: > [{quoted}](name=Matchuuu,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Xa76vyBQ,comment-id=000400000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-21T01:38:06.449+0000) > > I really don't think you understand. They changed her scalings with this update as well. They didn't just make these changes without looking at her scaling. Her q got a damage increase and a significant ap ratio increase. And her E still does great burst damage when poisoned while allowing her to safely farm in lane. All while keeping the same and even getting More utility. Please at least look at the full changes before you start arguing how "Clunky" they make her or how you don't like the changes. One who are you responding to? Two, clunky usually refers to how something feels rather than its performance, in this case most people agree that hes Q and E are less smooth with longer cast times, and how awkward her W is to use due to the fixed cast distance Three her new E does less than half the dps of the old one; 45% of your ap every .9 secs isnt that good at all
Was responding to LOLMART. I understand what clunky means, but the person wasn't refering to her abilities as clunky they were refering to not being able to buy boots and being given an open item slot as clunky. Which Has no relevance because her movement speed isn't affected and she is given an oppotunity to have more power from a full item. They had no input on her Q or E which i do agree felt clunky because they were different from live because of cast times and such, but they were strickly refering to the boot situation. We already know that her E was going to have a damage reduction but it's not like it was completely removed. Damage was transfered to her Q which does a load of damage again while still opening up possibilites for E spams and burst.
: I don't think you seem to understand. They completely GUTTED her AP ratios last year. The compensation was the massive passive they added to aid her late game power spike. Now that her passive only gives move speed, her damage is going to pale in comparison to what it was before. Even with 6 of the best AP items in the game, she will still only do just as much damage as the other Super AP carrys in the game like Veigar.
I really don't think you understand. They changed her scalings with this update as well. They didn't just make these changes without looking at her scaling. Her q got a damage increase and a significant ap ratio increase. And her E still does great burst damage when poisoned while allowing her to safely farm in lane. All while keeping the same and even getting More utility. Please at least look at the full changes before you start arguing how "Clunky" they make her or how you don't like the changes.
: I'm sorry but I don't see the "bonus" in this kit anywhere. It's like the polar opposite of Viktor, You get an extra item slot, but can't build certain items. Seems clunky and will be very frustrating knowing that an item out there exists that fits what you need in your build, but you can't access it.
How is that in any way clunky? People are just throwing that word into a sentence to try and show their distaste when is has no real relevance, but beside that the passive opens up a lot of opportunities for Cass. You're able to get Magic pen from other items, not to mention it provides you an open slot for either an extra defensive item or offensive item allowing you to think what item is better in your current situation. Considering how you don't lose movement speed but can still get Magic pen as well as health, and/or ap. Not to mention you can finish a complete item instead of investing your gold in boots allowing her to reach a power spike sooner.
: Well okay... you could argue that about every champ in the MYUM. Brand, Malzahar, Vel'Koz, Vladimir, Zyra all do high dps mages and all are forced to kite around incoming threats and they literally ALL have anti-mobility elements in their kit. It seems like the same problems are going to arise with the previous rework. Her champion formula is that of pre-rework poppy (bad early game, bad midgame, stupidly broken lategame)
In all fairness Cass has a much greater access to constant DPS compared to the others. Poison always ticking away with E being less than a second CD and she isn't restricted by being in a certain zone or hitting a poison target to have a low CD. Zyra is a control mage that forces movement, Brand is a combo mage, Vlad is the sustain mage, Vel koz is the true damage mage. She is the only mage in the update that has all 4 of her abilities brings utility. Providing her with the means to kite properly making her the kiting mage.
: MYMU - Zyra discussion
Will she be getting a range indicator back on her plants AA range? Or was it too clustered with the amount of plants possible
: > [{quoted}](name=Lachdonon,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=0062000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-08T19:17:15.895+0000) > > Alright you got me there its possibly worth it to keep strut going but that's only a minuscule upgrade at best and very situational and is still only worth it with probably 4 levels in W otherwise its still not worth the dps loss from autoing something else unless you can Q from dragon to scuttle crab First, i'd like to point out that Maxing W or Slitting between Q and W is the far better way to go on the current PBE, as the Damage from Q is substantial enough without much investment, while W is not unless maxed, but id very effective once done. By maxing Q, you are giving yourself maybe 80 more damage, but maxing W gives you 120 attack speed that keeps going on LoveTap. If you are maxing Q on New MF, you are doing it wrong =P. The upfront damage from Q isn't as useful as the DPS from W. Q does its job with just 1 or 2 points.
There isn't just one way to play a champ. Maxing skill order really depends on the situation you're in. If I'm against a Cait, Q max is important so you can poke because you won't really be able to win trades against her. Same goes for champs like Ashe. Varus. Especially against aggressive supports like Thresh, Leona and Nami. Q provides safety while W is riskier to max in those situations. Very similar to the discussion of whether live MF should max E second or W second. It all depends on the situation.
: Well she is way more complex now, but Imo she will also be way stronger when mastered
Regardless of how well a person can master her, she will always be limited because she doesn't have the abilities out side of Q to make love tap work to the extent they intend it for. A champion that this passive would work well on would be someone like Lucian who can forcibly put someone within his range and then dash out to switch targets and do so continuously to maximize their Damage output. In MF's case if only a single person approaches you, you've automatically lost a large portion of your damage and have lost any possible way to outplay someone. There is very little you can do once someone walks out of her range and she can't manipulate/force her passive to work unless there are 2 things around her. It may be considered a weakness but she already has a well defined weakness of being immobile why does she need another?
: Hey guys, Thanks for continuing to post - I've been trying my best to keep up with all the info. I'm seeing a few patterns in the feedback and I would like to address them and talk to you guys about the next steps forward. **1. Bullet Time is almost certainly buffed at every point in the game (especially late game with items)** Seen some posts saying the Bullet Time changes aren't a substantial buff, but mathematically that is pretty untrue. The 1 place where some weirdness might occur is at level 6 because of the lack of a separate base damage (which is somewhat deceptive because R now scales with Total AD - there is an actual base damage essentially). **2. Weaknesses in MF's Kit** Want to make it clear that we have no intent to remove intended weaknesses from MF's kit. She is intended to be immobile once jumped on and is supposed to make hard decisions on when she has time and space to sit still and channel R. As far as her dueling potential goes, yes MF will be a worse duelist in a brute force scenario, but she should absolutely dominate in other ones. The base AD changes are certainly harsh, but it feels like the power of Love Tap and its interaction with the W active are being vastly underestimated. Overall, we are not observing MF to be underperforming both internally and on PBE. **3. Love Tap is not rewarding enough to use** This one is being heard loud and clear. This doesn't mean we're removing Love Tap, would like to explore making it more worth utilizing instead. There's a possibility that we are simply pushing too much power budget here that forces her into too niche of a use case, but Love Tap is providing a new and unique way of interacting with the game - confident we can make it worthwhile. The following changes should be in the next build: **Love Tap** * Now benefits from Life Steal **Strut** * Love Taps now extend the duration by 1 second (2 vs. champions) instead of 0.75 seconds (1.5 vs champions)
I get the fact that she has defined weaknesses, but why does she have so many? I get that she is an immobile marksman, but why does she need to stop to cast her E? She has 3 windup/cast times in her kit on a champion that has no escape already whose movement bonuses are cancelled in combat. Every other marksman that is immobile has either a) range to compensate, b) combat mobility spells c) Defense mechanisms like hard CC, death prevention, invisibility etc, she has none of that. She's Medium range, slow, and is now guaranteed to lose any 1v1 she approaches and is reliant on her ult to provide satisfying damage to a fight. She does have her strengths but her weaknesses greatly outweigh her strengths right now. Having a passive like Love Tap is great and I don't expect it to change, but it just doesn't feel great on her because it's becoming such a core part of her kit that a lot of players are struggling to make useful. We may be underestimating the power between her Love tap and W, but back when this thread opened you mentioned how Love Tap isn't something you are always required to use and that it is more of a 'bonus', rather than something she has to use but without it she's nothing outside of her ult. Her kit is starting to rely on it too much to function and it completely changes every aspect of her. If you continued down this road with her at least remove the extremely awkward windup or delay when her AA proc's her passive? It makes AA moving so hard to do and I think it would help clean her up a bit. Overall she doesn't feel satisfying to me anymore because of how reliant she is on her passive. I get that it's strong but outside of that and her ultimate she has nothing anymore.
: I agree with everything except that last part. The _idea_ isn't bad. The problem is the _execution_. It was rather half baked. Instead of rewarding and encouraging her to apply damage to multiple targets, this simply splits her attention and her DPS, punishing her for daring to attack the same target ever. It's rather backwards logic and makes MF feel handicapped in so many situations. The MissFortune fantasy is (or should be) that of raining torrents of bullet hell onto many opponents. LoveTap currently not only fails to help strengthen this identity, but it actually works against it.
I totally agree. I proposed an idea where she keeps a mix of Love Tap and the old impure shots where each time she AA a different person she would gain stacks of damage which would carry over to her other targets and encourage her to juggle her AA's more for a higher payout. Overall it would enable them to revert some of her base nerfs and AD per lvl so she isn't as reliant on her passive mechanic to be significant in a fight but would allow her to be more rewarding if she pulled it off.
: Hey guys, there's been a lot of awesome feedback in the thread. So much that I don't have the capability of responding to you guys individually in this case So instead, I want to ask some generalized questions that will help guide us forward (try to keep answers brief and concise): **1. What is your assessment of her general power level on PBE? Does she feel overall strong or weak? 2. What is your assessment of her power level in lane? 3. Is last hitting minions difficult? 4. What is your assessment of her power level in late game? 5. What is your assessment of Bullet Time's power level at level 6? At Level 16? 6. Does Love Tap feel effective and rewarding when it can be utilized (note that the adjustments made to Love Tap on Friday have not hit PBE)?**
1. Weak outside of laning phase (besides her ult), relies to much on her ult. Has way too many weaknesses compared to other marksman. 2. Strong laner still, less all in more poke oriented 3. Yes, Love tap tends to leave them at the awkward 1 or 2hp (especially if the auto crits) 4. too reliant on Ult to be relevant in the late game. 5. Lvl 6 decently strong, but easier to land in lane. Lvl 16 very powerful 6. Doesn't seem to fit with her kit outside of Q, which forces her into a heavy CDR build with ER (which i don't think is very good on her tbh). Lovetap animation prevents her from AA moving properly (biggest reason why people say it feels clunky). Feels rewarding when you can potential get the first auto off, but her lack of follow up damage is what makes it not very rewarding and ineffective in the long run.
: Hey Matchuu, I think your idea is interesting but it's also extremely complex compared to the current mechanic. One of the great things about MF is that she's very simple and approachable, so although we do want to add more mastery and depth to her - we'd prefer to have that with as little complexity creep as possible.
It may seem complex but I don't really believe it is something that will take her away from being a simple champion. (compared to the current passive it is though) but it is similar to what was done with Ashe a few months ago, who is also a simple champion. I really hope trying to keep her simple doesn't hold her back from proper changes. She deserves a proper focus on her kit for once becuase every other update she's had has really felt like it has been rushed and lacked effort. I appreciate your response and believe in what you have planned for her, but please don't overlook her potential like others have before. Thanks again for your thoughts. :)
: Miss Fortune PBE Feedback Thread
I've got the chance to give the changes to MF a try and I believe in retrospect these changes have done positive things for her however I do think they've brought back some previous issues she had. I am glad she's getting a distinction in her play-style but outside of her ult nothing really seems to make her feel like a "Wombo Combo" Marksman and her identity should involve more than just her R (which I believe was an issue she had a few years ago). I do like her juggling style gameplay with the new passive however I feel like there should be more of a pay off for it since she has lost quite a bit of her 1v1 potential. I'm proposing to making a change to the passive to allow MF to stack it to a maximum cap of lets say 5 hits (obviously it can be a different number) The new passive would work something like this (with obvious number changes which I won't get into) 1) MF attacks apply a stack of Love Tap each time she Auto attacks a new target dealing bonus damage. 2)Each time MF successfully switches targets she gains a stack of Love Tap that increases the damage of Love Tap for her following Auto attack on a new target (in my example the cap is 5 which would be the most damage you could get from the passive). 3) If she focuses the same target for more than 1 Auto attack her stacks reset back to 1 (dealing the minimal amount of damage). 4) After not successfully auto attacking a target for (x) amount of seconds her stacks reset to 1. 5) MF's W interacts the same way as it does on the PBE which extends the duration of the AS buff but a limitation could be added like a max duration or until the juggling chain is broken. I find this allows MF to continue to use the interaction with her Q while providing more of a benefit to switching between targets to increase her overall DPS overall providing a mechanic that MF has been lacking that enables the player to feel satisfied with if they execute it the right way. It Creates more decision making for the player (should I focus this guy down? Or keep switching between targets for better damage?) It combines elements of both what you have developed as well as what I myself liked about her currently on Live servers of stacking damage and what I believe a lot of players liked about her. It also introduces a mechanic for her kit that she has always lacked. Since she has always been an ADC with very little outplay potential I believe she requires a mechanic that makes players feel satisfied when they manage to get it to work out. A passive like this reinforces her "Wombo combo" marksman Identity by allowing her to set herself up to shred the enemies. Of course I believe that she should have some power taken away from her ultimate and some other parts of her kit that are currently on PBE to compensate for a more well structured passive that I feel would solidify her identity. Statikk I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and the communities thoughts as well. I strongly feel this would be the right direction that MF should go and I want to know if anyone has any comments, concerns or questions so feel free to ask! Thank you for taking the time to read it! :) Looking forward to continuing the testing on MF and the other marksman.
: Miss Fortune feedback thread!
Now aside from her pretty drastic changes to her W can we get some more information about her Q and passive. I would really want to know more about what exactly was cleaned up and changed about her bounce targeting mechanic. Has it kept its priority system from before or has that changed? We can see that the cone size has been significantly reduced and i understand it was reduced because of how reliable it was but the current one seems to be much harder to actually land making the skill pretty unreliable. (Yet I have to admit when you do land a shot with the bonus damage it feel extremely rewarding) Maybe understanding more about what has changed on the ability can help clarify how to adjust our play pattern and allow us to work with the changes and have some reliability because currently she looks great and feels pretty smooth but her kit has lost a lot of reliability. To make use of her Q to it's fullest potential you need to rely on landing a tricky shot, and she lost a lot of trading potential from W while still maintaining her old weaknesses and flaws like a passive that can easily be negated and a channeling ult. Another thing i would like to look at would be her passive. It does mention on the champion update page that she has received a scaling passive which currently is not on PBE. The PBE version is the same as live with the only change being that W gives strut instantly. Could we get more context on what sort of scaling she is getting, if any at all that is. Either it being a number scaling based on lvl or if her MS scales off something like AS or on how much damage she has. The overall visual component to MF looks pretty good. The base model as well as most of the skins have improved yet some of them do have changes that change the skin dramatically. Specifically the changes to the Candy Cane and secret agent skins really change the look of the skin in a negative way (Candy Cane MF should have Candy Canes and the secret Agent skin needs the detail of the dress to be added again while also adding the holster back to her leg.) these skins were heading in the right direction but really missed some key parts to both of them that made people originally want the skin. Her visual update is better than her old look (i don't agree with the splash art change though especially since she was referred to as "bloody haired" on the champion update page but now has lost that aspect to her) but the overall kit changes are very disappointing and unorganized especially since we haven't been given any direct context on changes (like why Grevious wounds is being removed from champions kits or why certain changes have been made while others haven't) She is incomplete on the PBE and hasn't really been compensated for the current changes that have gone through. Out of all the champion visual updates that have happened she seems to be the least focused on which is a real disappointment considering how long she has been in the game and how much she has been affected by the direction the game is going. I do know that there is still plenty of time for this PBE cycle for changes to be made but she does need some direct focus especially to her gameplay. Looking forward to seeing what changes within the next week. Thank you for reading my feedback.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: The Season 1 Fnatic Skin Set!
I am a big fan of these skins and so far they all look great. Was wondering if you guys were thinking of giving Janna an Orange shield maybe? or orange Tornado. I know it is a 750 skin but sometimes you guys throw some visuals in. Also regarding the splash art. J4, karthus and Gragas look great! But corki and janna are a little off. The way the light reflects off janna makes her look very ugly and corki seems like he has a lack of detail.
: Cassiopeia, Texture and Gameplay Update
Just concerning her New Icon, I am a fan of the new splash mainly her eyes however i feel like the icon she has should be zoomed in a bit. The eyes are her focal point and I feel like the current icon doesn't represent that well. Same goes for Renekton. I feel like he would also benefit from a zoomed in icon.
: Azir, the Emperor of the Sands
Haven't tried him yet but have played a few games with him. Seems like a very fun champ so great job on his Gameplay and design. However I just played a game as Jinx and when I destroyed his turret by his nexus i got my passive proc from it. I thought i read somewhere that you guys don't intend to have jinx's passive proc from it. Besides that he seems pretty awesome and i'me looking forward to trying him out! :D
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Arcade Miss Fortune!
Tried out the skin today and so far it looks awesome! A few things to possibly look at are: 1) Q sound effect/ Particle effect (Seems a little off) 2) Maybe try out a different colored hat? 3) Grievous wounds indicator that would match the theme of the skin. 4) A small particle or color adjustment to the ult (seems a little lack luster atm) Other than that I believe the skin is great! Looking forward to buying it. I was also wondering if there were any plans of adding a "Game Over" Message or sound effect when {{champion:21}} dies. Seems like a great opportunity for one. Looking forward to the final product! :D


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