: Sorry, but I fail to understand which list you're talking about.
List of champions. The order people were in the loading screen, basically. That's obviously assuming simultaneous damage (some AoE "expand" like Sona's ult or malzahar's wall).
Rioter Comments
: [Question] Expose Weakness
Most likely the person lowest on the list. Damage is resolved by participantId, which represents the order of the champions (basically). This is also the same reason why Luden's Echo on Karthus will always proc on the first person alive on the list of enemies when you use Requiem. There is no way to alter that order btw.
: Bug Abusage
The PBE is bound to exactly the same Terms of Services (ToS) and End User License Agreement (EULA), meaning that anything that isn't allowed on live isn't allowed on PBE and vice versa. Abusing bugs isn't allowed, and thus, it is a bannable offense.
: I too had this problem at one point. You can fix it by just doing a google search for the keywords that you want, followed by, http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/ Hope this helps, Whoisdatguy {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
Having to google a sticky is an even worse design, thanks for proving my point.
: > [{quoted}](name=Maechen,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=nNh1vVhZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-07T19:19:49.753+0000) > > They already said that with the new Deathfire touch, all DoT mages are overwhelming, so they are nerfing all DoT mages. But what about the Swain that doesn't go DeathFire touch? That's simply unfair for all the non DeathFire Touch Swains.
Well, AP tryndamere weren't an issue so clearly they had no reason to nerf him. Similarly, I haven't had any problem with Sorakas going Warlord's so Soraka shouldn't be touched. The fact that you're playing Swain wrong isn't a reason to not nerf him.
: I actually recently posted in the Q&A about this issue but haven't gotten a response. I don't think they are still responding to that thread after 12/3.
I've given up close to a week ago. I'm just gonna wait to see how it evolves on Live. I don't even expect her play rate to raise once the hype dies down. Heck, it could even drops if the 5.25 changes are too small imo.
: 2 Servers Suggestion
Making 2 servers would be counter-productive. What we need is 1 actually good server.
: Riot Insight Requested: Why is Swain being nerfed?
They already said that with the new Deathfire touch, all DoT mages are overwhelming, so they are nerfing all DoT mages.
: So are they discussing the same concerns we have in NA? or is everyone happy with the state this rework is in?
Well, just like everyone who haven't tried her yet they're really ecstatic. But no, they aren't discussing balance/design much, it's much mroe about creative design (lore/visuals/etc.)
: i don't know i didn't read but it's a big thread. it's the thread of Poppy Q&A
The Q&A didn't really share the same topics though, since it was a lot more about creative design and whatsnot.
: But what do you need the RP for? That is the question {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Well, personally I need like 10 more icons to complete my collection...
: i need help my pbe is not working
Did you install it at the same place as your regular LoL client? That causes all sorts of issues when you do.
: Minions just standing
If it also occurs on the live servers, you should report it in a ticket or the live boards instead.
: DJ Sona was on the PBE for longer then the actual Sona update. I think that just says everything wrong about the PBE (and everything right about the skins team.) EDIT: To elaborate: I don't even know why I bother giving feedback in regards to reworks. While balance might change, every single rework that was supposed to hit the PBE (hello Riven edge mechanic) shipped to live. And considering that Riot has a very hit-and-miss history with reworks, I don't like this. For an example: Repertoir repeatedly stated 'sorry, but we're not letting you fight in valor form anymore' and never gave a reason as to why. It was one of my favorite parts of being Quinn and not having it was a big thing for me; at the very least, I would like to know why my favorite thing about Quinn was being taken away. I may not like the answer (and, considering my reaction to most reworks, I would probably still hate it) but at least I would have information. The skin team, meanwhile, has actually changed things and admitted when they were wrong. Good job! I still have my problems with how skins work, but most of them probably fall more into marketing's camp then anything else.
I 100% share that feeling. For Poppy I went out of my way to repost a list of question to SolcrushedJust to be able to know why they "ruined" my main (that one if obviously subjective, I'm pretty confident that Solcrushed would disagree for instance). At the end of the day, I still don't agree with a lot of the decisions that were made (some being as big as how Solcrushed approaches a champion's design), but at least I can now disagree with an idea or a choice, instead of disagreeing with my interpretation of the result.
: New Draft !!!
Luckily for you, old draft is staying at least in the short term. Otherwise, choosing ward is something that's confirmed to be on their list, for the "preview skin" thingie you'd have to use the actual feedback sticky.
: Club tag?
you joined a club. See the "persistent chat" sticky (in general feedback?)
: Poppy passive suggestion
Rather than giving CDR on kill, it would be wiser to give CDR on shield pickup (and since it's auto-picked up when you kill a unit, you get the CDR). Basically, give Poppy an actual reason to pick the shield up.
: First off, thanks! I would disagree that the in-house testing team is only good for testing if the champion is playable. While I can't go into specifics (partially because of NDA and partially because I don't know all of them), I can say they do more than just see if champions are playable and do more than just play - there is a lot of discussion and reporting that also goes into it. You're right, they certainly don't represent all of live, nor does PBE. As for roles, we do have players who main various roles, and each player is ~Diamond 1 on average, so they have a solid handle on the game and have been playing the game for several years. We do utilize PBE for the down and dirty bug finding, and that's one of the purposes for the PBE. While we have in-house testing for all content, we feel it's also important to get some fresh eyes on it. That said, while not every post may be responded to, Reds are reading the content and discussing it. It's probably hard for you to take my word on it, but it's the truth. As for the huge amount of item changes, ADC changes, etc., this is common for preseason. While we want some initial feelings on PBE, we're also utilizing live environments to get the masses involved with the changes. By having a preseason, we're able to get all of the kinks out before the season officially begins. PBE participants are selected based on the needs of the PBE. If we're looking at releasing a new support, we'd approve support mains. If we're looking to change the onboarding process for new players, we'd approve lower level players. There is a mix of players on here, and we're okay with that. It gives us a wider range of feedback. For example, changes to Caitlyn may feel way different for a Plat player vs. someone in Gold. As for the number of players on the PBE, this is done purposefully. We keep the numbers fairly low because we don't want PBE to become a smaller version of live. It's not meant to be a place to just play, it's a testing ground. In terms of the Snow Day Syndra arm adjustment - that was a less than five minute fix that just required a geo change, no rigging needed. :] You're right that changing a kit is a lot more work than some visual changes to a model. Since we have a launch skin that comes with the base, if a change is made to the base, it also needs to be made to the skin, which could mean creating new particles for both the base and the new skin. Depending on the change, it could be an hour's worth of work, or a day. Some changes may appear more difficult than others - it's a case by case basis. Keep in mind that a kit for a champion has been iterated on internally for several months and it goes through a ton of iterations based on the play tests done by several teams. Poppy is another example of content that has been in the works for several months, and there's been a lot of behind the scenes work done on her. As someone who knows little to nothing about how to make a kit or how to balance a champion, I trust that Champion Update are masters of their craft and have a good sense as to what they're doing as to why. (That's not just me sticking by my colleagues - it's based on the weeks/months of work I see them doing). In some cases, PBE content isn't based on a two-week cycle. I'm going to use skins again 'cause that's my subject expertise. When we first put DJ Sona on PBE, we let her hang out on PBE for several cycles. It was a huge skin with a lot of new challenges and tech, and we wanted to make sure we caught all the bugs and made proper adjustments before we went live. Now I understand that getting content to the PBE and not seeing change is frustrating, even if there's a lot of feedback. Lemme pose this question to you. If we don't make changes, are you okay as long as there is some kind of explanation for it? In some cases, I've seen players upset due to a change, but from the 'insider perspective' I can understand why the change is being made. *This ended up way longer than I intended. @__@*
EDIT : removed some tangential part because I'm even worse than you at keeping my comment short... especially on the topic of the Poppy rework which I consider the one change that missed its mark the most in the history of LoL. I personally believe that it's exponentially more infuriating than the Karma one was, especially since you guys said that you learned from the Karma one. > I would disagree that the in-house testing team is only good for testing if the champion is playable. While I can't go into specifics (partially because of NDA and partially because I don't know all of them), I can say they do more than just see if champions are playable and do more than just play - there is a lot of discussion and reporting that also goes into it. > [...] Just as a quick note, it feels to me like you take my initial comment as an attack that you guys weren't properly doing things with in-house/PBE. I really don't blame you, I simply think that the magnitude of both teams make the testing very ineffective, an while it's fine during preseason, a lot of bad stuff go through during seasons simply because the PBE is too small of a testing environment to be actually useful. > In some cases, PBE content isn't based on a two-week cycle. I'm going to use skins again 'cause that's my subject expertise. When we first put DJ Sona on PBE, we let her hang out on PBE for several cycles. It was a huge skin with a lot of new challenges and tech, and we wanted to make sure we caught all the bugs and made proper adjustments before we went live. Yeah, that's one of the reason that I didn't want to respond to you, since your team is actually awesome at doing what they do. That kinda makes my post counter-productive since I'm having a hard time finding skins/VFK/VO/SFX/etc. examples that weren't (imo) properly dealt with. So you end up just being used as a "Reply to Red" rather than "reply to KateyKhaos", but yo uwere discussing the topic which makes it more than tangential... which makes it all confusing T.T > Now I understand that getting content to the PBE and not seeing change is frustrating, even if there's a lot of feedback. Lemme pose this question to you. If we don't make changes, are you okay as long as there is some kind of explanation for it? For Poppy, that's the point I'm the most frustrated/disappointed that's aimed at Riot as a whole. The amount of silence that surrounds her release is nearly embarassing. It took over a week (and 1-2 reposts because of holidays which made every communication possibilities terrible) to understand the [design philosophy](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/iELz2g6E-poppy-update-feedback-thread?comment=00680000) behind Poppy. For a whole week, we had been testing a champion and having relatively comparable negative experiences (like getting creep blocked away from passive's shield) and a complete Radio silence from everyone on that team (assuming there's anyone else that did design outside of Solcrushed). I just checked and between the release of the Poppy thread and the first post that answered a complaint, here's the breakdown of posts (spread across 7 days) : - Snowdown 6 - Syndra 29 - Poppy bugs 4 - Gnar 1 - Poro king 3 - Clubs 5 - Draft mode 5 - Mundo bug 1 - Azir 1 - Misc. (general bug, etc) 4 There were also ~12 more posts before we got the actual discussion I linked above (although given the length of my post and his answer, the 12 posts were probably done while he was reading/writing :P). Btw, I really think taht such a "context" post should be done with all releases. Simply highlighting the issues the design team had with the prior design, and how they think they fixed it. Nothing really fancy, simply making sure that everybody's on the same page, because in this case, most people expected poppy to be a fighter, not an "ultimate peel tank". This can give the feeling that everyone's iterating on their project, except Solcrushed. After a few day, I personally even suggested on forum and/or chat that maybe he was keeping silent because they went back to the drawing board to change how one or many of the abilities functioned, but that was all denied by a miniature number tweak on Q and base AD. This means that not only is Solcrushed just not addressing any of the PBE's concerns, but he's actually satisfied with the current iteration (while we have the perception that a vast majority isn't). We also stil haven't had a word about why Poppy's *personality* was so drastically changed in the process. If anything is supposed to be kept in a rework, from my point of view, is the character of the champion. In this case, we had Poppy, a *battle-hardened veteran* (see the glorious reference in her name?), who's really serious about everything, who got turned into a melee armor-clad Tristana. She's now a kind of klutzy magical girl wielding a hammer dilly dallying around the battlefield and compeltely lacking any kind of self-confidence. If it's not Poppy, why is it a rework? Is it simply because you couldn't fit that character in LoL because the "little girl with a hammer" design space was already used? So yeah... that the gist of my feelings. I personally feel like Solcrushed really dropped the ball on the rework (by not preserving the "Poppy" part of *Poppy*), but even more than that I feel like he dropped the ball by having a complete radio silence about literally everything. He hadn't posted a single thing outside of pre-planned posts like the "Forging the Hammer" documentary for half the patching cycle. A lot of people complaiend about CertainlyT's handling of the Mordekaiser rework where he basically discarded some people's opinion since he thought his way of doing things were better, but at least he was giving feedback that he didn't think it was a good idea, sometimes even justifying it. And the craziest hing about that is taht Mordekaiser was actualy a revolutionary kit trying to force a melee AP duo lane isntead of ranged ADC, whereas Poppy's kit is simply a fairly bland peel tank.
: I think the new Fervor of Battle is neither a buff nor a nerf, well you can't keep the stacks up permanently with say yasuo q or attacking minions etc. , but melee champs getting 2 stacks per aa kinda makes up for it (asuming you are melee), I think it'd be fair to reduce the spell stack generation cd to 1.5 atleast though, since ranged champions have a hard time building up stacks atm imo.
Actually, Fervor is a massive nerf since most champions simply netered the fight at full stack and kept their stacks for the duration of the fight. Still, it only makes sense that they would make it so you have to ramp up in the fight instead of just unborrowing/poucing during your travel to keep stacks up. Also, saying that Fervor was weak compared to other materies in its tier is ridiculous.
: Equalize doing its job but needs more bonus
I don't think Equalize is supposed to make it a fair game, but rather it's supposed to narrow the gap between the 2 teams.
: Predictions for post rework launch
Actually, I think that the Karma rework was vastly superior since it preserved a somewhat similar personality and playstyle (they simply removed the strong AoE heal on a very short CD). The reason that people were so pissed is because it was the first time a champion had been changed so much. As for predictions, Poppy will be tried top/jungle/support but will stick to jungle and support fairly quickly. She will start by being vastly underpowered, but they will buff her leading to jungle Poppy being obnoxious in the mid game, leaving her to get nerfed to a state where she's unplayable, except that this time she will legitimately be bad instead of her pre-rework state. A lot of people will also say that they still prefer her after the reowrk because she's fun to play, but what they don't say (because it's obvious to them) is that they only play her in bots and ARAM without trying to compete. Because don't get me wrong, new Poppy is really nice in a casual game. EDIT : I would actually like to add an addendum where if she stays present in the top lane it'll purely be because of the lifesteal mastery working with her shield to create a completely oppressive experience for the opponent.
: As mentioned above, we take feedback from several platforms. While not every platform may have a hands-on experience, they are seeing videos, are watching streamers play these champions, and have also formulated valuable opinions on the subject. It helps us see a more well-rounded view of what the overall player sentiment is on a particular piece of content. In addition, we're also playing these changes in house with not only the team who made it, but several other teams, such as a highly ranked (D3+) playtest team who are giving feedback daily based on the changes being made even before they hit PBE. While the feedback may not seemed 'listed to' because something wasn't changed, it's taken into consideration in the development process.
The sad thing is that I can't even reasonably start debating with you, because you're the prime example of what the PBE is for. You're not only vocal about why changes are done in a certain way, but your team (skins) also really adjust their stuff based on feedback. If I had to keep it short, I think that all the in-house testing team can do is check if the champion is playable or not. I doubt that your in-house team really has hundreds of players, so the amount of testing done has to be minimal. They also can't really represent all the people on Live since they're smaller by orders of magnitude. I'd love to know how many players in your in-house team play Poppy competitively, and how many ADC mid mains there are, or kill lane support mains (like J4, Akali, Rengar, etc.) It's ludicrous to think that the in-house team can really reflect the diversity of even a team as small as the PBE's (not that I think you assume that, since I clearly think that you're lucid enough to realize that... you look like a nice person. I simply state that the feedback from the 2 will necessarily be different). And that would be fine, if only the PBE was a legitimate testing ground for things other than bugs. Right now, the PBE is truly only a freelance QA farm (and we're talking about the bad QA, that is only about bugs and stress testing and stuff like that, not the interesting QA like you guys do at RIot). The issue with the PBE is that not only is the amount of player way too low (making it run into the same issue as your in-house testing), but the skill disparity is also enormous (making it arguably worse than your in-house testing). So basically, only a selected few players will be able to actually talk about the balance of various changes. It's made even worse by the fact that tweaking kit once it reach PBE is much longer than tweaking a splash art or, arguably, a model. In some cases, the changes required to a champion kit is closer to having to re-rigging the model but with only the guideline of "arms *feel* a little too skinny in comparison to legs". Taht's the kind of change that will likely take 1-2 weeks to iterate on, and the PBE cycle is setup in a way that 2 weeks is too long. The timing window for changes is of roughly 6 days. A cycle is 2 weeks, but 4 days are weekend. Out of those 10 days, the last 2 are reserved to localization, patch notes and various other meta-patch duties. The first 2 are also pretty useless since you have to gather data before iterating on it, leaving a total of 6 days assuming there's no holiday. In this current cycle, Solcrushed probably had closer to 5 days to iterate on Poppy, which means he probably has to work on 4 days and fine tune the last one. If we assume that a single day receives no patch, he's down to 3 iterations. I really think that PBE cannot work with 2-week cycles. Either it needs more time, or it needs a bigger population. At least 5-10x more players.
: [poppy] why do you do a "sion level rework" And then ship it out only half way done?
I think that we, the testers, have to take a bit of the blame here. Everyone's feedback wasn't actually all that constructive, and aimed at changing the rework instead of bettering it. Personally, it took me close to a week before I formulated a post that was actually trying to understand their design choices of Poppy to try and actually express myself in a coherent way (which happened yesterday). There is a massive change in feedback between : > While her Innate is active, it isn't interactive. It's simply that everynow and then, you have a stronger AA that spawns a shield. I would really like it if there was an additional effect to picking up the shield, or if there was a CD reduction when something happens or pretty much anything. and > The funny thing is that all [skills apart from Q] have the exact same issue. You have to choose between the fun part of the skill, or the optimal one. [...] I really dislike having to choose between enjoying Poppy or playing her well. I used 2 of my quotes to not call anyone out, but I think that a lot od comments were along the lines of the first one where we didn't try to work with Solcrushed and instead tried to teach him how to design. Personally, I intend to gather all the E bugs I can find, since it's too late for any real feedback (kit is basically locked on Friday), and I'll let the live community express their thoughts once they try her. My biggest fear is that since she's 450IP, a lot of people will play her casually at first and really enjoy her, which will give a skewed perception of her viability. Since, like I highlighted, Poppy is *really* fun to play when you don't try to win. --- On the flipside of all that, I wish that developpers for releases and reworks gave us a clearer description of what kind of kit they're shooting for so that we can actually give feedback around that. For instance, if they tell us that they want to shoot for an armor-clad Poppy that protects her team and is very centered around heavy hits of her hammer, we could've asked if it's possible to make allies pick her shield up, or simply express how we feel she lacks those "protective" tools, and that maybe her W passive chould be changed into one, or it could be tacked onto her W active since it feels lackluster.
: I hate when Riot does this...
They still work together, you simply don't get the Statikk Shiv on the main target. It made no sense that AS items would give you burst.
: If these changes are so set in stone already, why was hardly any feedback taken before? Edit: Her assassin playstyle was uphelp by her ultimate, but if she didn't have it she would still be strong in diving the enemy team. Completely changing her playstyle is not keeping her identity, and I'd like to know what you have in mind when it comes to deleting her and replacing her. Edit2: I'd like to ask a question: For such a small yordle with a giant hammer and giant strength, was making her an adc peeler primarily intended as part of her design? The new kit does not fit with new lore or anything about old poppy, and I'm confused as to if you really want to change her identity so greatly without reason.
Actually, the playstyle kinda fits the new lore. She's simply trying to find the hero to "save the world", and as the comic shows, she's still trying to help people however she can. I do dislike the fact that we don't get the "hack and slash" part of her like shown in the comic.
: Dang I replied to the wrong thread, copying my responses over. 1. Old Poppy: Assassin-bruiser derived from Diplomatic Immunity working in a very unintended way. Outdated kit that had to be artificially held down due to the R. New Poppy: Full commitment to the armored Yordle fantasy (Lots of yordles have big weapons, she's the only one with armor) with great feats of strength. Offers unique outputs while retaining damage threat, but more conditionally 2. Probably next patch if nothing breaks 3. Entire changes to skills will probably only come in the form of another rework if we feel it is necessary 4. We didn't consider Poppy a beginner friendly champion at all 5. The E has actually undergone major rescripting, I've intentionally tried to keep most of the behavior the same as live while fixing obvious bugs. We are committed to continue to improve the feel of the spell even after release, so continued feedback will be appreciated. (p.s. the E missing if a champion flashes or dashes is not a bug, its the same way most of our targeted dashes work) 6. The assassin playstyle was only held up via Diplomatic Immunity, and when we tried a nerfed or conditional version it either felt very generic (Trynd ult etc.) or required the Poppy player to play more opportunistically than we liked. Ultimately, we felt that what we needed to retain on Poppy was the feeling that you could go headlong into a fight without worrying too much about enemies and being a tank was the best way to retain that. 7. Generally tanks/bruisers trend toward mid game power spikes by the nature of our item system. 8. I don't agree that Poppy's tools aren't varied and diverse. Sure she has a clear 'I win combo' but that is not an issue by itself, I favor designing champions where it is easy for players to understand what my optimal combo is. The conditional nature of her spells make it so actual fights are quite varied and interactive (at least so we think) 9. We've definitely backed off a bit from our old stance as we felt that it was causing our champion designs to become more homogenous than we liked. We still don't want to see 'hard counters' where champion picks literally win or lose the game.
Well, I definitely cannot agree with some of the changes you made, but I'm glad I at least know why you made them. Thanks for reaching out! To better highlight my disappointment, here's my issues with the design philosophy of the reworked Poppy : > New Poppy: Full commitment to the armored Yordle fantasy (Lots of yordles have big weapons, she's the only one with armor) with great feats of strength. Offers unique outputs while retaining damage threat, but more conditionally I just cannot understand why you didn't give her at least 1 offensive steroid or reliable source of damage if she's meant to go full tank. Especially since she's basically the perfect embodiment of a juggernaut yordle (armored stubborn hero with a massive hammer). > We didn't consider Poppy a beginner friendly champion at all Why is/was she 450 IP then '-' > Ultimately, we felt that what we needed to retain on Poppy was the feeling that you could go headlong into a fight without worrying too much about enemies and being a tank was the best way to retain that. I just feel like Poppy's current kit cannot go headlong into a fight... Either she won't be able to survive it or she won't have the damage to have a reason to be there. > I don't agree that Poppy's tools aren't varied and diverse. [...] The conditional nature of her spells make it so actual fights are quite varied and interactive. Fair enough, but I'm curious where you are taking that conditional nature of her kit. I don't think looking at Q as a situational slow is an honest answer so we'll already remove it from the equation (and I really hope you don't disagree with that). You have her passive where you can choose to execute a minion togain a shield, but I really don't think that's a wise use of the passive since it packs a decent punch. So your 2 choices are basically to take the shield or not, and one of 2 option might not exist, randomly. You're basically choosing to be tankier at the cost of reducing you "aggro" (aka incentive to attack you)/ You have E where you choose between a bad E now (and maybe you get the time for 1 more) or a potentially good one later. Similarly, you have the W where you choose between instant value or a potential added benefit later (in a lot of cases though, you're using it after your stun hoping that the opponent stupidly waste his dash to receive damage). Then, you have your ult that proposes an actually interesting choice between 2 good options, assumming that nobody with CC is close to you since you're heavily punished by interrupts. The funny thing is that all 4 of those choices have the exact same issue. You have to choose between the fun part of the skill, or the optimal one. You *want* the passive shield, you *want* the W's cockblock, you *want* the E stun, and you *want* the massive displacement from your ultimate. That's the part of the kit that feels great. However, if you have to peel someone, it's most probably gonna be a stun-less charge or a knock-less ult (if not both). Similarly, if you need to reposition, it's just gonna be an unimpressive W. I really dislike having to choose between enjoying Poppy or playing her well. > E bugs Alright, I'll simply try to reproduce all those I can recall (even though I realize it's unlikely any fix gets through before release since you only have at most 2 days remaining to tweak her).
: One of the core elements to a hyper make is there sustain damage, which means they can bust through tanks, I would rather see them deal with his E which is what the keystone deathfire benefits from rather than his W which is completely irrelevant (it would proc thunderlord's, but that has nothing to do with a damage over time mage) The smarter aspect is deal with deathfire touch so it is less exploitable by damage over time mages and other mages won't notice much of a difference
Having sustained damage doesn't mean dealing %hp damage though. Post-nerf, he still has sustained damage by having a DoT on a fairly short cooldown, and AoE DoT that deals %hp damage, as well as a spammable silence.
: Champions skin faire des vidéos
Riot's stance on creating blogs/videos/articles/etc. about whatever's on the PBE is that it's not only allowed but encouraged.
: So... How is Poppy as a New Champion?
> Sure, it stops Renekton/Ahri/Riven/Yasuo from getting in the middle of your team, but it just isn't reliable enough to let Poppy fulfill the "peel for the ADC" role. Actually, that's my 2nd biggest gripe with the ability (the first being how champ select-based it is). None of those 4 champions are really affected by it. You only block 1 dash per person, so Riven, Ahri, Yasuo, and arguably Renekton will still be able to get to your backline. --- Apart from that, I think she suffers from a few issues : 1. She deals purely physical damage on a champion that is meant to build tank/bruiser. This means that not only is her threath much lower against tanks, since they only have to build 1 stats and it's the universally useful one (aka blocks tower and minion damage), but hsE's also worse against carreis who will usually end up with like 3x more Armor than MR. It's all made even worse by the fact that Last Whisper is no longer useful against Base Armor, meaning hat the only way to raise your damage against carries is to build increasingly more ADs (or Black Cleaver). 2. Her whole kit is binary. Q is 2-part and R has a pretty big delay between the instant cast and its effect. This means that unless your target is stunned, you will likely miss half the damage (especially since stun doubles E's damage). This just make her entire kit even more binary, especially since W only deals damage against peopel dashing in your zone (which requires either massive outplays, or a stupid opponent. In 99% of the cases, stopping dashes at the edge and silencing dash spells inside your zone would feel better for both you and Poppy). 3. She is a tank with no reason to get focused. Bard has not only a better stun, but also arguably a better ult, and hwo often do you see Tank bard be played? Sure, you can run Poppy support, just go there and enjoy your melee kit with abysmal tankiness. --- It's weird enough that they chose to remove Poppy from the game, but replacing her with a champ that isn't good is borderline insulting to people who enjoyed her. Like, I played he a whole fuckton, and I'v been saying for at least 1.5 years taht she definitely needs a rewrok because she's already pretty much Olaf'd and she's still too strong. To make her balanced they would've needed to remove like 20% damage on E, raised Q's CD by quite a bit, lowered her base ADs, lowered her ult's duration and raised it CD, and maybe lower passive's damage reduction too. This rework, however, is neither a rework hor a good champion.
: Well they don't ignore us entirely, but you have to keep in mind that we're a very, very small percentage of the overall League of Legends community. Our feedback is definitely taken into consideration, but they also have the other 99% of players to listen to. They also have their own design team, the higher ups in the company, and the shareholders that all ultimately get more of a final say than we do. Basically, what we tell them is taken to the rest of the company and they go with whatever they feel like will be best for the theme of whatever it is they're releasing. It's not that they don't care, it's that they have to do what they think is best, in the end.
We're actually a fairle huge percentage of the PBE community though. It makes no sense to account for the overall community's opinion if they can't get their hands on the change. For skins and the likes, it's super easy for the to judge from spotlights, but for things like buffs/nerfs/reworks, you really cannot argue. The prime example of that would be Poppy's ultimate. Afaik, literally everyone was excited for that ultimate since it looked so nice, but now most of teh PBE testers are fairly disappointed by it because its cool use case isn't useful very often.
: Poppy Update Feedback Thread
I'm starting to get very worried with the rework. Is it possible to get anything from you Solcrushed other than a prolonged Radio silence? I can understand the lack of updates for Thursday-Monday because of Thanksgiving, but right now, it feels like you're trying not to interact with us, and since a lot of people seems to misunderstand the rework's intent/effectiveness (since a lot of people are vocally down about it and you seem to be very confident with pushing it forward, meaning that we *must* be missing something). So I'll just repost my question comment and hope that you see it this time so that we can at least understand what you're trying to do with Poppy. --- 1. Just to put a context to your answers, how would you describe old poppy and new poppy in a few sentences (nothing big, just 2-5 sentences each). 1. How set in stone is Poppy's rework release date to Live? 1. Once she goes live, can we hope for certain skills to be entirely changed in the first 1-3 months following release if she flops, or will we only be seeing number tweaks and other changes that keeps her mechanics the same? 1. How important was it for the rework to preserve the "beginner-friendly" aspect of Poppy? 1. I also kinda expected the rework to rid Poppy of her bugs, yet the E hasn't had any changes on it afaik and it still has the same functional issues that have been reported for 2+ years, were you guys not aware of the issues, or were you planning on fixing them during the week of testing? 1. How did you guys decide on the role Poppy was intended for (in this case it appears to be a solo lane/jungle bruiser->tank)? 1. How did you guys decide on what her power curve would look like (which appears to be very mid-game centric)? 1. I feel like one of Poppy's old issues was that she had a single playstyle : Go in and kill someone the stay in and kill more people. Why wasn't Poppy given more varied fighting tools? 1. New Poppy clearly counters some champions much more than others, and also strugles against certain champions much more than others. Has the design team's stance on "champion select wins" changed, where LoL's hardest counters should be in the form of Teemo vs Garen or Veigar vs Cassiopeia/Viktor and things like that. [For a better context as well as my own perception of those questions](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/iELz2g6E-poppy-update-feedback-thread?comment=0068)
: Poppy Ult Bug--Quite Hilarious
Are you sure Jarvan IV didn't simple EQ combo as you were using your ult? Any dash that is properly buffered will cancel your ultimate's knockback.
: Context on Malzahar nerfs @red
Malzahar is currently really strong because the DoT mastery is overpowered on all DoT mages. So they decided to nerf all DoT mages to increase diversity or some other keyword that won't fit either because it's a kneejerk reaction. The reason they nerfed the pool is because it's the part of his kit that brings the most power to his 100-0 combo as well as having the least counterplay (since the key to beating mages is hp+MR, but pool is %hp, leaving only MR). So basically, by reducing your tank-killing power, they can more easily refocus you into killing minions and squishies. Basically, nerfing W is the best way to reduce Malzahar's late game power without nerfing him across the board.
: LotPK Recall Bug
That's because you can't recall in Howling Abyss. A few patches ago, they allowed us to play the animations still.
: [POPPY] Poppy ult interaction
When you instantly cast, it's simply a knockup + invlunerability.
: That is because of his Malefic Vision it makes it a 110% ap ratio instead of the base 80% ap ratio- where as his pool is a damage per second spell and a static area His biggest skill aspect his is W and R combo; makes more sense to tone back his E if you nerf anything; but since it is deathfire's touch being the outlier it make more sense to nerf the keystone in some way like have it on a 4 seconds cooldown and then you can assess its power better in the future and see if it is too weak or too strong then Malzahar should be a hyper mage, so his late game aspect should be left alone; so base damage on E would make better sense so his power curve is focused into the late game- and deathfire is adding direct power to his E not his W so the nerf is completely irrelevant, you are nerfing a balanced spell to make it underpowered- they need to know how to nerf the right things to be effective nerfs and not just randomly nerfing a spell
Well, he still is an hyper-mage able to destroy any carry that comes even remotely close. He'll simply deal less damage to tanks (maybe only 50% hp now).
: Malzahar and Quinn [11/30]
Malzahar is currently really strong because the DoT mastery is overpowered on all DoT mages. So they decided to nerf all DoT mages to increase diversity or some other keyword that won't fit either because it's a kneejerk reaction. The reason they nerfed the pol is because it's the part of his kit that brings the most power to his 100-0 combo as well as having the least counterplay (since the key to beating mages is hp+MR, but pool is %hp, leaving only MR).
: that's my point on that new Q, if it had a bigger area or something target based like vi's E i do belive it would completely change my current opinion about the rework, that skillshot mechanic + small aoe + cast delay (feels like it takes half a sec from click to hit) + damage divided in 2 hits is just not like the champ or most champs in the game for that matter, i cant say i know any other champ with an attack mechanic like that most of the similar skillshots are either faster and/or deals the full damage at once (not including mages since a lot of mages have that kind of delay like brand's fire ring thingy, though those are usualy bigger areas and higher casting ranges
Evelynn is somewhat similar. It's simply that Evelynn's is weaker so it has a much shorter CD.
: the passive was removed in patch 5.22
That's what I said. It was in the initial changes pushed on the PBE for 5.22
: She was never meant to be an assassin, you can tell just by looking at her, assassin poppy was only possible thanks to the broken ulti she had, and honestly I have played her a couple of times and I do not notice this "lack of damage" or "below average tankyness" you speak of, I can delete people with a well played wall smash together with Q and passive while procing Sheen, I build her like I build a Juggernaut, all the health/ad items I can get and it seems to work just fine, maybe you are stuck in the mentality of old poppy, where you could go 1v5 and not break a sweat
Even without the ulti it was very possible to be an assassin because of your Q's completely stupid scaling (it scaled well with AD, AP, Crit, on-hits as well as enemy max hp). If anything, I'd say that her innate was much more problematic than her ultimate because ultimate gave a clear power/weakness window, whereas the passive just made her much tankier than anyone else in any situations at every states of the game and against (close to) everybody. As for new Poppy, the main issue is that you shouldn't have to land a wall stun to deal damage, and right now your damage is completely ignorable unless you're full damage or you land the wall stun.
: I don't have a friend to help me test interactions on champs... can you confirm whether Rengar is only blocked by it once or multiple times?
I don't see why it would be any different for Rengar explicitely. It isn't even about blocking twice the same ability or whatsot, it's simply that a champion will bounce at most once.
: Tiamat no longer has AOE AA damage. It has been limited only to the Active.
Just to make it clear, this has been the case since the start of the first pre-season cycle (5.22).
: > [{quoted}](name=Maechen,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=18jkhGA3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-29T16:41:17.841+0000) > > I'll say the same thing I said with Graves: If a champion is permabanned, then there is an issue with it that requires fixing. At that point, letting her into the game will corrupt all other data because of her influence on it. It could be because she's causing a bugsplat, or maybe she's simply bugged, maybe she's OP or UP... but Poppy's not the only thing to be tested and if banning Poppy not only make you testing more enjoyable, but also more productive, then there's no reason not to ban her. Poppy currently is one of the big reasons why her being tested imo Deserves Priority such as other reworks. Yeah we got skins and other bugs or issues or the testing of Tweaks to certain champions like Skarners slight R nerf/etc. Banning champions that require testing is inadequate on the PBE.
Let me put it differently... Banning a champion clearly demonstrates that there is an issue with it. As the ban rate gets higher, it conveys that so does the issue's magnitude. For instance, Dr. Mundo is permabanned. This means that there is an issue with him that is completely unreasonable (like, for instance, dealing 300 magic damage at level 1 with Qs). There is no real need to test Dr. Mundo further since he shouldn't go live with the current issue. Including Dr. Mundo in a game would inherently make the tests inadequate for all 10 champions because the game's state is skewed by Dr. Mundo's hypothetical bug. So basically, it's much more reasonable to ask "Why is Poppy permabanned?" (just like Graves and Darius were prior to their releases), than it is to as to "stop banning Poppy". There has to be a reason why it's banned anyway, and discussing the issue will not only help devs understand it better, but it will also raise awareness to those who weren't banning her, or allow those who were banning her to understand why their concerns aren't valid. Personally, I don't ban Poppy becaue I consider she's one of the worst champions on the PBE right now.
: Poppy's W with Illaoi W. Bug or Naw?
Poppy only affect each champions once, so yes it is normal.
: @RIOT why you sleeping on this mundo bug?????
: Yep. Live server Poppy's E has weird and sometimes bugged interactions with most other champions' dashes.
As well as everything else, like being able to bodyblock the crab, or being bodyblocked by the crab. OR even knocking someone over a small wall.
Rioter Comments
: [CRITICAL] Help us playtest new Champ Select over Thanksgiving!
I really don't understand why you have to explicitely lock in your pick.. If I picked a champion, it's most definitely to play it. I just odn't see any benefit to that mechanic and it leads to a lot of frustration (more on PBE than live though, since live queues aren't 30+ minutes -.-')
: There's a lot of toxicity on the PBE vs. Live because there's no accurate way to determine matchmaking. So many people only have 4/5 games, and so are placed with people at the same level, which ranges from diamond to the depths of bronze. I just got placed in a match with a bronze 5 syndra and a plat 2 draven, so that created a lot of salt on our team. Also, if people are toxic, don't cry about it here. The report button exists for a reason.
Personally, this is the main reason that I barely ever play PvP games on PBE... the quality of testing is compelte shit when you aren't 5v5. In my lastgame, I had what appeared to be a bronze 3 or so Jayce going up against a roughly Gold Fiora. We also have the casualest of Udyr jungler who decided to only build defense after completing Devourer, Trinity Force, Hunter's Potion and Boots2... The game finished after 35 minutes, he was like 1/9/0 and his defensive items were : Triforce, Chain Vest, and Ruby Crystal. Similarly, both ADCs had like 12 CS after 4-5 waves (and it wasn't because they were trading, they simply had n oclues how to farm). Seriously... something needs to be done about PBE's matchmaking because unless you're very average and you don't get matched against good players, it is frustrating to play in PvP. EDIT : And it's obviously even worse when queues take like 30 mintues to pop.
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Maechen

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