: Who did it. Who said PBE was up before it's up. I'm gonna have a stern talking to with that other Rioter. It's up now btw. Just finished maintenance. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Porosite,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=8ejmarHL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-17T20:04:57.632+0000) > > Who did it. Who said PBE was up before it's up. I'm gonna have a stern talking to with that other Rioter. > > It's up now btw. Just finished maintenance. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} i aplologize for this being off topic, but at this point i dont know what else to do than to directly address the only rioter who seems to be even active on these boards atm. does meddler or anyone whos responsible for balance changes and champion reworks even look at these boards? how do i get feedback back to riot about the garen rework? because im extremely unstatisfied that they have already locked in the rework so far and just intend to push it out in an unfinished state. when you compare garen to other fighters of his class, then every single of them. ALL of them, have a conditional ability that gives them enough base damage to turn them into a carry and qualify as a juggernaut. the rework right now intends to remove garens juggernaut ability and intents to turn him into a flat champion without strategic value, and without a win condition in the game. all of the changes to his base kit that are there now are fine, but the rework is still missing this crucial component, and then more than likely follow up balancing. im not the only garen main who thinks like this and who wants the rework just to progress one step further by adding such an ability back into his kit. but it feels fucking impossible to get any feedback back to a rioter about this who could make a decision in this case. apparantly riot axes had been pulled off the rework already weeks ago. no one tells us anything about the internal works and what happens next with the rework. it feels like decisions are just being made over our heads in this case in favour of focusing on other changes like the worlds patch. even though there would still be plenty of time to keep iterating on the rework until its finished, even now. so how do i get meddler to see this kind of feedback and get the ability to get into a discussion about the rework with him? shouldnt these boards be the place for something like that? why does there seem to be absolutely no communication right now?
: Fiora changes feedback
this is the worlds patch. not saying youre wrong, but riot doesnt give a shit of what this patch does with solo que. most of the champions on the list dont need buffs for anything more than putting them into the center of professional play. buffing riven would be ridiculous in any other metric than pro performance, so is that fiora buff, so is the lee sin or vayne buff which is completely uneccessary. all these supposedly high skill floor champions who for some reason manage to maintain a 50% winrate with completey ridiculous pick rates, and are downright broken in the hands of someone who mastered them. except for pro play of course, which is like an entirely different form of this game, where different values matter.
: Garen rework actually looked good if you change some stuff
the only difference i can see today is a 90 base health increase at level 18. is that it? we dont need any more number changes for this rework right now. we need a new steroid that is comparable to villainy, darius bleeds or mordes passive. then you can worry about number tuning.
: I believe that Riot should stop adding more and more damage spikes onto all the champions.
> [{quoted}](name=Janmm16,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=FYt6AJ49,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-08T23:41:50.680+0000) > > I believe that Riot should stop adding more and more damage spikes onto all the champions. they arent. villainy is removed, so they need to replace it with something equally powerful.
: Wasn't aware of the technical issues. Bad coded game I guess. Than I see only 1 alternative and that's allowing Garen W to be reset upon recieving an assist or allowing him to spin faster upon recieving one. I believe the beyblade direction would be the most suitable for him.
> [{quoted}](name=CoolKnightST,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=FYt6AJ49,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-07T16:02:29.144+0000) > > Wasn't aware of the technical issues. Bad coded game I guess. Than I see only 1 alternative and that's allowing Garen W to be reset upon recieving an assist or allowing him to spin faster upon recieving one. I believe the beyblade direction would be the most suitable for him. interesting idea, but would make him shitty in 1v1 scenarios if his kit was balanced around it. i think his new big juggernaut steroid should definitely be tied to his spin. this is probably what most garen mains agree on. i wouldnt mind either if they just built {{item:3005}} basically into his spin and made him gain increasing AD based on his maximum health for each second in combat, or for each spin he hits on an enemy champion or something like that.
: Garen rework actually looked good if you change some stuff
the on hit effects were removed because of technical issues, and not because they were strong. the on-hits were applied with 50% strength on the spin. it would have been easy to tune them down a little, to say 33% or even 25% to make them balanced if they were overtuned. the problem was that the only way to make them work was to make his spins count as basic attacks and spells at the same time. that created a lot of edge cases like rammus w and thornmail triggering on every spin and making garen kill himself on the ability, or shen w negating the entire spin damage, while jax counterstrike let the spin damage go through, but negated the on-hit effects. it was an incoherent mess. the only way to fix this would have been to build loads of exceptions into garens spin mechanic of how to interact with all these different abilities. this in return would have lead to a lot of spaghetti code and probably a mess of bugs. instead they just decided to drop the on-hits, and for now just build a single exception for conqueror into the spin. they need to come up with something else now that they can do with him to make his spin stand out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ imo they should do the opposite of what you said and lean fully into the armor shred on his spin and let it stack up additive for repeated judgement casts on enemy champions. let garens auto attacks refresh the debuff stacks, so he can extend the duration to set his enemy up for the next judgement cast. make the armor shred itself, and the threat to potentially shred up to 100% off a targets armor if the fight lasts too long without his opponent diesengaging to drop the debuff stacks, garens new juggernaut steroid. no other fighter in the game has an ability like that and it would give him something unique, while he would have a lot more agency over this steroid than villainy, and it had more counterplay too. his opponents can disengage and get rid of the stacks similar to darius bleed stacks, while there is no way to get rid of villainy other than waiting it out without killing an enemy champion.
Rioter Comments
: 1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T23:36:48.017+0000) > > 1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. > 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. > 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. > 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. > > Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. > > In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. > > But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) > > And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. > > And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. > > But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. > > Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries. please just stop. i wont even bother telling you everything you got wrong. i just saw one sentence where you said that garen has higher base hp than almost all of them, and this was really enough for me. garens base hp are among the lowest of the juggernaut class at 2048 health at lvl 18, where darius has 2282. just stop. youre not going to change anyones mind that garen is anything but a fighter, lol. and i wont bother trying to change yours. i dont need to. youre not in charge of game balance, so your opinion doesnt have any consequences in this regard. i can only recommend you look up the facts on your own claims. like armor/mr components in juggernaut kits that other champions than garen have, sustain via different sources etc. just read those champions tooltips for a change and youll find your mistakes yourself. this is {{champion:102}} passive for example >Additionally, Shyvana starts with 5 bonus armor and 5 bonus magic resistance, which is permanently increased by 5 for every elemental drake (Cloud Drake, Infernal Drake, Mountain Drake, and Ocean Drake) her team slays. dear god. im gonna stop talking to you now. dont bother responding.
: so what is garen going to get in place of villainy now?
so here is an idea. what if the armor shred on garens spin just kept stacking? the first time a champion is hit by 6 spins, he loses 25% of his armor. garens basic attacks and his q refresh the debuff. the second rotation would shred another 25% armor off the target (additive). so eventually if garen stayed in combat with the enemy long enough, and got 4 spin rotations off on him, that enemy would lose **all of his armor**. this is certainly something no other juggernaut can do and would give garen his own strategic niche. realistically fights shouldnt last long enough for that to happen, but up to 2 spin rotations on an enemy should be occationally possible. the counterplay is the same as darius bleed passive. disengage to drop the debuff stacks. if garen doesnt have villainy in his kit, and on-hits dont get to replace the villainy steroid, then this could be a viable alternative to give garen an ability that no other fighter has. there could even be the possibility to make the armor shred value scale off garens maximum health, to make it scale up to 33% at about 4000 health, so he needs 3 spin rotations instead of 4 lategame to completely strip a target off its armor. this means fights without interruption to drop the stacks, that last long enough to get 2 full spins and cleaver stacks on an enemy become extremely threatening for his opponent at that point.
: I feel the same about that I can't feel the budget from the vilain be somewhere in these change, I really want a decent damage buff on E otherwise Garen will still be trash in early game.
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Vr97EAEX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-29T20:39:08.426+0000) > > I feel the same about that I can't feel the budget from the vilain be somewhere in these change, I really want a decent damage buff on E otherwise Garen will still be trash in early game. garen needs a new juggernaut steroid that gives him his own strategic niche. just buffing his e damage and removing villainy puts him back to the same state he was before season 5. hes a lane bully with sustain, but thats not anything special these days anymore. hes just going to be a weaker version of every other fighter you could pick, because he has no situational ability to really pop off in a fight. hes going to be like renekton without mobility, or darius without resets. every juggernaut has a situational steroid that justifies their huge carry potential. for darius its that his bleed passive is backloaded, but once he can stack it up, he pops off in a fight with a 240 AD steroid and chain dunks. for nasus its the q stacking mechanic that makes him scale into almost 1 shotting squishies when they get into his range mid to lategame. for illaoi its her tentacle mechanic that can create huge burst when she hits a champion and/or his ghost with multiple slams. for yorick its the ability to add his ghouls and maiden damage to his basic attacks. for garen it was villainy that made him incredibly strong against the strongest member on the enemy team (at least that was the idea). the fact that villainy didnt work out well because of poor implementation doesnt mean garen should exist without an actual steroid. he needs something different in place of villainy that he has as much agency over as the other juggers have agency over their own steroids. he needs a new mechanic to replace villainy, and not just a removal.
: Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. Both of them are drain tanks, which is why you mainly see Olaf building tank items. Hes just a drain tank, whereas Garen is a traditional tank. Hes only closer to those champions you mentioned because riot has given him overstat damage on his E. Without the overstat damage on his E, he has nothing that makes him not a pure utility champion for Silencing, taking out the enemy carry, shredding armor, etc. And 2 of his 5 abilities are entirely tank oriented as opposed to one or less on every other champion you've mentioned. (Yasuo has tank abilities at all, Olaf has a tank passive on his ult but it converts to AD when using, making him have 0 purely tank abilities, Riven having one shield, Renekton having bonus health on his ult but also gaining extra damage, etc.) Garens job is to initiate and peel. Thats what he does. He goes in, silences, presses E and everybodies armor is gone, and then he cleans up. There is no other champion in the game with two solely tank abilities that is not a tank. And as it stands on lives, Garen doesn't do any damage, and he hasn't done Yasuo levels of damage for a very long time. The only reason why he is even remotely close to what you're describing as a juggernaut is because he's been forced into that role, despite the fact that since release he has been a Tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T09:09:05.695+0000) > > Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. ok, i see there is no use arguing about it with you. youre going to be stubborn about it. it doesnt really matter if you want to accept riots definition of tanks or fighters or not, but its the one garen will be balanced around. ill just say that riot defines a tank in league of legends not just as a character with a lot of defenses or sustain. theyre utility oriented characters usually with a lot of aoe cc on top of defenses. their job is to initiate teamfights, peel or lock down enemy champions. tanks: {{champion:89}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:12}} fighters: {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:254}} fighters, and juggernauts like darius, garen, olaf, illaoi, nasus etc. as a sub class of fighters are carries. their job on a team is to deal a lot of damage. they have an entirely different role than tanks. >Nasus. Darius. Garen. Skarner. When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee. They’re League’s hulking titans who, come late game, turn into super tanky carries who’ll pretty much destroy anyone foolish enough to get in their way. The prototypical juggernaut is Nasus, the classic one dog late game wrecking machine. The archetypal raid boss can only do his thing when he’s in melee range, and his lack of gap closer means he often has to rely on allied speed boosts like Sivir’s On The Hunt or well-aimed crowd control like a Morgana binding to get close, but once he does, he unleashes the power of his trademark Siphoning Strike. this is riots own class description back from the juggernaut update. except skarners role which they want to change, everything still holds up. i started playing this game since 2 weeks after garens release. he was never a tank. not once in his existence. his role was always that of a fighter, whos durability is just to offset his lack of mobility.
: Darius is also completely immobile aside from a leap as far as Aatrox's dash on his ult. (Which, if you're not a total idiot, you just walk away from him before he gets 4 stacks and wait for the stacks to go away.) Darius's Q requires 3 times as much positioning as Garen's E, considering it requires you to be outside of melee range for it to hit. Garen presses E and it doesn't matter if he gets CC'd, if hes close to them, what have you, hes killing them the entire time. Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. They converted his ult, which used to do true damage to the villian, into true damage for literally anybody. And the tank stats don't matter if he one shots everybody anyway. But go ahead, what are the downsides of Garen right now? Considering Damage isn't an issue, being kited isn't an issue, surviving isn't an issue, being poked out of lane isn't an issue, what does Garen have that literally every champion in the game doesn't have as a downside? What downside is there, unique to Garen and a few other champs, that make this champion less OP?
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:31:22.469+0000) > > Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins. this amounted to about 12% with a full spin and auto attack + q rotation. the ult damage was much higher. what they did was a power shift from magic damage to **lower** true damage. the removal of villainy has a large impact on garens viability as a champion. it tied up a major portion of his power budget that needs to be put back into his kit. if youre just remove it without replacing this power, youre just nerfing garen into the ground. if thats their goal, then they can keep their rework. i rather take the villainy mechanic, as anoying as it is to use than to have the champions ability to carry, and his strategic value as an anti-carry neutered. > Darius is also completely immobile darius has his hook, where garen has his q. other than that theyre both pretty immobile champions. the problem is, that after these changes, garen should technically speaking be even stronger than darius in a 1v1 scenario, because he doesnt have the same pop off potential. imo they should put the 1% max health true damage back into garens kit and put it on a different trigger than villainy with sufficient enough counterplay, so there is ever a reason to pick garen over other fighters. even if it would just be another stack mechanic.
: Garen is 100% a tank. The difference between Yasuo, Riven, Renekton, and Garen is that 1. All of them have worse base health base tank stats. Garen has 36 Base Armor compared to 33 on riven, 32 on Renekton, and 30 on Yasuo. He also has 616 base health as opposed to the sub 600 base health of every one of the people you just listed. And on top of that, unlike all of those champions, he has a significant amount of health regen, similar to a warmogs at level 11 (Which - surprise - is an item that only tanks buid.) And has a FREE armor and magic resist buff just by stacking his W, which then gets 60% stronger when he presses it. Which is not something either of the people you mention have. Not only that, he has HIGHER base HP and Armor than Sion, who is very obviously a tank, while having higher base HP than Ornn as well as the same base armor. Garen is a tank. Crit was already an option for Garen if he needed damage, but the difference was that it wasn't possible to do both. you couldn't go full crit AND full tank. Right now, with the new Garen, you immediately start being able to take 100% of any person in the toplane as long as you play safe until you get BORK. He even outdamages Yi. The only people who can take him are people like Riven and Renekton, but they can only take him because they run up to him, stun them and do their full combo, and dash away beforfe he has a chance to turn around and start beating the shit out of him. Garen was always a safe pick. Your ult did true damage to the villian, and even it doing true damage to everybody now is okay. Your point, as Garen, was to either split push, or run into the enemy team, tank all of their CC, silence the carry, shred their armor with E, then execute them with R. Now, you can effectively do more damage than yi while also being a tank and also reducing CC's by 60% and also still attacking through the CC. Garen did not need to do this much damage. He. Is. A. Tank. He should not be doing as much damage as bruisers like Renekton and Darius with double the survivability.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:25:27.178+0000) > > Garen is 100% a tank. just because a champion gains extra resistances doesnt turn him into a tank. olaf isnt a tank because his ult grants him 50 armor and mr either. the class of a champion is defined by his role on a team. darius is a carry, so is olaf, so is nasus, so is garen. garen is classified as a fighter. he always was and always will be a fighter. hes a juggernaut. that means hes closer to riven, yasuo, darius and renekton and other carries with his role on a team, than to tanks whos job is to initiate fights, control, and peel. you can protest and throw tantrums about this all you want, but this wont change and its the role he will be balanced around. riot axes mentioned that the only reason the on-hits were removed was because of technical difficulties. he said there were too many edge cases like rammus w, thornmail, shen w negating the entire spin, jax negating the on-hits etc. that would all had to have indually built in exceptions on the spin. he said the strength of the on hits on the spin themselves werent the problem. my guess is the current version on the PBE wont stay in this state. he will either add a real juggernaut steroid to garens kit that replaces villainy (which id prefer), or buff the numbers on the abilities directly.
Rioter Comments
: Change ETERNALS concept to CHAMPION PASS Riot pls!
only if that champion pass is available for blue essence. never should a system around skill expression and champion mastery in league be monetized. they could have implemented announcer packs (especially if theyre client side), map skins and a whole bunch of other cosmetics for that purpose a long time ago. instead theyre monetizing an achievement system that tracks generic stats for your champion, and flares them on enemy death screens to BM them.
Rioter Comments
: "I feel so kited" ~runs down all the melee champs then steps on cait trap. That video was absolute garbage.
> [{quoted}](name=GemJoe,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T09:18:45.350+0000) > > "I feel so kited" ~runs down all the melee champs then steps on cait trap. That video was absolute garbage. he was getting kited a lot, and ended the game pretty much even in kills and deaths. the reason why he still "ran down" some of those champions was, because they made a lot of mistakes.
: Garen gets 19-21 (24 if you go PTA) with a full AS onHit build With that he hits True Damage on anyone under 200 armor. Yes Urgot can keep attacking after 3s but that means nothing when he is dead after 4s Yes Urgot is a different champ. But why play him if You have Garen? (oh right Garen will be perma Banned) Also you see tons of Urgots going OnHit.... Not. Its not a viable build for Urgot. It very much is for Garen and is really the ONLY way to go with the current PBE build. Also there are others on live saying Garen changes are busted. There maybe others talking about Urgot but IDK. Does not mean its not an issue if Im the only one seeing the comparison. Also my ton is not Angry, its (*eye roll* how can a developer like Riot be so stupid)
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T22:23:52.190+0000) > > Garen gets 19-21 (24 if you go PTA) with a full AS onHit build im gonna stop you right here. this is never going to happen for the same reason you dont build full on-hit on urgot. maybe in bottom tier ranked games where frankly people are so bad, that you can make anything work, or if you want to troll normals. remember that PBE games arent representative of actual games on the live servers. garen with a full ad on hit build is going to get cced by anyone with hard cc and then he would die before he ever gets someone in range. the end. he doesnt have a hard gap closer or range to pull it off. want proof? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bB-doQIMJ4 this is a game where the dude specifically built to get around enemy kiting and still got kited. imagine he didnt have built tanky for slows and for lethal tempo and a squishy on hit build instead. one cc on a champion without mobility and a large hitbox and youre dead. **it doesnt work the same way as full ad garen builds dont work on live.** with lethal tempo and an attack speed item, it goes up to 16 spins. and thats going to be it. more isnt feasable.
: 1) How can you read my comments on like forums? Two different users. 2) Urgot has MAX 3 attacks per second while Garen can get to 7 per second My problem is not that Garen is better then Urgot, its the its broken our right. Urgot is has this 50% on hit mechanic but its useless on him because attack speed does not add more attacks to his W. IF it did we would be in the same place as we are with Garen. Garens E also Hits ALL in range of his E and does 25% more + the onHIt to the closes target. Urgot ONLY hits the closest target and per attack does less then Garen. So Garens E does about 50% more damage per hit and hits 2.5x more per second then Urgot. Yes Urgot has his Leg blasts but he has 6 of those Max and Go play Urgot vs Garen and tell me who wins that.... I can give you a hint. He uses a Sword.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T21:25:29.054+0000) > > 1) How can you read my comments on like forums? Two different users. there is only one guy posting on both forums whos complaining about urgot, in the same angry tone and writing stile, spamming every thread with the same arguments and sentence "the rework should never go live". i added 1 and 1 together. youre the same guy. > 2) Urgot has MAX 3 attacks per second while Garen can get to 7 per second urgot can activate his w for an unlimited amount of time. he can activate and reactivate the ability at will. the end. that makes them different abilities. garen gets somewhere between 11 and 16 (if he full on leans into the build) on hit procs over 3 seconds, while urgot gets 30 from range over 10 seconds until garens spin is back off cooldown. urgot can also cast his other abilities during that time while garen cant. urgot is a ranged lane bully. judgement and purge are two different abilities with different advantages and disadvantages even when they both can apply on-hits. stop trying to compare them.
: Unless I see Riot push to PBE removing OnHit from E there is plenty to freak out about.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-21T21:03:43.585+0000) > > Unless I see Riot push to PBE removing OnHit from E there is plenty to freak out about. the on-hit is not just going to be removed. there is still time to work on it. anyways. your reasoning is basically just that youre salty about garen being able to get an ability similar to urgot. ive read your comments on here, and on the regular forums and its always just about that. your 1:1 comparison doesnt hold up until garen is allowed to just activate his spin and keep it running like urgot can keep his w running, and they add 100 range to it. they are entirely different champions still. garen isnt going to be the same as urgot, as darius isnt the same as garen. youre freaking out over nothing.
Rioter Comments
: Riot CAN NOT go live with Garens E applying onHit effects. Its beyond broken. With just {{item:3153}} he wins every fight he is not 1v5 in (and then he wins if he is not CCed) Even allowing his E to scale up to soooo many hits from one key press is stupid. Urgot gets 3/s Gargen gets 7/s He One shots in the span of his Silence. There is ZERO counter play. He runs up Q>E you are dead.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2NH0vhdK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-21T19:17:44.424+0000) > > Riot CAN NOT go live with Garens E applying onHit effects. > > Its beyond broken. With just {{item:3153}} he wins every fight he is not 1v5 in (and then he wins if he is not CCed) > > Even allowing his E to scale up to soooo many hits from one key press is stupid. > > Urgot gets 3/s > Gargen gets 7/s > > He One shots in the span of his Silence. There is ZERO counter play. He runs up Q>E you are dead. a.) urgot is also ranged and mainly uses his own w to trigger his leg procs **and can be activated for far longer than 3 seconds at a time. ** garen gets 11 procs for 50% at level 18 over the course of 3 seconds. urgot gets **30 procs over the course of 10 seconds**, where garens spin goes on cooldown after 3. b.) urgot has his own {{item:3149}} already built into his passive. it scales up to **8% maximum health damage** per leg proc in an aoe, making **48% maximum health damage** from 6 leg procs on his passive. the cooldown scales down to almost no downtime, and he can get bork procs on top of that. with all this in mind, garens on hit spin isnt any crazier in comparison. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ realistically the most on hit items garen will be building with this change is {{item:3149}} and {{item:3748}} every further itemization into on-hits would leave him too squishy. he might be able to snowball lanes off squishier builds, but would still end up getting shut down by ranged champions and cc by midgame. this extra power he gets from on hits is in return to what he loses by removal of the villainy passive and the stats on his w. like people underestimate what villainy did for him. its not just the true damage on the ultimate, but also 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins that he loses with the rework. this was usually around 15% max health true damage over the course of a fight with a full spin, his q and a few auto attacks. more, if the fight was drawn out longer against beefy opponents into a second spin rotation. i expect that the on hits on garens spin may be reduced to 33%. but in return they should make sure that attack speed slows cant drop him below 11 spins at lvl 18 either, so his non on-hit builds dont get trashed by attack speed slows.
: Hail of blades doesn't apply Garen E
the way garens spin updates during the whole time of the ability. so hail of blades speeds up like the first 3 spins as it should, and then it slows down back to base value. so you cant just auto twice into e, and get 110% attack speed for the whole spin. if you want a similar effect, just go lethal tempo. it has a short delay of 1.5 seconds, but if you proc it and then activate jusgement, you get up to 4 extra spins later on in the game.
: I'm obviously exaggerating, I didn't literally mean 5K HP, just that he's insanely tanky. There's no reason for a tank to have massive AOE/On-Hit damage like that.
> [{quoted}](name=Stop Breathing,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T11:52:22.042+0000) > > I'm obviously exaggerating, I didn't literally mean 5K HP, just that he's insanely tanky. There's no reason for a tank to have massive AOE/On-Hit damage like that. well, garen still aint a tank, and he never was. so all is well.
: The rework is 100% as busted as people make it out to be. That might be why - surprise - People are making it out to be busted. His E scales off of attack speed and procs on hit effects. He adds one or two on-hit items to his kit and suddenly - A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC's. Its fucking broken. This would be fine if it required literally ANY amount of skill. You press E and fucking stand next to somebody and they die. Your ult does true damage so people can't build against you anymore because you just get BoRK and Black Cleaver and your armor is gone. Garne right now is doing twice the damage that Tahm Kench did while being twice as Tanky. Tahm Kench didn't have a damaging ult and only had a shield for in-build tankiness. Garen gets free Armor and MR for farming, and gets double that for pressing W. Its fucking laughable that Tahm Kench was too broken but Garen is somehow allowed to have double the tankiness, double the damage, true damage, and doesn't even have to hit the fucking enemy to kill them.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:17:08.770+0000) > > A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC oh, i see. youre making a couple of false assumptions. first off, garen isnt a tank. he never was. hes classified as a fighter. his intentional role is to be a juggernaut. a tanky melee carry, who can indeed deal damage like a marksman while hes hard to take down. but those defensive stats are basically compensation for his kit being entirely limited to melee range, and not having mobility. he also doesnt have any utility beyond a single target cc. those are huge factors. you shouldnt think of garen in the lines of a tank, but more of a less mobile version of {{champion:92}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:58}} and so on. he is the same type of champion as {{champion:75}} second, youre listing his rework, ok. but the attack speed scaling in itself isnt even a buff. what it does is to bring attack speed up in cost effectiveness to the same level as flat AD. though the attack speed scaling, a {{item:1043}} becomes about as cost effective as 1000 gold worth in AD for garen as offensive stat. this is opening up his build pathes, but technically doesnt add power. the power shift comes mostly from an 8% reduced isolation damage, 20 less armor and magic resistance on his w, and 1% max health true damage on auto attacks and spins against the villain that he loses. in return they added the on-hit effects to the spin so garen can scale with items like {{item:3153}} and {{item:3077}} and can proc conqueror with the spin, and use lethal tempo. like garen on the live server does actually shit for damage and way less than he should, because his entire kit is balanced around fighting the villain. he has a massive steroid against one person on the enemy team. the whole concept is problematic for garen players, because it can often lead to situations where the villain never lands on a target that we need to be able to fight. we have no control over our own juggernaut steroid. this is why power is pushed back into his base kit out of the removal of the villainy passive, and out of some of his defensive stats.
: The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive, and the only thing he has in his kit that helps him survive is an incredibly easy to dodge Q. All of Garen's abilities are either impossible to miss or near impossible, he can step out of a fight and get all of his health back and win every trade, and his W gives him 60% damage reduction when activate and 60% tenacity when activated. Imagine this for a moment. You take away Darius's E, give his W a silence, make his ult do max damage at 0 stacks and make it do true damage. Now give him a free 30 armor and magic resist, 60% damage reduction and tenacity, and a free warmogs. Sounds broken, right? Exactly. Thats because it fucking is.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:37:04.306+0000) > > The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive darius gets rewarded with 240 AD, bleed damage and resets on his ultimate when he gets stacked up. garens spin still relies on positioning and is mostly the same as on live servers, and hes not going to carry when he doesnt get ahead. when he does, he doesnt carry harder than most other champions who are snowballing. pick a fight with {{champion:92}} at level 1 and shes going to take 80% of your health with her q and autos. feed her and shes going to snowball to 1v9 the game. garen has increased damage and snowball potential for the loss of tank stats on his w, and the loss of the villainy damage, but doesnt do anything other carries dont already do. > Sounds broken, right? actually no. you can make any champion sound op by listing the benefits of their kit without the downsides.
: If you build rageblade on him he's even more broken. Yeah I agree that this "rework" needs to be reverted and thrown in the dumpster. There's something wrong when a 5K HP champ can 1 shot you with his spin.
> [{quoted}](name=Stop Breathing,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-20T00:35:20.999+0000) > > If you build rageblade on him he's even more broken. Yeah I agree that this "rework" needs to be reverted and thrown in the dumpster. > > There's something wrong when a 5K HP champ can 1 shot you with his spin. the only way to even get 5k hp on garen on the live server is, when you build full tank, get overgrowth and grasp stacked, and elixir of iron. how would he ever reach 5k health with a rageblade in his inventory? do you guys even think before you make these comments or are they just all based on youtube clickbait videos?
: > gangplanks and yasuos q also dont apply titanic hydra. Actually they do.
> [{quoted}](name=TheLastShadowPBE,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=ZcXrf5uh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-20T05:38:50.296+0000) > > Actually they do. they do? i thought gangpanks q procs tiamat and ravenous, but not titanic. its still intended behaviour, since the spin basically works like urgots w against the closest enemy champion.
: The key difference between other on hit champs and the pbe garen is that garen will auto win all melee fights. You cant stop his spin, Unlike master yi or on hit darius. Cc'ing garen will still let him proc on hit effects with his spin, and armor shred everyone around him, fully stack rageblade and proc tiamat faster than any champion can. Throw in built in defenses and you have pure cancer for any melee champ.
> [{quoted}](name=BeepBoopLoot,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2NH0vhdK,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-08-20T03:34:51.067+0000) > > The key difference between other on hit champs and the pbe garen is that garen will auto win all melee fights. You cant stop his spin, Unlike master yi or on hit darius. Cc'ing garen will still let him proc on hit effects with his spin, and armor shred everyone around him, fully stack rageblade and proc tiamat faster than any champion can. Throw in built in defenses and you have pure cancer for any melee champ. you can use minions in lane between garen and yourself so the on hits get absorbed by them. he doesnt seem to auto win melee matchups. he just snowballs harder when he gets ahead against them and opts into a full attack speed/on hit build. thats going to bite him in the ass by midgame when he has to deal with ranged champions. apart from that, the usual counters still apply. bait out garens spin and then fight him during the cooldown window. its just like you would bait out darius q or e before fighting him on a melee champion.
: I'm actually going to quit the game if the Garen changes go live.
this is literally the first iteration of the rework. its not as busted as people make it out to be. no one is going to build garen full on hit glass cannon. it would be like playing a shittier version of master yi. but feel free to quit because of a couple PBE changes and because you lost a few games on a test server. nothing of value would be lost.
: Garen on hit dmg bugged ?
> [{quoted}](name=Call me Teddy,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=NvLydmho,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-18T02:36:02.874+0000) > > I just went against a full on hit beyblade garen, and I know his e applies on hit effects like a lot, and he mawed me plenty of times to prove it but something that just striked me as weird was one of my death recaps, i tried to fight garen after he had already used his e, and he still mowed me down without needing it, actually he mowed me down with a q and 2 basic attacks and this is what death recap showed me (rounded numbers) : > > Q : 200 > basics : 200 > items : 800 > > build : {{item:3022}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3091}} > > now wits end, brk and rageblade are his only damaging items, and black cleaver (45 AD), and essence reaver (70 AD and 20% crit), and frozen mallet (30 AD)? adding almost another 150 AD among other stats? literally every item in his build adds damage. are you sure he didnt use his spin? if it just hit you with basic attacks then its probably a bug, but spinning you down would have made sense with that build.
: Garen changes should never make it to live
> [{quoted}](name=aaaaaashiba,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-18T19:42:32.008+0000) > > Imagine a bruiser as tanky as he already is, with an ult at early-mid game that could potentially be stronger that of {{champion:31}} and an insane amount of damage with his E, {{champion:86}} players can even use smite and win lane easily. ok. then also make garens silence aoe that scales up to 2.5 seconds, and give him an aoe knockup like chogath has. its called power budget. garen gets less teamfight utility in his kit than chogath, so he gets more raw 1v1 power. time to respect him like you respect darius in a fight. he currently loses the villain passive and defensive stats on his w. that power is shifted into more damage on his spin.
: Garen Changes too strong?
> [{quoted}](name=Asstera,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2NH0vhdK,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-17T15:13:32.795+0000) > > Garen Can Solo Baron. with a full attack speed and on hit build. but so can {{champion:11}} if you build {{item:3091}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3748}} on {{champion:122}} then you instantly get 5 stacked on enemies for 240 bonus AD and get the same results. the reason why nobody does this, is because in any real game that is not populated by people with anything between 30 and 300 ping, diamond and iron players in the same game, garen will just get cced and killed from range with a build like that. dont judge the strength of the rework off a few clickbait videos on youtube or games that snowballed on the PBE. a full ad/attack speed build like you posted will never be viable in anything but low elo games. because garen doesnt have the mobility of {{champion:11}} to pull it off. right now, even with the on hit effects on the spin, there is nothing garen can do that other on hit champions cant do aswell.
: [Garen] - Spin applies Guinsoo's Rageblade's effects
this is fully intended behaviour. for comparison, urgots w stacks rageblade and applies double on hits too. gangplanks and yasuos q also dont apply titanic hydra. the whole point of the rework was to add on hit effects to garens spin on the nearest enemy. this allows him to stack conqueror and rageblade. it should still trigger on-hits from rageblade with only 50% strength.
: sooo the garen rework is a pile of shit
the rank 3 ultimate was nerfed down to 20% instead of even the 30% mentioned in the tweet. what the actual fuck. this thing deals less damage right now than on live even after magic resistance. wow. no wonder i didnt get an execute on anyone before they werent just bursted by some basic attack of my allies. so far i do NOT want to trade this version of garen to what we have on live.
Rioter Comments
: A comprehensive response to the upcoming Garen rework and a list of concerns
if the on-hit and attack speed scaling doesnt work out in the end, i also have an alternative option for you. trade villainy (including the true damage on the ultimate) for {{item:3005}} built directly into his kit. give him bonus stacks for hitting enemy champions with 4 spins (multiple champions hit generate multiple stacks), and a full 5 stack activation of the effect on a successful execute with his ultimate. at 5 stacks, his basic attacks and spins deal 1% max health true damage to the enemy. again, remove the armor shred on his e to free up power if neccessary. if the 1% true damage becomes target agnostic and on a backloaded trigger instead, it has the same effect. i know the stack mechanic has been done many times before (darius, irelia, jax, morde etc.), but atmas impaler used to be THE garen item. atmas reckoning is in the same vein and as a garen main, ive desparately waited for this item to hit live. if you want to turn him into a lategame scaling carry juggernaut, then this is an easy way to do it. if we cant have it as an item, just build it into his kit.
: A comprehensive response to the upcoming Garen rework and a list of concerns
here are a few of the currently popular build choices for {{champion:86}} to consider that are worth preserving - vanilla bruiser {{champion:86}} >**main runes:** resolve with grasp of the undying, and precision >**items:** {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3742}} - scaling duellist/splitpush {{champion:86}} > **main runes:** sorcery with phase rush and transcendence plus gathering storm, resolve with demolish > **items:** {{item:3078}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3053}} - roaming {{champion:86}} >**main runes:** domination with predator + ingenius hunter, secondary resolve or sorcery >**items:** predator {{item:1001}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3742}} - off tank/secondary initiator {{champion:86}} >**main runes:** glacial augment, secondary resolve >**items:** {{item:3071}} {{item:3800}} + tank items like {{item:3143}} the main purpose of this build is to add utility to a team that lacks initiation. its also used to create synergy with teamfight initiators like {{champion:9}} and {{champion:85}} garens purpose here is to trigger righteous glory to run in and spread slow fields into the enemy team to support his main initiators that arent tanks, then shred armor for other members on his team with cleaver. as you can see a lot of very fun builds are on the line, by hitting the ad scaling of his spin for an attack speed scaling and on-hit effects. some of those builds might severely suffer or die under the initial iteration of the changes. this includes trinity force builds when the sheen effect is prematurely absorbed for half its damage and we lose control over its timing. we would love to **add** critical strike back in, and attack speed + on hit to these existing build pathes, **but not trade them in**. the idea of being able to proc conqueror on the spin, and interact with runes like hail of blades sounds awesome, but not when every build that doesnt include attack speed and/or on-hit gets effectively nerfed by these changes.
Rioter Comments
: Skeptical About the -210g off Warmog's
no one buys warmogs, because health is too easily countered. 200g cheaper warmogs is good. people might buy it now sometimes.
Rioter Comments
: [Bug or undocumented change] Grasp of the Undying for melee champs only grants 0.75% of maximum HP.
F12 is screenshot btw. pls dont be a pleb and take screenshots with your phone. :P
: [Bug or undocumented change] Grasp of the Undying for melee champs only grants 0.75% of maximum HP.
it also gives less healing. at 1000 health it should heal 40 health with a proc. it only heals 35.
: Grasp should not stack off of non-champions anymore.
you cant. you have to proc another grasp to refresh the buff or you lose it after 12 seconds. you can only get the proc ready by fighting minions but it will not help you keep the stacks.
: New Grasp Lacks a Clear Niche
grasp was always a rune that was aimed at fighters and not tanks. tanks can still take it, but they have aftershock or guardian. mundo is no tank. mundo is a juggernaut which is a type of fighter. it is really strong on him when he can stack ad from grasp. his e gives him massive ad from health and grasp adapts to the bonus and gives him even more ad. what you are talking about is exactly the goal of the rune. fighters who stay in combat are supposed to be rewarded with increasing stacking damage. if you dont peel them and make their stacks fall off or you take them down quickly, they keep growing into a large threat and turn into huge carries. it takes a long time to get stacked. most fights wont last long enough to get more than 3 stacks.
: [Balance Feedback] Do not follow the teemo nerf.
teemo is op on live and destroys all the bruisers top. he needs nerfs. the tank teemo build is the most toxic thing i have seen since tank fiora and tank ekko. he shouldnt even be allowed to buy frozen mallet.
: grasp values are still not correct
tested ability power values and AP is correct at 1.25% max health. but healing is still 35 at 1011 health.
Rioter Comments
: This grasp will definitely delete ornn (and shen?) Because they lack about a true scale and will make thing like phantom dancer hp vayne top real because it will give u a tons of free ad. Maybe something like gnar and urgot will be op to have against and half capping this for ranged wouldn't make it balanced (i will enjoy to play karma ap tank top with that). I think they only need to buff ad ratio to every single fervor user (trynda and yasuo inclused) so the meta wouldn't swap so easily (also fighters have alredy getting som buff by nerfing bramble / buff cleaver) I hope grasp wouldn't change into this thing...
> [{quoted}](name=BalckA98,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=ZU88BfLZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-06T06:45:01.436+0000) > > This grasp will definitely delete ornn (and shen?) Because they lack about a true scale and will make thing like phantom dancer hp vayne top real because it will give u a tons of free ad. > Maybe something like gnar and urgot will be op to have against and half capping this for ranged wouldn't make it balanced (i will enjoy to play karma ap tank top with that). > I think they only need to buff ad ratio to every single fervor user (trynda and yasuo inclused) so the meta wouldn't swap so easily (also fighters have alredy getting som buff by nerfing bramble / buff cleaver) > I hope grasp wouldn't change into this thing... no one cares if ornn and shen cant pick grasp. the keystone was made for fighters and not tanks. ornn and shen can pick aftershock and guardian. a lot of fighters only have grasp. ornns damage scales with resistances, shens damage scales with health.
Rioter Comments
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SexySpins

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