: Every ADC is losing 4 base AD but {{champion:67}} is losing 5 and still only receiving 0.7 extra a level. Why? Tristana Base AD lowered from 65 to 61 Twitch Base AD lowered from 63 to 59 Varus Base AD lowered from 63 to 59 Vayne **Base AD lowered from 64 to 59** - 5 ??? Xayah Base AD lowered from 64 to 60
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=kF5ABez8,comment-id=0029,timestamp=2018-05-17T17:09:05.887+0000) > > Every ADC is losing 4 base AD but {{champion:67}} is losing 5 and still only receiving 0.7 extra a level. > > Why? > > > Tristana > Base AD lowered from 65 to 61 > > Twitch > Base AD lowered from 63 to 59 > > > Varus > Base AD lowered from 63 to 59 > > > Vayne > **Base AD lowered from 64 to 59** - 5 ??? > > > Xayah > Base AD lowered from 64 to 60 Fixed for next deploy, good catch.
: I think it treats these abilities like an auto where it rolls for a critical strike, but the damage isn't changed because there's no crit modifier for abilities. However with the new {{item:3031}} if the ability "critically strikes" it does a conqueror conversion on the whole attack. And just as a clarification, these "crits" don't do extra premitigation damage, but the conversion does because of the nature of true damage.
I think that's very likely the cause, but digging in now. Thanks for the report. Fun times with pushing to PBE a couple weeks earlier than usual {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: Marksman and AD Itemization Changes coming to PBE shortly
Just noting here (for those of you using the red tracker) that I added a section to the main post with details of changes from the last day or so, plus some that'll be on PBE tomorrow.
: Essence Reaver Bug
Will be fixed on next deploy.
: Rengar does not proc stormrazor out of leap
Should be fixed tomorrow, along with a pile of other similar bugs (Garen Q, etc).
: Stormrazor particles
VFX should be on PBE tomorrow, and yes, there's some thunderstorm theming there.
: Does the IE passive stack with Yasuo's passive?
Yes. He's still 100% crit on IE + Phantom Dancer.
: Hey Axes can I ask for the thinking behind IE's double crit passive now, doesn't that sorta make everyone like Yasuo and can I hear the thinking behind the LW revert
Re: Last Whisper - I tried to get that into the context at the top of this post, but basically - having no multipliers means you have to get extremely far ahead to retain any influence over the game, which then means we balance around those champions having to get extremely far ahead. That manifests both in some champions that ought to be able to have more average power curves over game time being biased towards early game, and champions that are supposed to be strong early game end up being even more oppressive (or else become useless).
: When are we getting information about the new Keystone you guys were discussing?
I don't know exactly when it'll hit PBE, but the effect as of right now is: **Hail of Blades** Domination Keystone Gain 50-100% Attack Speed for the first 3 attacks made against enemy champions. No more than 1.5s can elapse between attacks or this effect will end. Hail of Blades allows you to temporarily exceed the attack speed limit.
  Rioter Comments
: "Spellthief's Edge - No longer gives base mana regen" You only get that 25% after upgrade. Walking into lane as Sona, or Lulu, or Nami. No extra regen means you get a handful of casts to last you until you get 500 gold to upgrade. Most of your money comes from being able to poke. So unless you trade only autos you're going to run oom real fast. And god forbid you need to heal, or shield. I don't want to wait 30+ seconds in lane just to be able to use Sona's tiny heal once.
To update on this - we're reverting Spellthief's and Frostfang changes.
: Hey axes can I ask if you took into account Viktor's Hexcore giving him mana per level per upgrade when rebalancing him and are you also handling Ryze or would that be rolled within repertoir's changes to him
I'm not handling Ryze, and pre-ship tinkering with Hexcore didn't feel warranted but he's on the list to watch (and we're still playtesting things - this might change before ship).
  Rioter Comments
: Duskblade of Draktharr and Nightfall Question
> Why was is the application of Nightfall a passive and not an active? It has a decent Cooldown so you cant really use your auto attacks on enemy champions that arent your main objetive. Couple reasons. 1. If it's an active, it's good on everyone. The primary reason most Marksmen can't use it well (a couple definitely can, but most can't) is that they just waste the passive. If it was an active, they'd just use it as a finisher once they got you low. This is pretty much the DFG problem - anyone can use it to become an assassin. 2. If it's an active, it's extremely reliable. You almost never use it except in the ideal situation. If it were an active, you'd lose most of the cases where you mess it up (or where your target messes it up for you with a well-timed jump or shield), and in exchange you'd get a bunch of cases where you forget to cast it (most players don't use active items). > Also I was wondering why was it decided to throw a bit of ms on it? kinda rare to see on an AD item. There aren't that many even moderately attractive non-damage stats available to put on an item like this, unfortunately. Movement speed lets us allocate some of its gold budget to something other than making champs die faster - not much of its gold budget, but some.
: Titanic hydra on Gp
I fixed this yesterday, should hit PBE with the next deploy, it'll be spraying the cone from the target of his Parrrley instead.
: When i was testing titanic hydra on gangplank i discovered that the AOE splash came not from the attack itself but it comes from the champion. When i would Parrrley the AOE damage would often not even reach the target, i could even fire my pistol and turn around in order to splash minions not even near my Parrrley shot. I'm not sure if riot intends to keep it this way but it is really wonky to try to land its splash damage with Parrrley.
I fixed that for Gangplank specifically. Cone will shoot out of his Parrrley target starting the next time the PBE updates.
: quick question: what exactly does the 25% base attack damage effect, does it only effect sheen or does it also effect auto attacks and ability scaling? Also does it not effect abilities that only scale off of bonus ad?
Yes to Sheen, yes to basic attacks, yes to abilities with Total Attack Damage ratios, no to abilities with Bonus Attack Damage ratios.
: Totally, it should be that you can only buy this if you have 2 legs.
{{item:3070}} {{champion:72}} {{item:3070}}
: something i have wondered... does increased size effects like these actually grow hit boxes?
: Seems fair. Just out of curiosity, would this item benefit Bruisers like Aatrox and Sion who although have some form of CC gap closer, are both easily kited or have difficulty landing their CC in a team fight situation?
: Just to clarify, will this have the same stats and all as the BMB version?
There may be some very light tuning (on the order of -5 armor or something) to keep it in line with the other patch 5.16 items, but other than that, yes, same item as the BMB version.
: Seems like it would be an insane defensive item on more mobile champs like Hecarim or Vi who are more likely to land an auto where it counts. I'm just speculating as I've only ever built the item once on BMB, but I mean, it's got some really good stats on it. Are you guys worried about other, more dive-y bruiser classes "poaching" the item or is it no big deal/intentional?
For this particular item, not too concerned. If you have to run at opponents to catch them, its stats + strategic mobility + closing mobility + a bit of on-hit power. If you can gap close easily, it's much less efficient - you don't get much closing mobility out of it. For the juggernaut items overall, there will definitely be some problem cases of champions poaching the new items and doing totally inappropriate things with them - something we'll be keeping an eye on. That's not to say that any poaching would be a problem, just gonna have to keep an eye out for gap-close champs out-juggernauting juggernauts, or just being generally overpowered. There'll be a bit of an adjustment period.
: These items look like good options, but my question is: given that so much HP is available through itemization right now, what's to stop this from becoming the new Atmog's? It seems to me this could get out of control pretty easily, and I'd rather not see Atmog's/[Metagolem ](http://i.imgur.com/QLDYG.png) make a comeback.
Titanic Hydra is quite a bit more specific in who can use it effectively than Atma's was - you're not going to be able to build it on every champion and succeed. That said, this is a risk we're taking, and if becomes a big problem, we will react.
  Rioter Comments
: Or you could just include another Ruby Crystal in the recipe and change the combine cost. Yeah sure, it's another three-item combine item, but it's strictly better than the huuuuuuge combine cost.
The issue is more with the amount of health that the item has to then give (additional issue that a Tiamat item with 2 other components makes a hideous mess of the shop). That said, I think I was overrating that problem - I just made it build out of a Giant's Belt with a total of 400 health on the finished item, but trimmed the damage on hit to the primary target. Should be on PBE with the next deploy tomorrow, I'll update the main post then. Hopefully, the result is that you should still care about on-hit if you want to buy this item, but you don't have to care about it as much to get value (and it isn't as crazy for optimal users).
: Today I tried out the new item, Sterak's Gage. And the first thing I noticed, was that the "bonus base ad" portion is NOT a unique passive. As a responsible beta tester, I wanted to try out the abusage potential of this item, and decided to try and stack the item on Rengar (going for the oneshot on the Q with a Triforce). The first one of the items went all well, everything was fine up to that point. I didn't bother to check, whether the second Item was working properly, but I think it was. With the third item however, my AD was not displayed properly anymore. The Championinformation said I had 126 AD, where as hovering over the display showed me that I had 193 AD (which was total AD). Also it was displayed that I had no bonus AD (the number was white, not yellow/orange) although I ran full scaling AD runes. Further more, the Items now displayed that I had 33 Bonus Base AD - but the all only added 25 AD (i had 100 base AD @ lvl 15). The item seemed to THINK it scaled off of one another, but did not actually do that. Also I think that the way the item is designed now, it implies that if you have 4 of them, you can go for infinite stacking (since each grants 25% bonus base AD and one could be supposed to read the bonus of the others as well) - especially with that display bug that it shows more than it actually adds. I'm quite a fan of this item, but I think that the way this item works is very confusing. In order to fix that last part, I would suggest that somewhere on the item description it says, that these items stack additively, not multiplicatively (for the sake of clarity) - that is if it is intended for this item to stack at all. Another issue I noticed, was that the game itself did not detect my bonus-base AD correctly for a while, as my sheen-proc displayed a different value than my base AD was. Eventually that fixed itself (about 15 seconds after I bought my fourth Sterak's Gage), but still it was very confusing at first. I sincerely hope that I could help improving this item, simply because it seems like such a cool and innovative design change and addition to the game. Waiting to see the issue being fixed before release.
Thanks for the report! We're getting the display issues cleaned up. To be 100% clear, if your base AD is 100, each Sterak's that you buy should add 25 - three Sterak's Gages should get your base AD to 175. I'll take a look at Sheen - that's probably a case where the tooltip doesn't actually update all that often because it never needed to before, so it just stayed out of date for an oddly long time.
: The Titanic hydra should be build from Tiamat + Giant's belt so that you dont have to wait for that 1k gold.
This is something I'm considering - the build path is _really_ bad on that item right now. The downside is that I'd have to up the health to 400, which makes builds with Titanic Hydra in them more complete and have fewer weaknesses. It might be worth changing anyway, but the implications are kinda scary. The real solution, ultimately, will be updating some component itemization so that more items can have components that make more sense, but that's way out of scope for right now; more likely (but still no promises) to happen at Preseason.
: **// Question :** * Is **Titanic Hydras** **_Active _**handled as an on-hit effect ? If _yes _ does **Phantom Hit** [ Sated Devourer ] copy the effect or is like the **Spellblade** an one-use on-hit effect?
Phantom Hit should NOT copy it. I'm double checking to make sure that's actually the case.
: We aren't getting rid of Ravenous Hydra in exchange for this? This is in addition to, although they have the same unique passive/active names so you can't have both. Correct?
: Is Warmogs supposed to be healing this much?
: I don't think anyone's addressed the issue of Titanic Hydra having the same name as the OTHER item with Hydra in its name. Maybe it's just a thing to get used to (like saying "rush Shurelya's" instead of "rush Talisman") but it just bothers me. As for the interactions: does Sterak's Gage work on (dead) Sion? Does the proc carry over to his dead form if he dies instantly? If you somehow manage to time the proc after his death will it proc due to Sion taking damage while dying with his passive? Also: Titanic Hydra's Cleave/Crescent is a cone as opposed to a circle, any specific reason why? Does the cone lifesteal and not apply on hit effects like Ravenous Hydra's Cleave/Crescent? Finally: Do we have any recommended item lists being changed as a result of the addition of these items? I'd assume some of them would be core on some junglers (and the "juggernauts" being updated as well) but it's a bit annoying having a new item and then forgetting about it because it's not on any recommended list (looking at you, Zeke's Harbinger.)
> Also: Titanic Hydra's Cleave/Crescent is a cone as opposed to a circle, any specific reason why? When you're tied up on the front line, you can project a cone through the tanky dude to hit more valuable back line targets behind them. It's not a lot of threat, but it can help. > Does the cone lifesteal and not apply on hit effects like Ravenous Hydra's Cleave/Crescent? It does not. This is a primary point of differentiation between them.
: Not to sound ungrateful, but does the addition of these two items mean we're not getting any long awaited AD + Armor item? There were some concerns of making it too attractive for marksmen (recreating the situation in mid lane with Athene's those many moons ago), but I mean it feels really weird currently when there are defensive items with offense mixed in like Hexdrinker, Abyssal Scepter and Zhonya's Hourglass. But there are really no good options for instance AD champions who need a little armor against let's say a fed Talon or Yasuo, if they want armor they have to buy tank items like Randuin's Omen or Thornmail. Yeah, you can get Ninja Tabi, but those boots alone won't help too much. I just want to clarify what I'm saying here: An AD assassin who wants magic resist against a mage can buy Hexdrinker, mages can buy Athene's Unholy Grail if they'd rather want magic resist (and the mana sustain) against opposing mages instead of buying Morellonomicon. And some close range AP champions can opt into Abyssal Scepter if they'd like to take less magic damage from the opposing mage in their lane. And then there's Zhonya's Hourglass for any AP champion that wants to avoid burst damage from AD assassins (or burst damage in general), so they can just buy that and have get some AP and much wanted armor. But there aren't many options for the AD champions that want primarily want damage, but if they fall behind and want at least _a little_ defense to avoid the enemy from snowballing, they will miss out on a lot of damage and will only _survive fights better_ but deal _very little damage_ in return. There's no half offense half defense item for AD champions who want armor, leaving them to either build more damage or build tank items - and both of those options simply spell failure, because if you keep building damage when you're falling behind you will _die just as fast as previously_, but if you build tank items to survive better then that's the _only thing you're going to do_...survive, but deal very little damage against enemies.
This means that an AD + Armor item was not the best way to support this particular release, not that we would never do it. If it's right for another item or another set of champions, and we can make it work, we'd still consider it.
: I assume Titanic Hydra will be melee-only? It doesn't specify it in the description despite the Tiamat-style items having this attribute, so just checking. Also, will Sterak's Gage have an internal cooldown? It would be really disappointing to see a tank take 3600 damage and get the 30% HP shield twice.
Titanic Hydra is melee only. Fixing a couple places where ranged champs could get benefit from it now. Sterak's Gage does have an internal cooldown of 45 seconds.
: Does Titanic Hydra's active work as an auto reset?
: do you mean crescent, not caveat?
I meant caveat but it was a caveat about Crescent.
: I think it's: Passive 1 applies to your autoattack target Passive 2 applies to units behind your target Active replaces Passive 2 for 1 autoattack
This is correct - caveat, the active's bonus damage also applies to your main target. I'll look into better ways to word this to be more clear.
: How does the "+% Base Attack Damage" on Sterak's Gage apply to Sheen procs? Also the cone change from Tiamat -> Titanic Hydra seems a little bit annoying when CS'ing... but otherwise it looks pretty sick.
Sterak's Gage does amplify Sheen procs. The passive cone on Titanic Hydra is shaped to be pretty forgiving when just CSing - but definitely give it a shot and let me know how it goes.
  Rioter Comments
: Hey RiotJag, Can you please keep the previous version of Zeke's Herald or latch it onto another item ? I really loved using it on my kill lane supports and full AD teams. [ {{champion:421}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:5}} support, if you're curious. ] The Live version of the item is expensive thus difficult to obtain for a support, making it a balanced and an aware, niche purchase. Thank you for your time, please consider creating a new item to fit in both the current and new Zeke's Herald!
Just wanted to chip in some context on why Zeke's needed this style of update. Basically, live Zeke's requires **all** of the following to be true in a given game in order to be an efficient item: * Your team must have multiple high-scaling AD auto attackers * You must be a peel support located near them and able to sacrifice an item slot to help them * Your opponents must be doing something (typically multiple Thornmails and minimal/no wombo combo) to increase the value of lifesteal Add this to a bunch of clarity and satisfaction issues (invisible auras are always undervalued relative to their power level), plus an "ADC slave" element where you don't get to feel good about your own item purchase (unless you're support Gangplank), and you have an item which, even if balanced to actually be strong, very few players will ever buy or appreciate. The only way to get players to value it would be to make it egregiously overpowered. One thing I want to call out, by the way: > The Live version of the item is expensive thus difficult to obtain for a support, making it a balanced and an aware, niche purchase. You're getting at a really important concept - that the ability to understand itemization at a level where you can adapt within a game is a valued skill. That's a skill I'd really like to see more of - but with fully supported, valuable items that do broadly different things, rather than extremely niche items. In this case, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to fit both new Zeke's and Mikael's in a single build (not impossible, but you'll be sacrificing other stuff) - understanding when one or the other is more likely to help win the game is both an important decision and a nuanced decision, assuming we hit a good state balance-wise. tl;dr: Old Zeke's was too specific to realistically be able to support and barely purchased; new Zeke's is a very different item but also an item that can be supported more broadly; we believe new Zeke's does offer interesting and nuanced decision-making in the support itemization space.
: Thoughts on Black Cleaver update
Thanks for the feedback! Just for clarity on a couple of the things you hit on: Having this as a good 2nd-4th item was a goal - it's a weird rush item (as you note) because you don't care about the % pen at that stage of the game. The 20% cooldown reduction is in place as a very effective way to get players to value it in that spot, even though it's not the core purpose of the item. Concerns that 20% is just too much are valid and constitute one of the big risks for the item, but at this point it looks promising - the champs who want it for the CDR (instead of, say, Frozen Heart) are also champions who get good use out of the other stuff on the item. To elaborate a bit, the stats on any item have to at least be good enough to make you feel like you have permission to buy it; we're not going to e.g. load so much armor shred on this that you'll buy it despite really poor stats, because that would do all sorts of awful things (nobody ever wants to buy armor again; tanks don't exist). We hit on the 20% CDR because the champions who should probably want this item for the shred - and the phage, for that matter - are champions who previously had a significant gap in itemization in filling CDR. It's possible the CDR amount will change, particularly if we hit on a really good way to make it a strong 2nd-4th buy on those champions without having to do something like 20% CDR (or if the CDR proves particularly problematic), but it should do its job for now. Re: Phage: We tried a few different tunings of the Phage passive, but really what happens as soon as the tunings are any different from the base item is that Black Cleaver becomes "Super Phage" instead of "Armor Shred". The numbers here are something we'll be watching closely and are something that could reasonably change after some time on Live, but we're not going to buff them unless we have to and right now I don't think we're going to have to. Re: Stack counts: Sounds reasonable. I'm not totally set in my own mind that 6 is the right count here, but I'm also not getting enough data internally + in PBE testing to really prove it out either way (with that in mind, reactions like this are pretty valuable, so thanks for that!). Definitely something I'll be trying to keep an eye on as it goes live.
: Hey! You know what item we've kind of been missing? Executioner's Calling used to be the only item that placed a heal debuff on enemies that AD-focused characters could build, and those characters can't buy that item anymore. What other way do AD characters have to deal with heal-based sustain other than "deal way more damage than the enemy can handle"? Why not make an iteration of EC that builds out of Brutalizer to fill in the Brutalizer gap now that the only viable item would once again be Youmuu's?
That... might actually work. No promises (and definitely no timeline - item work takes a lot longer than you might think given how much even relatively small item changes impact the game), but I'll talk to some people about it.
: Axes, why would I rush an item that shreds armor before a) the enemy builds armor, b) my team can make use of it regardless because laning phase isn't over? These champions can rush better items to suit specific needs for earlygame. The small set of champions that can make use of this item basked in the brutalizer, those who train on the tank regardless of being toplaner or whose AoE damage tags tanks on the way to the backline (Wu, for example). The components don't particularly help either of those classes. You're making mountains out of molehills. Flat penetration turning into a percent shred is not counter-intuitive. An item that transitions from earlygame power to lategame utility seems to enrich the repertoire, not confuse it. This item is riding on 20% CDR in order to be successful live instead of its purpose of aiding people to shred tanks. Please reconsider.
> Flat penetration turning into a percent shred is not counter-intuitive. That was my assumption when we started on the item, and the first few iterations actually worked this way. We moved away from it because the response was pretty overwhelming that it wasn't working out. Just one of those things you discover through playtesting.
: Black cleaver
In general, for unique passives that share a name but aren't identical, you'll get the most generous version. In this case, Black Cleaver is equivalent or better than Tri Force in nearly every case (I think every case but there might be an edge case somewhere I haven't thought of), so you'll generally just get TBC's passive applied, but if there are cases where Tri Force's is better, you'll get Tri Force's passive applied for just those cases.
: Please please PLEASE do not change the Black Cleaver's reliability on {{item:3134}} . The Brutalizer is such a good item for early game on many bruisers and the Black Cleaver is such a good item for late game when you finally upgrade the Brutalizer for additional armor shred, right now champions that buy early brutalizers will be forced to get Youmuu's and that item REALLY sucks for late game, it's so one dimensional and a lot of its value is in bursing someone early. The same way, an early Phage really isn't a lane domination item and so I don't see people getting it and then upgrading to the new Black Cleaver either, it's just a bad idea to do it. Keep {{item:3134}} please.
You're totally right about where this leaves Brutalizer. I'd contend that Brutalizer is already in a pretty bad space due to {{item:3071}} on live being underwhelming, but this change definitely exacerbates the issues. Ultimately, though, the things that define The Black Cleaver as an item (setting up a delayed payoff) directly conflict with things that define The Brutalizer (bursting someone down as fast as possible). We do need to reassess the purpose of The Brutalizer in the game, and ensure that it builds into the right set of items, but in the meantime it didn't seem worth keeping The Black Cleaver in a relatively bad spot just because Brutalizer's problems get somewhat worse.
: That´s very true, but I still see the problem with the amount of defensive and utility it gives. First, it gives 400 Health while giving really good combat stats, since you dont really give up any power you can still go for that additional defensive item like {{item:3102}} or {{item:3026}} ending up at a spot where it gets harder to punish assassins or high dmg bruisers for mistakes. If I got you right you want {{item:3071}} to become a good but situational item, something that is "fine" overall but excells at countering Tanks, not "excells at killing tanks but is pretty ok at everything else aswell". And the second thing i saw alot is the build path (the main reason I came up with my initial suggestion), most champions that want to buy this item neither want to buy {{item:3044}} nor {{item:3067}}, ending up either buying something that is not that beneficient to them or buying it as 5. or 6. item. Would like to hear something about it, it´s not immportant to be right (got no problem getting my *** kicked for missing something out) but I´m worrying a bit about build-diversity each time I look at the stats or even worse champions overperforming with it, thus getting nerfed and then being even more reliant on this item to be relevant. In the meantime I´m gonna search and fantasize about realistic build paths for the current PBE-state, least one can do is come up with good suggestions if he doesn´t like what´s happening xD
The number of champions who would consider it as a rush item (1st or 2nd big buy) is relatively small (Darius comes up because of what Phage does for him, Gnar comes up because HP) - but the amount of armor you face early in the game is also pretty small until a bit later on. A lot of it comes down to who you actually see building the item, and when. If it's {{champion:80}} and {{champion:91}}, then yeah, they don't want either item it builds out of or really care for the final stats very much, at least compared to {{item:3074}} or similar. I've seen it on Pantheon and it works out ok, but Pantheon ends up feeling quite different from usual, unless he's super fed. On the flip side, as a followup to {{item:3068}} on {{champion:86}}, or as a rush item on {{champion:150}} or a few others, building those items make a lot more sense. Just to lay out goals: I'd like a smallish set of champions to really like the item in most games - mostly the more heavy fighter types. I'd like a larger set of the fighters (and maybe a few champs in different roles, e.g. a few ADCs buying it sometimes sounds cool) to want to consider it later in the game, mainly if they're facing off against multiple tanky opponents or something like that. If it lands in a spot where everyone buys it or a lot of champions need to buy it every game (the CDR is the biggest risk there, as a number of people have pointed out), we'd take action on that, and if it lands in a spot where nobody really wants it, we'd look to buff.
: TBH I think the 20% cdr kinda get rid of the question if someone should build {{item:3158}} on AD assassins, thus reducing the needed decision making build-wise and also giving a bit to much health for a really good fighting item, you should excell at either bursting tanks or sustaining their CC but not both. I´d like to see something like {{item:3134}} +{{item:3044}} with the following stats: - 200 HP - 50 AD - 10% CD Unique Passive - Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion Cleaves them, reducing their Armor by 5% **and 2 Points Flat **for 6 seconds (stacks up to 6 times, up to 30% **and 12 Points Flat**). Unique passive - Rage - "Dealing physical damage grants 20 movement speed for 2 seconds. Assists on Cleaved enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 80 movement speed for 4 seconds instead. This Movement Speed is halved for ranged champions (Unique Passives with the same name don't stack.) The 2 questions to this suggestion would be: 1. Would that transition into Stacks be clear enough? 2. Are the Flat stacks to strong? Cuz everybody knowing the basics knows that Flat-Reduction is far stronger than Flat-Pen since it favours your teammates asawell. Other than that you could use this instead of the Flat-Reduction: Unique Passive - Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion Cleaves them, reducing their Armor by 5% and **grants you 2 Armor Penetration** for 6 seconds (stacks up to 6 times, up to 30% **and 12 Armor Penetration**). That would split the Passive into debuff on enemy and buff on yourself, giving you less poke potential than {{item:3134}} but granting you more power for long/sustained fights. Overall i just think the current changes would offer most AD assassins and Bruisers ({{champion:114}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:64}} etc.) to much in to many perspectives while not having any drawback and i tried to retain the offensive power while reducing the the defensive power and reducing the cdr to keep the boot-decision-making alive aswell as reducing the snowball it would give. Well, just some initial thoughts.
The transition is clear - but because it still gives you flat penetration, it still gives you power to fight everyone, which means if it's good, you see it everywhere, which means we end up having to have it land in a pretty mediocre spot. Flat pen on a % shred item is one of a few reasons the Live TBC has to have poor stat efficiency, so anything that preserves that effect also means the item has to be kept pretty weak.
: Yeah, I'd love it if Brutalizer stayed instead of the Kindlegem. I like to sit on Brutalizer for some champions and then upgrade it, and this new recipe messes up that strategy.
The Brutalizer is out of the build path because an item with flat armor penetration and stacking percent shred (really, any percent shred or penetration) together just gives you the power to kill everyone - flat armor penetration is best at bursting squishy targets, while percent shred/pen make you better at dealing with the kinds of champions that you'll have to fight for a while to beat. This means that an item which does both has to be pretty crappy at both jobs, because if it's ever good at either job, its user is automatically good at fighting everyone. An item which only gives one of the two can actually be good at that one thing. For what it's worth, the first thing I tried was keeping the Brutalizer but having the finished item lose the flat pen (basically, the flat pen turns into the shred on the finished item), and that was simply too weird for people to understand or appreciate. There are a whole bunch of oddball optimization cases because finishing the item changes you from best at fighting one kind of opponent to best at fighting a different kind of opponent. It'd be somewhat the same as if we put in an MR item for defending against {{champion:10}} and {{champion:17}} that built out of {{item:3082}}. All that said: we do want to get a better handle on assassin itemization at some point and The Brutalizer sits at the center of that picture for AD Assassins. Unfortunately, though, nothing imminent.
: " Assists on Cleaved enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 80 movement speed for 4 seconds instead." The passive will still proc on creep kills, even giving even more movespeed iirc.
Yes, although the exact details of how much move speed it gives and for how long are still subject to tuning (there's a realistic possibility this ships at 60/2 seconds, though I'd like it to ship higher than that if we can get away with it).
: I think the new item is at an "okay" state, but it could be better. My concerns: 1. Phage now has a second build path, great! But at what cost? Brutalizer now only has 1 build path. Why fix a problem by creating another one? Just do {{item:3044}} + {{item:3134}} + gold = {{item:3071}}. Phage + Brutalizer = 45 AD, that's okay. Reduce the result CDR/HP accordingly. It would be nice if there was another 15% CDR item btw. 2. So you lost on the {{item:3044}} killing creeps passive? I don't like that, it helps immobile champions like {{champion:122}} & {{champion:114}} be more mobile. [ Q minion and run ] IMO, follow the above recipe. It's okay if {{item:3071}} doesn't have flat penetration, it is not the reason for upgrading {{item:3134}} into it. {{item:3142}} fills that space. 3. As mentioned above, I like my {{item:3134}} killing potential in lane while staying relevant late game. {{champion:58}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:92}}. I still want {{item:3071}} to build out of {{item:3134}} as it is the AD caster item, {{item:3044}} is better suited for onhits but fighters generally auto attack so it works fine if you mix both.
I would agree that this doesn't leave The Brutalizer in a great place - but realistically it wasn't in a great place before. TBC on live is a pretty underwhelming purchase - even champions who sound like they'd be ideal cases for it don't buy it all that often or do all that well with it, with it really filling in as a luxury buy when you want your Brutalizer #3 and happen to be really ahead. There are likely to be a few cases ({{champion:62}}?) where this pinches a bit, but this item should land in a better place for more champions.
: Idk about the passive but the cdr seems good enough, at max lower it to 15%. Tbh what makes me excited, without the passives, is the amount of cdr + ad combined since hp gives a nice dominance in the lanning phase with phage but after the lanning phase i could've had hp invested into other items to get tankier and + the fact that you have to invest 3k gold just on that item. Personally i like this. In theory has a good chance to be a thing in some situations. It gives good and varied stats, interesting passives and phage can never go wrong even if you only finish phage later (speacially top lane). Another thing i really like is the item path. Afraid of mobile champions like lee or vi to abuse this? Well the item path says otherwise, sure a phage is good but add the fact that it's more expensive and less deadly compared to if it was brutalizer and the kingdelgem is like a sitting item for them; they may gain more hp but they don't have that much damage with just a phage. QUESTION: Will the passive be sucseptible to physical DoT? Also being the item 3k gold, will keep the junglers from building it, unless massively fed. What concerns me is if they get slightly ahead to finish warrior's enchantment, buy phage and abuse in the mid game. EDIT:There's also the downside that the brutalizer won't have any other build path except ghostblade (excluding jungle items), which was the initial purpose of BC. Although i agree times changed, Ghostblade can still be sometimes a situational compared to the old BC. Wukong will be mostly hurt by these changes as well and not just the other assassin champions. TL;DR: It has really fun and interesting mix of stats specially for bruisers or rather kitetable champions in the top lane. While giving that edgy early phage for lane dominance for top lane, also keeps some assassin/fighter junglers away from it since the item is rather expensive and removes any more cheap damage with the 2nd brutalizer after finishing warrior's enchantment.
> QUESTION: Will the passive be sucseptible to physical DoT? Physical DoTs should stack it - pretty much anything that stacks live Black Cleaver stacks this one.
Show more

Riot Axes

Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion