Rioter Comments
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes V2 (feedback wanted)
Okay, now why were the shield values reverted? The whole thing seems like a net nerf now, with Q cooldown increasing and aura size decreasing with only her E being buffed. I wouldn't say that her E being weak was the sole problem of Sona. She needed values changed on her W as well, and they've been reverted why? On top of this all, the self movement speed was buff was reduced too. We seemed to have taken a step backward with the update.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Super Galaxy Shyvana!
Beautiful skin for the most part, love the effects and is definitely worth it with one caveat: **the face**. She's got a serious derp face going on that turns me off from buying the skin. Feel like some minor tweaks are necessary to make it acceptable.
: Super Galaxy Shyvana Face
Yeah, the face really throws it off for me and steers me from purchasing this skin. Would appreciate some minor tweaks to make it less derpy.
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes. Feedback wanted
Sona buffs? Riot, you feeling okay? {{champion:37}} On the whole, these changes look promising. Part of what keeps Sona from being too viable a support is how unforgivably low her numbers are in conjunction with her squishiness. The movement speed buff on her E does wonders to allow her to reach allies or escape enemies, and the shield buff is a modest early- to mid-game spike. I somewhat understand the Q change as you're inviting us to play safer early on while giving us a mid-game buff, and I'm cool with that. Sona's bully phase can be quite strong. My only concern is that it would force the bot lane into an unhealthy, panicky farm stage until Sona can bring enough to the table in ensuing fights. Plus, as an AP Sona enthusiast, it only makes my job harder. My only major complaint is the **radius change**. The 250 radius is **far too small** to be practical for Sona to deal with. Already being one of the squishiest supports, any small bit of distance you can manage to keep from the enemy is a good idea. 300 or 325 seems like a far more fair change if you're wanting to balance her aura radius with her coming buffs. Thanks for giving my favorite champion some attention, guys! I hope we all can work together to help her out.
: Just to clear up some confusion. One of the big reasons we made this splash art change was to eliminate a pipeline for getting specific content in for Tencent that has been costing us time to maintain. We know that some of these are weird and don't fit our art style, but our choices were limited to, Riot version or Tencent version, pick one or the other. Our splash artists are busy making splashes for new skins and champions and we didn't want to pull them off of those to clean up a pipeline. I know this isn't ideal and all regions are feeling pain from this change, but cleaning up these pipelines means we can focus our developer's time on features and not firefighting.
How did I know this somehow involved Tencent? If that's the case, I can see how you all have your hands tied here. The fixable issue here though is that, in many cases, the Riot version is the better version. We were never given a chance to "pick one or the other". All in all, we'd like to see the splash art team revisit a lot of these older splashes and better update them to our art style. So many of these are considerably out of place.
: Global Splash Update Incoming!
Is the concept of polling players on which arts they would like replaced/upgraded/swapped something you all have intentionally decided to avoid?
: Can we not? Many of these are just horrendous compared to what we have now. Beyond that, are you actually going to finish it this time? You've done this at least once before (or something similar) and quit maybe half way through. I guess at worst I can just save all the splashes now and alter the files to show those for me.
Can you please share how you do that last bit? I'm not going to want to use a lot of these new splashes, plus I'd like some old ones back.
: Thank you for the feedback! :3
No problem! Thanks for your hard work and helping this skin be as nice as it is :)
: After seeing it in motion my only real complaint is it looks like she abused her flat iron. It almost doesn't read as hair since it looks completely flat. Almost like ribbons. Maybe fill it out a little? Some volume...
After reviewing the skin in-game, I do agree a bit about the hair. Towards the end it gets even flatter.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dracharu,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=feMwxGXM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-27T21:26:10.157+0000) > > I'm loving the skin! Very beautiful, well designed, and super smooth. The recall is quite lovely too! > > Two suggestions I'd like to make are to change her auto-attack a color in the **light red to pink** spectrum (more typical of the Sweetheart skin theme) and change the hearts on-hit to the same color. The yellow hearts stand out and don't really fit the theme (except within the Crescendo). Also, changing the notes on her Power Chord** from notes to hearts** would be nice. I really like the gold hearts... but thats just my opinion i guess.
I wouldn't mind golden hearts, but there's a different between gold and yellow. The hearts on her ult are more golden, and I'd dig those.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Sweetheart Sona!
I'm loving the skin! Very beautiful, well designed, and super smooth. The recall is quite lovely too! Two suggestions I'd like to make are to change her auto-attack a color in the **light red to pink** spectrum (more typical of the Sweetheart skin theme) and change the hearts on-hit to the same color. The yellow hearts stand out and don't really fit the theme (except within the Crescendo). Also, changing the notes on her Power Chord** from notes to hearts** would be nice.
Rioter Comments
: Division Markers
I agree. Bad idea and they look horrible at the moment.
: Season 5 Ranked Borders
The new borders aren't that bad, but I still greatly prefer the current ones. The ornate borders look lightyears better than the dull, flat new ones. In addition, the division markers are not only a bad idea but horrendously ugly, further reducing the quality of the borders. I would must prefer they keep the current borders, with my only request being to make Silver look ACTUALLY Silver, rather than a dull lead (think the Gold, just, well Silver).
: The Katarina nerfs are absolutely unnecessary and here's why:
Wise words. Shame it's wasted, as Riot will never listen to us. They seem to know everything because they have "internal playtesting". Fingers crossed that I'm proven wrong, though.
: Maokai has little feet? Why?
Why does he also have a stumpy (pardon the pun) hand? Even in his current look, I don't get it.
: Seriously, I remember when Jinx came out and it was just like this. If they didn't get Jinx, they dodged, so in the end everyone had to end up waiting until custom games didn't require (x) amount of summoners so they could finally play her.
Actually, I remember that now too. But it was on live servers when I remember it going on. Dark times.
: Forming a Group for Non-Toxics
I'm good for it. MLGermany. Willing to play with you all.
: Arcade Miss Fortune Rainbow Ult
: Please ban *Zekay* for been a raging bad tongue
Rioter Comments
: Yours
Oh, thanks. I try, man. Just calling it as I see it.
: This is the best response and summary of the community regarding Sona's rework I've seen.
: Hi, Classic Skin icons are shown because of the clarity. You can recognize champion much more easily on the map! Also, some skin splashes look too dark to be a perfect icons. :)
But then again, Riot often recolors and changes the champion's face area to come more clearly in the game. Jinx's portrait to be an example. There's no reason they can't do it for the skin as well.
: > Unrelated to the majority of my post, but I have to say I have enjoyed Sona's extra mobility with her Song of Celerity. In playing Sona live, I am one of those who use flash to set up her Crescendo engages. Now, with Song of Celerity, it's pretty easy to avoid doing that. But other than getting Sona from point A to point B, the ability just seems to me (and others) that it's still another way to build up Power Chord or slow enemies. I'm just gonna kill of the "Fearless is a good guy"-discussion and ask: Why is this a bad thing? What else should Song of Celerity do? You cannot make a Sivir Ult out of it, because it obviously is not an ult. Or should it do something else than manipulating movementspeed? Although i'm generelly not quite in agreement with the current kit, i do think that the new E suits it. New Sona seems to be about outbursts when playing a song, and E does just that. And with my 3 games played i already had (about two) situations where i could activate E to get in range to tag an ally so he could get in range to kill an enemy off. So that is pretty fine. On another note, did they actually increase the strength of the W and E powercords? Would sound reasonable, since with the increased cooldowns it takes longer to build them up, so you naturally want that it to have more power. Off the top of my head, the slow from E-powercord was something from 40-60% which is really quite nice. So you have an ability to position yourself (and maybe even your allies) and with your passive a a potential save ranged slow to deposition target enemy. Or you just get a powercord stack. I believe that does suffice. If there is still power missing, i'd rather attribute it to her other spells.
I think what you meant by it doing something else than manipulating movement speed. We can't have a quick Sivir ult or Talisman of Ascension. That's game breaking. But Song of Celerity is the least fulfilling of any of her abilities and doesn't seem that helpful whatsoever BESIDES replacing Flash in Sona's positioning. Song of Celerity, to me, is a very situational ability. Maybe it's supposed to be. I only see a use for it to position Sona, and slow the enemy. The movement speed tag is pretty ineffective in my eyes.
: Whoever is making the decisions on this rework doesn't seem to care about feedback. They are doing their own thing. We've all been making topics and offering suggestions and they simply don't care.
I actually think Fearless does care, but he's been discouraged. I don't agree with him shutting out completely, but he does have some points. He posted his explanation on my post [here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/smgY9223-why-even-bother-with-sonas-shield).
: I think it's a very fair criticism that I didn't speak to you all as much as you'd hoped for. Saying that only 3 comments on one thread doesn't suffice? That get's a bit tricky. What is the correct ratio of posts? Do I only count posts that have actually tried to open or inform a conversation, or should I count troll posts and people raging without having even played the rework? At what point is my time posting and searching for ambient Sona threads better spent talking with our QA, live balance team, and experimenting with changes, tweaks and bug fixing? It's very possible that I didn't get that formula even close to right. It's something for me to improve on. That being said, when I look at posts that have lots of incorrect information, I started the time on PBE correcting them to make sure truthful information would be visible. Seeing those posts then get downvoted tells me that this community would rather punish someone they don't agree with rather than provide its members with the most accurate info. That's really depressing for me, both as a community member and a designer. It also doesn't help when words get put into my mouth. For E, example, I don't think the AP ratio "balances the ability." I think a completely new ability that gives Sona, as well as her allies a very large block of MS makes sense on a kit that focuses on positioning. Sona can now position for huge ults without Flash due to E, as well as use her other basic abilities with quicker repositioning to save her team and power them up. When we change a champion, some of the balance will be comparative, but plenty of it can't be. Sona is Sona, and her balance as a whole is very different than any other champion. Sona has to be balanced of the collection as her base stats, abilities, growth, item paths, etc. I know it can be frustrating to see a value go down, and it can be easy to dwell on that change in isolation. When we're adjusting Sona, we're looking at the whole, and when she was showing up really strong, we tried to keep her power in the places that gave Sona her own set of strengths and weaknesses. That means she has to be worse at some things than other champions, but she gets to have strengths that are actually her own.
There is no set in stone ratio of posts and replies that you must follow. I never implied that. But you cannot tell me that you think three posts were enough when in the last nine days, excluding the troll posts or flame posts, there were indeed people who contributed to the discussion and posted their feedback and thoughts. Obviously, it's not worth your time to deal with posts that have been offensive, provided incorrect information and then labelling it as a problem, or are unable to be comprehended at all. It's not your job to go here and there to appease those angry, or correct people who've got some information wrong. I get that. It's time far better spent as you said talking with your QA, live balance team, and experimenting with changes, tweaks and bug fixing, etc. However, a lot of posts have not been like that. I've seen some very long posts from people who've put a good deal of time into them that do not fall into any problematic category. I've seen a bunch of suggestions, pretty good ones infact that have gone unheeded. If it has been something you've considered, a simple one minute reply, such as "This is something we've considered, but through testing ourselves/how we've gone about it already, it just didn't fit our vision for Sona." would have worked. In regards to the upvoting and downvoting, that's a simple matter of agreement/disagreement. There's only one occasion on the Sona Update post where I think you're referring to and that was in turn followed by an innocent reply that you never answered. You might have been mistaken on that being "accurate information." Basically what I'm just asking that you pay attention to the people who deserve it. Don't let the haters, trolls, and flamers stop the rework from expanding. We're all here to work for the game, and we need to get along or else nothing productive will get done. Unrelated to the majority of my post, but I have to say I have enjoyed Sona's extra mobility with her Song of Celerity. In playing Sona live, I am one of those who use flash to set up her Crescendo engages. Now, with Song of Celerity, it's pretty easy to avoid doing that. But other than getting Sona from point A to point B, the ability just seems to me (and others) that it's still another way to build up Power Chord or slow enemies.
: I wanted to post here to clear up the reasons we've been lowering Sona's values, even while the community here is asking for buffs. Most of the balance changes are reflections of internal playtesting, as we can balance those scenarios pretty well (accounting for people playing their main roles and champs, having less of a learning curve due to their closeness to the changes, etc.) so they give us a reasonably strong environment for understanding a champ's balance. PBE doesn't have all of this going for it. Matchmaking is much less precise on the PBE, and some players are just hopping into custom games. Based off watching the internal playtests, Sona was strong, and not just a little strong. Sona really hadn't lost a lane before these changes. As a side note, for the people claiming that negative posts don't get read, that's not true. I've read every Sona post I can find on here, on community sites, reddit, everything. While also trying to get Sona as streamlined and bug free as I can, time to reply is pretty lown When I see 3 or 4 people spamming out really angry posts, I do take the feedback and try to understand the source of frustration. I haven't responded in this case because previous attempts to have discussions haven't proven productive. I don't expect to change the minds of people who've had poor experiences here based on talking about what happened in testing they can't see and don't believe in. Being called a monkey doesn't really make me believe that folks are interested in a meaningful discussion. If I have to choose between making an attempt to appease people who haven't displayed a tendency to actually interact with debate, or fixing up Sona for her release, I'm going to fix up Sona so that she's a better addition to the entire game, for as many players as I possibly can.
I first want to thank for your offering a response. It'd quite nice to see that you're still with us. The problem which you are understandably missing here is the anger and frustration of reasonable people stems from the lack of response, not from the rework itself. There's no way to change your or our minds when there is no back and forth discussion. I cannot say enough how irritating it is to look at the numbers, try her out in-game, and formulate posts and feedback only for them to seemingly be ignored by seeing her abilities yet again nerfed. Her shield, as my post shows, is an example. (btw, please re-consider the 3s --> 1.5s nerf) I appreciate your remarks on actually truly wanting to get Sona into a fit state for release. Again, Sona being my favorite champion, it's very important to me that she is made relevant again. However, I would like to remind you that most of us here don't want appeasement, so you don't have to worry about that. We want what you want, but we personally just do not see it how you do. We do not see her damage being sacrificed to help her team out more as a good thing. We don't see a heal that is useful mainly in positions of teammates being near death as a buff. We don't see a small AP ratio on a movement speed ability as a way to balance an ability. But you do. And we want to know why. That goes back to the communication, where if you can explain to us why you made these changes, perhaps then we could understand. Leaving only three comments on a post which now has over 100 does not suffice. For my side note, I've seen every comment regarding Sona on these forums, and all directed at you. You're getting pretty beat up, and it is unfair. Sometimes our frustration gets the best of us and we ignore common courtesy, and I myself have been a victim of this. Balancing is a very hard thing to do and as you said the PBE is quite limiting (but then again, such is the way of internal playtesting). I do apologize if I had ever been complicit in being rude towards you.
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: I'm pretty sure she's being pushed to live with 4.13, despite the complaints. If I recall correctly, at least. I'd have to double check.
You have got to be kidding me... right? I certainly hope with every part of me that you've been mislead. This is nowhere near ready for lvie. But it would explain why the updates have been slower and slower.
: Idea for helping Sona's aura range
I like this. Very unique concept, and it fits the musical style. Resonance, essentially.
: But if you heal someone for around 120 HP adn shield him for around 120 HP, then you are letting them live longer for 240 HP. That is as much as Jannas shield. Nut her shield is 100% temporary, costs more mana and gives bonus AD. Sonas heal gets stronger the lwoer her target, she hits more than one ally and the shield scales with her R ranks. All you have to do is cast W when you or an ally near you gets attacked. You can easily see projectiles and block them. The thing is that you say it is numerical bad without any examples. Even your thresh examples fires backwards. There is not on really good example that the numbers, except for th duration, are bad. Situational? The shield is probably a bit situational due to the low duration. But the heal is always ok, if you can keep up your mana. But that is something Riot always wanted. Low heals that get more impact in the right situations. And if she is too weak, no problem. They will buff her later. A remake is not about the numbers, but about the mechanics, and they ar working overall pretty well. But when they bring her back now into the little bit stronger version she was before these nerfs, I would guarantee you that she is going to be OP at worlds and that is not what anybody wants.
You are exactly right. The ONLY time I can see this work, or actually have seen it be effective, is when a friend was low on health. A good percentage of the time, they lived. But the ability needs to be more than that. The shield was not terribly effective in laning phase, especially before you get your Chalice of Harmony. This post was more or less a rant on the numerical issues with it, as you can obviously tell. I have, as well as friends have, tried this shield in the PBE and have had negative results with it, and I'm working on a big master post regarding that right now. I still disagree that she is better than live. I think the framework, as in the new effects the abilities do, is great. It's excellent to build upon. But to release her now would be stupid. I don't think buffing the numbers on each of her abilities, minus Crescendo, would make her OP in the slightest. But time will tell. I would love to agree with you and say you're right, but from my observations and personal tests, I can't. Perhaps it's my poor luck?
: Have you ever combined the 2 effects? It is still one skill. You can not want Riot to make each part of her W as strong as a full spell. 115 + 105 = 220 HP (60 at lvl 1). The AP ratio on this skill is 0.2 + 0.2 = 0.4 AP and scales up to a max of 0.6 AP (if your target is close to 0% HP). You heal a target that has lost some HP, so her base heal + shield and her AP ratio on that skill is better than Threshs. And Thresh will also lose the AOE effect on his W. Her heal also heals herseld still and the shield can hit up to 5 targets. Also keep in mind that the W scale up with missing HP, what means a maxed W will heal more like 150-180 HP when it matters. Every decent player that knows how to play her, has yet to fail with her on the PBE. I would suggest that you watch some people playing her or play her youeself instead of talking about numbers only. And if you use numbers, do the math right and don't say "50% of her W effect is not as good as Threshs W". Because that is the main argument of the QQ party against the remake. That only both parts of her skill together are as good as other champs skills. **And then these people always ignore her R passive. +40 HP on the shield for free again. That boosts it to 260 + 0.4 HP on her W + up to 105 + 0.2 AP based on the missing HP (max. 365 + 0.6 AP) on a single target.** it is all about the right usage of the skill, like it should be. The only part that I find bad is the duration of the shield. 1.5 sec is too low and it should at least be 2 sec. And in the end, it is better to release her like Nidalee or Gragas, than like Lucian. The first 2 were called heavily UP and garbage at first and their winrates were around 45%, and without any big buffs, they are now 2 of the best top lane picks.
I have combined both effects, and still found it pretty weak. You really can't combine them in the first place considering you don't GET 220 HP, you get half of it as health and half of it as a 1.5 sec shield. Congratulations! She can heal herself and an ally for 115 (+ whatever sad AP ratio she has), and possibly tag 3 other allies (if she can) with a 105 (+ 20% AP) shield that will most likely last for only one to two autoattacks IF the enemy in question can get them off in 1.5 seconds. With the poor duration on the shield she is easily played around. Her shield is easily popped, and you're going to have to wait a few more seconds to reapply said bad shield. If the enemy REALLY wants to kill who you're trying to defend, they will, because you're not doing much than burning mana on your weak abilities. Basically, Riot needs to create a skill that isn't situational and numerically bad, and that is Aria of Perseverance. It shouldn't be an ability we have to try and make it work, when I can easily play another, better support like Thresh, Leona, Zyra, Teemo, etc. that 9/10 will prove to be more effective supports considering how shameful this rework is right now. If you still don't understand or agree, try reading [Kanraa's post here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/hRwlREsx-okay-look-rito-this-is-my-thought-for-reworked-sona). I'm too frustrated at the moment to speak my thoughts clearly.
: Could Sona get a recall animation?
It isn't going to happen considering this is just a MTU, sadly. It would be awesome, though.
: Ah, 3 or 4 days was more of a response to the 'question / answer' deal. As far as feedback / update, I expect many weeks or a few months. And you can't expect them to respond to everything, nor can you expect them to implement every idea that gets thrown at them. Sometimes you have to remember, that even though we play this game, we're not game designers. Some of the community ideas are really, really bad. Even if a few people think it's really, really good. Riot has to appeal to the masses. And that's really hard to do. So sometimes they meet good ideas half way, or change them to the point where you can't recognize them. And yeah, I know what MLGermany is referring to, and my first post was directed at him. But you put out an interesting post, so I thought I'd reply more to that as a whole.
Considering the Sona rework is an ongoing thing, it's not unrealistic to expect an answer within a couple to a few days. Many weeks/a few months is the more unrealistic target. I'm not expecting them to answer every single post, but the mere fact that not a single one has been replied to is what bothers me.
: hey at least she gotten stronger but yeah, it's quite doubtful that she's on the same level as {{champion:412}}, {{champion:201}}. or even {{champion:25}} to create pick diversity. the way I look at sona, she's an all-round, squishy af, and yes very weak but extremely versatile support. and I think her strengths lies in her versatility. I mean let's look at this: 1) poke: her q has poke in lane like the way {{champion:267}} and {{champion:25}} does in lane so {{item:3303}} is the best "hands-down" stating item on her atm because of the poke she offers and her poke is actually her best category because she can poke 2 champions at the same time so she can get a lot of gp10 while doing so and the fact that it buffs your next AA is like {{champion:267}}'s E. 2) peel and sustain: again, she has the trait of sustain that {{champion:267}} and {{champion:16}} does and I agree when u said that her shield should be stronger cause despite all of my counter points, I still think the shield is pure shit while the heal is really good... but I think for her w to be good, the shield has to offer a lot more than just a shield because like {{champion:25}}, {{champion:201}}, and {{champion:412}}, she has a shield but it lacks the utility functionality that the other 3 shield have. {{champion:25}}'s shield ensure that as long it lasts, you will never get hit with CCs, {{champion:412}}'s shield gives peel or high mobility engage, and {{champion:201}}'s shield, if use correctly, will reduced dmg from incoming projectile or negate the very first one. {{champion:37}}'s shield does not offer any of this and even though I don't main or play support, I find that really lacking and people don't complain about that lol... weird. the same goes for her heal as well.. it is so damn lacking in term of game play. I mean {{champion:16}}'s heal gives armor after the heal and {{champion:267}}'s heal is a poke and heal, but {{champion:37}} is pretty bland in the sustain department and I think for her w to be good, it's beyond numbers, she needs more utility with her w (remove {{summoner:14}} and/or healing reduction?). 3) mobility utility: her e just makes me think about {{champion:267}} where it gives percentage move speed instead of flat movespeed so I think that her e and q is good... 4) engage and disengage: to the surprise of no one, her ultimate is the highlight of her strengths. if you look at all the other supports, there's either disengage({{champion:201}} , {{champion:25}}, or {{champion:143}} ) or engage( {{champion:412}} , {{champion:89}}, {{champion:1}}, and among others) but her crescendo is so good because it's projectile speed is really high and it's AOE so a 5-man crescendo could let you do anything. so yeah strangely enough, {{champion:37}} has all the tools that all other supports in the game gives to a team, thus, allowing her to fits any team comps, whether it's aggressive or passive and I think that's why she's a "true support" and versatility is her biggest strengths so I like u said u prefer "a powerful shield OR a powerful heal" but really I think it's better that she have a "Moderate heal AND shield" and by moderate I mean just the shield should gets buff because the heal is moderate to the point where it's strong enough to potentially save your life but not like {{champion:16}}'s ultimate so that she still get to keep versatility that she's good at and still be viable because I really enjoy looking at her in league games :D
You certainly know what you're talking about, and have some pretty good ideas. I think you should write a post and tell Riot what you think. Anything you've said is better than what they've done thus far. And yeah, I just really want her to come into the popular scene again because like I've stated elsewhere she is my favorite champion in the entire league and deserves a lot more attention!
: Everyone has to realize that these changes are *tentative*. They need to know where the middle ground is between overpowered and useless. If you guys would be less hostile and instead promote a positive, happier vibe, they'd probably read these posts more. A Rioter said before that seeing hostile comments deters them from wanting to respond or read. And it's a sign of immaturity, which says, "I don't know what I'm talking about." And you know, I don't disagree with them. Acting rude would turn me off from reading feedback as well. Be a bit more professional. Be more pleasant. We need "Regarding Sona's shield nerf", not "Why even BOTHER with her shield". And Riot definitely knows what a "buff" is, no need to be sarcastic. How you present opinions/information means a lot and we need to understand this is a testing ground. These are tests. This doesn't mean that this will make it to live *at all*, and Riot has stated Sona will be on the PBE much longer than normal reworks. So relax. I know you aren't as hostile as other forum-goers, but I really can't post this anywhere else and I'm sick of seeing people be so rude towards Riot. If I was working with Riot, this isn't the kind of tone I'd be interested in reading. We'd probably see more tests for champions and items on here if people would be nicer and realize ***nothing here is definite until they say so***. And they haven't said so. So I know Sona isn't coming to live like this. All of that aside, I agree with this post. I just wish it wasn't written so harshly.
Adonis, I don't know if you've noticed or not but not all of my feedback or anybody else who you see may have contributed "harshly" have been this way. We all originally presented our thoughts and opinions in a nice and respectful format. After awhile of pushing your ideas this way, it comes off as irritating when it's as if you're speaking to a brick wall. I've complained since about the time the big Sona update post was released, and for the first few days it was quite calm and respectful. I cannot respect or take seriously a company that will have a PBE forum, completely disregard what is said, and then not explain their reasoning behind these changes to boot. I understand where you're coming from, but at the current time I don't need a lesson on how to prepare feedback. If you don't take my word for being respectful, then look at others whose posts have been respectful and notice that no attention has been paid to them. When you notice that no matter what you do, or how you write, that your feedback isn't being taken into consideration, you're kind of at a standstill. What did I do wrong? What did I not state? Did I not assert how strongly I felt about this? What's going on? This is how RIot has had me feel this past week. Sona is my favorite champion in the League of Legends. Not for playing, but as a character, coupled with her lore and the expansions of her art and story. This is one of the reasons I'm acting with great fervor on this matter. I had quit League of Legends for about a few months and upon noticing that she was being reworked, I got interested again. This was further strengthened by the fact that I had, for once, been accepted into this PBE cycle. I was utterly honored to take on the responsibility. So, being a first timer, maybe I haven't noticed how things are run here. Maybe it's not unusual for Riot to ignore feedback. I do apologize on my behalf because of my high expectations. However, I have considered what you said and will create, in time, another post with my entire thoughts on her rework in a very objective, unbiased manner and will hope for the best. If my feedback, as well as many others is ignored once more, I'll just simply quit. I have better things to do with my time then try to contribute to the game only for it to be completely thrown out the window. Cheers for the reply, and thanks for posting your thoughts.
: Yes and no. Yes, Lux's shield at rank 3 (130) is actually better than hers at rank 5 (115) and **I'm only talking about base numbers**. Even when Sona gets +40 on the shield thanks to Crescendo's passive, it becomes 155, and that's Lux shield at rank 4. So yes, Lux's has become better than Sona's. And **no, the super poor healing does not compensate**. It can heal more when your ally os <75% health, but that, in mid game and late game, means suicide.
Don't just talk about base numbers. Lux also builds primarily AP, so in reality her shield will be even more ridiculous.
: I'm sorry, i only played the Sona rework when it was first released... but did you say that *Lux's* shield is better than her's now? that's... horrible... as a Lux main i would have to say that she probably has the weakest shield in the game atm (i'm looking at the shield when it only hits someone once, so i'm completely overlooking the refresh when it hits them the second time as it is irrelevant). so if reworked Sona is getting a shield that is weaker than Lux's, then i would have to say something needs to be changed... however, perhaps the heal that it gives could be enough to overlook the considered bad shield?
Actually, Lux's shield applies 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180 (+ 35% AP) and Sona's shield is 35 / 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 (+ 20% AP). Lux's shield can refresh, and it also lasts longer. Lux is also not a support (we all know she isn't really), so there's a problem here.
: I'm not a {{champion:37}} player by any mean and I don't like her gameplay (because I hate all support in term of gameplay....), though on a side note I like her super hot body though :D. but I think that low shield value has to do with her heal. you said that {{champion:412}}'s shield is have higher shield value and yes it's true but what {{champion:37}}'s w does better than {{champion:412}}'s w is that while it doesn't give the engage, disengage tool that thresh have, it gives sustain and the heal value is not something I call low... I mean, I agree with you, {{champion:37}}'s is somewhat weak compared to the heal/shield of all the support and riot should buff it to but I think that compared to live, {{champion:37}}'s w on pbe is so much stronger. I said this for a couple of reason: 1) the heal value is 25/45/65/85/105 + 20% ap ratio and increase by 1% for every 1% hp that the target is missing all the up to 50/90/140/170/210 + 40% ap ratio as compared to the live value heal of the STATIC 40/55/70/85/100 + 25% ap ratio and since u would probably use her heal to heal low hp target and never a full hp target, {{champion:37}}'s w have a stronger heal than live {{champion:37}}. 2) yes the shield value is somewhat low, but really I think at the end the day it's still better than the STATIC mr and armor buff because think about it, a shield value of 35/55/75/95/115 + 20% ap ratio is a hell lot better than the STATIC 6/7/8/9/10 armor and mr that is given on live. 3) remember, {{champion:37}}'s w gets a static stronger shield with every rank by 10/20/40 you put into her ultimate so assuming you maxed her w second, you already have her shield increase by 20 so yeah it just make her shield better than the STATIC armor/ mr stuff on live... Also, I want to touch on the way u said that her w is not a good spell, I actually disagree with that because hey it has a good heal value and gives you a shield, that's not terrible at all. I mean you don't know if you can save a few lives with {{champion:37}}'s w so the thing is I don't think it's a bad spell because it gives you the double sustain tools that many supports can't offer to there carry because many supports either gives heal or shield BUT not both at the same time so it makes her quite viable but yes agree with you, sona should be buff but then again , you never what a rework can do to champion.... I mean it helps {{champion:101}} and {{champion:107}}, and even {{champion:72}} to be viable in the meta and I though their rework was weak too, but turns out, they become 3 of the strongest in the current meta so only time will tell....
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate somebody actually explaining what they think and why. I do see a lot of your points, and I see I exaggerated a tad bit on how worthless it was, but I still disagree that it's a good spell. My problem with it is both the heal and the shield are pitiful. What Riot tried to do was combine them to be like, "Hey! You can't complain because of the heal AND shield." With the pitiful shield now lasting 1.5 sec, really, the spell can't claim to be useful anymore. Personally, I'd prefer a powerful heal or a powerful shield. In a way, it is better than live, but I'm still not a fan of her live builds. I think this rework is far from complete just because of the sheer amount of people complaining. You are right in saying time will tell but it better bring good news!
: Sona's E suggestions from the community. Please contribute guys.
Song of Celerity has always been Sona's useless ability, and this rework isn't changing that so far. I'm glad you're bringing this up, as most posts seem to be focused around her other abilities. I don't think having this fixed would make her rework (in its current state) work at all, but it definitely needs to be brought to Riot's attention. I don't think much is wrong with the ability now besides the base percentages and AP ratios being so low. Hell, buff one or the other. But it's outright horrible and useless, especially with a 12 sec cooldown (7.2 sec w/ 40% CDR). It's just another way to build her Power Chord at the moment. We don't want a quick Shurelya's, obviously, but we do need a bit more than the pitiful excuse for a movement speed increase we have now.
: What happened to the new Summoner's Rift?
I love how Riot doesn't tell us anything. Found out from Surrender @ 20 that it's pulled until next cycle.
: What happened to the new launcher?
It was pulled yesterday. I guess it's on hold until the next PBE cycle. Who knows. Riot doesn't tell us anything.
: Hi inSeyven, If there are no changes that some community members want to see it doesn't mean that they have ignored them. We are doing a favor by testing and giving feedback but it doesn't mean that they MUST change it by the way players want. I have to agree that some suggestions look awesome but some of them are not necessary to be looked at. ALSO!!! I believe that some changes might have been done and they tested them on their own private server but it didn´t work as expected. Please, be patient, think logicaly and don´t act as immature person. ¨Yelling¨ on someone who knows what is he doing is definitely not the right way to start a discussion. Just remember that they do listen to us! They have proven that numerous of times (Night Hunter Rengar, Atlantean Syndra, All-Star login screen, Lee Sin balance changes and etc.) but they are actually the persons who knows what is the best for this game. :)
Hi Lunar Revel, There are some problems with what you've said. "Some community members" doesn't necessarily mean MOST, which it proves to be MOST of the community that has had an issue with various elements of the rework. The PBE is an ever-changing, fluid environment in which Riot has free reign to play with the numbers. Not only are the hardly playing with them, when they do, they completely ***counteract what the community is saying***. I don't agree with them having a PBE and then doing it on a private server, but if they do, then they should **TELL US** that they have tried this or that, provide and explanation WHY, and then we all would be happy. Considering most of your examples of them listening to us have to do with aesthetics or skins, that worries me. There is more to League of Legends than skins, launchers, etc. You actually have to play the game. Also, the one balance change you listed, "Lee Sin", was requested months and months before in not just the PBE forums but the live forums as well. I do not think Riot has so far proved to be the persons who know what is best for this game, considering we are the **COMMUNITY WHO PLAYS THE GAME** after all.
: It works fine, its not intended to be a janna shield it's intended to mitigate damage in early laning phase and it also helps with pesky dot's (ignite). I save people more than once a game with the shield.
I'm not saying it's unlikely to ever save anybody, because a shield is a shield. But as a support, you should be doing more than saving somebody one out of ten times.
: Am I the only one who is thinking that you are completly wrong?? Look at sona´s ulti, + 40 shield and you forgot that the shield of sona is an **AURA**, so 5 people are getting this one. Riot also fixes thresh shield. Now it gives just thresh and one other player a shield. ===> sona´s shield is much more higher then thresh shield or other shields You also wrote that sona´s shield lasts 1,5 sec, that isnt true. On bottom lane it lasts 2 sec and in teamfights 3 secs. I think you all dont understand the changes on Sona: ***Nerfed on lane, buffed in teamfights.*** > What kind of shield is that? Its like the shield of *Locket of The Iron Solari*. And one question: Do you felt so powerful with the old auras? Q: + 20 ad and + 20 ap W: + 10 armor and + 10 mares E: + 20 % movementspeed Only the e spell had a good aura, w completly useless, and q only good for a full ad team
Yes, I think you are. Problems with what you've said: -Five people only get the aura if Sona is able to tag them, which, with the poor aura range, is more difficult than you think. -Thresh's shield does indeed shield only one person, but I'd have a one person shield that works than a poor, one AA only shield. -I don't know what math you're doing but Sona's shield is NOT higher than any other support's shield. -Riot updated on 7/24 that the shield was reduced to 1.5 sec (Source: [Surrender @ 20)](http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/07/724-pbe-update.html) -Sona is still poor in teamfights because her positioning requires her to be close because of the **POOR AURA RANGE**. Not to mention, her abilities still blow. -Sona needs to have a good laning phase considering she is one of the weakest supports. Plus, she needs to be close because of her **POOR AURA RANGE**. -Old auras were awful, but still better than this "rework"
: Still don't believe what's happening.
Honestly. I'd just give it up. I'm tired of checking the forums every day and writing new posts only for them to be completely ignored. This is one of the reasons I quit League in the first place. I came back for her rework and they're just throwing that in the garbage.
: Why does it matter if they interact with the PBE community? I know the thread title disagrees with what I'm about to say, but "Public Beta Environment" implies that we are testing new things. Testing implies the possibility of bad things. It also implies that they aren't sure if the good things are actually 'good things'. So, in that sense, the only purpose of PBE is bug reports and client feedback.
Probably because I expected more out of Riot, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also, this is not a Public Testing Environment, rather a Public Beta Environment. That IMPLIES, especially since we have a forum for discussion, that there is more to it than testing the stuff Riot puts out.
: It would be awesome to have free skin just for a week.
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Solerian

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