: Smaller 5.22 Marksmen Changes PBE Feedback Thread
What about our Melee Marksman? You know, big and metal, likes to hue? Leader of a band, conqueror of the Rift, and bringer of endless suffering? ...his significant other has the best combo of ass and breasts in the game?
: What would really balance morde though, (at least in the bottom lane) would be to get rid of the solo lane exp, the fact that his shield doesn't decay (mean it was op before the rework why buff it?), and make it so that if someone has a support gold gen item they can't get gold from relic shield. Even one of these things would make him way more manageable in bot lane. Side note the Riot employee whoever he/she is should probably be informed that in almost every game I've been in there has been a threat made against said employee most recent being "I want to punch which ever Rioter thought it would be a good idea to give morde a pet dragon in the face" (I was not the one to say that btw)
> [{quoted}](name=Rameranic,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=1l0I1VAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-09-11T15:39:58.630+0000) > > What would really balance morde though, (at least in the bottom lane) would be to get rid of the solo lane exp, the fact that his shield doesn't decay (mean it was op before the rework why buff it?), and make it so that if someone has a support gold gen item they can't get gold from relic shield. Even one of these things would make him way more manageable in bot lane. Side note the Riot employee whoever he/she is should probably be informed that in almost every game I've been in there has been a threat made against said employee most recent being "I want to punch which ever Rioter thought it would be a good idea to give morde a pet dragon in the face" (I was not the one to say that btw) Again, the issue with W as you pointed out is that it is gimmicky. Mordekaiser has weaknesses that are purposely pronounced in the bot lane because as long as his E exists the way it still does, Mordekaiser can't be played fairly against the majority of mid and top-lane opponents. But instead of giving Mordekaiser something that makes sense, like the aura of dread from his Harvester of Sorrow that makes enemies relive their regrets and mistakes and leaves them sluggish in their reaction - aka attack - speed (hence the name), they give him the full xp of killing a minion. What, is Mordekaiser's armor transmogged World of Warcraft Heirloom gear or something? Which was why I suggested Mordekaiser's W change from the exp buff to an attack-speed reduction aura, so that Mordekaiser has something to hold over the ranged ADC's and would allow him the chance to make more promising engagements in bot-lane trades. After all, if we can't give Mordekaiser cc or mobility, we need to give him something to be able to hold over his intended opposition and encourage him to go to bot-lane. It would also serve to give Mordekaiser viable access to something akin to Frozen Heart without wasting stats with the mana granted by the item, and allow him to compete against the attack-speed monster ADC's like Vayne or Kalista if he can get close to them. He is still kitable, but you have to be more methodical about doing so now that if he gets close, your attack speed will be reduced. And even more, it would help make a viable ADC who can counter the Devourer meta that I don't see going anytime soon as long as Devourer does not get a meaningful nerf. After all, why do you have to always fight fire with fire, sometimes water is a more effective solution.
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Mind over Matter and Rage Discussion. Alright, boys and girls, as a passionate person who wants the best for Mordekaiser and those who face Mordekaiser, I was looking over my design and found an issue. The Rage passive of Phage grants 20 movement speed on-hit to basic attacks, which I understood, but at the same time it also grants 60 movement speed to killing a unit, including minions. Now, considering the changes I proposed to Mordekaiser, I see a problem inherently with the design I suggested, namely that Mordekaiser would get some of his rapid minion destruction back with his W's solo damage and keeping the damage on his E against non-champion monsters... and nothing prevents Mordekaiser from getting Mind over Matter by auto-attacking minions (something I had intentionally left there). Namely, while Mind over Matter offers an alternative to needing to get Phage and thus Trinity Force for movement speed to make landing Q more effective, I often forget the player base we deal with, who often don't always follow intended designs and instead try to abuse the system as much as possible. Thus, someone might get Phage for Trinity Force knowing fully well they would also benefit from Mind over Matter, meaning they could potentially see Mordekaiser chasing an opponent with 385 movement speed and getting up to 25 more movement speed from Mind over Matter. While in the late game, you are going to see crazy things anyways, the fact that rushing a first-item Phage could see 390+ movement speed regularly on Mordekaiser within the first few minutes of the game - and this does not at all consider anything else that can boost Mordekaiser's movement speed, like masteries, runes, and boots - is a problem for someone who is supposed to be a slow hulking machine of war. While I could suggest something like making Mordekaiser get the ranged-champion reduced benefits of the Rage passive, I understand that doing so would open a huge can of worms and reveal the spaghetti-code monster hidden in the league's own code. Then again, that is namely the issue for trying to rework how items work with all of League's champions. And honestly, nothing prevents someone from going full-ham movement speed on Mordekaiser, but neither do I want to make a monster like that even more oppressive. As such, I decided to offer a change to Mind over Matter. With the new passive, Mind over Matter would grant 5 movement speed on hit, and an additional 5 movement speed for every point put into the ability for the maximum speed boost. Thus, Mordekaiser would have to put points into Q if he wants to be faster. Yes, it would mean Mordekaiser only gets a movement speed boost of 10 for the first level of Q put in, and it would increase the maximum movement speed boost to 30, but it would ensure that people can't as readily abuse the movement speed boost, at least until the mid-late game. And if people try to focus on rushing movement speed, they are going to sacrifice other things like damage, tankiness, and utility. So what do you think, does this sound good to you?
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Well another problem in forcing Mordekaiser to the bot lane is the passive to his W, the bonus experience. It's not what should be promoting Mordekaiser to the bot lane, but there isn't much that would encourage him to go to bot lane against a ranged ADC, not without something to hold over an opposing duo lane. The issue with the W is that it doesn't really do much except promote the 'feast or famine' problem of Mordekaiser, that is: Mordekaiser either gets fed and wins the game by his lonesome, or feeds and instead becomes dead weight. Sure, even with my proposed changes, the issue would be getting in range to these duo lanes and land meaningful damage in melee range, and without Siphon in it's current state, Mordekaiser would be a walking target. Hm, perhaps instead of an experience buff, while Mordekaiser's has his W, he has an aura of about 475 range that reduces the attack speed of enemy champions by 2/4/6/8/10%? And while W is active, he gains 25 range on the aura, and an additional 2/4/6/8/10% in attack speed reduction to enemy champions? For bottom lane promotion, he could also share the attack speed reduction aura with a champion who has W on them as well? The 475 range is shorter than the auto-attack range of the vast majority of bottom-lane ADC opponents, I know, but it helps him when he makes engagements since he will be trying to get closer to melee his opponents anyways, while still giving ADC's a safe zone range from which to attack him, especially if chasing him. At the same time it also ensures that he is kitable, but also ensures that people will have to be a lot more mindful of doing so as they watch for Siphon of Destruction, not for it's damage from max range (as I have already made my stance on very clear), but as a utility spell that will allow him to get off the effect of Rylai's if he decides to build it.
: Proposed Vayne Nerf/Changes
...why not just change the effectiveness of on-hit effects on her, making them occur once every two or three auto attacks?
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Children of the Grave We come full circle to the ultimate, and Yell brought up his issues with my suggestion. Granted, in the past with pre-rework Mordekaiser, his complaints would have seemed unfitting, but in Mordekaiser's current iteration, he raises a point I had overlooked: his issue was not with the ghost giving Mordekaiser something, but rather giving Mordekaiser a heal. And looking on it, he is right: between the shield Mordekaiser has, and the heal built inherently into his W - which can be solo-cast now - and Mordekaiser doesn't need to worry about his health as much anymore, especially if he decides to go with Hextech Gunblade, which would be more viable as more sustain and cc if the changes I proposed with Mind over Metal meant less of a need to build Trinity Force for the movement speed boost. So yeah, a heal might not do the trick, it would just over-saturate Mordekaiser with heals and then they would all get nerfed. So the question becomes, what would you like to see done with the ghost? My idea of a buff to Mordekaiser with AD and AP is pretty standard, but a tad boring. Maybe having the ghost champion ride the dragon and buffing the dragon somehow numerically and visually? That could always be fun. What suggestions do you have? I'm honestly not sure how to make the ghost death at least not a complete waste. Granted, it is situational enough to have the ghost and then kill the dragon, but still...
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Siphon of Destruction. Ah yes, this. Mordekaiser's most infamous means of building shield, and it should remain that way. In the past, I understood that the ranged poke ability was the way of reminding people that Mordekaiser was a melee mage, similar to Kassadin but different in his own way. Now, he is a melee brusier, and yet he still has the technique mostly intact as an antique, and whether people realize it or not, it's an ability that conflicts with the idea of Mordekaiser as a melee brusier. Giving Mordekaiser ranged poke in its current form allows him to trade with ADC's without having to expose himself too regularly unless they have a means to poke him back from a similar if not greater distance, such as Varus with his aoe distant damage, or Caitlyn with her ridiculous range. This basically makes him a ranged APC who is just more quirky and designed to fit well in his current lane than the off-meta melee brusier you might see in bot lane because, well... yolo (I died a little just having to say that). To give Mordekaiser buffs, he needs to either be underpowered and thus not seeing play as a result of that lack of power, which is not the case (people are complaining that Mordekaiser is in the bot lane, not that he is underpowered). So if people want to have meaningful changes to make Mordekaiser a better and more fitting champion, something has to give, something that he has now has to change to avoid making Mordekaiser overpowered, and then nerfing him as tradition until he becomes underpowered anyways. It's better to give a little and get something back, then take a lot in and have to barf it all up later. Horrible analogy and even more horrible imagery, but it gets my point across. My changes to the Siphon are again, to encourage Mordekaiser to fight in melee range, where he will get the enjoy the power of the Siphon in its current damage form... and even a little more if he can stick to his target in melee. On the other hand, if he wants meaningful buffs to allow him to play as a melee brusier, he has to have less range, that is a simple fact. His band buddy Olaf has a ranged ability, but it is a means to allow him to get into melee range since it has a slow, and it costs mana, something that is always an issue for Olaf until the late game if he decides against maxing his E first. Mordekaiser has no mobility and no cc, and he doesn't need it... he simply needs means to allow him to stick to a target if he can get on them, but Riot doesn't want to let him have that because he also has Siphon. My proposition is to nerf Siphon, but allowing it to keep its ability to execute low-health targets. Again, the execute is reduced by the distance-scaling damage modifier, but as Yell pointed out, having an AoE execute that can potentially kill multiple close targets needs to have a built-in limiter of some sort. The damage scaling only affects champions, it continues to work as intended against minions and monsters, and may possibly mean more shield-gaining buffs from said beings to compensate, which means more reliable shield-building and less pressure to hit the champion with it as well.
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Harvester of Sorrow w. Creeping Death Buff: Again, the issue of Mordekaiser's W right now is the problem of being able to balance it solo vs duo. In duo it was extremely powerful with it's duo overlap damage and the heal it had built on it, but the inability to use it in any form hurt solo Mordekaiser by taking away an ability he could reliably use in any capacity in a single lane sans a jungle gank. Now, it is useful as an instant heal whenever it is off cooldown, but it doesn't really add much to Mordekaiser's playstyle in terms of strategic thinking... you would use it whenever available and that is it, because there is no benefit to letting it run for an extended period unless you're coming up on a minion wave while chasing your enemy. And again, making meaningful changes to the solo-use of W impacts how it works in duo lanes. My suggestion was simply a means to solve the dilemma by making solo W its own entire ability. The issue with W in the past was it promoted the safe playstyle by Mordekaiser, but in its current iteration on the PBE, W can only be self-cast, and can passively add the empowered area of effect to an ally champion when they are nearby while the ability is running. This is good, but we can do better. Giving the damage and/or passive resistances as a buff would allow the solo and duo use of the ability to be independent, and they could even alter the healing value of the W in solo lane to truly separate the solo and duo use of the ability. With the way the ability can cast on an ally in lane while active, that can be used to entirely change the way the ability works and make some interesting and reactive plays, and presents more choice to the player. I.E. Do I keep W running the entire time, because I can get some good damage and I can resist my opponent a bit better. Should I reactivate it as soon as I get in range for the heal, I am running a bit low and my opponent will run out of mana soon. Oh, but my jungler is coming and I can help him gank with my W running active and baiting my opponent! Choices, see?
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
Overlooking the proposes changes, I decided to explain my propositions a bit more. After all, I am for the introduction of changes to make Mordekaiser viable but able to be tuned as needed so as to avoid him becoming someone who is either swinging wildly between overpowered or trash. Mind over Matter Passive: As Yell At Your Dog suggested, one issue with Mordekaiser has always been encouraging him to stay in melee range to fight, as opposed to the problematic option of simply fighting from melee-ish range and only going in if he needed one more ability or auto-attack to kill his opponent. The addition of the AD ratios to Siphon was an effort to promote the idea of a Mordekaiser who might build some or all AD and who might be more inclined to melee for auto-attacks. The problem is that, like Yell mentioned, AP Mordekaiser still does have that lack of an incentive if they decide not to build AD, only wanting to go in for Mace of Spades, and not feeling a reason to go in other than for that. The addition of on-hit magic damage would allow AP Mordekaiser to behave like AD Mordekaiser, and have more incentive to stay in melee range to auto-attack his opponents even if Mace of Spades was on cooldown. In addition, I proposed the speed buff that functions like a built-in Rage because I want there to be more incentive to staying in melee range, allowing Mordekaiser to stick to his opponents without buffing his attack speed. In it's current form, Mace of Spades is grand for damage against champions but trying to give Mordekaiser attack speed to allow him to hit the ability reliably would inevitably result in the ability being nerfed. The fact of the matter is, the ability is designed to give other champions a window of opportunity to be able to avoid being nuked, they generally have until the third - second if they are squishy - Q strikes before they take massive damage that might kill them, and it allows those with cc or mobility to kite Mordekaiser, which should always be an option. In addition, this ability gives more incentive for tanky Mordekaiser, since Mordekaiser as a tank would lack any cc beyond Rylai's unless he builds some quirky item, but another tank path besides being a damage soaker or cc chainer is being the champion that causes people to panic as he simply sticks to you if allowed to get on you, and you have to focus your cc on him to keep him away... which reduces the amount of cc that can be used on Mordekaiser's teammates. And finally... it thematically makes sense, since people have always wanted Mordekaiser to be able to stick to his targets with magnetism or something similar related to his theme, and if he can empower his mace actively for extreme damage, why can't he empower it passively for a bit more as well?
: siphon is supposed to be weak for AD builds, don't give it execute damage lol. If it wasn't impossible not to miss or on an obscenely low CD come midgame then maybe we could talk, but AoE executes on a 5 second cooldown (with no CDR) would be kind of ridiculous. i have a few changes in mind but i think this ability is sufficiently powerful just make his W's damage proc when alone. i don't think they're going to return the defensive buff, as much as I'd rather have Creeping Death over Harvester in every situation (even when jungling) ghost giving him a heal would be absurd. he already heals off of his ult and as of the rework he heals from the W, he doesn't need a -third- method of sustain. i always thought his Q should've given him passive on-hit damage. AP mordekaiser currently has no incentive to AA while his Q is on cooldown, which is an issue that carries over from his old kit. The magic-damage should disappear when he activates Q though; it already does enough damage. It also means he can actually buy an attack speed item in his AP builds and not feel shitty about it. the MS buff is contradictory; he's supposed to be the easiest juggernaut to run away from, in return for being the hardest one to actually fight.
> [{quoted}](name=Yell At Your Dog,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=1l0I1VAd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-05T10:10:22.459+0000) > > siphon is supposed to be weak for AD builds, don't give it execute damage lol. If it wasn't impossible not to miss or on an obscenely low CD come midgame then maybe we could talk, but AoE executes on a 5 second cooldown (with no CDR) would be kind of ridiculous. i have a few changes in mind but i think this ability is sufficiently powerful > > just make his W's damage proc when alone. i don't think they're going to return the defensive buff, as much as I'd rather have Creeping Death over Harvester in every situation (even when jungling) > > ghost giving him a heal would be absurd. he already heals off of his ult and as of the rework he heals from the W, he doesn't need a -third- method of sustain. > > i always thought his Q should've given him passive on-hit damage. AP mordekaiser currently has no incentive to AA while his Q is on cooldown, which is an issue that carries over from his old kit. The magic-damage should disappear when he activates Q though; it already does enough damage. It also means he can actually buy an attack speed item in his AP builds and not feel shitty about it. the MS buff is contradictory; he's supposed to be the easiest juggernaut to run away from, in return for being the hardest one to actually fight. Well I made each of the offers since I doubt all of my suggestions would be considered, much less implemented. The suggestion for the execute is to compromise on nerfing the ability overall, because making the damage (including the bonus execute damage, I am aware it is aoe and I never said the execute damage was excluded) scale on how close Mordekaiser is to his opponent is a much-needed nerf to Siphon. The armor and magic resist are a suggestion, I would rather he simply get the aoe damage but getting any form of the old resistances would be nice as well. The heal from the ghost is again, very conditional, you must understand. It requires you have a ghost of a champion up when you face the dragon ghost, and then have it up when you kill the dragon - assuming your team gets the kill - and then the champion ghost is gone. It's a quality of life implementation, meant to promote attempts at the dragon, where Mordekaiser would be encouraged to tank the dragon even if his jungler and support and/or mid are low, if he has a champion ghost already. These are suggestions, and I want to discuss ideas and promote discussion on how we could balance Mordekaiser.
: Proposed changes to Mordekaiser
New Comment To summarize the proposed changes, let me explain myself. Mordekaiser has always been a difficult champion to balance, this is because the old Mordekaiser was very simple in his design: he did damage for shield, he uses shield as effective bonus HP, and he could make a ghost. He was melee focused but had a ranged ability that let him poke effectively, and his W could be cast on a minion away from himself at a great distance to gain free shield with no risk. He was powerful, but his kit did not encourage him to take risks, mostly because he didn't need to in lane, and his kit had no mobility or cc meaning kills often came from the mistakes of his opponents and not necessarily his own efforts. Yes, Mordekaiser could flash-Q-Ult-Ignite-Siphon for a kill under tower... but generally that was only effective if you had no cc to stop such like Morgana (who would laugh at Mordekaiser trying to tower dive her with her root and her spell shield), no mobility to escape such, or were low enough for this to be enticing to Mordekaiser; he's as predictable as you can get on a champion, so if you die against him it was on you. The rework had potential, yes, but it failed to address Mordekaiser's general issues all around effectively. Preserving his Siphon as a ranged ability that was as effective in damage as it's maximum range as it was in melee range of Mordekaiser once again did not encourage players to use it in melee range, and promote the idea of Mordekaiser as this monster of a champion who would crush any opponent... if they were foolish enough to let him get close enough to... well... http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/084/432/1290408099277.jpg Yeah, that explains it. But the shield Mordekaiser always had was supposed to be a means to encourage him to get into melee range to fight his enemies, and melee engagements are always risky... which is sort of the point of why they give melee champs the tools they need to make proper engagements. And I can see why they made the changes they did. The move to bot lane was to counter the old 'safe' playstyle of Mordekaiser, where without the ability to cast W on a minion to gain shield and then use his E to hold the enemy champion at bay, Mordekaiser would have to make risky engagements and depend on his teammates to cover for his own failings, which are expressed harder than before. Sadly, this came at the cost of his mid and top lane potential, but this was done for the health of the game... namely the fact that Mordekaiser was an inherently broken champion who could shield and win through effortless attrition against top lane champions who often lacked meaningful ranged damaging abilities and who needed to engage into melee to make their damage (which is what Mordekaiser wanted anyways), or in mid lane where most opponents did have ranged abilities, but they existed on a cooldown and these champions were capped with mana and often needed to choose between farming and poking Mordekaiser... a decision Mordekaiser did not have to consider at all. The E in it's current state is one contributing factor, where Mordekaiser's ranged poke is longer than the average ADC's auto-attack range, and is a factor that limits meaningful changes to Mordekaiser because it might encourage the old playstyle of safely farming from a distance. The W is another issue that people feel limits Morde as anything but a bot-lane champion, but the problem stems from two sides of the camp: the people who want W to be self-cast, and the people who want W to be castable on a minion in lane. The people who want W to be self-cast want a damaging ability, they want to be able to go in melee, possibly benefiting more from Rylai's Crystal Scepter if they intend to rush it, and be able to stick to their targets if they can get to them. The people who want W to be castable on a minion want more ranged on a melee champion, some - not all, but some - generally want to return to Mordekaiser's safe and completely attrition-based playstyle, which I am sad to admit was the most significant issue behind any meaningful buffs to him pre-rework. The Q was probably the change that people are on the fence mostly about, since the shift hurt Mordekaiser's rapid waveclear, but gave him a much-needed source of consistent damage and promoted Mordekaiser more than ever to fight in melee range. Rather than the one empowered auto-attack, Mordekaiser received three, and the damage was spread out exponentially as a means to encourage people to stay in melee range, rather than hitting the champion and falling back to safety. Generally, the ability is either a good change or a bad change generally on whether you prefer Mordekaiser to push his lane or damage his opposition. The ultimate change is again, something a lot of people are on the fence about. I enjoy the change, but to keep my opinion professional, I will not address the aesthetic appeal of the ultimate's changes and explain the mechanics and reasoning behind the changes. Generally, most assume the dragon to be a gimmick, but it isn't just that... there is reasoning behind giving Mordekaiser the dragon. Firstly, the ultimate has always been one of the most conditional in the game... it required a kill for the significant part of the ultimate to occur, otherwise it acted in a manner like an ignite without grievous wounds and with spellvamp built-in... which doesn't really sound like much. The ultimate at worst was no more damaging than any of Mordekaiser's abilities, and this ultimate gave you plenty of time to deal with it, considering it was one of the longest DoT abilities in the game. The ultimate needed more presence in the game, and Mordekaiser's rework needed to address something he was lacking somewhat: his unrivaled pushing power. His waveclear had been weakened but existed thanks to his E being preserved the way it was, but without the former reliability of the W and the lack of AoE damage on his Q, his pushing power had been significant weakened. The dragon ghost was an answer to that, because the death of the dragon was also another conditional requirement for his ultimate to go into effect, and it gave him an effective means to be pushing a tower in a way better than anything sans an ADC champion ghost might (which, now that he has been moved to the bot lane, is now more likely than ever), without having an insanely fast waveclear on top of it. To compensate for the buff of the dragon, however, the ability to use his ult on a champion was disabled, and his champion ghost if present is lost if the dragon died by the hands of Mordekaiser or his team with him there. Mordekaiser's movespeed was reduced mostly as a means to inhibit the reliability of Mordekaiser from landing the 'Three Q's of Death/Doom' too consistently, but at the same time it hurts Mordekaiser's ability to make engagements without always possibly being the underdog, especially now that he has to face ranged opponents in the bottom lane who can reliably poke him now. The changes to his shield were similar to the attempt in the past to make Mordekaiser a tank, except being the only leftover of that disastrous rework, it was implemented to promote in the right way the idea of a tanky Mordekaiser who could still do some noticeable damage if allowed to get out of control. The changes I proposed are to make sure Mordekaiser has what he really needs. Yes, my changes risk making Mordekaiser's kit a tad overloaded, but I am under the belief that overloaded kits are easier to balance because there are so many parts to the kit that you can adjust without changing too much and having to absolutely destroy that champion and make them completely unviable in competitive play. More importantly, my changes are proposed to make Mordekaiser healthy, balanced, and if needed able to fine tuned without needing to gut him completely.
: I know you are still looking for a way to make syndra's passive cool, Check this out! (Notice me :P)
What if we allowed Syndra's balls to knock into other ones? It would basically play like pool so basically to be the best Syndra player you have to play well with either pool or math with angles like with Vel'koz.
Rioter Comments
: Yes, I do remember the old Morde, while I wasn't much of a competitive player at that time and everyone I played with did not really know all that much about the game yet I didn't mind Morde as he was, even though I never played him then. However looking back it was the obvious course of action to nerf him. I really don't want Mordekaiser to be overpowered, in fact I found joy in being the underestimated champion with a little lower win chance than you would call balanced from that information alone. It is satisfying to change people's opinion on your champ, when they are already whining in champ select for example. This was just a little extra of course as I mostly liked the playstyle of his. I refuse to believe balancing the old Mordekaiser effectivley is impossible, while I personally have to admit I did not give it that much thought yet I am sure the Morde community has many ideas to fix him up a little without distorting him.
> [{quoted}](name=SwishFish,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=KhcvQBlG,comment-id=00a000000000,timestamp=2015-09-03T14:25:31.901+0000) > > Yes, I do remember the old Morde, while I wasn't much of a competitive player at that time and everyone I played with did not really know all that much about the game yet I didn't mind Morde as he was, even though I never played him then. > However looking back it was the obvious course of action to nerf him. > > I really don't want Mordekaiser to be overpowered, in fact I found joy in being the underestimated champion with a little lower win chance than you would call balanced from that information alone. It is satisfying to change people's opinion on your champ, when they are already whining in champ select for example. > This was just a little extra of course as I mostly liked the playstyle of his. > > I refuse to believe balancing the old Mordekaiser effectivley is impossible, while I personally have to admit I did not give it that much thought yet I am sure the Morde community has many ideas to fix him up a little without distorting him. Well honestly, it's not the pushing itself that was bad, neither was it the waveclear, many champions have insane waveclear. The problem was Mordekaiser had this, his shield... and a regular ranged ability on a short cooldown. Riot always wanted to give Morde power, but with everything he has, giving him meaningful ranged poke just makes it harder to balance him. If the entirety of his damage was melee or within melee range, he would receive more buffs to compensate. Want to know why they nerfed his W and changed it? Why should they bother to give him more melee damage if he is going to just abuse his E and fight from a distance? Want to know why E feels massively weaker? It isn't, the people in lane you're facing are simply able to negate the shield you build with E with an auto-attack or two and then poke through your health, because Mid and Top Lane Mordekaiser could sustain forever against targets who either didn't have ranged poke, or their ranged poke was so meaningless against a Mordekaiser. A Mid or Top Mordekaiser pre-rework could cast W on the upcoming creep wave, hit the enemy champion and a few minions with E, then hang back and laugh in their face, maybe Q to last hit some minions. In bot lane, you're finally facing against people who can do meaningful trades against you, which people couldn't do in mid or top lane. That is why a lot of Mordekaiser players are angry: their gimp strategy is not as effective anymore now that they have been put in a lane where others can match their poke, and now they have to make risky engagements to make plays. Want to know why people want to W on a minion? They want to play safe Mordekaiser, they want to build free shield and maybe damage the bot lane opponents, then Siphon the enemies, and then hang back and laugh as the lane pushes itself. They want to abuse Mordekaiser's kit for oppressive and unfair play, they don't want to play a melee mage or melee bruiser! They want to play a champion who has ranged poke and shield built into him, so they can be tanky while building offensively. You know who can get shield and thus be defensive while building offense? Riven.
: So Morde gets his solo W back, pretty nice, but for some reason doesn't really make me hyped to play him again...I kinda still feel like good old Morde is dead, I want the old E back and old R (The drake is ridiculous and the damage buff on Ghost is diminished), the new Q makes it a little more versatile and the damage potential skyrocketed, but I liked the old one better since it was much more consistent. So I definitely like the old Morde better, the problems for him were nothing you could not cope with, even in really high elo were Morde players who could carry the game. I skipped Plat IV by playing him, this might not be high elo, but Mordekaiser was by no means too weak to play. The W change is nice and maybe it is the beginning for a proper Rework...one can dream I guess.
> [{quoted}](name=SwishFish,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=KhcvQBlG,comment-id=00a0,timestamp=2015-09-03T09:34:03.838+0000) > > So Morde gets his solo W back, pretty nice, but for some reason doesn't really make me hyped to play him again...I kinda still feel like good old Morde is dead, I want the old E back and old R (The drake is ridiculous and the damage buff on Ghost is diminished), the new Q makes it a little more versatile and the damage potential skyrocketed, but I liked the old one better since it was much more consistent. > So I definitely like the old Morde better, the problems for him were nothing you could not cope with, even in really high elo were Morde players who could carry the game. > I skipped Plat IV by playing him, this might not be high elo, but Mordekaiser was by no means too weak to play. > > The W change is nice and maybe it is the beginning for a proper Rework...one can dream I guess. The old Morde was fun for us, yes... but the reason they changed Mordekaiser was because he was unhealthy. And no, I'm not using what the dev's are referring to as unhealthy, we know not everything they say matches what we feel. The fact was, any buffs to Mordekaiser made him an even worse lane bully, you might not have minded playing as him in mid lane, but I guarantee everyone hated facing Mordekaiser unless you were Swain, Cassiopeia, Malzahar, or Heimerdinger, because otherwise you were getting shafted and needing to have your lane camped the entire laning phase. It was either unfun for you as the jungler babysat your opponent's lane, or unfun for your opponent as you pushed without giving a damn about anyone else, either way someone was going to be absolutely miserable. You know how people complain about Riven, Vayne, Fizz, etc.? A lot of people would have spammed the forums hating Mordekaiser if he had gotten buffed beyond what was his current power pre-rework. Back then, he was a bully, but his weaknesses were just enough to make him balanced, which was why Riot couldn't ever buff him. Remember Mordekaiser when he was released? The guy could legitimately win 1v5s like it was nobodies business, they could never let him get past a certain nerf portioned of existence because of Mordekaiser's power if he were to ever reach true viability. The same issue with Poppy, her kit would make her broken beyond belief if people could make it work consistently enough, so they kept her always from being viable by mainstream league play. I loved Morde, he was my main, but I am an objective person, and a lot of the people who cry for old Morde want him back because he was broken inherently, and wanted him in his old form in the hopes he would be buffed in THAT iteration. That was so that they could aspire to the damage he could case like he could deal at initial release... so basically they want to play with a champion who would likely get Juggernaut Skarner's win rate, if his pre-rework kit had been meaningfully buffed in any way. I have to be honest, a lot of people hate Riven because she is relentlessly oppressive and mobile. Well, buffing pre-rework Mordekaiser beyond a marginal amount would likely be as troublesome as buffing Riven, because their kits make them inherently broken and hard to balance. You have to accept that if they completely reverted Mordekaiser to his pre-rework status, he would remain the same exact way forever, because he was too broken to balance effectively, and only his vulnerability to kiting and cc and lack of mobility and cc of his own was what left him arguably balanced.
: so with the ideas for morde in patch 5.18
Actually, I feel his E is still what holds him back... see the E as it is doesn't really promote a burst Morde, it just promotes that old playstyle of hanging back to damage enemies and build shield. That isn't consistent with the way Riot wants us to play the new Mordekaiser. The reason they nerfed the damage to the E overall was because they are trying to encourage people to put more focus on W and Q, and promote the whole idea of him as a melee fighter. But because he still has the E, they feel the need to weaken him in other areas, namely his movement speed and the damage of his W when solo. So what would happen if we did this? We take his E, and make it so that it scales the closer Mordekaiser is to his opponent, so it does crap damage if the enemy is at the maximum range of his Siphon, but it ramps up a shit-ton if he is in melee range? Since his whole kit seems to be about ramping up his damage by getting others close to him, be it enemies or allies. Then we can increase his movespeed back to where it used to be, and give him back his W's solo aoe sustain damage. I don't think they will ever give him mobility or cc, but we've lived for years without any such on Mordekaiser, and honestly... on Mordekaiser, do we really need it?

Lord Boltrix

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