: This whole thing concerns me to be honest. While I understand the need to tone down his early game (I play quite a lot of Lee, I understand it!) I think the AS buff on his passive being his scaling factor into late game is just going to be negligible. When team fights begin later in the game, you don't get the chance to take advantage of your passive very often honestly. You generally start out by landing a Q and following it in, ward or minion hopping behind a target, and ulting them back into your team for a successful initiation. You've now used 3 of your 4 abilities and have not been able to take advantage of your passive in any way. Now perhaps after this you can land an auto or two, assuming you aren't CC chained by the opposing team collapsing on you after you kick someone out of their team, and then you use your Tempest, which you'll generally want to follow up with Cripple almost immediately to reduce the incoming damage with the AS slow. You don't really get the chance to use your passive in between this, so you generally only get to use the second of the two passive procs here. So you've used every ability, you're probably close to out of energy, and you've used 2 of your potential 7 passives in this fight. I think the issue is that you're trying to take a burst caster and turn him into a sustained damage champion, which is the exact opposite of what he is right now. * A Lee Sin using AD reds/quints and offensive masteries has 149.52 AD at level 18, or 150 with rounding. Flat Q damage, with no items involved, is going to be ~460 without taking the percent damage increase into account. This is going to be around a ~60 damage increase without taking items into account at all. A net buff to his Q overall, although it will definitely be weaker early game. I think this one looks okay as long as it doesn't get any other massive changes (cooldown increase, other damage nerfs, etc). * Safeguard change is quite painful but at least understandable. Making him trade something for jumping to wards is okay, makes sense. The thing that needs to be taken into account when comparing him to champions like Jax or Katarina is that neither of them use any form of skillshot for their damage and Katarina has no costs at all and gains a damage reduction buff for using hers. * Tempest is the change that bothers me the most. While it may be a bit odd, I used Lee Sin as a counter to armor stacking champions such as Malphite purely based on the fact that Tempest did magic damage instead of physical. I understand the change to physical damage, it makes sense. It was hard for the opponent to read and it could be confusing when you built armor in lane to counter that guy building AD...and then got wrecked anyways. However, I think the damage nerfs on top of this change might be a bit too much; keep in mind that the damage will now already be reduced by armor, making it A) easier to counter Lee Sin in lane and B) already reduce Tempest's damage due to the availability of great armor items (Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, Thornmail [situational], Ninja Tabi) before it sees the damage nerfs as well. It also completely destroys building AD on Lee Sin; instead of going Brutalizer into LW ala Zed/Talon and playing him as any form of assassin (I've even done this in the jungle after Lizard Elder when I get massively ahead) it now pretty much pigeonholes him into the generic bruiser build of Armor item > MR item > some random damage item (Hydra, BoRK, Triforce) and then call it a day and stack some health. * The ultimate change greatly concerns me since I tend to play a lot of Lee Sin top to counter champions like Jax and Wukong, or tanks like Mundo/Shyvana/Malphite in some cases. His ultimate in 1v1 situations is going to be about as useful as Skarner using his ultimate in a 1v1. As in, you move them a little bit. The damage has absolutely been shattered in anything but the most perfect use into the middle of the enemy team which sort of defeats the purpose of a movement displacing ability. Just my thoughts, character limit D:
I think the most significant problem we have here is that the Flurry Attack Speed buff is really hard to understand on paper, making the changes as a whole feel like we are sapping the life from Lee. Let’s approach the problem numerically first: Assume Lee Sin builds the most common bruiser/assassin build (which is AD/Armor Pen/tankiness etc. – items which support a pattern of quickly accessing the backline and surviving for a bit once there) in a game and he hits lv16. The PBE Lee Sin will have is 100%(his base AS)+45%(3% per level and he leveled up 15 times) +100%(new flurry)=245%(of original AS). Meanwhile, the Live Flurry values will leave Lee with 100%+45%+40%=185% of original AS. The difference here results in a 32.4% sustain damage increase from basic attacks if Lee can manage his passive in an ideal way. With so much more sustain damage, Lee Sin provides a higher damage threat to enemies after the first few seconds, without having to burst them as hard in the first one or two. It also means a 32.4% improved basic attack frame – landing auto attacks in between spells will be more feasible and more rewarding. I think your simulation of Lee Sin in a late game team fight is based on the fact that the Live version of Lee Sin is really weak at that point. Considering all the tools he has, why is that, and how does it happen? In a world where Lee Sin can deal meaningful sustained damage at all points in the game, you no longer are relegated to just looking for an ideal initiation and then having 80% of your job done. He can still have that meaningful initiation power, but the power it brings becomes largely about positioning, and less about the burst. After this point, he can use his increased sustain damage to remain a legitimate threat to the enemy team. Dragon’s Rage specifically is a really cool spell that provides a ton of fun gameplay, but as mentioned above, we really want to separate its use as utility versus damage. The current proposed Dragon’s Rage does approximately 50/55/60% damage compared to the Live version on cast, but it is increased by 50% for each enemy the target collides with. Under this paradigm, if you manage to kick your target into two enemy champions, it’s about same damage. If you manage to kick your target through his whole team, however, you will get a very noticeable damage reward (750 + 3.0 Total AD), resulting in massive damage to the original target. It’s definitely cool to Insec kick a high-profile enemy into your team, but the cool thing about that play specifically really isn't the damage you dealt; it’s the displacement utility you brought to your team. And while that play is cool, it has come to overshadow other uses of the ability in team fights. We want to reward players for thinking about the direction in which they kick their target. As far as the 1v1 case is concerned, Dragon’s Rage will deal 100ish less damage. This is absolutely significant, but the increased sustained threat from Flurry should be enough to compensate for that after the first few seconds.
  Rioter Comments


Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion