: Gargoyle Stoneplate Does Not Work
Yes. It had an issue getting through the PBE whitelist, but should be working appropriately tomorrow morning. Sorry for the inconvenience.
: I feel like my biggest issue here is -- what would I pick it for? If it's for an AoE slow then I would have rather kept the 4 seconds of it; if it's for the crit reduction I would've kept that. What I can gleam from this is that it's going to be shuffled to a more support-oriented item instead of something that top laners or junglers will buy, something that you kind of use in tandem with CC you already have for a more 'burst' slow in between. But I don't really like this direction; as an Illaoi enthusiast on the live servers, I'm sure you can understand why I really enjoy the longer duration slow. Also I know you've addressed this before, but the loss of health really does feel kinda shitty on Juggernauts. The upped resists are nice, but the changes are actually a double-hit to Sterak's given that it becomes harder to proc the higher your resists are, and the lowered scaling on the shield itself. Would it be possible for you to explore some possible buffs, either to the HP or AD it gives, or maybe just the decay rate of the shield? It really feels like it's gone too quickly sometimes, in between its fast decay and the damage that you're already taking. If nothing else, I'd kinda enjoy if the AD steroid stayed for as long as you were in combat, like how Maw works. I appreciate your response, by the way.
It's supposed to be for when you need extra protection from auto attackers. If it's not accomplishing that purpose, we should address it. Yeah, Sterak's might need something, especially for its intended core audience. Thanks for the feedback :)
: I like how doran's shield can help with last hitting now. I love going top lane as a tank and last hitting was always pretty hard imo. However, why did sunfire need to be nerfed. I feel like when a tank needs wave clear to help hold the line against aggressive pushers, sunfire was a go-to item. Was is overpowered or something? Also, please watch the randuin changes. Armor pen/ lethality, armor reduction, and true damage already exist to bypass our defenses. The randuin change to allow crits to be more effective might be a bit much on top of all of that. I haven't tested it yet though so maybe I am overreacting. The other changes look pretty interesting. Can't wait to see how it all turns out.
Mostly we want to make Sunfire not great at both pvp combat and pve combat (wave pushing, in this case). This change is aimed mostly at making it worse at pvp combat, while being mostly the same, or even better in some cases, for wave pushing.
: I tried the Gargoyle item on Zac, and I couldn't activate the active effect.
It's bugged on PBE today due to a whitelisting issue, but we believe we've fixed it for tomorrow's build. Sorry for the inconvenience.
: I have a question regarding Gargoyel Stoneplates active: Is the dmg reduction just for the users autos and abilitys or for his item actives/spells too? For example if a tank like {{champion:113}} walks to baron with activating Metallicize, can she still steal it with her normal smite dmg and ignite someone for the full dmg or is {{summoner:11}} /{{summoner:14}} /{{summoner:31}} / item dmg like protobelt (strange combo i know) reduced by it too for the cost of this rly strong active? I like most of the changes, especialy deadmans (for example looks stronger on heca/udyr together with the udyr changes on pbe)and the experimental switch of abysal/banshees for example. But randuins i don't know if it will fall to weak and Stoneplates to stong (like coc on release). I still would buy ga as an adc just late if even needed and hope if i fill another role fellow adc do it aswell and not purchase it early so we have no dmg in teamfight.
> I have a question regarding Gargoyel Stoneplates active: Is the dmg reduction just for the users autos and abilitys or for his item actives/spells too? For example if a tank like walks to baron with activating Metallicize, can she still steal it with her normal smite dmg and ignite someone for the full dmg or is / / / item dmg like protobelt (strange combo i know) reduced by it too for the cost of this rly strong active? It should reduce all non-true damage.
: Regarding damage over time spells and adaptive helm, will the helm reduce the damage from the remaining damage ticks of the spell? For example, Malzahar's malefic visions deals 27.5 magic damage every half second. For the first tick, it deals 27.5 damage. Will the remaining ticks deal 23.375 damage? Will this also apply to persistent AOE damage over time spells as well such as Singed's poison trail or Galio's Winds of War? Will Adaptive Helm reduce damage from bonus on hit magic damage such as Kayle's righteous fury, Teemo's toxic shot, or Jax's grandmaster's might and empower?
: Hi RiotRepertoir, Can you comment on how you think these changes will affect AP champions? It seems like in almost all instances AP champs are going to take a big hit here: - Abyssal being swapped with Banshee's is kind of an overall nerf, I think, since it will mean that certain kinds of champions will not be able to take all-ins vs. Banshee rushers... especially champions who don't have a lot of poke and need to take an all-in off a single spell. Fizz, Lissandra, Morgana, Diana come to mind. (I know Morg isn't played much mid anymore, but...). It's also yet another damage nerf, after AP has been stripped off of a lot of items in the past year or so. - Guardian Angel gives AD, so it's no longer buildable either. It no longer gives MR which is nice, but it feels like ADs already have a big advantage in "utility itemization" when they have QSS, Maw, Edge of Night, and now GA in their pocket. APs are left with only Zhonya's which, while powerful, is still only situationally useful on a lot of champions, and Banshee's Veil which counters other AP champions harder than it does most ADs, as I mentioned above. - MR/lvl being ubiquitous is a clear nerf. AP was reduced across the board to compensate for removing Aegis, but this is just a swing back in the other direction, and it doesn't look like compensation is forthcoming. - Adaptive Helm is obvious targeted towards certain kinds of AP champions that are very spammy, and there's only a few of those. But I feel APs have been hefted up by MR itemization having been "meh" for a while, and changing that will disrupt a delicate balance. I'm not sure any one of those changes is massive enough to be a problem on their own, but bundled together I have a feeling that non-utility AP champions will be in a very poor spot after this patch. Would love to hear your thoughts.
> I'm not sure any one of those changes is massive enough to be a problem on their own, but bundled together I have a feeling that non-utility AP champions will be in a very poor spot after this patch. Would love to hear your thoughts. The whole package of changes probably reads at least slightly too negative for magic damage dealers, so it's something I'll try and get ahead of. I lean toward possibly making some of the HP/MR items less efficient, but I'll have to run numbers and see what seems reasonable. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
: So, does the damage reduction from Gargoyles Stoneplate affect True Damage like Cho ult? And does the health gained by this active fully count towards extra Health? Just saying: if the answer to the first question is no, and the second is yes (both of which sound reasonable), then Cho will eat ADCs from basicly full health. I like that you're making GA better for ADCs. Also that we finally get a AD/Armor Item. Finally we can get something against Zed, Kha'Zix, etc while not hurting our damage output as much.
> So, does the damage reduction from Gargoyles Stoneplate affect True Damage like Cho ult? And does the health gained by this active fully count towards extra Health? Just saying: if the answer to the first question is no, and the second is yes (both of which sound reasonable), then Cho will eat ADCs from basicly full health. No. Yes. Cho is definitely something to watch out for here. > Finally we can get something against Zed, Kha'Zix, etc while not hurting our damage output as much. The "as much" part of this is really important. At balance, purchasing this item still needs to hurt AD champs' damage noticeably in order to be balanced. This just make the item less out of the way.
: So many changes to durability items, some bold and commendable - and no change at all to Ohmwrecker? This was the perfect opportunity to do something about it.
I actually had some changes to it that positioned it as a competitor to other HP/Armor items, but we chose to keep our focus mostly on setting up a good framework. That item has a long way to go before becoming useful, and I'm also not sure players actually _want_ that particular effect to be useful, so it's likely back to the drawing board on it (hopefully sooner rather than later).
: While the slow strength buff to Randuin's is good, I don't see a lot of reason to pick it up if it only offers the slow and the crit damage reduction is removed. Also while I love love LOVE Abyssal Scepter being a tank item, it sounds like it will just be there to increase the ambient magic damage in a fight and coordinate with teammates. Is there any chance the damage amp effect will do anything similar to Black Cleaver? I agree with the other changes, and love the changes to GA and the new items. It'll be incredibly satisfying to beaf up my tank in a teamfight. Will Adaptive Helm work on effects like Kog'Maw's W, or Brand's passive? EDIT: Would Adaptive Helm work on the first instance of magic damage once its passive is on cooldown? Like if Cassiopeia hits a tank with Q-E-E-E would it reduce the damage of the Q poison or E damage? Do you worry new Abyssal will be used by mages/assassins as a bruiser item to sure up their weakness of being squishy without losing too much damage?
> Is there any chance the damage amp effect will do anything similar to Black Cleaver? For this release, it's unlikely, but it could probably use a little bit of gameplay or at least some effect to make it pop and let people remember it's there. > Will Adaptive Helm work on effects like Kog'Maw's W, or Brand's passive? Yes. > Would Adaptive Helm work on the first instance of magic damage once its passive is on cooldown? Like if Cassiopeia hits a tank with Q-E-E-E would it reduce the damage of the Q poison or E damage? If Cassiopeia uses Q > E > E > E on someone with Adaptive Helm, it will get mitigated as follows: The first Q tick will deal 100% damage. All subsequent will deal 85% damage. The first E will deal 100% damage. All subsequent will deal 85% damage. > Do you worry new Abyssal will be used by mages/assassins as a bruiser item to sure up their weakness of being squishy without losing too much damage? Only on certain mages that really thrive on survivability, like Vlad, for example.
: AP mid's/top's being able to build Banshee's Veil without trading much damage for it will allow them to build it much sooner without being punished for it in team fight damage thus making lanning against AP assassins insanely easy. Ad mid/top/marksmen being able to build GA without losing much damage from a regular build will allow them to build it into assassins early thus killing assassins early/mid game advantages which is why people play them. Basically you are doing a massive nerf to assassins which will push them out of play. I understand and appreciate you not wanting tanks to build GA's but find another way don't ruin assassin playstyle it will be bad for the overall health of the game as you will spend the next few weeks trying to balance all of them to the new item meta.
GA and Banshee's should be made to not be particularly viable lane rush items if they're going to be Healthy, or at least have obvious tradeoffs to them. Most feedback today seems to suggest the tradeoffs aren't there yet. Out of curiosity, in what ways do you think GA is meaningfully different from Zhonya's in this regard? Thanks for the feedback.
: Sorry, you may have already answered this, but I'd love to know if there are any plans for compensatory buffs to health based champs like Dr. Mundo who rely on max hp more than resistances. Cinderhulk junglers are also likely to take a hit as well.
Warmog's has some buffs which might help, but it will be probably minimal as far as compensation goes. We've talked about bumping up some Health ratios on tanks specifically to compensate for some of these Health nerfs, but we also want to make sure we're not solving for a problem that doesn't exist (or at least misjudging its severity).
: The Banshees changes are going to be terrible for champions whose only way to pop it is also the spell their combo is gated around. Hell, this is already the case, but as a tank item it feels far less bad to play against than this new iteration that carries will be picking up will do. I may be biased as a Diana main, but when Q is your only way to pop Banshees, and the spell your entire combo relies on, it doesn't result in a good experience. It was the same problem when Edge of Night was heavily overtuned and in the meta. I think if you're going ahead with the Banshees changes, it should at least be changed to an active rather than a passive. It discriminates against certain champions far more than others, and those champions aren't necessarily in a good place already. Most meta mid laners have a way to reliably keep it popped without affecting their overall damage output. It's those out of meta that should be afraid of this change.
I think your concern is pretty reasonable, though I don't think making it an active will be much better in this regard (unless it's just on a really long cooldown or something?) What makes the most sense to me is trying to get it into a spot where it doesn't feel like a good lane rush item in most cases, at least without there being a significant cost to the purchase in the early game. I tend to agree it's not there yet. I think the item can be good for the game overall, but probably not as a consistently viable lane rush.
: Can we make sure that the stone plate final icon still has an evil smile on it. It's grown on me.
: Any chance on buffing Titanic Hydra to compensate for the HP changes?
Intuitively that makes some sense, but Titanic gains at least some defensive value (obviously loses some due to item synergies) relative to its peers by not being a victim of the Health nerfs that the split items got, so I'm hesitant. I'll be thinking about Titanic and whether we need to do something for it (or perhaps Ravenous).
: How should cinderhulk junglers perform any better after these changes? The tank items don't help in the jungle of when ganking and with less dmg and more durability tank jungelers are even more reliant on their team to do the dmg which is bad when you have to pressure the enemy jungler. So I see not a single thing that helps cinderhulk junglers jungling or ganking. So 0 positive changes to these junglers in the jungle and maybe 1-2 neutral to negative changes (defensive item changes, and less HP). Even J4 doesn't want to go cinderhulk (even after the W changes) just because it makes him slow and ineffective.
I'll look into Cinderhulk damage (against non-champions especially). Thanks for the feedback.
: This is a good chance for a little QoL on warmogs. Could the healing start from 2749.5 to catch those instances where the displayed value rounds to 2750 but doesn't give the passive?
Good idea (I think)! I'll give that a few minutes later this week hopefully.
: TY for the response. I'm glad you guys at least tested an AP version of GA. Must have been a little weird to see two of them side by side. >It would be cool if some support tanks could pick it up in games where they had the money to afford it. I agree entirely. You could probably rush it after an eyestone item as a support. A second item is something you can usually complete if your team isn't losing all lanes. >This is pretty much what the item is supposed to be good for. Okay. Are these items intended for use against Kayle and teemo?
> Are these items (Adaptive Helm) intended for use against Kayle and teemo? Especially the AP variants of Teemo, yes.
: My opinion on all the item changes: - Abyssal seems like a decent alternative for Spirit Visage, but it just doesn't offer enough HP. Make it more expensive if you want to but 350 HP should be the minimum. - Banshees just has a too low CD late game. 8 sec is crazy. Go up to 50-15 sec CD. Also more CDR added? What is this? Will every item in the future have 10% CDR? I can see the 10% making sense for casters but why do you always push everyone to 40% CDR in this game now? Not even a choice to get CDR becaus it is everywhere. - Cinderhulk/Sunfire. With the +0.5 MR per lvl these items will already get nerfed. Nerfing Sunfire then also by ~30% dmg when you finish it (~lvl 9) is huge. Change it from 7+2*lvl to 9+2*lvl at least. Still a nerf early and mid game with a tiny buff late game. - Deadmans: Why do you need to lose stacks when AAing but you don't get any effect? Is that rly needed? Is it that strong after the changes? You still lose stacks when you get CCed anyways (should have been an item to help Garen and Darius but in the end it helps bruisers and tanks with engage and mobility more because they can get to the enemy and slow them without losing stacks to CCs, so it actually doesn't do its job well. Fiora, Camille and others get more out of it than a Garen or Darius). - Droans: Looks way better now. - GA: Expensive for these stats but it will be a huge counter to every AD assassin. Armor + revive? It won't help assassins vs ADCs as much (ADCs have no CD on their AA and don't take the huge engage risk of assassins). Based on its cost efficiency it will probably be either OP against AD casters/assassins or too weak and not bought except for extreme situations (the second scenario should probably be the goal). - Randuins seems to be nerfed and it was already not one of the good armor items. Still offers great defensive stats, but the active is not rly good. Add a 15% AS slow to the active, now that it is only 2 sec. - Warmogs: Better, way better, but still useless in most cases. There is nearly nobody that can go it because HP alone is not a good defensive stat and you need to stack up Armor or the enemy will shred you. Getting one none Armor or MR item is normally not an option, especially now when BotRK is so OP (best early, mid and late game item, counters max HP but is also good against targets that don't build HP and has a slow steal and a ton of sustain built into it). So Warmogs, even when better, will probably stay useless. - Adaptive Helm: Strange and interesting, but I think ti will create problems. Swain, Singed, Kata, Karthus and many others will lose too much dmg through it, while it is a worse Abyssal normally. So it has a clear niche and is not an OPTION but either you won't get it or you have to get it based on the enemy and its strength. - Gargoyle Stoneplate: Looks good. Not sure about the strength but seems to be a very good idea to allow players to focus onto teamfighting tank stats without being an unkillable machine that kills the backline. Why not use Aegis of the Legion for its build path? Armor/MR. Would make its path smoother and gives Aegis a second upgrade option.
> Banshees just has a too low CD late game. 8 sec is crazy. Go up to 50-15 sec CD. Also more CDR added? What is this? Will every item in the future have 10% CDR? I can see the 10% making sense for casters but why do you always push everyone to 40% CDR in this game now? Not even a choice to get CDR becaus it is everywhere. It has strictly the same stats as Abyssal Scepter did, whose stats it is replacing. Speaking more toward CDR itemization for tanks, I didn't think it was right that Spirit Visage be the HP/MR item to go for when you wanted CDR (because items should feel good for their unique Passives/Actives), so all the HP/MR items now also have CDR to eliminate the need to choose between them for that _particular_ reason. Edits because I instinctively just clicked save after the last paragraphs: > Cinderhulk/Sunfire. With the +0.5 MR per lvl these items will already get nerfed. Nerfing Sunfire then also by ~30% dmg when you finish it (~lvl 9) is huge. Change it from 7+2lvl to 9+2lvl at least. Still a nerf early and mid game with a tiny buff late game. This is an intentional design choice aimed at making tanks have less damage threat overall, and especially less ambient, unnoticed threat. If it's too much a nerf, I'd rather compensate it elsewhere, but I think the item will still be a powerful option in this world. > Deadmans: Why do you need to lose stacks when AAing but you don't get any effect? Is that rly needed? Is it that strong after the changes? You lose stacks when AAing because we're trying to sharpen the effects of the items. In this case, DMP applies small, repeated damage that can add up over the course of fights, and this aims to make it specifically better at helping its users do what they bought it for, which is getting into range of targets. Tuning could possibly be off, but I do think the stack gain buff really does go understated here. > GA: Expensive for these stats but it will be a huge counter to every AD assassin. This is its intended use case, so that's good to hear. If it's only bought in extreme cases, that may be okay, as long as it's clear when those times are and it feels good (or at least reasonable) to pick up when those times occur. It's probably less good if it's a part of early core builds regularly. > Randuins seems to be nerfed and it was already not one of the good armor items. Most people tend to think this. I agree it does look underwhelming, though it's also cheaper than the other options, which I think is easy to undervalue. > So Warmogs, even when better, will probably stay useless. This is possible, but definitely don't want to run into a "League of Warmogs" game state post release either, so I'm trying to not oversolve on it for now. > Adaptive Helm: Strange and interesting, but I think ti will create problems. Swain, Singed, Kata, Karthus and many others will lose too much dmg through it, while it is a worse Abyssal normally. So it has a clear niche and is not an OPTION but either you won't get it or you have to get it based on the enemy and its strength. Making choices like these tend to be what make the item shop interesting, similar to how Randuin's should feel like an especially attractive pickup in games where they have a bunch of AAers. But there may be something I'm not considering on Adaptive Helm. > Why not use Aegis of the Legion for its build path? Armor/MR. Would make its path smoother and gives Aegis a second upgrade option. The original build path was actually Aegis+Cloth+Null, but this adds up to 55 Armor/MR, so when we reduced it to 40/40, we had to change the recipe. This has some good stuff to its build path as well, however. Since people that are used to going GA on tanks will instead be able to pick this up (since it shares its old build path). Also, several playtesters reported they stopped buying Locket and going for the selfish power of Stoneplate instead on a whim, and that they regretted it every time. So I didn't want this to compete heavily with Locket. Thanks for the feedback!
: Randuins nerfed? The lower HP and no crit dmg reduction and the slow, even when stronger, way shorter fror just 300 less gold? The item is already not that good. Abyssal, Banshees and GA look OP for certain champs or roles. Every AD champ will take GA earlier or later (kills every AD assassin) and Vlad and others will abuse the other 2. Just my first reaction. Need to look into it a bit more and do some math.
Though I think people are generally undervaluing the low cost of Randuin's, as well as it still being the strongest for pure defense, it does read really poorly and could probably use something. Edits: > Abyssal, Banshees and GA look OP for certain champs or roles. Every AD champ will take GA earlier or later (kills every AD assassin) and Vlad and others will abuse the other 2. I'm pretty okay with some of these items feeling like great additions to certain champions. It's a problem, however, if it is more that they are too good for an entire role/class. What makes you believe every AD will take GA?
: So, the special crit interactions like Yasuo/Jhin/Tryn are going to be an issue, but what about Gangplank? Because his Q can crit *and* ignore 40% armor, Randuin's has been the item to go with in order to deal with Crit-{{champion:41}} , especially considering the considerable health it gave. Have there been any talks of changing/removing GP's armor reduction??
Gangplank probably just shouldn't ignore Armor the way he does honestly. The Gangplank character on Live takes far fewer risks than he was originally intended to (I believe this is the case anyway) as players have learned to optimize barrel gameplay.
: Wow, you guys gutted Randuin's. Please don't do this to the item; it was hardly offensive, and now there's absolutely zero reason to take it over DMP. edit: since you guys have nerfed HP across the board, can you bump Warmog's HP back up to offset the difference
I can definitely buy that Randuin's is on the weak side relative to some of its counterparts (I literally almost commented "This item is probably undertuned" in the post when writing it), but using the term "gutted" seems over the top. Regardless, Randuin's seems worth looking into.
: Repertoir, about the guardian angel changes, are we going to see a AP version of that? Squishy AP champs could take the live version if they feel like they need to, but new version really doesn't offer them as much. Unless you are a hybrid champ like katarina of course. I hope this item doesn't work too well with her. Stoneplate looks cheap enough for support tanks to get. I'm sure someone like Leona would love it. The Helm looks good, but I think it might be a little too strong against spell spammers. I don't think you buffed cinderhulk enough. Needs something else. Soraka is going to love the changes to warmogs as she doesn't want to stack too much health to begin with and faster regen will help her a lot.
> Repertoir, about the guardian angel changes, are we going to see a AP version of that? We actually tested an AP version of the item as well (literally had an item named AD GA in the shop for testing at the same time as AP GA) because my gut told me that was fair as well. However, after a few weeks of testing, people almost always preferred to just have Zhonya's, and fighting against champions that had both AP GA and Zhonya's wasn't particularly fun (and it was very possible), and so I came to the conclusion it's not something that AP champions need, despite how appealing it sounds. > Stoneplate looks cheap enough for support tanks to get. I'm sure someone like Leona would love it. It would be cool if some support tanks could pick it up in games where they had the money to afford it. > The Helm looks good, but I think it might be a little too strong against spell spammers. This is pretty much what the item is supposed to be good for. Might to _too_ strong against them, as you've suggested, but it's also possible it's instead too strong against non spammers. > I don't think you buffed cinderhulk enough. Needs something else. Very possible. Will definitely be wanting to see how Cinderhulk users are performing upon release (especially relative to their pre-patch performance and their lane tank counterparts), if nothing else.
: So what do we build now against the champions who go full crit (Xayah, Yasuo, Jhin, Trynd) since you guys removed the only anti-crit item stat that I know of in the game? Really concerned about that change :c If there's another item please throw the knowledge on me but that seems pretty unreasonable. Edit: Sorry this came out so "RAWR HOW DARE YOU" just genuinely concerned and confused :x
Randuin's is possibly too weak in this version, though it still is the strongest of the HP/Armor items defensively, and has the lowest price point. As mentioned very briefly, there are some possible change to penetration coming that perhaps will help with this concern. One thing I didn't get into in the main post (but am happy to here) is that the removal of Crit Damage Reduction from Randuin's is intended to head off and/or defuse some power creep in the shop, especially since crit users are generally supposed to be successful at dealing damage to tanks. Some of these changes may result in outlier champions that have special crit interactions, and in that case, we'll need to address those case by case.
  Rioter Comments
: I did not have a chance to play him yet but from what I have seen his ferocity decays way to fast. Isnt in combat supposed to be 10 seconds ?
It's 4. That may be too short though.
: I feel like Rengar should also gain stacks on autos if it is against and enemy while in a bush regardless of if he jumped.
: Is another stack up to 6 stacks including the one from Kha? or just a bonus stack. because it would be rather lackluster if he was already 5 stacks from killing the entire enemy team and got nothing.
: Hello high gold sub 50% win rate former adc main repertoir. Would you like to elaborate why rengar is so limited and clunky now? Only able to use one spell mid air, ferocity decay after 4 seconds, and not being able to pick who you want to hunt and get the free bonus crit damage on hmm. Honestly if you just let us pick who we want to hunt and let our ult generate ferocity while still invis i'd say rengar is fine as an assassin. But you don't want rengar to be an assassin clearly. You want him to just be some sort of pseudo-bruiser champion that kills you slow enough to correspond with your low iq + low apm reaction time so you can get back in plat.
He should be able to cast any number of spells midair from what I've tested. Can cast Q during leap, can cast E during leap, can cast W during leap. Q cast time is around .35 seconds, and E cast time is around .25 seconds, while the leap only lasts ~.25 seconds, so I guess it makes sense that he can't cast both during a leap because the leap just doesn't last that long.
: umm @riot what was the design ideas influences to give such a strong q? i guess ill have to see it in game but with the ferocity stacks and full ad it did plenty of dmg, i dont see how the range on an ability like that could become part of his balance?
Rengar's Q needs to be really strong damage. It's his primary damage ability, and the Q on Live does a ton of damage as well. Having it be only moderate damage would leave a massive hole in his damage output.
: Hi Reertoir! It says that rengar loses all ferocity if he is out of combat. But it also says that using an ability even if it doesn't do damage will give him one stack. Does this mean using an ability while out of combat gives +1 stacks or +0 stacks? EDIT: Another thing. I feel like it might feel super clunky trying to jump to the closest person if there are a bunch of people near by who are constantly moving around, thus changing who's closest. How does his ult handle constant target changing? Thanks.
It technically gives 1 stack that you will lose immediately if you aren't in combat. It's not stated in the tooltip, but your Ferocity won't decay while E is in the air, so you can throw an E from out of combat and not have to worry about it not generating Ferocity before you enter combat.
: Hello Repertoir I have been a Rengar since S3 and tbh I was expecting the rework to be shit, but I was WRONG, I have to thank you... 1 thing tho that is bugging me and all the rengar mains back at /r/rengarmains is the sound effects. I dont want to disrepect whoever worked on them but they are attrocious. And I would guess its an easy fix, I would suggest to get the live sounds for the passive/w/e and for the Q keep the new sound that plays before he lunges and when he lunges replace that part with the live Q's sound( the flesh thrusting sound). But this is just my suggestion, I am sure most rengar mains agree with me bcuz they are going crazy back there. As of kit balancing I still dont have anything for u has he is disabled, but numbers aside the kit looks really cool. 2 things tho: I have already saw you reply to a comment suggesting to allow him .25s to jump after exiting stealth, this would be amazing else he becomes clunky toplane. The other thing is since we cant 1shot anymore, because we always start with 0 ferocity, then the E mid air shouldnt have a cast time, or atleast reduce it, right now is just clunky. Other than that great Kit Have a nice day you legend.
Q's hit effects are actually missing entirely on PBE. They will be fixed tomorrow. We'll be looking into making sure everything sounds good by the time the PBE cycle is over, even if we have to do some tweaks and what-not.
: So I hate the new ferocity system. The way you have it now, it doesn't allow you to stack up ferocity before a fight. You tried to compensate by letting us get a free ferocity when jumping into combat. Here is my problem with that. If you walk into a bush and someone is there, you are out of luck now. Or if you use an ability, like E, before you jump you lose your 1st stack of ferocity because of not jumping from out of combat. Now you can only get 3 during the fight. You then have to wait on your Q to come off of CD to do anything. So here is my idea. Remove the stack from jumping from out of combat. Let him get two stacks of ferocity off of his Q. He should get one off of his sweep no matter if it misses or lands. He should then get another from landing his pierce part of his Q. This will allow you to get 2 stacks from your Q, hit your bola and W and get 4 stacks for an empowered ability. It would make him feel a lot more smooth like we are used to with him full ferocity. Just my thought on it.
Thanks for the input. Might tweak the way he gains 1 Ferocity by entering combat.
: His new Q animation needs to be faster it feels kinda sloppy now. I know that it was made to slow his burst combo down but it somehow feels just kinda off....
Thanks for the feedback. We're discussing some stuff about Q right now internally.
: played him in a bot match two bits of feed back: compared to his old Q the visuals/audio of the new Q feels a bit "wimpy" , old Q was a slam down y'know very predatory , new Q has a lot more finesse to it and feels a bit off. Also, is there any way you could add into the tooltip for bonetooth necklace for how much bonus AD it's actually giving? it's a little hard to appreciate right now.
Rengar has some sound issues going on in both his Q and R unfortunately. I believe they're fixed in tomorrow's build. For the Q specifically, the hit sound is not playing at all, which I think is definitely contributing to satisfaction issues. I'll continue to look at how people feel about it when the sounds are properly working.
: Hi RiotRepertoir, I have 2 questions, first of all, if it is hard to understand what I wrote I'm sorry, English is not my native language. 1) Are you going to remove the cast time (0.125s) of the bola mid air ? Now that he can't deal a sh*t ton of damage mid air I think it would appropriate to remove the cast time mid air ^^ In all seriousness, the cast time is very very clunky, is it normal that your bola goes over your target's head just because he's walking toward you ? It happened to me so many times, even on the scuttle crab :-( To avoid that you have to cast the bola in the opposite direction of where you're facing (= behind you), or you can also cast it before or after landing but it just feel so wrong and clunky to I believe a lot of rengar mains out there including me. I saw a post where you said that this option was a possibility, but to me it is like you are saying "Ahh, it's not a big deal, it's just a 0.125s cast time lol" but for us it's a very BIG deal, this cast time even made some famous rengar mains (Dekar!!) leaving him to dust, for way less clunky champion (Riven) :-( I would appreciate if you could think about it a bit more and maybe try to implement it as a test maybe ? 2) Now you said that Rengar won't get the short end of the stick anymore in the quest of Rengar/Kha'Zix, but you also said that he is only rewarded by .. 1 stack. So if I already have 5 stacks of bonetooth, the reward will give me nothing ? I mean a 4th evolution is huge, when you tell us that he only get a stack I feel like Rengar still get the short end of the stick in the end. Thank you for reading and I'm sorry if I sounded too aggressive ^^ So now my opinion about the rework : Overall I'm very happy with this rework, the ultimate might last too long for a not so rewarding jump (1crit) including the fact that Rengar is an assassin and therefore extremely squishy so he might need some base stats buff or armor/mr on the ultimate like Nasus or even a mini fear like Urgot's ultimate :D. W doesn't seem to heal enough vs monsters and might be too strong vs burst, but I couldn't test it out so I'm not sure. And well I'm wondering if he's still gonna be a decent toplaner :)
Regarding Bola. It still has the cast time, but it's been rescripted so that it always comes from him and not some random point behind him. If you put your mouse where you want your bola to go, it should cast from your body to that point. Regarding Rengar vs. Kha'Zix, each stack is worth more than the last, and the Head of Kha'Zix gives you a hidden 6th stack, resulting in 21 Flat AD and 42% Bonus AD.
: Removing the being able to jump for a little bit out of stealth (step out of brush for .2 secs still can jump) really hurt the smoothness of his brush plays especially in top lane. ex, he cant jump to red side blue from the brush near river.
: Hi repertoir One question: Can u give context on why rengar can only jump on the nearest while ulted the rework itself looks cool but i dont like that change to his ultimate Thanks.
To make the hunt a two-way experience between Rengar and his opponents. It's possible he should be able to leap to anyone but only crit the Hunted guy.
: Do his Empowered abilities still have no cooldown?
: Rengar cannot jump over walls anymore, is this intented or a bug? I hope its a bug ):
Unintended. I'll check that out.
: umm @riot what was the design ideas influences to give such a strong q? i guess ill have to see it in game but with the ferocity stacks and full ad it did plenty of dmg, i dont see how the range on an ability like that could become part of his balance?
Q (especially empowered Q) needs to do a lot of damage so that there's a meaningful decision/tradeoff between using that and the empowered W or E, at least that was the thinking :)
: lol uh there is a huuuuge rengar bug out rn. press ctrl 1 and it does infinitie healing and dmg
Yeah, we had an artist working on the visual effects and I forgot to disable that. Probably going to have to disable until tomorrow. Really sorry about that, everyone.
  Rioter Comments
  Rioter Comments
: Taric Heal Nerf Context?
Hi. The idea behind the nerf to the Passive > Q interaction was to generally reduce some of the uptime in the kit, which this interaction is the primary driver of. That said, I've ended up pulling the change after all. I wasn't confident enough in it to keep it, and it would be largely feel-impacting.
: Nearsight and the QSS change - can you promote it to a formal CC type?
Its implementation includes Nearsight. It should remove those effects, though I imagine Graves' just reapplies because it's in a zone.
: What about capping how many Voidlings that can spawn from the different Criteria, so like 3 from Monster camps, 5 from epic monsters and then unlimited for lane minions and champions (even tho the most i've gotten was 6). And then not make this "No spawning off large monsters" :'(
: Another day of PBE updates for Malz and they still only focus on his Jungling. Come on Riot Malz is a MID LANER, why not work on his now crappy midlane instead of solely focusing on his Jungling.
His W cast range and spawn range was increased specifically to improve non jungle cases.
: Voidlings gain 100% Movement Speed **AND IGNORE UNIT COLLSION** when chasing enemies affected by Nether Grasp or Malefic Visions. Please
Voidlings already ignore unit collision I believe.
: Have you considered allowing Quick Cast with Indicators to work with Noxious Blast? I don't understand why that ability should be always quick cast. So few spells don't let you choose how to cast them, and this one doesn't have anything I can see to justify this special case.
I disabled auto smart cast with Noxious Blast today. Should be in this build and address this concern.
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