: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
UPDATE! For tomorrow: Good news and bad news. Bad news first: * Increasing the wall cooldown CD by 10 at all ranks Okay but now the good news: * Wall cooldown now scales with CDR. So rank 1 CD is now 160. With just 10% CDR, that's already 144, lower than the old rank 1. With 40% CDR that's 96s (36s at max rank). Hopefully this helps the wall CD scale more favorably with game time and functions more like you'd expect it to. Also, adding a very experimental change to see if we can improve the E experience for enemies: * Enemies who see Talon vault over a wall get a quick flash of walls near Talon that are on cooldown.
: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
No major updates for today, but a few usability changes: * E tooltip now includes that the spell has a max range * Some minor fixes to make small E jumps always go at least some distance (~350 units). * moved the cooldown indicator color change to start in the last 30 seconds of the cooldown (instead of the last 10). Still monitoring overall assassination effectiveness (ability to access target / up front burst), especially in the late game. I know there are concerns over this, and I'm definitely not sure it's in the spot it should be in, so I'll be keeping a close eye on this.
: I like the rework thematically...but Talon in game feels really weak. **_Anything at all about the new E. Is it fun? Difficult to use? Does it suit Talon? Bugs?_** It's fun, like really fun and I believe it does suit Talon but the CD on it to jump over the same terrain is simply too long. Riot wanted him to be a roamer but Talon is basically a really fast one time roamer and then mediocre for the next 2 minutes. My other concern is that it just doesn't do anything else, no damage, no other utility (like extra movement speed) and it's hard to tell where I would land. **_With his new but different set of mobility tools, do you feel able to get on your desired target?_** No, it's actually much harder to get to my intended target because Q's range is simply too low and E is extremely dependent on my target's position. If the target is not close to a wall then it's almost impossible unless I pop my ultimate for speed boost (which is not ideal). It would be nice if Talon could receive a longer dash or a mechanic similar to Ekko's E. **_With higher potential damage but lower up front damage, do you still feel empowered to kill your target enemies?_** Sadly, this is also a no. The damage on Talon is so delayed that by the time the full "potential" damage comes to play the target has been peeled for, dashed away or flashed away. There's counterplay but too much counterplay? Also, it doesn't fit Talon's identity. Talon's identity IS up front damage let the Zed's of the world have the identity of potential damage. **_When in the game do you feel powerful / weak (early / mid / late) and in which circumstances (enemy has all/no squishies, I was able to roam / I was pushed in, etc.)?_** Early: Feels horrendously weak. Q is my only dodge spell but also the best trading spell and W's delay feels bad in general. Mid: Definitely Talon's strongest point still but weaker than what it is on live. Talon can still pick people off just not as reliably which also limits his snowball potential. Late: Useless, yes I have damage but no reliable way to get the damage off (Q range too short, there's too much damage on the other side for me to kill, even if I do get in the teamfight I'm still a kamikaze suicide bomb but with even weaker AOE and more delayed burst). Rate: 4/10 Theme? Awesome. Execution? Not so awesome but I'm sure Riot will figure things out. **Update** This is an updated opinion I have after playing some more games and learning more of Talon's ins and outs post rework. I'll give my opinion on each ability and then give an overall opinion of the rework. **Passive**: This is what Talon plays around now. A large chunk of damage comes from this passive alone due to its high ratio (200% bonus ad scaling). This is also the reason Talon can out damage MELEE champions in laning phase. Since Talon needs to play around a 3 mark + 1 AA hit activation, his inherent burst is definitely slower (not by a huge margin) which is exactly what Riot was going for. **Q**: I still think this ability needs to have its range increased and/or be turned into a blink. Other than that, this ability definitely has a lot of damage tied into it and because of its low cd, Talon has some room for outplay with this ability. **W**: Has more damage than the current W which makes the Tiamat/Hydra buy not as core as before. I actually have really fallen in love with his ability because of its wave clear meaning I don't HAVE to buy Tiamat/Hydra just to push wave against the likes of Syndra, Viktor, Anivia, etc. Delay still kinda sucks but again Riot wanted Talon to have more of a delayed burst so it's okay (it'd be nice to see a slightly shorter delay though). **E**: The wall cd scaling off cdr is a big improvement and increases its usability however, this ability is still really lacking. If E were to get a small decaying movement speed boost I think this ability would be awesome. Other things to add, it would be great if Talon could Q mid-jump or towards the end of his jump to make the EQ interaction smoother. I also don't think R should be canceled by E (I am aware Talon could E and cast R mid jump which is nice) **R**: Tooltip is kind of confusing. Some people say that each individual blade does damage and others say its like the live version where R only hits twice. It'd be great if there was more clarity in the description. HIs R is fine though in my opinion. **Overall**: Talon has a ton of damage but still needs some bit more utility to stay sticky on his target. Also, this rework has definitely made me think more about what summoners to take and made me change my build (although the build isn't too drastically different). Basically, {{item:3142}} {{item:3158}} {{item:3071}} Edge of Night (new assassin item) {{item:3147}} {{item:3156}}/{{item:3026}}/{{item:3031}} I've also been liking {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:6}} more than {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:14}} Forcing me to change builds according to situations is a big plus for me for any champion especially if its my favorite champion. **Rework Score**: 7/10 **Pros** 1. Abilities synergies well with one another and does give Talon a unique feel 2. His damage is most definitely still there 3. Builds are not always the same, you actually have to adjust to the situation 4. Melee Laning matchups are better for Talon (going against ranged is horrible though). Honestly, his early damage is so high that I think Talon Bruiser top will be a viable thing but I need to test it out some more. 5. More slippery because of E (assuming you don't have walls on CD) 6. A lot of flanking options because of E **Cons** 1. E is still limiting and doesn't provide much to the table other than a one time fast roaming experience (during laning phase). 2. Hard to reach and stay on his target if a fight is in an open area. This is the reason why i opted for {{summoner:6}} than {{summoner:14}}. {{summoner:6}} has secured a lot of kills for me as well as took me out of a lot of bad situations and its short cd makes it a good pick. 3. If walls are on cd Talon is really limited in what he could do. Flanking options, escape options, engage options, traveling options all get limited all at once as soon as Talon uses a wall. 4. Ranged matchups are a nightmare to deal with (Lux, ZIggs, Morgana, Xerath, Syndra, Viktor are horrible) 5. Q is your gap closer and highest damaging ability all in one which actually sucks 6. 335 ms makes me sad
Responding here since there's a couple posts in this sort of general direction. It certainly seems that Talon is weak, so I suspect that's contributing to a lot of these observations. In the next build, Talon will be buffed substantially (+5 AD, +5 HP/lvl, +0.2AD ratio on passive) to increase his baseline effectiveness and allow him to access some of his newer options more reliably. That said, I know there could be more to it. I really appreciate your (and everybody's) attention to those focus points. Things we have in out pocket in case target selection is, in fact, as bad as it seems: Q dash range up, E landing distance over wall up, R speed up. I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on these, as I know there's a huge learning curve on using E to position before a team fight, but I can imagine landing on any of those changes. If up front damage turns out to be the problem, the up front part to pretty much any of his abilities has some room for additional power. I'd like to see what happens with the current buffs and more time for people to learn the ins-and-outs of E before going any further. Thanks to everyone sharing their reactions like these! And keep it coming if things don't feel any different after a few games.
: And you made mine man, after so many things I was unsure about this rework truly hits every possible spot. If you don't mind me ask, how is he currently performing in playtests and how does his balancing look? Is he (likely) too strong, or too weak, or spot on?
Likely too weak! Got some buffs in for the next build that we're testing, mostly base stats.
: I haven't played around with Talon much on live so I can't give much feedback for comparison but I will answer two of the questions asked until I've played around with him a bit more: _**Anything at all about the new E. Is it fun? Difficult to use? Does it suit Talon? Bugs?**_ Talon's new E is definitely fun and allows him to roam quicker, easier and a lot more. His new E allows him to bypass wards if used over the right parts of terrain and while having correct knowledge of where wards are placed. With the new E his gank potential (from roaming, not jungling) is actually very high and threatening if the enemy isn't prepared. I definitely like this ability for Talon, I think it suits him a lot and is very easy to use. I have not found any bugs as of yet but it does feel a bit clunky when jumping over alive turrets - it still works as intended, just doesn't feel as smooth as other jumps.. It may have something to do with the turret being so tall? I'm not really sure. _**With his new but different set of mobility tools, do you feel able to get on your desired target?**_ Getting onto a target is a bit difficult due to the low range of his Q (even when using at max range), not to mention that you no longer appear behind a target nor do you slow the target in any way (you will always need your W for that - ideally landing it both on the way out and back in). Skirmishing pre-6 against a ranged opponent is difficult but not impossible, you still do enough damage to equally trade if done correctly. However, when roaming as Talon, if you can find an enemy close to terrain it's definitely easy to stick onto them from there. I find in lane it is a bit harder to stick to a target, but out of lane it's a lot easier due to his new E.
Thanks, this is really helpful!
: I don't know about damage,but for the other things he seems ok. Just 2 small things 1) The slow now last 1s down from 2s so maybe it could be stronger. i know it's already stronger than live but 2s at 40% = 1s at 80%,also because now only the second hit of the blades applies the slow 2) Range of leap seems too short. He's not blinking anymore so now the movement is slower,he can be hit during the process and he can be stopped (poppy,veigar). This is OK,but also reducing the range is not fair 3) E is nice to roam but big walls can't be passed..i mean,it would be nice to be ablie to use it from tribush to gank bot lane (blu side).
1) Totally an option. If Talon is on the weaker side, but not in the damage department or especially when behind, this is a good place to add power. 2) This is intended, but admittedly it might be a bit short. The goal is that Talon has to use his E to get in position for his Q. He has better flanking tools than practically anybody else, so he should depend on them to get to his target. 3) Yeahhhh I feel you on this one. At the end of the day, this was just a line we discovered we couldn't cross. There's a certain length of terrain that, if crossable, made nearly impossible to play against.
: Don't you think you should put a mana cost on his E to make his decision making on pathing more meaningful?
The hook for Talon was supposed to be nearly unrestricted map mobility, so we wanted to start with it pushed as far as possible! Keeping the mana cost addition in the pocket in case he becomes too much of a snowball champion. It's definitely an option
: Alright so you guys wanted feedback, here's a Talon main since season 2 talking. I'll go over each and every one of his spells now, so this could take a long time. Passive: This new passive is quite awesome. Both in terms of visuals and gameplay, it's a lot more interactive than the old passive. The fact that it requires 3 stacks means you have to commit AND you have to hit both ways of your Rake to make this passive happen. In other words Talon's lane interaction has been increased and he feels a lot more fun to play, and a lot more rewarding for appropriate risks. Solid work here guys, definitely. I do want to mention that the current bleed value seems too high, obviously these values aren't final so there's room for balancing there should it be necessary but I'd say you should keep an eye on this. Q, Noxian Diplomacy: This Q is now finally a cool spell rather than "just that auto reset move" that half of the bruisers have. It allows Talon to gapclose a little, will definitely be interesting in melee matchups to try this out together with that passive to see just how hard you can go. The extra damage when used in close range is interesting, it feels like a ton of straight up damage though so maybe that value needs slight toning down too. It does reward him gapclosing with his E somehow, so that's pretty cool, but maybe a 30% increase would be more fair. The leap into autoattack feels smooth (especially considering the PBE 300 ping), so this is a part I really like. W, Rake: Now onto Talon's most awesome current ability, Rake. Rake in lane is your waveclear and laning tool overall. I'm glad to see this part was kept, it still feels like the old Rake in terms of usefulness throughout the game, however it's more dodgeable and has more tradeoffs. This way it's more powerful and fun to use, will also be interesting to trade poke back and forth a bit more with someone like a Zed, as you can now miss it or get only the first hit. I like the higher early damage that transitions into a slightly less upfront burst lategame, and the delay makes this even better and more fair. The less width is also an important feature to keep in mind, but it's still good for clearing minions which is awesome. E, Assassin's Path: This is the wet dream of any wannebe freerunner out there (including myself) so I'll be able to freerun in LoL now too. On a more serious note, this is amazing. The low CD, the low mana cost, it simply feels like Talon is so mobile but at the same time he pays for it with a long cooldown (on the wall itself) and it's somewhat predictable, not as instant as his current E. Good counterplay, good gameplay, fair tradeoffs, and some serious uniqueness here. I cannot even begin to describe how amazing this part of the rework is. There were some rumours Talon would be able to hop over walls, this version though gives you truly nothing more or less, it makes you mobile but leaves you vulnerable in for example the middle of a lane. This again, is a fair tradeoff, something I'm a big fan off. R, Shadow Assault: Finally it's less of an AoE bomb and more off an outplay tool. The damage output is slightly reduced, which is fair, but the higher movement speed lategame and the guaranteed stealth are great tools to set up more outplays with. The ability is the least changed though, which I'm a fan of, but the main issues have been adressed which is good enough. Extra stuff to add: The visuals are simply amazing, Talon feels even more like that murderer assassin who has some nifty tools while he's at the job. Rake and Shadow Assault look amazing now, special mention to the new Shadow Assault's blade turning speed up animation, as it gives both players clarity and spreads awesomeness :D So to conclude: I was a bit scared in the beginning for Talon's rework, but I was also hyped. You've nailed him exactly the way I wanted. He has more outplay potential, the enemy also has more outplay potential against him, he brings a lot more to the table but requires some more skill as well. He looks even more amazing now, and he's unique in the most epic way possible. So yeah I just had to get all this excitement of my chest.....and I just had to applaud you for a rework well done. Now I'm off, I'ma take the Assassin's path outta here and Rake some more foes :D
: Could you be a little more specific? Is it all abilities? Certain parts? Any relevant screenshots would also be helpful.
Phoenix did the sick new VFX for Talon btw!
: It may have just been me, but when I tried to vault over the shopkeeper before the 00:15 second gate went down. I was disconnected from the game. Only tried once, but felt this was worth mentioning. Anyway, great job with the reworks, Riot. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Actually, we've been squashing bugs similar to this one :X Thanks for the report, will investigate
: My main question is about Talon's (E), if he is able to climb over any obstacle, will he be able to jump Man-made structures such as Taliyah's wall Will Azir's Wall of soldiers still slam him backwards if he tries?
Yes! And... yes! He can start a jump over Azir wall, but I recommend that you do not try this at home! Also there are some Taliyah wall interaction bugs, but I'll fix those soon :P
: Actual Leaked Talon Footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbOTZ5LCPmk
: I thought there was a big thing you guys said that judging from playtesters, new Talon is under-performing?
Yeah, and he might need more power overall. That said, the Q-auto-reset _may_ not be the healthiest place for power, and it might be best to relax that a bit and add even more elsewhere. We'll see how things develop.
: Hi, it seems that Talon's Q might have a bug. It lets Talon auto attack immediately after Q damage has been dealt. As in, Talon can auto, q and auto again with no delay in between any of those action. This seems weird to me, is this a bug or intended? Another bug, for particularly large sections of walls, Talon's e will only mark about half of it when he uses e over that section. Again, bug or intended?
Both intended. The auto reset on Q might be a little much, might have to add a bit of delay there.
: How many units of terrain does talon E puts on cooldown? I imagine is not a small radius otherwise I can imagine Talon jumping in and out of dragon/baron pit just for the lulz. Any insights on Talon's new passive? I'm really excited for that one.
Radius is ~1200 units in either direction, on both the side of the wall he jumps from and the side of the wall he lands on. So yeah, it's pretty big! But he can still get 2 jumps on Baron/Dragon pit, and more if he's creative! Passive: Spells stacks Wound on enemy champions / epic monsters, max 3. Basic attacking a champion with 3 stacks of wound causes them to bleed for a million damage over 2 seconds.
: Please post the LB Info.
20thcenturyfaux's got you! http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/x4tgmm0s-assassins-leblanc-feedback-thread
: Can you give a bit more insight for how his E works? I believe a lot of people are interested in learning about this.
TLDR; Like Yasuo E, but for terrain. E can now jump over terrain/turrets/player created terrain. Has a low, 2 second cooldown, but puts a section of the terrain itself on a LOOOONG cooldown. It has a max range, but it's pretty long (~800 or so)
: Stashu is yelling this over and over next to us.
HEY HEY now don't blow me up like that. I got excited.
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