: Talons threat is not what it used to be anymore. Ita not gone its just changed. The old talon just blinked on your face and mashed all the keys, now this one focuses on hitting your W first, and if they try and run you can chase, and if they try and turn they get crushed. As they said they dont want talon to be this jump in and get a tripple instantly type champion. Now you simply just have to put up more of a chase, or suprise them. Or just get super fed like in 90% of pbe games lol. I think except for need to make his E smoother, Riot did an amazing job with talon.
It's not like I don't recognize his change in power but my honest opinion is that his "power" right now is relatively weak. You say that now instead of blowing someone up you have to do a chase which for a champion like Talon who still wants to execute abilities in a quick manner will spell death for him. If you chase an adc you will be kites and because of your squishy nature it's gonna suck OR try to take an alternative route to reach him/her but you just used your E to get the carry so now you have even more limited methods. I think riot did a fantastic job in recreating Talon's theme but I do believe the execution needs work. I think letting E scale with cdr is definitely a step in the right direction and to be honest if they extend his q range and/or give talon a way to q mid E then he'd be fine, not perfect but definitely fine and will have much more ways to not only reach the target but to also make plays that potentially have that "wow" factor similar to champions like zed or ekko. I do not dispute the change of power and I certainly know that Talon's damage is there (before people focused on the quickness and lethality of his burst rotation now people have to work mostly with his passive) and I trust that riot will take the necessary steps to reach what hopefully they envisioned and what we as a community envisioned for talon
: Responding here since there's a couple posts in this sort of general direction. It certainly seems that Talon is weak, so I suspect that's contributing to a lot of these observations. In the next build, Talon will be buffed substantially (+5 AD, +5 HP/lvl, +0.2AD ratio on passive) to increase his baseline effectiveness and allow him to access some of his newer options more reliably. That said, I know there could be more to it. I really appreciate your (and everybody's) attention to those focus points. Things we have in out pocket in case target selection is, in fact, as bad as it seems: Q dash range up, E landing distance over wall up, R speed up. I'm hesitant to pull the trigger on these, as I know there's a huge learning curve on using E to position before a team fight, but I can imagine landing on any of those changes. If up front damage turns out to be the problem, the up front part to pretty much any of his abilities has some room for additional power. I'd like to see what happens with the current buffs and more time for people to learn the ins-and-outs of E before going any further. Thanks to everyone sharing their reactions like these! And keep it coming if things don't feel any different after a few games.
Thank you for your response and amidst all the criticism I do appreciate your hard work and attention on my favorite champion. It's not that talon needs all those buff necessarily but just even one of them would be fine. For me personally the two biggest issues are the short range of q and the long cd of E. Obviously both changes seem great (but really I don't know anything about balance) but I would prefer the q range increase for some lane presence or if talon has a way to quickly push waves so that he could roam that'd be great too.
: What if his E just has +flat movement toward an enemy? Like 750 range and starting at 20 or 30 and going up by 10 each rank?
Even then what this does it makes Talon a squishy Olaf, he'll get kited to oblivion. I don't really understand the logic behind Riot taking out his blink. Either make his dash similar to LeBlanc, khazix or ekko or let him blink... I mean zed, Katarina (who's hella broken) and ekko allow have it why is it that talon has lower range than all of them and is a dash that could be interrupted? I just believe riot made talon give up way too many things for the functionality of his E. On paper talons E is strong in game it's limiting to say the least.
: I'm noticing that a section of some walls don't go on cooldown when Talon E's over them (like the red line doesn't fully close around the terrain). Now for some this makes sense, like the back of dragon/baron pit, but sometimes small corners get left out which essentially gives a block of terrain a free CD that it probably shouldn't have.
That's intended the "range" as Riot calls it is like 1200 units. If we were to make the outline of the terrain a straight light and whatever is above 1200 units will not be marked with red.
: [Assassins] Talon feedback thread
I like the rework thematically...but Talon in game feels really weak. **_Anything at all about the new E. Is it fun? Difficult to use? Does it suit Talon? Bugs?_** It's fun, like really fun and I believe it does suit Talon but the CD on it to jump over the same terrain is simply too long. Riot wanted him to be a roamer but Talon is basically a really fast one time roamer and then mediocre for the next 2 minutes. My other concern is that it just doesn't do anything else, no damage, no other utility (like extra movement speed) and it's hard to tell where I would land. **_With his new but different set of mobility tools, do you feel able to get on your desired target?_** No, it's actually much harder to get to my intended target because Q's range is simply too low and E is extremely dependent on my target's position. If the target is not close to a wall then it's almost impossible unless I pop my ultimate for speed boost (which is not ideal). It would be nice if Talon could receive a longer dash or a mechanic similar to Ekko's E. **_With higher potential damage but lower up front damage, do you still feel empowered to kill your target enemies?_** Sadly, this is also a no. The damage on Talon is so delayed that by the time the full "potential" damage comes to play the target has been peeled for, dashed away or flashed away. There's counterplay but too much counterplay? Also, it doesn't fit Talon's identity. Talon's identity IS up front damage let the Zed's of the world have the identity of potential damage. **_When in the game do you feel powerful / weak (early / mid / late) and in which circumstances (enemy has all/no squishies, I was able to roam / I was pushed in, etc.)?_** Early: Feels horrendously weak. Q is my only dodge spell but also the best trading spell and W's delay feels bad in general. Mid: Definitely Talon's strongest point still but weaker than what it is on live. Talon can still pick people off just not as reliably which also limits his snowball potential. Late: Useless, yes I have damage but no reliable way to get the damage off (Q range too short, there's too much damage on the other side for me to kill, even if I do get in the teamfight I'm still a kamikaze suicide bomb but with even weaker AOE and more delayed burst). Rate: 4/10 Theme? Awesome. Execution? Not so awesome but I'm sure Riot will figure things out. **Update** This is an updated opinion I have after playing some more games and learning more of Talon's ins and outs post rework. I'll give my opinion on each ability and then give an overall opinion of the rework. **Passive**: This is what Talon plays around now. A large chunk of damage comes from this passive alone due to its high ratio (200% bonus ad scaling). This is also the reason Talon can out damage MELEE champions in laning phase. Since Talon needs to play around a 3 mark + 1 AA hit activation, his inherent burst is definitely slower (not by a huge margin) which is exactly what Riot was going for. **Q**: I still think this ability needs to have its range increased and/or be turned into a blink. Other than that, this ability definitely has a lot of damage tied into it and because of its low cd, Talon has some room for outplay with this ability. **W**: Has more damage than the current W which makes the Tiamat/Hydra buy not as core as before. I actually have really fallen in love with his ability because of its wave clear meaning I don't HAVE to buy Tiamat/Hydra just to push wave against the likes of Syndra, Viktor, Anivia, etc. Delay still kinda sucks but again Riot wanted Talon to have more of a delayed burst so it's okay (it'd be nice to see a slightly shorter delay though). **E**: The wall cd scaling off cdr is a big improvement and increases its usability however, this ability is still really lacking. If E were to get a small decaying movement speed boost I think this ability would be awesome. Other things to add, it would be great if Talon could Q mid-jump or towards the end of his jump to make the EQ interaction smoother. I also don't think R should be canceled by E (I am aware Talon could E and cast R mid jump which is nice) **R**: Tooltip is kind of confusing. Some people say that each individual blade does damage and others say its like the live version where R only hits twice. It'd be great if there was more clarity in the description. HIs R is fine though in my opinion. **Overall**: Talon has a ton of damage but still needs some bit more utility to stay sticky on his target. Also, this rework has definitely made me think more about what summoners to take and made me change my build (although the build isn't too drastically different). Basically, {{item:3142}} {{item:3158}} {{item:3071}} Edge of Night (new assassin item) {{item:3147}} {{item:3156}}/{{item:3026}}/{{item:3031}} I've also been liking {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:6}} more than {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:14}} Forcing me to change builds according to situations is a big plus for me for any champion especially if its my favorite champion. **Rework Score**: 7/10 **Pros** 1. Abilities synergies well with one another and does give Talon a unique feel 2. His damage is most definitely still there 3. Builds are not always the same, you actually have to adjust to the situation 4. Melee Laning matchups are better for Talon (going against ranged is horrible though). Honestly, his early damage is so high that I think Talon Bruiser top will be a viable thing but I need to test it out some more. 5. More slippery because of E (assuming you don't have walls on CD) 6. A lot of flanking options because of E **Cons** 1. E is still limiting and doesn't provide much to the table other than a one time fast roaming experience (during laning phase). 2. Hard to reach and stay on his target if a fight is in an open area. This is the reason why i opted for {{summoner:6}} than {{summoner:14}}. {{summoner:6}} has secured a lot of kills for me as well as took me out of a lot of bad situations and its short cd makes it a good pick. 3. If walls are on cd Talon is really limited in what he could do. Flanking options, escape options, engage options, traveling options all get limited all at once as soon as Talon uses a wall. 4. Ranged matchups are a nightmare to deal with (Lux, ZIggs, Morgana, Xerath, Syndra, Viktor are horrible) 5. Q is your gap closer and highest damaging ability all in one which actually sucks 6. 335 ms makes me sad

KyuJay

Level 30 (PBE)
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