: What do Elise's spiderlings actually offer at this point?
Please stop nerfing Elise, I know she's a strong jungler but she's not even viable top lane anymore. Why don't you buff up all the tanky junglers YOU GUYS nerfed in Season 3(rammus, zac) instead of hitting the new and fun ones which replaced them?
: Riot, please take more time with Sona.
Looks like they are releasing it as it is. RIP Sona support until they decide to buff you. Might see her mid now.
: I'm going to be flat out hostile about this: YOU'VE DONE JACK DIDDLY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM OF SONA ACTUALLY GETTING TO USE HER AURAS ON ALLIES. Every single tester has said that they're having a horrible time trying to haul buffs to their teammates, yet absolutely zero changes have been made to improve this. Her movespeed self buff isn't even enough to chase down nearby allies for single-buffing, and there's no way in hell she'll be able to reposition for "moments of power" if her team won't dry hump each other. Also, her moment of power barely matches old Sona in the early game, and all the effects then proceed to fall off a cliff into a pit of bubbling lava as soon as you hit the 20 minute mark. Not to mention that the duration of the Q/W auras is so painfully weak when compared to the time Sona actually needs to GET IN RANGE TO TRIGGER THE AURA. It feels like you tested this stuff against bots and then called it a day. Yes, I'm being that aggressive and hostile about this. Your kit flat out doesn't work, and quite frankly we'd like to see what your so-called "OP" changes actually do, because right now you're shipping Sona as a flat-out worse version of her former self.
It really isn't, I played a game earlier today where I tried to catch my ally to heal him with my my movement speed and I couldn't. He wasn't even that far ahead of me.
: The reason that we haven't increased the effective range of the auras, either through a straight range increase or through something like this, is that it is intended that Sona continuously has to make a choice between playing safe and playing to maximize the effect of every cast. This is also why Sona has gotten even better AP ratios. Sona players can build tanky/support tank and increase their safety, or they can opt into higher risk reward with AP builds. Larger effective aura sizes not only increase Sona's effective support output, but decrease interaction with allies and leave opponents no real chance to respond if she's strong, and no real room to buff her if she's weak.
Doesn't that sort of make Sona a snowbally champ, she will either need to spend a lot of money on tank items( randuins/locket). Or a lot of money on AP(Lichbane/rabadons). Since her Q cooldown is longer and since the GP5 of frostfang is being lowered if your the team that is losing how are you supposed to be impactful as Sona? You can't afford the tank items to get in close, or the AP items to make them worthwhile? Now I'm sort of wondering if this rework will push Sona to mid lane where she can fulfill that powerfantasy of giving out good buffs to her allies lategame. So was the intention to make Sona the new lulu? Sort of a supporty mage who can help buff the ADC but not actually a support? I'm actually wondering if Sona mid will be more of the thing now instead of support. I guess I'm actually okay with that. But now I see Riot nerf lulu top and I wonder if everyone takes Sona mid will you start nerfing her because that was not your intention?
: It's not that I don't care. Some of the suggestions don't fit the vision for the champion, some are just straight up OP, and some were tested and didn't work as well as the current option. It's been something I need to do better with to make sure that you and the rest of the community at least hears more in these situations. I'll admit to getting overwhelmed with the actual implementation and analysis for Sona, and not spending enough time addressing the feedback.
I don't mean to be so hostile, it's just one of my favorite champs. I think she was the first one I bought a skin for(arcade) so everytime she gets nerfed it's a bit dissapointing. Lately all I play is Nami, because Leona gets countered by Morgana and Braum is always banned or gets countered by morgana. I play Janna but I know I am gimping our kill potential in lane and hoping we make it to late game. I never really enjoyed thresh though his kit is well rounded. So I was hoping this rework would bring Sona back up to a strong pick. So sorry if I am a little biased and frustrated it's really encouraging to read that you are listening.
: I think it's a very fair criticism that I didn't speak to you all as much as you'd hoped for. Saying that only 3 comments on one thread doesn't suffice? That get's a bit tricky. What is the correct ratio of posts? Do I only count posts that have actually tried to open or inform a conversation, or should I count troll posts and people raging without having even played the rework? At what point is my time posting and searching for ambient Sona threads better spent talking with our QA, live balance team, and experimenting with changes, tweaks and bug fixing? It's very possible that I didn't get that formula even close to right. It's something for me to improve on. That being said, when I look at posts that have lots of incorrect information, I started the time on PBE correcting them to make sure truthful information would be visible. Seeing those posts then get downvoted tells me that this community would rather punish someone they don't agree with rather than provide its members with the most accurate info. That's really depressing for me, both as a community member and a designer. It also doesn't help when words get put into my mouth. For E, example, I don't think the AP ratio "balances the ability." I think a completely new ability that gives Sona, as well as her allies a very large block of MS makes sense on a kit that focuses on positioning. Sona can now position for huge ults without Flash due to E, as well as use her other basic abilities with quicker repositioning to save her team and power them up. When we change a champion, some of the balance will be comparative, but plenty of it can't be. Sona is Sona, and her balance as a whole is very different than any other champion. Sona has to be balanced of the collection as her base stats, abilities, growth, item paths, etc. I know it can be frustrating to see a value go down, and it can be easy to dwell on that change in isolation. When we're adjusting Sona, we're looking at the whole, and when she was showing up really strong, we tried to keep her power in the places that gave Sona her own set of strengths and weaknesses. That means she has to be worse at some things than other champions, but she gets to have strengths that are actually her own.
Essentially you have taken power from Sona and given it to her team. The problem is this works well in your playtesting but how will it work in Solo Que, that's why people asked for larger auras. At least that's why I did. So if Sona can't use her auras effectively and since you have taken power from Sona herself, then this is why a lot of us see this as a nerf to a champion who didn't need nerfs. We want strong auras or instead an increased aura radius because we know we cannot trust our teammates to read our minds and use our auras effectively. Additionally long cooldowns do not feel good unless the spells are impactful. Let me provide an example say we are in a late game teamfight and the enemy team has an amumu jungler and an orianna middle. Not that rare of an occurence in solo que. Is it really worth it for me to cast my W and then attempt to shield as many of my teammates as possible. Do we really want to group that close and get wombo comboed by any decent Orianna or amumu. Or Yasuo, Or Jarvan, OR ETC. The Aura radius is counter-intuitive to what you are trying to accomplish. We know having a huge radius in lane would let Sona just sit way back and would not be fun for the opposing lane. That's why a lot of us have suggested you have the radius scale with her ult. When would it ever be worth it to comprimise your positioning to give such a small shield lategame, except at the baron pit? Also when you responded to me a few weeks ago regarding Sona not giving her powerchord to herself I don't know if it was a bug or if the enemy champion just had a bunch of MRES runes. So I apologize for that, I wasn't trying to be intentionally misleading because I played a custom bot game to test it out and it does indeed work.
: I wanted to post here to clear up the reasons we've been lowering Sona's values, even while the community here is asking for buffs. Most of the balance changes are reflections of internal playtesting, as we can balance those scenarios pretty well (accounting for people playing their main roles and champs, having less of a learning curve due to their closeness to the changes, etc.) so they give us a reasonably strong environment for understanding a champ's balance. PBE doesn't have all of this going for it. Matchmaking is much less precise on the PBE, and some players are just hopping into custom games. Based off watching the internal playtests, Sona was strong, and not just a little strong. Sona really hadn't lost a lane before these changes. As a side note, for the people claiming that negative posts don't get read, that's not true. I've read every Sona post I can find on here, on community sites, reddit, everything. While also trying to get Sona as streamlined and bug free as I can, time to reply is pretty lown When I see 3 or 4 people spamming out really angry posts, I do take the feedback and try to understand the source of frustration. I haven't responded in this case because previous attempts to have discussions haven't proven productive. I don't expect to change the minds of people who've had poor experiences here based on talking about what happened in testing they can't see and don't believe in. Being called a monkey doesn't really make me believe that folks are interested in a meaningful discussion. If I have to choose between making an attempt to appease people who haven't displayed a tendency to actually interact with debate, or fixing up Sona for her release, I'm going to fix up Sona so that she's a better addition to the entire game, for as many players as I possibly can.
I'll admit I'm angry and frustrated. But I wasn't with the nidalee rework or any of the other reworks you have done even when you toned down the champions power. Why? Because it was something new and interesting and fun. The new Sona is just a mess, it's so clunky. That being said I do understand the potential here, I understand the idea of taking passive effects and turning them into active effects to make the game more interesting. Also I wouldn't completely rely on whatever internal testing you're using because of things like Kha'Zix. I'm pretty sure when every player saw those changes to both his R and Q and isolation they knew you were gutting him too hard. He definitely needed nerfs but it seemed so obvious that was overboard. I'm sure to your internal testers maybe it didn't seem so obvious otherwise why would you go through with those changes? I was hoping the new Sona rework would be something like how Udyr currently works even if it means you have to bring her power down. Constantly switching between stances/chords would be way more interesting. Long cooldowns aren't fun unless they are impactful spells. Her spells do not feel impactful at all. Maybe her W when her ally is almost dead. The heal is strong on that, otherwise the Q and W and especially the E at any other time are weak. Even with these Nami, Braum, and Thresh nerfs I'd definitely choose any of them over Sona the way she is right now. Why? Simply because I know I can rely on my own skills and positioning to win, rather than hope my ADC knows when I'm going and how to position in a way that doesn't get us both killed. You have to think of Solo Que too, not just people who can communicate with eachother. I'd be interested to hear why increasing the radius of her auras, by having them scale with leveling her ult simply would make Sona too unbalanced. Have you playtested it, have you thought of it, have you tried it?
: Live Sona = never picked......so we get a nerf and with this nerf Sona NEVER lost a lane in Riot's internal tests
Where did you hear that? If she never lost a lane it's probably because they tested it with two people communicating vs two people not, and even then I doubt she would never lose. She feels clunky and weaker than on live if you're just playing solo que.
: Newest Sona Update!
I made a comment which I deleted because the lack of a discussion about the Sona changes from Riot's side is frustrating. It would be awesome if they could look at the some of the best ideas the community has offered and iterated on those to get them balanced, to make Sona a strong pick again, and to keep her fun. If they don't agree with these ideas they should offer explanations as to why they can't or don't want to make Sona more interesting and viable.
: I have three alternate ideas: Increasing Sona's aura range by upgrading ultimate Increasing each (Q, W, E) aura's range by upgrading them. Increasing Sona's aura range per ally champion hit.
All great ideas, I've definitely loved the ultimate aura range one because it will ensure that her auras aren't huge in lane when they don't need to be but will be larger in teamfights where they do need to be.
: Idea for helping Sona's aura range
maybe it could bounce around like Varus' ult so it doesnt cause big circles on the ground but little visual effects on the champions effected?
: Riot, please take more time with Sona.
Whoever is making the decisions on this rework doesn't seem to care about feedback. They are doing their own thing. We've all been making topics and offering suggestions and they simply don't care.
: Idea for helping Sona's aura range
interesting idea, however this could cause clarity issues if theres a ton of circles on the ground.
: Todo esta bacan *.* riot OP
Add all the Bacon to Sona, it might make her OP though. BACON OP.
: Sona's E suggestions from the community. Please contribute guys.
Hey guys I just edited my post credit goes to FrostOverlord for a really great idea that opens up a lot of potential for the new Sona both for her to counterplay supports who currently dominate her in lane and for those supports to offer counterplay against her.
: Just like to mention that her E doesn't give 20% MS, but 20 MS. Yes. 20. 20% and 20 is a huge difference, since if it was 20% MS, 335 speed will go to 402 MS, and 20+ MS will make it 355. That 20 MS is hardly noticeable anyways, by the time you max E, which you probably did last, everyone had shoes by then and it was worthless. And I don't know what the heck you are saying when you mentioned that Q is only good for full AD team when you clearly mentioned 20 AP. 2.0. AP. Up there. Look, I am not saying REVERT SONA TO WHERE IT WAS! Or SONA IS POWERFUL ENOUGH NOW, AND SHE IS FINE. SHE DOESN'T NEED REWORK! That's beside the point. I am saying that since they are going to rework a champion, actually listen to player feedback and make the champion not so useless. I also have to disagree with the fact that it's a huge buff; you have to recognize the fact that Q's base damage, W's base heal, and the CD was all nerfed in general as they went through the rework. Sure, it was in place for reworking the auras, but I already addressed all that problems above. I don't want Sona to be OP. I want her to be usable. In the live server, she was quite lacking compared to other major supports. I think its time for her to go back in the ranks of those supports, but that doesn't mean I want her OP. I just want her to be actually more useful than a Crescendo bot, which Annie can probably do better. Next time when you ask a question, come with the right info and know what you are actually talking about. If I am a bit harsh, I am sorry.
: Still don't believe what's happening.
Changing the duration of the buff is a step in the right direction. Not one I expected but a welcome one, my main problem was that it was really hard to tag allies with Auras in teamfights without comprimising your position. With a 5 second aura duration your allies can weave in and out to get your buffs. It should help her a bit I think but it's definitely not the way I'd fix her problems, it's sort of clunky.
Rioter Comments
: What about this? * Initial cast grants nearby (W range more or less) allies a boost of 10/15/20/25/30% Movement Speed that lasts for 1 second * Aura grants allies a 10/15/20/25/30% slow on their next attack that lasts for 2 seconds. * Aura lasts 3 seconds, extended by 0.5 seconds for each ally tagged * Power chord now snares for 1 second
Of course I would love to have this, but I think this would make her too strong. Speeding everyone up while giving (possibly) your whole team slows and then buffing her E powerchord to a snare, which is much more powerful than a slow. Honestly it would just make her too strong I think.
: the problem of sona,and all the squishy supp,is they are too easy to kill,being sona almost the mobile free kill of LOL,maybe u can remember the days when sona got the lowest HP at lvl 1...a draven could kill her at lvl 1 with 2 hits... so,with this on mind notice something,why karma is good supp? good damage,shield and MOBILITY. why the ADC CC are also squishy but good like{{champion:81}} ,{{champion:104}} ? because MOBILITY repositioning tool. why {{champion:412}} or {{champion:201}} are good supps? because JUKE MOBILITY repositioning,thresh Q and braum W.(also are tanks...) then,how to fix squishies? giving tankiness...CC...or utility...like mobility. since SONA cant have tankiness,cause shes not intended as a tank then she need CC,but sona cant have low CDs CC cause shes a spammer. then a good solution is giving MOBILITY. but WHY mobility? well the real concept of this is ezreal{{champion:81}} E and {{summoner:4}} . a sona with a free flash like every 11 second is a useful sona. she will poke, she will escape, she will gank, she will juke, she wont easily feed SHE WILL BE MORE USEFUL then...what or who are the new supports? I saw {{champion:161}} ,{{champion:1}} ,{{champion:134}} ,{{champion:127}} ,{{champion:60}} ,{{champion:64}} ,{{champion:76}} ,{{champion:113}} notice they are mostly non real supports! but they can work as intended,and look,they got something more: big damage CC! or MOBILITY... so,again,what sona really needs? free flash{{summoner:4}} every 11 seconds. WTF!? BUT that would be very OP!? not really...if we see my examples lee sin{{champion:64}} and elise{{champion:60}} ,even nidalee{{champion:76}} have MANALESS dashes available at lvl 1...and can support... and then you could say a teleport and a dash are different things. yes,I must agree, the best solution to sona{{champion:37}} id giving to her a free flash {{summoner:4}} ,as people would normally rage at the idea of a teleport champ....{{champion:81}} /{{champion:38}} I selected DASH as the second best tool for sona{{champion:37}} . the real concept of dash/teleport is reposition/real escape allowing her to SURPASS obstacles as walls or terrain abilities{{champion:34}} {{champion:48}} and ALSO will help 2 things as her supp role JUKE and BAIT. "oh,there is a lonely sona" *jumps the assasing to kill her* *sona teleport through wall* *assasin also flash to chase* *2 allies were on the other side of the wall* assasin used their mov.toll and flash,so got no escape tool...BAITED. I suppose is a pretty solid utility.mobility creep could be a problem,but is the solution to this current tanky meta of the last seasons.
Completely agree. A dash would allow her to do smany things. 1) Utilize her auras safely in team fights 2) Actually use flash to escape or make plays (Flash W for the Heal, Flash Q for the damage). With a dash she can use that to setup her crescendo and not depend on flash. 3) Solves some of her squishy issues. Grabbed by thresh or Blitz you either flash or your insta dead. Maybe with a dash now you can get away, maybe. It would just be more fun to play and to watch her.
: 1- UTILITY (to herself): E makes her dash as RIVEN,VAYNE ,GRAVES "Active: sona does a quick dash in the direction of your cursor" 2- E makes her have the same effect as ORIANNA W: "sona release a sonic wave around her, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies. The wave leaves behind a sonic disruption for 3 seconds, lowering enemy movement speed and increasing ally movement speed for 2 seconds. This effect diminishes over time." 3- LISSANDRA E Ring of Frost Freezes an area around Lissandra, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies and snaring them for a short time. 4-KARTHUS E +mov.spd active: Drains mana to deal magic damage to nearby enemies each second,max 4 seconds,also increase mov. spd in XX % during 2 seconds,This effect diminishes over time. but I prefer the dash (1), a grinding sona would be the best. sadly,the managers of this rework dont want to hear us...
Some good ideas here, like an earlier post I am liking a self dash for Sona it solves so many of her issues. Thank you for contributing.
: I have to agree, Song of Celerity has always been fairly weak, really. I've never seen much use in ranking it more than once early on simply because, in the long and short of things, either of her other basic abilities would be better off with that rank up. I mean, yeah, the E power cord's great, and I know for a fact it's let me secure more than a few kills for my team in the past, but the speed boost has just never felt strong enough to rank over her other skills. Keep in mind, though, that when coming up with Ideas for changing it you need to have the theme of the ability in mind. Celerity means "swiftness of movement," so when you think of ideas for it they'll need to have something to do with mobility. You also need to keep in mind that a lot of Sona's power budget is taken up by her other skills, and a buff to her E might mean decreasing the power of one or more of her other abilities. All that said, I'm a fan of turning E into a very short range dash, Al la {{champion:76}} . why? Because her new auras are a much shorter range than her old ones. She needs to be closer in the action for them to take effect, and so a short dash(Nothing major. Wall jumping would be restricted to the thinner of walls) would help her reposition herself to take advantage of her other abilities. The aura I would leave as-is, because as far as passive effects go it's VERY good. While this probably wouldn't switch Song of Celerity away from it's status as a one-point wonder, It would go miles towards making the skill FEEL better in my opinion (fan though I am of *light-speed Sona,* in a real game being able to afford the items that make that a reality while still helping your team is a bit of a stretch.) Giving Sona a dash though, while certainly satisfying for the person playing her, would require a lot of balancing. Not necessarily around the Dash, either. By nature of being a part of sona's kit, the dash would be relatively spammable so that she can use the aura. Likely the spell's mana cost would go up, and her damage would also probably take a hit as a result of her new positioning skill. Imagine a world were Sona never needs to blow flash to get off that perfect ultimate. Yeah, scary, huh? Or imagine tossing out your Q, then Eing away from any return fire before the enemy has a chance to respond! Hell, Sona's a relatively terrifying champion, damage-wise. Imagine having a full AP Sona dash out of a brush and Q > Ult > Lichbane empowercord your squishiest squishy to death before flashing over a wall to the safety of her team. Such a thing is frightening indeed. So yeah, while a dash would be nice, we need to keep in mind just how much potential Sona already has. I personally LIKE being able to lay the smackdown on the people hurtin' mama sona's babeh/carry, so if it means sacrificing her support damage potential I'm not sure I *want* her E to be much better. Just a friendly reminder that, while I'm totally in favor of making E feel more useful, it WILL come at a cost. Any ideas we have need to keep that in mind.
I really like this idea, in "league of mobility" this would really really help Sona a lot. Especially with her new auras. A sort of graves style dash? It could also help her setup her ultimate without relying on flash. She could then use flash to get away or reposition for her auras like 70% of other champions in the game.
Rioter Comments
: Newest Sona Update!
If this goes through with the way it's currently tuned I want a refund on Sona because there will be no reason to play her when I can win more games with pretty much any other support. Slightly weaker laning phase, and much weaker teamfighting, and she's not fun anymore. Not just to me but to the majority of people who have posted in this thread. I know I probably won't get one but I'm going to try my best, because there are some really good suggestions being posted here and Riot seems hellbent on ignoring them. Either the auras radius need to scale with her ult so it's less risky to apply them lategame, or you need to increase the numbers scaling on her auras so that potentially dying lategame is worth it if you give your adc that shield or that damage or speedboost. Honestly, I don't know what the right numbers are, or what the right course of action is. I just play the game, I don't balance it. But I do know that right now Sona feels neither fun nor like a strong pick.
: I'm starting to think that this rework is: * Either driven by a mad and dangerous monkey. * Or just like a "mad train": something that has gone out of control.
I think it's just one guy whose upset because he thought he had a really clever idea for sona. Then he got all these comments saying WTF, or proposing better ideas. So now he's mad and is just doing whatever the heck he wants. That's typically how people function.
: Thresh Change Feedback
I would much rather they buff every support up to thresh's level of usefulness, but since they seem unwilling to do that he was definitely stronger than pretty much every other support except braum.
: They really need to find a way to communicate "We have read this and we take it into consideration". I mean, if you look at red posts collection they write all the time that they are on the forums and reading everything. And that they just don't comment to interrupt the discussions because of their "Riot status", and i'm totally okay with that. But if we're actually crying out to them, it would be kinda nice to get a "A Rioter has noticed this" or "A Rioter has read this" or "A Rioter thinks this is a point worth discussing". Just a little message that we know that the Reds are watching us.
I kind of want them to address this. At least tell me if they've considered it. "Someone suggested a great idea of when leveling her ult instead of it giving stats to her Q, W, and E it would increase the radius of her auras. That way she won't be overpowered in lane but can still position more safely in teamfights. Posting this everywhere because I think it's a fantastic idea."
: @Riot [Suggestion] Sona's alternative rework.
It's a good idea but it would make Sona way too strong. Basically your keeping her the way she is live but buffing her with these additional pbe changes. They could increase her cooldowns to compensate but it's not really fun to not have any abilities to cast.
: It's per-person. Only one wall can do damage to the same person. I personally find this a tad overboard, but his ult can be a little overpowered if it's placed properly, so two walls hit someone instantly. I suggest just upping the reduction to 75% or so.. so if the damage is 300, second wall is 75, third (unlikely to be hit anyway) is roughly 18, etc.
Ok that's really good, making just one wall deal damage to anyone would of been a giant nerf. But if it's just eliminating the double dipping effect I'm all for it.
: Shielding is shielding. It doesn't matter who or what you are, when you shield an ally you do it with the intention of protecting that champion from damage. The point, which you seem to be missing, is Thresh's shield actually works and is viable, whereas Sona's is disgustingly weak.
The only reason Sona would want to tag all her allies with her shield lategame would be in the baron pit. The amount shielded isn't worth the risk of comprimising your positioning. It's also weak early game because Q will still be maxed first, and since Sona and utility supports in general can't afford nor is it cost efficient to build massive amounts of AP because of Riots scaling nerfs pre-season to these supports the shield will not scale well at all early or lategame.
: Basically, it's not a good idea to paint a target on every Sona's head that says "I'm easy to kill for a bit." I gotcha.
Yea pretty much. I also read they slightly nerfed the already shitty shield of her W. I truly don't understand whoever is doing these Sona updates. I'm not showing favoritism towards Sona, my favorite support is nami. I am 16-10 with Sona in ranked which is pretty good I think, gold 3. I'm no pro but I think I understand enough to know that as the reworked Sona is now she's slightly weaker in lane. And significantly weaker in teamfights. This champion needed buffs not nerfs. Regardless of all that she isn't as funy anymore whether nerfed or buffed. I can predict with some confidence that people will play her a lot at first to try out the re-work and then almost no one will play her again until she gets buffed. Specifically the radius of her auras impair her teamfight positioning. The radius should scale with her ult.
: Newest Sona Update!
Someone suggested a great idea of when leveling her ult instead of it giving stats to her Q, W, and E it would increase the radius of her auras. That way she won't be overpowered in lane but can still position more safely in teamfights. Posting this everywhere because I think it's a fantastic idea.
: I, uh, have to disagree. There have been plenty of games where the enemy has had the advantage of XP where I have won lane and vice versa. I don't think every game has a set in stone path to who will win and who wont because it really depends on the individual's skill at the end.
It depends if the enemy team is smart enough to capitalize on the extra health, resists, and second ability they get when they hit level 2 and chunk you down or kill you. Depends on your elo and the enemy team. Also if your only 1 minion behind hitting level 2 then it doesn't matter as much, however if your jungler got invaded so you had to provide a strong leash and your 4 minions behind and the enemy is intelligent they will chunk you down, blow summoners, or kill you. A lvl 1 Sona/whoever vs a level 2 Thresh and whoever. They will take bush control, and force you to tower or kill you.
: Riot, I hope you're reading the posts about Sona...
Someone suggested a great idea of when leveling her ult instead of it giving stats to her Q, W, and E it would increase the radius of her auras. That way she won't be overpowered in lane but can still position more safely in teamfights. Posting this everywhere because I think it's a fantastic idea.
: I agree that the balance team could be trolling. But regarding to her health changes being a buff, I don't know. Personally I've always played Sona very cautiously the first few levels until I at least had two upgrades on my Q. I think in the end the increased health is actually a buff. It depends on your playstyle I guess.
Botlane is all about who hits 2 first. If the enemy team hits 2 first and Sona and her ADC are still one she is going to be the squishiest support in the game next to zyra. But zyra has range sona has nothing.
: Because she was already at her weakest at low levels. Before this rework me and a lot of other people were asking for buffs to her base armor and hp since it's some of the lowest in the game. Hence why everyone says sona is squishy. Since most people are in agreement that this rework is a NERF to Sona it's really confusing why they would further nerf her already weak early game. It's actually bewildering at this point. I mean I'm not trying to be a jerk but I honestly have to question if the balance team is trolling?
I think Riot should just hire some of the Pro players to balance their game. Meteos did an interview on how to fix junglers and quill coat and how Zac is still garbage, he basically laid out the issue and how to fix it in a few seconds.
: How does this kill her? Her health has been increased from levels 4-18. She just has a lower level 1-3 health total.
Because she was already at her weakest at low levels. Before this rework me and a lot of other people were asking for buffs to her base armor and hp since it's some of the lowest in the game. Hence why everyone says sona is squishy. Since most people are in agreement that this rework is a NERF to Sona it's really confusing why they would further nerf her already weak early game. It's actually bewildering at this point. I mean I'm not trying to be a jerk but I honestly have to question if the balance team is trolling?
: Sona does indeed get the bonus damage on her attacks. if the feedback for that is failing, that would be a bug. I verified that it's working on our internal data earlier today, I'll check first thing tomorrow that PBE isn't having issues here. As for allies not using the buff well, that's going to be something that people adapt to and learn. When champs change, people don't initially use them to their full advantage. I know that can be frustrating, but giving Sona chances to have a big impact that can either succeed for fail allows us to make the successes much more powerful. Sorry again for any bugs you're seeing that are causing your frustration. Thanks for trying Sona on the PBE so we can get them fixed up before they hit Live.
When I tried it this morning in a custom bot game the damage seemed to be working fine. But when I tried it when I posted that message with an adc in 5v5 it didn't seem like it was proccing maybe if you give someone the aura it doesn't proc on herself? I haven't played her enough to test it out, I could be wrong or it could of been a fluke. Sorry about that.
: I played new Sona in Intermediate Bot games. Overall I like the idea but not its execution. First of all, I love the visual changes and her hair is a lot better, but her hair is a tad glitchy while moving on the Guqin Sona skin. The new audio is nice, but I wish she played random League theme songs or popular tunes (Legend of Zelda anyone?) while she floats about, not silence. It's what makes her a Maven of the Strings, the music!. The only thing I think is strong about her kit now is the heal, it does a lot more late game than on live. I had built {{item:3504}} {{item:3092}} {{item:3117}} {{item:3222}} mainly, sometimes {{item:3174}} (I didn't usually get to full build) but {{item:3117}} were necessary otherwise it was really fricking hard to get any auras on my allies. Early CDR and mana regen were mandatory. I don't think this is the wrong direction to take the beloved {{champion:37}}. I like the whole mini-game aspect to tag as many allies as you can, however, I fear this will make her underwhelming instead of a solid pick. The aura range is killer. A tiny aura > a lot of danger to place it > a tiny reward=not worth. Either make those rewards stronger or increase the ranges, or heck both because Sona isn't OP on live compared to other popular supports, why not buff a champ for once. She was only popular in s3 because supports were ward bots and that hard CC could set up fights and she could die right after, her job done. Her other abilities didn't matter really. (Still nerfed her anyway for some reason)** I really like the previously stated idea of it scaling up with ult rank so it is a larger range late game during teamfights for Sona's safety. **Having strong positioning still wont help you with these ranges, you can only save yourself really. Abandon your front line, or help them and guarantee your own death? Those are pretty much your only options as this reworked Sona.** A support should be able to save AND survive** in most cases, so I think she needs: * A better shield that lasts as long as the aura. * A stronger increase of damage on the auto attack, or give two auto-attacks of the same increased damage. * A movespeed increase that targets allies like the previous E **AND** allies in the aura range get an attack speed boost that lasts as long as the aura. This makes her more unique and a good pick with auto-attack reliant ADCs like Vayne or Kog to help nurse their weak early games and guide them to late game. Makes it useful in lane too. (This will also aid in skirmishes, and help the ADC's kite when her ult is on CD. A Sona with no ult on live can't save anyone from anything, even minions) Otherwise** her auras aren't rewarding enough for the risks of placing them**. The 2 second shield is literally the strength of a lv 1 adc auto attack, that shield does pretty much nothing, because it'll disappear too fast. The one increased damage auto is negligible. I read somewhere that they hesitated on increasing the shield because it has no "counterplay" for trades, but all Sona can do is trade; she doesn't have hard cc in her other 3 abilities to set anything up, like a {{champion:412}} Hook, {{champion:267}} Bubble, {{champion:201}} Winter's Bite, {{champion:25}} Binding, {{champion:53}} Grab. (These are her counters too btw) **Sona pokes, she should excel in trades, sustain, and poking because she doesn't have any other option at early levels,** she can't set up ganks pre-6 either. A stronger shield would hurt no one and would still not make her OP. All popular supports counter her hard, like Morgana can make her one CC completely useless if she predicts it. Larger aura ranges will not make her broken. Plenty of other supports are strong as hell right now with their kits. Why can't Sona have a stronger kit too? I don't understand the fear of giving her better numbers. Sona is literally paper the least she can do is have some solid utility and some damage, otherwise she can never compete with any other popular support and will fall out of existence like many other champs in League.
"I really like the previously stated idea of it scaling up with ult rank so it is a larger range late game during teamfights for Sona's safety. " Wow this is a fantastic idea. Instead of her ult adding more stats to her Q, W , and E I'd much rather it have it scale up the range of her auras. This won't make her overpowered in lane but will help her in teamfights. Maybe each level adds 100 range. So at level 16 the aura is 600 range. Really Really good idea in my opinion and this would actually make this rework decent. I really hope someone from Riot who is working on these Sona changes sees this.
: Question on Thresh's Ult change.
Bump, anyone tested this out, or can any reds answer this, is this just removing the double dipping on the same champion or is this making only 1 section of the wall damaging to anyone?
Rioter Comments
: Newest Sona Update!
Thank you for upgrading Arcade Sona's Skin.
: While I do agree that this rework so far has been a nerf, the fact that they removed the persistent aura on her Q is not a nerf. Come on. Her current aura provides 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20 increased attack/ability power based on rank. That right there is one of the reasons she's not a viable support right now. It's ridiculously low. The change in Q allows for more dynamic gameplay as well as in the end (depending upon how active you are) a damage increase from the aura.
Her auras used to give more stats, they were consistently nerfed in Season 3. Also that damage adds up over time. League has recently been seeming to go for WoW balance rather than actual balance. WoW balance's goal wasn't to attain actual balance but to change the game enough each patch to keep things fresh. Similiarly the goal of this re-work isn't to balance Sona but rather to change things up to keep players interested. You can probably thank Ghostcrawler, that man destroys everything he touches Age of Empires, WoW, now League.
Rioter Comments
: Her damage has gone up, per cast. It's lower only if you land the bolt and nothing else. If you land the enhanced auto, you've put out more damage to a target, and if you have any allies also get the proc, you've almost doubled your damage from the bolt at early levels. Damage builds are risky, sure but we intentionally kept her ratios very high so these builds would be effective.
Please don't be dishonest whether intentional or uninintentional. Let's examine the facts. *Q- Cooldown from 7 seconds on live to 8 seconds. Verdict NERF. *Q- Powerchord damage cut in half from live. Verdict Substantial NERF. *Q- Persistent Aura removed. Verdict Substantial NERF. *Q- Aura radius from 1000 on live to 350 on pbe. Verdict Substantial NERF. *Q-now grants allies +20(+20 per rank+25%AP) extra damage on next attack. Stealth nerfed because the wording was changed to allies whereas earlier on the PBE the effect was given to Sona as well. Now Sona still gets the animation on her hands for the effect but it doesn't seem to apply to her. Verdict Mediocre BUFF. Why do I consider this only a mediocre buff? Well because in solo que or even in duo que without a Mic.... heck even with a MIC there is a good chance this extra attack damage will be used on a minion. Whereas Sona live is constantly buffing your ADCS damage on the enemy and minions this change makes it for only 1 attack every 8 seconds. Additionally this coudl cause your ADC to miss CS by over or underestimating his own damage. Whereas Sona's live aura provides consistent value. In conclusion, I'd rather have the damage on myself so I can decide what to do with it. It's sort of like Nami's E, I learned it's usually a smarter decision in the laning phase to give it to myself so I can slow the enemy for a bubble. Only in mid and lategame am I constantly using it on my ADC. I feel this is how Sona's Q "buff" will work now, except she doesn't have the option of applying it to herself. Making it useless in the laning phase. So 1 small nerf, 4 substantial nerfs and 1 mediocre buff on her Q. *Overall that is a LARGE NERF*. I haven't even begun to talk about the nerfs to her other abilities.
: Her damage has gone up, per cast. It's lower only if you land the bolt and nothing else. If you land the enhanced auto, you've put out more damage to a target, and if you have any allies also get the proc, you've almost doubled your damage from the bolt at early levels. Damage builds are risky, sure but we intentionally kept her ratios very high so these builds would be effective.
That's not true at all please don't be misleading whether intentional or unintentional. Let's examine the facts. *Q- Cooldown nerf from live from 7 seconds to 10 seconds at first now at 8 seconds. **Verdict NERF**. *Q-Damage Nerf from live Base of 50+50 per level. PBE is base of 40+40 per level. **Verdict SUBSTANTIAL NERF.** *Q No longer grants persistent Damage aura. **Verdict Substantial NERF.** *Q powerchord now cut in half from live value. **Verdict Substantial NERF** *Q Radius cut from 1000 range to 350 Range. **Verdict Substantial NERF** *Q now grants +20 (+20 per level) +25% AP damage to ally on next attack. When you first implemented this it also granted Sona the damage, now she still gets the animation on her hands but I no longer see her getting the extra damage. Stealth nerf? The wording was changed also. **Verdict Mediocre buff,** because most times your allies will not know when you are going to use your Q and will just use the buff as they are last hitting minions. *Q recap*- 1 Small Nerf(CD by 1s) 4 Substantial Nerfs( Q damage lowered, Powerchord damage lowered, Persistent Aura removed , Aura radius lowered.) In exchange our ADC get and extra 20/40/60/etc damage on his next attack. Which will most likely be wasted on minions and which does not benefit Sona and which is reduced by magic resist. A mediocre buff. So how can you say with a straight face that this overall is not a nerf to Sona? I haven't even got started on her other abilities....
: I will say once again what I've said three times: This whole rework is wrong since the beginning, and that's why you're having so much trouble readjusting everything. And I still haven't seen someone saying "We are reworking Sona because...". If this is made to make her popular again, you're doing it wrong. You'll lose like 70 or 80% of Sona's players, so it won't be even worth comparing number of players before and after rework. Live Sona IS good. You've kept ignoring this fact to satisfy I-don't-know-what-kind of desire of yours, and players are complaining. So, why don't you just use up the VFX update and the texture update and cancel the rework? Some of us would be very pleased.
Completely agree, I don't understand the point of this rework. It seems like they want to nerf Sona AGAIN for some reason when not that many people even play her or ban her or are calling for any nerfs.
: Newest Sona Update!
Question, in an earlier build you guys bumped Sona's base armor up to 18, I don't see that change listed above. Was it reverted? 0_o Also please scrap this rework, it's still not fun.
: Newest Sona Update!
I'm willing to give this a try right now. I'll post back soon with my impressions.
: Sona Update is back! Feedback and changes here!
**How many games have you played on the Sona Update?** 2-3 on the first iteration, 1 on the new iteration. **What sort of game was this? (Doom bots, Summoners Rift 5v5, Standard Bots, Howling Abyss, etc.)** All 5v5 Summoners Rift **Did you find any bugs?** Yes, Sona no longer plays music. The audio for some of the skins seemed to be missing when I tried arcade Sona and Guqin. H**ow was laning phase?** On live you run out of mana from spamming W, not Q. Despite the longer CD's which give you time to regen more mana I was still running out of Mana even with Q. Additionally without the passive stats Sona is more squishy, I used to keep the W aura on when we were pushed to turret and taking poke, no longer. Also I used to keep the Q aura on to help my ally win trades and last hit, no longer. Since her E is still useless and since the cooldowns and mana costs have gone up you spend most of your time doing nothing with Sona but trying to get in a good autoattack, unfortunately supports like Zyra and Annie can outrade you in Autos. **How was mid and late game?** You need to Rush 40% Cdr or you're useless, while that was always good with Sona I never felt like I NEEDED to until this rework. Additionally if the enemy team is smart they will counterpick your Sona with an Aoe midlaner like Ziggs or Orianna. Which makes tagging allies with your Auras very very risky especially against aoe CC like amumu. Which in turn means that Sona was nerfed hard against aoe mages/cc as a support. **How risky was tagging your allies with your auras?** Fairly risky to Extremely risky depending on if their Top or Mid or Jungle were aoe damage/cc champions. **How often was the risk worth the reward?** The shield might help to tank a little bit of damage from Baron, otherwise I'd rather have the larger passive armor and mr which always works and doesn't wind up getting you killed in the process. **How did you feel about your impact on team fights?** You are basically only there for your ult, and the radius or hit detection seems slightly smaller or off at the edges. I guess lategame your heal might be able to save a low health person if you time it right. Usually lategame people just get blown up though unless they are the tank. **What did you think of Sona's updated audio?** Sona doesn't play music anymore. Other than that I noticed it sounded a little clearer. **What did you think of Sona' update art assets?** I always use arcade Sona and since her particles and auras are gone the skin is no longer unique, in fact with the update base Sona looks better. Someone suggested it earlier in this thread and I think it's a really good idea. Why not rework her E to give her a speed boost but to give allies a mana regen boost she tags with it or some other kind of utility.
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