: I like the Sona changes so far.
I like the changes, but I dislike that Sona has to invest very, very heavily into ap now to be any kind of threat. In this current meta, (+Support income+support exp) Sona's gonna have a pretty rough time getting to lvl 16 and investing into medium/high ap at the same time due to the fact that well..she's a support and games tend to be decided these days pretty quickly.
: I'm running out of RP/IP in pbe
...how are you possibly running out of IP when literally everything but runes costs 1 ip.
: Because you don't want to ruin other players' experience. Maybe they do care about winning the game, but if I have 220 ping costantly I can't really help them and I'm just a burden for the rest of the team. Being forced to play for at least 20 minutes with someone that has the reaction time of a 90 year old granny isn't really nice, I guess.
He's not talking about gameplay, he's talking about why do people care so much about *their* rank, not the game, not testing, *their* rank on a server that's sole existence is to be used for TESTING.
: Riot, Please stop disabling all other ques than ranked.
I'm not gonna beat around the bush here. If you play on the PBE only to play Ranked games and not actually TEST things, then you need to get off the PBE and go back to live, the slot you're wasting could go to someone who actually wants to test. You are here to test, not bitch and moan about Ranked.
: if pbe is to only find bugs and not to emanate the live server then there is absolutely no reason for riot to have it up yes finding bugs are fine but if you cant balance the game b4 it hits live then you have no reason for having a test server
: maybe we have tested too much
Riot has explicitly stated that the PBE is not for balancing issues. It is very rare indeed that they heed our warnings.
: > A very weak early game. Yea, no. What she needs are these base AD and per level nerfs reverted, or at least some type of buff to the bonus AD Final Hour gives.
Uh, no. Final Hour is already a super strong Ult as it is, it doesn't need any more buffs.
: Playing Vayne w/ new changes feels like punishment at every stage of the game.
I for am happy with the changes. As a hypercarry, she needs a weak early game. A very weak early game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Metarid,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=B3WuNOOY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-05T16:24:59.929+0000) > > Because it artificially inflates the champ select process. > Given that nobody hits lock in a champ select, that adds to over FIVE MINUTES of sitting around doing nothing. (It is 30 seconds+ to pick your champ, right? I forgot.) Five minutes is not enough, honestly. Successful teams use that time to coordinate and discuss strategy.
Five minutes (at worst) is too fucking long just get into a game. Most pre-made teams use voice chat, and it does not even remotely take five minutes to coordinate or discuss strategy when doing so. They can use out-of game time do to discuss strategies, or hell, they can even do it while the game itself is loading. Five minutes is too long, and champ select should not take five minutes. it really, really fucking shouldn't.
: Meanwhile Yasuo, same goes for him, he will be spammed once this hits live.
As if the windy bastard wasn't spammed enough already...
: [New Draft Mode Feedback] Will not lock in for you if you are hovering over a champion like on Live
Because it artificially inflates the champ select process. Given that nobody hits lock in a champ select, that adds to over FIVE MINUTES of sitting around doing nothing. (It is 30 seconds+ to pick your champ, right? I forgot.)
: Lock In system is not clear
Indeed, all they have to do is make a little notification box that says "Click lock into confirm champion or risk disbanding the game!" when a champion is selected, or something along those lines.
: Your comment doesn't still justify disbandoning everyone because one player selected his champion but did not hit lock. There is something called auto lock at the end of duration. Its simply wasting everyone's time.
The problem is that people pretty much never hit lock in live, which inflate the actual champ select process by at least two minutes in of itself. All riot has to do is make a nice little box that says "Hit Lock to confirm champion or be kicked from queue!" pop up when a champion is selected, boom, ezpz.
Rioter Comments
: Sure, fair point. Hope it will go well and you can achieve a strong balance between "I want to kill this guy because he's a good starting point for my team to get back in the game" and "I NEED to kill him " . Also, did you consider being a bit more agressive on assist reverting death spree? Right now it's still really dangerous to give a kill to someone that's like 0/5 and reset his bounty while you can just have him chill and reset it slowly with assists and not being as much of a burden if he dies again. And finally,, any plan to add something for "assist spree"? I think someone doing 0/0/8 should be as good of a target as someone doing 2/0/0 . Even more if it's soraka. Soraka should make you win the game the instant you kill her. Please do it. Good luck !
They've had Assist streaks for MONTHS now. They are being removed with this change, and ambient/gp/5 items are getting bufffed to compensate
: where did norms go!!!???
Frankly I don't see how the ban phase is "built for trolls".
: It's not that ridiculous, stop QQing. Trynd has 30% crit if he remains at full Fury, which he shouldn't if you harass him properly, and Yasuo needs to buy crit and his AD with Shiv alone is pathetic. 30 HP on a 200 crit is not that terrible. Pick a damaging mastery against them, it'll do much more damage than they heal for.
30 hp every two seconds adds up, and considering that they both usually got some form of heavy ad, that heal quickly becomes too strong. Especially when mixed with Death's Dance and Phantom Dancer.
: that is if you have a champ with an form of good cc
Like Ryze. or Vi, or Malphite
: Kha Zix Jungle might be a no go next season
Knockback on graves applies to minions only. Or at least, it's supposed to only apply to minions.
: Why not Increase the Limit on Support Gold Income Items to 2 Instead of 1?
Or better yet, lower the cost of T3 Gold income items, and upgrade sightstones with that and retain all the T3 income stats.
: Despite the face that it may be _useful_ for non-jungle champions, the point of the preseason changes are to refine and re-work the game. So, despite some non-jungle champions grabbing a {{item:3713}} sometimes (myself included), it's specifically a _jungle_ item and it falls under the changes they're making because of that. I believe the meta they're shooting for with junglers this time around is more of a mid-to-late game power spike. {{item:3713}} gives a bit more ganking power and clear speed in the early game, so the change makes sense to me.
Outside of the fact that Junglers, such as Zac, who need the boost to their clear speed and sustain are going to be literally unplayable without RT. So much for Strategic diversity, tank junglers with poor clear speeds are going to be useless.
: By the title, I expected to see a qq thread. But after reading it, I think you took your time to analyse a lot of things, and I seem to agree with most of what you say. **1) tier 1 items, and starting items in general:** - machete looks ok for AA based/AD champions, but they will run out of mana quickly - hunter's talisman solves this mana problem, but the hp regen it gives is really weak -> it's a choice between hp and mana, those who need both are doomed. - refillable potion: gives you 2*100hp on 1st clear, with the option to get the upgrade afterwards. - hp potion: 3*150hp, need to buy new ones, or get refil pot later on. -> Champions who need to get hunter's potion to even clear somewhat efficiently, wont be able to start refil pot because they'd have to back after their 2nd camp to upgrade it, losing a lot of momentum. - start with upgraded hunter's potion: gives you good sustain, but you need jungle item to get full xp from jungle monsters, might **2) removing trailblazer:** -The hp and mana "regen" is now packed in the hunter's potion, but losing the stun and aoe clear will hurt certain junglers quitte hard. If the jungle (item) changes from pre-s5 made a lot of (off-meta) junglers almost unplayable, then the removal of this item puts the final nail in their coffin. - I'm aware this is the most used enchantment, but I don't think it's because it's better than the others: you clearly trade (early) combat power for farming speed and sustain. It also is a "safe" option for people who were not familiar with (the clears of) their champ. -There are also several meta (tank) junglers who need this to make up for their lack of damage and/or sustain. **3) adding tracker's knife:** - If they added this item during s5, I'd say it was a valid option for counterjunglers and control junglers. - But now, with green wards being removed, I feel like it outclasses both other enchantment by a huge margin: **a)** most junglers who get stalkers for ganking, or skirmishers for dueling, already have a skillset which makes them able to do so. Not having a combat smite upgrade won't hurt them too much. **b)** if a jungler wants to be able to place wards (which he should do if he likes winning), he has 3 choice: get yellow trinket, but lose ganking and ambushing power from sweeper; get sightstone, but since you kinda need this early to get a lot of use out of it, it slows down your core build by quitte a bit, leaving you dealing no damage, or being squishy. 3rd option is to get tracker's knife, the only thing you lose is a combat smite, but as said in "a)", this doesn't cause a real problem for most champs. - I can't think of much cases/champions where getting tracker's is sub-optimal (only ones being Eve, and maybe Nunu) **4) warrior, and other enchantments:** - You talked about making a warding enchantment, instead of tracker's active wards. I had never thought about this, but I have to say it sounds like a good idea. Make sighstone and tier 2 jungle item and a ruby crystal build into an enchantment for "support" junglers, giving it the active and passive effects of a ruby sightstone, but with less hp (balance hp stat to be equally gold efficient to other enchantents). - Making tiamat build into warrior: I don't play much junglers who build warrior or hydra, but I think it's a good idea, although it needs to be balanced carefully: it'd give no cdr, and limited ad, also not sure about cleave passive, and how strong it can be. It should help clear the jungle, as cinderhulk and runeglaive aoe do, but maybe it's enough to have the aoe active with AA reset, and passive makes it op. - Something else I found by looking up the jungle enchantments (in the item sets menu): not only did they get more espensive, their cost isn't equal anymore: devourer costs 2450g, warrior and cinderhulk 2625g and runeglaive 2675g. That 50g isn't significant, but why is devourer so much (200g! on a first item is huge) cheaper. Although runeglaive or warrior give a bigger spike in terms of immediate, raw power, completing devourer over having tier 2 and one ~400g component still wins. - the tooltip of devourer in item sets says it gives +1 magic damage /stack, did it get buffed, or is the tooltip not upgraded yet? **5) masteries:** - While these keystone masteries don't help with jungl clears, most of them are meant to help in mid-lategame fights, or in small skirmishes (which will happen more often due to rift herald). - making this effects work on jungle monsters, even if only the large ones, it seems too strong. **6) gold income and item prices:** - more starting gold (3 pots instead of 2 means 1 or 2 etxra camps, not taking change of starting items sustain into account), ambient gold, and more gold for killing a monsters w/o jungle item: If you started with one of the jungle items, it takes 700g to get the tier 2, even if you want some potions (and a pink ward) on first back aswell, the increased gold generation will make this possible for most junglers with decent clears. - weaker early junglers will need to go back earlier, and get the other jungle item (little more sustain, but more xp), or upgrade thier refil potion (but also see what I said in 1). so far so good, but what after having tier 2 jungle item? - you still have the same gold income as before buying it. Compared to s5, large monster give more gold, but not as much more as the 30g you lose from tier 2 change. Even when counting ambient gold too, the gpm is still going to be lower in s6 than in s5. And almost all items cost more gold, and/or give less stats. - towers getting more flat hp, but losing all arm and mr, combined with rift herald buff, will make them go down much easier. This brings some more gold into the game, but it also makes the games shorter. This makes scaling champions weakers, they were already weakened by the jungle item changes.
So what you're saying is Lee Sin is going to become the permanent king of the jungle again. Great.
: Um, its not weaker against him than it is on live. Or I should say, Last whisper plus a BF is more effective than the LW on live, for the equivalent amount of gold. (Adjusting for the increase in gold income)
Bonus armor pen requires huge amounts of enemy armor in order to beat total armor pen. Technically, it *is* weaker because live LW cuts into both his bonus armor and his 16 base. Whereas the new LW only cuts into his bonus.
: Warlord's bloodlust questions
For point #2, I think it applies to both. Go play yasuo and find out.
: New Last Whisper's passive [Lord Dominik | Mortal Reminder] and Thresh
Meh, total armor pen will almost always be more effective then bonus ever will be. Thresh will be just fine.
: Should rename-- Tryndamere: the bandit king
I think Tryndamere: The Cowardly Barbarian would work better.
: What doesn't make sense to you? Seems fine to me, they gave 2 wards to everyone starting out, so the amount of wards that youre gonna see will be about the same. Sightstones still exist, so supports/junglers will be unchanged. They just made it easier for other people on the team to help out. Seems like a buff to the vision game. Pinks are cheaper, the pink on trinket wasn't very good anyways, now you can have 2 wards and a pink very easily.
What wasn't good about the pink on trinket? I mean, if functioned exactly like a Vision ward does now, so? And what about late game? How are we gonna fight stealth if we can't place pinks down?
: It feels like you are just trying to argue with me about having it not have better wording in the tooltip
Probably. I like arguing. Also I am hilariously sleep deprived.
: Caitlyn's Yordle Snap trap
It also apparently immobilizes the target for 90 seconds, too~ I fucking died laughing when I read her tooltip for the first time.
: I kind of figured what it was - but it still needs clarity- stating how it works and its cap
Considering that there are a total of five different champions per team (replace unique with different and presto, it makes sense) one can easily infer that it caps at five.
: Reword Bounty Hunter mastery show players know what it does
EG: killing one champ on the enemy team yields 1%. Killing a different one bumps it up to 2%. Killing another one that is not the prior two bumps it to 3%, so on so forth, up to 5% bonus damage. Simple enough to understand, when you think about it.
: Last Whisper is way too gold efficient
To be fair, Vayne's already like that because y'know, percent Max health true damage...which is literally unmitigatable.
: As a support main who loves playing healers in games
Prepare for nerfs. Riot hates healbots. With. A. Passion. Except Nami apparenty. Nami's W heal hasn't been altered in eons.
: Quick question about Windspeaker's Blessing
It is *technically* a spell shield, however it's also a shield. So yes, it should work.
: Anti-Stealth Ideas
The funny thing is, I actually figured you'd post a thread in response to mine. Still, it's nice to see that I at least managed to bring some awareness to the current situation. I mean, if Scanner kept it's live functionality, with the execution/range of the PBE version, I think it'd be pretty k. Actually, upon rereading the post, your's is actually pretty solid idea.
: There really should be better ways to deal with stealth. However, I'm going to advocate against your idea for a dedicated-pink-ward-slot, because that forces any champ with stealth as a major mechanic into irrelevance. With a dedicated slot, everyone will be able to place them, any time they have 100 gold, and end-game there will be at least 5 per team. I would support other anti-stealth measures, but not a dedicated slot.
Well, 5 pink wards isn't anywhere near enough to cover every major angle of approach. Hell, we could even make it so the slot becomes available, say, at thirty minutes, when inventory space becomes cramped and there's no room for pink wards.
: Mastery Tier Indicator?
Actually that's a killstreak indicator.
: i just realised the terror {{champion:17}} will cause with no actual way to take out the minefield safely...
I mean, sweeper lens still works on invisible traps and the like. It won't work on champions, though. Being able to put pinks down in key locations is helpful, and often times talons use their ults to try and escape. Being able to put a pink down on demand is useful, the same applies to shaco. Pinks are too valuable to not have their own slot.
: {{summoner:2}} {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:3}} {{summoner:2}}
Because there' a guaranteed chance we'll see rengar ult from half way down river with clairvoyance. And there's totally enough reaction time to exhaust him before he completely erases a squishy.
: good now i can play without one of my core abilities being completely nullified in the late game. position better but yeah i think we should at least get some sort of reveal upgrade on a support item
Need I pull up an obligatory video of rengar deleting a squishy even as said squishy is surrounded by his team?
Rioter Comments
: I know exactly what It is, I'm just saying reloading is functionally equivalent to the pause between animation canceled auto attacks (the period you are moving between auto attacks while you orbwalk), and graves' auto animation is faster than any other ADC once he has some AS, so he needs to spend a lower % of his time standing still for the auto attack animation, so he's pretty good at kiting and orbwalking. Graves kiting patter is (Shoot - short walk - Shoot - long walk while reloading), rather than (Shoot - medium walk - Shoot - medium walk) like every other ADC, and his is equivalent if not superior for kiting.
The fact that he has to stop auto attacking at all, unless the reload is lightning fast, makes it inferior to any other adc's ability to orbwalk. Since they can keep up a much faster stream of DPS than Graves can now, unless the reload time is <1 second long between shells. And I don't know about you, but most other adcs cross a very minute distance between autoattacks before they can attack again. This isn't a matter of animation times or distance covered, this is about Graves' ability to keep doing it reliably, rather then getting off 1-2 aa's and losing his ability to fight back with aa's until he's reloaded.
: Orbwalking is moving during cool down between auto-attacks. Its literally moving when you can't attack, and grave's has a larger percentage of time that he can't attack than most other ADCs, thusly orbwalking is more effective on him.
This is what I'm referring to. https://youtu.be/GcduO2GPWtk?t=2m4s Graves cannot do this reliably because, as I've stated time and time again...HE CANNOT EVEN BASIC ATTACK WITHOUT AMMUNITION LOADED. Meaning while other adcs can keep up a steady stream of damage, Graves just gets to walk around and throw his spells out because, and I cannot stress this enough, GRAVES CANNOT ATTACK WITHOUT AMMUNITION LOADED.
: The new Graves is everything I could ever want in an ADC
Except the fact he loses any semblence of orbwalking abilities, I can agree.
: I don't get what you are saying. He'll be able to orbwalk much better than your typical ADC, as a lower % of his time is spent with stationary auto attack animations.
He CANNOT ATTACK WITHOUT AMMUNITION. Meaning he only gets two shots off, and then has to wait for a time before he can attack. It's stated right in the OP. How can you orbwalk if you can't even attack.
: I'm assuming he can reload while moving - because his actual auto attacks are much faster than typical, he'd actually be better at kiting than most. He'd blast two shells real quick, kite backwards while reloading, blast twice more, rinse wash repeat.
But will he be able to reload fast enough to keep orbwalk away, is the problem. There are *tons* of champion that can close gaps really fast, Zed, Riven, Lee Sin, to name a few. With his gutted AA range, he has to put himself in the danger zone to deal damage, and if he cant keep aaing long enough to orbwalk, he'd be pretty much boned.
: Here you go: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Bo7hxGEj-preseason-6-items-found-in-match-history
: Graves Gameplay Update Feedback
One of the biggest flaws I see with this, is that unless his reload time can get to about a half second per shell, he will be virtually unable to kite, a skill that is pretty much mandatory on any adc. While these changes *do* double down on the "I have a shotgun, get too close and you'll be swiss cheese" fantasy, in practicality, he would need either super low cooldown on his E, or really fast reload times in order to ensure his ability to deal with champions who can chase him down .
: 8/24 Skarner Feedback
Frankly, that damn scorpion needs to slow the fuck down. He's too damn fast, yo.
: I could care less if they play poorly. What I can't stand is hearing typical bronze insults all game long for no reason whatsoever. The toxicity on PBE is the worst I've ever seen on League. One has to wonder how half of them passed the requirements to create a PBE account.
This. Lost count of how many times I've said "This is the PBE, the outcome of matches here literally mean nothing, the sole reason were here is to test the content Riot creates." at some toxic fool threatening to leave cuz a match is going poorly.
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Metarid

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