: Hi! Happy to answer this one. The patch will be longer than usual, so while the skins won't release until September 7th, the patch will be packaged and shipped at its normal time. As [noted](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/K0oeULbr-quick-gameplay-thoughts-august-11) by Meddler - *Speaking of 7.18 there'll be a longer gap than usual between 7.17 and 7.18 of three weeks, rather than the usual two. That's because we need to fit one 3 week patch into the year somewhere to some patch release timing stuff around pre-season etc to work out. 7.17 made sense as a time to do that since it then gives us a bit more time when the game's pretty stable to work on Runes/other pre-season content and do a bit more assessment of final changes for the Worlds patch (7.18). * As for your other questions - **Syndra** - Adding a different processing was out of scope, as it always is when content is on PBE. We actually don't have the unprocessed VO because she's such an old champion Changing the design and color were also tall orders. **Ahri** - Zeronis stated at the beginning of the cycle that [she wouldn't have them](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/WAr3GvAi-star-guardian-ahri-is-missing-her-whiskers?comment=0002). We discussed this three times internally after this post was made, but ultimately stood by our choice and reasoning. **Soraka** - I'd mentioned this in her post, iirc, but because her animations are quick, it was difficult to find a spot for Shisa that made sense. We considered Shisa for a passive indicator, but having up to four Shisa running around caused a lot of noise and didn't make a whole lot of sense. The star was meant to be changed before it hit PBE. We'd wanted the gem to match her staff. Feedback is encouraged, but I think it's important to realize that not every suggestion will be acted upon. We can promise that we read and discuss the feedback as a team. A lot of things do change based off feedback we receive! A few examples from the past - We changed Blood Moon Elise's color three times, for the first time, we changed Nunu's passive for his Zombie skin because players said it didn't match, reverted the orange horns we gave to Pentakill Mordekaiser when we updated his texture, modified Pentakill Kayle's SFX (I hung out in the Kayle Main Discord for that patch to get their feedback.) On the flip side, we don't make some changes - we didn't revert Pentakill Sona's dress color because it was a craft choice. The artists updated her to match with the current art style of League. I think we, as a team, could do a better job explaining why we do or don't change something. While the answer may not be what you want to hear/you don't agree with it, it provides a level of transparency, and I think that's important.
Has there been any official response to feedback on splash arts? I'm mostly concerned with Ahri's right arm, which looks really bizzare (there are several other things that could be better about that splash as well but this is the most obvious). I've seen comments both on the PBE boards and on reddit about the splashes but I can't find a response from Riot about them.
: I think the team is doing a good enough job, just the ahri fans are too irrational and this is coming from an Ahri main since season 3. The whole whiskers thing they wont let go is ridiculous.
In what way is it irrational to expect a skin to retain one of the defining traits of the character? Especially considering how simple this particular one is.
: Hi Roryrai! If you could pinpoint what feels off about the Q, that'd be great! :D I'm catching up with gameplay again regarding the ult, but we've received sign off from them, and a designer that it's okay as is. The laugh is a node to a common anime trope - it's meant to be a a haughty laugh! Regarding the whiskers, I think that's fair. I'm with the team on this once, and get why we did what we did, but I also see it from others' perspectives, in that, all other skins have them, so why not this one?
Thanks for the reply! I have been really busy the last couple days and didn't have a chance to get to this until just now. I do understand the reference from the laugh, I guess I just feel like the laughter in the normal VO lines fits better. That's just me though and I won't complain _too_ much if it stays as is (I admit it will be nice to have a tool to counter all those pro Zeds finally, just spam my more obnoxious laugh in response to theirs). I'm glad the ult is staying, I'm just sorta sad I can't trick people with the third dash with this skin. It gets people more often than I think it ought to. As for the Q, I think it's a combination of a few things. The transition from blue to pink at the tip is instant (it might be better to fade? I wouldn't know without seeing it), and the pink orb has a slightly different path on the way back. It's a bit lower on the screen. I think those two things make the transition itself kinda stand out more than other skins. Don't get me wrong though I do like the color change. Another thing I'm noticing is the way her orb reappears after casting Q. It pops back into existence after like a second or so, and it reappears instantly when moving while casting. All of Ahri's skins (including the base skin) do this, but I think it's more noticeable because the orb is much busier with this skin, especially when her passive is up since the green makes the glow around the orb a lot brighter than it is normally. Another thing I just noticed a few minutes ago, and I'm not sure how this happens, is that sometimes when I was just sort of standing around I seemed to only get one idle animation on repeat. First I saw this with the one where she brushes off the front of her skirt, and then with the one where Kiko flies around and tugs on her ears. She was just playing those on repeat, and I'm not sure if there's supposed to be VO for them but I didn't hear any. It definitely didn't always do this though, so it might have just been some silly RNG making the same animation play back to back 5 times in a row or something. I doubt I'd ever really notice this in practical use because if I'm not moving I'm probably doing something wrong. That's all I've got right now. I suppose I can always hope that the whiskers will be brought back but I feel like the odds of that are kinda low.
: If you think about it, Ahri's resolve to become more human is proven to the fact that she doesn't have whiskers in this skin. In this universe, Ahri has forged a contract with the First Star to become a Star Guardian, so she doesn't have the necessity to eat human souls when her purpose is now focused on defending the universe. With the First Star's help, Ahri has fufilled her cravings and is gaining more power to appear more human.
The old lore where she became more human by consuming souls, and was actively trying to become more human, was decanonized a while ago. Her current bio makes no mention of either of those things, so I don't think the lore argument is a very strong one to justify the change.
: [CLOSED] PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Star Guardian Ahri!
I really like a lot of what's been done with this skin, but there are a few things that I think didn't turn out so well. Animations and spell effects are great, but the Q feels a bit off. I need to actually get back on pbe and look at it again to figure out what felt weird to me though. Some other people have mentioned this as well so I might have been noticing the same things as them. The ult effect looks really awesome and I want to keep it but, like others have mentioned, it is a lot more telegraphed than all of her other skins which could be a gameplay disadvantage. I generally like the VO, but the laugh feels really off to me, it doesn't seem like it fits with the rest of her personality very well. Some of her other lines have laughter in them and I think those laughs would have made a lot more sense for her. I could do without the current laugh. Finally, I've seen the context on why she doesn't have her whiskers and I have to say I disagree with the reasoning for it. I guess it seems weird to me to call the skin a "step above season 1 guardians on an aesthetic level" when it's missing something iconic like this. Admittedly I haven't seen an iteration of the skin with whiskers but it currently feels like a step down rather than up.
: Concerned for AP based champs.
So, I finally got on PBE, login queues are insane right now, and did a couple customs with a friend to start a comparison between AD and AP mid laners. The original intent was to look at Deathfire Touch on an AP champion vs an AD champion, and it ended up showing me a lot more than just that AD seems to have it better in the only really viable AP offensive mastery. I only got a chance to play two games, one as AP and one as AD, but it did give me a bit of a baseline for comparison. If anyone is interested in the specifics I can post them, but the general idea is that AD seems more efficient with Deathfire Touch than AP, and on top of that they have better build paths for magic resist items than AP champions do for armor items.
: What do you think about some non-number things that mages have? Namely more burst and CC than their AD counterparts? I understand some marksmen have those things as well, but it seems like that has always been the realm of mages more or less. Or perhaps the simple need for mixed damage will keep AP carries viable
So I meant to respond to this sooner, I saw it late Friday night and was too tired to say anything, then got distracted with Worlds on Saturday and forgot until now. In general, I'm referring more to AD mid laners than to marksmen, since the marksmen will tend to have higher sustained damage over burst or crowd control. As for burst, see: Zed, Yasuo, Talon. All of these champions have comparable burst to their Ap counterparts, and with more efficient mastery paths and better itemization it seems like they'll have an edge over mages. There are also picks like Varus, that provide long-range physical damage, as well as some magic damage and a not terrible amount of crowd control. Crowd control: Pretty much every support champion ever, and there are a lot of ways to get enough CC that don't involve having a mage on your team. CC from the mid lane is still good, but the best form of crowd control is killing them and AD champions seem to have much better ways to do that now. There are also ways to get magic damage aside from having it on your mid laner (there are still a lot of strong magic damage junglers), though that is generally the best place to get it from. Certainly not all AP champions would lose their viability, but I think the ones that do will still be relevant because they have favorable matchups into the AD lanes. These are the champions like Lulu, who can keep a Zed or Yasuo almost irrelevant throughout the whole game. Azir will probably also stay relevant for the same reason, and because he's less reliant on mana than a lot of other AP champions.
: I mean I know that not having mana pots is kind of a big thing but they did put in some potions to help with that PLUS dorans ring has mana regen on it now I believe? unsure of the other one currently tho as i am waiting forever and a day in queue
The only potion that gives mana is flask I believe (could be wrong about this, I'm really tired and don't feel like looking it up right now) and Doran's Ring already had mana regen on it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Colonel Gasket,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=FRNZt6Mv,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-10-31T01:02:11.262+0000) > > Even if you land every skillshot, the enemy laner can counter with health pots that you can then not counter with mana pots so making them waste 50 gold is a disadvantage?
It's not wasted gold if that extra health allows them more pressure in the lane. If that health allows them to shove into your tower and/or start to out trade you because you run out of mana, it starts to favor them more than you. When out of mana and under tower it can be difficult to manage the wave for a good recall, and you lose out on minions and therefore more gold and XP than the health pot that you forced them to use. Overall, running out of mana without gaining a lasting health advantage over your lane opponent is a net win for them since they get to stay in lane longer, and they get to leave it on their terms instead of yours.
: Isn't it 200 gold cheaper? Anyway I prefer the old zhonyas because there are comps that you definitely need that item and 80 isn't enough
Its cost went from 3000 to 3200, on top of losing stats compared to the live version and losing stats compared to the component items as they stand on PBE.
: Well, tbh AP midlaners are too strong on live. They have damage, utility and are versatile on top of that. On the other end, assassins are also too weak, they're just not that useful in a good team comp., so overall I agree with the changes. It's also incorrect to state that AP midlaners don't have enough mana on PBE. They have traditionally dominated assassins in lane and Doran's Ring provides even more mana now (most mages have 6 or more mana regen per 5 at level 1) and AFAIK midlaners don't usually purchase mana pots, at least not at the very start of the game. However, I agree that the crit keystone talent is ridiculously broken on certain champs. It needs a nerf, badly. Overall, I agree with the changes on the PBE, but it's too early to say if AP midlaners might've been overnerfed. Right now they still do what they used to do, just slightly worse and I think that's enough to keep them viable.
Assassins being too weak, and mages being too strong, has more to do with the current meta being more tank focused than it does with those types of champions actually being too strong or too weak. Control mages thrive in a tank meta, while assassins struggle to be relevant simply because they can't kill anyone. I do agree that assassins are in a worse spot right now than mages and can have issues just in the laning phase alone, but when trying to fix an issue like that the direction to take is to either nerf the strong ones or buff the weak ones, not both at once like Riot's doing now. As for mid lanes not purchasing mana pots at the start of the game, that's correct. But after recalling, especially when laning against a Zed or Yasuo or someone who started Flask, it's generally really helpful in order to be able to keep up with them, especially given that junglers in solo queue can't be relied on to give blue buffs over even when you're against a manaless champion. Since I haven't been able to get around the player minimum for custom games and I can't stand normals on PBE I can't comment on the mana regen changes yet.
: Concerned for AP based champs.
The other concerning thing to me for AP champions, in addition to the mana region issues, is the fact that the mastery tree for AP is extremely awkward. There are only a couple of the masteries in the bottom row that are actually viable at all on AP champions, and all of these are either equal or strictly better on AD champions. The ones that are viable are Stormraider's Surge (movespeed on dealing high enough burst, viable on burst mages), Thunderlord's Decree (AoE damage on the third spell or attack hit, scaling with AD and AP), and Deathfire Touch (burn on dealing spell or attack damage, scaling with both AD and AP). Assuming that, on average, a mage will have approximately twice as much AP after building hat as a carry has AD, the scaling on Thunderlord's decree gives equal damage to both AP and AD. The movespeed from Stormraider's Surge is also equal on both AP and AD champions. But, assuming, again, that most mages have about twice as much AP as a carry's AD, a mage with Deathfire Touch will deal less burn damage than an AD champion with it. After that, consider than the burn damage is halved for AoE damage (which is a good chunk of what mages do) and they get outclassed even harder. Given that 7% magic penetration from Piercing Thoughts (the 5-point tier 3 Ferocity mastery) is probably going to prove necessary, Deathfire touch is the only mastery that it's actually reasonably possible to reach. Compared to all 3 of the bottom row of Ferocity masteries being not only viable but really, really good on AD champions and mages seem a bit underwhelming. This is all just interpretation based on the numbers on paper, since the custom game minimum player gate is making it hard to get into games to actually try things. But the awkward mastery paths combined with mana region nerfs (oh, did I mention that the Meditation mastery, with its 1.5% missing mana restore, seems like it would be almost required on every mage?) and the almost across the board cost increases and/or stat nerfs on AP items makes it seem like Riot is very heavily favoring AD champions with this update, if it keeps going the direction it's going.
: Don't hold your breath. The last time I reported an issue it got a reply but was later ignored. The patch went live and became a huge issue. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/zfggzrAX-mac-bugsplat
I expect they'll continue their pattern of ignoring Macs until after they've been broken for long enough to be noticed, honestly. I don't even know if they're aware of this one.
: I sometimes have the issue you describe here, but it's more of a problem with the Mac itself sometimes having a hard time opening certain programs rather than a problem with the Client (cause it works if I just leave my pc be for 10 mins).
Well, I haven't had a problem opening the live game client, and since it always happens right after a PBE patch, clearly something is happening in said patch that causes Macs to have trouble running the program.
Rioter Comments
: Don't forget Koggles has insanely powerful built in armor shred, mate.
I'm aware he does, though it still shouldn't be applying as effectively true damage. If I do apply the 28% armor shred, assuming it was maxed, I don't know the bot's spell order and he wasn't level 18 at the time, it comes to a necessary DPS for Kog'Maw of 1590, compared to the 606 that he should have had. Basically in order to do that much damage he would have needed a 5.0 attack speed. It's just something that I think Riot should look into, because I've noticed it against other AD carries as well, not just with Kog'Maw, so something is definitely off here. I noticed it originally with a Tristana, but I didn't think to get numbers for that, I'll try and test that one out later today if I have time after homework.
Rioter Comments
: Mass compilation of bugs (9/15/2014)
A bit more context on the Zed bug if you want to add it, the bugsplat occurs when you cast your Q after your shadow from your W has disappeared. Figured I'd throw this out there since I doubt Riot will find my thread on it at this point, and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who bothered to figure out the reproduction steps before posting about the bug.
: Zed Game Crash
I found this same thing last night and spent some time tracing the reproduction steps out and posted them for Riot to hopefully find.
: Zed's W > Q combo crashing games.
It doesn't make a difference who you're playing against or what the map is. I spent a good half hour tracing it and posted the reproduction steps last night.
: Zed crashes on pbe + other bugs.
I've actually found the reproduction steps for the Zed bug, I created a post for it last night.
: [ZED] – Razor Shuriken/Living Shadow crashing games
If anyone else has been having this issue and can confirm the reproduction steps, it would probably go a long way to helping Riot get a fix for this.
Rioter Comments
: I get what you mean but i and i do agree to some degree but there are key features that on live servers will stop him feeling overpowered. Firstly the meta right now in top lane is either tanky bruisers or utility mages with decent damage, these champions will not allow gnar to get within 400 range of them without punishment trust me. Secondly he has to be auto attacking or hitting q's to get the speed boost. In standoffs before a fight because of the way his q works and its relatively slow and dodgable projectile speed at long range, he wont be activating that w percent damage or move speed very often at all, not if you want to stay safe. The q returns a little after the first enemy hit and the red ring falls off pretty fast from experience if you arent attacking making it risky to try and proc it unless you are about to transform and know you will have relative safety in the near future. Mega gnar has the potential for huge plays and while his damage isnt as consistent as mini gnar he has quite a lot of burst and a game changing ultimate that can shrek teams. His damage can be higher in his mini form because he is wayyy squishier if it was as high or higher in his mega form that would be stupidly OP and if it was swapped and his mini form did less damage and his mega did more then whole new problems arise. I agree some numbers need to be tuned but i think what they have now is pretty cool and i'm looking forward to seeing it.
Number tuning is probably all that it needs, I agree. I just wanted to explain my reasoning for feeling that Gnar's Mega form seems underwhelming compared to his Mini form, when the whole concept seems like it should be the other way around. I'll leave some more here later when I actually have time to think about what I'm saying.
: Most of your concerns can be solved with number tweaking which is what the PBE is for right? But the point of the champion is to manage forms, having control means re balancing across the board. If riot were to do what you said people could just not fight in mega gnar form and stay in mini gnar form most of the time defeating the project and purpose of the champ and making him into an AD carry His w and passive do seem strong but i think its more compensated for than you think. The later you go into the game the more rage you build with each mini gnar attack, couple this with your scaling attack speed and youll find that there is a very real cap to the amount of w procs you can get off before transforming all throughout the game and due to the way riot scaled it, it steadily rises slowly as you level. The movement speed i feel could be toned down, mobility is really broken in this game i mean you can have all the damage you want but if none of it hits due to slipperiness or you can chase endlessly then somethings wrong. The high Ms i think is included because of his tiny range of 400 going up to a measly 502 at lvl 18 this puts him in real danger early without hop leveled and all throughout the game if he didnt have significant move speed. The reason why a lot of people may think mini gnar is overbearing is because he functions nicely with high damage in an AD carry style, but they need to understand this high consistent damage was purposely gated by the transformation for some burst, CC and tankiness.
It's this AD carry feel of Mini Gnar that I think is part of the problem. Unfortunately it feels like his Mega form is a handicap to compensate for an extremely powerful Mini Gnar, whereas Mega form seems like it should be the more powerful one, the one that defines his champion identity. Given the timed nature of Mega Gnar, and that it's something that you work to build up to, and then lasts for a brief time before reverting, I feel that the Mega form should be where the emphasis is placed, not the Mini form, especially since he only gets all of his abilities in Mega form anyways. Mega Gnar should be, well, mega. It shouldn't feel like it's in the way of Mini Gnar's overwhelming strength, and that's the feeling that I get sometimes.
Rioter Comments
: First Big Update to PBE Summoner's Rift
Well I was going to point out the lack of ground texture on mac, but it looks like Riot's already caught that one. The floor of blue side base is actually slightly higher than the ground, resulting in the very bottom of a champion not being displayed. This includes indicators such as Red and Blue Buff, and Sunfire Cape, being invisible inside the base due to being displayed underground. I didn't get to check purple side base since my game crashed before I got that far. Clickboxes for jungle monsters seem a bit off. I often find myself clicking through small jungle monsters, most notably Blue Buff minions and the small golem of double golems. This causes me to walk to the location of the minion without actually attacking it, which is rather annoying as it causes clears to feel clunky as well as to be slower. I have had this happen once or twice with champions as well, causing me to walk into the enemy team instead of stutter-stepping them.
: Hey, has anyone else noticed a slight issue where you try to click on a jungle camp (most notable for me on Dragon and the new wraith/birds camp), where you try to right-click on the monster to attack it but you end up clicking on the terrain behind it? It might just be me but it feels like there's some kind of disconnect between the click-box and the actual model.
I've noticed that too, mostly on blue buff minions but occasionally with other monsters as well.
: SO I played a game as soul stealer Vladimir in custom. Tried for Dragon..... dragon didn't attack me even though I was right next to him. Tried for baron and same effect. I didn't even use his blood pool. Any confirmation on this bug? Also I love the Baron Spawn animation, GOOD WORK RIOT!
I'm pretty sure Dragon and Baron aren't able to attack anyone right now for some reason, I tested with several different champions and they just sat there the whole time.
: PBE Bug Mega Thread - Summoner's Rift Update
Tiamat and Hydra actives do not work, though the passives do. Dragon and Baron do not attack at all.
: Crashed at loading screen on Mac 10.9.3 when doing a custom game. Bug splat report sent.
Also crashing on my mac, I'm currently patching the client on windows to see if I can run it there. I had the mac client crash four times in a row at exactly 88% each time.
: Khazix changes, not the right direction
I think that what really needs to happen is a mini-rework/rebalance of power of Kha'zix's evolutions, so that there's not a set path that you follow that is undisputedly the best but that the player needs to decide what they need to bring to their team at each stage of the game and evolve with that in mind. I've got another discussion with a lot more detail, but my thoughts in general are that the base spells are fine where they are, the evolved Q needs to do less to isolated but more to targets who aren't, the evolved W needs something that will make it competitive with the other three, the evolved E is generally in a good spot, and that we might need to shift a bit of power from the evolved R to the base R in order to make it less mandatory as a first evolution. What I would like to see is a Kha'zix whose playstyle can adapt and evolve as the game progresses based on what combination of three evolutions he picks.
: Oh, indeed. I was just wondering if there was a slight possibility of Kha'Zix' Void Assault being more than just 'meh' if not evolved - making the stealth longer could fix the issue. As for post-R cast spell bonuses, I believe yours are pretty much spot-on, although I was wondering about how to separate regular Void Assault from the evolved one, and came to a conclusion: aside from bonus spell effects - which would be pretty nice - evolved Void Assault could double the % movement speed bonus if facing isolated targets. (You know, isolation is a pretty cool mechanic and Kha could capitalize on it way more than just hitting stronger Qs).
That's true, though I don't think I'd go with doubled movespeed, perhaps increasing it from 40% to 60%. That would make it similar to Rengar's movement speed on his ultimate as well. I'll write this stuff up a bit nicer and stick it into the original post in a bit.
: Yes, a rebalance of power would definitely be nice. Truth be told, I always evolve my R now even though I used to evolve my Q or E pre-nerfs to his R - only because if I don't, I feel like I was handicapping myself on purpose. Void Assault could definitely use a little bit of power in its regular form, but bear in mind that giving it a 3rd change might make stealth-opposers even more butthurt about Kha'Zix stealthing all around the place. Bonus MS/longer duration (so that Kha'Zix is more consistent with his evolution) might not be good ideas as well. The idea of granting a bonus to next evolved ability sounds sweet and grants an emphasis on the 'Assault' of Void Assault. I fear it might become a little bit too much of a, so called, 'burden of knowledge' - thus forcing players fighting Kha'Zix to learn more about the champion - and while I'm all for new combo-es (for Kha'Zix doesn't neccesarily have a lot of them atm), you probably know that champions such as Yasuo can also utilize many comboes and force to learn about them - and look where it took him.
Honestly the duration of the base Void Assault is almost meaningless. You can't move very far in one second, even if he had three charges on his base form. If Kha'zix wants to stealth around the place he would need that extra second. I'm only thinking of moving some power to his base spell so that it doesn't feel worthless if you don't evolve it first, but then the problem is that we need it to feel impactful when you do evolve it. That's why I thought of bonus effects on his next evolved ability after using an evolved Void Assault, because that way Void Assault's power scales a bit more with spell rank, being a bit weaker early and stronger late when he has more evolutions. However, if extra power if being added to Void Assault's evolution, some of it needs to be removed somewhere, perhaps the duration of the stealth could move down to 1.5 seconds or something. I don't think that an extra burden of knowledge would be too much of a problem honestly because every champion requires knowledge of them in order to properly play against them. So if the next evolved ability were powered up after using Void Assault, the question is what they would do. Evolved Q: If used after Evolved Void Assault, Taste Their Fear applies on hit effects. Evovled W: If used after Evolved Void Assault, Kha'zix heals a percentage of the damage dealt from Void Spikes. Evolved E: If used after Evolved Void Assault, Leap's cooldown is reduced by a few seconds. Evolved R: I'm not sure if there should be anything here. I'm just throwing more ideas out here. Of course, doing stuff like this would require more rebalancing of his Q, W, and E as well. I think if the Evolved Q doesn't get bonus damage on non-isolated targets then something like on-hit effects after casting Evolved R wouldn't be too much of a problem, and that would allow him to team fight a bit better in the mid game because he could still do damage to grouped targets, but because it would require level 11 to do it wouldn't be utterly broken in the early game. His W evolution needs more power anyways so I'm not going to touch that right now, and his E could possibly have its reset moved to the base spell but changed to a kill only reset instead of a kill and assist reset.
: The thing is, your perception about his R evolution is kind of relative. It is good compared to his regular R, but his regular R on the other hand is pretty much garbage. Considering how many nerfs were aimed at reducing his evolved power weren't separated from the base ability, and thus rendered it a bit on the weak side. I cannot negate the power of instant stealth, though. What also struck me is that we have little to no contact with devs regarding this change, and while it might be better to leave it fully in their hands, I'd rather they gave a sign they care without just pushing the mini-rework of Kha'Zix live and making the champion feel weaker to most.
That's a good point, I typically evolve his R first when I play him so I sort of forgot how bad it is if you don't evolve it. Perhaps a bit of a rebalance of power is necessary for that, what if we took the base R and added that third charge? The evolution would then just be the extra second of stealth, and if necessary there could be something additional added to it, for instance a next spell buff, or a next evolved spell buff, so that he can't get crazy stuff early game. That way we could increase the power of the base ultimate, so it doesn't feel like a mandatory first evolution, and then still have something satisfying for when you do evolve it. And in fact, a next evolved spell buff would give inclination to evolve it second or even third, which could allow for more early variety of evolutions.
: That's one great idea - and it would synergize with new R as well so people wouldn't complain as much as they do now. I never thought of lifesteal being procced by Q, truth be told, but that could be a thing considering it would increase Kha'Zix' survivability in melee, where he's in greatest danger. I wonder if a red will respond to this thread, for it is becoming huge and has a lot of ideas on how to fix evolutions without making one of them superior or inferior to other ones - and that's what happened to his R evolution at this point.
A red response would indeed be nice, and some Riot insight on the matter could create some interesting discussion. However, I don't want to get my hopes up too much on that, because it's much more likely they would just look over the stuff here rather than respond and draw attention. There's just so much to consider when we're messing with Kha'zix. Ideally we want all evolutions to be equal based on the situation, but without the ability to play test things it's hard to judge what would be balanced or not. I feel like the evolved E and R are in good spots, though perhaps we could move some power from evolved E to base E if it remained a must-have evolution. I think Q needs less power on the evolution, and it needs to be more consistently useful power (something that doesn't only apply to isolation) and the W is just in general not that good of an evolution and could do with some more power. Without being able to test concepts though it's hard to say exactly what should be done to really achieve that ideal balance.
: Uh, for some reason I cannot reply to your latest post. Anyway. The problem with snowballing is always present within an assassin's kit for if they were not able to snowball, they would have to either have almost no scaling towards lategame, so they wouldn't really be assassins, or just have super weak abilities, therefore cannot kill = not an assassin. My original point was that Live abilities just add a flat, nonscaling bonus and new Q evolution does not, and while that is true, I believe it captures the playstyle much better than it used to do. The problem is, you will be team-reliant to kill things unless the enemy team is plain stupid. And since you will be more team-reliant (squishy, stealth as your only defensive steroid, needs displacements to deal meaningful damage) I would opt for a more pokey build if his all-in isn't that good anymore. Nevertheless, if evolutions change and somehow we will be able to create a splitpusher Kha'Zix, I am sure evolved Q will be a beast. Hell, if Kha'Zix' Q is supposed to hit like a wet noodle outside of isolation, why not make it proc on-hit effects? You know, Lane'Zix would definitely be pleased with his Q's vs his top-lane enemies were receiving bonus damage and a slow each time he struck them instead of having to use that stupid AA animation (which is cool, but too long to be useful nevertheless).
I think we might have too many nested replies to continue doing it with that string of them. Amyways, yes, it would be nice if his evolved Q got some sort of bonus to compensate for doing to damage to grouped targets (though on hit effects might be too much since that would allow it to proc things like life steal, Hydra, and Trinity Force in addition to his passive) but I think something could easily be done. Maybe if he casts his evolved Q while out of vision to enemies it deals bonus damage, so if he's stealthed from his ultimate he can get bonus damage by coming out of it with his Q. I dunno. Besides, not all playstyles would favor evolving Q anyways, if all evolutions were equal, which I think would be the ultimate goal of any changes.
: Kha'Zix's new Q evolution is too powerful compared to the base ability
I'm not a fan of the way the new evolution is done, personally. The increase of evolving his Q, while it is massive, only applies to targets that are isolated. Any target that is in a group will not receive any bonus damage from the evolved Q. So evolving his Q allows you to unfailingly delete lone enemies, while lightly scratching even the squishiest carry in a teamfight because the base damage and scaling of the regular skill were reduced as well. Personally, I would advocate a rebalance of power on his evolutions, to allow Kha'zix to actually make choices at different stages of the game, and so that each combination of evolutions could facilitate a different playstyle for the bug.
: What I meant is that it pretty much has two outcomes after evolving Q, should you do it early for maximum snowball and 1v1 power: 1. You win. You did actually win, that's cool, here, get an ability with overloaded base damages and a huge-ass bonus ad ratio on top of it. 2. You lose. Whether you lost a 1v1 or got camped all day, that means your base damage ain't that good because it scales with levels as well as ability rank and a huge bonus AD ratio is not that useful because a starved assassin doesn't have that much AD after all. Considering how they buffed his isolation bonus, it might've solved the #2 concern, but hypersnowballing is still an issue.
Unfortunately I think snowballing will always be an issue with any assassin playstyle, because if you balance them assuming that they will snowball then they're worthless if they don't but if you balance them assuming they won't then they'll be godly when they do. The problem with Kha's Q on the PBE right now is that it still doesn't feel impactful when you aren't hitting isolated targets, even after you evolve it. I don't think that he should be required to pick off lone targets in order to do actually feel like he's doing damage.
: I like how they try to make the W evolve more viable, then make the Q so bad that you have to evolve it to kill anyone. It's going to to back to the Muramana W spam, kite, and poke days.
Unfortunately even if you evolve Q it still doesn't kill anyone if they're anywhere near anything at all. Does Kha's W actually proc Muramana? I was never able to tell if it did when I used to build it, if it does that's actually not a bad idea.
: After at least 10 games against LeBlanc, I've never been assassinated that quickly, because I can deal with her damage. I agree with you : she needs a nerf, but actually, if you can keep her away from you, and force her to use Distortion to get to you she won't be able to do anything. Anticipate her moves, CC her when she tries to silence you. You will be silenced, because no matter how fast your react, you won't be able to avoid it, but you will be able to trade back at the end of it. I've lost my lane against a LeBlanc once out of 6 games. That's a good ratio. But yeah, her damage is a little bit too high.
Pretty much in order to beat a Leblanc you have to be able to outplay her. Yes, on such a high skillcap, outplay based champion like Leblanc that's hard (if they know what they're doing, If not it's really easy), but it's doable. If they tuned down the ratios on her ult and possibly her Q as well and removed the ability to trigger a Sigil with another Sigil, thus removing a targeted silence, I think it'd be a lot more bearable. Not to mention, there's several champions who have the potential to just eat Leblanc alive at most stages of the game. A good Syndra can stun her out of distortion and proceed to completely delete her health bar before it wears off. Diana can survive the early game with good shields and good timing of her E to pull Leblanc out of distortion, and she scales so much better into the mid game with her items. And if a Talon gets even a slight advantage it's all over.
: 1) After the Kha'Zix nerfs recently, (the one before the one we are currently talking about), I learned that maxed and evolved W is incredibly strong for mid Kha'Zix. My max order would be W, Q, E, and evolve order would be W, E, and most of the time R, for extra survivability. Evolved W Kha'Zix gives him more pressure in lane, without having to go all in often. Now with the extra slow percentage on evolved W, it makes Kha'Zix mid stronger, but weaker in other positions. 2) Kha'Zix top lane max order is the general Q, W, E, unless you max E second, which is completely stupid in my opinion (no offense to those who do max it) but the evolution path can vary. There is the standard Q, E, R, or the R, E, Q, but I have seen a quite odd variation, that works well, but I personally don't like it. R, Q, E. Since you have lots of survivability with the 50% damage reduction, you can afford to evolve it first. If you evolve Q second, you get your damage much quicker, and you can survive with just your evolved ult. Evolve leap last for resets. After the nerfs, you can't do this, due to no more damage reduction, a severe nerf to Q damage and scaling. 3) These recent nerfs make Kha into a bruiser jungler with only kill potential when alone with the enemy. This completely wrecks Kha's ability to jump in to a fight, destroy a weaker enemy, and get out. As Roryrai said, his damage to grouped enemies is incredibly hard. Kha was really strong with his ability to kill someone and get out. Now he possible can't get out, or even kill the target. Whoever said that the stealth will be enough for Kha'Zix to survive, Kha can be blown up with lots of aoe, and any small aoe stealth that doesn't need as much skill to land (like a Lulu ult), can screw Kha'Zix, because he can't stealth right away after the first charge either. Kha'Zix is vulnerable to all cc when he jumps in alone, waiting for his team to follow. Kha'Zix maybe be a stronger duelist, but he won't be able to bring anything later. If anyone disagrees, feel free to tell me how you feel.
1) That's an interesting thought, I haven't played him in mid in a long time so I don't really know how that goes with recent changes. I did it a lot in season 3 but I would always max Q first, then either W or E depending on what I needed more. Starting red elixir and getting first blood at level 2 every game was always entertaining though. 2) I don't feel like the damage reduction removal is all that terrible. What that means is that he's either got to have dome defensive items to survive a fight or he's got to be searching for picks and trying to 1v1 enemies as much as possible. Or, he just doesn't evolve the ultimate so soon and completely changes his playstyle. As I mentioned at the end of my main post, I think each choice of three evolutions should enable a certain playstyle for Kha'zix, and his ultimate is more of a fighter ability than an assassin ability. 3) I do agree that in his current state Kha'zix will probably really only be viable in the jungle and will not be able to be played as an assassin anymore, or else will be stuck split pushing because he doesn't have much in the way of team fights since his evolved Q does no damage.
: im sorry but this is totally horrible idea. go head nerf le blanc and yasuo they are very op but why kha ? he can be killed somehow but not painfull like le blanc or yasuo
Kha'zix is strong and he has been for a while, but I feel like it doesn't need to be a nerf so much as a rebalance of power so that he can actually really justify all of his different evolutions and so that he makes real tradeoffs for taking an evolution over a different one.
: Seems like the {{champion:107}} an{{champion:92}}treatment to me.{{item:3070}}
Rengar actually isn't bad right now, and Riven actually requires a bit of skill to snowball after they changed her. Kha'zix does need nerfs, but I think that the best way to do it is to give him a few nerfs and a few buffs in other unused areas, like his evolved W that no one ever takes. Ideally each evolution should be situationally viable and should have clear best-case and worst-case scenarios for taking each evolution.
: I don't like the idea of Kha becoming a bruiser/fighter. Even his lore makes him the perfect assassin! I wish there was a better way to nerf him so he's more balanced while letting him be that terrifying assassin you do not want to find in a bush while wandering around on your own. I really liked your breakdown of his new skills and how it effects him. I don't play him much and this gave me a better understanding of what players are thinking and doing with him and thereby how these changes effect how he's played.
An assassin does fit with his lore, I agree. But his lore (not the Rengar part) is all about him evolving and growing stronger. And his quote on the lore is "Kill. Consume. Adapt." and the key there is adapt. I think that while Kha'zix would personally prefer an assassin style, if necessary he would be capable of evolving and adapting to become more of a fighter if that's what was required to best take on his prey. Not to mention, in the description of his fight with Rengar, that fight lasts a long time, it's not just an instant kill for either side. I'm glad you found the skill breakdown helpful.
: Kha'Zix is pretty complex to nerf. Also his nerfs seem much bigger than they may be. Killing an evolved ability isn't killing the champion because then you just evolve a different ability, so taking away the damage reduction from his evolved R is just Riot being blatant about wanting Khaz to evolve his W instead. So take this into consideration when testing the kha'zix nerfs.
I don't think they're trying to force us into evolving a certain skill over another just because they nerf one and buff the other. I think they're trying to get his skills to the point where each evolution is situationally viable over each other evolution, and that's something that I would like to see happen.
: well even though i do aggree to most of your arguments i have to criticize few things ofc this is a nerf overall but not everything is bad about this. as you already stated the change to his ultimate is not changing a lot and to be honest: THIS is the first evolve for every jungle kha zix at least in competitive scene. the damage adjustment on his q is very annoying: accept from catching someone or cleaning up from a split enemy team it's completely useless to evolve this skill. lastly i want to point out that i have never seen someone maxing e secound :D maybe i'm mistaken but almost every viable guide tells you to max w second all in all: yes, q has to be changed but w is fine for me as it offers the possibility for some sort of a very offensive early game assasin while altering to an off-tank by evolving it in the later game phase
Well, personally, I've never actually looked at a guide for Kha'zix, and I've had reasonable success with maxing E second just so that I can use it more often, but that's just me. I tend to just sort of wing it when I first play champions and when I figure out what works well for me I go with that. Anyways, what I'd hope to see eventually with the evolutions is a Kha'zix that can choose what to evolve based on what role he wants/needs to fulfill in each game. I feel like if the Q is changed from what it is on the current pbe patch then the W will just be worthless to evolve again. Just adding brief vision isn't a huge bonus to what it was before and to me it's still not worth evolving.
: Keyword: At Live. I am aware that his evolved isolated Q is scaling with champion level on the PBE and that kind of worries me about overly snowball nature of KZ.
I suppose in a way it's almost like snowballing without snowballing, huh.
: Oh, now that you clarified everything I feel your ideas are definitely neat and spot-on. What I wanted to say is that while his evolved Q does crush isolated targets (as it should), his non-isolated one indeed hits like a wet noodle. Something could be changed about it, maybe the isolation range, which is kind of too large (but then again, old isolation range made teams having Kha'Zix and AoE burst mages like Brand a nightmare to play against). I know it might be going a little bit too far, but what if Unseen Threat was giving a stack of bonus champion AA damage as well as 1 stack of a bonus spell effect? Like Q treating target as if it was isolated, W doing something neat (armor shred/healing regardless of distance maybe?) and E applying an AoE slow to all targets hit - that would definitely change his playstyle, BUT would also become a good limiting factor to chained stealths I have suggested before - a KZ that wants to fight would severely gimp his damage output (EDIT: by spamming R without fighting at all). My idea about Kha'Zix' Leap resetting regardless of having it evolved or not was actually based on the fact that unevolved E's range is so pitiful anyways that it tends to bug and fail to jump over walls sometimes. Evolution would still be required to cross huge amounts of terrain in no time. As for W, bonus damage to minions might actually not be the best idea, but then again, it would allow Kha'Zix to fulfill a role he could not before - to effectively poke and siege/countersiege. It could be a way to compensate for weakening bruiser Kha'Zix. I agree that bonus damage might actually be a better idea, though. It might be a little bit difficult to balance if that would happen (think level 9 Kha'Zix using spikes when engaged on to burst somebody and heal himself after which he would simply Leap away or stealth). **ONE** thing would push Kha'Zix over the top and would make abominations like Bruiser'Zix or Tank'Zix to appear, and that would be adding any sort of disruption/hard CC onto his Leap. Imagine if LeBlanc's W silenced. Before I end my wall of text, last topic I would like to talk about - did you notice that, at Live, none of Kha'Zix' evolutions scale with ability rank nor his level? They just add a flat boost. Making his new evolutions scale with levels/ad/ability rank/whatever will definitely make it more interesting, but won't they make him even more snowbally than he already is?
His Evolved Q's isolation damage scales with champion level on the PBE.
: I wholeheartedly agree that the Evolved Taste Their Fear is doing ridiculously nutty damage against isolated targets...but the problem is that the isolation radius is so damn wide that you don't get the bonus if there is anything at all nearby. Minions, monsters, 2v2s, half mile off a turret...the only time this bonus actually kicks in is either Dragon/Baron (...holy mother of Dragon/Baron abuse case...) or if you're smacking the last monster in a Jungle camp. Or if your opponents are retarded. However, I don't agree that the change needs to be a buff to non-isolated damage. I'd rather that they shaved back a little bit of the Isolation range so that being out of position is punishable, instead of requiring them to be completely out of the fight for isolation. I recognize that the old isolation range was stupidly small, so maybe we can find middle ground here? For once? Rito pls? You can go ahead and adjust the damage (holy mother of double scaling) once it's plausible for isolation to occur against competent opponents. I'm also not sure if the idea of making Evol TTF a one-point wonder (base isolation scales off champion level) is a good idea here. ---- Alright, so Riot wants Void Spikes to be Kha's utility tool, hence the boost to slow strength and the reveal. Problem is, we still haven't targeted the REAL reason why anybody took the release Evol in the first place: DAMAGE BOOST. Very few people are going to give a damn about an extra 30% slow, and the reveal isn't going to do much in 90% of situations, barring maybe a Baron face check...and we're supposed to have Scrying Orb for that one. "But bush checking!" But your whole goddamn mana bar and only CC, thrown into an empty bush. 20% bonus damage to monsters is kinda neat, but I didn't really get much jungle speed out of maxing it first - it was mostly Evol TTF murdering the Wight camp. TBH, I'd rather slap on something like an Armor Shred. Kha can already spam out slows between his Ult and regular W, so additional utility should be targeted at not-CC (assassin with a stun? NTY). Besides, the reveal is somewhat redundant when you can already check bushes by listening for the explosion sound. ---- Even though nothing changed about Evolved Leap, I'm still not 100% sure if we want it to be "The Evolution that every Kha player takes, eventually." I mean, full squish, bruiser or otherwise, nobody wants to give up a mobility reset. Then again, it's probably the most balanced evolution and can be taken at variable points in the game, so we probably shouldn't be fixing what isn't broken. ---- Evolved Ult is a bit of a weird one. The question is this: what are we emphasizing here? Evol Q is damage, Evol W is utility, and Evol E is mobility. Should we go back to Evol Ult = Defense? Do we make it the jack-of-all? Or what if we instead focused on making Evol Ult a **complete playstyle shift?** The thing about the nature of his Ult is that, unlike his bursty QWE, it focuses on sustained fight presence. Indeed, the bruiser build almost entirely revolves around parking yourself in the middle of a fight and duking it out until a reset gets forced. So, here's my nutty suggestion: - Base cooldown of QWE increased by 1-2s. (keep Evol Q change) - Evol Ult decreases the cooldown of QWE by 1-2s. - Each Ult cast decreases the cooldown of QWE by 0.5-1s (see: Mystic Shot). - Keep 3x Ult. - Increase W damage vs. Monsters to ~30-40% to compensate for early game. Essentially, if you want to brawl like a bruiser then you take his Ult, but you'll lose some of your burst damage in the process (either Evol Q isolation, Evol W shred or Evol E reset burst). Numbers can be adjusted accordingly.
When you said playstyle shift on the ultimate, I actually got the idea I've posted in another comment, so that it's not nested under a bunch of things. Each evolution should give him something, and those three things should come together to create a playstyle that defines Kha'zix's job in that game.
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