: Accelerando, not Cresendo
I think Crescendo is still fine for the active, but the passive part should be renamed as you suggested, kinda like how Akali's passive is both Discipline of Might and Discipline of Force.
: Can we lower Sona's Q range in exchange for more damage on it?
I don't think her Q will be useless at all, with her max rank ult the CD will drop to 2.4 seconds at 40% CDR. With these changes Sona's the late game hypercarry of supports, she has a heal that's as spamable (abet still a lot weaker) as Rakas, one the highest DPS abilities in the game, if you can tag 4 allies with it (which you can't) it probably is the highest DPS ability in the game. Her E is also pretty close to perma active now.
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes V2 (feedback wanted)
>"too high" "unusable" "I can't lane." Can we not air-quote facts?
: Hi! This is the first big design decision I want to jump into, as I knew this call would be contentious. To set clear expectations up front: vector casting the W is pretty much off the table at this point. I've observed a good number (12+?) of games, we did very a series of very focused player labs here at Riot HQ, and I've had countless late night conversations about this, and my mind is made up. I'll try to explain my reasoning here! So let's start with a statement of facts and opinions: * Fact: Only two champions (Rumble and Viktor) currently use vector casting. * Fact: Both of these champions have extremely steep mastery curves (mastery curves represent how hard it is to learn a new champion; they graph average win rate over previous games played) * Opinion: Viktor's mastery curve is very out of place for a champion with a point and click ability and two generously sized AOE abilities that have very little nuance to them. This suggests to me that the bulk of Viktor's difficulty lives in just his E. * Opinion: Taliyah's Q, E, and R are harder to learn than Viktor's Q, W, and R. (I'm comparing the parts of their kits that aren't vector cast / potential vector cast) Right. So here's my thinking, again broken down into bullet points. * Vector cast asks you to think about holding a button down (left mouse for normal cast, E for quick cast). No other input (with the possible exception of channel while moving spells such as Xerath Q and Varus Q) in the game does this. * Vector cast asks you to think of both the origin point and the target point in terms of key-down and key-up. * Here's my internal monologue when I try to use Viktor: * "Okay, aim somewhere in range. Got it? Okay cool press the button. Move the mouse. Do you like where the arrow is? Okay, let go of the mouse now. Oh I'm dead because Zed jumped on me? Unlucky." * The next time I try to use it, it goes like this: * "Okay, fine, be quick about it this time. Press drag let go! Uh, that was nowhere near where I wanted to shoot the laser. Fuck. Okay again. Did you just tap the button? What are you doing, brain?" All joking aside, vector cast represents a cast paradigm unlike anything else in League. More importantly, vector cast forces you to input these awkward (OPINION) key presses as quickly as possible, because nothing starts happening until you do. Most likely you're standing still while trying to aim the end of the laser. So we end up with a hard to learn ability that puts a gun to your head and says "don't you DARE taking it slow and learning this ability properly! GO MOVE MOVE MOVE!" On top of that, because all vector casts are walk-into-range type spells (if you use them outside of their range, your character will walk up and cast the spell once you're in range assuming you've not overridden the cast command with a different command) you can never be sure if your cast has gone through. Simple spells get around that problem by having the player spam them. If I'm chasing on Nami and trying to Q in front of an enemy who's running from me, I'll be mashing Q where I want the bubble to go, with each subsequent input overriding the previous input. If I ever am in range of an input I liked in time, the cast will go through, otherwise it won't. Vector makes this super hard because you're asked with constantly inputting a precise directional cast over and over. Instead of "hover mouse where you want bubble to go and mash Q" it's "move mouse to desired start point, hold down e, move mouse so that desired end point lines up with where you want laser to go, let go of E, move mouse back to next desired start point, repeat". This is awkward as fuck. Here are the most salient differences in Taliyah's W cast: * Taliyah's W has an 0.85s delay which begins at W1, no matter what. You have 0.85s to input W2 (which is a massive amount of time in league), and how late you input W2 has no bearing on how quickly the spell will trigger. Take your time and aim well! * Taliyah's W is range-clamped. When you click outside of range, Taliyah will cast as far as possible in that direction, immediately. There's never any confusion on which state you're in. * Both inputs follow standard League patterns of "aim your mouse and tap the button". No holding down and dragging required. * You can move freely after the initial 0.25s cast time for putting W1 into the world. This means even as you decide where to toss them, you can dodge incoming skill shots. I've tested both versions extensively and decided to ship this version. If after reading this you still have concerns about things I may not have considered, please let's hear it!
Would it be possible to hybridify it? For example if W is held for more than .2 seconds it casts like a Vector but if it's only pressed it casts the way it does currently?
: While I like the direction of these changes, the biggest issue I have would be the level 1 Q CD @ 12 seconds. Maybe 10 would be sufficient? (Unsure of live values atm.) I do like the "selfish" nature of these buffs, especially towards late game. Other ideas: Since the aura size is smaller, is there any talk/thought going into potentially letting the auras stay longer? Perhaps a few extra seconds to inch towards your lane partner to grant them X bonus? (Slight nod to pre-rework Sona here) Is there any chance we will see Sona's affecting minions ever again? I seem to recall (intentional or otherwise) that old Sona's speed boost was given to the minions she was by, but not since her rework. While not a super important bonus, I thought it was a cool bonus to using her E to get back to lane as well, and bring some backup with her. Besides that, thanks for giving my favorite support some love! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Maybe 10 would be sufficient? (Unsure of live values atm.) 8 all ranks. This is overall a 1 second CD nerf if you take the average of all ranks.
: EXPERIMENTAL Sona changes. Feedback wanted
There will even less reason to pick Sona if you go through with these changes, plain and simple, they are bad. Just look at it from an early game perspective, because you don't pick a support for their late game potential. What do you get in the earlygame? You're forced to skill E now, it's not a good skill early but now you're forced into it by your own aura range, so you lose a rank in W. Your Q has a significantly longer CD. Your auras are still weaker despite you ranking E to try to help with them. This Sona is weaker earlygame, so why the fuck would I ever pick her? This question is more relevant now, what does she bring over Nami, one of the few things she used to bring was very low level potential (which isn't that useful because it doesn't last that long) that's out of the window now. Sona can't be strong early with a 12 second CD on her Q. The question has always been, why do I pick Sona over Nami? You've not given us any answers to that question, you've just made it worse. You don't pick a support for late game potential. If you did Nunu would be an amazing support. You need supports who bring valuable healing, peel and CC early game. Sona doesn't really bring any of these things. She's just a slow, squishy, free kill for any jungler who wants to gank her. Your changes din't alleviate this at all, there's still no reason to pick her.
: Thanks for the feedback (and being honest on how you feel about the auras). This is the kinda stuff I'm worried about. I'd encourage you to go try her out on PBE and get some games in with the new E. My assumption is that the speed on it may go a long way towards addressing your feelings of how easy she is to abuse. Let me know if you still feel the same way afterwards.
These numbers on aura range are smaller than what Sona came to the PBE with when she was first being reworked. Her original rework auras of 300 were too small, you new auras of 250 are far too small, hell her current auras of 350 are probably too small.
: You guys severely overestimate your ability to get 7 sphere ultimates in a teamfight(getting a 10 sphere ult in a fight is a complete joke btw). Being able to do this in a custom game does not count at all. If a player can manage to get 8 spheres out in a teamfight they deserve it. I'm only a diamond player. But to add a bit of more backing to my words. If master tier and consistent high elo diamond syndra mains feel that 8-9 ults should be allowed based on the fact that it would be very difficult to be getting those off there has to be something to what they are saying. I can do a lot of things in a custom game but I can't do those same things in an actual high level game.
Press Q 3 times, W the orbs, W again as soon as you can. Grab the orbs with W before they die. Press Q once more before you ult. Easy 7 orb ults every time.
: Syndra ult capped at 7 sphere, why?
It's not hard to have 7 Syndra spheres for ult right now. In theory if you have 45% CDR and Q on CD you have 4 spheres on the field for a 7 sphere ult over 60% of the time. I have 200MS to the PBE and I can get 4 spheres out without pressing W, on live I'd be able to keep 4 up most of the time. Getting 10 orbs isn't actually that hard. You just need to Q x3 in the same spot, Q, W the 3 grouped, then Qx3. Do you know how much damage that ult would deal? It deals 1800+200% AP. It's way too much. What Syndra actually needs is to not have such easy set up for her ult. Spheres shouldn't last 8 seconds, it's a stupid idea.
: Morellonomicon 2900g cost, why?
20 AP is worth 439 gold by itself. I'd say the bump is a little too big but it's probably not that far off.
: Jungle Exp, BloodRazor Item, Guinsoos Rageblade, Elemental Dragons
>Nextly, I found that the BloodRazor jungle item that replaced Devourer to be extremely underwhelming. The passive is relatively bad, only 3 % of max health dealt as physical damage. To be fair Madrid's was always an atrocious item. Don't know what they were expecting really.
: Using multiple orbs with W will increase the damage of W. Tested on the PBE against Scuttlecrab.
Just tested, does not. 100% does not. What you probably did was remove the durability buff from Scuttle between your first and second W. Go back and try again, but this time stun Scuttle before you start. When I tested I did 261 damage with 1 orb and 261 damage with 2. It does not stack on itself.
: Having an ability to ACTUALLY control seeds is necessary. With no W you would have to rely on an RNG seed to appear behind you for instance to bet a slowing plant from E to help you kite.
It's not that bad, the seeds spawn enough and the RNG seems to be weighted heavily in your favour. I've often found that wherever I want to dump a seed there's already one there 80% of the time.
: Very much agree. Most champions that don't transform have 5 dimensions to their kit. Zyra in this rework now has one fewer than she used to, from 4 abilities to 3. Why?
Counting her old passive as a dimension is a streatch
: MYMU - Zyra discussion
The only thing that I don't like about this is that it really feels like her W and Passive are the same ability. In terms of actives they both do the exact same thing in basically the same way. I just just feel like if you're going to be changing her passive to seed generation there's better things you could do wit W.
: Difficulty and Skill expression, while having a strong correlation - are not as directly linked as this. We could make a champion that says 'Whenever you cast a spell, you need to solve this calculus expression.' Or we could make a champion that has 50% of the base stats of everyone else and it would be intensely difficult to play. What difficulty does is stress the importance of **other** mechanics in the game and your ability to master those. Ashe - for example - needs a much **much** better sense of positioning than Ezreal in order to be successful. She tests that positioning far more than Ez. This method only works **if** the base mechanics themselves are sufficient to carry this weight. For a sustained range attack - there is a fair amount of depth given how often you need to repeat this pattern and the flexibility of the ranged basic attack means there's a pretty solid base here. This presumes that the basic mechanics are deep enough to be "enough" essentially - and if this was the case then we wouldn't necessarily even have to make Annie all that strong - just a character with good positioning and a character that is strong mechanically could still face off and come out even (as they have competing skill checks that are outputting the same level of effectiveness.) Over the years - we've found no amount of the basic mechanics inherent to playing a mid-range mage of this type has matched up to the depth of just the ranged basic attack and the sustained pattern within it. This is a similar problem for melee - which we don't actually have a ton of basic mechanics that convert skill expression to effectiveness. TL;DR - Harder isn't more skill expression necessarily. Harder stresses the skill checks already present. However, those skill checks need to be **sufficient** to carry them to a high degree of success without other compensating factors.
One thing, are you talking about mid range mages, or are you talking about Annie? Last I checked mid lane mages have a lot of skill expression. Champs like Syndra, Cassiopeia, Viktor, Brand and even someone like Teemo all have high amounts of skill expression. Annie is the exception here, not the rule and I think you'd get far better results if you just made her less dumb as a champ rather than actively trying to break her.
: > I think I mostly got offended by the whole 'immobile mages don't take skill, you just out stat check enemies.' I probably read that wrong, anyway. My bad. From what I've seen of your posts - You're actually very reasonable and think through things quite deeply. I'm probably more at fault here in terms of word choice and setting you off. I'm a bit overwhelmed responding to this level of posts - and so the usual care I have in crafting my posts is probably lost as well. I don't have the same amount of time to edit and choose my words more carefully. (I'm actually **very** acerbic in real life.) My apologies for offending you but I will say - I love the discussions nonetheless - it's always incredibly helpful to have my assumptions challenged directly as that's what gets me out of my Ivory Tower more often or not. > 'ranged champions have to figure out how to position correctly' I'm just going by how many people can orb-walk well, to be honest. Which is.. well.. kind of limited.
>I'm just going by how many people can orb-walk well, to be honest. >Which is.. well.. kind of limited. I'd like to point out that this method of thinking created Kalista, a champ heralded as one of the worst designed champions of recent times. Are you sure you want to follow that rabbit hole? Because it **will** result in the worst designed item of all time.
: > So...is this you admitting that you like the 'playmaker' champions over any other kind of champions? How does the statement go? 'Democracy is the worst of all possible governments, except for all the other ones.' I try not to like anything in particular. I'm mostly driven out of a desire to see what kind of things can exist without creating more problems. > Like, I understand that skill expression is great, but there's ways to have skill expression other than 'every single champion is entirely skillshots and everyone has dashes.' I'm not particularly picky how we get skill expression into the game - so long as it's available as a growth pattern that players can opt into. The goal of the hextech items is to introduce items that allow you to express your skill. If the Rocket Belt works - great. If not, we'll try something else - but ultimately at the end of the day - the goal of the Hextech line is to allow for that type of expression to exist. I'm not super attached to any particular form of it - so long as the skill expression isn't something like 'I know X character just kind of wins by default so the skill is just picking it when it's OP.'
>The goal of the hextech items is to introduce items that allow you to express your skill. Rocket Belt isn't adding skill expression to mages, it's removing it. A lot of the skill inherent to playing mages is positioning correctly. You're removing actual skill from their kits in favour of flashiness. I think a good analogy to this is Ashe and Ez. As champions they're somewhat similar, they're both ADCs who rely on slows to control fights, but Ashe is far more difficult to play correctly because she doesn't have a blink. It's the lack of saftey that make Ashe far harder to play, while in spite of his "skill expression" through mobility Ez is actually an incredibly easy champ to play.
: > I dont really know about the mages changes but the hextech rocket belt looks like something that assasins like fizz and Lb would abuse rather than giving mages a way to make plays. I'll likely be shifting around the AP / Health ratio to make it less desirable for base AP purposes. Or at the very least, if they pick up the item - they should perhaps not have as much general burst damage - which means I just have to shift the focus of the item quite a bit from scaling stats to base stats.
>I'll likely be shifting around the AP / Health ratio to make it less desirable for base AP purposes. If you improve the HP and drop the AP you create an item for Sej/Zac/Amumu, not an item for mages. I can't see a world where this item improves the game.
: AP item's price x effectiveness is ridiculous, and there's a way to fix it without having to revamp all AP items. Why don't create the solution for everyone problem simply by changing {{item:3089}}. Rabadon's Deathcap Cost: 3800 +90 Ability Power UNIQUE Passive: Increases Ability Power by 60%. + 25% increase sound like a ridiculous buff, but isn't that absurd if you look at the numbers. ____________________________________________________________________ The way it's right now: {{item:3089}} + {{item:3157}} + {{item:3285}} = 162 + 135 + 135 = 432 AP {{item:3089}} + {{item:3157}} = 162 + 135 = 297 AP {{item:3089}} + {{item:3165}} = 162 + 108 = 270 AP New: {{item:3089}} + {{item:3157}} + {{item:3285}} = 144 + 160 + 160 = 464 AP (+32 AP) {{item:3089}} + {{item:3157}} = 144 + 160 = 304 AP (+7 AP) {{item:3089}} + {{item:3165}} = 144 + 128 = 272 AP (+2 AP) __________________ As you can see, it doesn't get out of control, but rebalance the items AP value to be more gold efficient.
You forgot to factor in indirect buffs to {{item:3040}} in this. With all the new mana items available and the buffs to {{item:3070}} it's now the best value AP item in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if mages build something like {{item:3070}} > {{item:3165}} > {{item:3040}} > {{item:3089}} and wind up with insane numbers without your Deathcap change. I am kind of assuming that DC will get a fair drop in price though.
: I think the "ability power per stack" on Rod of Ages is wrong? > Ability Power per Stack: 20 --> 20 (Unchanged) At the moment it gives 4 AP (and 20HP) per stack...
Can't wait for my 260 AP RoA, I see nothing wrong with this.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00210000,timestamp=2016-04-07T08:05:22.744+0000) > >(A Sheen upgrade for supportive mages) Oh baby. May I have some details on this? {{champion:37}}
Assuming it did less damage than LB it would be worse on Sona. Sona isn't really a support, she's a mage with a heal who goes bot. The most effective items on her are the ones that give the most damage. I doubt Sona will find use out of the new Athene's for example, because 40 AP just isn't enough for her.
: The only way to do that would probably be bonus damage versus minions. Otherwise you just kind of mash Q on the enemy dude until he runs. :P
Right now most champs HP regen outpaces Akali's Q poke. Making it so Akali's Q slightly outpaces regen probably won't do that much.
: It would likely make the item even more expensive - I'm caught between the 'I can't finish Zhonya's' versus 'I want my item to have sufficient AP to murder things.' I'll try to play around with some numbers here.
What if the stacks from Armguard actually mattered for Hourglass? Maybe then you'd be able to have both without it just being flat out insane.
: If they're trading AP and selfish power for team utility and uptime - so long as they pay the difference in AP that might be an acceptable compromise. We are reducing the sustain power of a lot of the bot lane support items - as we've just generally been noticing that there's way too much hp and mana sustain in bot lane. The problem here is when they lose nothing for having infinite uptime. This means we generally just take it out of their kit's power level or poke cooldowns because having Ziggs definitively infinite waveclear the wave without tradeoffs is... distressing, to say the least.
>The problem here is when they lose nothing for having infinite uptime. This means we generally just take it out of their kit's power level or poke cooldowns because having Ziggs definitively infinite waveclear the wave without tradeoffs is... distressing, to say the least. But Zed having infinite wave clear and pushing power with energy is somehow fine?
: > Once you guys finally fix those tanky items though, everyone who actually plays Akali as an assassin tends to stick to Revolver because her early game is so bad that it's basically required. Her passive alone tends not to save her from the miserable laning experience she has against competent players that don't provide her the mistakes she needs to thrive on an enemy. Right - instead of healing with Revolver, instead you'll get an additional ~70 to 80 damage on your combo. While this isn't a terribly great trade, all things considered - it's definitely more assassin like than Akali healing to burst you. Furthermore, I do agree that her laning phase is miserable but consider the following: We've had to make every champion who could conceivably buy Revolver's laning phase miserable or toned down considerably. I'm killing Spell Vamp mostly because I'm actually kind of sick of what item availability on this stat has done to these champions. Every single one of these champions have become more binary based on whether or not they can acquire the gold to get Revolver - and every single one of these champion's laning phases has gotten worse and more miserable because of it as we further accept the world in which they rush Revolver. The stat isn't what solved their poor lane - The stat is what *caused* their poor lane after balance. I want to see what the world is like after this - because the existence of early lane requirements of this magnitude is actually what has lead to these kind of lane curves for these characters - we have to destroy their early games because we know that their first 1200 gold goes towards a fountain of sustain that can be applied safely. It was basically hard enough trying to get a resourceless character to work - but Spell Vamp basically said 'Well, every resourceless character can also turn resources into Health if they can get 1200 GP' - That demands a character whose early laning phase is about as unsuccessful as we can possibly make it.
>Furthermore, I do agree that her laning phase is miserable but consider the following: We've had to make every champion who could conceivably buy Revolver's laning phase miserable or toned down considerably. Could we actually buff Akali's Q to the point where it can kill a minion again then?
: > So then, will you be changing the power of said mages that as you say have a basically infinite mana pool? Because even on Xerath (during an actual siege where you are landing your spells), you can easily go very low on mana. I do have to kind of wait and see on this one. Infinite Mana is pretty strong - but Flat Mana tends to be stronger in the early game at solving costs in the short term. Additionally, most of the infinite mages (Ziggs, et al) have alternatives they can swap to (Tear) - that accomplish similar goals for them while still running the risk of going dry. Xerath, on the other hand, is definitely an outlier in this camp - but he's had some major updates and been tuned in this item world not the previous one. > Now a mage either has to get abyssal and sacrifice the sustain they need to fight back for long, or they go defenseless against the likes of a LeBlanc, Ekko, or Elise or Nidalee jungle. Most mid-range mages have several option if what they are primarily looking for is burst mitigation - the stat in question tends to be Health rather than magic resistance though - Catalyst, Guise and the like. The other half of this is that the early MR shred reduction on Abyssal Scepter cuts both ways. Manaless AP bruisers have less of a damage edge against you during this time due to both Abyssal being more expensive - them having less AP - and them shredding less by ~5 points or so. > These long range mages are going to be stuck until you release that item after the mid year update settles down -- which will likely take a few patch cycles. It's likely that a large camp of them will move towards Archangel's Staff - though it isn't perfectly ideal for them at times - while a different camp will opt into a more supportive path if they get shut down in lane. The people caught in the middle - Xerath, is an excellent example of this, has been receiving updates in the middle of all this. So there's a mixture of stuff going on - mage updates, item changes and stuff that it's actually hard to say where things will be when it's all said and done. My gut reaction is that the item choice for long range artillery is poor (namely that Liandry's Torment both is and is not suited for poke). I haven't really given Artillery any more tools to express themselves as Artillery - whereas Catalyst, Hextech Frost Cannon, Zhonya's with CDR - etc. all do make a statement for mages that may have to fight from time to time. It is a bit harder to figure out what to give Artillery - because usually the answer is: I kind of just want to shoot fish in a barrel.
Maybe mana regen on an item optimised for poke based mages would be a good idea. I feel like these champs are the more attrition based mages and a complete lack of mana regen might hurt them disproportionately. I feel like with the way your itemisation's looking champs like Xerath and Ziggs may just get forced towards FQC as a mana item, because that's the most optimal item for them.
: If the only use of this item is to increase spell ranges - I think the most likely thing is to just delete the item. Increased Spell Ranges is probably the most non-interactive part of the item that I'd want to item to support. It's a powerful use of the item - to be sure - but it's actually the part that I probably like the least out of all possible use cases. My initial hope was that a dash would allow for a lot more outplay potential of either dodges, escapes or burst moments - but if all the item becomes is 'initiate on a dude from way farther than he thinks' - that item has very very little value overall in terms of net effects as it's not really enabling anything interesting - it's just a way for Annie to cheat her spell ranges and nothing of value for pretty much anyone else.
I can't see everyone running it because it's just too expensive. It could however serve to limit the viable ADC pool to {{champion:236}} , {{champion:67}} , {{champion:42}} , {{champion:133}} and {{champion:104}} since you're giving people like Katarina and Ekko 300 more range to engage, which I doubt carries like Ashe could deal with.
: I'm not really liking the changes to spirit's visage and banshee's veil. It doesn't feel like tanks have any good MR options. AD bruisers have maw, AP bruisers have abyssal, and tanks used to have spirit's visage and banshee's veil, but now those two are being pushed away from having large amounts of health and MR. There are three different health/armor items for tanks to choose from, why are the health/MR options so lacking?
This may sound odd, but tanks have Cinderhulk, Rands, Sunfire and DMP. In the current state of the game tanks don't need massive amounts of MR. They get strong anti-burst from the amount of HP they can stack up. Tanks really don't need more than 100 or so MR to reach a point where mages can't burst them down even if they full combo+ult. I do agree with you on one thing though, tanks probably won't buy that version of SV unless they're Mundo. Actually out of those items Abyssal looks like it will be the best on most tanks. The changes look very positive for tanks and since they won't buy it early they don't have to worry about the drop in the aura.
: Yeah - it's highly likely that if anything causes the item to fail - it will be Annie interactions. It's a fairly dangerous and pretty experimental change overall.
>Yeah - it's highly likely that if anything causes the item to fail - it will be Annie interactions. It's a fairly dangerous and pretty experimental change overall. I'd say Ryze. This seems like just the item to break him, and if the +40 damage> permaban in competitive change showed anything it's that it doesn't take much to break Ryze.
: Tear is mostly intended to appeal to similar champions - although with the inability to get a good MP/5 item - I suspect that people who used to go Athene's for unlimited mana battery will use Tear as much more offensive alternative.
It looks like an amazing item on people like Syndra and Orianna now, especially with how well AAS and Seraphs work with Morello's.
: [Planned - 6.9] Mana x MP/5 x AP x MR Item Pass [Updated - 4/11/2016]
> Hextech Rocket Belt (Temporary Name) Active - Fire Bolt: Dash 300 units in a direction (at 1200 speed) and then unleash a nova of fireballs that deal 100 - 250 (+25% of your Ability Power) magic damage to enemies hit. Enemies hit by more than one fireball take 15% damage from additional balls. (30 second cooldown, shared with other Hextech items). This seems like it will only cause trouble. You're giving immobile mages, who's weakness is immobility an option to partially opt out of that weakness. Also I never want to see Ryze with this, ever. I just really feel like putting even a short ranged dash on an item is probably a bad idea.
: Oh yeah! I forgot to mention I have like 35% increased critical damage on runes!
You're not meant to build crit on Kog. You can AA 2x as fast, but your damage gets multiplied by 0.55, so W ends up being a 10% damage steroid, which is kind of pathetic. What you should do is just stack onhits, you're not even really building ADC, you're just building items that ignore the 0.55 multiplier. Good items are things like {{item:3153}} , {{item:3085}} , {{item:3115}} , {{item:3931}} (if you jg), {{item:3091}} and {{item:3022}} . Your core items are {{item:3124}} and {{item:3146}} . These two items synergise amazingly with each other and Kog. Rageblade gives on-hit damage and tons of AD and AP to make W stronger, as well as AS, all-round perfect stats. Gunblade gives you healing on all damage, including your on-hits. It also gives AD and AP to synergise with both Rageblade and W.
: > Well then why not just get rid of Skystrike? I was actually in favor of this approach for quite some time, but we thought it was something that players would be attached to, and that keeping it around at low power budget would be best. > Also, question on the side, does W still work while using Tag Team? Yeah, W still works during Tag Team without cancelling Tag Team. You can also cast Q and E from Tag Team, but they will remove you from Tag Team.
>I was actually in favor of this approach for quite some time, but we thought it was something that players would be attached to, and that keeping it around at low power budget would be best. If the damage is pathetic why would I ever enter melee range for it? It's going to be completely worthless.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slna,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=2q0vLyo8,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2015-10-29T00:29:48.848+0000) > > RIP AP Kog'Maw RIP AP? Maybe just different {{item:3153}} {{item:3115}} {{item:3091}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3089}} 5 attacks/s
Sub out Wits for Runnans.
: The problem with this is that it will move bottom lane to top lane every game UNLESS you make DRASTIC changes to Dragon because Dragon right now is U-S-E-L-E-S-S and I hate the stress and overpowering 5th Dragon buff, do something that has low cooldown respawn and small increments stacking bonuses (to the point that a team can get a 20 dragon lead, and such a lead will feel like a lead, but not have 5th dragon stress since games should be fun and not stressful)
>The problem with this is that it will move bottom lane to top lane every game Why is this a problem?
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotJag,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=z44jEiXG,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-10-28T21:13:06.747+0000) > > It's going to be very hard to solo. You'd have to be way ahead. The Eye Backstab makes it really easy to duo though. {{champion:35}} would like to have a word with you Though real talk, anyone with a pet is probably going to have a field day with this one. Yorick ghoul tanks, Shaco Box tanks, anything else im missing GO
>anything else im missing GO Jungle {{champion:143}} time.
: So because I argued logical points that I'm sticking to because you haven't debunked them, I'm only willing to see them from one side? I'm a professional coach and Analyst, and more than that I'm well known for thinking outside the box. I give every build, every idea, a chance. I gave Zyra mid a chance but her flaws are too obvious and painful, and I read your points with an open mind but you're saying the same thing over and over again when I've already told you the problem with Zyra. You don't want to believe me? Fine. Zyra hasn't been played mid -at all- in competetive since her release, and there's a reason for that. It's not item builds. It's the kit she has. It's her numbers. It's the role that mid lane has to take in a game.
>You're pulling arguments out of your ass because you don't have any. How can you even say that I'm biased against Zyra mid when I never said a single word about any of those other champs being viable as mid laners? Not as much as you buddy. "I've played against a Zyra mid main, wait no he was a Zyra support main who just so happened to play Zyra mid a couple of times." >You're pulling arguments out of your ass because you don't have any. How can you even say that I'm biased against Zyra mid when I never said a single word about any of those other champs being viable as mid laners? Taken from your list of mid laners at the first post. You didn't feel the need to say any of them weren't real mid laners though.
: So because I argued logical points that I'm sticking to because you haven't debunked them, I'm only willing to see them from one side? I'm a professional coach and Analyst, and more than that I'm well known for thinking outside the box. I give every build, every idea, a chance. I gave Zyra mid a chance but her flaws are too obvious and painful, and I read your points with an open mind but you're saying the same thing over and over again when I've already told you the problem with Zyra. You don't want to believe me? Fine. Zyra hasn't been played mid -at all- in competetive since her release, and there's a reason for that. It's not item builds. It's the kit she has. It's her numbers. It's the role that mid lane has to take in a game.
>Zyra hasn't been played mid -at all- in competetive since her release, and there's a reason for that. It's not item builds. It's the kit she has. It's her numbers. It's the role that mid lane has to take in a game. I have 1 question here. Why does this only apply to Zyra and not other champs on your list? Vel'koz and Karma have only been seen as supports since their release/rework and Vel'koz hasn't even seen much support play. Morderkaiser hasn't been seen at all since S2, Anivia, Swain and AP Corki are all competitive rarities. Malzahar saw play in one game since S1, he was picked as a joke in a game that didn't matter for tournament standings in Korea. And finally Teemo's never going to be a competitive champion. Why do you stand so against Zyra mid but you're OK with all these champs? Personally I think Zyra mid outclasses all of them except Swain and maybe Anniva. Your argument seems to hinge on "Orianna is better". Why can't this argument be applied to Vel'koz, Ziggs and Xerath, Kog'maw is better? Why can't it be applied to Malzahar? Cassiopia's a better Malz. Everyone's a better Morderkaiser, especially Yorick oddly enough. But no, for some reason you seem to be incredibly biased against Zyra mid. You ignore the advantages that Zyra has over Orianna like her better DPS and vastly superior defensive game and look only at Orianna's advantages. I never said that Zyra's better than Orianna, just that she's a viable champion to play in solo que.
: > [{quoted}](name=Best Ad Sona NA,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=0017000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-18T06:57:19.059+0000) > > Ori, Zed, Ziggs, Xerath, Leblanc, FIzz, and more recently Azir. > > Zed, Ziggs, Xerath, Leblanc and Fizz have all been out of the meta at some point, and it's way too early to judge Azir yet. He's never really had to face a super burst/bully centric meta yet, I have a feeling that would shut him out of the game fairly fast. All of those champions have been in meta and only not picked when someone outclasses them; I.e. when Ziggs was outclassed by Xerath so completely. > > You really can't say 'this champ doesn't work in the current meta and therefore will never work'. Annie for example would benefit from the same meta that would shut Azir out, as she tends to make the assassins that would infest that meta's lives hell. I said Zyra is outclassed as a mid laner, and unless the meta changes completely in a way I can't understand then Zyra will remain that way. Annie will never be a mid laner, same as Zyra, unless it's as a flex pick to confuse the enemy team. What Annie has over Zyra as a mid laner though, is that even though they're both inconsistent, atleast annie can flash engage. > > The seeds may be immobile, but she does get more than one. > > While the seeds can't be moved they have one big advantage over Ori's ball that you're completely neglecting. I can drop a seed where-ever I want to, with no travel time. That means I can create the plants zone of treat right on top of your head only giving you about 0.4 seconds to react. > 0.4 seconds to react to the slow moving line skillshot that is no doubt coming your way as soon as zyra places the seed. Unless you're saying you're throwing E and using W whilst E is midair. People will already be dodging the E so the plant is going to be a less scary concept. > While that zone isn't as threatening as the ball it's not overly important, why? Becase Zyra's also a zone. Unlike Orianna Zyra's immensely threatening to jump, you've even alluded to this when you mentioned her "kite back style". Zyra can immediately snare you into her ult knock-up, ori can only compete with this in her absolute best case, where she's standing on her ball snap-back line, but even then there's a delay before her ult. A zyra that has a tank in her melee range is a dead zyra. After 2 seconds her ult might knock the people killing her up, but the problem is, by then she's dead. E.g. Leona ults Zyra, E's onto Zyra, Zyra ults on her feet, Leona Q's Zyra, meanwhile Zyra is getting bursted/chunked. Maybe Zyra gets another ability off before she dies, but she does die. Enemies are knocked up. VS Leona Ults Orianna, E's onto Orianna, Ori ults and W's, then sheilds herself, no cast times, Leona Q's Ori, enemy team is cc'd and bursted slightly already, follow up is slower. If follow up is still there, Ori may or may not die, but atleast her abilities have gone off and her team has more time to follow up because the enemy team was instantly ccd. The carry can be saved. > > While you can drop the ball onto an initiator that's not giving you quite the advantage you'd imagine. You still have to remain within 1225 range of your ally, which is about Zyra's tip-ult range, meaning with someone like Malphite engaging you can land a Zyra ult on his targets just about as reliably as you can an Ori ult, you just need to pay attention to land a solid Zyra ult ie. move forward as Malph starts ulting. After you lay down your ult you can afford to move forward, since any attempt to dive you will end badly, at this point you can normally at least snare a tank and condemn them as their team runs, with the proper initiation you can knock up everyone and lead into a solid snare though. > You're making such silly arguments and it's doing my head in. You can't compare the "tip" of Zyra's ult with Ori's ball leash range for 3 very important reasons. 1. It takes 1.5s for Zyra's ult to reach that "tip", the ability is completely telegraphed so people will just walk out of it before they're hit by it. 2. Even those people that are hit by it won't die because you can't follow up, they aren't going to be cc'd by it as it's the tip. They will survive and do their job just fine afterwards. 3. Ori's leash range is not the range of her abilities. Her abilities start on that leash range, giving her and even longer range than zyra, even if we're being extremely generous and going by "the tip". P.S. Where are you getting the radius for Zyra ult from? > You're right, Zyra does need her plants damage to burst. Without them she probably has 75% of any other mages burst. But that damage isn't easy to avoid. Thornspiters are almost guaranteed a single AA, with a Rylai's and a Liandry's you can poke with a plant before a fight even starts by just using it's extended range to get off a single auto. Exactly, so she's better as a zoning champ than a burst mage. > Realistically you can't engage with an Ori ult unless > > * Your tank engages first, in which case a Zyra ult works > * It's over a wall, in which case a Zyra ult works > * You've been engaged on already, which is Zyra's best case > * The enemy teams asleep, in which case you may as well engage with a Karthus ult, you've won that fight already. Why can Ori not engage outside of those specific scenarios which happen to also work for Zyra? Most of those cases Ori does it better aswell, even kiting back which is Zyra's best case as you say, Ori does it better unless Zyra lands a 2-3 man root (which is not going to happen most cases). The reason Ori is just better as a mid is because her damage and cc come at a better range, more readily available and they come _at the same time_. If you drop a Zyra ult behind you the enemy team will walk around it or back off. That's why she's such a great disengage _support_. Enemies against a mid Orianna have no such luck with the ball. She leaves the ball there and if they walk over it, it's too late. If they don't, Ori loses out on no burst. > > You can't just walk up to the front line as Ori so you can slap the ball into the centre of their team and ult any more than you can walk up and ult as Zyra. Yes you can. Orianna has a huge range advantage over Zyra, that's what I've been talking about this whole time. Zyra cannot walk up to the enemy team and ult with a 700 range, slow moving, 2second delayed knockup. Orianna can place the ball 1000+ units away from herself and ult a further 400 units, instantly. After a, what, 0.5 second delay. This is increased by another 100 units if you place the ball on an ally. > > There are definite advantages to Zyra mid over Orianna. For one she has positive match-ups with the majority of assassins, there really aren't many utility based mages who can go up against assassins in the mid lane, Ori really struggles VS LB, it's one of the reasons why she's not been seen very much competitively recently. Orianna does do fine against Leblanc currently, and has done fine against her even when Leblanc was absolutely broken. Zyra does pretty well in lane, but that's because she's a laning champion. Why put a champion that's strong in lane and lategame fits into a peeling role in mid? She works perfectly for support. Win the lane with the adc, let them free farm, then late game transition into a peel support. If we were having this argument about Orianna as a support I would be saying the opposite thing. Orianna is honestly a decent support, but she's inhibited by mana costs. So she's a better midlaner, where she can freely build mana items and get blue buff without screwing her team over. Zyra however can provide more pressure with less mana and offers a much scarier zoning and peeling potential. > > I'm really not trying to say that Zyra's better than Ori, or that she's going to be pick No. 1 after the item changes. Just that she's a highly effective mid laner in the hands of someone who bothers to put the time into learning her and not "not really viable in solo que". You've even proven this by mentioning you've played against a D1 Zyra main, it doesn't matter how you've matched up against him, he has to be winning games to get there. He was, and still is, a support Zyra main. He won a lot more games with support zyra, and only played Mid zyra when someone took support. He would win mid, but lose the game most of the time as mid zyra.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you're only willing to see things from one side >P.S. Where are you getting the radius for Zyra ult from? I loaded up a game, put tape on my screen at the edge of her indicator (the AOE not the range) then I loaded in as other champs with targeted abilities to work out one with the same range. I tried Ryze (600) and discovered that was too big, then tried Lisandra (500? didn't seem like it) and it was way too small, then looked at Soraka (550) which lined up. Then I just doubled it to get the diameter. >0.4 seconds to react to the slow moving line skillshot that is no doubt coming your way as soon as zyra places the seed. Unless you're saying you're throwing E and using W whilst E is midair. People will already be dodging the E so the plant is going to be a less scary concept. She has another spell she can use, her range plants are almost always better, especially if you go Rylai's.
: P.S. These are the number differences between Zyra now and Zyra when her numbers were so broken she worked in mid: Passive: Damage was 549 now 440 Missile Speed was 2200 now 1900 Missile Width was 90 now 70 Q: Range was 825 now 700 Damage was 235 (+60% AP) now 210 (+65% AP) W: Cooldown reduction was 20% now 10% Delay before enemies can pop was 3s now 1.5s Plants attacking same enemy was 75% damage now 50% E: Was 240 damage now 200 Missile Speed was 1325 now 1150 R: Damage was 400 now 350
Bolded are the ones that matter >Passive: Damage was 549 now 440 Missile Speed was 2200 now 1900 Missile Width was 90 now 70 >Q: **Range was 825 now 700** Damage was 235 (+60% AP) now 210 (+65% AP) >W: **Cooldown reduction was 20% now 10%** Delay before enemies can pop was 3s now 1.5s **Plants attacking same enemy was 75% damage now 50%** >E: **Was 240 damage now 200 Missile Speed was 1325 now 1150** >R: **Damage was 400 now 350** You didn't include the most important nerf though Base MS 310(Now 335)>300(Now 325) If this nerf was reverted Zyra mid would be in a fine place.
: > [{quoted}](name=Best Ad Sona NA,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=00170001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-18T04:50:09.839+0000) > > This statement and this statement > > contradict each other. No they do do not. Being a midlane champion is not about burst, it's about being able to kill the carries, or to shut down a very specific comp there's niche picks. Look at the champions which have been strong throughout time, despite nerfs and meta changes: Ori, Zed, Ziggs, Xerath, Leblanc, FIzz, and more recently Azir. All of those champions have burst, yes, but they have weaker burst than other champions, especially when it comes to AoE. It's not about how much damage you can deal, the question is, can you lane well? Can you kill the enemy carries in teamfights? Now let's look at the has-beens: Galio, Zyra, Annie. These champs are never picked, and if they're picked it's for support role. Why? Because they can't kill the carry consistently. >I just showed you Zyra has the damage to kill a carry, at least as much as Orianna does. I know mid lane's not just about how much burst damage you can deal, that's why Zyra is a playable mid lane. If mid was just about how much burst you could lay down every game ever would have two assassins or an assassin and a Veigar mid. > Zyra can kill a carry with pure damage, maybe, yes. But the problem is in decent elos and in competetive, the carry is not going to die to zyra nearly ever. There's a massive front line in between Zyra and her targets. Zyra has to drop immobile seeds to deal her damage, where Orianna's ball is constantly mobile on a few second CD lategame. It provides an actual constantly moving threat to the enemy team. Oh, and she can just ball the initiator, or even an assassin that jumps on the backline. I know you're going to say that Zyra doesn't need plants to do her burst, but you're wrong. No one is going to get kited/disengaged by a Zyra mid comp. The plants are too easy of a threat to avoid thanks to seeds and Zyra has no escapes whatsoever. Being the carry of the team it's too easy to die to the enemy mid laner, who can actually do what I'm talking about. And no, no one is going to get hit by Zyra's E when they're not chasing her. It's incredibly slow. It's not an engage tool. > It's range isn't that limited. You don't have to get that close to use a Zyra ult offensively, it's a better defensive ult than offensive but it's still a strong follow up to an AOE engage like a Sej ult. Zyra's tip end range on her ult is fairly long too. I'm not sure on the exact diameter of the ult (not on lol wiki for some reason) but I think it's about 800, which combined with the 700 range means you can tip people at 1100 range, which is similar to Ori's leash range. > Exactly what I'm talking about, inconsistent. The only time you're talking about her ult being able to actually hit carries is when your sejuani ults them first. Why pick Zyra if you rely on someone else landing an ultimate when you can do the same with ori + have the ability to initiate yourself. > Except consistent damage and offensive utility, Zyra's kind of got her beat there. They both fill different niches, Zyra's much more offensively orientated, which means she has a much lower margin of error and takes much longer to master (note not pick up) than Orianna. Trust me here, when you run into a Zyra mid main all of this will suddenly make sense to you. > I've played against a Zyra mid main, a number of times in high diamond. He had decent laning and then would drop off into teamfights every time. He was too reliant on his team. Zyra isn't an offensively originated mid, she's a kite/disengage mid. She cannot engage, she relies on her team engaging and CCing in an AoE or the enemy team running after her team into her seeds for her to work. Do you understand what I'm saying yet? I've said it a few times already. It's not do with Zyra's burst, she will not be a mid champion unless the meta changes drastically, and even then I see Orianna as outclassing her in nearly every way.
>Look at the champions which have been strong throughout time, despite nerfs and meta changes: Ori, Zed, Ziggs, Xerath, Leblanc, FIzz, and more recently Azir. Zed, Ziggs, Xerath, Leblanc and Fizz have all been out of the meta at some point, and it's way too early to judge Azir yet. He's never really had to face a super burst/bully centric meta yet, I have a feeling that would shut him out of the game fairly fast. You really can't say 'this champ doesn't work in the current meta and therefore will never work'. Annie for example would benefit from the same meta that would shut Azir out, as she tends to make the assassins that would infest that meta's lives hell. >Zyra has to drop immobile seeds to deal her damage, where Orianna's ball is constantly mobile on a few second CD lategame. It provides an actual constantly moving threat to the enemy team. The seeds may be immobile, but she does get more than one. While the seeds can't be moved they have one big advantage over Ori's ball that you're completely neglecting. I can drop a seed where-ever I want to, with no travel time. That means I can create the plants zone of treat right on top of your head only giving you about 0.4 seconds to react. While that zone isn't as threatening as the ball it's not overly important, why? Becase Zyra's also a zone. Unlike Orianna Zyra's immensely threatening to jump, you've even alluded to this when you mentioned her "kite back style". Zyra can immediately snare you into her ult knock-up, ori can only compete with this in her absolute best case, where she's standing on her ball snap-back line, but even then there's a delay before her ult. >Oh, and she can just ball the initiator, or even an assassin that jumps on the backline. While you can drop the ball onto an initiator that's not giving you quite the advantage you'd imagine. You still have to remain within 1225 range of your ally, which is about Zyra's tip-ult range, meaning with someone like Malphite engaging you can land a Zyra ult on his targets just about as reliably as you can an Ori ult, you just need to pay attention to land a solid Zyra ult ie. move forward as Malph starts ulting. After you lay down your ult you can afford to move forward, since any attempt to dive you will end badly, at this point you can normally at least snare a tank and condemn them as their team runs, with the proper initiation you can knock up everyone and lead into a solid snare though. >I know you're going to say that Zyra doesn't need plants to do her burst, but you're wrong. No one is going to get kited/disengaged by a Zyra mid comp. The plants are too easy of a threat to avoid thanks to seeds and Zyra has no escapes whatsoever. You're right, Zyra does need her plants damage to burst. Without them she probably has 75% of any other mages burst. But that damage isn't easy to avoid. Thornspiters are almost guaranteed a single AA, with a Rylai's and a Liandry's you can poke with a plant before a fight even starts by just using it's extended range to get off a single auto. >Being the carry of the team it's too easy to die to the enemy mid laner, who can actually do what I'm talking about. A good Zyra player runs a second defensive summoner (personally I like barrier) as well as a durable build. Liandry's and Zonya's are basically core on Zyra and Rylai's is also a great item, the amount of durability you get from these items and your barrier/heal (assuming you don't take ghost, which has different advantages) combined with your strong CC make you hard to burst out and your surprisingly high damage makes you able to turn and kill anyone who decides it would be a good idea to jump on your face. >Exactly what I'm talking about, inconsistent. The only time you're talking about her ult being able to actually hit carries is when your sejuani ults them first. Why pick Zyra if you rely on someone else landing an ultimate when you can do the same with ori + have the ability to initiate yourself. Realistically you can't engage with an Ori ult unless * Your tank engages first, in which case a Zyra ult works * It's over a wall, in which case a Zyra ult works * You've been engaged on already, which is Zyra's best case * The enemy teams asleep, in which case you may as well engage with a Karthus ult, you've won that fight already. You can't just walk up to the front line as Ori so you can slap the ball into the centre of their team and ult any more than you can walk up and ult as Zyra. >Zyra isn't an offensively originated mid, she's a kite/disengage mid. She cannot engage, she relies on her team engaging and CCing in an AoE or the enemy team running after her team into her seeds for her to work. Zyra's a defensively orientated mid with an offensively orientated kit. Unlike Orianna her kit is offensively orientated because she has no ways to interact with allies. All of her kit is aimed at shutting down her enemies, which is an offensive process even when used for defensive ends like peeling for a carry. You'll find most characters can play both offensively and defensively in a fight, regardless of kit design. There's nothing to stop an Akali from jumping back onto a tank if her carry's in trouble, if the tank's within bursting range it's often the correct play, but it's a defensive play. Yet Akali has one of the most offensively designed kits in the game. >Do you understand what I'm saying yet? I've said it a few times already. It's not do with Zyra's burst, she will not be a mid champion unless the meta changes drastically, and even then I see Orianna as outclassing her in nearly every way. There are definite advantages to Zyra mid over Orianna. For one she has positive match-ups with the majority of assassins, there really aren't many utility based mages who can go up against assassins in the mid lane, Ori really struggles VS LB, it's one of the reasons why she's not been seen very much competitively recently. I'm really not trying to say that Zyra's better than Ori, or that she's going to be pick No. 1 after the item changes. Just that she's a highly effective mid laner in the hands of someone who bothers to put the time into learning her and not "not really viable in solo que". You've even proven this by mentioning you've played against a D1 Zyra main, it doesn't matter how you've matched up against him, he has to be winning games to get there.
: Being a midlane champion isn't just about burst, or else AP Ez would be meta. He has the highest burst out of any champion. Zyra was picked mid when her numbers were broken, and she was nerfed extremely hard, then people found her better as a support where her lack of mid-lategame consistency and longer lane for her plants made her decent. She's a poor mans Orianna by her inability to kill carries, as I said. Zyra ult is a disengage tool, its range is so limited that's all it can be unless the enemy team is positioning really poorly. Orianna does similar to what Zyra does, but better, because her ult can be a lot more flexible.
>Being a midlane champion isn't just about burst This statement and this statement >She's a poor mans Orianna by her inability to kill carries contradict each other. I just showed you Zyra has the damage to kill a carry, at least as much as Orianna does. I know mid lane's not just about how much burst damage you can deal, that's why Zyra is a playable mid lane. If mid was just about how much burst you could lay down every game ever would have two assassins or an assassin and a Veigar mid. >Zyra ult is a disengage tool, it's range is so limited It's range isn't that limited. You don't have to get that close to use a Zyra ult offensively, it's a better defensive ult than offensive but it's still a strong follow up to an AOE engage like a Sej ult. Zyra's tip end range on her ult is fairly long too. I worked out the diameter of Zyra's ult to be 1100 using Soraka's Astral Infusion as a standard (550 range), which combined with the 700 range means you can tip people at 1250 range, which is similar to Ori's leash range. >Orianna does similar to what Zyra does, but better, because her ult can be a lot more flexible. Except consistent damage and offensive utility, Zyra's kind of got her beat there. They both fill different niches, Zyra's much more offensively orientated, which means she has a much lower margin of error and takes much longer to master (note not pick up) than Orianna. Trust me here, when you run into a Zyra mid main all of this will suddenly make sense to you. ~~Edit: Fixed all Diameters
: Mid lane Zyra isn't a thing for a reason, she has no way of killing carries. She's basically a poor man's Orianna. Too inconsistent. Sadly these buffs won't change that. The only time she was picked mid was when her numbers were so broken it didn't matter that she was an inefficient mid pick.
You drastically underestimate Zyra. She's not a poor man's Orianna by any standards. Zyra's burst damage: 970+(215%AP) Assuming 1 auto attack each from 2 plants Orianna's burst damage: 910+(220%AP) Assuming full Q damage I'd say in terms of damage they're fairly comparable. Zyra has better DPS on top of that thanks to her plants and better CC, although Orianna has better overall team utility. Also it wasn't any damage nerfs that hurt Zyra mid, her damage is fine. What really hurt her was when they took away 10 base MS from her leaving her as the least mobile champ in the game.
: I didn't add Zyra because she's a solo Q only support, that would build those items mostly in lower elos. You kind of gimp your team by buying too many AP items at high elo.
Or you can play her mid lane mage, it's still a thing. I'd actually expect these changes to help out Zyra mid a lot. Also when Zyra was played competitively it was quite common for her to build Liandry's later into the game.
: Already strong champions that are buffed with these changes: Rumble Cass Vlad Kog Ekko Champs to look out for with these changes: Velkoz Swain Ahri Karma Anivia Honourable Mentions: Mordekaiser Karthus Malzahar Corki Singed [EDIT] Teemo Zyra - Specifically didn't add Zyra because in mid lane she's not really viable, and as support she's only good in solo Q. Deserves to be on the list though.
I think you should add Satan to at least the honourable mentions. With both Nashor's and Liandray's getting buffs that little rat's going to be worse than ever.
: The new jungle absolutely punishes assassins. Fighters however seem to do very well. Champions like Vi, Sejuani and Olaf seem to have no problem with exp in the new jungle.
Sej has major problems with the EXP, getting 6 as soon as possible is hella important on sej.
: Jungle feedback
x2 damage on smite would be way too powerful. Every jungler ever would take that upgrade, or any that gave a noticeable increase in the damage of smite since not doing so would insure you lost every smite off ever. Having that upgrade while your opponent does not would guarantee you every dragon/baron and most likely allow you to control 3 of the 4 buffs and remove the counter to counter jungling, which is basically to keep your cool, not panic smite and attempt to win the smite off.
Rioter Comments
: I concur, the new jungle is incredibly underwhelming. The new items don't offer much in the way of monster clear, and personally the smite upgrades feel a bit out of place. Large monsters also deal so much damage now that two pots doesn't cover the health that you lose in between camps, I find myself having to back so much that I lose out on valuable xp and gank opportunities. Over all I am not a fan of the new jungle system, if feels bogged down, like you guys just tried to shove so much strategy into it that you overlooked the over all play experience as a whole. I am not a fan of the Dragon, Baron, or the added buffs/Scuttle Crab minion. But that's a different thought-line entirely. All in all, the new jungle creates a lot of confusion at first, itemization feels completely underwhelming, choppy, and slow. This causes later ganks with lower level junglers while laners are already well into their scaling. I also feel as though the cost of upgrading the the new jungle items tends to be tedious, they aren't cost effective enough to want to buy any of them. The Smite alterations feel incredibly out of place as well, however I do understand the desire/need to diversify jungle as a position. Of all the things I don't understand about new jungle though, I am not quite sure why Smite's cooldown is so long, it's supposed to be there for you to clear camps, but now you have to clear a camp, fight the next camp down, and by the time that's done you may have 12 seconds left before smite is up, it slows down clear times immensely. Personally, I would like to see the general costs of these jungle items go down, or to change entirely, I would prefer Dragon to stay as a global gold amount as opposed to giving a passive stacking buff, Scuttle Crab and the new jungle buffs feel incredibly out of place. The new way jungle experience is dealt and the amount should also be changed, you can't honestly have junglers falling two or three levels behind at least not as early as they currently do, damage from major camps could also be reduced, increasing clear times for all and allowing the teams to scale properly without having a player who's behind purely because of itemization, or lack thereof. I have also found that it's far easier for damage junglers to just walk in and take whatever they like against their tanky counterparts, tanks now have no way to quickly take down their camps until later, much later, at least with the current three jungle items it gives the junglers an almost equal footing when it comes to early clear time with only minor differences. I feel as though this creates more of a need to play jungle quickly and competitively, the current changes turn jungle into essentially season 3 support, just with more farm. That's just my opinion though.
> Large monsters also deal so much damage now that two pots doesn't cover the health that you lose in between camps This isn't quite correct, large monsters AD is similar to S4 jungle, the small monsters have had an overall damage increase, for example at lv 1 the small chickens have 25 AD each and the big one has 50 AD, this means the small chickens have 60% of the camps damage at lv 1 so killing them first greatly reduces damage taken. The same thing is also true for wolves but to a far lower extent, I think the camps damage is split about 50/50 and comes nowhere near 125 combined AD at lv 1.
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Lankpants

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