until S4 4.7 and got nerfed 2 weeks after he came out, after all the nerfs, he hadn't received a single buff until 5.12 when they gave him 10 damage at all ranks. > > Patch 5.12 > Winter's Bite DAMAGE 60/105/150/195/240 ⇒ 70/115/160/205/250 > > Patch 4.13 > Passive - Concussive Blows > BASE MAGIC DAMAGE: 38 + (12 x level) ⇒ 32 + (8 x level) > Stand Behind Me COST: 30/40/50/60/70 mana ⇒ 50/55/60/65/70 mana > Glacial Fissure FIRST TARGET KNOCKUP DURATION: 1.5 seconds ⇒ 1.0/1.25/1.5 seconds > SLOW 60% ⇒ 40/50/60% > SLOW LINGER DURATION: When an enemy leaves Glacial Fissure's field of ice, they'll continue to be slowed for 1.5 seconds ⇒ 0.25 seconds > > Patch 4.11 > Concussive Blows > DAMAGE: 70 + 10 per level ⇒ 50 + 12 per level > DEBUFF TIME TO PROC STUN: 5 seconds ⇒ 4 seconds > > Patch 4.9 > Base Attack Damage: 56 ⇒ 53 > Winter's Bite Base Damage: 80/125/170/215/260 ⇒ 60/105/150/195/240 > Stand Behind Me Bonus Armor / Magic Resistance: 20/22.5/25/27.5/30 (+14/15.5/12/18.5/20% bonus armor / mr) ⇒ 15/17.5/20/22.5/25 (+10/11.5/13/14.5/16% bonus armor / mr) > > **Thresh** has had nothing BUT nerfs and bug fixes. ONE single patch, has given him a usable buff since his release in S3. Olaf has seen more buffs than Thresh has. > > Patch 5.13 > Dark Passage > GET TO THE LANTERN: Lantern now does not despawn while Thresh is mid-flight towards his Death Sentenced target > > Patch 4.13 > Dark Passage "NEW" NO GROUP FARES: Now only shields the first ally to be near the Lantern. Thresh himself can still always receive the shield. > The Box "REMOVED" YOU'RE STUCK IN HERE WITH ME: The Box no longer deals additional damage to opponents when they break extra walls beyond the first. Extra walls still apply half slow duration. > > Patch 4.4 > Damnation SOUL DESPAWN RATE: 15 seconds ⇒ 8 seconds > > Patch 4.3 > BASIC ATTACK RANGE :: 475 ⇒ 450 > > Patch 4.1 > The Box Delay on wall formation increased to 0.75 seconds (from 0.5 seconds) > Dark Passage Now shows indicator particles to nearby allies to indicate that it is a clickable object > Lantern now has a small collision radius > > Patch 3.12 > Death Sentence > Cooldown increased to 20/18/16/14/12 (from 18/16.5/15/13.5/12) > Cooldown now reduced by 3 seconds if Death Sentence strikes an enemy > > Patch 3.10 > Base Health reduced to 500 from 541 > Base Armor reduced to 12 from 18 > Damnation Souls now always grant 0.75 Armor and Ability Power instead of starting at 1.0 and granting diminishing returns per soul collected > > Patch 3.06 > Death Sentence Damage increased to 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 from 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 > Passive moved to Flay > Flay Damage reduced to 65 / 95 / 125 / 155 / 185 from 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 Also, pointing out nerfs while ignoring the beneficial patches paints an incredibly bias view of the actual paradigm. Even then, it only shows how sever the issue is, as they are therefore "needlessly nerfing" tank supports to compensate for them being more efficient as well as them still proceeding to dominate botlane despite them. This wouldn't be such a problem is this was remedied. As for Leona's Zenith blade nerf, that one was warranted as the darn things hitbox's bigger than the graphic. Pretty much every support as seen repeated nerfs, Soraka, Janna, Lulu, Nami all have too over the course of the games history. I also find it odd that you ommited Blitzcrank. figured he'd be an easy target. Morg to my knowledge is THE most nerfed champion in League History, making the irelia joke itself a joke.
AP supports kept getting nerfed because their base damages were really high because supports in general, were expected to build for the team rather than their personal KDA oriented builds. Soraka mid, or top. Remember that? Remember how oppressive it was when she could point & click silence you, Q twice and walk away for free? Yea. That's why AP supports kept getting nerfed. Because they had to have a high base damage to poke with relatively low ap **as a support that built for the team**. Riot didn't like what it saw, such as an AP support being able to oppress a god tier Le Blanc back then when Sigil active silenced the target. A god tier burst ap mid lane mage, would lose to an AP support. Top lane Nami, when building AP and especially a Rylais, would have double slowing autos with her E. It was like top Ashe that also was able to heal itself **while** trading with the enemy. Not to mention her CC. Lulu has been called the game breaker for **years** and justly so. Her transmogrify is almost as good as a 1 way suppression since her target can only move and watch themselves melt. Plenty of wave clear, scaling shield, anti assassin ult and a targeted speed boost? There's a reason she's a flex pick in LCS every year. Blitz is a 1 trick pony, comes in, W Q if Q lands E, R and back away from CS. That's ALL he does. That's ALL he's good for.
: > [{quoted}](name=Morninglord,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=MXLdEZih,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-08T19:15:12.312+0000) > > Yea, everyone knows people don't want a support, they want a second mid lane ap carry. What logic is that? Utility Mages like lulu and Nami need some form of AP to increase their utility. They aren't fulfilling the role that Lux or Velkoz are, who are still building heavy AP items while playing support. > > Honestly, I've been building sight stones since S3 on every support I play. > Viktor, Alistar, Blitz, Karma, Raka, Sona, Thresh, Leona, Janna. I have been playing since late S2/ Early S3. I was there. i did too. Everyone did. it was mandatory. In season 3, supports were ward slaves. I don't know why you think its anything special. > Health IS NOT a wasted stat. Unless you like being at 0 health all the time that is. If you require so much HP on a champion like Lulu who is spending her time protecting her team with shield and CC targets from a distance, you probably aren't doing a very good job positioning. Even then, with Lulu's Low resistances and already low Health pool, that health isn't saving you from anything, which is why non-tank supports don't even or rarely even upgrade Sightstone currently. > Sure, you won't scale with it like a Titanic Alistar if you feel you can safely > survive with less armor and mr, but every champion has it's strengths and weaknesses. This..literally contributed nothing to the topic and doesn't even make sense in of itself. > Sure you won't scale like Ali (you are admitting there is an issue) > But every champion has its strengths and weakneses. What does this have to do with the previous statement? If you are trying to say that AP supports "weakness" is they don't scale, this is inexorably untrue. The problem is the item selection being bias, not their actual scalings. The whole reason supports bases were lowered back in S4 was because they now could scale their utility with AP. the problem with this is AP mids became even more prevalent bot lane and UtilitySupports ran amok in solo lanes. Items like the Support Starting items and sightstone exists specifically to be slot inefficient to solo laners to circumvent this. Riot basically admits it's wasted stats. The problem is that it isn't wasted on some supports as it is on others.
I like how you're trying to twist my responses to better suit your argument. Don't worry, I'll fix that for you. >Sure, you won't scale with it like a Titanic Alistar if you feel you can safely >survive with less armor and mr, but every champion has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm admitting there is an issue if a **utility AP support** builds Titanic Hydra to utilize the base health offered by Sight Stone, yes. If the new support items aren't good enough for you, then don't build them. Let them collect dust like Sword of the Divine did and be reworked or removed. If you're willing to take a loss of stats and/or active(s) to get an additional item, then do so. >The problem is that it isn't wasted on some supports as it is on others. So what, you want to nerf all Tank supports that do a paper cut's damage already just because your precious Lulu support can't scale that well with bonus health? Tanky supports have been repeatedly nerfed over, and over, and over because people care too much about building another damage item rather than investing in a **SINGLE** defensive item. Seriously, take a look at your item builds and come back.
: As a Mid laner, i have to disagree. You have way more instant damage, sustain or Burst than they do, and trade that for sustain. Unlike them, You get an Item that gives you a bajillion AP, and gives you AP for having AP, An item that makes all your damage do more damage while hitting more people. An item that puts a slow on all your abilities and makes you harder to kill. An item that makes all your abilites tic for %damage (even more damage is they are CC'd) And item that gives you a bajilion AP while giving you the ability to become invincible and untargetable for 2 seconds. An item that allows you to actually kill their sustain after bursting them. An Item that gives you more damage, health , regen and sustain over the course of the game. An item that gives your Auto attacks a free on hit amount of Burst after using a spell (which was buffed, might I add) etc etc etc Your scenario isn't fair. you could do this with anything. The scenario means nothing in isolation.
If you're going to present your pov at least be complete in doing so. DCap gives you ap based on what you already have, 1st item DCap vs 3rd item DCap, it's more effective later in the game. Luden's got nerfed from the original 120 AP -> 100 ap for balance issues. Rylais in itself is not that powerful of an item, it's more defensive than offensive since you gain the utility of kiting assuming you can hit skill shots or use a point and click ability. Liandry's is a circumstantial item rather than a 1 size fits all, you need either a slow in the champion's kit, or you are further dependent on Rylais Zhonya's which is also lowered to 100 ap and has very easy counter play 50 armor to a mid laner is useless unless you're against an AD mid, or a jg that's camping you is AD Morello, which is a conditional effect, with the prerequisite of the enemy being 40% or less. Against health tanks, you have very little chance to get them to 40% unless they put themselves there (Mundo). Especially if they have a Warmog's or DMP. Lich bane is a joke, it has been since it was reworked. There's a reason why every AP mid laner that was reliant upon it got buffed when Lich was changed to hybrid bonus. (Everyone except Lux) As for Banner of Command, how many people ACTUALLY use it? Show of hands? Afronaut and who else? Furthermore, show me more than 2 items for AP Magi that is relevant to AD bruisers or ADCs. You have 2 items, with AP and armor. That's it Unless you honestly suggest stacking multiple Seeker's Arm guards. AD in general got life steal out the ears this patch on items that were already designed to mitigate magic damage. Maw, Merc Scim, are the big two.
: Why should AP have the upperhand?
: The problem with Sightstone upgrades.
Yea, everyone knows people don't want a support, they want a second mid lane ap carry. Honestly, I've been building sight stones since S3 on every support I play. Viktor, Alistar, Blitz, Karma, Raka, Sona, Thresh, Leona, Janna. Health IS NOT a wasted stat. Unless you like being at 0 health all the time that is. Sure, you won't scale with it like a Titanic Alistar if you feel you can safely survive with less armor and mr, but every champion has it's strengths and weaknesses.
: when you die and fall behind with gold spent on an item you can't stack, it negatively affects the 4 people on your team
Thus a high risk, high reward item. It was meant to be that way when it was designed.
: It should be putted in champ select like little <!> sign and only reasons to report should be offensive language and refused assigned role.
You must really like team mates who give the enemy a 4 man hug for free repeatedly. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: Dodging for champ hovering in new draft
It's not hard to have masteries that are custom made for any champion that you play you have 20 pages to work with for free. Just make bare bone masteries and adjust the keystones as needed. Another thing most people aren't used to, is you do NOT have to right click masteries out if for example, you want to go from Bonus Magic and Spell Damage to Attack speed, they're in the same tier, and all tiers have the same point value. So just moving from one mastery to another, you can just left click however many points you want to move. I edit my masteries in lobby every game, because I have generic masteries for each role that I more or less custom fit to the champ I'm playing. Another reason why there's so much dodging, is because people are abusing the no penalty draft mode to ban away comfort picks. Example: My top laner just picked Rumble, what happens? Rumble is first ban in the next lobbyMy JG picked Lee Win, he got banned second, and then the 99% Graves ban.
: Sorry to hear you ran into some bad apples, it happens everywhere. Try not to take it too much to heart. If they truely diverse it, they will end up getting reported and punished for their behavior.
Eventually, maybe. I cannot strain enough the need to return the Tribunal to functionality. This toxic behavior is like a plague. When left unpunished it spreads virulently and ruins so many people's games.
: Games should not start if someone DCs in champ select
Honestly, the type of crashes you described are the only successful lobbies I've had since the new draft mode released. I've had maybe 2 or 3 lobbies where there were no issues at all but let's face it, it's pbe, it's gonna be buggy. The fact that dc'ing AFTER lock in does not send the whole party back to que is the only saving grace this game mode has had over the past few days. Not to mention, you can still reconnect fine once the lobby reaches load screen, (usually)
: Only issue i see here is if people are running out of time, and they aren't fast enough to click both buttons in those last seconds. Then they'd dodge the queue.
We're not exactly using analog mice from the 90s.
: A fail safe option in champ select
I haven't had many games where a toxic player bans away a team mate's intent pick though it has happened since new draft. I definitely agree with op about the warning of banning a team mate's intent pick. If your team is first pick and it's a highly desirable champ then it shouldn't be able to be banned. However, if you're red side / second pick, then it should be able to be banned since the other 4 members will have to deal with said champion when it's time to start team fighting rather than laning.
: Zeke's and Zhonya's, vs, Maw and Merc. Same Number of items.
Zeke's is dependent on a second champion unless you want to forgo half of the item's effective uses. Maw needs the lifesteal removed so it's not a band aid vs AP champs and Merc needs to be a situation item rather than a 1 size fits all item it's becoming.
: Lucian is such a cool ADC, its ridiculous the amount of nerfs he has got and his W isnt that great, should get an AD ratio, or some utility like a slow. I also think he needs 550 range again. I know the new essence reaver gives him crits and CDR. But CDR lucian isn't really viable as his E got nerfed. Thats why people started playing Lucian as a normal ADC with shiv/ie build path which again wasn't that great. All i feel the new items have done is let a hybrid build into one. Neither of them i think would be as good as other ADC's like MF, Kogmaw, Graves, Tristana. He should get a slight buff to E, increase the range and ad scaling on his W. I need to test out his items a bit more though! But disappointed he left so untouched.
Lucian has been a top tier ADC for a long time until his passive got nerfed. He needs to stay that way, as a scaling AD caster rather than "I mashed buttons now I destroy anything that moves" {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
Rioter Comments
: Hi, yeah, it's a problem if you have to lane against an AD caster or some of them types. But later in the game, the sustain of AP casters is the Mana pool rather than the hitpoints. And you don't get that type of mana regen on ADC's either. But: It's like they should make them safer in some situations. Let me explain: While AP champs aren't designed to brawl into the fray head on, getting the occasional hit should not instakill them. That's where Zhonyas is a double edged sword right now. You can mitigate all damage, but you are stuck - and if you get lucky, you have your team to get you out. If you made a bad play, you are 100% dead when Zhonyas ends. Some AP champs can play around this - like the LBlanc, Fizz or the ones with a reliable stun mechanic. Some of the supports also have great disengages to prevent taking too much damage (think Nami, Lulu or Janna). But the typical AP laner or AP jungler has to build strange things if his name is not Ryze. Usually you end up with a Warmogs at Sejuani, or Will of the Ancients in some strange cases, but the most common midlaners that build lifesteal might go for the Hextech Gunblade like Akali or Katarina. It still doesn't feel very natural to me, and you still want to prefer that Rabadon's or the Luden's Echo over the WOTA, because you already get sufficient CDR from Morellonomicon or Athenes. TL;DR: Yeah, we are missing an item that goes straight AP + Spellvamp without any additional Fuzz.
You can get a scaling mana return on an AD using Essence Reaver, especially now that they gave it much more favorable combat stats to compliment.
: they shouldn't...this is why zedds and yasuo's are just plain wrong in my opinion. That being said zed struggles with lifesteal whereas I hate yasuo's setup. adc's can only blow up people who are squishy like them so mages get hit hard when fighting an adc but adc's are in it for the long haul when they go against a tank. casters on the other hand can drop a tank in a single rotation assuming equal gold income. also bruisers and tanks cant sustain like an adc can but adc's cant lifesteal through a mage or an assassin who will just burst them out. Its like a game of rock paper scissors.
Except most AP Casters are based around CC, in which case any AD can purchase a QSS and call it a day. Show me more than 1 item that's AP + Armor aside from Zhonyas. Now look at all the items that afford AD / MR.
: AP Champs need some kind of more reliable sustain now.
I agree with the OP. With the changes to items in the past few months, AD scaling champions have by far received way more innate power due to the changes in items. For Marksmen, we have Armor pen, 100% Grievous wounds, massive life steal, along with a slew of alternate items for any given scenario They have a suppression, QSS -> Merc Scim which got buffed They have heavy magic dmg -> New Maw of Malmortius with the old Guinsoo Rageblade passive for Lifeline until out of combat They have a kite comp -> Statikk + Rapidfire Cannon (Or just play Quinn and do race tracks around the map) They have a sustain comp -> Executioner's Calling component or completed item For AD scaling Tanks, we have Dead Man's Plate (Armor / Health + Move speed) Maw (AD / MR / Lifeline & Lifesteal) Warmog (Warmogs Heart OP) Titanic / Ravenous Hydra For AP magi, we have No partial magic pen item, 40% or less health requirement to proc Grievous via Morello, and like OP mentioned you could HOPE that your team is willing to save you if you have a thresh or Tahm and you get swarmed while Zhonya'ed.
: the sustain of a caster should be minimal. I think that they might could use a single sv item but they shouldn't be able to keep up with any of the other classes. They should be at the bottom of the sustain list because they have the ability to blow up anyone on the enemy team. Why should they be allowed to do that more than once just because of sheer sustain.
The same could be true for any AD scaling champion. Why should AD scaling champs be allowed to blow up anyone on the enemy team and perform 2 autos for massive life steal back to full?
Rioter Comments
: Executioners Calling needs Morellos Passive. Wounds to strong early levels of the game
It needs to have a strong effect, as it's combat stats are minimal to nill. As a Mundo main, you just have to adjust your playstyle, you can't just face tank someone with an Executioner's Calling like you could anyone else. Poke with Q, and don't try to go in melee range for trades. Maybe rush Dead Man's instead of a Visage, and work on Visage second.
: PBE Down for 2 Hours for Maintenance
I was just about to get into a game of aram and our timer reached 0 and the game started to hang for a moment. Welp, this sucks {{item:3151}}

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