: > [{quoted}](name=SexySpins,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=d4EsBrp1,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-25T19:09:59.139+0000) > > removing klepto is fine, but the general sentiment seems to be that no one is interested in the concept of this keystone. > > most people, including me, think the concept is absolutely terrible and there is no reason to pick this keystone over a regular one that gives you consistent value. > > like what is the point of this thing? there is no champion that would make use of a random keystone. even if were looking at champions who can pick practically any keystone, there is still no reason not to pick a specific one as a centerpiece to a build or strategy that you want to run during a particular game. > > pls just try to find a new concept. > > what if you just brought the T2 boot upgrades back like you once up on a time said you would at some point? only that theyre enabled by an inspiration keystone. > > or hey, isnt this whole preseason supposed to be about the drakes and the elements? what if the keystone just granted some general benefit, and a small extra benefit dependent on the dominant dragon for the game that youre playing? Here's how you fix it. It changes when you base, right? So let's say you get a rune that works and you want to keep it. At that point, you need to lane as long as you can before basing, which puts you in an RNG position. What if it was altered to only change when you die instead? So that way the better you play, the longer you have it, and you don't have to decide whether or not you have to base or not.
> [{quoted}](name=Brother Nephew,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=d4EsBrp1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-26T17:21:53.138+0000) > > Here's how you fix it. It changes when you base, right? So let's say you get a rune that works and you want to keep it. At that point, you need to lane as long as you can before basing, which puts you in an RNG position. What if it was altered to only change when you die instead? So that way the better you play, the longer you have it, and you don't have to decide whether or not you have to base or not. you cant fix it. and no, it changes to give you a random keystone every 8 seconds in combat, or 40 seconds out of combat currently. like this concept is so bad, that i regard every second theyre spending on working on it a huge waste of time. they even made an art asset for it. like what? someone actually spent like an hour or longer of his time to make an icon for this thing. like who made this decision? you have to realize there should be multiple people involved in this process and not a single one came out and said "yo, i dont know if you guys did this as a joke, but if not, this rune is shit."? how is this even possible? this keystone is a noob trap. it cant fit into this game. its either so inconsistent, that its completely useless or they buff it more and more and more until it ends up entirely broken. who came up with this shit? this literally looks like a technical placeholder thats just there so **something** is in that third keystone slot because their code requires it. this cant be a serious actual keystone theyre planning on adding into the game, and expect it to see any gameplay above iron. like riots dev team just has to know themselves that its complete and utter trash. the only reason i would ever pick this on any champion is to troll arams or urf when i dont care about winning or losing.
Rioter Comments
: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/bGaVekxJ-the-random-maintence-has-to-stop?comment=0001
> [{quoted}](name=Amy Sery,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=jlpRexg9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-25T17:43:47.155+0000) > > https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/bGaVekxJ-the-random-maintence-has-to-stop?comment=0001 oh, thanks. to clarify, im not mad. i fully understand why this is happening. just thought locking the ques might make things a bit easier.
Rioter Comments
: well it was only changed to stack conqueror last patch and he wasnt exactly bad before it
> [{quoted}](name=draftmeister,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=zOmAPuaV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-24T09:24:44.692+0000) > > well it was only changed to stack conqueror last patch and he wasnt exactly bad before it its already confirmed to be a bug. garen will be able to stack the new version of conqueror aswell. they said theyll fix it before it goes live. which means it could take a while before its fixed on the PBE since its probably not high priority right now. the ability to stack conqueror was part of the mini rework, and an intentional exception that had been built into the spin.
: Conquerer Garen is less good
every spin should apply 2 stacks. every spin against the nearest enemy champion should apply 4. thats how it works on live. you get 1 conq stack per spin when a minion is between you and the champion, and 2 stacks per spin, when the closest enemy to you is a champion. since the stack limit in general was increased to 10, and the stacks per hit to 2, it should double the stack gain for garen too, to keep the same pace.
: New Kleptomancy should let you be able to ping what keystone you are in
this thig shouldnt even exist. its completely worthless and anyone who would seriously consider using this is a troll. i have a feeling they just wanted to remove klepto (which is fine), but didnt want to leave the tree with only two keystones. so they added this in the meantime as a placeholder. like they definitely know themselves that no one would ever use this.
: Yeah, I tried it out and it's really really bad. No one can use _all_ the keystones, especially if they got them randomly with no agency over their next one.
> [{quoted}](name=Moargana,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Jt2EAwz2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-23T13:34:04.723+0000) > > Yeah, I tried it out and it's really really bad. No one can use _all_ the keystones, especially if they got them randomly with no agency over their next one. this has to be the most pointless ability ive ever seen. if theyre actually trying to implement it, theyre wasting their time. especially since it could have some broken interaction with predator boots and unsealed spellbook. like even if works without bugs, its completely worthless and a waste of time to try and work on this. the concept itself is just bad.
Rioter Comments
: Garen and Conqueror
this is definitely a bug. garens spin purposely has an exception built in to be able to stack the keystone, since he is practically the only fighter who doesnt auto attack for extended periods, and his main damage tool is a long duration, long cooldown spell. so without this exception, the keystone is practically useless for him since it takes too long to stack up. the interaction probably just broke when the rune was changed, and they might simply not have gotten around to fixing it yet.
: I dont know if 4 cloud drakes can happen...
dear god, its additive? who thought this made sense? i just assumed that it would be a multiplicative stacking reduction like ultimate hunter.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=SexySpins,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=IhWhJ9w9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-04T00:58:49.773+0000) > > the update today is good shit. > > attack speed scaling tuned down a little, the villain mark is back as indicator for the damage amplification, and cancelling the spin refunds the full remaining cooldown again. > > the bug with the q where garen stops auto attacking after the q cast seems to be fixed aswell. he still makes a short awkward pause, but doesnt stop entirely, and you can skip that by casting the spin. > > means you dont get an extra auto attack in before the spin though. > > the double conqueror stacks from spinning on the nearest enemy, is something that will eventually get tuned down, i suspect. even if it ships with the changes. > > if its just because of the nearest enemy champion mechanic, im curious though what kind of effect it has. if its op, it can still get fixed but might also serve as an increased reward for positioning in trades for now, which is interesting. The nearest target is clearly a good mechanic for sure, if they want to nerf the AS ratio if it become too powerful when it will it live but still let Garen's spin damage decent without to make him busted it will be the safest way to do it.
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=IhWhJ9w9,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-06T15:29:47.614+0000) > > The nearest target is clearly a good mechanic for sure, if they want to nerf the AS ratio if it become too powerful when it will it live but still let Garen's spin damage decent without to make him busted it will be the safest way to do it. the AS ratio is fine right now. you can try a lvl 18 rank 5 spin on a practise dummy with only cleaver compared to only triforce. tryforce deals only a little bit more damage. but since its such an expensive damage item compared to cleaver (733 gold difference), it makes sense that you overall slightly come out on top on the spin + get the sheen procs.
: Idk if it's a bug tbh, the double stack happen when the nearest target is a champion. Beluga said he wanted to release a strong Garen on the live to balanced him after, wich is not the best idea I want to say :/
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=IhWhJ9w9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-03T08:38:04.227+0000) > > Idk if it's a bug tbh, the double stack happen when the nearest target is a champion. > > Beluga said he wanted to release a strong Garen on the live to balanced him after, wich is not the best idea I want to say :/ the update today is good shit. attack speed scaling tuned down a little, the villain mark is back as indicator for the damage amplification, and cancelling the spin refunds the full remaining cooldown again. the bug with the q where garen stops auto attacking after the q cast seems to be fixed aswell. he still makes a short awkward pause, but doesnt stop entirely, and you can skip that by casting the spin. means you dont get an extra auto attack in before the spin though. the double conqueror stacks from spinning on the nearest enemy, is something that will eventually get tuned down, i suspect. even if it ships with the changes. if its just because of the nearest enemy champion mechanic, im curious though what kind of effect it has. if its op, it can still get fixed but might also serve as an increased reward for positioning in trades for now, which is interesting.
: This is just a Terms of Use in Korean. **Press the "Accept" button.**
> [{quoted}](name=MissYouShy,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=KzIGlM4Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-03T14:12:01.749+0000) > > This is just a Terms of Use in Korean. **Press the "Accept" button.** i know that. im still reporting this as a bug, since it shouldnt be displayed in korean when your clients language is set to english.
: PBEに来ているガレンの変更についての要望
(i used google translate for this) that ult bug is only in interaction with a practise dummy. i tested it a few times at different health thresholds, and the ultimate caps out at 900 true damage against the dummy, but not against champions. against a chogath bot, i was able to execute him at 1200 health after i let him stack up. the bug that everyone seems to overlook currently is that spins grant 2 conqueror stacks instead of 1, which is pretty huge in combination with the attack speed scaling, and the reason why the attack speed seems so massively overtuned right now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ the attack speed scaling on the spin does **NOT** include runes. it only includes attack speed bonuses on items.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: 2 Garen Q bugs - delay on following AA and ignoring CC on the small dash
isnt the second case exactly the same as on live? it rarely ever matters, since the dash on the q is so tiny and the window so small. the reason why it happens is the same reason that {{champion:18}} still jumps when she gets snared, if the animation started before she gets rooted. though they have been changing a few forms of cc in recent times to stop enemies mid dash, like ahris e and be able to interrupt animations like tristanas jump. one way or another, he should still be able to hit the q from where he stands, since abilities in league work in a way, where auto attack animations (garens q is basically a fancy auto attack) are always followed through once they began. for example if you flashed mid garens q animation, the ability would just hit you where the flash takes you, even if thats far out of garens melee range. its also the same reason why his ultimate will follow through even if you flash out of its range, once the animation has begun. one of the only few ways to interrupt his q or a champion auto attack in general once it started, is to break the champions vision on you, by for example flashing into a bush. another is to kill the champion to break the animation, and i think zonyas works too.
: > [{quoted}](name=SexySpins,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=X6qEwlVr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-30T19:22:34.963+0000) > > just give up on the ult damage being always true damage, and go back to 525 + 40% missing health magic damage. > > the ultimate being always true damage would be really nice, but both rioters who worked on the rework so far said that it was a gigantic buff to garen. so if they keep the ult like that, theyre going to nerf his base kit possibly multiple times in a really bad way. > > the last that came from them was, that theyre still looking to shave power off garens kit. > > maybe just try to buff something else in his kit. a true damage execute doesnt make garen exceptional as far as top laners or fighters go. darius has it, chogath has it, urgot has it. > > instead of making his ult true damage and the rest of his base kit trash to compensate, maybe they should keep it magic damage and instead put a powerful damage steroid on his spin that other fighters dont have, and that gives garen draft value beyond "yuumi isnt banned". > > darius has his 5 bleed ham mode with resets, nasus has his q stacking, aatrox has the crit zones on his q, yorick has his minions. garen needs something to distinguish himself. > > at the end of the day, garen will probably still get another rework at some point when people understand how flat the rework makes him, to give him something unique in his kit. might aswell do it now. well actually they didn't nerf the ult but the passive
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=X6qEwlVr,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-30T20:11:46.437+0000) > > well actually they didn't nerf the ult but the passive yes, thats what i was saying. the true damage on the ult was such a huge buff apparantly that theyre feeling that they need to nerf a lot of garens base kit to make up for it. maybe turning the ult into true damage isnt the best idea then. maybe just go back to magic damage and give him a new steroid onto his spin. could be something as easy as keeping 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins against the nearest enemy in his kit, tuning the spin refund back to 100%, buffing the passive to 2% lvl 1, and having the w shield scale up higher. almost all these mechanics have more skill expression attached than the true damage ult, which means this would probably make the gap in power between low mmr and high mmr smaller.
: They planned to bring the nearest target mechanic back but they will maybe nerf something else..... I heard it can be the ult (nerf the %missing HP damage for more flat damage)
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=X6qEwlVr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-30T10:22:21.699+0000) > > They planned to bring the nearest target mechanic back but they will maybe nerf something else..... > I heard it can be the ult (nerf the %missing HP damage for more flat damage) just give up on the ult damage being always true damage, and go back to 525 + 40% missing health magic damage. the ultimate being always true damage would be really nice, but both rioters who worked on the rework so far said that it was a gigantic buff to garen. so if they keep the ult like that, theyre going to nerf his base kit possibly multiple times in a really bad way. the last that came from them was, that theyre still looking to shave power off garens kit. maybe just try to buff something else in his kit. a true damage execute doesnt make garen exceptional as far as top laners or fighters go. darius has it, chogath has it, urgot has it. instead of making his ult true damage and the rest of his base kit trash to compensate, maybe they should keep it magic damage and instead put a powerful damage steroid on his spin that other fighters dont have, and that gives garen draft value beyond "yuumi isnt banned". darius has his 5 bleed ham mode with resets, nasus has his q stacking, aatrox has the crit zones on his q, yorick has his minions. garen needs something to distinguish himself. at the end of the day, garen will probably still get another rework at some point when people understand how flat the rework makes him, to give him something unique in his kit. might aswell do it now.
: whats up with the garen PBE changes today?
that being said, im happy that you decided to keep working on him and experimenting, but unless this is a setup for something bigger that youre planning to add onto garen, i think youre taking this thing into the wrong direction. **especially the spin changes today.** the w change might have potential with some tweaking. mechanics wise, the changes that had already been done to garen in this rework the past couple of weeks were fine as they were. garen just lacked a critical component in his kit from there. that component is a replacement mechanic for villainy. giving him a juggernaut steroid that lets him access carry potential past the lane phase, similar to how nasus can get 600 q stacks at 20 minutes if he plays the lane out really well, how darius gets 230 bonus AD and ult resets from hitting 5 bleed stacks, and how aatrox gets a massive damage increase for hitting the crit zones on his skillshots. like in nasus case, such a mechanic can be bound purely to his players skill expression in decision making and doesnt have to be tied to mechanical skill expression like in aatrox case. if you want to think broader than fighters in terms of the champion pool, then {{champion:203}} is another example of a champion with a scaling steroid that is purely tied to her skill in decision making. garen doesnt need an ability like darius q or aatrox skillshots in his kit to give him a justification for situational carry power. it can be as simple as nasus q stacking, or kindreds hunter passive, or olaf literally just falling low on health to access his attack speed steroid. nasus and kindreds abilities arent tied to mechanical skill expression but strategical micro decisions (does {{champion:75}} go for the q on that minion and put himself into vulnerable spot, or does he give it up to preserve his health bar and get that q on the cannon later?) and macro choices (which target is {{champion:203}} marking at what time? which target is the most accessable to her to get her next hunter stack as soon as possible?).
Rioter Comments
: Who did it. Who said PBE was up before it's up. I'm gonna have a stern talking to with that other Rioter. It's up now btw. Just finished maintenance. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Porosite,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=8ejmarHL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-17T20:04:57.632+0000) > > Who did it. Who said PBE was up before it's up. I'm gonna have a stern talking to with that other Rioter. > > It's up now btw. Just finished maintenance. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} i aplologize for this being off topic, but at this point i dont know what else to do than to directly address the only rioter who seems to be even active on these boards atm. does meddler or anyone whos responsible for balance changes and champion reworks even look at these boards? how do i get feedback back to riot about the garen rework? because im extremely unstatisfied that they have already locked in the rework so far and just intend to push it out in an unfinished state. when you compare garen to other fighters of his class, then every single of them. ALL of them, have a conditional ability that gives them enough base damage to turn them into a carry and qualify as a juggernaut. the rework right now intends to remove garens juggernaut ability and intents to turn him into a flat champion without strategic value, and without a win condition in the game. all of the changes to his base kit that are there now are fine, but the rework is still missing this crucial component, and then more than likely follow up balancing. im not the only garen main who thinks like this and who wants the rework just to progress one step further by adding such an ability back into his kit. but it feels fucking impossible to get any feedback back to a rioter about this who could make a decision in this case. apparantly riot axes had been pulled off the rework already weeks ago. no one tells us anything about the internal works and what happens next with the rework. it feels like decisions are just being made over our heads in this case in favour of focusing on other changes like the worlds patch. even though there would still be plenty of time to keep iterating on the rework until its finished, even now. so how do i get meddler to see this kind of feedback and get the ability to get into a discussion about the rework with him? shouldnt these boards be the place for something like that? why does there seem to be absolutely no communication right now?
: Fiora changes feedback
this is the worlds patch. not saying youre wrong, but riot doesnt give a shit of what this patch does with solo que. most of the champions on the list dont need buffs for anything more than putting them into the center of professional play. buffing riven would be ridiculous in any other metric than pro performance, so is that fiora buff, so is the lee sin or vayne buff which is completely uneccessary. all these supposedly high skill floor champions who for some reason manage to maintain a 50% winrate with completey ridiculous pick rates, and are downright broken in the hands of someone who mastered them. except for pro play of course, which is like an entirely different form of this game, where different values matter.
: Garen rework actually looked good if you change some stuff
the only difference i can see today is a 90 base health increase at level 18. is that it? we dont need any more number changes for this rework right now. we need a new steroid that is comparable to villainy, darius bleeds or mordes passive. then you can worry about number tuning.
: I believe that Riot should stop adding more and more damage spikes onto all the champions.
> [{quoted}](name=Janmm16,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=FYt6AJ49,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-08T23:41:50.680+0000) > > I believe that Riot should stop adding more and more damage spikes onto all the champions. they arent. villainy is removed, so they need to replace it with something equally powerful.
: Wasn't aware of the technical issues. Bad coded game I guess. Than I see only 1 alternative and that's allowing Garen W to be reset upon recieving an assist or allowing him to spin faster upon recieving one. I believe the beyblade direction would be the most suitable for him.
> [{quoted}](name=CoolKnightST,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=FYt6AJ49,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-07T16:02:29.144+0000) > > Wasn't aware of the technical issues. Bad coded game I guess. Than I see only 1 alternative and that's allowing Garen W to be reset upon recieving an assist or allowing him to spin faster upon recieving one. I believe the beyblade direction would be the most suitable for him. interesting idea, but would make him shitty in 1v1 scenarios if his kit was balanced around it. i think his new big juggernaut steroid should definitely be tied to his spin. this is probably what most garen mains agree on. i wouldnt mind either if they just built {{item:3005}} basically into his spin and made him gain increasing AD based on his maximum health for each second in combat, or for each spin he hits on an enemy champion or something like that.
: Garen rework actually looked good if you change some stuff
the on hit effects were removed because of technical issues, and not because they were strong. the on-hits were applied with 50% strength on the spin. it would have been easy to tune them down a little, to say 33% or even 25% to make them balanced if they were overtuned. the problem was that the only way to make them work was to make his spins count as basic attacks and spells at the same time. that created a lot of edge cases like rammus w and thornmail triggering on every spin and making garen kill himself on the ability, or shen w negating the entire spin damage, while jax counterstrike let the spin damage go through, but negated the on-hit effects. it was an incoherent mess. the only way to fix this would have been to build loads of exceptions into garens spin mechanic of how to interact with all these different abilities. this in return would have lead to a lot of spaghetti code and probably a mess of bugs. instead they just decided to drop the on-hits, and for now just build a single exception for conqueror into the spin. they need to come up with something else now that they can do with him to make his spin stand out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ imo they should do the opposite of what you said and lean fully into the armor shred on his spin and let it stack up additive for repeated judgement casts on enemy champions. let garens auto attacks refresh the debuff stacks, so he can extend the duration to set his enemy up for the next judgement cast. make the armor shred itself, and the threat to potentially shred up to 100% off a targets armor if the fight lasts too long without his opponent diesengaging to drop the debuff stacks, garens new juggernaut steroid. no other fighter in the game has an ability like that and it would give him something unique, while he would have a lot more agency over this steroid than villainy, and it had more counterplay too. his opponents can disengage and get rid of the stacks similar to darius bleed stacks, while there is no way to get rid of villainy other than waiting it out without killing an enemy champion.
Rioter Comments
: 1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T23:36:48.017+0000) > > 1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. > 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. > 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. > 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. > > Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. > > In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. > > But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) > > And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. > > And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. > > But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. > > Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries. please just stop. i wont even bother telling you everything you got wrong. i just saw one sentence where you said that garen has higher base hp than almost all of them, and this was really enough for me. garens base hp are among the lowest of the juggernaut class at 2048 health at lvl 18, where darius has 2282. just stop. youre not going to change anyones mind that garen is anything but a fighter, lol. and i wont bother trying to change yours. i dont need to. youre not in charge of game balance, so your opinion doesnt have any consequences in this regard. i can only recommend you look up the facts on your own claims. like armor/mr components in juggernaut kits that other champions than garen have, sustain via different sources etc. just read those champions tooltips for a change and youll find your mistakes yourself. this is {{champion:102}} passive for example >Additionally, Shyvana starts with 5 bonus armor and 5 bonus magic resistance, which is permanently increased by 5 for every elemental drake (Cloud Drake, Infernal Drake, Mountain Drake, and Ocean Drake) her team slays. dear god. im gonna stop talking to you now. dont bother responding.
: so what is garen going to get in place of villainy now?
so here is an idea. what if the armor shred on garens spin just kept stacking? the first time a champion is hit by 6 spins, he loses 25% of his armor. garens basic attacks and his q refresh the debuff. the second rotation would shred another 25% armor off the target (additive). so eventually if garen stayed in combat with the enemy long enough, and got 4 spin rotations off on him, that enemy would lose **all of his armor**. this is certainly something no other juggernaut can do and would give garen his own strategic niche. realistically fights shouldnt last long enough for that to happen, but up to 2 spin rotations on an enemy should be occationally possible. the counterplay is the same as darius bleed passive. disengage to drop the debuff stacks. if garen doesnt have villainy in his kit, and on-hits dont get to replace the villainy steroid, then this could be a viable alternative to give garen an ability that no other fighter has. there could even be the possibility to make the armor shred value scale off garens maximum health, to make it scale up to 33% at about 4000 health, so he needs 3 spin rotations instead of 4 lategame to completely strip a target off its armor. this means fights without interruption to drop the stacks, that last long enough to get 2 full spins and cleaver stacks on an enemy become extremely threatening for his opponent at that point.
: I feel the same about that I can't feel the budget from the vilain be somewhere in these change, I really want a decent damage buff on E otherwise Garen will still be trash in early game.
> [{quoted}](name=fabfan,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Vr97EAEX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-29T20:39:08.426+0000) > > I feel the same about that I can't feel the budget from the vilain be somewhere in these change, I really want a decent damage buff on E otherwise Garen will still be trash in early game. garen needs a new juggernaut steroid that gives him his own strategic niche. just buffing his e damage and removing villainy puts him back to the same state he was before season 5. hes a lane bully with sustain, but thats not anything special these days anymore. hes just going to be a weaker version of every other fighter you could pick, because he has no situational ability to really pop off in a fight. hes going to be like renekton without mobility, or darius without resets. every juggernaut has a situational steroid that justifies their huge carry potential. for darius its that his bleed passive is backloaded, but once he can stack it up, he pops off in a fight with a 240 AD steroid and chain dunks. for nasus its the q stacking mechanic that makes him scale into almost 1 shotting squishies when they get into his range mid to lategame. for illaoi its her tentacle mechanic that can create huge burst when she hits a champion and/or his ghost with multiple slams. for yorick its the ability to add his ghouls and maiden damage to his basic attacks. for garen it was villainy that made him incredibly strong against the strongest member on the enemy team (at least that was the idea). the fact that villainy didnt work out well because of poor implementation doesnt mean garen should exist without an actual steroid. he needs something different in place of villainy that he has as much agency over as the other juggers have agency over their own steroids. he needs a new mechanic to replace villainy, and not just a removal.
: Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. Both of them are drain tanks, which is why you mainly see Olaf building tank items. Hes just a drain tank, whereas Garen is a traditional tank. Hes only closer to those champions you mentioned because riot has given him overstat damage on his E. Without the overstat damage on his E, he has nothing that makes him not a pure utility champion for Silencing, taking out the enemy carry, shredding armor, etc. And 2 of his 5 abilities are entirely tank oriented as opposed to one or less on every other champion you've mentioned. (Yasuo has tank abilities at all, Olaf has a tank passive on his ult but it converts to AD when using, making him have 0 purely tank abilities, Riven having one shield, Renekton having bonus health on his ult but also gaining extra damage, etc.) Garens job is to initiate and peel. Thats what he does. He goes in, silences, presses E and everybodies armor is gone, and then he cleans up. There is no other champion in the game with two solely tank abilities that is not a tank. And as it stands on lives, Garen doesn't do any damage, and he hasn't done Yasuo levels of damage for a very long time. The only reason why he is even remotely close to what you're describing as a juggernaut is because he's been forced into that role, despite the fact that since release he has been a Tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T09:09:05.695+0000) > > Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. ok, i see there is no use arguing about it with you. youre going to be stubborn about it. it doesnt really matter if you want to accept riots definition of tanks or fighters or not, but its the one garen will be balanced around. ill just say that riot defines a tank in league of legends not just as a character with a lot of defenses or sustain. theyre utility oriented characters usually with a lot of aoe cc on top of defenses. their job is to initiate teamfights, peel or lock down enemy champions. tanks: {{champion:89}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:12}} fighters: {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:254}} fighters, and juggernauts like darius, garen, olaf, illaoi, nasus etc. as a sub class of fighters are carries. their job on a team is to deal a lot of damage. they have an entirely different role than tanks. >Nasus. Darius. Garen. Skarner. When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee. They’re League’s hulking titans who, come late game, turn into super tanky carries who’ll pretty much destroy anyone foolish enough to get in their way. The prototypical juggernaut is Nasus, the classic one dog late game wrecking machine. The archetypal raid boss can only do his thing when he’s in melee range, and his lack of gap closer means he often has to rely on allied speed boosts like Sivir’s On The Hunt or well-aimed crowd control like a Morgana binding to get close, but once he does, he unleashes the power of his trademark Siphoning Strike. this is riots own class description back from the juggernaut update. except skarners role which they want to change, everything still holds up. i started playing this game since 2 weeks after garens release. he was never a tank. not once in his existence. his role was always that of a fighter, whos durability is just to offset his lack of mobility.
: Darius is also completely immobile aside from a leap as far as Aatrox's dash on his ult. (Which, if you're not a total idiot, you just walk away from him before he gets 4 stacks and wait for the stacks to go away.) Darius's Q requires 3 times as much positioning as Garen's E, considering it requires you to be outside of melee range for it to hit. Garen presses E and it doesn't matter if he gets CC'd, if hes close to them, what have you, hes killing them the entire time. Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. They converted his ult, which used to do true damage to the villian, into true damage for literally anybody. And the tank stats don't matter if he one shots everybody anyway. But go ahead, what are the downsides of Garen right now? Considering Damage isn't an issue, being kited isn't an issue, surviving isn't an issue, being poked out of lane isn't an issue, what does Garen have that literally every champion in the game doesn't have as a downside? What downside is there, unique to Garen and a few other champs, that make this champion less OP?
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:31:22.469+0000) > > Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins. this amounted to about 12% with a full spin and auto attack + q rotation. the ult damage was much higher. what they did was a power shift from magic damage to **lower** true damage. the removal of villainy has a large impact on garens viability as a champion. it tied up a major portion of his power budget that needs to be put back into his kit. if youre just remove it without replacing this power, youre just nerfing garen into the ground. if thats their goal, then they can keep their rework. i rather take the villainy mechanic, as anoying as it is to use than to have the champions ability to carry, and his strategic value as an anti-carry neutered. > Darius is also completely immobile darius has his hook, where garen has his q. other than that theyre both pretty immobile champions. the problem is, that after these changes, garen should technically speaking be even stronger than darius in a 1v1 scenario, because he doesnt have the same pop off potential. imo they should put the 1% max health true damage back into garens kit and put it on a different trigger than villainy with sufficient enough counterplay, so there is ever a reason to pick garen over other fighters. even if it would just be another stack mechanic.
: Garen is 100% a tank. The difference between Yasuo, Riven, Renekton, and Garen is that 1. All of them have worse base health base tank stats. Garen has 36 Base Armor compared to 33 on riven, 32 on Renekton, and 30 on Yasuo. He also has 616 base health as opposed to the sub 600 base health of every one of the people you just listed. And on top of that, unlike all of those champions, he has a significant amount of health regen, similar to a warmogs at level 11 (Which - surprise - is an item that only tanks buid.) And has a FREE armor and magic resist buff just by stacking his W, which then gets 60% stronger when he presses it. Which is not something either of the people you mention have. Not only that, he has HIGHER base HP and Armor than Sion, who is very obviously a tank, while having higher base HP than Ornn as well as the same base armor. Garen is a tank. Crit was already an option for Garen if he needed damage, but the difference was that it wasn't possible to do both. you couldn't go full crit AND full tank. Right now, with the new Garen, you immediately start being able to take 100% of any person in the toplane as long as you play safe until you get BORK. He even outdamages Yi. The only people who can take him are people like Riven and Renekton, but they can only take him because they run up to him, stun them and do their full combo, and dash away beforfe he has a chance to turn around and start beating the shit out of him. Garen was always a safe pick. Your ult did true damage to the villian, and even it doing true damage to everybody now is okay. Your point, as Garen, was to either split push, or run into the enemy team, tank all of their CC, silence the carry, shred their armor with E, then execute them with R. Now, you can effectively do more damage than yi while also being a tank and also reducing CC's by 60% and also still attacking through the CC. Garen did not need to do this much damage. He. Is. A. Tank. He should not be doing as much damage as bruisers like Renekton and Darius with double the survivability.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:25:27.178+0000) > > Garen is 100% a tank. just because a champion gains extra resistances doesnt turn him into a tank. olaf isnt a tank because his ult grants him 50 armor and mr either. the class of a champion is defined by his role on a team. darius is a carry, so is olaf, so is nasus, so is garen. garen is classified as a fighter. he always was and always will be a fighter. hes a juggernaut. that means hes closer to riven, yasuo, darius and renekton and other carries with his role on a team, than to tanks whos job is to initiate fights, control, and peel. you can protest and throw tantrums about this all you want, but this wont change and its the role he will be balanced around. riot axes mentioned that the only reason the on-hits were removed was because of technical difficulties. he said there were too many edge cases like rammus w, thornmail, shen w negating the entire spin, jax negating the on-hits etc. that would all had to have indually built in exceptions on the spin. he said the strength of the on hits on the spin themselves werent the problem. my guess is the current version on the PBE wont stay in this state. he will either add a real juggernaut steroid to garens kit that replaces villainy (which id prefer), or buff the numbers on the abilities directly.
Rioter Comments
: Change ETERNALS concept to CHAMPION PASS Riot pls!
only if that champion pass is available for blue essence. never should a system around skill expression and champion mastery in league be monetized. they could have implemented announcer packs (especially if theyre client side), map skins and a whole bunch of other cosmetics for that purpose a long time ago. instead theyre monetizing an achievement system that tracks generic stats for your champion, and flares them on enemy death screens to BM them.
Rioter Comments
: "I feel so kited" ~runs down all the melee champs then steps on cait trap. That video was absolute garbage.
> [{quoted}](name=GemJoe,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T09:18:45.350+0000) > > "I feel so kited" ~runs down all the melee champs then steps on cait trap. That video was absolute garbage. he was getting kited a lot, and ended the game pretty much even in kills and deaths. the reason why he still "ran down" some of those champions was, because they made a lot of mistakes.
: Garen gets 19-21 (24 if you go PTA) with a full AS onHit build With that he hits True Damage on anyone under 200 armor. Yes Urgot can keep attacking after 3s but that means nothing when he is dead after 4s Yes Urgot is a different champ. But why play him if You have Garen? (oh right Garen will be perma Banned) Also you see tons of Urgots going OnHit.... Not. Its not a viable build for Urgot. It very much is for Garen and is really the ONLY way to go with the current PBE build. Also there are others on live saying Garen changes are busted. There maybe others talking about Urgot but IDK. Does not mean its not an issue if Im the only one seeing the comparison. Also my ton is not Angry, its (*eye roll* how can a developer like Riot be so stupid)
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T22:23:52.190+0000) > > Garen gets 19-21 (24 if you go PTA) with a full AS onHit build im gonna stop you right here. this is never going to happen for the same reason you dont build full on-hit on urgot. maybe in bottom tier ranked games where frankly people are so bad, that you can make anything work, or if you want to troll normals. remember that PBE games arent representative of actual games on the live servers. garen with a full ad on hit build is going to get cced by anyone with hard cc and then he would die before he ever gets someone in range. the end. he doesnt have a hard gap closer or range to pull it off. want proof? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bB-doQIMJ4 this is a game where the dude specifically built to get around enemy kiting and still got kited. imagine he didnt have built tanky for slows and for lethal tempo and a squishy on hit build instead. one cc on a champion without mobility and a large hitbox and youre dead. **it doesnt work the same way as full ad garen builds dont work on live.** with lethal tempo and an attack speed item, it goes up to 16 spins. and thats going to be it. more isnt feasable.
: 1) How can you read my comments on like forums? Two different users. 2) Urgot has MAX 3 attacks per second while Garen can get to 7 per second My problem is not that Garen is better then Urgot, its the its broken our right. Urgot is has this 50% on hit mechanic but its useless on him because attack speed does not add more attacks to his W. IF it did we would be in the same place as we are with Garen. Garens E also Hits ALL in range of his E and does 25% more + the onHIt to the closes target. Urgot ONLY hits the closest target and per attack does less then Garen. So Garens E does about 50% more damage per hit and hits 2.5x more per second then Urgot. Yes Urgot has his Leg blasts but he has 6 of those Max and Go play Urgot vs Garen and tell me who wins that.... I can give you a hint. He uses a Sword.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T21:25:29.054+0000) > > 1) How can you read my comments on like forums? Two different users. there is only one guy posting on both forums whos complaining about urgot, in the same angry tone and writing stile, spamming every thread with the same arguments and sentence "the rework should never go live". i added 1 and 1 together. youre the same guy. > 2) Urgot has MAX 3 attacks per second while Garen can get to 7 per second urgot can activate his w for an unlimited amount of time. he can activate and reactivate the ability at will. the end. that makes them different abilities. garen gets somewhere between 11 and 16 (if he full on leans into the build) on hit procs over 3 seconds, while urgot gets 30 from range over 10 seconds until garens spin is back off cooldown. urgot can also cast his other abilities during that time while garen cant. urgot is a ranged lane bully. judgement and purge are two different abilities with different advantages and disadvantages even when they both can apply on-hits. stop trying to compare them.
: Unless I see Riot push to PBE removing OnHit from E there is plenty to freak out about.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=k4OqHYaA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-21T21:03:43.585+0000) > > Unless I see Riot push to PBE removing OnHit from E there is plenty to freak out about. the on-hit is not just going to be removed. there is still time to work on it. anyways. your reasoning is basically just that youre salty about garen being able to get an ability similar to urgot. ive read your comments on here, and on the regular forums and its always just about that. your 1:1 comparison doesnt hold up until garen is allowed to just activate his spin and keep it running like urgot can keep his w running, and they add 100 range to it. they are entirely different champions still. garen isnt going to be the same as urgot, as darius isnt the same as garen. youre freaking out over nothing.
Rioter Comments
: Riot CAN NOT go live with Garens E applying onHit effects. Its beyond broken. With just {{item:3153}} he wins every fight he is not 1v5 in (and then he wins if he is not CCed) Even allowing his E to scale up to soooo many hits from one key press is stupid. Urgot gets 3/s Gargen gets 7/s He One shots in the span of his Silence. There is ZERO counter play. He runs up Q>E you are dead.
> [{quoted}](name=LadyVash,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2NH0vhdK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-21T19:17:44.424+0000) > > Riot CAN NOT go live with Garens E applying onHit effects. > > Its beyond broken. With just {{item:3153}} he wins every fight he is not 1v5 in (and then he wins if he is not CCed) > > Even allowing his E to scale up to soooo many hits from one key press is stupid. > > Urgot gets 3/s > Gargen gets 7/s > > He One shots in the span of his Silence. There is ZERO counter play. He runs up Q>E you are dead. a.) urgot is also ranged and mainly uses his own w to trigger his leg procs **and can be activated for far longer than 3 seconds at a time. ** garen gets 11 procs for 50% at level 18 over the course of 3 seconds. urgot gets **30 procs over the course of 10 seconds**, where garens spin goes on cooldown after 3. b.) urgot has his own {{item:3149}} already built into his passive. it scales up to **8% maximum health damage** per leg proc in an aoe, making **48% maximum health damage** from 6 leg procs on his passive. the cooldown scales down to almost no downtime, and he can get bork procs on top of that. with all this in mind, garens on hit spin isnt any crazier in comparison. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ realistically the most on hit items garen will be building with this change is {{item:3149}} and {{item:3748}} every further itemization into on-hits would leave him too squishy. he might be able to snowball lanes off squishier builds, but would still end up getting shut down by ranged champions and cc by midgame. this extra power he gets from on hits is in return to what he loses by removal of the villainy passive and the stats on his w. like people underestimate what villainy did for him. its not just the true damage on the ultimate, but also 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins that he loses with the rework. this was usually around 15% max health true damage over the course of a fight with a full spin, his q and a few auto attacks. more, if the fight was drawn out longer against beefy opponents into a second spin rotation. i expect that the on hits on garens spin may be reduced to 33%. but in return they should make sure that attack speed slows cant drop him below 11 spins at lvl 18 either, so his non on-hit builds dont get trashed by attack speed slows.
: Hail of blades doesn't apply Garen E
the way garens spin updates during the whole time of the ability. so hail of blades speeds up like the first 3 spins as it should, and then it slows down back to base value. so you cant just auto twice into e, and get 110% attack speed for the whole spin. if you want a similar effect, just go lethal tempo. it has a short delay of 1.5 seconds, but if you proc it and then activate jusgement, you get up to 4 extra spins later on in the game.
: I'm obviously exaggerating, I didn't literally mean 5K HP, just that he's insanely tanky. There's no reason for a tank to have massive AOE/On-Hit damage like that.
> [{quoted}](name=Stop Breathing,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T11:52:22.042+0000) > > I'm obviously exaggerating, I didn't literally mean 5K HP, just that he's insanely tanky. There's no reason for a tank to have massive AOE/On-Hit damage like that. well, garen still aint a tank, and he never was. so all is well.
: The rework is 100% as busted as people make it out to be. That might be why - surprise - People are making it out to be busted. His E scales off of attack speed and procs on hit effects. He adds one or two on-hit items to his kit and suddenly - A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC's. Its fucking broken. This would be fine if it required literally ANY amount of skill. You press E and fucking stand next to somebody and they die. Your ult does true damage so people can't build against you anymore because you just get BoRK and Black Cleaver and your armor is gone. Garne right now is doing twice the damage that Tahm Kench did while being twice as Tanky. Tahm Kench didn't have a damaging ult and only had a shield for in-build tankiness. Garen gets free Armor and MR for farming, and gets double that for pressing W. Its fucking laughable that Tahm Kench was too broken but Garen is somehow allowed to have double the tankiness, double the damage, true damage, and doesn't even have to hit the fucking enemy to kill them.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:17:08.770+0000) > > A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC oh, i see. youre making a couple of false assumptions. first off, garen isnt a tank. he never was. hes classified as a fighter. his intentional role is to be a juggernaut. a tanky melee carry, who can indeed deal damage like a marksman while hes hard to take down. but those defensive stats are basically compensation for his kit being entirely limited to melee range, and not having mobility. he also doesnt have any utility beyond a single target cc. those are huge factors. you shouldnt think of garen in the lines of a tank, but more of a less mobile version of {{champion:92}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:58}} and so on. he is the same type of champion as {{champion:75}} second, youre listing his rework, ok. but the attack speed scaling in itself isnt even a buff. what it does is to bring attack speed up in cost effectiveness to the same level as flat AD. though the attack speed scaling, a {{item:1043}} becomes about as cost effective as 1000 gold worth in AD for garen as offensive stat. this is opening up his build pathes, but technically doesnt add power. the power shift comes mostly from an 8% reduced isolation damage, 20 less armor and magic resistance on his w, and 1% max health true damage on auto attacks and spins against the villain that he loses. in return they added the on-hit effects to the spin so garen can scale with items like {{item:3153}} and {{item:3077}} and can proc conqueror with the spin, and use lethal tempo. like garen on the live server does actually shit for damage and way less than he should, because his entire kit is balanced around fighting the villain. he has a massive steroid against one person on the enemy team. the whole concept is problematic for garen players, because it can often lead to situations where the villain never lands on a target that we need to be able to fight. we have no control over our own juggernaut steroid. this is why power is pushed back into his base kit out of the removal of the villainy passive, and out of some of his defensive stats.
: The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive, and the only thing he has in his kit that helps him survive is an incredibly easy to dodge Q. All of Garen's abilities are either impossible to miss or near impossible, he can step out of a fight and get all of his health back and win every trade, and his W gives him 60% damage reduction when activate and 60% tenacity when activated. Imagine this for a moment. You take away Darius's E, give his W a silence, make his ult do max damage at 0 stacks and make it do true damage. Now give him a free 30 armor and magic resist, 60% damage reduction and tenacity, and a free warmogs. Sounds broken, right? Exactly. Thats because it fucking is.
> [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:37:04.306+0000) > > The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive darius gets rewarded with 240 AD, bleed damage and resets on his ultimate when he gets stacked up. garens spin still relies on positioning and is mostly the same as on live servers, and hes not going to carry when he doesnt get ahead. when he does, he doesnt carry harder than most other champions who are snowballing. pick a fight with {{champion:92}} at level 1 and shes going to take 80% of your health with her q and autos. feed her and shes going to snowball to 1v9 the game. garen has increased damage and snowball potential for the loss of tank stats on his w, and the loss of the villainy damage, but doesnt do anything other carries dont already do. > Sounds broken, right? actually no. you can make any champion sound op by listing the benefits of their kit without the downsides.
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SexySpins

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