: But is AoE burst a good thing. One of the goals that Riot wanted to archive on Talon update was to make him less of a Suicide Bomb that blinks in and does massive AoE burst then either kill his opponents or die. The idea of AP Rengar looks pretty much the same. However what i love about champions that are able to build in different ways is that they are less of "Oh they took X champion i can't play my favorite champion" kind of feeling.
Problem with Talon was that that was his only option - Rengar would have more options. If a player is forced to be a suicide bomb every game then that can lead to frustrations by players when it's less effective/result in the suicide bomb dealing enough damage that it's frustrating for enemy players. If a player has the ability to choose to be an AOE bomb when it's effective, it's less frustrating, and allows the damage to be tuned in a way that causes less problems for opponents.
: Rengar Changes Feedback Thread
Hey August! Just popping in to give you an argument to allow AP rengar to be a thing: It provides him with a lot more flexibility and options in ARAM. AP Rengar has AOE burst while AD Rengar has single target. Single target will be better for killing one person and making it out alive, but AOE burst would be far better in teamfights even if he kills nobody and dies after bursting everyone down to 15%. Giving him the option to choose between the two, and adapt to be an AP damage dealer if his team needs it is something that I think wouldn't harm him at all and open up a number of interesting choices in terms of itemisation.
: Heya! > So I wanted to test PF cait's animations a bit and they seem REALLY smooth I love them. I went into a custom with default and it feels like there might've been some minor touchups to her other skins auto animations? Or that might just be me not being used to PBE ping so I can't tell the difference that well. In this case, nope, just PFC received new animations, and her other skins are as-is. > Anyway, when I built runaans default cait's main autoattack sometimes vanished entirely but still did damage, minor visual bug can someone confirm that's not just me imagining things at 1am? This could potentially be the ping on the PBE environment, or perhaps on the build you were on. I've loaded her up internally (the build that's going out today), and I didn't have any disappearing particles. Please lemme know if you see something like this re-occurring! > Her hair looks a bit off to me. (Ok, a lot off) The front and the top in particular seems a bit glued, if that makes sense. Please fix this part, it's the only part that really bugs me. The hair itself is meant to be tightly pulled back, with a small poofed out chunk on the top. That said, does it change how you're viewing the hair? > I'd kinda like it if her headshot animation for the pre-6 gun got a bit more interesting. Post-6 gun has this amazing animation, and I think adding a little bit of extra flair to the pre-6 one would be a nice touch. Considerations could be a small red particle swirl around the barrel, stronger pumping of the pistons underneath, or simply adjusting her animation slightly to give headshots a bit of a heavier feeling by making her crouch down a bit more for them. We definitely want the upgraded weapon to feel cooler and more powerful, both because you have your ult, but it's also the gun you're going to have for the majority of the game (and will have a bunch of damage as the game progresses!) Changing up several animations can be a tad difficult at this point in development, since we'd need to re-export the rig (which means retesting all animations), *but*, I can definitely suggest the particle changes that you've mentioned! > Her traps have these random numbers counting up, and it seems like they jump to a final number. I'd prefer it if they ended smoothly instead of jumping 20 numbers upwards or so near the end. This one was an intentional design choice, and was also carried over into her ult overlay. Do you find it distracting? > Her dance has a bit of a heavy throw against her gun when she's leaning against it, if that could be a bit lighter it'd be nice. The strength with which she throws herself against it doesn't seem very relaxing. Since the gun is 'floating' it's giving a sense of push back. I totally agree that if it were a regular wall, it wouldn't be as fitting. If nothing else, I'd be happy to poke our animator about it and get this thoughts. :) Thanks for the feedback! ^-^
Yeah, I know what the thoughts were behind the hair, but it's just not working for me. Most of her hair is pulled back quite cleanly, but then there's this annoying tuft on top of her head that puffs out quite a bit and isn't really fastened at all. It's wayyy too big and just looks like it doesn't belong there at all. I don't understand why Caitlyn would choose to have that sort of hairstyle in the first place. For the sides, they don't bother me as much, but they feel too long. They're sort of glued to her chest and that just makes it look unnatural to me, on top of being too symmetric. Shortening them would help, along with making the part on her face less...perfect. For the numbers, I don't find them particularly distracting, but they still sort of bother me a bit. The numbers on the traps make me think of a progress bar while they're arming and collecting some data, and having them suddenly jump to some arbitrary number is weird. Likewise, if they're not representing progress, why are they counting up smoothly at the start? I'd prefer it if they stopped smoothly or lacked the smooth count. For her ult numbers, I don't really have a problem with them other than I sort of wish that the counter went over to 4 digits instead of resetting after 3. It felt like it was charging up her ult's power kinda, and having the number reset is weird. I think it would be a really sweet touch if the number that her ult counts up to in the center is related to how much damage her ult will deal, while the number at the top right is related to the distance from the target. Or something. Maybe even a third number relating to how long before her ult fires. I think having the numbers mean something rather than being arbitrary would be really cool minor interaction that I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate once they realise it. For the dance, yeah, it's supposed to give some pushback due to floating. My meaning is that the strength with which she throws herself against it is too hard - she's leaning against an object, not throwing herself onto a trampoline. It harms the casual relaxed pose that she's using.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Pulsefire Caitlyn!
Gonna put my feedback here as well. So I wanted to test PF cait's animations a bit and they seem REALLY smooth I love them. I went into a custom with default and it feels like there might've been some minor touchups to her other skins auto animations? Or that might just be me not being used to PBE ping so I can't tell the difference that well. Anyway, when I built runaans default cait's main autoattack sometimes vanished entirely but still did damage, minor visual bug can someone confirm that's not just me imagining things at 1am? Feedback. Note that I love the skin and I think it's absolutely amazing and am for sure getting it regardless, these are just some things that would make it even better for me * Her hair looks a bit off to me. (Ok, a lot off) The front and the top in particular seems a bit glued, if that makes sense. Please fix this part, it's the only part that **really** bugs me. * I'd kinda like it if her headshot animation for the pre-6 gun got a bit more interesting. Post-6 gun has this amazing animation, and I think adding a little bit of extra flair to the pre-6 one would be a nice touch. Considerations could be a small red particle swirl around the barrel, stronger pumping of the pistons underneath, or simply adjusting her animation slightly to give headshots a bit of a heavier feeling by making her crouch down a bit more for them. * Her traps have these random numbers counting up, and it seems like they jump to a final number. I'd prefer it if they ended smoothly instead of jumping 20 numbers upwards or so near the end. * Her dance has a bit of a heavy throw against her gun when she's leaning against it, if that could be a bit lighter it'd be nice. The strength with which she throws herself against it doesn't seem very relaxing.
: Galio Feedback Thread
Galio has a VO line that goes something like "Can someone get these pigeons out of my head?" Could that be changed from a normal VO line (which I believe it is currently though am not sure) to a line he says to Quinn?
: > Also wish his E could go over walls. I'm pretty sure that's a no go. They don't want someone in the same class as him having the "true mobility" that squishier targets get. Think of E like a Nautalus hook.
Yeah, it would probably not be the best idea, but if they're uncertain whether or not to let him do that and remove some power elsewhere, then they can use that feedback to consider it.
: Galio Feedback Thread
Personally, I felt that his base stats seem to be fairly high, but as we all know PBE is horrible at judging that and it may have just been the matchups I was in. I also felt that his base AD makes it a bit hard to CS (Although it's relatively high) as he's an AP tank who won't get AD/AS in runes or masteries and doesn't have a short spell to help him farm like Mundo's Q. (This may also be influenced by me playing with EUW ping) I feel that increasing it by 2 AD at lvl 1 to give him roughly the same AD as Gragas would help. My biggest issue is that it feels to me that you pushed his numbers high enough that his actual mechanics don't have the strength they deserve. Examples: I felt that his E range should be a bit longer, because with the hop back it feels like he's prepping up a dash similar to the way that Zac does, only to have it be roughly the same range as many other dashes (Vi Q) which just feels off to me. I felt that his ult range should be significantly larger, particularly tier 2 and tier 3. I had issues utilising his ult in the game that I played, particularly the rank 6 one. If I'm midlane or toplane, the only way that I can use my ult is in coordination with the jungler in a gank, and his ult isn't fantastic when used offensively - it helps secure a kill if the enemy is locked down temporarily and still has escapes available, but for most other cases it wouldn't make any difference. Midgame I had a lot more opportunities to make use of it, but it still would've helped to have greater range. His interaction with TLD on Q felt like a pain to deal with, and his Q damage seemed relatively high. This could also be that his Q is annoying to dodge/avoid/I'm not used to it yet. Maybe an indicator on the connection spot would help. Also ask the playtest team what they think about his mana costs please, he seemed to be a bit too liberal in his use of spells and his combo to me. His W seemed rather weak to me. It's really strong numerically and utility, but it doesn't have the same OOMPH as his other skills, and it's difficult to combo this with Q to get the damage off. This is an example of where I don't feel that his mechanics are supported enough - to me his gameplay pattern looks like "Lock someone down in the Q DoT", yet his Q connect damage seems high enough and the duration seems low enough along with his other skills that trying to do so doesn't seem worthwhile. His Q particle effects seem a bit hard to spot to me, I'd prefer something with more of a harder edge that isn't as blurry to spot the connection point more easily. Also wish his E could go over walls. Right now it seems to me that the most optimal way to build him is full tank or AP tank. I think this is fine and good and I have no issues with it. Note that I am not a Galio player and don't even own him on live, these are my impressions as if he was a new champion. I hope that you can modify his numbers around to give him higher highs and lower lows.
: Solcrushed, can you explain how the Damage Reduction works? Is this done pre or post Armor or Magic Resist Mitigation?
It doesn't matter. Let's say you have 20% damage reduction to physical damage from armor, and your W gives you 20% damage reduction too. 100%\*0.8\*0.8 = 64%, regardless of which is calculated first.
: Hunt of the Blood Moon game mode available shortly on PBE
Could Quinn be added to the list? Most of us Quinn mains consider her to be an assassin primary and marksman secondary, so not having her in this list feels wrong and makes us feel a bit...underappreciated/ignored/misunderstood by Riot. We've been claiming our role as assassin/marksman since before the rework, and both us and Twitch are labeled as Marksmen/Assassins....
: Hey! Thanks for taking the time away from class to shoot feedback my way - hope I didn't interrupt too much of your time. :) > Please try to add some golden armor to Valor? He's pretty bare, and Quinn and Valor always have matching armor. Adding armor to Valor would also let you fix his head to make him a proper dove! He's still WIP, we're working to get textures on him later this week! I'll pass this feedback on to the character artist and see if we can add some of this. I think armor would definitely help him out for this skin to make him match Quinn and look more badass. > Her new hair color looks a bit strange. We've been experimenting but somehow nothing really looks perfect. One thing I've noticed is that all heartseeker skins have matching hair and glove colors. Quinn right how has a LOT of white on her head/upper body, and then the rest is less so which doesn't really work too well. I'd be happy to give context here! From game height, the pink hair mixed with her skin tone made her look like a pink blob from game height, so we opted for a lavender color that would push the hair a bit further off from her skin tone. In the process, this also better aligned her hair with the Heartseeker line (Heartseeker Orianna, for example). > Quinn's legs should just be changed to leggings, the way they look now looks pretty awkward, the accents just appear random and off. They are leggings now! I'm assuming there may be some confusion because of the thigh accents? > Quinn's right hand armplate looks a bit flat and could use some more depth, it looks like the hearts are just painted on rather than a part of the armor like on the crossbow. > Have you tried giving her red shoes? We thought red shoes look quite nice. I also think her shoes look a bit fat ish when viewed from the side, from the front and behind they're fine. Removing or thinning the heel a bit would help. We did try a few different colors, but landed on white. We did talk about the feel as well, it was something that was brought up in development, but we wanted her to be a bit more feminine, but also wanted a thicker heel because it was more practical for running around. ;) > I would quite like the wings on her back attached to her quiver to be a tad larger. Or not so much larger but a bit longer to extend downwards. Not by much, just a small touch, but it would make it look much better imo. We had it larger in development, but there were some clipping issues into her model when she was running, so we had to size them down a bit to minimize that occurrence. > Overall I think the biggest problem right now is the color distribution. The darker red looks much nicer than the bright pink that we had, and I've warmed up to the skirt after looking at PBE. We felt the colors didn't align with Heartseeker, and agreed with the majority of feedback around it yesterday, which is why we made some pretty heavy changes to the colors of the skin. > I like the sound and visual effects, but I think her W could use some touchups along the edge of the vision revealed. I also think her normal crossbow sounds could sound a bit...floofier? Since she's a 975 RP skin, she isn't going to receive a new sound kit, aside from the quality of life changes, which are adding dove doos to her recall, Heightened Senses and her joke. I can talk to the VFX artist about the VFX feedback. > The back of her head still appears a bit dull to me if you can find something to do there. From the front and the side with the knot it looks great, but whenever we play blue side it doesn't look anywhere near as good. Hmmm. We can dabble with that. Not 100% sure what we could add without it being super busy because she does have the heart accent on the front of the hair. > Quinn's recall has a MAJOR issue: After recalling Valor reappears on her arm. This works for her default recall since Val lands on her arm, but for this recall Valor just flew away with a letter. Suddenly warping on top of Quinn's arm makes absolutely no sense. This isn't something that will change, unfortunately. Since she is a 975 RP skin, she doesn't receive new animations, which means there isn't going to be a custom wind-down animation that would change how she animated when back to spawn. > Perhaps a texture was missing? This is what I'm seeing now - http://imgur.com/a/qufNC If this is what you're seeing, would you mind being more descriptive as to why you think it's off or doesn't look right? > Random black dots appear on the back of her skirt when facing upwards in some posesRandom black dots appear on the back of her skirt when facing upwards in some poses Do you happen to have character inking on? That may be why in some cases - we should be able to adjust that so it doesn't happen, though. Which poses are you seeing this on? > Recalling while facing downwards causes panty vision. (I mean you can keep this if you want....just make sure the visuals for it look proper if you do :P) Somehow, I am not surprised that someone discovered this, haha. Since we've added full leggings, this should make the recall a bit more... appropriate! Thanks again for taking the time to compile all of this! I hope I clarified and hit all of your points. If you have any follow up questions or feedback, please feel free to hit me up!
My whole issue on the hair color is that we have white hair, white collar, white skin, white arm-thingys all really close to each other so we have a lot of very similar colors which are hard to tell apart, and then we have barely any white after it trails away from her chest. I think if the heel is staying that thick, then making it a bit shorter would also help a bit. When I complain about the color distribution, I mean color distribution on the changed model :P I like the new colors, just the issue with the white being all in the middle and then her entire legs being purple with some accents which (now) look out of place since the stockings were changed. It looks odd because you get this massive black outline along the tip of her crossbow which makes it seem strange I'll need to log back on and go into a custom to check the dots, so I'll reply about that at some point over the weekend. No custom recall backswing makes me sad :c Thanks for responding to all of our feedback!
: [Closed] PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Heartseeker Quinn!
Feedback from me & some from the discord discussion cos I need to get back to my coursework! Valor: Please try to add some golden armor to Valor? He's pretty bare, and Quinn and Valor always have matching armor. Adding armor to Valor would also let you fix his head to make him a proper dove! Quinn: Her new hair color looks a bit strange. We've been experimenting but somehow nothing really looks perfect. One thing I've noticed is that all heartseeker skins have matching hair and glove colors. Quinn right how has a LOT of white on her head/upper body, and then the rest is less so which doesn't really work too well. Quinn's right hand armplate looks a bit flat and could use some more depth, it looks like the hearts are just painted on rather than a part of the armor like on the crossbow. Quinn's legs should just be changed to leggings, the way they look now looks pretty awkward, the accents just appear random and off. Have you tried giving her red shoes? We thought red shoes look quite nice. I also think her shoes look a bit fat ish when viewed from the side, from the front and behind they're fine. Removing or thinning the heel a bit would help. I would quite like the wings on her back attached to her quiver to be a tad larger. Or not so much larger but a bit longer to extend downwards. Not by much, just a small touch, but it would make it look much better imo. Overall I think the biggest problem right now is the color distribution. The darker red looks much nicer than the bright pink that we had, and I've warmed up to the skirt after looking at PBE. I like the sound and visual effects, but I think her W could use some touchups along the edge of the vision revealed. I also think her normal crossbow sounds could sound a bit...floofier? The back of her head still appears a bit dull to me if you can find something to do there. From the front and the side with the knot it looks great, but whenever we play blue side it doesn't look anywhere near as good. Quinn's recall has a MAJOR issue: After recalling Valor reappears on her arm. This works for her default recall since Val lands on her arm, but for this recall Valor just flew away with a letter. Suddenly warping on top of Quinn's arm makes absolutely no sense. Minor bug issues: Laughing while pointing the character upwards makes the underside of the crossbow look strange Random black dots appear on the back of her skirt when facing upwards in some poses Recalling while facing downwards causes panty vision. (I mean you can keep this if you want....just make sure the visuals for it look proper if you do :P)
: > [{quoted}]The changes don't even make sense. The rank one damage is 5, and the rank 5 damage is less than half of live's value. The AP scaling is reduced too. They added a slow once again to force AD for auto attacks. They changed the bonus AD scaling to total AD, like I've said before, to force AD playstyle. The only difference between Total Attack Damage and Bonus Attack Damage scaling is that TAD includes AD you gain from leveling up. This causes E's damage to go up naturally as Shaco gains levels, freeing him up to put points in Q ^^
What method do you use to sort the threads by if this is the third one you comment on o.o Just curious. (Here's hoping my assassin items thread gets love too)
: [PBE - Jungle Notes] Notes on updated Jungle for 6.22
Hey Xypherous, After having played with these plants quite a bit, I've come to severely dislike them for multiple reasons. They clutter up the map, and don't add to my decisionmaking at all since I can't see when a plant is growing and when it's spawned or which type it is at a glance, and I only have a 30 second window - nowhere near enough time to prepare the future. ABOVE ALL THOUGH: I am a Quinn main, and she's pretty much the only thing I've been playing on PBE. Procing the plants with an autoattack causes Quinn's ult to end whenever I want to use a plant, which is never worth it. THEY ARE NONEXISTANT TO ME IN 95% OF CASES BECAUSE OF THIS, PLANTS ARE SIMPLY UNUSABLE FOR QUINN. PLEASE. Do something about that. We would absolutely LOVE to have a buff similar to mobility boots where procing plants and killing wards doesn't throw us out of our ult, it's been on our wish list for a while. It's like the mobility boots problem except on steroids because we have a channel time and a mana cost.
: That is true, however I still feel like it's too restrictive... there could be a few "secondary" Lethality items that give like 10 L and more AD or more CDR perhaps. Right now I feel like I have to always build these 3 - Duskblade is weaker without the other 2... they definitely work better in conjunction :/
Actually duskblade is the strongest single item out of the three, each of the others just add 40 damage to its true damage but it starts out with 90 by default, 107 with the mastery, and 150 with runes. Extra 40 isn't a huge amount considering the amount that's already there.
: I just think we should have more than 3 items available... basically right now all AD assassins build either all 3 or just the 2 (they sometimes skip Edge of Night) and then they build random AD fighter items like Hydra etc. I wish we had like 5-6 options. Right now we can accumulate only 60 Lethality :/
Precision gives 8.5 lethality and you can get 19 lethality from runes - more once they convert armor pen runes to lethality runes. That's like 88 lethality at level 18, and most squishies have less than that at level 18. We don't really need more than 60 lethality from items, but it would be nice to get another lethality item so that we can skip over ghostblade or EoN if we don't want one of those. As-is the buildpath will probably end up quite stale.
: BF sword is a 1 slot item to easily build into a giant buy item how is it unnecessary? If you get killed early that's your fault, you don't see adcs complaining when they die and can't get bf sword they wipe their tears and go back and try to farm. That's why it's a strategy game if you're just constantly buying duskblade first every single game you're simply disrespecting your opponent. Current rengar is actually.....His new play pattern is cool though. Lethality IS suppose to feel weaker than alternatives early when ahead, that was the point.... Varus/Jayce are special cases their poke builds returned when duskblade was released. So it's not necessarily abuse cases for those 2 kinda.... While I still think it'll be better to see how it plays out, lethality is still new and live is a different beast from pbe, but I still wish ghostblade interacted somehow with being unseen would be so cool. Yea but unlike assassin marksmen hyperscale with AS+Crit, but since armor pene was more early-mid/late focus and youmuu gave AS marksmen could pick it up and feel high value. So I'm still against immediately re-adding AS to GB, if anything they can release different crit items and fix certain marksmen crit/AS synergy(looking at you jhin) and move them off a lingering feeling of wanting lethality/armor pene over their intended crit+as. Cause overall specifically for quinn her crit build is still good, just doesn't spike as early as one would like. I'll skip this one, I hope I had a reply in the previous paragraph. I can agree ghostblade needs touchups as it needs more thought of when you want to active, while lethality I feel is in a good starting place if it needs something down the road they can do something. And there's never anything wrong with asking for bug fixes, they make a champion closer to their intended design making it easier for balance changes to happen to them. I'm kinda sleepy so I hope none of this was rambling and I replied properly.
I'm not complaining if I die and am unable to buy a BF sword. That's perfectly normal and realistic. What I am complaining about is if I get an early lead I have issues buying duskblade. Trying to go for the strongest item first should be perfectly fine if I am ahead, but considering the out of combat movement speed and the roaming power most assassins have gotten it is simply unrealistic to expect an assassin to save up 1300g as a second component that early in the game. It goes something like *Get a kill level 4*->**buy 2 daggers & consumables**->*get a kill level 6*->**buy dirk and have 630g left over** From there I have to save up a LOT of gold in order to get my next component, which is a major pain since what I really want to do is roam around and help out my teammates or keep trying to kill my enemy laner and possibly get a tower or a dragon, I want to be useful on the map. If the recipe was changed I could go something like *get a kill level 4*->**buy pickaxe & consumables**->*get a kill level 6*->**buy 3 daggers**->*Get a double kill level 9*->**finish duskblade** A much smoother and kinder buildpath which promotes fighting and killing and roaming which is what assassins want to do, rather than sitting around and farming until the gold total is at a nice amount. Whenever I DO end up having enough gold for BF sword it's a great buy, but more often than not my early leads end up with me backing at annoying gold totals and not being able to do much about that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A ranged AD caster will naturally prefer armor pen over crit/AS. That's just how it is. I've been experimenting more and finding that lethality isn't as bad as I made it sound, as I stated in my edit, just that it feels slightly undertuned in midgame and early/mid. I think adjusting dirk and modifying lethality maths would do the trick to solve my complaints perfectly. As long as ghostblade doesn't end up being super gold efficient when the active is up, I don't think that it would end up being "abused" by people that shouldn't be abusing it in the first place, AS or no AS. As far as Jhin in particular goes, I think him going armor pen is to be expected and not a bad thing, just his %missing HP synergy with armor pen is. Right now I'm expecting (if GB gets a better active) that we Quinn players go DB->crit or DB->lethality depending on which playstyle would suit the game we're in more. I think it would be healthy if Jhin was in a similar situation, where his pen build is when he wants more ability damage with Q W R and his crit build was when he wants more MS to run around the fight quicker and the RFC range increase and better tank killing ability. If they changed Jhin's passive to work like Ashe's and his crits would proc the %missing HP damage, then that would work out well imo for example. Just as a 30s thought, not something to take as a serious suggestion. A different thing they could do which might work out well is to have a reverse synergy of sorts, while the active is up every AA on enemy champions reduces ability cooldowns by 0.5 seconds. Supports the people that want it and supports AS scaling without opening up abuse cases. There are so many options, but I'd just want them to do something, ANYTHING, to make the GB active feel useful and unique. With all the movespeed thrown around, the GB active feels more like I'm getting a 10% ms increase than a 20%.
: DB is intended as a BF sword item due to assassins having no use for it otherwise which was the right choice since it only takes up 1 item slot, if you'd farm it's an easy buy. They had to remove AS because assassins aren't needy of AS nor crit, and it made the item abusable by ADCs so no to adding MS on it. However I do agree with a rework where you gain more if unseen. The channel time could be visible to enemies even if it's an out of combat channel, however they'll do that cd increase if it releases too strong. Lethality wasn't designed for marksmen, armor pene instead of crit was an abuse case. Lethality is intended to not snowball you should have read that.... Of course early AD would be stronger. I disagree assassins are to excel at pick-offs compared to other roles their synergy with out of combat MS should be more apparent not just from 1 item buy (ghostblade). Plus it'd be dumb to not spread it around then the price for an item would skyrocket retardedly. They already gave each assassin proper non-pusher level waveclear except kass what more do you wany that tiamat or echo/protobelt can't fix? Not to mention adding even more lethality would be dumb because squishies would simply take too much damage from 4 or 5 lethality items and if they tone down the damage scaling buying lethality early would be unrewarding. A max of 3 lethality items at once is the best that can happen. However ghostblade can be reworked so there is hope, while I'll be sad cause youmuu been around since forever. The AS was removed due to adcs, all it has is ad, cdr, and lethality with a speed boost. I wouldn't really regret the active being changed to something like the earlier suggestion of interacting with when you're unseen but I hope it could retain some form of MS increase. Nid is actually tagged incorrectly she can assassinate but she's more of a bruiser/mage to be more specific a diver. Kass sadly didn't even get his tralalala(lol) touched I guess they have something planned for him but acting like they don't While quinn I'd say is more marksmen/skirmisher, sure she has burst but her high synergy with crit+as is still there, she has a powerful defensive tool, and high damage from ranged AA which is core of a marksman. Overall it should be a nerf to any ADC who built higher amounts of armor pene now they have to wait till mid-game when it has power. Plus those adc still have crit builds which just lost flavor cause armor pene worked early/mid. This is the way it should be, it'll be much easier to balance, not to mention it doesn't fully lock out armor pene adcs but lowers the chance of just completely running away with early games. Even lane bullies like mf/luci/quinn/ezr/corki /jhin and so on were to powerspike at mid-game to late and close games before end game not early-late which armor pene was doing constantly and causing issues for assassins. I know I typed a lot but the asassin changes are really good to not only lower balance messes of armor pene adcs allowing buffs to their intended crit builds but weakening/removing AS+crit assassins thus making their intended paths clearer and balancable. (crit+as on assassins while not as noticeable of a balance issue as tank assassins/fizz's old w/ekko's w/eve perma stealth/etc, it was causing an issue of assassins, who should be burst duelist, having sustained damage.) So from both sides of the coin the changes are fine and great if quinn does get hit hard which I doubt she can receive a buff down the road. My main concern is youmuus though it does need a slight touchup of interesting. Also kass, kass really could use some loving, now he's the only assassin who can't jungle, has the worst pseudo-waveclear and really doesn't do anything until late game, i'm not even confident to say mid-game.
There is no reason for a BF sword to be a useful component for assassins, but there is an argument against it. If I get a kill early and am forced to back, then I am unable to pick up a BF sword. If I get another kill, then that happens again. By playing aggressive and snowballing my lead, I am putting myself in an annoying position if I want to rush duskblade due to constantly backing with annoying gold totals. Changing the recipe would help with that, and it would also make the itemization paths a lot more versatile too. Getting first blood should not put you in a bad position unless you mismanage the minion waves. If you look up champion classes, under Riot's new classification Quinn is marksman/assassin. I would say that she is assassin/marksman. I don't think you come close to changing my mind because of all the hundreds of games of experience I have with her and how she plays. It would be like saying Rengar is a fighter/skirmisher. Getting more items should always make a champion stronger. Lethality is intended not to be oppressive when ahead, but I don't think it's intended to feel weaker than alternatives when ahead. I agree that it was an abuse case on Draven, Lucian, and MF. However, Quinn has had ghostblade/brutalizer as one of her core items since her release. I don't think I can agree that Varus abuses it either. Lethality should be items to be picked up by ANYONE who wants their abilities to hurt more, not just by people that just want the strongest early spikes possible. Giving GB some attack speed which helps people that want it for ability damage but doesn't help people that want it for the strongest 1 item spike in the game would be fine I think. It would make it less of a pure assassin item and also let it be used by fighters and certain marksmen. The whole problem with ghostblade and duskblade right now is that they provide such immense early power and that's why some marksmen are abusing it, not because GB gives attack speed. Quinn has spiked at early->mid for her entire history and built accordingly. Crit build works on her but does not support her assassin playstyle anywhere near as well (though it can be used to assassinate). I'm fairly happy with duskblade and EoN, just ghostblade and lethality in general need some touchups. (And honestly I hope you don't mind me wishing for Quinn bugfixes while I'm at it, just so that we get some love as well).
Rioter Comments
: PBE Bugs and Feedback Thread: Star Guardian Jinx!
I said this already in a reply to you on the normal boards, but I still think that in Jinx's splashart the crazy in her eyes should be toned down a bit. She's still slightly more on-edge than I originally imagined from the preview after listening to her voiceover ingame, but I still don't think she should have eyes on the level of insanity as firecracker or slayer, and that a more playful expression would much better fit her attitude and the pose she's making. Other than that, I quite like this skin. Something in the animation for her dance seems a bit off, though that might just be that it's so chaotic it's hard to keep track of everything. In her W zap VFX I'd expect the warning indicator to be blue, but it was pink after all (change? :D) The animation for her ult is amazing and I love it. 10/10 Am also quite happy with the way her hair ended up.
: I hate to say it, but this one really misses the mark for me. Obviously, just my first impressions here, based off the couple images you've shared. * **Color Scheme** Classic Nami, River Spirit Nami, and URF Nami **all** already have a blue, green, and purple color palette. The shades are slightly darker/muted on this skin, but it's still very similar to three choices that we already have for Nami. * **Model/Design** Her staff is great, but the design of Nami herself is a bit underwhelming. The angler fish light is a great idea, but it blends into her mohawk fin and doesn't sell the idea of a lure when looking at her from most angles. The mohawk and back fins create a weird silhouette, almost like the mane of a horse. I don't hate the idea of a mohawk, but it would look better if it was more spiky or broken up, rather than a big solid block around her head. The shape of her tail is very similar to River Spirit Nami's. I'm not sure what the fins/horns/ears on the sides of her head are supposed to be. The spiky fins on her forearms are cool, though. * **Spell Effects** After seeing all of the spell effects in motion on the PBE, they look pretty great. The darker particles on Q and E fit well with the skin and the spooky fish in the tidal wave looks great. I didn't know if I'd like the jellyfish W from the screenshots, but it does look pretty good in-game. The voice effects are just alright. I think I could live without them. They don't have the same level of change that some other skins have had. This version of Nami just feels too much like the Nami that we already have, rather than an alternate dark version. It feels like a watered-down version of a spooky skin. I've been looking forward to a darker Nami skin since she was released and there has been a lot of great fan concepts that have been floating around. I'm sure you've seen a lot of these already, but here are some of the fan concepts that feel much more unique and striking. I'd love to see something like these. * shockowaffel's Sea Witch Nami - [One](http://shockowaffel.deviantart.com/art/Sea-witch-Nami-splash-art-497911500?q=gallery%3AShockowaffel%2F15632203&qo=17) / [Two](http://shockowaffel.deviantart.com/art/Sea-witch-Nami-concept-art-517743140) / [Three](http://shockowaffel.deviantart.com/art/Sea-Witch-Nami-392001915) * VegaNya's [Noxus Nami](http://veganya.deviantart.com/art/Nami-for-Noxus-531230280) * Taylor Fischer's [Deep Sea Nami](http://artintheart.tumblr.com/post/46523232304/more-progress-on-the-deepsea-nami-idea-cmon-riot) * VanchaMarl's [Spectral Reaper Nami](http://vanchamarl.deviantart.com/art/Spectral-Reaper-Nami-425736321) * Lizzie-Bean's [Sharktopus Nami](http://lizzie-bean.deviantart.com/art/Blood-in-the-Water-501693420) * PeppermintBat's [Shark Nami](http://peppermintbat.deviantart.com/art/Shark-Nami-skin-concept-request-473918222) * And even RiotPenguin's [Blood Moon Nami](http://riotpenguin.blogspot.com/2016/01/blood-moon-nami.html) Individual design choices aside, the thing that all of these concepts have in common is that they fully commit to the dark/spooky theme. They take the idea all the way. Riot's should embrace the theme, as well, instead of taking normal pretty Nami and just putting angler fish in her emote. I understand that it might be too far into the process to make any huge changes to this skin. Very rarely do I think that a new skin that you guys put out needs to undergo a rework, but this is one of them. **Realistic feedback:** Please adjust the color palette, if nothing else. Anything that isn't blue and purple. Maybe some greys and reds. Thanks for reading and for all the work you guys do. I'll edit in any additional feedback, after seeing the skin in action. **Edit**: Splash art quality and layout is really awesome. However, it perfectly illustrates the "here's another pretty Nami face" feeling that I was talking about above. It just looks like classic Nami, instead of a new concept.
Just saying that I agree with this, but I also want to add something on. Her belly looks a bit odd to me, the part where the fins go out to the side. Belly/leg/fin part. From the front it looks like you attempted to give Nami an hourglass figure/pretty female figure, which just doesn't suit the skin at all. From the side as well I think it looks a bit odd, I get what it's supposed to do for the visuals but I'm not feeling it at all.
: So in order this to work, client should ping all the servers every few seconds.. how many of them one region has? mmm.. a few thousand? Maybe more. Seems okay but it won't be accurate up until you connect to the server where your current match is being hosted on. It's always a different one ;)
I mean really all that it would need to do is send a ping on starting the queue, and that would be enough. No more needed.
: Testing Champ Mastery Levels 6 and 7
You definitely read my reply to your previous thread on the topic. These adjustments to the plan don't change my view at all. Champion mastery is only champion mastery when the main trigger is how good you are at a champion. If champion mastery is limited by something like hextech, which is limited by the amount of chests you get freely (unless you buy them which would be REALLY stupid for mastery), then it doesn't directly tie into how good you are at the champion. The limiting factor should be the mastery portion, not the hextech portion. If there was an option to either combine 3 tokens+ blue essence OR combine 12 tokens or something, then it would sound a lot better to me, though I still wouldn't view it as ideal. As long as hextech crafting limits my ability to get rank 6 and 7 on the champions that I am actually REALLY good at, I will never agree with your proposed system for mastery levels 6 and 7. I'm not going to go into detail about how much this would upset me, I think I've done so enough in the previous thread. Also just as a side note - for testing purposes the numbers seem fine, but for actual live gameplay I think the number of tokens is a bit low. I managed to get an S+ on my second rift game as orianna EVER, and I honestly consider myself a poor orianna. Numbers like 7 & 10 and making S and S+ give twice the number of tokens respectively sounds a lot better to me.
: With the nerf to her E damage, why is her E also getting a mana increase? If she's gonna be able to land more rockets, she'll be using more mana that way anyhow. Not a Jinx player, just wondering.
>E nerfs are to compensate for the increased lane power this is likely to give her. I mean personally I'd vote to wait and see, but his reasoning is already in the post.
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes. Feedback wanted
So I tried the changes out, both as and against Sona. I'm not a Sona player, I'm an ADC main who also has a LOT of Nami games under his belt. Nami and Sona are often viewed as competing with each other in the same space. I did really enjoy playing Sona before her rework though. Just a note on my perspective. > Do you like the new changes? Is she more fun? Do you hate the changes (especially the aura size reduction)? Would this make you want to play Sona less? I kinda like the aura radius changes, or rather I like the direction it's gone. On live I feel it is far too simple to tag multiple allies with the auras, most of the time tagging allies with it happens automatically. On PBE it's far too difficult though. Somewhere in between would work well I feel - 300-315 radius rangeish if I had to guess at numbers. Auras should be something you consider, but you don't have to force it. Also I think that since the community seems to often request Sona to be an "aura support", lowering the range of her auras by a lot seems a bit backwards. The Q CD changes seem great, actually. I didn't mind this at all. The W shield change seemed kinda pointless to me, especially with the aura size decrease making it significantly harder to actually land the shield on teammates. To be honest Sona's W shield has always seemed very counterintuitive to me - Shields are something that you throw up for a short period of time to block incoming damage. Sona's W requires her to huddle close with her allies to shield them, so that they all take damage from whatever AOE the enemy team throws at them. I think this is a big reason why the shield feels useless and I ignore it most of the time. It simply doesn't do the job of a shield, and actually makes taking additional damage far more likely. I feel like swapping the heal and the shield around or messing with it in some way would make it feel a lot better to use without actually increasing the power level much at all. I get the idea behind Sona's E, but I didn't feel the impact that much at all. It's nice, but I don't think it'll make her that much more enjoyable to play. It has succeeded in making E a skill to level before level 6 though. Overall I actually felt a little more frustrated than before when playing her since I tried to make use of the auras which harmed me a lot more than it helped. There's still no reason that I would ever pick Sona instead of Nami, I'd still rather have Nami as a support than Sona in every single game that I play, I feel she's far more enjoyable and more impactful, and less linear. > If Sona comes out with these changes and ends up being too strong would you be willing to accept power cuts in other areas to keep them? What would you want to see hit? Here's everything that I feel could get nerfed on Sona's part to reduce her power level to give it elsewhere, or just power shifts that might make her feel more enjoyable and/or impactful: * Q range * W range * Q passive self-apply removed, more Q damage overall. * Q damages 1 target only * Missing health healing * Instant healing -> Healing over time * **Base attack speed** (I honestly think this could be a pretty good one to hit, could cut her power by a very significant amount while not making her feel terrible since Sona needs to play around Power chord and Lich bane [if she buys one] a lot) **A little bit on your goals solutions etc:** I'm extremely happy that Sona is being looked at, but I don't think that the goals and solutions that you've selected actually help solve Sona's problems. With just one source of hard CC tied to her ultimate Sona is never going to be a playmaking support. Trying to make individual spellcasts feel better and trying to make Sona more spammy at the same time also seems backwards to me, same for making aura tags more impactful and at the same time lowering the aura radius. Trying to do too many things at once with Sona yet again. I think Sona feels weak and feels like she lacks agency because of the instant effects of her auras in part. Once an aura has been used, there is almost never a reason not to switch to the next to get its benefit/stack passive faster. That results in a relatively linear playstyle and game pattern, with only the ult causing high moments. High consistency and good performance go hand in hand though. I truly feel that putting persistant power into longer auras, possibly even ramping auras rather than one-time use short benefits would allow you to achieve your goals much more smoothly, while not increasing her performance at all due to more decision-making involved and more possible mistakes. The longer you listen to a song the more you get into it right? (Ramping auras would also make her more unique compared to all the other enchanters) As a side note, if you've actually read this could you please leave a note or something. I always get paranoid when I try to put effort into a post/reply/similar that it won't get read and my effort will be for naut, which is discouraging for the future. Please don't give up on Sona though, I loved her in the past and I'd love to see her more often again.
: MYMU - Brand Discussion
Brand gives me the feeling of still having too much single target burst potential considering his massive AOE power. His AOE power seems perfect and marvelous to me, had some real awesome moments playing against and with him. I also feel that there are too few moments where he would want to use Q to set the enemy ablaze instead of for the stun, and likewise too few moments where he would value the blaze parts of E and W more. A suggestion would be something along the lines of the passive needing 4 stacks to explode, and W on a blazing target stacks 2 charges, and E spread radius is buffed by like 150 units or so. These thoughts are mainly from playing against and with him, I haven't played him myself in an actual game, just a disclaimer. I just don't feel that he should be able to 100-0 a solo enemy in one rotation so easily.
Rioter Comments
: > I would live to see an AP item that creates a zone that gives a shield as long as you stay in it or it is depleted and have it scale off Mana. This way when they are attacked they can defend themselves or when they go to attack they make the enemy want to run or face a tougher fight. Sure, there's a variant of that that could be interesting. I'm not particularly interested in **how** we inject skill expression - so long as there's a certain level of mastery that players can opt into in the game itself. As far as specifics go - we haven't found shield effects to be particularly compelling (given that we have 3 or 4 shield skills in the game) - there's probably some type of trick to making a defensive skill have a level of depth here that isn't 'time this to block damage' - or, potentially worse - 'I am super tanky in this zone.'
I think the trick to that would be to give it some offensive usage as well, but using the skill offensively causes the defensive part to be less effective or nonexistant. Examples of that could be Ez's E, Quinn's vault, Lissandra ult.
: [Planned - 6.9] Mana x MP/5 x AP x MR Item Pass [Updated - 4/11/2016]
Point 1: If rocket belt turns out to be too linear, have you tried adding a 0.5 second self-silence after using it? I feel that'd help make it much healthier than just being used as an engage tool for annie. Point 2: Athenes could be used as an active to heal players instead of being tied to shields if it cost a % of a players mana to use, something like 6% perhaps? Artillery mages wouldn't want to waste their mana since they buy mana, but supports would have lower pools and higher regen so it would work out. Point 3: As far as spell vamp goes, I think most players are just saddened by the loss of possibility of additional sustain for mages. Even if it was rarely the right item to buy spell vamp is a very FUN stat, yaknow? Buying it on Annie or Cassio or Elise was quite fun. Wouldn't it be possible to create a mage sustain item that's linear like lifesteal is to fill the role? Something like Soraka's Q healing added to an item? Perhaps with a stacking mechanic on the healing, to make it a strong item on heavy skirmish lanes/games? Lifesteal is a very fun stat to have, particularly when dealing with a lot of poke since it prevents the anti-fun nature of artillery from bothering you as much, and it becomes more of a game of you needing to dodge enough stuff while autoattacking minions to keep healthy enough, whereas without lifesteal it's just a matter of time. I thought of a third point that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Added my first two points as well in case you decide to reply to this one, I'm quite curious particularly about the silence bit. EDIT: Also have a great big chocolate chip cookie for your efforts in replying to as many people as possible, love it. If you posted like 3-4 times a week on the main boards as well I think Repertoir would have serious competition for my favorite rioter here.
: > How about changing the item to have an active? Target an ally (not self) with it to heal them with the charges. Could be a way to give supports that have no sustain a way to heal their ADC if the situation demands it (i.e. Zyra support with ADC that loves eating Ezreal Q). Interesting notion. What makes this from turning any kind of siege mage into a sustain mage (ala Xerath?) - rather than just the Support ones that we want to target (Zyra)?
Could be done relatively easily if we made such an active eat mana. Siege mages would want to save their mana for poking mostly, they wouldn't want to use their mana on healing their allies since they don't regen mana super quickly. Supports have mana regen, so they wouldn't mind consuming some mana for healing their allies since they're supporty and their mana will regen anyway.
: Yeah - it's highly likely that if anything causes the item to fail - it will be Annie interactions. It's a fairly dangerous and pretty experimental change overall.
Honestly, this item reminds me a bit of the problem snowball has on aram - it's necessary to make some champions decent, but it absolutely breaks Galio and a few other offenders. I've tried to come up with solutions in the past and the only thing that I could think of was a self-inflicted 0.5 second silence. Wouldn't that perhaps be the key to making the item work? Makes increasing spell ranges far more difficult with it, but doesn't affect its use to run away from things very much, and supports it being used mid-combat as an outplay tool since you'd want some of your spells on CD to absorb the impact of the silence. On the other stuff, so that I don't make two replies, I really like the general direction you're going with these. With both main MR items being objectively weaker tanks might be a bit more vulnerable to magic damage, which I also quite like, makes tank busting less of an ADC-only job. Have you considered giving clarity a charge system/modifying clarity somewhat to support these changes and make it a viable summoner spell choice outside of aram? It seems like it would fit in well with rounding out your changes, and might help with your xerath problem.
: Heartseeker was never intended to just be a line of marksmen, or a line of champions with bows. :]
I really do think that in this case the skins team should consider changing the name of heartseeker orianna to sweetheart as well. Heartseeker being a bow-users skin line just feels so much more right, even if it was never intended that is what I feel should happen. A non-bow heartseeker skin is just wrong. You know how much we can be attached to the weirdest naming and other odds and ends of skins.
: I just have 1 question. What difference would it make for you if Riot just unlocked Mastery tiers 6 and 7 on all champions for everyone? You would instantly have Mastery 7 on Quinn, which, according to what you said earlier, wouldn't feel like an achievement to you because you just instantly get it without doing anything for it. You would not have it on Vayne or Nami (if Mastery 6 required 100k mastery points), so it would stay exactly as it is just that now you have the chance to see your improvement on these champions without investing in unlocking the mastery tiers. I really don't see how this implementation devalues the Mastery tiers. The only way that implementing Mastery tiers 6 and 7 DON'T devalue the tiers is if you'd have to get an ADDITIONAL number of Mastery points to your current ones to get them.
Agreed, it wouldn't really feel like an achievement to me on Quinn. It would be more of a recognition based satisfaction, as in "Hey we added these new mastery tiers but you're already so high we're just giving it to you GJ". Not as good of a feeling, but still a positive one. However, on every single other champion that I play it would still feel like an achievement to me. When I hit (to use your values) 100k on Vayne, I'll get the awesome achievement feeling from reaching mastery tier 7 on her. But if this suggestion was implimented, then when I reach mastery tier 5 on say Kindred, I get the feeling of "Oh so if I want to get a higher tier I have to go through this chore of either waiting until I randomly get a champion shard for her, or collect 3 champion shards from chests. What a pain in the ass." When I finally unlock it I wouldn't get a feeling of achievement at all, nor would I get a feeling of satisfaction. I would get a negative feeling of "I can finally level Kindred up to tier 6." Most likely I'll already be at that stage, but if I am not my feeling on reaching tier 6 would be "Cool. Man that was a pain in the ass to get." as in every time I hit tier 6 or 7 I would revisit how annoyed I was rather than revisiting how much I've improved and enjoyed the champion. That negative feeling would only increase for champions where I already have enough points for tier 6 or 7. It would give me the "pain in the ass" feeling doubled or tripled for the duration of not having the tier unlocked since my belief is that **I by all rights should already have this mastery tier.** That is what I mean by champion mastery being champion **mastery**, nothing else. The negative feeling I would get will only increase depending on how rare it would be to upgrade to tier 6 or 7. Estimating from Jeremy GC's video, there is currently a 3/10 chance of getting a champion shard. At 4 chests a month we would get 1.2 champion shards per month. That would mean we would get to upgrade a specific champion every 3 months, or 4 a year at minimum. Here I will admit I may be misunderstanding something. >Example: You own Jax. Using a Jax shard, you can raise the Champion Mastery level cap to 6 for Jax. If I have not misunderstood this example, it means we need to upgrade a champion twice to get to level 7. So at minimum if only upgrading we'd be able to upgrade a champion to level 7 twice per year. The mastery system hasn't even been out for a year! Of course that number could be increased a lot due to purchasable chests and individual champion shards, but it should give a perspective on scarcity. We could probably upgrade around 4 champs to level 7 twice a year on average. That rarity is extreme enough that my pain in the ass feeling would be quite extreme. On top of that the rarity would be enough that I would often already have the champion points needed for tier 6 and 7 before I get those tiers, so as stated my negative feeling would increase. Sorry about this massive wall of text but after all of our back and forth I wanted to be as clear as possible so that you can understand my viewpoint on all this. EDIT: Forgot to clarify something. The pain in the ass feeling would spread down the other tiers and cause my association with each mastery tier to be annoyance. So I would no longer feel anything positive from leveling up a tier, but something negative instead. It would cause my feeling of reaching tier 4 on Lucian to be "Great, now I have 1 more tier to go before I have to do that stupid thing with the champion shards again."
: Oh, I finally see what you're saying. Two players that have the same mastery points, one that opts out of using shards to increase their mastery tier for a champion, appear to be on two different levels of mastery. You're absolutely right, for mastery to be so old now, implementing an expansion that is, for all intents and purposes, opt-in, is wonky, to say the least. However, think about it from a future standpoint. Let's just say, for examples sake, Jhin and hextech crafting come out and you start playing Jhin and you love him, he's your absolute new favorite champion and you hit mastery 5 really easily and quick and pick up a mastery shard for him along the way. Most people will be excited at the opportunity to expand the mastery tier for Jhin and work hard to accomplish it. I think for new content, even in regards to champions that get reworked or just ones that don't get played for meta reasons or what not...champions you just don't have any real mastery in, an expanding system will grant more satisfaction as you earn mastery. But for the players that only play a handful of champions, this system doesn't really accomplish anything because they've already got an obscene amount of mastery points in those few champions they play. I'm of the opinion this is a good starting point, the only consolation I can think of is if riot just gave people with a certain number above the t7 mastery point the automatic t7 completion upon launch. I still think people would be upset by that solution so I don't believe it's a very good one, but that's my idea, maybe someone can build off of it.
From a future standpoint I still think mastery would feel a lot more complete, better, and **satisfying** if there was no need to unlock additional tiers. Especially if the hextech system had something like "Summoner profile banner: Draven - requires tier 7 mastery". I don't think anyone would feel less excited about that, more excited more likely. Bigger rewards feel better, after all. And the excitement of being able to work towards tier 7 would still exist and be great. What you've understood isn't quite what I was getting at, but it's close enough.
: WHAT?!? You can't trust the difference between tier 5,6 and 7 anymore... is that what you're trying to say? Well then I'd have to call bullshit, because if you have all champions or don't care about the ones you don't have and you really like the champion you want to have mastery 6 or 7 on you will get it... guaranteed, because you get chests and keys and with that you automatically get champion shards. If you are dedicated to your champion you will use these to unlock a higher mastery. If you are not dedicated you don't. If you're not dedicated you wouldn't be playing the champion as much in the first place, tho. Mastery 6 and 7 shows your dedication toward the mastered champion just as much as all the other masteries because you spent time on unlocking the masteries and reaching them. EDIT: It still gives you a feeling of having achieved something because when you unlock your mastery 6 or 7 and you instantly get it because you played your champion that much you'll have that reassured by your new mastery tier. And the proposal shown still has the mastery points and the mastery tiers completely interlinked... You did misunderstand something. If you don't have the mastery points and unlock the mastery tier you will not have the mastery tier unless you get more mastery points. EDIT2: If we take yourself as an example now... if you unlock mastery 6 and 7 for Quinn, Nami and Vayne you will be Mastery 7 as Quinn, but not as Vayne or Nami because you need 100k Mastery points (the number is an assumption, a guess) to get Mastery 7 on them, no matter whether you unlocked it or not.
>If you don't have the mastery points and unlock the mastery tier you will not have the mastery tier unless you get more mastery points. Again, I never misunderstood that, this was clear to me from the beginning. >If you are dedicated to your champion you will use these to unlock a higher mastery. Yes, and if this system comes to pass I will unlock tiers 6 and 7 for my favourites. But I will not enjoy doing so. Given the choice, I would choose staying with tier 5 and not getting any additional benefits from tiers 6 and 7 at all over getting them in this fashion. >And the proposal shown still has the mastery points and the mastery tiers completely interlinked No, it doesn't. My meaning is that they are perfectly connected, whenever someone hits 21600 they are tier 5. Adding hextech as a variable means that you could hit tier 6 at 33000, or at 80000, or at 126000. >It still gives you a feeling of having achieved something Again, it does not. It may for you but it won't for me. Different people, different viewpoints, as already said. I'd like to request that you stop assuming everyone works the way you do at this point (and while I'm at it stop assuming that I've misunderstood something, or that others in this thread are just out for free stuff) If you want a "What am I trying to say", I am saying that the addition of tiers 6 and 7 in this fashion would devalue all mastery tiers for me. A significant loss to my enjoyment of the game.
: I don't see where your problem is... The mastery system still measures how much you played a champion. You really misunderstood something or didn'read the full post before writing your wall of text. If you're mastery 5 with 250k mastery points all it means is that you didn't get a shard for your champion yet or didn't want to use 3 random shards. A 250k mastery points mastery 7 guy has played a champion just as much as a 250k pointa mastery 5 guy. And a guy who just got mastery 5 wont get mastery 6 unless he plays alot more, it doesn't matter how many champion shards he uses. Not to mention that if you have all champions champion shards are gonna be completely useless, so why not use them to get the ability to get some extra rewards for the champions you have played the most?
Read my reply to LingerieGoat. Different people have different values. The fact that a player with 80k mastery points can be a higher tier than a 250k mastery point player seriously bothers me, it goes against what I understand and trust in the mastery system. While it may not bother you, it would bother me and others like me more than being camped by shaco. Why does the reward for other champion shards have to be more mastery tiers? There isn't really a good reason for that. It's one of many possibilities. I want to firmly push Riot to look to one of the other possibilities or just modifying it slightly as per my original reply to keep my values and trust in Riot intact.
: You gotta read the whole post. This doesnt give you mastery, it just unlocks the higher tiers beyond 5. So lets say you have a champion at mastery 5, you cant get any higher mastery level than that by default. So you use these champion unlocks to unlock tier 6, and then tier 7. You still have to earn the mastery points playing the champion. If you already have earned those points, it unlocks and grants the tier at the same time, but it doesnt just unlock it automatically. What theyre doing is giving a purpose to champion shards when you already own all the champions, or even just when you already own a champion you got shards for. Theyre not giving away free mastery ranks.
I read the whole post and did not misunderstand one bit, I stand by what I said. We have 2 things, champion mastery points and champion mastery tiers. Right now these are completely interlinked with one another. The proposal shown causes a disconnect between the two. And of the two, champion mastery tiers are far more visible than champion mastery points, so when looking at champion mastery people look at the tier first. Getting enough champion mastery points to unlock the next tier makes me feel that I am getting better at the champ, they're like benchmarks where I look back and think "I'm playing Kindred much better now than I was at tier 2." The proposal ruins that for me for tiers 6 and 7. On top of that, the disconnect shown will make me not trust the tiers anymore, I won't view them as anything at all. The disconnect will devalue the lower tiers to me as well.
: Champion Mastery - Level 6 & 7
I -REALLY- don't like this idea. I really don't like it. Champion mastery to me is champion mastery. Emphasis on mastery. It shows how much I've played a champion, how well I know it. I have over 250k on Quinn and I feel that I know her in's and out's extremely well. I have 80k on Vayne and Nami and I feel I know them pretty well. I like the idea of champion mastery and champion mastery points. But this just leaves a sour taste in my mouth just reading about it. I don't care about the rewards that champion mastery may have to offer, I care about it from an achievement point of view and a progression point of view. Unlocking additional mastery levels with hextech will never give me any sort of a sense of achievement, nor will it give me a sense of progression - my overall skill with the champion has not magically doubled because I decided to unlock this mastery level. Any special rewards you have planned for champion mastery, just stick them into hextech. Give it a champion mastery requirement to unlock and it's the exact same thing in the end, just without the terrible feeling that I would get. Finally reaching level 7 mastery so that I can unlock the champion icon with the shard I've saved up for it would feel a lot better than piecing together shards so that I get level 7. Champion mastery is an addition that I thought was really cool, but if this comes to pass I don't think I'll enjoy it anywhere near as much. **The time where individual champion mastery tiers no longer reflect skill and dedication to a champion is the time where I can no longer view it as champion "mastery".**
: Thanks for the detailed steps. Would you mind sharing your machine's specs and OS with us? If you're on Windows, * Hold down the Windows key then press R * Type in "dxdiag" without quotes * Press the enter key * In the bottom right of the window, click "Save All Information..." * Save that text file in a convenient location You'll see a lot of info in that text file. You can go ahead and paste it here, though I'm most interested in operating system, processor, memory, and video card name.
Had the same issue. Here's mine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ System Information ------------------ Time of this report: 1/14/2016, 16:46:33 Machine name: PRODIGY-15 Operating System: Windows 8.1 64-bit (6.3, Build 9600) (9600.winblue_ltsb.151121-0600) Language: English (Regional Setting: English) System Manufacturer: Notebook System Model: P15SM-A/SM1-A BIOS: 4.6.5 Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4710MQ CPU @ 2.50GHz (8 CPUs), ~2.5GHz Memory: 8192MB RAM Available OS Memory: 8108MB RAM Page File: 10286MB used, 4466MB available Windows Dir: C:\Windows DirectX Version: DirectX 11 DX Setup Parameters: Not found User DPI Setting: Using System DPI System DPI Setting: 120 DPI (125 percent) DWM DPI Scaling: UnKnown DxDiag Version: 6.03.9600.17415 64bit Unicode ------------ DxDiag Notes ------------ Display Tab 1: No problems found. Display Tab 2: No problems found. Sound Tab 1: No problems found. Sound Tab 2: No problems found. 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: Agreed here -- I generally struggled to push towers but I didn't feel like it was way worse compared to competing marksman. That being said I feel that he more plays like a mage than a marksman, (or some weird combination of both). This could possibly lead us to seeing him Mid more often than bot. The question would be do we feel like Jhin being a bit worse at pushing towers is a necessary weakness, given the strength and scaling of the rest of his kit?
I have to disagree, I think it was way worse compared to other marksmen. Needing to reload means that we lose (estimate you know better) 2-3 autoattacks compared to others, and the AD scaling doesn't really make up for the loss of attack speed when going for towers. It's like going for turrets with a mage such as Annie, as you've said. I would probably argue that in the case of him being treated as an AD mage he would be overall a failure in the goal of making another marksman for us marksman mains to enjoy. At least in my eyes. I honestly feel that being good at pushing towers is a requirement, a necessity to have in a bot lane ADC. If you guys decide to move Jhin towards a midlane AD caster playstyle (which I would be in full support of since that's what he felt like to me) that's fine with me, but I'd have to request that another marksman be added onto your new champion "to do" list in turn.
: Jhin Gameplay & Feel Feedback!
I just want to request some way of forcing a reload onto him other than just waiting for ages. Often while CSing I see a moment where I could reload without missing anything and I'd love to. Reload itself feels smooth, but having a magazine of 4 shots means you're left over with some far more than as Graves, so being able to force reloads would make him feel a lot better imo. EDIT: An easy way to do it would be to have S or whatever is the "stop" key to cause Jhin to reload. Would make a lot of sense gameplay wise and not require people to learn a new key.
: Jhin Balance Feedback!
I feel as though Jhin needs some way of pushing towers better. Pushing towers is one of the big reasons why marksmen exist in every game, since they do it best. His current ability to push towers and minions is incredibly lacking to the point where I somehow managed to lose a game 1v5ing beginner bots while pushing mid.
Rioter Comments
: The problem is they made a feedback thread for Quinn but our ignoring their own forums for the Twitch and Reditt pages. Those are important yes and worth looking into but the core of your target and the people who care the most are going to post it here. They're only using those mediums because no one is responding or acknowledging this. Otherwise people on those mediums would redirect them here. Having a central location for your feedback and all issues is paramount to having a successful project and when they have too many channels and look to the other ones before the primary one there is a problem. There's no doubt that he's trying and doing what he can and I'm thankful for that but he needs to focus his efforts. Maybe say I will only take recommendations or comments from here. That way Reddit and Twitch is for Player to Player communication and this is our outlet to the Devs. Our ONE and MAJOR outlet and all feedback is easy to find.
The reddit where he seems to be active the most is our r/QuinnMains reddit, which is composed primarily of people who care far more than people who got PBE access years ago. I would also say they're the core of the target. Thus I disagree with this point immensely, especially since PBE is PBE, not everyone has access to it and a large number of players who may not be playing on NA or EU or just haven't gotten access are simply unable to contribute here, unlike on Reddit or Twitch.
: Caitlyn Gameplay Update Feedback Megathread
I just want to say that from what my impression is here, these changes are really well done and thought out. You kinda have a bad reputation among the community, but I think that this might be a good step forwards, along with your excellent communication here. +1 from me.
: I want you to know just how much this reply means to me. I understand how difficult it can be to read and reply to comments from people like me, and the fact the you continue to do so, at 2 in the morning, hours after you are off the clock, is just amazing. Truly, thank you. [Upcoming edit with more on the topic at hand. Just wanted to send this comment as soon as possible so hopefully you see it before the sandman whisks you away] edit: In regards to her AA, I just hope you don't rely on the numbers and say "well, they should be fine", because they definitely aren't fine. Something makes them feel awkward, and that should be addressed. I believe Kalista received some changes to clean up a similar problem (or maybe as a non-conventional nerf/buff), so maybe Quinn could get the same treatment? Keep in mind that its not just about her harrier AA compared to her basic AA, its about her AAs relative to other marksmen in general. If they feel even a bit easier to cancel compared to other marksmen, then that feeling, or more importantly the potential frustration associated with it, is increased considerably given the importance of her landing any given AA. I'll reserve my thoughts on the passive until I get a feel for its changes. For now, my concern is, how difficult will it be to actually proc 3 marks in quick succession? It seems like one of her major combos will be something along the lines of 'passive>AA>Q>AA>E>AA'. If for any reason that cant be reliably executed _quickly_, then there might need to be some changes to her passive. Again, I can't thank you enough for the reply. It has done a lot to maintain my faith in Riot, and obviously in you. And it isn't even about me specifically getting a reply. If you had replied to someone else regarding this topic, I would still be reassured that you are indeed listening. Even if the Quinn changes don't go how I would like, your respect towards us crazy Quinn players will go a long way in softening the blow.
Just a little thing, the combo will be passive>AA>E>AA>Q>AA. E is an autoattack reset, and also puts a slow onto the enemy, meaning you can E in the middle of the first autoattack to proc them extremely rapidly, and the bonus damage on enemy missing health on Q means you want to put it later in the combo. From my experience playing Quinn, it won't be too difficult at all to pull off that combo.
: I've heard the thing about Quinn's Harrier AAs being easier to cancel, but I timed them again today and they seem to check out as being as fast as the normal basic attacks. Perhaps it has to do with the animation being different visually or the sound being different on the Harrier attack? Harrier itself is getting some logic changes that haven't been detailed yet, as I stuck to the higher level stuff for today.
They're talking about all the autoattacks, not just the harrier. The main points that I think are needed to be noted is that the timing for the projectile might be out of sync somewhat, so you can sometimes cancel an autoattack which has a projectile currently in mid-air if you cancel it roughly as it leaves the crossbow/no more than a bolt away from the crossbow. The second possibility is that the autoattack windup is a bit long - this is primarily in the early levels compared to someone like Vayne, who also uses a crossbow, but Quinn's animation has her stand still and the edges of her crossbow flutter for a second before firing, unlike Vayne who just shoots. The third possibility is that the sound is slightly desynced. Also go to sleep isn't it like 1am....
: > I believe with intensive ADC mechanics practice, I will be able to orbwalk even under that insane attack speed. :^) I'd love to see this.
Osu! clicking practice helps...probably :P
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Questions: Does Q have different targeting, pass-through units? Would it be possible for Quinn's E to act like ARAM snowballs in that it makes her untargetable by skillshots and not targetable during flight, but targeted abilities and AA fired before will still work, along with tower shots? My favorite thing about her E was always her ability to dodge things like hooks with the short displacement, and thus outplay the opponent, which would be much harder with a faster E. It'd also help her with many of the mid-lane matchups such as Lux or Xerath. With her ult being even more roam heavy, are there really no changes for W incoming? Such as slightly longer duration+vision follows Quinn around during the flight? Or multiple charges? What are the primary things you're uncertain about with these changes, and what are the ones you think should be a guaranteed hit/are more unlikely to change? EDIT: I think overall most of us aren't really too attached to Skystrike at all, more just that additional burst damage in her kit. If it's going to be nerfed, removing it honestly sounds a lot better and I don't think many will miss it if the new Quinn plays well.

Saixos V

Level 39 (PBE)
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