: > [{quoted}](name=Lowbo,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=QzwOyzht,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-17T21:12:11.616+0000) > Spear of Shojin > > https://imgur.com/a/BOyWks3 > > This item is intended to help champions that build a lot of AD rather than defensive items survive in the middle of teamfights. A lot of champions are capable of bursting one enemy, but the often sacrifice their life to do so. This item will offer survivability in that scenario, enabling them to escape or begin attacking the next target. The range for activation is pretty small, so we’re not expecting this item to be good for most Marksmen. This icon is temporary - new one coming soon! Hi Lowbo. How is the damage reduction on this item coded? Is it coded as a shield or as an actual damage reduction effect like Phantom Dancer? I'd find it unfair if this item can reduce True Damage like Bone Plating can. I really hope this item doesn't reduce True Damage.
This item does not reduce True Damage.
: Jhin's Passive, along with Infernal Drakes, do not change the value of Spear of Shojin.
Hey, this bug should be fixed on today's build - can you let me know if it's still occurring?
: A question: Why isn't Atma's available on ARAM? I've just been playing the PBE and it's not in the shop for ARAM.
That's a good question! I'll enable them, but it won't go through till the next PBE deploy which might be on Monday.
: Will Spear of Shojin's passive work with Illaoi's E. A lot of other things that list champions do and at the moment it doesnt seem to be working. Wanted to get confirmation if it is a bug or not.
No, it doesn't react to the presence of clones.
: I have only 1 question: {{champion:6}} ?
Urgot has been having a lot of success with Atma's in playtests.
: Will AS bruisers such as Aatrox, Shyvana, and Warwick benefit from these items just as much as the AD scaling bruisers? They scale a bit differently compared to most others and how will the Trinity Force champions be adjusted should they perform worse after the Sterak's changes like Irelia, Jax, Camille, etc.?
Bruisers that build a lot of attack speed don't get as much out of Shojin as AD stackers, but it can still be good on them situationally. We've seen Atma's be far more effective on Shyvana and Warwick. Definitely keeping an eye on Triforce champions.
: I put this in another reply below, but I'll ask here as well. Are separate DoTs that are applied by the same ability all reduced separately? If Teemo has Liandry's and you step on a shroom, are you taking flat damage off both the Liandry's and the R tick separately or combined? How does that work for on-hit effects as well? Is it all accumulated then reduced or is each individual component reduced on its own? Does on-hit damage get reduced at all? Or does it only affect the abilities themselves and ability applied DoT damage? Will a Heimerdinger W's non-initial rockets do any damage at all? And is the flat reduction occurring before or after percent reductions like from Adaptive Helm. Seems like they won't if it's taking 19.75 damage off the top for each rocket by just having this item and his rockets are probably doing less than that with 1 item and pre-level 10.
It doesn't react to proc damage (otherwise it would double dip - for example, reducing the damage from an ADC basic attack and then again from a BoRK proc), so it ignores Liandry's. The damage reduction takes place pretty much before anything else - mitigation, Adaptive Helm, etc, making it generally anti-synergistic with other mitigation effects.
: I'm more worried about how dumb this is gonna be against any champion with damage over time abilities getting reduced to near nothing because of the flat damage reduction. If this works for each damage tick of damage over time spells, it's gonna be just another item (coupled with Adaptive Helm) that screws certain champions way more than others. At least give the unique passive the same name or something. Also giving that much damage reduction from all damage types that scales off AD just seems really broken. Especially against anything that needs to deal consistent damage over time or doesn't have that much damage to begin with. I can already see the Teemo vs an Adaptive Helm + Spear of Shojin bruiser being a complete nightmare.
The DR is 30% effective per tick for DoTs. It's definitely strong against that type of damage, but doesn't invalidate it.
: Spear of Shojin doesnt see Illaoi E as champion.
This is not a bug - Spear of Shojin does not count clones - so Shaco, Leblanc, etc don't count as two champions.
: Isn't the damage reduction passive on Spear of Shojin way too strong against champions that relies on many small ticks of damage? For instance I'm an Anivia main, and if the passive works on every individual tick of my ultimate it'll basically be nullified. Is there a way to normalize it so it's not vastly superior against either damage over time or burst damage? Either by having an internal cooldown or making it percentage reduction? Also, does it affect stuff like Liandry's damage?
It's 30% less effective on damage over time - it's strong against those effects, but definitely doesn't nullify them. It doesn't react to proc damage (otherwise it would double dip - for example, reducing the damage from an ADC basic attack and then again from a BoRK proc), so it ignores Liandry's.
: Spear of Shojin MUST BE melee only or adc will abuse it like they do with sterak in the juggernaut rework.
We're definitely prepared to adjust if Marksmen prove to be dominant with this item, but so far we've found that if an ADC is within 500 range of 3 enemy champions they're pretty dead regardless.
: Hello, back at the day where Gnar and Frozen mallet for Range users i think Riot repertoir or some other guy told that Frozen Mallet probably needs or gets soon a compelete rework in itembuildpath and how it works, so that it is not always so problematic and diffrent in powerplay between range and melee. Discussion happened when iteration was testet between nerf to 15%, no nerf and when finaly it got nerfed to 20%. Is still something happeneing to frozen mallet or is it on "frozen" ice? ;)
No changes to Mallet as of right know. We tried a couple of ideas but nothing stuck.
: In your tests, roughly what % of all damage has it been blocking in teamfights? Who have you been using it on successfully, and who hasn't gotten good use out of it? I'm much more concerned about it on assassins that _don't_ usually get defensive items than on fighters that do. 500 range sounds like a good spot, but I'm still concerned w/r/t Draven and Kaisa.
Generally, without Dragon Heart, the item gives the equivalent of 15-20 Armor/MR, and while Dragon Heart is active it's more like 40-50. Can definitely understand worry about ADCs with this item - we'd prefer not to add a melee bonus mechanic, but will do so if necessary.
: This is a really good start but I believe there should be more itemizations. For instance, there is only one upgrade from executioners calling, and that is a dedicated tank busting item. How about executioners calling + damage/AS so that you can have an option for grievous wounds without committing to tank busting? How about a serrated dirk + health item so that bruisers who want an extra oomph in their damage can get it without having to pay for mobility (youmuus), stealth burst (duskblade), or a spell shield (edge of night). A dirk + HP item could be the option for champions like renekton that like the stat but don't really care about typical assasin attributes. How about an item that has a unique active that let's you deal significantly increased damage at the cost of damaging yourself with recoil? These are some ideas. I'm just trying to get across 2 points here: one, more items in the game is a good thing, especially stat mixes we haven't seen before because it helps craft better itemization based on the game state. The second point, which is more important, is that unique actives/passives can help bruisers have more of an impact. When a mage buys a zhonya, the game state changes because they can play the teamfights better, since they can delay and get another spell rotation. When an ADC gets RFC + Shiv, they can poke towers and waveclear, allowing for better sieges, and they can kite in teamfights better. When a tank gets stoneplate or warmogs, they can make more aggressive engages and not be as punished for it. The point is, other classes' items let's them fundamentally change how they play. Right now melees just go triforce+steraks to get a bunch of stats. The items posted are nice, but I don't see how they can fundamentally alter the way melee bruisers can interact in a fight.
The Mortal Reminder changes in 8.11 (%Bonus Armor pen >>> % Total Armor Pen) make the item vastly more useful against non-tanks, so we didn't feel the need to add another Grievous Wounds items. Re: changing fight styles - that's a fair point, though we've seen some good results with these items. For Spear of Shojin - a lot of those champs just burst one character and then either have to run or just die themselves. This item helps them kill one target and then switch to the next and carry the whole teamfight. With Atma's - a lot of those champions feel like they have nothing to do besides soak damage after they use their combo in a teamfight. Atma's lets them continue to contribute by ramping their threat level.
: Atmas returns! Mundo's going to love this. Trundle too and quite a few others. I'm looking forward to trying it. Wasn't this initially removed because you feared the combination of tankiness + damage? What changed to make it easier to balance? Is it because ADCs will be stronger vs late game tanks anyway in 8.11? BTW: Why are the Hydra items being nerfed and made less slot efficient? Those are core for a fighter's late game. If you just want them to be cheaper, why aren't we getting 35g per AD lost or at least 30ish?
Atma's was originally removed because it encouraged a non-interactive strategy - you could stonewall the lane by building tank items without paying for it later because you became a scaling monster as soon as you built Atma's. The important details with this version are that it doesn't help you waveclear, and doesn't help you burst - you must spend time interacting with enemy champions to get any use out of the item. We've found that the Hydra changes are buffs, not nerfs, but our view could change with more data. Slot efficiency turned out to be less important than just hitting your spikes faster. This is why the items have taken a slight efficiency hit.
: Spear of Shojin, with those numbers, seems beyond absurd. The combine cost is only 900 to get +25 AD (gold value of 875) and that passive, which seems incredibly strong. Even if it was ONLY 10dmg per attack, that's worth a hefty amount of armor, and should be priced accordingly. Imagine a champ with both Death's Dance and this item. You can basically just waddle into the middle of their team, soak infinite damage despite building pure AD, then regenerate it all back. It's so good I don't even think it would be a "Fighter" item, outside of Riven: imagine it on Talon, or Draven, or Pyke. You add this to a pure-AD build and presto chango, you're a tank now. Pyke with just this item and DD, and zero HP or AD from anything else, is going to block 33.9 damage _per attack and ability_ in a 1v1, and over 100 in important teamfights. That's in addition to DD mitigation, and it lasts for six seconds, and when anyone on the opposing team dies (don't worry, they will!) it refreshes. Absolutely bonkers. If you want to keep the item as powerful as that, here's my feedback: add a Pickaxe to the recipe, and price it at 3500 or something. I also don't think it building out of Kindlegem makes any sense; the design of the passive says, "save all my stuff for teamfights every 90s," and CDR says "use all my important stuff more often." (Plus, it seems like every single item nowadays has CDR on it.) Maybe build out of BF + Pickaxe + Cloth, and the armor from Cloth "turns into" the passive. I could also see some frustrating times when players randomly have three enemies in the area, auto once, and they waste the passive for the next minute and a half. (I assume it still triggers if there's one enemy visible and two hiding in a brush?) I know that y'all are justifiably nervous about adding even more actives, but this item really feels like an active to me. It could be a big, ult-like moment for the user, especially combined with a cool visual effect. Alternatively, maybe more restrictions on when it triggers: what if you have to deal at least [x] damage for it to trigger, or you have to be in _melee range_ of three champions? Maybe that last part is in it already, it's not specific. Atma's Reckoning seems cool and not particularly problematic, and your art rules. Hope you found this constructive! (this is the pbe account of KillGoldfish, I've done game design writing about League and other games, woohoo self-plug)
We haven't found the item to be that strong at this tuning, but we're definitely prepared to make changes with more data. The idea is to tempt champions that are ahead into more aggressive builds - this item makes you tankier, especially when Dragon Heart is active, but nowhere near the tankiness you get out of even one defensive item. The activation paradigm is pretty restrictive - it's 500 range, and I haven't yet seen a situation where you have 3 enemy champions within 500 range and you don't want to get use out of the item. Melee range would make it almost impossible for it to trigger. The item actually was an active for a long part of development, but it ran into a core problem - if it's an active, it asks you to press another button at the same time you're trying to press all your other buttons! The hope with this version is that it retains the skill test of positioning properly, but not the additional mechanical test of reaching over and hitting a number button at the same time you're trying to mash your other abilities.
: I don't see how ADCs won't abuse the first passive of Spear of Shojin. They will get tanky just by building AD, and will get better scaling from it than fighters themselves. Maybe make it melee only like Hydra?
We haven't found this item to be that strong on ADCs, but are prepared to take steps if they become the dominant users of the item.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ataraxis,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=QzwOyzht,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-17T21:37:10.825+0000) > > I really really dislike lowering the damage on the Hydra items, it's a nerf in my eyes. Part of the reason I buy Ravenous Hydra is because it is one of the highest AD damage item in the game, and I don't want that to change. Can't you lower the cost of Tiamat instead? Most people don't upgrade it until very late anyways, at which point these changes becomes a nerf to a final build while intending to be a buff. If they lower the cost of Tiamat any more, it'll become a must buy on junglers. This isn't inherently bad but I feel it's at the price point where there's a good amount of choice.
Yeah, lowering the price of Tiamat is quite risky - it throws a lot of lane and jungle dynamics out of whack. We actually found the Hydra changes to be a pretty big buff - you get less AD, sure, but so far we've found that getting the spike earlier is more than worth it. Please try it out ingame and let me know what you think, though!
: >attack to gain dragon heart basic attack? >reduces damage by 10 etc... on basic attacks and abilities how does this work with dots/kaisa q? it reduces it once? or per tick? just like amumu does with ashe's q?
Yes, basic attack to activate the item. The item reduces damage from every tick, but at 30% effectiveness per tick. It should be pretty strong against periodic effects.
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