Rioter Comments
: https://imgur.com/a/ZQ7o7Js Here you are. Garen is a Juggernaut, a subclass of fighters. Riot classified him as not a tank, unlike maokai. And don't try to say something like "silver mindset" as an argument, i'm D4 55% winrate on euw.
I'm an NA masters support main. Garen is not a juggernaut. He's misclassified. Period. I can tell you're plat anyway so you diodn't need to tell me. Anyway, keep being hardstuck, idc anymore. seeya
: Garen was weak, really weak. Source : Riste, the OTP Garen that got to Challenger. He said it himself. I watch a lot of his content. I'm only D4 and it's already hard to pick him a lot (he's my champion with the most mastery), i get flamed a lot in champselect each time I pick him. He NEVER won a competitive game until the 5th August of 2019, something like 9 years after his release. But you must be gold at best to say that, and its a fact that Garen is a noobstomper so yeah in games where people play with their feet he's pretty good. No opinion on his rework though, I did not play on pbe before they deleted his on-hit stuff.
Nobody said he was OP. Hes not supposed to have damage. He's a tank.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T23:36:48.017+0000) > > 1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. > 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. > 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. > 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. > > Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. > > In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. > > But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) > > And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. > > And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. > > But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. > > Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries. please just stop. i wont even bother telling you everything you got wrong. i just saw one sentence where you said that garen has higher base hp than almost all of them, and this was really enough for me. garens base hp are among the lowest of the juggernaut class at 2048 health at lvl 18, where darius has 2282. just stop. youre not going to change anyones mind that garen is anything but a fighter, lol. and i wont bother trying to change yours. i dont need to. youre not in charge of game balance, so your opinion doesnt have any consequences in this regard. i can only recommend you look up the facts on your own claims. like armor/mr components in juggernaut kits that other champions than garen have, sustain via different sources etc. just read those champions tooltips for a change and youll find your mistakes yourself. this is {{champion:102}} passive for example >Additionally, Shyvana starts with 5 bonus armor and 5 bonus magic resistance, which is permanently increased by 5 for every elemental drake (Cloud Drake, Infernal Drake, Mountain Drake, and Ocean Drake) her team slays. dear god. im gonna stop talking to you now. dont bother responding.
Oh no, one of the champions have a whopping 5 Armor and MR to start scaling to maybe 15 to 20 extra armor and MR if she gets every drag, consider my point invalidated. And i said base, as in level 1, he has a higher HP value. All of my facts are just that - Facts. He doesn't do any damage, has a passive and W that are solely tank abilities as opposed to 100% of every other juggernaut in the game, peels for the carries, etc. He's a tank. Period. You can bring your silver mindset of "I don't agree with you despite the fact that all of your facts are 100% correct so I'm going to just stop talking to you now rather than provide you with more than one single example" all you want, but he does half the damage of everybody else on the list while being twice as tanky. He's a tank. Get over it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T09:09:05.695+0000) > > Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. ok, i see there is no use arguing about it with you. youre going to be stubborn about it. it doesnt really matter if you want to accept riots definition of tanks or fighters or not, but its the one garen will be balanced around. ill just say that riot defines a tank in league of legends not just as a character with a lot of defenses or sustain. theyre utility oriented characters usually with a lot of aoe cc on top of defenses. their job is to initiate teamfights, peel or lock down enemy champions. tanks: {{champion:89}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:12}} fighters: {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:254}} fighters, and juggernauts like darius, garen, olaf, illaoi, nasus etc. as a sub class of fighters are carries. their job on a team is to deal a lot of damage. they have an entirely different role than tanks. >Nasus. Darius. Garen. Skarner. When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee. They’re League’s hulking titans who, come late game, turn into super tanky carries who’ll pretty much destroy anyone foolish enough to get in their way. The prototypical juggernaut is Nasus, the classic one dog late game wrecking machine. The archetypal raid boss can only do his thing when he’s in melee range, and his lack of gap closer means he often has to rely on allied speed boosts like Sivir’s On The Hunt or well-aimed crowd control like a Morgana binding to get close, but once he does, he unleashes the power of his trademark Siphoning Strike. this is riots own class description back from the juggernaut update. except skarners role which they want to change, everything still holds up. i started playing this game since 2 weeks after garens release. he was never a tank. not once in his existence. his role was always that of a fighter, whos durability is just to offset his lack of mobility.
1. Malphite has literally 1 CC ability and is more commonly built AP to kill people themselves that as a tank. 2. Mundo does 0 damage and literally the entire point of him is to peel with his cleavers and W and be survivable, so I can see you have the league of legends class equivilent to Face Blindness. 3. Again, Darius, Warwick, Vi, Renekton, all have lower base resistances, health, and have no Tank in their kit at all. 4. If you are going to tell me there has every been a time when Garen has been in a state where he has not won trades through sheer survivability, and has ever been able to do as much damage as Darius, Renekton, etc. in a teamfight, you're lying, because it's never happened. Saying "No he's a juggernaut" over and over again despite sharing little to no similarities with 100% of the juggernaut roster won't make him a juggernaut. Saying his free 50 armor and free warmogs is "Just to offset his lack of mobility" is ignorant considering he has a movement speed buff, yet Darius and Illaoi who are both actual Juggernauts have A third or less the mobility as Garen yet both of them have less base resistances, base health, and neither of them have any Tank in their kit. In fact, if we look at everything that daddy rito defines as a "Juggernaut", we have {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} and {{champion:106}}. But with that said, Garen has higher base HP that almost every single one of them, is the only champion in the entire roster with any extra Armor/MR bonuses, has double the strength if not more of the health regen of the only other health-regen related Juggernaut (Voli), has 0 in-combat health regeneration compared to almost every other person on this list with the exception of Mundo. (Who is, btw, also misclassified.) And not only that, he has MORE MOBILITY than every person on this list with the exception of Voli and Udyr. And furthermore, according to league of graphs, Garen does LESS DAMAGE than the vast majority of every other person on their list of Juggernauts, being one of only 3 Juggernauts with less than 17k average damage, while having over double the combined playrate and winrate of any of either of the 2 other low-damage juggernauts. (Trundle and Udyr being very commonly misplayed and played more as tanks or idle split pushers rather than actually participating in fights, which skews the numbers slightly.) With every other juggernaut in the game having 17k or more average damage, with juggernauts like Illaoi having over 22k damage average. But do you know who has average damage levels comparable to Garen? Other top lane tanks. Sion for example has only a 300 average damage difference from Garen, while even Chogath outdamages Garen with an average damage of 17.1k. The only reason Garen was ever classified as a Juggernaut and not a tank is because of his lack of significant CC. Which is not the only goal of a Tank. The term Tank came from MMOs like WoW, where the Tank's job was to be more survivable than anybody else on the team, and "Tank" the mobs attacks, which is exactly what Garen does. He does less damage and has double the survivability of every other "Juggernaut" in the game, and the stats prove it. Garen is a tank. Regardless of what Riot wants to call him, he is a tank, because he tanks everything and peels for the carries.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:31:22.469+0000) > > Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. 1% max health true damage on basic attacks and spins. this amounted to about 12% with a full spin and auto attack + q rotation. the ult damage was much higher. what they did was a power shift from magic damage to **lower** true damage. the removal of villainy has a large impact on garens viability as a champion. it tied up a major portion of his power budget that needs to be put back into his kit. if youre just remove it without replacing this power, youre just nerfing garen into the ground. if thats their goal, then they can keep their rework. i rather take the villainy mechanic, as anoying as it is to use than to have the champions ability to carry, and his strategic value as an anti-carry neutered. > Darius is also completely immobile darius has his hook, where garen has his q. other than that theyre both pretty immobile champions. the problem is, that after these changes, garen should technically speaking be even stronger than darius in a 1v1 scenario, because he doesnt have the same pop off potential. imo they should put the 1% max health true damage back into garens kit and put it on a different trigger than villainy with sufficient enough counterplay, so there is ever a reason to pick garen over other fighters. even if it would just be another stack mechanic.
Darius hook is not mobility. Its CC. Garens Q is on much, much, much shorter cooldown, and if he silences you, all you can do is basic attack and walk which is basically a camille ult with a shorter direction. (In terms of how far you can go before being allowed to use spells to actually get away, because Garens movement speed is impossible to outrun.) I've said this before and I'm going to say this again. Take away Phase Rush Darius's passive bleed and AD, convert his ult to true damage, make his Q impossible to miss, and you have Garen in a nutshell. Now give him a free warmogs and a free Frozen Heart and 60% tenacity. Its overstatted. I'm not saying Garen was in a good spot, because he wasn't. But when there is a braindead easy simple as fuck champion I need to recommend for a new player, I say Garen. Because he requires 0 game knowledge, 0 skill, and 0 experience to play him at an almost perfect level. If you put Renekton in the hands of a newbie, they will fuck up their rage by using it on E or not using empowered W, they will fuck up their rage by using the ult at the wrong time, etc. If you put Riven in the hands of a newbie, they will fuck up their combo because they don't know how to animation cancel or manage their passive. If you put Yasuo in the hands of a newbie, they will fuck up their entire existance because they don't know how to manage his passive and get winning trades and not all-in at early levels, or will fail their windwalls. If you put Darius in the hands of a newbie, they will fuck up their combo by not hitting the Q blade, not waiting until they are max stacked to ult, or by getting afraid and bailing without realizing they are going to get 30 AD on their next auto. If you put Garen in the hands of a newbie, they can do 3 abilities, and all that matters is that the last one is R. It doesn't matter in the slightest which ability you use first, and the combo is dead simple because its literally impossible to miss because you don't actually have to aim anything. All that matters is that your Q movement speed is faster than their normal walking speed since it persists after the Q hits. And unlike every other champion I just mentioned, if you somehow manage to fuck something up and lose half of your HP, you just sit under turret for 15 seconds and you've won the trade. You don't get punished for your actions, the literal only difference between somebody new playing Garen and a veteran Garen player is timing the W right. The champion is a dead simple, 0 skill, face tank, and there is NO REASON it should be doing as much damage as the highest skill cap champions in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:25:27.178+0000) > > Garen is 100% a tank. just because a champion gains extra resistances doesnt turn him into a tank. olaf isnt a tank because his ult grants him 50 armor and mr either. the class of a champion is defined by his role on a team. darius is a carry, so is olaf, so is nasus, so is garen. garen is classified as a fighter. he always was and always will be a fighter. hes a juggernaut. that means hes closer to riven, yasuo, darius and renekton and other carries with his role on a team, than to tanks whos job is to initiate fights, control, and peel. you can protest and throw tantrums about this all you want, but this wont change and its the role he will be balanced around. riot axes mentioned that the only reason the on-hits were removed was because of technical difficulties. he said there were too many edge cases like rammus w, thornmail, shen w negating the entire spin, jax negating the on-hits etc. that would all had to have indually built in exceptions on the spin. he said the strength of the on hits on the spin themselves werent the problem. my guess is the current version on the PBE wont stay in this state. he will either add a real juggernaut steroid to garens kit that replaces villainy (which id prefer), or buff the numbers on the abilities directly.
Thats incorrect. First of all, Olaf is a tank, in the same way that Aatrox is a tank. Both of them are drain tanks, which is why you mainly see Olaf building tank items. Hes just a drain tank, whereas Garen is a traditional tank. Hes only closer to those champions you mentioned because riot has given him overstat damage on his E. Without the overstat damage on his E, he has nothing that makes him not a pure utility champion for Silencing, taking out the enemy carry, shredding armor, etc. And 2 of his 5 abilities are entirely tank oriented as opposed to one or less on every other champion you've mentioned. (Yasuo has tank abilities at all, Olaf has a tank passive on his ult but it converts to AD when using, making him have 0 purely tank abilities, Riven having one shield, Renekton having bonus health on his ult but also gaining extra damage, etc.) Garens job is to initiate and peel. Thats what he does. He goes in, silences, presses E and everybodies armor is gone, and then he cleans up. There is no other champion in the game with two solely tank abilities that is not a tank. And as it stands on lives, Garen doesn't do any damage, and he hasn't done Yasuo levels of damage for a very long time. The only reason why he is even remotely close to what you're describing as a juggernaut is because he's been forced into that role, despite the fact that since release he has been a Tank.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:37:04.306+0000) > > The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive darius gets rewarded with 240 AD, bleed damage and resets on his ultimate when he gets stacked up. garens spin still relies on positioning and is mostly the same as on live servers, and hes not going to carry when he doesnt get ahead. when he does, he doesnt carry harder than most other champions who are snowballing. pick a fight with {{champion:92}} at level 1 and shes going to take 80% of your health with her q and autos. feed her and shes going to snowball to 1v9 the game. garen has increased damage and snowball potential for the loss of tank stats on his w, and the loss of the villainy damage, but doesnt do anything other carries dont already do. > Sounds broken, right? actually no. you can make any champion sound op by listing the benefits of their kit without the downsides.
Darius is also completely immobile aside from a leap as far as Aatrox's dash on his ult. (Which, if you're not a total idiot, you just walk away from him before he gets 4 stacks and wait for the stacks to go away.) Darius's Q requires 3 times as much positioning as Garen's E, considering it requires you to be outside of melee range for it to hit. Garen presses E and it doesn't matter if he gets CC'd, if hes close to them, what have you, hes killing them the entire time. Loss of villainy damage? There was no loss of villainy damage. They converted his ult, which used to do true damage to the villian, into true damage for literally anybody. And the tank stats don't matter if he one shots everybody anyway. But go ahead, what are the downsides of Garen right now? Considering Damage isn't an issue, being kited isn't an issue, surviving isn't an issue, being poked out of lane isn't an issue, what does Garen have that literally every champion in the game doesn't have as a downside? What downside is there, unique to Garen and a few other champs, that make this champion less OP?
: > [{quoted}](name=Lukess,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Ge0hL6sN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-21T00:17:08.770+0000) > > A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC oh, i see. youre making a couple of false assumptions. first off, garen isnt a tank. he never was. hes classified as a fighter. his intentional role is to be a juggernaut. a tanky melee carry, who can indeed deal damage like a marksman while hes hard to take down. but those defensive stats are basically compensation for his kit being entirely limited to melee range, and not having mobility. he also doesnt have any utility beyond a single target cc. those are huge factors. you shouldnt think of garen in the lines of a tank, but more of a less mobile version of {{champion:92}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:58}} and so on. he is the same type of champion as {{champion:75}} second, youre listing his rework, ok. but the attack speed scaling in itself isnt even a buff. what it does is to bring attack speed up in cost effectiveness to the same level as flat AD. though the attack speed scaling, a {{item:1043}} becomes about as cost effective as 1000 gold worth in AD for garen as offensive stat. this is opening up his build pathes, but technically doesnt add power. the power shift comes mostly from an 8% reduced isolation damage, 20 less armor and magic resistance on his w, and 1% max health true damage on auto attacks and spins against the villain that he loses. in return they added the on-hit effects to the spin so garen can scale with items like {{item:3153}} and {{item:3077}} and can proc conqueror with the spin, and use lethal tempo. like garen on the live server does actually shit for damage and way less than he should, because his entire kit is balanced around fighting the villain. he has a massive steroid against one person on the enemy team. the whole concept is problematic for garen players, because it can often lead to situations where the villain never lands on a target that we need to be able to fight. we have no control over our own juggernaut steroid. this is why power is pushed back into his base kit out of the removal of the villainy passive, and out of some of his defensive stats.
Garen is 100% a tank. The difference between Yasuo, Riven, Renekton, and Garen is that 1. All of them have worse base health base tank stats. Garen has 36 Base Armor compared to 33 on riven, 32 on Renekton, and 30 on Yasuo. He also has 616 base health as opposed to the sub 600 base health of every one of the people you just listed. And on top of that, unlike all of those champions, he has a significant amount of health regen, similar to a warmogs at level 11 (Which - surprise - is an item that only tanks buid.) And has a FREE armor and magic resist buff just by stacking his W, which then gets 60% stronger when he presses it. Which is not something either of the people you mention have. Not only that, he has HIGHER base HP and Armor than Sion, who is very obviously a tank, while having higher base HP than Ornn as well as the same base armor. Garen is a tank. Crit was already an option for Garen if he needed damage, but the difference was that it wasn't possible to do both. you couldn't go full crit AND full tank. Right now, with the new Garen, you immediately start being able to take 100% of any person in the toplane as long as you play safe until you get BORK. He even outdamages Yi. The only people who can take him are people like Riven and Renekton, but they can only take him because they run up to him, stun them and do their full combo, and dash away beforfe he has a chance to turn around and start beating the shit out of him. Garen was always a safe pick. Your ult did true damage to the villian, and even it doing true damage to everybody now is okay. Your point, as Garen, was to either split push, or run into the enemy team, tank all of their CC, silence the carry, shred their armor with E, then execute them with R. Now, you can effectively do more damage than yi while also being a tank and also reducing CC's by 60% and also still attacking through the CC. Garen did not need to do this much damage. He. Is. A. Tank. He should not be doing as much damage as bruisers like Renekton and Darius with double the survivability.
: > [{quoted}](name=aaaaaashiba,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=2zQPK0W7,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-18T19:42:32.008+0000) > > Imagine a bruiser as tanky as he already is, with an ult at early-mid game that could potentially be stronger that of {{champion:31}} and an insane amount of damage with his E, {{champion:86}} players can even use smite and win lane easily. ok. then also make garens silence aoe that scales up to 2.5 seconds, and give him an aoe knockup like chogath has. its called power budget. garen gets less teamfight utility in his kit than chogath, so he gets more raw 1v1 power. time to respect him like you respect darius in a fight. he currently loses the villain passive and defensive stats on his w. that power is shifted into more damage on his spin.
The difference is that Darius needs to stack up his passive, and the only thing he has in his kit that helps him survive is an incredibly easy to dodge Q. All of Garen's abilities are either impossible to miss or near impossible, he can step out of a fight and get all of his health back and win every trade, and his W gives him 60% damage reduction when activate and 60% tenacity when activated. Imagine this for a moment. You take away Darius's E, give his W a silence, make his ult do max damage at 0 stacks and make it do true damage. Now give him a free 30 armor and magic resist, 60% damage reduction and tenacity, and a free warmogs. Sounds broken, right? Exactly. Thats because it fucking is.
: If you build rageblade on him he's even more broken. Yeah I agree that this "rework" needs to be reverted and thrown in the dumpster. There's something wrong when a 5K HP champ can 1 shot you with his spin.
Everybody is downvoting it because they are silver. No, I don't mean he's going to be building full attack speed glass cannon. I mean he's going to build Bork, BC and Rageblade or Wits End, build full tank from there, and be doing 3 quarters of your health per E and then being able to execute you. He has yasuo levels of damage with literally 2% of the skill required.
: dude, garen was pretty much weak and unplayable. darius is the real op champion that can build a tank yet easily delete an entire team. you're just mad that they made him playable now. and yes, people are gonna play him because it's like any new champion or rework.
If you think Garen was weak and unplayable, you're bronze and have never watched streamers or OTP's play Garen into masters. I'm mad because 100% of the games I've been playing have been either with or against a Garen and 100% of the games, the team with the Garen won. They give Garen a one-shit power spike at one item as well as making him a late game monster to kill and now he has fucking true damage on his ult so there is LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. Yet Tahm Kench is considered by literally 95% of the Tahm Kench community to be in a weak and unplayable state right now to the point where he is currently more useless and unplayable as he was when he was at the bottom of the winrates as a support, yet riot does nothing. Garen does not require skill to play. Garen shouldn't be doing high damage, period. Garen is a tank that literally runs in there, presses Q, and then presses E. Garen is the pinnacle of no-skill champion, and they just buffed him to do as much damage if not more damage than the majority of his higher skilled counterparts. With Darius, you had to manage an incredibly high cooldown E, had to manage your Q blade hitting more than one person in team fights, and have a combo you have to do perfectly in order for you to be able to get any damage off. Garen? Q, then E. Lots of skill right? You don't even have to hit a single one of his abilities on a target in order to kill them. You just stand next to them. And unlike Darius, every ability Garen has is targeted or a huge AOE. Meaning if he's faster than you, there is **no way to escape him.** And unlike Darius, he actually has in-built tankiness becaus his W gives him armor and his passive gives him full health just for walking away for a few seconds. Also unlike Darius, his ult does true damage. So you, as a tank toplane, have 0 options now against a garen. If you play any tank toplane against current garen, you auto-lose lane. He builds black cleaver and suddenly you have no armor, and his ult will one shot you from half health anyway because armor doesn't exist. This champion has been in 100% of every game I've played since its release. I have seen more Garen games than I saw both Qiyana and Pantheon Games combined, despite both being in playable states and being new champions. Why? Because current Garen is overpowered.
: this is literally the first iteration of the rework. its not as busted as people make it out to be. no one is going to build garen full on hit glass cannon. it would be like playing a shittier version of master yi. but feel free to quit because of a couple PBE changes and because you lost a few games on a test server. nothing of value would be lost.
The rework is 100% as busted as people make it out to be. That might be why - surprise - People are making it out to be busted. His E scales off of attack speed and procs on hit effects. He adds one or two on-hit items to his kit and suddenly - A tank that is well up there with the tankiest people in the game is also doing more damage than ADC's. Its fucking broken. This would be fine if it required literally ANY amount of skill. You press E and fucking stand next to somebody and they die. Your ult does true damage so people can't build against you anymore because you just get BoRK and Black Cleaver and your armor is gone. Garne right now is doing twice the damage that Tahm Kench did while being twice as Tanky. Tahm Kench didn't have a damaging ult and only had a shield for in-build tankiness. Garen gets free Armor and MR for farming, and gets double that for pressing W. Its fucking laughable that Tahm Kench was too broken but Garen is somehow allowed to have double the tankiness, double the damage, true damage, and doesn't even have to hit the fucking enemy to kill them.
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Lukess

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