Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Why does this work when its not a rune for her.
Honestly, that damage seems about right. A good support that is sitting in lane and sticking to their farming ADC as well as in the team fights is going to naturally get stacks. If you had a 3 hit combo and took electrocute, you would be doing the same or more damage. A big part of why you are seeing such good KDA and generally getting a lot of kills has FAR more to do with the quality of the players you are facing. Virtually every game I'm in on the PBE right is with a team filled with assassin and other squishy damage dealers. Frequently, the team comp would be considered super troll (Zed support... really?). Further, the quality of the players on the PBE is honestly been a big influx of low elo players and trolls. The end result is that pretty much any person who is a good player, and good with their champ is racking up the kills. To take it a step further, Leona is super tanky, and has always been somewhat bursty; combined with facing a bunch of squishy players who don't know what they are doing ... do you really wonder why? I'd be far more interested in seeing the team comps of your team vs their team, as well as the stats of how your team performed vs theirs (including the damage on champions by yourself in relationship to your team as well as the same for their team.
: Actually the nerfs to the rate at which you get stacks simply makes you more likely to 'famine' than you are to 'feast' the scaling is still garbage, half that of electrocute in fact so if you are relying on your items you are once again better off with electrocute. 1 soul is worth 1 damage, just as it has always been that hasnt changed. Being forced out of lane during a cannon wave does not mean you played poorly, you may have just won a fight against your enemy laner, you may have even killed them, but if you are left at 100 hp with no summoners, is it smart to stay and risk being killed by the JG? no of course not, you are forced to abandon your stacks in favor of not risking a death, you played well, you got a kill, you lived, but you are still going to lose out on stacks because a cannon wave happened to spawn when your fight ended. The only champs that dont have reliable or easy to use 3 hit combos are very, very few, amounting to basically, gangplank, jhin, zilean and a couple supports. A cannon wave is 8 souls, a single champ is 6, relying on team fights to gain souls is risky, I am garunteed a good amount of souls if I focus on nothing but split pushing/ slow pushing or even freezing a wave and letting the cannons come to me, especially after 20 minutes and even more so after 35 mins where you get a cannon every single wave. In a team fight you can get souls from your own team dying, but if your own team is dying then being in a position where you can pick up their soul probably means you are going to die too, and picking up the soul of a enemy that has died required you to be in a position to do so, if you are not a champion that can be in the middle of a fight than you are not likely going to be getting very many souls in a team fight, and if you are actually focused on winning the team fight, often these souls will dissapear before you have a reasonable chance to pick them up. There are a couple champions that ARE able to be in the middle of a fight and can also use DH, such as irelia or wukong, but these are again very few, and they also have a reliable 3 hit combo so they could use electrocute to reduce the risk of 'famine'
I agree that the current tuning of DH is over the top. I disagree with the famine thing in relationship to DH as a self contained idea. Even severely under-farmed, you will do 3/4th the damage of the standard farmed people. The gain from simply farming is not that great over getting the souls with the safety of 4 other people in the lane with the potential to get a good pick. Put a different way: sure team fighting is riskier, but that holds true regardless of DH; how is that different from the decision of whether to stay in lane farming or split pushing for the experience and gold to try to get ahead (a much greater boon than DH), than risking a team fight? Yes, there are some people who try to farm for 40 minutes so they can then come and "dominate" the game, but they generally learn pretty quick that it usually doesn't work. Regardless, the argument doesn't really hold water, as a fairly strong incentive (based on the safety argument) exists to avoid helping the team, and we don't have issues with it right now. For the most part, I feel like your arguments have stepped back into the realm of "why you would not want to take Dark Harvest over Electrocute", but no longer a good reason to remove it. I think there is a good argument to revert some of the adjustments on DH (in particular, lower the soul count to extended charge from 150 to something less), but I see usefulness in DH over a 3 hit combo burst option (even if it does less). Oh, my comment about stacks being less effective was in relationship to stacking rate.
: Just personal experience, Ive got over 150 games on the pbe since the new runes have released, and since the nerfs the amount of stacks per game has gone down a lot, and it makes sense, on average 300ish stacks by 30 mins was normal, and you can look in other threads about DH to see thats what other people where getting before the nerfs as well. If you got 10 stacks per cannon wave before, and cannon waves come every 1.5 minutes until 20 mins where they start to come ever 1 minute, thats 10 stacks every 1.5 mins so 120 (12 waves that have a cannon) stacks by 20 mins, and then 220 stacks by 30 mins and this is of course if you get every single cannon wave, but also if no kills happen near you at all and you dont take any jungle monsters. Remember that you get stacks even if you dont get an assist or if one of your allies dies, so in bot lane if your sup is feeding, thats still 10 stacks you get. 300 stacks was pretty easy and normal to get in a 30 min game. Now cannon minions are worth 1 less, or a total of 2 less per cannon wave already thats a max of 96, already almost 40 less, and by 30 mins thats 176 stacks also champ deaths are only worth 6 now instead of 10 that means that if you where around 8 people that died before, and where able to pick up their souls, those 80 souls have become only 48 so 224 total by 30 mins IF you have been there for every single cannon wave. On top of that at 700 AP or 380 AD (a reasonable amount of an assassin that is meant to have DH) it would take 440 souls for DH to do the same damage as electrocute now. This is fine of course, since DH doesnt have a CD and you just have to pick up another soul, but to do even half the damage of electrocute you need at least 220 souls, which you are barely getting now, so you have to proc DH 3 times to finaly do more than electrocute at 30 mins. Before 30 mins and the earlier in the game you go, the worse DH is compared to electrocute, at the early mid game it takes 4-5 procs of DH to equal 1 electrocute, so you spend a ton of time trying to farm up stacks for barely any pay off.
Good reasoning for them to slightly buff DH.
: The problem is, is starting a team fight, or getting engaged on and having a team fight forced, when you have no stack ready means that you will be missing out on about 400-600 damage in the later game. You will be relying on your team getting a kill, AND being in a position to pick up that soul before you can deal your damage. On the other hand electrocute ONLY needs to hit someone 3 times, there almost no champs that dont have a combo that hits someone at least 3 times, so their damage is up and ready to go. Also you need at least 440 stacks of DH for it to do as much damage as electrocute (electrocute has a CD DH doesnt this is fair) but the average amount of stacks you get is only about 200 so DH on average does about half the damage of electrocute by end game, and as little as 1/4th in the early mid game, you have to proc it literally 4 times in order for it to equal electrocutes damage, and you have to proc it at least twice in the late game for it to equal out. The snowball potential is high with dark harvest but thats part of its problem like I said, its feast or feed, which is a bad gameplay mechanic, its why the got rid of feral flare, its why they got rid of devourer, and feast or feed is why the reworked fiora even though no one expected that rework. Yet they keep trying to bring it in and they should know by now, its bad for the game.
I'm having some issues with your logic. I fully understand your concern and reference to Feral Flare and Devourer, however, with the way Dark Harvest is right now, it doesn't present the same problems recreated by those former things. Let me explain. Those former things were problematic for all the reasons you have listed, but was also problematic because it created a situation where a stacked champion was SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than every other champion on the team (to the point of absurdity). You were HIGHLY incentivised to farm for 30 minutes. This was made even more problematic by the fact that most people will play what they perceive as "the most powerful" thing. Now enter DH. DH as it is currently laid out is not in anyway OP. As you have already pointed out, often Electrocute will out perform DH (in my personal testing, I found that they both resulted in similar bonus damage by the end of the game, with Electrocute giving MUCH better damage until I would reach 150 stacks -- approx 25 minutes into game as JG). As such, what is the incentive to take DH of Electrocute? -- Let's come back to that. With DH, you DON'T actually have the issues you have talked about (causing a player to not help the team and the team revolving around the DH player). Unlike similar mechanics, you don't actually need to kill the minion to get the stack. So,... as JG, you get more stacks by ganking and participating in a kill (regardless of if you even get an assist, much less a kill), you also get more stacks from canon minions than JG camps -- you are LITERALLY incentivised to help the team. As a laner taking DH, there is ZERO downside to participating in team fights as far as DH is concerned, and ONLY upsides. Unless the fight is taking place in the JG, you will still get stacks from canon minions (regardless of how they die) AND will also get stacks from Champion deaths (even if it is your own team!). Essentially, anti-team effect of previous similar mechanics are not a problem with DH -- there is no incentive or advantage to solo farm for 30 minutes to get stacks, nor is DH even remotely powerful enough to play "protect the DH player". In fact, there are PLENTY of options in runes are just as powerful, or more powerful -- which makes the DH player nothing special over any other equally skilled player with different runes. As to address your Feast or Famine concern: that was more of a concern before the current iteration of DH. The current iteration is getting more percentage damage from AP / AD than before, with stack effectiveness having been reduced. The effect is that you are not as far behind with reduced stacks, and not as far ahead with above average stacks. Getting behind to begin with is also mitigated quite a bit by the stack mechanic itself -- where you don't actually need to get the kill, just be in proximity. Basically, you can have crap CS, and still not get very behind the curve. You mentioned the idea of "luck" playing a role, but honestly, that isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Specifically, you mentioned things like being forced out of lane and missing a canon minion wave; how is that any different than good game play vs bad? A person with near perfect CS is very likely going to have a MUCH bigger advantage than someone with mediocre CS due to the advantage of gold and items. A good player is very aware of missing waves and CS, and will purposefully force lessor opponents to miss waves and CS (particularly canon waves), while at the same time mitigating their loss of the same. How is this not also a Feast or Famine mechanic? Should we do away with CS and just give everyone the same gold rate??? Of course not -- this is a key game skill; DH is no different. HOWEVER, due to how DH works, even someone VERY behind in stacks will still do at least 3/4th the damage as the average -- almost completely eliminating Feast or Famine. So, why take DH? Why have it at all when you can get more reliable and generally better burst from Electrocute? Well, first, some burst champions don't have reliable or easy to land 3 hit combo's. For some people though, they want to front load the damage on a single shot. Some champions are difficult to lock down, and being able to land a 3 shot combo is difficult to nigh impossible. For some champions, if you can't burst them down to the point that they try to flee (or simply killed) from the get go, they will either get away OR more often, turn around, CC you - breaking the combo, and then kill you or simply have eliminated your ability to get that additional burst damage. This becomes even more of a thing in team fights. Some burst champions have a difficult time being in any way useful in team fights. Sticking around in a team fight long enough to even get off their 3 combo burst (without somehow not being CC'd mid way) is difficult; with the damage front loaded to a single hit, they are able to be more useful. Lastly, I want to address the idea that DH allows for people to be deleted. Since the toning down of DH, I've not seen a person deleted that would not have already been deleted if Electrocute was being used (or even a completely different rune or no rune). The biggest problem was Duskblade combined with DH on high single shot burst poke champs like EZ and Jhin. Personally, I think Duskblade should be made Melee only (which would solve a lot of problems), but that is a different discussion.
: Just tried a game as Hecarim Jungle with this keystone. Was flamed by my bot lane (who were a combined like 1/9) for not ganking enough and stealing the kills when I did gank. They must have been bronzies so don't take it at face value (they were losing to a Twisted Fate ADC, and I got a double kill on bot lane in the first 6 minutes of the game...) but I digress. On top of that my mid laner dc'd at level 9 and never reconnected. Our top laner was a Katarina, but she did quite well. So to recap - a Katarina top lane, a disconnected mid laner, and a feeding bot lane. I finished with 23 kills and we won 4v5. I won several 1v3's in the late game, and had over 250 bonus damage per dark harvest proc. The actual win happened because they tried to come at our base as 5, and Katarina backdoored their entire base while bot lane and I defended 3v5 and aced them so we could go join kata... So team rages at me for not helping them, I get 23 kills, and we win a 4v5. Yup - the keystone is definitely broken.
Sorry, that was not a problem of a rune, but a problem of noob players. As is pointed out, elsewhere in this thread, had you been using Electrocute, you would have done more burst damage. You pulled that off solely because you are a much better player than the people you were in game with.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mesreth,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=b6GNBecV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-31T22:28:46.373+0000) > > I think the scope of most the people here is very narrow. In particular, you are thinking about laners and not junglers. The reason the nerf seems so strong is the fact that the stack rate was reduced (value of targets for souls) AND the move from 100 to 150 for the extended charge time. > > The base argument presented here is that only a minimal amount of additional time is needed for the extended charge time, indicating that 20 secs is generally more than long enough to use it and the extended rate is really only to facilitate team fights. For a jungler, 20 secs is RARELY enough time to utilize DH as you will spend at least that getting to the lane and setting up the gank. Laners at least have a reasonable amount of time to utilize the DH for poke. > > Personally, I think the 150 stack for extended charge should be reduces back to 100, or 125 at least. A different option would be to leave it as is, but increase the base time to 30 secs so the rune is actually useful for junglers and for many assassins. > > As to the idea of a cooldown.... that is ridiculous. First, there are a handful of champions that get a reset from killing a champion, and it is fine. For most champions though, the cooldowns on their abilities provide the cooldown restrictions needed. As it stands, an assassin usually has to use a full combo in order to kill someone, even with the DH unless the have a VERY large lead. Even then, there are plenty of ways to mitigate it. i agree with some points but not with the last part, one thing is a champion that got some sort of reset on their abilities, it is part of their kit and their own unique strenght but when you do that to a rune that every champion that have an empowered autoattack skill be able to oneshot and get a free reset for 300s is way different, it is basically saying "hey you now all the new runes that we've made? well fuck that just pick DH and oneshot everybody"
I could be convinced, but I just haven't seen it as a problem, particularly after the adjustments then made.
: which champs, which are no adcs, have a only 1-2 hitcombo???? or cant benefit of 3 attcks/abilitys?
Gangplank is one of those. There are others. Zilean for instance (though we rarely see him outside of the support role anymore). Mord is another that comes to mind. If I took the time to think about it, I'd think of more.
Rioter Comments
: Dark Harvest Balance Changes Ideas
I think the scope of most the people here is very narrow. In particular, you are thinking about laners and not junglers. The reason the nerf seems so strong is the fact that the stack rate was reduced (value of targets for souls) AND the move from 100 to 150 for the extended charge time. The base argument presented here is that only a minimal amount of additional time is needed for the extended charge time, indicating that 20 secs is generally more than long enough to use it and the extended rate is really only to facilitate team fights. For a jungler, 20 secs is RARELY enough time to utilize DH as you will spend at least that getting to the lane and setting up the gank. Laners at least have a reasonable amount of time to utilize the DH for poke. Personally, I think the 150 stack for extended charge should be reduces back to 100, or 125 at least. A different option would be to leave it as is, but increase the base time to 30 secs so the rune is actually useful for junglers and for many assassins. As to the idea of a cooldown.... that is ridiculous. First, there are a handful of champions that get a reset from killing a champion, and it is fine. For most champions though, the cooldowns on their abilities provide the cooldown restrictions needed. As it stands, an assassin usually has to use a full combo in order to kill someone, even with the DH unless the have a VERY large lead. Even then, there are plenty of ways to mitigate it.
: dark harvest nerf
The Dark Harvest adjustments were a little over the top. The biggest impact though, is actually the increase from 100 to 150 souls for the extended time of charge. This change significantly hurt the usefulness of Dark Harvest, particularly for JG champions. There are a number of champions that don't really have "3 hit" combos, but are also not auto attack champs. Those champs that like to build a burst style champion can't really benefit from the other burst runes due to the "3 hit combo" thing. These types of champs frequently aren't in a position to use that burst within 20 secs of getting a charge (which is fine for early game), but pushing it back to 150 souls while at the same time reducing the rate at which you can farm souls was a "double whammy". So now, you are seeing far less damage. JG champs hurt even more as they generally can't get an appropriate gank within 20 secs of getting a charge. The move pushes the usefulness of Dark Harvest to after the laning phase -- at which point it finally starts to be worth taking, but you are further behind because you spend the first 2/3's to 3/4's of the game having a Keystone that you might as well have not taken. I would suggest to try leaving the stack rate the same as it currently is (the new reduced soul rate), but revert the extended charge time from 150 to 100.
: Evelynn (and assassins) too strong?
I respectfully disagree. With the new runes, Evelynn is capable of doing a lot of damage, but that is pretty much true of most the assassins AND also true on the live servers. Evelynn is still suffering the exact same problems as live server. If she is ahead, yeah she can delete someone who is out solo, but she is completely useless otherwise. She can't even take out the back line b/c the charm takes WAY too long to use. All they have to do is stay near a teammate and Evelynn get deleted. Further, if they simply move away, you will never land anything. I believe that W needs to scale down on how long you have to wait to land a hit for the charm. I also think the E range needs a slight increase OR the invis detection needs to be reduced. I don't think all these things are needed, but one of them is.

Mesreth

Level 54 (PBE)
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