: I suppose I *did* contradict myself a bit with the stat/per spiderling point (I envisioned *small* buffs similar to Rengar's necklace), but it was just an idea that popped into my mind at the time, so I figured I'd throw it out there for feedback. It could still work, but it *would* just add more numbers to balance. Good to see that the cocoon idea was well received though.
This new Cocoon is really nice. Adds more play, more liability, but takes away strength - an optimal combination. Adding these numbers to balance and using her to cut her power down without hurting her too much is a possibility, but not a beautiful one. The mechanic in general also is, as explained previously, unfitting and contradictory to their nature, hence my dislike for that idea. Additionally, really small statboosts tend to often be very unnoticeable. Not to mention: This would hurt lane-Elise rather much, as lane-elise uses a lot more of her Human form.
: I still feel that spiderlings are a good place to start because they can indirectly influence her power, instead of just saying 'she deals X% more damage'. In that same vein, maybe her cocoon's stun could be lessened, but then it either slows the *target* enemy for a brief period after the stun or, upon hitting an enemy, the cocoon spreads to the ground around the target and slows in that area (very small area, slow is 40% or less). A change like this could help her laning by, again, indirectly affecting her power. Another possibility could be to give her bonuses (in spider form) based on how many spiderlings she has at the time, like resistances, move speed, etc. I don't know what the buffs and numbers would be like, but it would at least encourage *management of your power*. They changed Nidalee so that she's encouraged to make use of her Hunted marks instead of just being a spear dispenser and they're changing Yorick so that he can't just dump ghouls all over the place, so why not add some of that to Elise?
> I still feel that spiderlings are a good place to start because they can indirectly influence her power, instead of just saying 'she deals X% more damage'. > > In that same vein, maybe her cocoon's stun could be lessened, but then it either slows the *target* enemy for a brief period after the stun or, upon hitting an enemy, the cocoon spreads to the ground around the target and slows in that area (very small area, slow is 40% or less). A change like this could help her laning by, again, indirectly affecting her power. They also add a lot to her pushing power. On Toplane, this is simply necessary, as the usual AD toplaners push heavily if given the chance to. On jungle Elise, this adds a rather nice strategic aspect to her. > > Another possibility could be to give her bonuses (in spider form) based on how many spiderlings she has at the time, like resistances, move speed, etc. I don't know what the buffs and numbers would be like, but it would at least encourage *management of your power*. They changed Nidalee so that she's encouraged to make use of her Hunted marks instead of just being a spear dispenser and they're changing Yorick so that he can't just dump ghouls all over the place, so why not add some of that to Elise? Elise' Spderlings are a bit different,after all. They are MADE to be rather expendable - hence the easy recharge. Their main purpose is to add a bit of extra *dps* to her kit - they do not give her any real bursting power and only show their strengths in longer fights. Adding stats to them is probably a bad idea(This would probably overpower her after all OR underpower her if she has no spiderlings - and if killing spiderlings is a strong point in fighting Elise, Elise would become really weak without them, which contradicts their disposable nature). However, reducing Cocoon stun duration duration and addiing an AoE slowing field, lasting slightly longer than the (new) stun duration. is exactly what I would I propose - even had that idea in mind. The thing is: In LoL, reliability is a good thing. What they did in the last nerf - nerfing the reliability of a skill - is a rather bad direction, especially design wise(Though, in this case, it is tolerable at least). Making her stun rather minimal but adding a decently lasting slow-field gives Elise more reliability whilst reducing her raw power - in this situation, this is what I call a Win-Win. It tackles her raw power while also making her generally more reliable. Not to mention, a slowing web perfectly fits a Spider.
: PINK WARD SURVIVABILITY
Second idea is creative and fun - but not necessarily necessary and could lead to too much power to the pink. Overall, this is harsh to evaluate. The first idea is quite perfect. That makes ward-defense more worthwhile and increases play, while not empowering pink wards too much.
: What do Elise's spiderlings actually offer at this point?
Hitting Elise' Spiderlings and her interaction with them definitely is a bad direction. But I have to admit: It is really hard to pin-point where she should be nerfed/retuned. And while her jungling is still strong due to the nature of her kit, she becomes less and less viable as a laner, which is something that should not happen.
Rioter Comments
: Your ideas are good, I could see them working out. But if these changes were to happen, I would think she would start to be catapulted to the top of the nerf list. You'll see that in her current state, though she has gotten stronger, she is starting to become balanced. These changes were good for her, but she's probably going to stay where she is. I love the ideas though!
Thanking for the love of my ideas <3 To elaboraite: The CD-Reduction on passive: While still not sure if it would be better to apply it to all auras or to just the prevalent one, I think the change accomplishes the following: 1. More dueling and in-fight potemtial. Sona deals high damage and has a meaningful amount of mobility and dps - the eadded effect just excarberates these strengths while keeping the weaknesses in check. 2. Good play is rewared. A high level Sona knows: Her strength is her surprisingly high damage output, while still offering good utility through sustain, mobility and herr powerful ult. Getting a Power Chord into an enemy is also a HUGE deal, as it deals quite a bit of damage + utility. Rewarding good power chors with the CD reduction seems natural, especially as her new CDs are rather high... This wouldmake for a perfect skill vs Base balance. The R/Aura Range changes: By making the auras dependant on her R-Level, she gets a proper "artificial scaling" into the late. As I mentioned: wtihn late-mid to lategame, the aura radius, currently, is too small to efficiently buff our melees, while in lategame, it is generally too small... Buffing the range up from a mere 300 to +50 every 6 levels gramts Sona proper tramsition into every phase of the game, making her Utility, above all else, ALWAYS count... Which is very important, seeing her, comparatively, low amount of utility.
: In response: 1. CDR will be most certainly a priority after she is changed. 2. I like the idea of AA's reducing cooldowns. 3. Yes. The burst is real.
CDR was always be a priority - but CDR still does not give her a massive powerspike. I usually take Morello+Twin Shadows+Something(Sometimes Locket, sometimes IBG if it is necessary etc.) So her damagey-aspect is still there? Good to know. Generally, I really like the Sona rework, except that applying her Auras still feels clunky in teamfights(No problem in lane, but in tf's, you probably want to boost up your frontline, too... which seems dangerous with only 350 range) As I mentioned - passive reducing Aura-CD's, be it all or the specific one, seems to be a nifty idea to create more play, balance out her CDs, especially before the 40$ CDR phase, and simply make her more interesting. Also, just devised another idea... leveling up her R gives a bonus to a skills now - and as I pointed out, her auras are really clunky to apply to melee in teamfights. The idea I have now is: Why not let R increase the Aura range? While laning, even 300 range on the auras is pretty much enough. First level up of R: + 50 Range, id est, 350(current pbe value) On second it would be 400 range, on third 450 range. And calculating the timing on the levels, it fits in very well: 1-5: Early laning phase. 300 Range makes her auras more risky to use, which is good, seeing her reward. 6-10: Current PBE value, 350. A more usable range, working out well enough I'd say. Skirmishes may start, giving her some extra buffer zone. 11-15: 400 Range - exceeding the current value. As skirmishes and maybe even teamfight happen a lot at this point, the extra range will help her out to safely applyher auras - seeing as Sona is extraordinalirary frail, this extra safety is welcome. 6-18: 450... The endgame value. This is a very acceptable range for auras - and in lategame, Sona can burst apart with utter ease. The additional range, and thus, safety in applying her auras is very.. intuitive, I'd say. What do you say about this idea? I think, combined with my other idea, both would enhance her play, scaling and overall usability.
: A Look at the New Sona From the Eyes of a Devoted Sona Player
Hmm.. FIrst off, since I cannot properly test atm, I wish to ask: How does Sona's damage output, both bursty and dpsey, fare? To me, I always loved Sona, even back then in the gold-starved seasons, for being a remarkable High Damage-Support. Reason for that is: Her powerful Synergy with Sheen and Lichbane allows her to dish out surprising amounts of damage with VERY few items(Build tends to go G2 Item->Sightstone->Sheen->Sorc/Ionian->Morellos->Twin Shadows->Lichbane... Something along those lines, focusing on CDR, manareg and utility-AP items aside from Lichbane). Getting to the point of Morellonomicon is very easily achieved and already grants Sona a good lot of damage... And with the Sona rework, I see AP even MORE important on her: More AP scalings(Q-Aura, W-shield etc). So many utility scalings on one kit coupled with a few acceptable damage-scalings seems to make a more AP-orientated Sona build the best option to go for. But I still wonder how her dps and burst fares. And would like some Insight on that aspect. THat said, I also think it is a good thing to have such a more supportish character being able to dish out decent damage - Sona lacks in CC for that, which is okay(Damage/CC is a normal tradeoff, after all). On Sona's main problems, as you already hinted: She really dislikes the meta. Her frailty makes her rather risky against powerful early-ADCs(Like Lucian or Draven), while also being a bit annoying against Caitlyn's long range, as Sona cannot properly harass Caitlyn with AA's(Passive procs, of course). Furthermore, she dislikes many of the frontline supports... But not exactly due to their tankiness - but due to her medium ranges and frailty/Lack of self-safety. Most of these frontline supports happen to be quite the kill-lanes. Thresh/Leona grab you? You are instant done, no way to retaliate as you'll die before anything else happen. And Sona has to get rather cloe to them to properly harass, putting herin even more danger. I find it very difficult to pin-point a solution for her various weaknesses due to frailty and medium range - and I cannot even say for sure it would be good to rectify these weaknesses even... But I think making them a bit less prevalent would be a good move. On her CD's: From someinitial testing I did, I'd say: It really cripples Sona a good bit in drawn-out engages and escapes/chases. Her no casting time abilities and low CD's allowed her to be a good bit harder to chase(You chase Sona? You'll get her a slowing passve in the face every few seconds, eat her Q's while she heals and up and runs off - all without much of an issue). This is something I am disliking especially much. However, once you reach around 30% CDR, she really does not have much of a problem anymore. The 6-7 seconds CD seem perfectly appropriate... But as Sona will always try to max out CDR rather soon, one has to be careful with her CD's. What I would suggest: Let her passive, Powerchord, decrease her CD's by a second or so if hit on an enemy champion or turret. This would reward good play rather niftily, I'd say. Alternatively, insead of increasing all Auras CD's by a second or so, it could more heavily decrease the corresponding Aura, decreasing the CD of the ability which you used last. Getting more fancy, it could also have an effect as: "If no Aura/last used aura is not on CD, it's next cast withn X seconds will have it's CD reduced by 1-2 seconds". So, here's some feedback.. hope you like and that I will get some back. .3
: Kassadin and his current state on the PBE
With the initial rework of Kassadin, Riot horribly failed. Let me explain why: 2 of Kassadin's most detrimental core issues: 1. Feast/Famine 2. He is either hard-countered or has an instantwin, depending on the lane matchup. Now, with better lategame scaling, Kassadin is less famine - but still just as much feast... Which is a rather bad thing in terms of powerlevel. He now still has this "Counter or get countered" thing going - just that he works against less champions than before. So, essentially, he has the exact same core-issues as before. So, what needs changing? Lets look what he wants to be: A burst-assassin without meaningful CDs that can engage on you anytime. This is the gist of his problems. He can always engage if he wants with his R and his burst lies partially in his low CD R, partially in the rest of his kit. Other than someone like, lets say, Lissandra - who has a long range gap close and nigh instant burst, too - everything Kassa does is pretty much instant. Within about 1-2 seconds, he jumps and uses his abilities on you. And he can do that every ~10 seconds if he wishes to and this is his core problem. Adressing such problems is difficult without changing him quite a lot. Removing the silence, for example, did not do much. Sure, it allowed for some more trading - but if he wins trades, this does not really matter much. His shield also makes him more resilient against free-harass, which is a good way to win against Kassa due to his melee nature... So this is all not exactly "good". Not to mention that the AP-Shield excarberates his "countered" scenario even more, giving him more of this "Free Win or Free Lose" effect. That said, such small changes could never balance Kassadin out, as his core-problems are still present and won't be solved that easily. And... aside from my hatred to them for removing his silence(His damn joke didnt even make sense anymore -.-"), the avenue they should have tackled has been his concept. A low-CD/Low R-CD, high mobility burster is not balanceable except through some very fancy counterplay stuff. Simple logic tells you that - in a favourable matchup, he just engages on you whenever he desires to, winning all trades and winning the lane without much of a retaliation being possible. So, one should change his concept a bit. High mobility will be kept, that is a sure thing... But burst? Sure, he can be bursty, but he could lean more to a dpsing side and lose some of it. THis would make it easier to put in some counterplay. One could craft a bruiser-concept for him, maybe even with fancy stuff as MR-Scaling to incentify his Anti-Mage role(And give him his damn silence back then, please ~.~). And for the ult, one may utilize the Stacking mechanic on his Force Pulse on his ult - this could lead to interesting results. Anyway, this is more of a rant than anything else. The Kassadin rework was a great disappointment - changed him in an... annoying way, created new, obvious problems(lategame) while not adressing the core-problems. They are not as prevalent as they used to be(Less famine, counters not too many chapmps THAT hard etc.), but as long as they exist, he won't be in a satisfying state. They should just Olaf Kassa if he is a problem and think about a better course of action for another rework.
: * cho mobility is very weak. * beside the aa toggle skill, he have a high cool down. * his jungle gank is mediocre at best making him not a hot pick as jungler. unlike nasus where he can get be a tank and dish out a lot of dmg cho can only get really tanky with a lot of disruption if they fight close together. because of his poor mobility with no reliable cc, he dont do as well as other top laner.
His CD's aren't that high, especially seeing as Cho usually goes for a 40% CDR build. His jungle ganks are surprisingly good, depending on the matchups. Cho is a generally awesome counterpick to certain teams, giving him a VERY valuable spot in that. As jungler, Cho feels the tank-Disruption niche perfectly. His jungling is rather safe, his counterganks are powerful and he clears with a good speed. He is "okay" all around and doesn't excel at anything - however, for that, he also has little downsides, as he scales very well into lategame. If you are talking damage: Due to his naturally high health through R, Cho can easily get away with a bruiserly build if you wish to have one. Overall, you also need to buy little health to be rather tanky, opening up the possibility for items such as Abyssal Scepter. Lastly, I wish to add: Do not underrestimate his ganking. Of course, if you pick him against excessively mobile targets, it may not be the best... But it can still work due to the silence. But in addition to that, his natural defenses make him able to towerdive with more ease, his rather spammable knockup(It's CD really isnt long for such a strong CC) is great for chasing/escaping/blocking paths... And his damage? These high base damages really help him out. Cho is not the best first-pick or something. He is very much of a counterpick - but not just to lanes, but in general. If one lets Cho reach his 6 stacks, he also becomes tremendously powerful - something he can achieve within the jungle with much more ease. But I do not want to just be thrashing arguments around. Getting back to the main point: Changing the Rupture, like you suggested, would not be such a good move. Overall, one can hit it pretty decently and it's pathblocking is damn good. Just a small slow makes it a sure hit if chained with the silence, too - and well, Cho is more of a teamfighter than a solo-fighter, like most tanks are. But what are his core-problems? Lack of Mobility is part of his design. His tricky Rupture is, too, I'd say - and it works just as intended. So... What are his core problems and what would be a way to elegantly fix them? Does he really need a straight buff? Should his damage be higher? CD's lower? Once we have discussed these possibilities and the like, you could probably revise a much more elegant solution for Cho.
: you are right about my idea for cho. and i did bring this up because of the current metas as well as patch where majority of the champ get a MS buff while making cho less interesting of a pick. its true that cho don't need to land his rupture only if your talking about him being a tank during late game in team fights. an ap cho he miss out too much dmg if he doesn't land that skill though that dont mean he is unplayable in anyway. chaining rupture off of another champ stun can work only if the scenarios plays in your favor. and making him work as a ap cho mid because more of a selective counter pick or a very niche player that spam cho for a long time.
Cho Gath has TREMENDOUS base damage and AP ratios. An AP-Bruiser Cho can thus still work out well enough and dish out a lot of damage. Missing ruptures? Happens, but AP-Bruiser Cho still has good AAing dps anyway. Also, just small slows are enough to force a targets dashes/hit the rupture. It's range, radius and rather acceptable delay make this possible - especially the huge radius makes it hard to escape for a number of champions, even with high MS. However, if you wish to make AP-Cho work, I have to disappoint you: He does not work, though, he can be fun but in no way viable. Cho has a few traits that make him attractive but are less.. obvious. 1. He is an interesting kind of toplaner. Like Nasus, if he does not lose the lane - he wins it. Because if he does not die, he can stack his ult. 2. He brings MASSIVE disruption for a tank and can easily build a few AP-Bruiser items to bolster up his damage and STILL be extremely tanky. 3. He is a surprisingly good jungle-pick, even currently. His ganks are rather good due to his wealth of CC and respectable damage. These are all very interesting traits one can make use of. Cho is incredibly cost efficient, does his job exceptionally well, being one of the best general counters to combo-casters in the game(Not necessarily on lane, but overall) and has, overall, a great scaling, making him a valuable asset at every stage of the game except the very early. Seeing all these pros, I really wish to hear a con for Cho except "Does not like the meta".
: [Cho'Gath] its time to give him a helping hand
I am sorry but... That is totally unnecessary. Cho's Rupture is a lot like Swain's Nevermove. Notice however: Nevermove has a much smaller Radius AND a higher delay... and it still work well. These are abilities which are both extensively useful in blocking paths - and not exactly in actually hitting them. Both Swain and Cho can, with their high range on their respective abilities, easily block off an escape or chase path. The difference between the two mainly is: Swain has a slow in his kit which he can utilize to hit his Nevermove with ease. Cho does not(Aside from rupture, of course), but has a higher range, larger radius AND shorter delay. Furthermore: At earlier stages, Rupture as quite easy to hit(No boots and such). Later on, you can still hit it in a number of scenarios, while you usually can couple it up with someone elses CC or block a crucial path. Thus I conclude: I may not know if Cho needs a buff or doesn't - I do not play him enough nor see him enough to make a statement about that. But changing his Rupture's hitting mechanic is really not necessary and would not change all THAT much, if anything at all, really. I am guessing that Cho is relatively weak to mobility-champions, which are all the rage for... waaay too long. Especially these aggressive junglers can be a problem to immobile Cho. However, that is not his fault, but the metas fault . which I feel should be remedied, but that is not an easy task.
: Rework of frozen mallet
In general, I do not think FM is not THAT bad - it's just that Health is stat that has generally fallen out of favor and FM is simply not as good as it used to be due to other option(Iceborne, Trinity) and due to the champion within the meta. However, I have to say: Your idea for the passive is very interesting and, as pointed out by someone else previously, I'd also like something along those lines to be seen on an entirely new item.
: I liked everything that you said there... I really think Urgot need these tweaks to be viable again in LOL, but thinking about the current meta... First... TOP Lane: Urgot should be a counter to the gap closers high damage champions, like Renekton, Riven, Jax because these kind of champions are being picked a lot and the only thing we see when someone picks them, is the other one picking Ryze, Vayne (?) or another high damage champion... I think Urgot could fit there to counter these new meta champions... With his kit he already has the power to do that, he can stay from afar and do damage, the only thing that needs to be done is a change in the numbers, Range/Damage/Ratios/CDs... Second... ADC: Urgot kit still fits as an anti-carry bruiser, but as an ADC the real problem is that his damage is so poor late-game that he can't do anything besides ulting someone of the enemy team... Urgot should be a threat that when he hits is E on someone, this guy sould think "Or I stay here and die, because I won't do the damage that I was supposed to do and he won't miss his Q, or I run away and come back when the effect goes off." The problem is that when he lands his E late-game his Qs won't do any damage to some roles, and from an ADC point of view, even with 40% CDR his damage is low. I don't think that the skill needs a change on the base damage/ratio. And I have two Suggestions to make him better/viable. 1 - Make an accumulative effect of penetration or something to his Acid Hunter (Q)... Making him do more damage the more Q's he land on the same target. -> e.g: Acid Hunter corrodes the enemy armor, giving more 15% damage to the next one if landed on the same target within 3 seconds, this effect can stack up many times. - This would make him do more damage the more he focus one target, and because the time between his Qs should be within 3 seconds, even with max CDR and hitting another E on the same enemy, his Q damage buff would reset. 2 - Giving his Q on-hit effects except for critical damage (same as Ezreal Q)... This will make a lot of difference but not making it overpowered. This change will give more variety to his build, making you chose between, Trinity Force to give more damage if you go ADC, Iceborn Gauntlet for a greater slow (because he already has a slow with his shield active, personally I think that a shield giving slow is too strange, so I though that the slow could be removed from the W additional effects) and tankyness if you go ADC/Bruiser. And if it has on-hit effects that means life-steal would still proc. Normally at late-game you won't be AAing with him, so it would be good if you could get life-steal with his Q. The new Essence Reaver would be a must have on him, because of its CDR, Life-Steal, Damage and Mana Regen basically everything Urgot needs. Accepting any suggestions. Hope you like the ideas.
Glad to hear, now onto the topic: First off: Never try too hard to balance around the meta. Really, just don't. That said, giving Urgot more safety with more base MS, stronger shield, better manacost spread and improved Q-lasthitting due to mana refund should already be enough. As it is, he is strong against kitable opponent and a good toplane bully already, he just loses against the ones that can engage on him too easily(Like Vi, Renektion or Riven), but that is okay as a weakness for now. Seeing as you are more focused on adjustments to current kit than full-blown rework, you have to remmber: These are short-term adjustments. So try to not put too much fancy new stuff into him. Leading on to your nw ideas... Suggestion 1: Would, of course, require serious number-crunching so that the Q would still work. If you give it too much "ramp up" damage, it has to start out really, really weak.. and that would be a nuisance. But it led me to a certain idea: Reduce AD ratio on Q and the manacost on Q quite a bit. Successive Q-casts ramp, dealing more and more damage until a cap(increasing both base and ratio). Each successive cast within the timeframe costs extra mana, up to a cap again. This would smooth out his Q-lasthitting and harassing paradigm, while one has to be careful about successive casting due to mana gating, but rewarding if executed properly(Id est, you hit the enemy champion). Suggestion 2: The problem is, sheen is really strong. And putting it on his Q may easily overpower Urgot. Meaning one would have to nerf Q to be next to useless without sheen, especially seeing it's spammability. The idea sounds fine in theory but in practice, it just does not work out due to power-issues. Overall, though, letting Q critically strike for a lower amount than normal crits and giving it lifesteal-properties may actually be a good thing for him... Just sheen would be WAY too much, sadly. The critical/lifesteal effects would smoothen out ADC glasscannon Urgot, AD caster Glass Cannon Urgot and even Offensive Bruiser Urgot. It may sound strange, but I guess the best way would be "all on hit effects but Spellblade(id est sheen)" - as sheen on Q would probably terribly overpower him. At leat these are my thoughts on that.
: 30 minutes is nothing... NOTHING I TELL YOU! Though, not everyone can be as detailed and.. lets call it "thoughtful" as someone who actually works on gamedesign xD Huuh,. that sounded arrogant... ehhh. onto the topic..! First things first, your great... GREAT flaw. You obviously haven't experienced the time when Urgot was not just a viable pick, but rather just OP as shit. You buffed.. practically every aspect on him. Thats... BAD. He is UP, yes. He is wonky, yes. He has problems. Mental ones, too.. I suspect. But he is not THAT weak. So, after pointing out that the "straightout buff everything and give him some fancy new shit"-route is most definitely the wrong one, I shall continue with the aspects I like/find interesting. ** Passive: **Passive-Changes: Hard to say if your ideas are balanced or not, but giving it a way to scale up into lategame through it's most valuable aspect - duration - is a fine choice. **Q:** The refunding manacost on kill when using Q(Maybe even full refund) is really nice and give Urgot another avenue of play, allowing him to stay much safer due to the high-range last-hitting. This safety is important, as one of Urgot's greatest downfalls, especially in toplane, are junglers. **W:** Changing the slowing duration to 2 seconds alone is enough of a buff, no need to change the slow-values. However, the manascaling is really nice. No idea how the numbers must be tuned, but Urgot needs a different scaling on his shield, so that it's actually worth something. Mana seems to be a good way to go there. **R:** Changes to CD and manacost are approved. This is simple modernizing, I'd say. Continuing on, I shall detail my thoughts on Urgots general problems. **Clarity:** Urgot's passive is actually really powerful as it is. But it is... hardly noticeable from an "OOMPH" point of view, similar to Sona's Auras. This is something one may or may not work on, be it through visuals or a different mechanic. **Broken:** Urgot's kit is rather unfair actually. Urgot's ahead? He hits an E and you suddenly are ultra-zoned. You cannot even fight back properly due to his passive cutting your damage down and his shield preventing incoming damage. You cannot do much more than lose out on last-hits and/or experience even... Or eat the nasty Q's. Even inreasing his range is, of course, the worst thing you could do. **Manaproblems: **They are simply to severe early on... Way too severe, robbing him of avenues for play. Harshly reducing early levels of Q's manacost and buffing his base-mana up a good bit would work well. He would still be gated by mana, but he could do a lot more early on.. While later on, after you get your manafixing items, your Q costs go up fiercely, making them still necessary, worth it and letting mana still gate him to an extent. **Identity Crisis:** Urgot needs too many damage items to efficiently build bruiser. Urgot needs too many tanky-items to efficiently tank anything. Urgot is oftentimes seen as an ADCs.. And that while he is definitely no AAer and has next to no synergy with AS and Crit. Personally, I wouldnt like if Urgot would to be reworked into an ADC, but I wish to see his role as an "offensive bruiser"(Like Panth or Riven) incentivized. **Lategame:** He falls off WAAY too hard and he falls off.. rather quickly if not ahead. Putting some more power into his base-damages is also very important. For Urgot, funnily enough, increasing his base damages(Especially on Q, obviously) sharply while reducing the AD scaling a slight bit would actually do a lot for him. This would make him less reliant on offensive items while making his lategame work out a good bit better. Additionally, I would straight out buff E's scaling, to give him more appropriate waveclear and make hitting E's more rewarding, even if the target gets to be out of range. To be continued....
**Mobility: **His immobility is of course a weakpoint, as he is straight out TOO weak to any ganker the has more than an MS-boost. However, giving him a better functioning shield that actually blocks a meaningful amount, increasing his base MS(Maybe even to 345 or 350) and making him able to last-hit with Q due to mana-refund, I think one has a rather elegant way of tackling that weakness without actually removing it but giving him more avenues of play. **Ult:** His ult is strange, but incredibly powerful. It's nigh useless on lvl 1, solid at 2 and damn strong at 3, all due to the ranges. Additionally, his ult is much of a reason for his identity crisis.. though, if we want him to be more bruiserly, it fits in well enough. Without mentioning any crazy ideas, I would start of by adjusting it's range to 600/675/750. This makes it much more useful even on level 1, while being much less overwhelming on level 3. Though, I do believe his ult needs to be reworked. Soo... this all that comes to mind right now. Note that this is not just criticism but also pointing out where Urgot's numerous problems lie, be it to give you some inspiration. Last but not least I wish to say: I do think Urgot needs to a full-blown rework. He even has an identity crisis, so the only thing one can do is preserve his most fun and unique mechanics, everything else could readily be scrapped in favor of a new skillset... Which hopefully feels even MOAR Urgot then. If one would ask me whatthe most important things about Urgot are.. I'd say: His chasing Acid Hunters, of course. His high-range play. His immobility. TZhe combination of high dps and utility. It is open into what direction one could go. He could be one of the first full-blown ranged AD-Casters... And actually, one of the few AD Caster that is not ADC-ish or an assassin. He could be an offensive bruiser.. Or even a defensive one if one finds that fitting. One could also work him into a viable ADC/AD Caster hybrid(Like many ADCs are, to an extent). I would most prefer the offensive bruiser and/or AD Caster aversion. And lastly: I took more than half an hour of my time to write my reply. Ha..! I won. xD
: [Suggestion] Urgot rework idea
30 minutes is nothing... NOTHING I TELL YOU! Though, not everyone can be as detailed and.. lets call it "thoughtful" as someone who actually works on gamedesign xD Huuh,. that sounded arrogant... ehhh. onto the topic..! First things first, your great... GREAT flaw. You obviously haven't experienced the time when Urgot was not just a viable pick, but rather just OP as shit. You buffed.. practically every aspect on him. Thats... BAD. He is UP, yes. He is wonky, yes. He has problems. Mental ones, too.. I suspect. But he is not THAT weak. So, after pointing out that the "straightout buff everything and give him some fancy new shit"-route is most definitely the wrong one, I shall continue with the aspects I like/find interesting. ** Passive: **Passive-Changes: Hard to say if your ideas are balanced or not, but giving it a way to scale up into lategame through it's most valuable aspect - duration - is a fine choice. **Q:** The refunding manacost on kill when using Q(Maybe even full refund) is really nice and give Urgot another avenue of play, allowing him to stay much safer due to the high-range last-hitting. This safety is important, as one of Urgot's greatest downfalls, especially in toplane, are junglers. **W:** Changing the slowing duration to 2 seconds alone is enough of a buff, no need to change the slow-values. However, the manascaling is really nice. No idea how the numbers must be tuned, but Urgot needs a different scaling on his shield, so that it's actually worth something. Mana seems to be a good way to go there. **R:** Changes to CD and manacost are approved. This is simple modernizing, I'd say. Continuing on, I shall detail my thoughts on Urgots general problems. **Clarity:** Urgot's passive is actually really powerful as it is. But it is... hardly noticeable from an "OOMPH" point of view, similar to Sona's Auras. This is something one may or may not work on, be it through visuals or a different mechanic. **Broken:** Urgot's kit is rather unfair actually. Urgot's ahead? He hits an E and you suddenly are ultra-zoned. You cannot even fight back properly due to his passive cutting your damage down and his shield preventing incoming damage. You cannot do much more than lose out on last-hits and/or experience even... Or eat the nasty Q's. Even inreasing his range is, of course, the worst thing you could do. **Manaproblems: **They are simply to severe early on... Way too severe, robbing him of avenues for play. Harshly reducing early levels of Q's manacost and buffing his base-mana up a good bit would work well. He would still be gated by mana, but he could do a lot more early on.. While later on, after you get your manafixing items, your Q costs go up fiercely, making them still necessary, worth it and letting mana still gate him to an extent. **Identity Crisis:** Urgot needs too many damage items to efficiently build bruiser. Urgot needs too many tanky-items to efficiently tank anything. Urgot is oftentimes seen as an ADCs.. And that while he is definitely no AAer and has next to no synergy with AS and Crit. Personally, I wouldnt like if Urgot would to be reworked into an ADC, but I wish to see his role as an "offensive bruiser"(Like Panth or Riven) incentivized. **Lategame:** He falls off WAAY too hard and he falls off.. rather quickly if not ahead. Putting some more power into his base-damages is also very important. For Urgot, funnily enough, increasing his base damages(Especially on Q, obviously) sharply while reducing the AD scaling a slight bit would actually do a lot for him. This would make him less reliant on offensive items while making his lategame work out a good bit better. Additionally, I would straight out buff E's scaling, to give him more appropriate waveclear and make hitting E's more rewarding, even if the target gets to be out of range. To be continued....
: >**(NEW)** **Spell Reaver** >**RECIPE:** Vampiric Scepter + Forbidden Idol + 300 Gold = 1800 Total Gold Cost >Attack Damage:20 >Lifesteal: 10% >Mana Regen per 5: 5 >Cooldown Reduction: 10% >**UNIQUE Passive: Mana Drain:** You gain 1 to 4% of the damage dealt by basic attacks as Mana. Mana drain increases based on how much Mana you are missing. Essence Reaver: >**Essence Reaver** >**RECIPE:** Spell Reaver + B.F. Sword + 750 = 3500 Total Gold Cost >Attack Damage: 80 >Lifesteal: 10% >Mana Regen per 5: 8 >**UNIQUE Passive: Mana Drain:** You gain 2 to 8% of the damage dealt by basic attacks as Mana. Mana drain increases based on how much Mana you are missing.
While I and many others would appreciate an AD+Spellvamp item, there is a reason it does not exist. Was once explained by a rioter, many moons ago. The gist of it: Spellvamp+AD items would be balanced for their intended users, while OP on the unintended users. Balancing it on the unintended users, however, would make it UP on the intended users. Anyway... While I'd really like to see a spellvamp+AD item(And.. generally more/easier accessible/more viable... spellvamp items), I do not see it happening anytime soon due to said problems with such an item. Still, the idea is nice and maybe one should test it out on pbe before discarding it. Only thing I would like to add, though: If one puts Forbidden Idol into it, please keep the flat manareg.. Elsewise, it would create REALLY annoying scenario's. Additionally, the Spell Reaver should be composed of Forbiddon Idol+Long Sword I'd say(No need to copy Vamp Scepter) so you'd have easy access to the manaregen early on in one medium item. And furthermore: You actually LOSE AD if you build your Essence Reaver o.O This is very strange and counterproductive. Additionally, I may argue that more Spellvamp is needed, as spellvamp is less impactful than Lifesteal.
: I actually think it would be worth the work, but there should be some buffs/nerfs to both modes to make it balanced
It would surely be fun, that's true. However, a pure "fun"-mode, which is so.. "different" from a normal LoL game is not necessarily a healthy thing to stay in LoL as more than a temporary mode. As a temporary mode, though, it's fun and they may even do it when they have some time on their hands.. Though, I do not know exactly how much work the Doom-Champs take and also, putting "balance" into that chaos is going to be rather difficult, actually. Doombots themselves, however, I could even imagine as a permanent mode. It is good for a real "challenge". Not even ranked games have this.. challenge predetermined. Some are pestered by trolls and afks, some are rather one-sided stomps, some just have.. unenjoyable teammates, most are, more or less.. "normal".. And just a few are genuinely challenging. Exploring further into the concept of "Doombots", fine-tuning them and adding more, maybe making it harder to apply cheap strategies(id est split push).. Would actually lead to a challenging mode that is not too different from a normal game and actually improves your general skills. Using things like Doom-Champs or URF-champs really doesn't let your general skill grow by much. So in short: The idea may be fun, but depending on the amount of work Riot would have to put into it... I do not think it actually is worth it. Sure, if it's less than I imagine or they've got the time on their hands for that - it would be great. But I do not believe it to be that simple.
: [DOOM] vs [U.R.F.]
Would be funny but... While I think that this would definitely lead to a one-sided battle in favor of URF, it just is a LOT of work. Real LOT. And I do not think this work pays off in the end. However... Doombots themselves are really interesting. They bring something new into the game: A new challenge. Urf was no challenge, neither was 1 for all or anything... but Doombots are actually rather challenging and one could explore that concept further - this could definitely lead to interesting results.
: [Suggestion] A fix for tear
I first wish to know... why such changes? I do not think it is necessary to change these two THIS drastically. AA is always strong. 700g for manafixing is a good tradeoff on a number of champions, while AA itself gives you a MASSIVE amount of AP, great manafixing, the shield once fully stacked and it makes your other mana-purchases more powerful. The main problem why it is underused: 1. Many cannot stack it efficiently or do not need the manafixing - in both cases, a suboptimal buy. 2. Itemspace. You need Boots, you need Rabadons, you eventually need Void Staff. You problably take a miscallaneous AP item before Rabadons(DFG, Guise, Rylais, RoA etc). That's 4 itemslots away, 5 with Archangels. You probably want a Zhonya's, too - and we are already at 6. And now the problem comes: Many of the champions that make great use of AA also make great use of MANY other items(Liandry's, Zhonya's and Rylais, most notably) andoftentimes wish to bolster up their defenses a bit, oftentimes going for RoA. And a Tear->RoA start weakens your earlygame greatly, as it takes at least around 2000g before you buy any offense. 3. The nature of a lategame item - oftentimes, you wont get to late anyway. However, if you buy a chalice, you could oftentimes also have bought a tear with, more or less, the same result in terms of manafixing - people just don't think about that option. So if one would want to make AA more.. attractive, I think that adding additional defenses to it would work out great. It would cater to the dps-mages a lot better and would actually give them room for the item. Other than that: The idea of making tear more expensive by a few hundreds, but granting it more flat mana is not too bad. It enables us to reduce stacking time, which could be a worthwhile train of thought. For Manamune.. This one is a bit harder. Manamune is not an item especially made for AAers and usually more used on mana-intensive AD Casters. They come in squishy and tanky variants, some catering more towards burst, some towards dps. Due to that, the item does not have a clear audience, which makes it hard to make it satisfying. If it would stack faster than now, with the tearchange I proposed, it would help. Additionally, if it would give more flat AD at the cost of a bit of mana-scaling or gold(it is very cheap, no biggie increasing it's cost a bit) would also probably increase it's attractiveness as a rather heavy AD item that fixes mana, but has it's niche due to early game weakness+stackability of the champion that buys it. Anyway, these are my thoughts on the two of them. Needless to say, I do not quite agree with your changelist, as I find it way too radical to change them THIS much, taking both the mana-conversion and the stacking mechanic away.
: sona OP
Ehh.. Your build. This is just... noooo. You'll never get it as a supp-Sona in a normal game. And I think Sololane Sona is fun at times but still rather.. weak, actually. I also build a more damage-orientated Sona, seeing her numerous utility-scalings+her great damage output with VERY few items. I usually go like Tier2 G-item->Sightstone->Sheen->Morellos->Tier 2 Boots, getting a Lichbane later on and maxing out on CDR if had not bought Ionian Boots. Grabbing a locket here and there and a big AP item if I can afford it, I generally focus on utility-AP items(Like Twin Shadows). That said... Your perception of Sona is pretty warped with such a build you will never achieve in a "normal" game - not to mention that you do not max out on CDR nor get any manafixing. Furthermore: Even an 1000% Slow would not stun/immobilize. The lowest MS you can get to is 110, which is definitely low but not immobilizing or stunning you. So overall... If E-Powerchord really stuns/immobilizes, then you have found a bug. However, your assessment of her powerlevel is incredibly warped and thus, is not actually worthwhile data - if you get fed enough to afford such a build, you deserve to be incredibly OP. And if its super lategame and everyone is full-build then... Its not even such a problem.
: I honestly just don't like the shield. The fact that it may have a unique passive or two on it, doesn't completely remove the identity, you're right, but stacking BT is core to it's old identity. You would have to bring that uniqueness in to the new BT and still remove abuse points where possible. I just dislike the shield a lot. I also disagree with you saying lifesteal tank doesn't come from bt alone. Try building a non lifesteal item and lifesteal tanking. It just doesn't work. Don't say bork or vamp either, because that's not the same.
I also do not think this "shield" is a flavorful mechanic, so we agree on that part. I think one should abolish the idea of BT's "old identity", as it evolves into something new(As I mentioned: It is more akin to a defensive than an offensive item now). Lifesteal-tanking, for ADCs, does not work with BT alone - you need more AS. BT gives a foundation of lifesteal and AD, but it alone does not allow to "lifesteal tank". And then again, look at Melee-Carries - they essentially build the same as Marksmen, but have access to another LS item in Hydra. As one notices: BT is then not needed for efficient LS-tanking. And on another note: Lifesteal tanking is something.. bad, usually. Because it usually means: If you get ahead, you get unkillable. If you are behind, LS-tanking is nigh impossible. On equal footing, it is futile. It thus creates a strong feast/famine effect, which is actually quite problematic if one thinks about it. One can come to the conclusion, however: If you have around 20% Lifesteal and a certain amount of AD/AS, you can Lifesteal-Tank, as you put it. BT itself was never a real factor for it, but it happened to give "the" mixture of stats. Now that the item is reevaluated, it probably won't give the heavy stats it used to give, as it's role rapidly changes. I for one, however, would like to see BT as a heavy LS item, cutting more fiercely down on the AD part.
: Essence Reaver build Path still sub-optimal
There NEEDS to be a mana-item. I'd still vote for removing the lifesteal part in favor of more flat manareg and AD, building out of one mana-item and a B.F. Would still be strong for ADCs, especially due to augmented build-path, while also being very viable on a number of AD Casters, a class that really needs more love in terms of itemization.
: I tend to think {{item:3072}} 's core identity are those turn around lifesteal tank multikills for ad carries. In my opinion, having a shield based on level that would activate when you reach 300 hp or lower, would keep the theme of the old BT and give you the defense that you would need when you are getting low (to lifesteal tank and multikill, presumably). I don't necessarily think the shield is necessary at all though to keep bloodthirster a healthy item. Just being able to stack bt's (forget the passive) is good for the game because you have an alternative to the standardized builds with crit. The whole point of being able to stack bloodthirsters is the lifesteal you get and the damage. Stacking {{item:3031}} 's wouldn't make nearly as much sense. So yea, if you asked me what bt's core identity is and focus should be is 1. "being able to lifesteal tank when low" 2. Stackable 3. Cheaper than IE by 600 gold or more
Your "main point" is slightly flawed. "Lifesteal tank when low". This never came from BT alone, but through a combination. If you take this as a core identity we wound end up with an item granting AS, AD and a got bit of lifesteal.. Sound familiar? But yeah, that is the item you are searching for and it is not BT. However, vieweing BT as a heavy-lifesteal item is a step. The stacking of items is, generally, not too appreciated for obvious reasons. I also do not think it adds a lot of value to the game to create an item with "you could stack it..!" in mind, as it simply has not much to it. Create an item that gives top-notch lifesteal and the most efficient G-AD ratio, then you may want to stack that, but is that exactly healthy? Well, guess this item sounded familiar, too... One now really needs to ask oneself... What kind of item SHOULD BT be. BT WAS a heavy AD/Lifesteal item, rather simple, straight-forward and effective. However, it was reworked significantly and personally, I find the addition of a defensive item much more interesting than to keep old BTs role... In my opinion: Creating a "defensive item for ADCs" is not an easy task, but a worthwhile one. In the long run, that could also significantly help out dangerous ADC(The kind with low range and lack of mobility) to give them some more survivability. It also would create more decision-making within the game(Get when ahead to not die? Get it when behind to survive? Would it work out to get it if equal? Such things). Once BT is a solid "defensive" item, I think it really would make the world better for ADCs and more interesting. The main problem with that, though: It is difficult to create such an item, and thats where some ideas could come in handy. I think BT should be a defensive item giving an above-average amount of lifesteal and a good chunk of AD+a defensive passive that rewards good ADC-play in some way.
: Bloodthirster Changes Ideas and Thoughts
Your ideas are... The right direction, but not an elegant way to solve the current "problems" I say. You grasp the problem but do not fix them with that certain finesse, if you know what you mean - you go for very obvious routes, which is okay in and of itself, but I am sure there is a more elegant way to solve "BT". On the matter at hand: Correct, current shield mechanic serves next to no purpose. Snowballey if ahead(Due to being.. well ahead+more defense - a scary combination), not good if behind(Due to enemy probably being too aggressive to keep the shield up) and generally outclassed if equal. But what I find more important: What *should* be the Bloodthirster's focus? What should be it's "expertise"? Other items have clearer use cases: IE for the BIG damage, like a Rabadons. Mercurial against problematic CC and problematic magic damage. BotRK for more AA reliant ADCs Essence Reaver for skill and/or mana-reliant ADCs List goes on, of course. But what does current BT do? Does it give meaningful defenses? No, only in a snowballing scenario, actually. The defense is, generally, not meaningful at all, while there are equally good sources of lifesteal. Does is give meaningful offense? Yeah sure but.. Simply outclassed. Does it give an exceptional amount of lifesteal? Well it gives lifesteal.. So it has that going for it. Is the array of stats incredibly good or something(like with BotRK)? Well.. it's okay, but nothing exceptional. So, generally, it is neither regarded as good offensive, good defensive, good lifesteal, good "synergy" or even niche buy. Not useful when behind, not useful when equal, not all that useful when ahead. So the first order of business: Define this items' role. Without doing that, one cannot come to a conclusion. More of a defensive item? Snowballing item? Focus on lifesteal or on flat AD? Very high, moderate or low cost? Good buy when behind or not? Some niche synergy/counter? Lots of options to consider. But I am no good ADC, so I let others decide what BT should be.
: I've always had ideas for Sona since season 4 was introduced, because her "utility scalings" are little to useless. You get it on her E activation and her power chords. It's not noticeable, and it's hardly useful. One way to keep Sona as she is, but make her more viable, is to introduce scalings on her auras, based off of how Sona builds. Nerf the bases, and give them ratios. Q aura scales off of AP, W aura scales off of her armor and MR, E scales off of her bonus MS. Ultimate could probably be kept the same. They could just generally make her Q a more support like ability as well that provides some sort of debuff to enemies. It's an awkward ability.
You should not forget, however: While her abilities are rather unnoticeable, they have an immense strength - especially her auras. One cannot just put too much artificial gold on 1 cheampion - it is much easier than you may believe to overpower Sona. After thinking a bit about it, I must say... I think the Aura's should be removed. This would open up her power-budget for some fancy moves. With the removed "permanent" effect, we can focus on the "immediate" effect.Just to give a plain example: If her Q would buff her allies AD and AP by a high amount for a short time, it would surely be much more noticeable than her aura is. Additionally, this allows us to give her auras a bit more flashy visuals without overloading the screen(Flashy visuals on a permanent aura, for example, would overload the screen quickly). This would create clarity, noticeability and more interesting use-cases. This is just an example, though - but I think you get the idea. Reworking her Auras into immediate instead of permanent effects, to increase noticeability and clarity without overloading the screen or changing her identity. Funnily enough, the example I gave would have a few nifty features: Sona, on herself, can't quite use the extra AP for offense, as her main-damage spell would be gone in that time. However, she would have an even increased synergy with Lichbane/use of passive. To comment on your idea: AP Scaling for offense - makes sense and I would not have lots of qualms with it. However... MR/Armor scaling? As I think of Sona as more of a damage orientated support, especially with additional AP scalings on he utility, I find it difficult to properly itemize for that. The reason an AP-bruiser build is not exactly viable on Sona is also obvious: Such a build has a bit of a gold requirement to get an sufficient amount of AP and Defense. One must assume that as a support, you wont have that much G. MS-scaling: This is actually a decent idea. Bonus MS comes with Lichbane and Twin Shadows, which are rather good on Sona. Definitely worth a thought. It would be interesting to also see the MS scaling attached to the slow.
: the point is ppl starts to build bruiser kha'zix, and Riot nerfed kha cuz of that. Therefore ppl cant play assassin kha anymore
People assassinated others with a bruiser build - he still works well enough, though, I agree that he just does not find a good spot...
: I certainly agree with sheen being powerful on her, but I still believe that Sona's Q and damage output isn't rewarding or skillful. Her Q is auto-targeted and while sheen can give you that "OOMF...whoa I just chunked half their health!" feeling you get, the abilities by themselves should feel rewarding enough and fun to play with. Sona's Q is very, very basic and doesn't really require much thinking to use it. "Am I in range? Q." Sona is very position-intensive due to her frailty, as you stated. And her frailty isn't something I really have a problem with, as she can still dominate lane no matter who she's facing, especially at level 1 with Q-passive combo. Spellthief's, autoattack, gg lane is won. But I'm thinking that this playstyle isn't very fun, and while I LOVE Sona and I'm very attached to her (she got me into supporting, I love her concept, she's amazing, etc. etc. etc.), I do think she needs a little "more" to her Q. Something that makes it more mindful. As one of my diamond ELO friends says, who has just as much of a hard-on for Sona as I do, Sona is mindless. She doesn't require much skill to play and she doesn't have a high skill cap. While it's good that she's easy to use for newer players, more experienced players don't feel rewarded when using her. And that ties into my other points, like lack of clarity and weak E, etc. etc. She isn't a rewarding champion as she is right now. Plus I only build all that AP on Sona if we're super dominating our lane and it looks like a safe bet. Other times I go finished GP5, sightstone, mikael's, boots of whatever. Only leaves 2 spots open for situational items, and normally that results in something tanky to sustain in fights, or Ardent Censer. But occasionally I do get Frozen Gauntlet as it is VERY obnoxious on Sona, and makes it so you don't have to use her E as often (making W the main viable pick, or Q if it's not needed which actually makes Q useful outside of laning). EDIT: Also lich bane isn't particularly useful when you don't have much AP, since the nerfs. They buffed champions who typically buy it, but they didn't buff Sona because, in my opinion (so don't quote me on this), Riot didn't want her to become another support-goes-mid-and-dominates situation like with Lulu and Soraka. Unless you have a Rabadon's or 120 AP item, it isn't as damaging as it used to be by itself. :(
I am partly speaking from experience. And I have quite a lot of experience with Sona, seeing as she is what I could call my main support. And thus, I do not believe my experience is terribly warped.. And thus I conclude: Even when I am behind, I still have a meaningful damage output with Sona through use Sheen/Lichbane. Depending on how the game goes, I buy different items of course and if it goes bad, I go for a poor-mans AP build or in other words: A support builds which takes a liking to AP. And this, in combination with Lich Bane, still gives rather rewarding results from my experience. And while people like to say "supports are not supposed to deal damage" - It is most definitely a huge asset to your team. Hence why I like to pick Sona in teams that are weak on damage. Lichbane still seems rather strong to me even with rather little AP, actually. As I mentioned, Morellonomicon+Lichbane gives satisfying damage already - and this is not quite expensive and even affordable when behind. In terms of skillcap.. A good Sona has to be exceptionally opportunistic to land her passive safely in a teamfight, which adds quite a big layer of skill - but generally, she is just a skill-spammer, that is correct. Though, she is pretty fun in dueling scenarios with her high MS through Lichbane and E+Slows+No cast time skills etc. etc. Overall, their is much space for improvement on her. Making her skills less mindless surely is a step into the right direction. However, Sona is more the kind of champion that capitalizes on enemy mistakes rather than her own play, so you got that layer of skill. Underlining: We can agree on that her damage output is rather great and I think you will also agree with me that she her damage output through Lichbane-Morellonomicon is rather meaningful. But I agree with you: A rework to give her more interaction and more clarity would be a step into the right direction. I myself am especially adapt at reworking and stuff, however.. With Sona, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around how to rework her, to be honest. Could you give me an excerpt of your ideas, perhaps?
: Feedback of CURRENT Sona for Rework
I have to heavily disagree on your perception of some of Sona's aspects. First off: Sona's greatest weakness while laning is her frailty. She is and feels exceptionally frail, while her range is not exactly "dominating". Sure, "safe" play is possible by just poking with Q - but one wants to get the passive into the enemy as often as possible, too. This actually creates interesting play, but her downfall is obvious: She is weak to many kill-lanes, which are often favored, while also being not essentially the best choice against many of the early-game ADCs(Like Lucian). Thus, meta simply does not favor her weaknesses too much and she has to be picked with much care(As something like a Leona can just kill an aggressive Sona WAY too quickly). And while supports generally favor less damage-heavy builds, I think Sona is a big exception there. She always has been a support with absurd offensive qualities at the cost of very little gold. I see many Sona's not build towards her strengths. It is obvious that flat AP is important on her(More damage, more heal, more slow), while CDR(For the necessary skillspam) and manareg is mandatory. But many fail to build the most obvious offensive choice: Sheen. I usually enter the real midgame once my build has Tier 2 Gold item, Sightstone, Morellonomicon(For the cheap AP, CDR and Manareg) and Sheen. Latemid to lategame, I shall have my Lichbane finished, too - giving Sona the ability with just these few items to efficiently chunk enemies health down, while still not losing, but rather augmenting, her supportive abilities. As an underlining to my argument: - With a sensible build order that actually includes Sheen and Lichbane later on and that focuses AP/CDR(Morellonomicon seems the perfect choice due to it also being quite cheap), Sona does definitely NOT fall off heavily or feels useless without her ult. Sona is akin to an APC going for the support role(Like Annie, Zyra etc.) - she is one of the supports that bring a good bit of damage to the table and this is an advantage that should not be overlooked. - In lane, her greatest weaknesses are many of the kill-lanes just as ADCs which are very powerful early on - also, the all-present Caitlyn is a nuisance to her due to Caits high range. Thus, Sona has more of a problem with typical meta-picks. - A good Sona has not such a boring "just Q" play as you described. Her strength is her quite powerful passive and expert use of Sheen, which makes her poke truly scary, but not as easy to use due to her frailty. Thus, a non-passive Sona actually has quite some avenues of play - while her passive play is really non-interactive, but... Most passive play is anyway, so this is not a problem. - Stopping to see her as a "pure support" but more of a "utility-mage", one realizes her true strength. She has great supportive abilities, even if they are not blessed with clarity(The miniheals are meaningful, the mini-speedboost often is, too etc. etc... But it's just not that noticeable). And in addition to these, she has a surprising amount of damage with VERY few items - and this gold-efficiency makes her shine as a more damage-orientated support. So, these are my qualms with your reasoning. I do agree on most of the other points, though(Lack of clarity/E is very weak, especially on early levels its virtually useless safe for the stun/Her auras are extremely powerful in theory, but just not all that noticeable in practice). But you heavily underrestimate her damage output as it seems.. Maybe try it out, go for Tier 2 Gold item->Sightstone->Sheen->Morellonomicon. This "core build" is quickly achieved as it is rather cheap and gives you a lot of damage early-mid. Later into the game, you will want to get your 40% CDR full, get boots of course and a Lichbane - the powerspike she gets with Lichbane is something especially noticeable.
: 1) Skarner doesn't need to go manaless, that much I know. Having to manage his resource a little is a good way to gate the power he does have. Making him manaless would probably require the loss of his passive, which I have grown to like. (On a side note, you can search the forums for a "this is what a manaless skarner looks like" and find a thread I did) His mana costs just need to be toned down a little bit. As I stated, more damage nerfs means I have to be in the fight longer and I have to spam my skills more. My proposed solution is thus: Q- Isn't bad currently, but it is the skill you spam most, so lowering it just a tad more wouldnt be bad. Something like 12/14/16/18/20. W- Its fine late game... Easy solution, have this spell scale in cost to what it costs currently. So make it scale something like: 40/45/50/55/60. Still costs a good amount for late game, but by then you should have built some items. E- Currently it costs 50/55/60/65/70... Now, we just cut its damage AND ratios in half... Why not cut the mana costs in a similar fashion? 25/30/35/40/45. R- This still hasn't gotten the Ult treatment that so many others have: 100 at all ranks please? 2)Skarner's late game isn't a huge problem. He isn't top tier by any stretch of the means, but he scales really well with items. Though the nerfs do hurt his late game a little bit, they REALLY hurt his early game, making getting to late game that much harder. 3) Im not sure I agree he has TOO little damage. Currently, I think his damage overall is in a decent spot. I carried a game recently 14/4/4 and was not 1st, not 2nd, but 3rd! on my team for damage dealt to champs and I think 2nd to total damage dealt. I think the damage nerf on E was uncalled for, since now I can't reliably last hit minions with it, but I will adapt, and be satisfied if I can get some mana fixes. My worry right now is that a small dmg nerf will not change anything, and RIOT will find something else to kick without reverting the damage. Again, mostly offended that NOTHING is being given in return for nerfs. 4) Itemizing for Skarner isn't too hard I think. I have 2 builds I use for him that provide him with max CDR decent tank stats, and a spell blade. Its pretty solid overall, but again, I can only think of 2 effective ways to build him, so... if you mean there aren't many item paths for skarner, I agree, and am fine with that. Overall, I think Skarner is still gated to hard early game: Mana, Damage, Kiting, CC, there is just too much hitting him early level right now. Just removing the mana gating would make him a lot more consistent. Less, dare I say, feast or famine? Especially if not in the jungle, or with a mid lane who needs blue buff. 3 out of 4 is manageable.
1) Manalessness would simply make sense on Skarner, which is why I brought it up. Ressource management really is not much of a factor for him(It boilds down to: Dont use W all the time to run around and don't use E while farming the jungle). Manalessness would make sense on Skarner, as he cannot just mindlessly spam his skills... the problem is: Being in a position to mindlessly spam his skills is the difficult. And well, a champion that could just as well be manaless could definitely take some mana-reductions without actually "buffing" him.. it would feel more like "fixing" him. Generally, I more or less agree with your change list. Mana would become a non-factor to Skarner then, but I would be completely fine with that. 2) This is true, too. However, I think Skarner needs at least a little help lategame, too - because if he is not ahead, he really has some trouble being satisfying in a teamfight - which is not a necissity. 3) The damage on E is really atrocious and I do not find there to be any reason to kick his damage on THAT ability. I think, for the most part, his damage-output is good enough, except for his E. Other than that, I find his scalings a tad lackluster, given the fact that Skarner tends to not build a lot of AD/AP anyways, stronger scalings would help buffing his lategame ever so slightly, while also giving him a better transition. 4) Look at Skarner and theorize a bit: Due to his AS steroid and AA-reliancy, AD and AS are naturally good on him. His main damage output - Q - scales with AD and AP. His shield, E and R scale with AP. So both AD and AP benefit him. He needs a good amount of defense to stay alive - tank stats are a given for him. CDR works well on him and is always welcome, even though not a necissity. Spellblade is necessary for him to work correctly, as is a good amount of movement speed. Theoretically, items like Gunblade or Nashor's Tooth seem very good on him, but he just does not have space for them. Overall, if Skarner E would scale with AD instead of AP and giving his shield a health-scaling(So he does not need to be picky with tank-stats, like they did with Naut shield) would accomplish a lot to smoothen his builds, growth and transition in-game etc. etc. This is a problem that has always been present but completely ignored - and while it may not seem as especially "problematic", fixing this problem would make it much easier to balance out his damage-output across the board, his build paths etc. etc.
: General consensus on Quill coat line?
It REALLY grinds my gears that SotAG lost it's tenacity. It locks on down to Mercs as boot choices on tank junglers, which is a great nuisance. No Ninja Tabi, no Boots of Mobility... This is a big one. Additionally, the cost increase to machete is quite... unnecessary and simply nerfs any weak early junglers - the loss of 1 pot is essentially 150 health less, which is really, really annoying. Additionally, I cannot start with Machete+Pinl+Normal Ward/2 Pots anymore - i like doing that on especially sustained junglers that do not need pots, like Aatrox or Fiddle. Furthermore, the lack of choice is a nuisance. I like to choose which jungle item I get while I have the spirit stone... Quill Coat ruins that possibility and this is quite a nuisance. Next on, lack of manasustain is a great nuisance. Adding more manasustain wont particulary overpower any champion, but just make their jungling/ganking smoother. A straight buff in that aspect would be welcome. While I like the % Bonus Health, I personally think it is placed.. wrongly. It is a strong effect for defensive builds and health stackers, up to par to Rabadons % Bonus on APCs.. And its on a damn jungle item. Such an effect should be placed on a more accessible item. It still is an interesting idea in terms of lategame scaling for tank junglers, but the thing is... Tank Junglers are reknown for their cost-efficiency. They really do not need much gold to be effective and generally scale very well into mid and late due to their cost-efficiency. So I just cannot quite grasp the reason for this addition on a jungle item. So yeah, the item works as is but I have lot of problems with it and it definitely is not in a "good" place right now. Its quite nice and fancy, but thats it.
: If Skarner must be nerfed AGAIN...
I think you hit the spot. Skarner needs some serious reconsideration in some aspects. To make them clear: 1. Manaproblems, as you repeatedly mentioned. He is WAY too mana-dependant. Actually, I myself wonder how a manaless Skarner would work out: He is pretty much full-melee. If you are not in the enemies' Face, you do next to nothing. For champions like this, manaless-ness is a viable option - look at other manaless champions.. Most of them are also gated by their "full-melee" status. The only problem I'd see with full-melee Skarner would be his itemization options, though... IBG would be much less attractive, just as FH would be. One can stomach the loss on Trinity, but on FH and IBG not. However, manalessness is still worth a thought in his case. 2. Lategame. His Lategame shouldn't suffer - it never was particulary great and starts to fall into "weak" with all these nerfs. And this is plain bad and uncalled for. 3. Damage. Personally, I think Skarner actually has too little damage at this point. I mean, they nerfed his damage numerous times already and it really hurts him. His E does next to no damage which is plainly... uncalled for. Never dealt a lot of damage but like this, it could also straight-out deal NO damage. His Q1 is incredibly weak... And also, the Q mechanic(charging) doesnt make sense anymore without the extra-slow attached to Q2. One should actually remove that mechanic altogether I think - as it serves next to no purpose anymore. 4. Itemiztion. Something I always had a problem with: Skarner, theoretically, needs too many stats. General tank stats, Movement SPeed, CDR, Mana, Spellblade, AS, AD and even AP. One should take a look at Skarner's abilities and give him some more consistency in terms of scaling aand try to tune down the need for what he "needs". For example, giving him more AD scalings or defensive-stat scalings would work out nicely - and in the end, Skarner would be easier to balance, as he would have a more consistent itemization and "growth" in game, making it easy to keep his lategame balanced while giving him more powerspikes early. Anyway, let me know what you think about my qualms with our favorite scorpion.
: I greatly dislike the changes for machete
I think they should simply move the cost back to 300g, so one can afford a fifth pot. I see no reason for them not to do it, as Machete gives nothing more than jungling-prowess, it is okay to be such a cheap item.
: I agree, I think essence reaver was something to essentially made to replace the old BT; to be something specifically for Marksmen that are more like AD casters. However, with it not being a BF item it's kind of hard to justify buying it. The stats are pretty lackluster, along with the price. As for the new BT, I like the *idea* of it as a defensive item (similar to {{item:3157}} for APC's) however since the lifesteal was hit and the shield isn't for all that much it isn't really a glamorous pick. (While {{item:3157}} is a great pick for APC's) Although the marksmen class has {{item:3139}}, which is a great defensive item for their role, the question stands of whether we need a second equally as powerful defensive items that still provides damage or if BT will remain a "jack of all trades but a master at none" kind of item. It provides OK amounts of lifesteal, damage, and safety, but none of the stats make it particularly attractive as a big item purchase.
Mercurial gives a different kind of defense, though. It defends against CC and magical damage to an extent. It has a high cost, too. BT gives a whole palette of defenses(Shield essentially protects against all kinds of damage, as lifesteal does, too). However, this "Master of none"-aspect is interesting. Lets assume the following: If Essence Reaver gets to a viable state, you say BT would be left out as "weak" due to not being particulary good at anything. That begs the question: Which aspect needs more power and where can we take that power from? Overall, I still argue that there are too many sources of lifesteal in this game. BT, BotRK and Essence Reaver seem to be the main choices for ADC's... However, none of these 3 really focus on Lifesteal. If one would take the Lifesteal from Essence Reaver and maybe rework BotRK a bit(Which has been a general necissity for a few months, as it plainly is too good on too many champions, which rules out health-stacking builds and thus, leads to a general unviability of a number of champions), one could then redefine Bloodthirster as the heaviest lifesteal item for ADC's, giving great amounts of lifesteal, the passive shield and some AD to work with. How would such a route pan out, I wonder?
: Caitlyn's new splash
I do not think many will agree with you, simply because they compare to the old splash art. And while I admire your way of flowerful talk about the old splash art, it was actually really... boring. There is not much to it compared to newer splash-arts. In other words: A new splash art is necessary. However...! I actually agree with most of your qualms about the new splash art. Giving her that certain, as you put it, "suave" look she always had would certainly fit a lot better to Caitlyn and this is an important point. Not too mention that I always found Caitlyn to be particulary sexed up for no clear reason, the new splash art exacerbates said "problem". I do like sexed up Women.. As long as it actually makes some "sense" and fits the champion well - which it does not really do for Caitlyn.
: Ancient Golem - Unintended Effects
Completely agree. Personally, I also like Boots of Swiftness on Sejuani(Due to synergy with her passive) and Hecarim(Due to his synergy with flat MS). However, I'd actually lose the ability to buy Tenacity on BOTH of those, which is rather devastating. Boots of Swiftness are generally frowned upon - but they are not as Bad as people make them out to be, per se. They cam be really effective against teams with lots of slows, or on heavily MS reliant champions.
: I think because of this,the Marksman role needs more options in terms of lifesteal items.  {{item:3153}} is really the only viable option at the moment, which puts champs with high AD ratios in an awkward position. Auto-attack based Marksmen have a distinct advantage.
This is.. possible. However, seeing as the ADC role is generally defined by their AA-reliancy, it is difficult to make a definite statement in this case. I think the Essence Reaver was meant to amend that problem, but it simply does not quite do due to being generally considered a bad item. Which leads to: If Essence Reaver would be up to par to, lets say, BotRK in terms of viability - Isn't it possible that BT would actually be good again as a defensive choice?
: Not entirely relevant but I've started playing Blade of the Ruined King into Black Cleaver Miss Fortune. Underrated champion currently. This two item combo has a nice mix of lifesteal, attack speed, armor penetration and utility. Tanks should melt and her AOE is still strong. Need more testing where I get less fed to judge appropriately. It's just a slightly different take on the Bork/Ghostblade builds I've seen. BT is just so bad now everyone's replaced it with Bork and moved on.
BotRK is a problematic item... I think it was designed as a niche item for on-hit champions and as a health-stacking/tank counter, but it evolved into a semi-core item for many, many champions, especially ADCs. I'd wonder how it would look like if BotRK would be reworked to fit it's niche-role and not be a core on everything.. Also, Black Cleaver on ADCs may generally be regarded as "bad" - but for ADC's how rely more on their abilities, are able to place multiple shreds quickly and/or on multiple targets and in a more AD-oriented teamcomp, I think the item actually is very effective. Sure, it is a bit of a niche item - especially on ADC's - but that does not render it automatically "Bad" on all of them.
: Please change the Bloodthirster
First off, I would like to point out a certain something: Most people still compare the new BT to the old BT - and that is a great flaw. Old BT was a powerful offensive item, giving top-notch AD for it's cost and a good amount of lifesteal. This leads to the following: It bolstered up your offense greatly AND bolstered up your defense/dueling power greatly, especially on botlane, which is not all that bursty in general - making lifesteal an effective defensive stat there. New BT has an entirely different role and should thus not be compared to the old BT. New BT is now more of a defensive item, designed for a very offensive class(Sort of like Zhonya's is - giving strong defenses through it's active and a bit through stats, but also giving top-notch AP). Thus, if you treat new BT like old BT, you will be disappointed. New BT is a sensible buy when behind for extra safety through shield+lifesteal+some AD to work with. Sadly, I cannot be as detailed on this topic as I usually am, as ADC is by far my least favored role... However, when talking about it, it is mandatory to discard the mindset you had for old "BT" and view it as a defensive item - in fact, this is both important in game and in discussion. The question is not "How does it compare to old BT?" but rather "Does it fulfill it's role as a defensive choice for ADCs?"
: I don't really think it needs a straight buff, but could use a stronger niche. Right now it's more a stat check item. Either the enemy has enough damage to burst/poke you down or they don't. It doesn't have any situations where it's the clear stronger choice. I think they should play up the regen effect and make Warmogs an anti-poke item for tanks, and characters who want to play meat shield. While it currently provides a good hp buffer vs burst damage, health/resistance items will give you more effective hp against the damage type you'd want to itemize against and generally have better combat passives. I would switch the health regen to work only when out of combat but stronger than it currently is either in general or stronger depending on how low your health is. Any real buff to Warmogs should probably include making the extreme hp gain a unique passive. Like 500 hp + unique passive: gain 500 hp, or unique passive: +25% bonus hp, making it a late game replacement for spirit of the ancient golem, or a hp stacking choice for laning champions.
Turning it into an anti-poke item wouldn't necessarily solve it's underlying problems(All present % damage through BotRK; Itemization issues; Lack of fringe benefits; Niche-Item) - but it certainly would be interesting. Generally, though, we already have an Anti-Poke-esque item with Banshee's Veil and it's passive healthregen.
: I sorta agree with you, currently the item gives you some 30 mana each 5 seconds. Its a step in the right direction but it turns out it promotes some quite bad gameplay 1. Junglers run out of mana 2. Jungler walks into jungle and kills all but 1 enemy. 3. Jungler sits there for 30 secs allowing the 1 monster to hit him just to get 6*30 mana restored. I haven't tried the item enough yet though, it may just be that my Sejuani needed some more actual Mana items, but even then I believe the issue would still stand.
Barring the FH line, there are not many mana items and no manaregen items for tanks.. Chalice or Tear are both not suitable for Tank-builds, while FH and Iceborne tend to be bought a tad later.. Tanks have the most manaproblems early game and this is where SotAG should kick in as a manafixer for the jungle. Also, I really wonder why riot does not go the obvious route... Take all tank junglers and buff them in terms of stats and manacosts. Most cannot be laned well anyway, so there would not be any problem. Giving tank junglers more armor early, maybe buffing the earliest levels of their abilities(or at least their main ability), granting them some more manaregen and/or reducing their ability-costs... Maybe give them some more base health on early levels and/or more healthregen. Such changes would not affect their overall powerlevel aside from fixing their jungle issues where it's necessary. It seems to be the most obvious, most elegant way of solving tank-jungle problems, but they kinda just do not do it.
: For Warmogs, one have to consider a few things... 1. How cost-effective is the item now? 2. For what kinds of builds/champions has Warmogs been designed? By asking these two questions, one has clear results.. The item is very cost effective - the health alone is worth around 2,7k gold. And while one may argue that health-regen is a really weak stat, you usually shoot up to around 3000 health with Warmogs alone+Defensive masteries and an appropriate level, which equals to 30 health regen... Which means, if you survive for a decent amount - lets say 20 seconds - in a fight, you get another bonus of 120 health through healthregen in that time - which is quite a value. Thus one can conclude: Warmogs is very cost-effective and it's health regen usually has very good use in-fight even, especially if combined with other tanky-healthregen items or continuous self-healing effects(Like Zac blobs, Aegis or Spirit visage). The effective health Warmogs grants you within a fight can be really high, especially if the fight drags on. But if only cost-effectivity would matter, Atma's Impaler would be top-notch item. So lets answer question 2... Warmogs is designed for exactly 2 cases: Case 1: Health-Stackers. This is rather obvious: If you scale with health, you buy a lot of health - and Warmogs regen effect scales with health, too, while giving it at top-notch efficiency. Just as a scenario: If you have around 4k health and survive for 25 seconds in a fight, Warmogs grants you extra health through health-regen equal to 200... This is a damn load. Case 2: Build-Paths that lack health. Prime example would be Galio, I'd say: His Core is pretty much Chalice->Mercs->Abyssal, simply as these items synergize so well with Galio and give him such massive early-midgame power. Galios go-to Armor item is Frozen Heart: He lacks armor so far, making such a heavy armor item a rather optimal choice. The Aura should be once on every team anyway, mana is welcome and CDR is very welcome. So... That are 4 item-slots without ANY health - And one may argue that Spirit Visage+Randuins/sunfire does not grant him enough health to efficiently tank lategame(Only about 3k health for a tank is a bit low). This makes Warmogs an interesting choice. After answering these two questions, one can already deduce: Warmogs is meant to be more of a Niche item. Health, by itself, does not counter anything, except some of these True-Damage champions(Which are admittedly few). Randuins counters AAers, Sunfire buffs up your offense, Locket grants a neat Aura, Spirit Visage synergizes with self-healing etc. etc. All of these items have certain fringe benefits tacked onto them, while Warmogs is really straight forward - it makes you tankier against everything and scales on health, the most basic tanking stat. Due to it's simplicity, it is often overlooked even when it could be effective. But now, lets look at it's problems... And I see 2 of them: 1. Blade of the Ruined King. Meant to counter health-stacking, it surely counters Warmogs. Now, the problem is not it's existence, but that people always build it, as it is such a strong item. Most ADCs build it and many, many bruisers do. This means: Health-stacking builds will always be countered. There is also Liandry's, which is built on a number of champions in any case due to synergy. 2. Build Path. Even healthstackers need some Resistances. And while getting Warmogs is appealing to them, they just lack the space for it. For example, as jungle-Zac: Boots/Spirit of the Ancient Golem/Spirit Visage/Sunfire or Randuins/Aegis/Thornmail, sunfire or randuins This gives the resistances you need, a good lot of health, important CDR, utility, counterbuilds etc. etc. You'll find it hard to substitute any item for a Warmogs. Take on of the armor items away? Seems like you lack armor. Take one of the MR items away= You'll probably find your magic resistence quite lacking. So the problem is not it's cost efficiency, but rather it's simplicity - and of course, the all present BotRK.
To conclude this wall of text, I think a correct direction would be this: 1. Rework BotRK somehow to make it less appealing. Right now, it is used on an uncountable sum of champions and most ADCs... It seems like it was meant to be a counter-item, but... It is just a go-to item(Like a Bloodthirster is, for example). By making it less appealing(For example, reducing it's cost and the stats), it turns from "go-to item" into "Counter-item" - you'll buy it if you wish to counter a healthstacker or if your kit synergizes extremely well with BotRK, which would be a niche case. The drawback you suffer is simple: YOu have a cheap item in your build, overall "weakening" it to an extent. To demonstrate this: Morellonomicon is on most AP mids considered a rather weak item, as there are better options - buying such a cheap item also leads to a weaker progression in terms of damage spikes and such... However, it could still prove invaluable against a self-healing opponent like a Swain. Counterbuilding should have some drawbacks - BotRK has none. 2. In terms of changes to Warmogs itself, I am unsure. By adding resistances(Armor/MR) to it, one would kill the concept it has... Adding Fringe benefits to it(CDR, utility etc), one could easily push it to be overpowered, seeing as it already is much more cost efficient than it seems. Buffing it straight out would lead us back to a League of Warmogs - such a simple item as it cannot be simply buffed. So, in short: I would refrain from straight out buffing it, giving it extra resistances or trading the amount of health it gives for resistances... The only thing one could think about: Old Warmogs, which had this ramp-up time - the same thing you suggest. This would probably the most elegant way of pumping a bit more Power into Warmogs without changing it's power level(If Warmogs would start at something like 800-900 health and would ramp up to something like 1200 health, it could be a worthwhile tradeoff). 3. The next thing I would suggest is: Cut down the health on some other items in favor for more resistances. For example: If Locket/banshees/Visage would only give around 200 health or something, but an appropriate amount of MR to compensate... Warmogs would suddenly be more appealing, because there would be itemization options to go with it. The idea is: If you get the resistances you need more easily, one can actually afford to build Warmogs over another resistance item. So well~ I think the changes should not be done to Warmogs, but to other items - so Warmogs can be a more appealing option. And not only Warmogs - health-stacking builds in general, as some champions are geared towards health-stacking. It would also give a few more benefits to the game: By having better itemization options for resistances, one can counterbuild more efficiently if need be - for example, on a manaless champ, it is very difficult to efficiently counterbuild an AD Caster - FH is no options, Thornmail does not all that much against casters, Randuins is more geared towards general tankiness and AA-counter, sunfire cape is too weak a defensive item. Or try to efficiently counterbuild APs: The options for MR may not be limited, but there is a definite lack of a HEAVY MR item, like old FOrce of Nature. And lastly, it would help out against this BotRK dominated game. The item is really everywhere, on any AAing AD one sees, bar a few exceptions. One could actually seperate the item into two - make one optimized for AAers and anther as a health-stacking counter, giving us more variety, build-options while still keeping the sense of BotRK within the game. Anyway, long walls of texts.. hope your eyes do not bleed, but my fingers sure do. I like to give elaborate replies :3
: Warmog's should be buffed
For Warmogs, one have to consider a few things... 1. How cost-effective is the item now? 2. For what kinds of builds/champions has Warmogs been designed? By asking these two questions, one has clear results.. The item is very cost effective - the health alone is worth around 2,7k gold. And while one may argue that health-regen is a really weak stat, you usually shoot up to around 3000 health with Warmogs alone+Defensive masteries and an appropriate level, which equals to 30 health regen... Which means, if you survive for a decent amount - lets say 20 seconds - in a fight, you get another bonus of 120 health through healthregen in that time - which is quite a value. Thus one can conclude: Warmogs is very cost-effective and it's health regen usually has very good use in-fight even, especially if combined with other tanky-healthregen items or continuous self-healing effects(Like Zac blobs, Aegis or Spirit visage). The effective health Warmogs grants you within a fight can be really high, especially if the fight drags on. But if only cost-effectivity would matter, Atma's Impaler would be top-notch item. So lets answer question 2... Warmogs is designed for exactly 2 cases: Case 1: Health-Stackers. This is rather obvious: If you scale with health, you buy a lot of health - and Warmogs regen effect scales with health, too, while giving it at top-notch efficiency. Just as a scenario: If you have around 4k health and survive for 25 seconds in a fight, Warmogs grants you extra health through health-regen equal to 200... This is a damn load. Case 2: Build-Paths that lack health. Prime example would be Galio, I'd say: His Core is pretty much Chalice->Mercs->Abyssal, simply as these items synergize so well with Galio and give him such massive early-midgame power. Galios go-to Armor item is Frozen Heart: He lacks armor so far, making such a heavy armor item a rather optimal choice. The Aura should be once on every team anyway, mana is welcome and CDR is very welcome. So... That are 4 item-slots without ANY health - And one may argue that Spirit Visage+Randuins/sunfire does not grant him enough health to efficiently tank lategame(Only about 3k health for a tank is a bit low). This makes Warmogs an interesting choice. After answering these two questions, one can already deduce: Warmogs is meant to be more of a Niche item. Health, by itself, does not counter anything, except some of these True-Damage champions(Which are admittedly few). Randuins counters AAers, Sunfire buffs up your offense, Locket grants a neat Aura, Spirit Visage synergizes with self-healing etc. etc. All of these items have certain fringe benefits tacked onto them, while Warmogs is really straight forward - it makes you tankier against everything and scales on health, the most basic tanking stat. Due to it's simplicity, it is often overlooked even when it could be effective. But now, lets look at it's problems... And I see 2 of them: 1. Blade of the Ruined King. Meant to counter health-stacking, it surely counters Warmogs. Now, the problem is not it's existence, but that people always build it, as it is such a strong item. Most ADCs build it and many, many bruisers do. This means: Health-stacking builds will always be countered. There is also Liandry's, which is built on a number of champions in any case due to synergy. 2. Build Path. Even healthstackers need some Resistances. And while getting Warmogs is appealing to them, they just lack the space for it. For example, as jungle-Zac: Boots/Spirit of the Ancient Golem/Spirit Visage/Sunfire or Randuins/Aegis/Thornmail, sunfire or randuins This gives the resistances you need, a good lot of health, important CDR, utility, counterbuilds etc. etc. You'll find it hard to substitute any item for a Warmogs. Take on of the armor items away? Seems like you lack armor. Take one of the MR items away= You'll probably find your magic resistence quite lacking. So the problem is not it's cost efficiency, but rather it's simplicity - and of course, the all present BotRK.
: Go ahead and read the threads that I listed. There is an idea being kicked around that parallels yours. If Riot made the Essence Reaver like the Tiamat, it would be a mid game AD+mana item and become a late-game lifesteal item by adding a vamp scepter. Considering the nerf to overall amount of LS in the game, I think that it would work fine that way.
I guessed the idea would already have come up, which is why I focus on this lifesteal issue. The issue is not the quality(id est, how much lifesteal you get), but the quantity - on nigh every big AD item, there is lifesteal tacked on. While I do find it quite... unfair that every AD-based champion has such relatively easy access to lifesteal, while APs have very limited to access to spellvamp(And lifesteal feeling much more impactful than spellvamp, too), the problem is that lifesteal ends up on champions which do not even use/need/should have that stat - any kind of AD-Caster esque champion falls into that category. By removing lifesteal from Essence Reaver, the item would feel a lot more suited to AD Casters, while still being a viable options to Casting ADCs - buff up the amount of AD it gives and probably turn the passive less AA-damage based, and you are good to go for both Casting-ADCs and AD Casters.
: Essence Reaver - Feeling so weak
I think most flaws of the item are pretty obvious... Too little mana gained, too expensive to fix your early manaproblems etc. However, a not so obvious flaw..: The lifesteal. Personally, I would not say the item should grant lifesteal - put that budget into the additional managain requested. This would, together with recipe changes, accomplish a number of things: 1. It would give the satisfying manasustain some champions rely on 2. It would be much more open for AD Casters to take - especially the ones heavily gated by mana like Panth or Urgot would love this item. 3. Lifesteal is EVERYWHERE. There so few AD items that do not grant lifesteal.. And this is not necessary. It hurts AD Caster itemization by forcing lifesteal upon them and gives every offensive AD the ability to easily sustain themselves - whereas APs only have very few sources of Spellvamp, which, coincidentally, is a much more niche stat than lifesteal.
: The Champ, Jax
Jax has quite strong base stats, quite strong base damage, quite a number of multipliers in his kit, can build a lot of damage and gets a load of defense for that.. Yeah, he has a lot going for him. Nerfing his base stats makes him more feast/famine - but also a bit less "feast" than before. Additionally, even a feeding Jax will be a force to be reckoned with lategame, simply due to his exteme scaling with his big items. Reducing his base defenses makes him less oppressive if he is ahead(Id est: You can hurt him/stop him a bit better) and forces Jax to maybe opt for a more defensive route instead of just buying his big offensive items. So far, I do not have qualms with these nerfs.
: Let's talk about reworked Maokai
Generally, you speak with sense. I shall elaborate my views: I think the changes go into a good direction, but are... unpolished. Q: The 0,5 seconds on it do not seem to bad, seeing that you got an additional form of CC in your kit now. Do not forget the manacost reductions - Mao was always so DAMN manahungry and these really help him out. W: I need to see how the damage it does pans out, though, it does seem a good bit too low. For the range... It is DEFINITELY too low and thats bad. 550-575 range is MUCH more adequate for it. Manacost reductions and CD reductions are nice, of course... But I think the ability should have a bit more power on early levels and peak out at lvl 5, slowly scaling up - his ganking was made harder AND he lost damage, which is not fair and makes him not do his laning-phase job properly(Ganking the shit out of things). Giving him more damage on early level W would help out a lot in that regard. E: Manacost reductions are welcome once again. Aside from that: What good is a slow if it is not appliable without the target being cc'd before/is on close range? That is my main problem with the slow... Tying it to the difficult to land explosion(at least without CC) makes his ganks a LOT more escapable(together with W changes I mean), ruins his combo(W-E-Walk behind-Q -- You now need to start with E to make up the lost range oftentimes) and to top it off... Cutting his damage down by THAT much is just atrocious. Mao was always known as a rather bursty Tank-Jungler, shining through a rather good amount of burstdamage for such an oppressive CC-force. R: Well, the new R is rather golden. R deals a good bit of damage, but one rarely gets the damage off on multiple targets as it currently stands. New R is MUCH more of a threat. And in terms of protective value: Who is most effective with a reduction like his R gives? Tanky champs. The Frontline, in other words, can use it the most. It eats most damage, has most effective health and is in the most dangerous position. And the new R allows you to do what I have always done with Maokai even better: Protection. His W can be such a strong, strong peeling move - combined with the following R, it now is an even better safety tool. So in short: Q: In light of the changes, I generally have no problem with that change. W: Range is too low, early game damage is too low. Buff the early damage up a slight bit and increase range to around 575 units. E: While it should not peak out as heavily in terms of damage as it does on live, it's early damage is an important factor - buff it up. Additionally/alternatively: Tie the slow to the Impact rather than the explosion, for reliability and consistence. My personal proposition: Make the E slow on impact - 30% for 1 second. This would accomplish a lot already: If you hit the impact, you probably hit the explosion due to the enemy being slowed. Counterplay is created through the delay. I decreased the slowing value, allowing us to pump more(if not as much as live) damage into the ability - together with Q nerf, his CC is still adequate, yet not overpowering - he always was strong in chases and still is, but never was overwhelming in them and should not be. R: Pretty much Golden. I personally think one could pump more damage into R now that the damage has reliability - it would increase Mao's threat, make up for the lost damage and make his R a REAL ganking Powerspike at lvl 6, which most junglers have(Which, in turn, leads to less oppressive pre-6 ganks, which is also not too bad, seeing as Mao is pretty very oppressive if picked intelligently) This is the gist of it... Changes go into the right direction, make him a more interesting champion with more avenues of play and counterplay, yet the changes are unpolished in a number of areas, resulting in counter-intuitive play and strange best case scenarios, especially while ganking. Oh, what I forgot to mention..: I tend to play a more bruiserly Maokai if I get a bit fed early on. W changes+strange best-case scenarios make this a bit difficult now, which is sad.
Rioter Comments
: Rework Nerf/Rework
Akali is not overpowered - she is just extremely simple and straight forward and a very flawed champion. There is not a lot of play involved with her. Aside from basic LoL-skills, you only need to be able to gauge her damage/durability/escapability and make decisions accordingly. Lanes with Akali are usually predetermined to be lost or won, depending on the matchup, due to her extreme simplicity. No skillshots, not a lot of counterplay to her all-in post-6, hard to catch in lane due to stealth. She does not need a nerf, but a full-blown rework which makes her more interesting, able to make real plays and less feast/famine - and also, increase her viability in high-level play.
: Everybody hates Kayle?
I am not too sure about the current nerfs and wether they are really the best way to go or not. However, I think the main problem with Kayle is her perma-E. Counterplay should exist through her "downtime". She should not be gated by mana, but by CD. However, with CDR, it can be on all day and I think that is a problem. I think it should be more of a decision to use E and not just a given as it is now. To change that, without giving her crippling CD's, I would change the CD to X seconds AFTER her E ends. Like this, CDR would never get her into perma-E state and always leave a defined downtime. Especially early into the game, I think the ability is a tad too available - the high damage from it + it's rather low downtime(6 seconds, if I am correct?) make it very difficult to intelligently play against her. A higher downtime on early levels could be a meaningful nerf, while a small downtime on higher levels even with CDR is quite meaningful, too. Other than that, I'd probably remove the E manacost, seeing as it would fit her much better - however, I would revert the R buff and give it a meaningful manacost.. This is important to give more opportunity of play against Kayle. Currently, by having such a safety spell completely ungated by mana, even a manaless Kayle does not have to fear ganks and the like really much - which removes an important bit of counterplay I'd say.
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Lucy Obscuras

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