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: I've argued this before, but yes, this has turned riven out from early combat of any kind, this has changed her from a strong lane bully into a scared little girl for most of the lane. With no natural sustain, and the shields still long enough cd harass is too easy to put on her and keep her out of lane. Especially with the impending nerf to doran's shield because botlane supports taking it as a first item, i'm not seeing the same recovery potential here. I'm looking at a lot of this in worst case scenario match-ups and situations, and the kind of things we see in blind pick. Riven went from being a cautious to play around toplaner to a early victim over night in most situations. Even with my rune and mastery experiments it's very difficult for her to lane, especially with out Q first. The hardest things for her right now, I would say, is hard early poke, she used to be able to deal with things like teemo if you were skilled, as it is now, she can't. She get's zoned out very easily because of this. Forcing Riven to take E at level one is the same as killing her chance at escaping anything from jungle pressure or zoning. This is a bad move, and I hold you personally responsible Minimum since your talk with Xypherous making any of these nerf's seem like a good idea. You talk about EHP but, you are talking about PBE level players who are most certainly not platinium or anything remotely close in skill. You are testing against people who do not necessarily understand her skills or what to do against her. I test with friends who are very familiar with her play and all the different ways I play her. There are somethings she is still extremely good at fighting, she can have impact late game, but she doesn't play like Riven anymore when you do it.
Right, but honestly I attribute this phenomena more to the crippling set of changes currently on *live*. I was more asking for thoughts about the current set. Her hp5 on live is currently pathetic as is, and the shield base value increase does FEEL significant. So in your mind, this second set of changes are unequivocally a nerf?
: Wow! That's a long time. My average is 3 minutes. Lol. I'd rather keep the community small. There's already people posting 20 different threads about the same exact thing. More people would just add to the clutter.
TBH I dunno what's causing it. Sometimes it queue's inside the expect timeframe but others it'll go 40-60 mins
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: Update: Riven's base regeneration is now 2.5 from 5.5 Riven's Valor is now 90/120/150/180/210 from 70/100/130/160/190 Effectively, this means that she regenerates 36 less health per minute - but has a 20 point stronger shield - so two full shields will recoup the effect rather than the **FIVE** previously because I **critically failed** at math. Again, thanks for the feedback - hopefully we can get this pattern to a good spot.
You're a boss Xyph. I'll be sure to test those changes for you asap once they hit the server.
: One issue about Riven, in my opinion, is that we are forced to max her Q first. Exemple: Lee Sin can max his 3 spells depending on the situation. I think that Riven could have something like that, but the scaling or her Q is way too important right now. A change like that would create different Riven playstyle and could be interesting.
Honestly I still max E vs Renekton. She has a little flexibility in her max order just not complete flexibility. Keep in mind a lot of damage comes from her passive so her Q scaling isn't a MUST have if something else will help you survive lane better.
: Awesome - 3 full shields is completely impractical with the new duration. That's great feedback to hear - it means that we're missing the mark on what is practical in reality. Is there a value between her current regeneration and shield value that seems practical? 3 full shields is impractical - but how does 2 full shields sound? EDIT: Sweet - Okay, I'll raise her base HP/5 to 2.5 and try for 15 shield - that'll be 1 and 1/2 shields. When you get a chance with those updates, let me know how that feels! Thanks for the feedback!
GREAT! I'm glad I can actually interact with yall at Riot about these changes here and am happy to help. I'll be on to test them as soon as they go live and I'll post another thread.
Come to think of it, better to err on caution and assume you get 1.5 full shield values worth of mitigation early, because while punishing mistakes in her play is fine there needs to be some room for human error or she wont be playable at all. 1.5-2 full rounds of mitigation. Adjust for that. There is my suggestion.
: You're absolutely correct that no one can avoid every ounce of ranged harass you get thrown at. However, if you simply block 3 full attacks with this shield - you come out ahead in terms of health. You are *healthier* than before - so long as you can mitigate the full damage. I would assume this a nerf to your Riven play. Is the fact 3 shields impractical to pull off in lane? Does the value need to be closer to 2 shield attacks? Is it the fact that you're going to waste the extra shield value a vast majority of the time? I'm all for readjusting the numbers if you feel like the current crossover point is impractical - but I'd need to understand the essential disconnect on regeneration and what the equivalent conversion value to shield is.
3 *full* shields with the new duration IS impractical against anything that's not melee because you need to engage with it, and the viable top roster (Read:Renekton and your other manaless tankmonsters) trash her to hell and back in lane anyway. So basically, you've remeoved her ability to midlane entirely, and her toplane which was already on the losing side of most common matchups is now more skill reliant. I can probably still play her. I'm also a high plat with over a thousand games as her. Nobody in lower elo can even remotely hope to win with her now and I cannot help but feel that is a bad direction for any champion. EDIT: I'd say two full sheilds is probably more reasonable
: You're very upset here - so let's talk through the change a little bit. By lowering a champions initial hp/5 by 4 - she effectively loses ~~24~~ 48 health per minute. This is clearly a huge hit to her laning phase, especially early. Her shield has been increased by 10 points and her shield has a 10 second cooldown. With Rank 1 shield, assuming you can use it fully 3 times a minute - any further uses of this simply nets you upside - assuming you block damage that is actually significant enough to pierce the shield. Riven's durability is meant to be virtual - it's as strong as her opponent's mistakes and as good as her timing in using it. The intent here is to make Riven more like Riven - a character who avoids damage entirely though good play - not regenerate it like every other bruiser in the game. Going the opposite direction (HP/5 + nerfed shield value) - simply makes Riven closer to every other Bruiser in terms of playstyle in lane. What further changes could further push this goal? EDIT: I realize that anyone following this post has now realized that I have made a math error by a factor of 2 or so. This is why you don't work on GP/10 and HP/5 at the same time. :(
Xyperous. She's balanced right now. Her winrtates are demonstrably lower after the live patch, across all elos. She is in no way in need of a futher nerf. NOBODY can flat out avoid every ounce of ranged harass with Rivens shield- not even in high diamond. NOBODY can shield every autoattack the enemy puts on you. Right now, unless you all in constantly from level 1, something the last nerf set all but removed her ability to do, you lose lane by default because you are pushed out of it before you even get your initial combo. So again, I have to ask- why is she in line for a second set of nerfs?
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: Riven's Shield
I'm still able to make good use of it. Doesn't feel too harsh to me but I'd be interested in overall thoughts.
: Renekton and Darius still pose a threat, but I would agree a Full Tank garen isn't something a Riven is going to worry about. I still do not agree however that nerfing to 1.5 is the answer, it's fine at 2.5, but valor is all riven has for side stepping or surviving any major burst. If her shield only lasts 1.5 then you could easily outplay it by holding your burst for that 1.5 then unloading. I do it to Sivir all the time now since the change. We're not talking about a Nocturne shield here, Nocturne can rarely use his shield and it's a bigger cd with a shorter window of absorbtion, but nocturne doesn't have to worry about that since you rarely see a lane nocturne. Riven has to survive a lot longer with the very small shield,The shield as it stands is not even able to block a GP or Yasuo Q crit into mid or later game, and you want to make that window even shorter and less effective on all stages of the game? That's retarded. Don't fuck with a champion that like every snow ball champion is only a threat with a hell of alot of gold. Already you have almost no real choices for rivens build, if you are not getting merc treads, and some of the tankier AD items( Black Cleaver) She dies a hell of a lot faster then anyone else with a similar role. I'm going to be testing some different rune combinations and see how her jungle speed and effectiveness is with the changes, but I am very concerned about her general laning ability.
The thing is that Riven's shield needs that 'hold your burst' counterplay- on her current live iteration she has a very low vulnerability window.
: I mostly agree with everything that is said, however I still feel the Valor uptime nerf is too harsh. A 2.0s uptime or a *scaling* uptime would be even more appropriate I think. As it is, the uptime allows for a high amount of invulnerability versus many, many champions, so it is a good nerf, but I think that it is a bit much. To err on the side of caution, I would rather have just one skill changed per patch. Start with Q (because its damage at level 1 really is quite crazy with how fast you can get it out), and THEN tweak the E. Against smart players who know her damage potential, the extremely short shield uptime forces more obvious usages of the skill, which hurts basically every matchup where highly aggressive harass is going to be traded. Even something as simple as Malphite or Pantheon (not simple lanes actually, but simple compared to how complex Darius/Renekton/Garen become) lane will be changed, as now you are forced to more explicitly choose between using E to close space/zone or absorbing auto/spell harass. In an attempt to decrease faceroll/raise the skillcap, I think it only makes the Riven player's decisions more predictable and options more limited. The overall effect creates more binary play. This is opposed to the Q nerfs which actually target a more defined problem and affect her overall gameplay in a less complex way, as they only adjust damage and the rate at the damage increases. I think that the Q is much less complex than the E change with regard to actual gameplay.
This honestly hasn't been my play experience at all. Despite the nerfs I still feel it is very much the in players hands on whether or not be 'readable'. Renekton; well he's going to get nerfed no doubt somehow so I'm not so worried about that matchup and the principle way to beat him is a reflexive use of E to block his burst damage so it really doesn't change based on E having a shorter uptime. Garen and Darius are both in a faar weaker place than Riven at the moment and in my experience the difficulty of those matchups has been severely overstated- however you're right with the dynamic change vs them given these changes. All I'd ask is that Riot keep an eye on their internal metrics as these changes go on, right now I really don't feel she's in 'too weak' a spot with the current slate.
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Level 30 (PBE)
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