: On top of the things you cited, Janna gets 10 AD on her shield per 100 AP, 25 raw damage on an IE crit. She gets 60 extra heal per ult tick (180 total) and various other minor bonuses. Nami gets increased returns on E, 5% extra slow on W, 10 extra MS that scales with %MS sources on passive. Lulu gets ridiculous. Annie won't stand within 1000 range of the AD or help in charging because she has to hold her stun. Zyra is indeed a good choice since she'll hang back and spam spells, peel for the AD and enable it to do damage. Zekes enables everything about her playstyle AND gives her damage. If you build something like sightstone, zekes, banner, twin shadows, you'll get a very utility heavy build with a respectable amount of AP and tankyness. You simply don't like the idea of a support that deals damage or enables doing damage as a build. You don't have to run Mikaels Righteous Glory to be utility focused. Supports have generally good AP ratios between utility and damage (from Lulu levels of amazing yields to Janna levels of "good-but-not-that-good-unless-you're-the-ADC.") These builds carry risks but generally scale much better into the lategame. I, for one, am excited to see how Zekes will shape AP leaning support builds and their teammates' in turn. If I go Zekes, my AD might be able to spike earlier by building Shiv or even Youmuu's. If I'm playing a shield/heal support, my teammates might focus more on items with resistances than HP, which usually come with increased damage potential though CDR or passives or plain damage. My midlaner might stack less AP and go more utility builds if I use Conduit on him and not the AD. I want to see how making support's innate abilities more powerful fares against the ubiquitous power of meta items, unlock more ways to playing support than pressing 1 to 3. These are exciting prospects.
> [{quoted}](name=Zephiel,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=lEXEsgWL,comment-id=0015000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-02T21:55:58.015+0000) > > If you build something like sightstone, zekes, banner, twin shadows, you'll get a very utility heavy build with a respectable amount of AP and tankyness. You simply don't like the idea of a support that deals damage or enables doing damage as a build. You don't have to run Mikaels Righteous Glory to be utility focused. Supports have generally good AP ratios between utility and damage (from Lulu levels of amazing yields to Janna levels of "good-but-not-that-good-unless-you're-the-ADC.") These builds carry risks but generally scale much better into the lategame. > > I, for one, am excited to see how Zekes will shape AP leaning support builds and their teammates' in turn. If I go Zekes, my AD might be able to spike earlier by building Shiv or even Youmuu's. If I'm playing a shield/heal support, my teammates might focus more on items with resistances than HP, which usually come with increased damage potential though CDR or passives or plain damage. My midlaner might stack less AP and go more utility builds if I use Conduit on him and not the AD. I want to see how making support's innate abilities more powerful fares against the ubiquitous power of meta items, unlock more ways to playing support than pressing 1 to 3. These are exciting prospects. You've misunderstood me. I have nothing against damage-focused support builds (Zyra is my main). I'm just saying that, if I'm going to build AP, I'm going to do so on the champions who benefit most from that AP: the mage supports. This is why I mentioned that utility ratios are weak. Sure, Janna can give the ADC 25 damage per auto _if he crits_ per **100 AP**. You know what Zyra or Annie or Morgana does with that same AP? Much more (comparing entire kit to entire kit). I actually used to love playing traditional supports, but as more gold/gold value gets shoved into the role, it becomes more and more attractive to run the champs that scale better with items there instead. There's a reason the Janna/Sona/Sorakas of the game were played at support in the old days and not the Morgana/Annie/Zyras - it's because those champions are stronger on low gold. There's also a reason none of those champions are currently played in solo lanes, and it's the reverse. Lulu seems like the sole exception, so maybe there's some value there. Anyway, that's why I'll be playing mage support if/when new Zeke's comes out.
: As is, this item is broken. 50% crit for 6 seconds is an invitation to go ham. IE PD BT and you erase everything in sight while boosting your lifesteal so you can hardly die, especially when the item is in the hands of Janna/Nami. It's fine if you don't like AP stacking supports, but pretending traditional supports weren't reworked so they could have access to scaling on their utility is petty. It's a genuine buildpath for traditional supports, so I don't see why it shouldn't be encouraged as a valid choice. As it is, supports are Sightstone + Locket + Talisman/FotM/Righteous Glory + Mikael wearers. This item would just encourage them to buy those underrated existing items because of its AP synergy, not limit it further. The whole "on damage" activation is the most important gate on the item, it would be ill-advised to remove it. Otherwise it becomes an on-demand 50% crit chance that could very well come with on hit buffs/shields from a support boosted by their AP. I agree it's strange such a different item is taking the place of Zeke's. They don't bear any resemblance. I say good riddance to Zekes, though I love it in those rare cases it's useful (full AD comps, double AD comps - the vamp route is just absurd, however), but replacing it for this is odd. It's just a annoyance, in any case. I think 50% crit is far too powerful, but the stats are great and the AP scaling seems balanced enough.
Utility ratios are mostly trash. Traditional supports that build AP do so for their usual AP ratios, not the utility ratios. Sona isn't stacking AP to increase her slow%, she's stacking AP to increase her heal. Janna has a good ratio on shield. The only thing the establishment of AP as a viable build path on traditional supports accomplishes is pushing them out in favor of mage supports (which I assure you we'll see if/when new Zeke's comes live). You think I'm gonna waste this item on a Nami or Sona? No way! I'm building this on "support" Annie or "support" Zyra.
: I'm aware of the itemization hole that exists for a valid option for CDR after one of the two large Mana items - that wasn't the goal of this pass - as I was specifically trying to break up a specific set of items that drowned out almost every other AP option. > The solution is to nerf both of them, rather than holding back all the other manaless APs I mean, yes and no. There's about 6 Manaless APs in total. Kat/Rumble/Vlad are fine. Akali/Kennen are energy based so CDR wouldn't even help them. And then you have Mordekaiser. It's not really 'holding back' the other manaless APs - more so that they *are* the entire bulk of Manaless APs. > non-mana-regen casters While this is a class of characters - there are far less casters than at first glance. A lot of Mana based characters (Karthus/Anivia/Singed) for example - would like shorter cooldowns - but since their primary Mana drain is a toggle which doesn't scale - it's debatable whether it's actually as important to them or whether it's be kind of a trap compared to more raw AP or Pen. Hyper Spam Casters can often get by with regen based solutions - as their patterns are to basically harass over a long amount of time - and thus are naturally going to go into Athene's. That leaves a pool of champions that are probably closer to either mid-ranged AP in terms of playstyle (Kassadin/Annie types) that find this item desirable and could make use of it - Unfortunately, they're almost all assassin types that are fairly indistinguishable from Katarina in terms of pattern or damage preference - so what the item can do becomes really *really* tricky. Am I missing a champion pool that you're thinking of?
I was thinking more about the champions who don't currently use RoA/Seraph's as their current build, but might be more inclined if there were better CDR item support for that build path. I'm picturing mid-ranged APs as the candidate users as well, but more old Karma/Lissandra/Galio than straight burst mages (I know Grail is awesome on Galio, but health itemization gets a bit hard to find). Specific champs aside, I feel that expanding the userbase for these items will create more actual diversity than changing the relative power levels of the AP items without changing the typical build combinations. The new RoA/Seraph's look extremely strong, but I don't expect any new champions to start building them with these changes alone. Getting into those specific examples, I actually do think the Karthus/Anivia/Swain's of the world would appreciate a better CDR build with RoA. Karthus/Swain would actually be able to add a good amount of damage through Karthus Q spam and Swain having higher uptime on Torment. Anivia/Swain would be able to offer their teams more teamfight control by bringing their longish-cd skillshot CCs down in cooldown. The best users of manaless CDR itemization are Morde/Vlad, but Kennen would appreciate CDR in a couple of ways that get around his energy limitation. First, it'd simply be nice to have ultimate up more often, as it feels like it's extremely important to his kit. Second, for the usual flash+R+W+Zhonya's combo, it would help bring W up sooner for Kennen to get stuns and refund his energy. Admittedly, this could be painful in lane if W comes back up before a mark falls off, but that can be fixed other ways. Thanks for the thread and keeping up with it!
: > [{quoted}](name=Mandang0,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=004a000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-19T18:52:09.710+0000) > > Regarding the concern of mana users' access to spell vamp: How do you feel about your itemization strength/options for manaless casters? > > It seems these champions' kits are designed around their fact that they're manaless (less reliable CC than mana users, less reliable poke, less range, etc), with the implied upside being that they don't have to spend gold on mana. However, with new RoA offering 100 more HP than Rylai's and just as much AP for 300 gold cheaper, while also solving most champs' mana problems, where are manaless champions to look to bear out the itemization advantage to offset their other disadvantages? I think spell vamp's supposed to have been that stat, but even then you don't see Kennen build it, and you could argue Katarina builds it simply to get at the rest of gunblade's stats/active. > > Some manaless CDR options for mages would be really awesome too, as currently Morello/Athene's just dominates everything else. Not only would it help manaless casters, but it would also help the RoA/Seraph's champs. Build Diversity! Athenes is already great with Roa/Seraph builders, though, and any AP/cdr item would buff the hell outta manaless champs. \>Cdr \>More mana regen from your mana -> spam forever, especially on champs like AP kog, who really don't run oom in fights even spamming ult, because of the 33% mana refund on assist/kill. \>MR synnergizes with RoA's hp
That's all fine and well, but it doesn't address the problem I raised. If I want CDR as a RoA/Seraph's builder, I either have to spend another item on mana (Athene's/Morello) or I have to spend another item on pure defense (Glacial/Kindle upgrades). This is in contrast to mana regen users who are usually fine on just one mana regen item, which also provides half of the CDR they need to get to cap. While Athene's+RoA might work, it also puts you 5500 gold into your build before you even start on your deathcap/luden's or void staff. This is exceptionally slow - 5500 gold in a mana regen build gets you Morello+Luden's! Also, manaless champs _as a class_ could probably use the buff, imo. Sure Kat's a problem, but that's because she has AOE resets (which also sorta remove the need for CDR). Vlad's a problem, but that's because he sustains like a monster. The solution is to nerf both of them, rather than holding back all the other manaless APs and non-mana-regen casters on the account of 2 champions. Morde's dumpster right now, and CDR has a downside for energy champs that it runs them out of resource faster.
: The main difference between LoL and an ARPG is that you can **swap back** in an ARPG - but you cannot in LoL - therefore, the items need a relatively larger amount of difference and specialization to stand out from one another but it is completely doable since there is zero cost to swapping them back and forth. In LoL - the swap cost is huge (again, gold driven) - and frequently you are making some aspect of the decision before you fully know what your opponent is actually threatening. You cannot change course as easily - nor can you reverse your previous decisions without cost - therefore, unless the item provides a baseline level of security - the item basically has to make you auto-win if you guess right - because if you guess wrong, you lose. > It's not the low AP that makes your kit feel ineffective; it's that the passive has little to do with you kit that makes your kit feel ineffective. If his basically reduces down to 'I don't like HP burns and I want more burst damage on tank targets' - you are perfectly valid in disliking the fact that Liandry's is a slow burn that synergizes based on how much of a poke / kite pattern you are rather than how much of a burst/rapid caster you are. That said, that's not a comment on trade-offs - that's a comment on the play pattern feeling generally unsatisfying on most burst mages. > that's making it more effective in the wrong direction. The crux of the issue that I'm trying to point out is that - many utility mages require a high amount of AP for their utility spells to function well (most notably, shield effects). There's another side to this where many poke/kite mages are also catcher syle mages - and thus - a large part of their contribution is the ability to threaten squishies out of nowhere. With Torment being a relatively inefficient source of AP - all buying Liandry's meant was - you can't do the things your mage is expected to do - even if you've correctly identified there are high value targets on the other side to burn. There are a ton of options that exist that can further enhance what your mage is supposed to do - so Torment sandbagging you in this aspect meant that it's not an option when you want to choose to react to your opponent. Torment does not need a built-in penalty in order for there to be a huge contrast to another potential item buy. > On a related note, what do you feel is the purpose of armor pen and magic pen? Do you feel it's a general damage amplifier or that it's there to counter defensive stats? Both? Neither? What do you consider the purpose of flat vs percent and reduction vs pen is? Flat Penetration, generally speaking, acts as a target focus. It doesn't currently but that's due to it being entirely item driven rather than kit driven. The more you rely on Flat Penetration - the smaller your available pool of targets gets. % Penetration, on the other hand, broadens your range of targets and makes you more agnostic to who you're actually fighting. We're using both of these statistics pretty poorly at the moment, to be perfectly honest - but it'll require a deeper pass to get this one right.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=004c00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-19T18:33:37.012+0000) > > If his basically reduces down to 'I don't like HP burns and I want more burst damage on tank targets' - you are perfectly valid in disliking the fact that Liandry's is a slow burn that synergizes based on how much of a poke / kite pattern you are rather than how much of a burst/rapid caster you are. Perhaps you could make the item feel more effectual? Making it % **current** HP feels weak on casters with good burst. Making Liandry's a DoT makes it harder to appreciate the total damage the item adds, and it also necessitates the least attractive feature about Liandry's - the fact that it can't stack. Comparing this to BoRK (an item more players value), BoRK's damage comes in every time you attack. Casters are already more limited by cooldowns, and the Liandry's no-stack restiction just adds to that. I now believe Liandry's is a very good item for the price, but only after I actually did the math. I think the current implementation makes it hard for players to realize this in-game without overbuffing the item.
: No, this type of spell vamp would be a poor fit on revolver as the key issue to address is the fact that Spell Vamp early on Mana champions is terrible due to the fact that they're spending Mana to return a Health resource - whereas Manaless characters only have to expend a CDR charge. Thus - we'd have to figure out some kind of trigger that both types of characters have a definite limit to (like, tying most of the health restoration to minion kill or something) - in order to smooth out the discrepencies between types. A terrible example would be something like perhaps, X% Spell Vamp - but some sort of flat health recovery on murdering minions that then disappears when you upgrade the item - evening out the distribution between Manaless and Mana users as Mana users can still get the sustain via killing the minion via basic attacks. The problem with Revolver isn't that you need penetration or whatever - it's that we can only balance Revolver to be good on Manaless mages because it implicitly offers so much more to them than other types of Mages.
Regarding the concern of mana users' access to spell vamp: How do you feel about your itemization strength/options for manaless casters? It seems these champions' kits are designed around their fact that they're manaless (less reliable CC than mana users, less reliable poke, less range, etc), with the implied upside being that they don't have to spend gold on mana. However, with new RoA offering 100 more HP than Rylai's and just as much AP for 300 gold cheaper, while also solving most champs' mana problems, where are manaless champions to look to bear out the itemization advantage to offset their other disadvantages? I think spell vamp's supposed to have been that stat, but even then you don't see Kennen build it, and you could argue Katarina builds it simply to get at the rest of gunblade's stats/active. Some manaless CDR options for mages would be really awesome too, as currently Morello/Athene's just dominates everything else. Not only would it help manaless casters, but it would also help the RoA/Seraph's champs. Build Diversity!
: Vayne bugfix on PBE
Can you tell us what the old bugged AD ratios were?
: Bruisers typically attack things that are lower resistance, while ADCs ignore more resistances on the targets they attack. I've just generally found that whenever we put % Max HP damage on anything, squishies tend to die all over the place.
Sure, but ADCs attack things with more HP, while bruisers attack things with lower HP... and enemy HP is what the damage scales from. **The observation that a physical proc (like BoRK's) is stronger against low armor says nothing about whether it should be %current HP or %max HP.** If you're trying to make the proc better on ADC than bruiser, what your observation actually suggests is that you try true damage. What have you tried putting %Max HP on? DFG is an obvious answer, but seeing as you lead off with it anyway, I don't see %current HP doing any better a job there. I still think that all non-multiplicative procs will undermine the carry's build path, but that seems a separate matter from %max vs %current (and I'm guessing from all the other reasons squishies are dying in your example: high base damages, other on-hit procs, other steroids).
: % Max isn't a tank buster item. % Max Health damage is a bruiser item at its core - the reason for this being that an item with % Max Health damage is far better on you when you have low damage of your own. Since the % Max Health would be lower - you'd actually want to target low armor targets to get the most value out of it - again, better against squishies. To throw a thought experiment - who would benefit more from the following item? 50% Current HP on hit 25% Max Hp on it. The ADC would most likely kill you in 3 hits with either item as he's dealing 300 + 50% of your current health or 300 + 25% of your max health. In any event, against a 2000 health target, you're dying in 3 hits. However, let's look at the bruiser who does relatively low damage per hit. 100 + 50% of your maximum health would take 5 hits to kill you - however, regardless of his damage, he would kill you in 4 hits with the Max HP version. Obviously the numbers are extreme here and tilted to favor my point but % Current Health damage favors characters with intrinsically high damage per attack - whereas % Max Health is agnostic and thus favors characters regardless of their base damage (which end up being bruiser focused.) > Lastly, every time Doran's Blade changes, why does its AD have to go down? It continually gets weaker and makes last hitting at certain points a bit harder. Mostly because every time we make Doran's Blade more stackable, we have to keep in mind that we never want triple Doran's to be the best option - just one of several potential options.
Could you clarify on %max health vs %current health? I'm reading your example, but coming to the opposite conclusion as you. I'm assuming you mean that the ADC's autoattacks deal 300 flat damage per attack and 25% max/50% current health total over the 3 attacks (50% current HP per attack doesn't seem realistic). Against a 2000 HP target, 25% max HP is only 500 damage, nowhere near enough to kill the 2000 HP target in 3 hits with the 900 flat damage. 50% current HP is going to beat that out if the enemy's starting at full health, because you spend so few attacks when the enemy is below 50% health (ADC isn't 3-shotting anyone in either case, but still). In this way, I feel %current HP is better at bursting targets down (if the equivalent amount of %total HP offered is only half as much, as in your example), while %max HP favors sustained damage dealers. That pattern holds in general, though. If you're interested in bursting a target, the fact that your damage scales from *current* health rather than max health is less important. An ADC who needs to stay on a target for quite a few shots (the case for most of the game, especially considering when BoRK is completed in a build order) would benefit more from the steady damage of %max HP, certainly relative to those bruisers. The points about %HP damage being agnostic and lower-armored targets taking more damage from physical attacks are overly general, and apply to any incarnation of a %HP physical damage proc - the existence of a non-multiplicative scaling proc like BoRK's is always going to favor the champs who don't build as many damage items, and physical damage is always going to be more potent against lower armor, whether it come from BoRK or IE or AD spells. I don't think either of those argue whether %current HP or %max HP works better, and I think you need to compare them head-to-head to identify that (which you did, but I still don't understand your numbers, and your bruiser example has both cases listed as "max HP")
: > that's potentially roughly 16% of his mana returned when his passive procs, assuming his mana is low enough. You might be misreading the item there. It gives you Mana Leech - it doesn't restore 8% of your mana. It restores 8% of the damage dealt if you're at 0% Mana - similar to life leech. > Is her ultimate going to work with the Ardent Censer? Yes - an AoE restriction might be tricky to do, but if we really need to do it, we can. I just think it's premature to do an AoE restriction as the two cool interactions are: 1. Single target high uptime heals/shields with offense boosts (Janna/Lulu/Kayle/Nidalee) 2. AoE low uptime mass effects (Karma/Thresh/Locket/Soraka ult) I kind of want to see how #1 and #2 pan out before thinking about the AoE stuff. Under the hood, I can already detect most of the AoE cases as is.
Between the current all-in pattern of 2v2 bot lanes (so, not necessarily LCS play), tank supports' greater inclination toward building Locket relative to the squishy supports, and the fact that Thresh is already easily atop the support class, don't you think your #1 and #2 only work to extend this disparity in support strength between the tanky supports and the squishy ones? What I mean is that high uptime on single target heals doesn't mean as much when the attack speed that matters is that during the all-in bot (later, in teamfights as well), when Thresh will also have a shield to offer, and in teamfights the Locket on tanky supports will already outdo the squishy supports' higher uptime heals for activating censer. I'm all for Leona/Morg coming out somewhat weaker with this, but Thresh needs to be looked at. Lastly, if this is sorta the reincarnation of Stark's, can we get a reincarnation of old WotA? Autoattacking champs already seem to be the more popular variety (lifesteal more popular than spellvamp too), and pushing censer into the game only seems to be crowding out AP casters even further. Mid used to be an AP lane, now you see AD there as often as not. That's good and adds diversity to the lane, but the exact opposite has happened top, where you almost never see AP champs laned these days.
: [Planned 4.10] Item Changes (Attack Damage / Attack Speed / Warden's Mail / Support Itemization)
How many AP champs even see play these days (emphasis on competitive play, but I'll pose the question in general) How many of those AP champs build Grail? How many of the junglers/tops/AD mids/ADCs are harmed by Grail having as much MR as it has? ...so what's the point of nerfing the MR on Grail? Why not nerf the few problem Grail APs (Ziggs, Ori, ?) instead of blanket nerfing an entire class? (or buff Leblanc and the other non-Grail mids, if that's what you're after) Also, what will be done to bring older, more-mana-intensive champions into line once you remove Grail from their set of options for managing their mana?

Mandang0

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