: Graves Gameplay Update Feedback
Whelp CertainlyT I was wrong. He's crazy strong after lane, but gets smashed by poke early, giving him clearly defined powers. I would tone down the E defense buffs though, 120 armor/MR is excessive. If you really wanna keep it, lower stack amount and increase stack cap.
: You auto-reload after 4 seconds if you have 1 bullet in the chamber but haven't attacked -- this prevents you from running around for long periods of time stuck on 1 bullet with nothing to attack. You reload after a little more than 2 seconds if you fully empty the chamber.
> [{quoted}](name=CertainlyT,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=jnGRrEJW,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2015-10-29T05:11:18.073+0000) > > You auto-reload after 4 seconds if you have 1 bullet in the chamber but haven't attacked -- this prevents you from running around for long periods of time stuck on 1 bullet with nothing to attack. You reload after a little more than 2 seconds if you fully empty the chamber. OK, see, reloading faster if you are empty is much better. Makes farming WAY easier.
: Graves Gameplay Update Feedback
Also, how do you expect him to CS like this, if he can't auto attack without passive charges?
: After ~4 seconds of not attacking, Graves will automatically reload. There's no button to reload though.
> [{quoted}](name=CertainlyT,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=jnGRrEJW,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-10-29T04:13:06.608+0000) > > After ~4 seconds of not attacking, Graves will automatically reload. There's no button to reload though. Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying he can't auto without reloading and/or casting E? This is... Extremely problematic. It now sounds to me like this is a completely bad idea. A 100% burst focused "ADC" with minimal DPS potential. Unless, attack speed reduces reload time? But then you need a button to reload on command so he doesn't have to sit still for 4 seconds in a fight, and... Shit, I don't know. CertianlyT, this all seems like a bad attempt at focusing too hard on a burst close range fighter fantasy. Perhaps I'l be pleasantly surprised, but if I'm reading this right Graves is not going to have any real advantage over other ADCs in general. He'l have his burst, sure, but he's gonna get out DPSd by everyone.
: Graves Gameplay Update Feedback
How does his passive work with no bullets? Just a lower AD 425 auto attack? And how do you mean his stuff is reduced "substantially" from attack speed? Similar to Cait but reversed, with a much higher base attack speed? Overall, I'm very confused about how his passive works. I'm also worried that with the leaked items, the ADC meta will shift to a very strong early game casting focused meta, and without a way to deal with longer ranged ADCs in lane Graves will end up worthless in this meta. I've been very happy with the ADC reworks thus far, but this once concerns me immensely. He feels nerfed like crazy in lane versus ranged champs, and has way too much power budget in his burst, making him useless as a source of DPS. He feels more like a top laner to me at this point, I don't see him functioning well in a duo lane versus a ranged champ as is. He just seems too... Situational. I'm not even sure what to think overall, but I'm definitely confused and concerned.
: We've done base stat adjustments to ensure her laning is still reasonable. If anything she's probably less of a lane bully than she used to be especially when being played by a non-expert MF.
> [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T22:25:14.237+0000) > > We've done base stat adjustments to ensure her laning is still reasonable. If anything she's probably less of a lane bully than she used to be especially when being played by a non-expert MF. Interesting. What about high level ADCs in general, or "expert MF players?" Do you feel her laning will be weaker as well for them, or will they be able to make use of some of these new mechanics to bully as hard or better than before? Sorry if I'm questioning a bit too much, I'm very intrigued by these marksmen changes. I should also say I feel you've done a good job with MF here.
: There is no internal cooldown.
> [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T22:17:49.976+0000) > > There is no internal cooldown. My my, sounds like MF is going to be even more of an unholy terror in lane. Are you perhaps planning to give her Tristana's old U shaped power curve?
: Miss Fortune PBE Feedback Thread
Does Love Tap have an on character cooldown so MF can't simply weave harass autos between CS to destroy the opposing laner?
: Caitlyn Gameplay Update Feedback Megathread
How do you mean her auto attacks scale 10% less with her attack speed? Similar to the Kalista nerf of 90% AD autos, she just gains 90% attack speed from items? Or her base attack speed has been lowered such that she gains roughly 10% less total attack speed per % attack speed that she does now?
: Smaller 5.22 Marksmen Changes PBE Feedback Thread
I feel like some ADCs purely lose power here (see Draven, Varus). Are the item changes going to compensate for this? Also, why take away Tristana's lategame fantasy? I'm confused by the decision to force her into an all in caster type build rather than keeping the lategame DPS.
: Thanks for the super in-depth feedback! I know you guys are nervous about the amount of delay in the Q right now, in fact, when we initially put the Q change in we tried it at 0.5 seconds and found it to be too easy to hit. I literally ask the playtest team every day if they think the Q is too difficult to hit and they're very confident it's in a good spot. Specifically in lane, they use opponents going for CS as a window to start winding up or lead with E or W before going for a Q. What are your thoughts on Darius's overall power level at the moment?
Early laning slightly nerfed, heal is negligible if you're in a good enough spot HP wise to go in and land it. It CAN rarely make the difference in a duel. Still retains good bully status, but not as simply powerful as before. Bloodrage, if you somehow manage to proc it, gives a good piece of fighting power. Level 6 is still strong and threatening. Midgame spikes decently hard with level 5 Q. Dueling power is increased due to consistent W damage, and blood rage becomes easier to proc. Now that E max is your best option, once you hit level 13, aggressive shoving/roaming becomes possible to catch people out. Now that he gets so much free damage, and the option to build much tankier, dealing with him is difficult during this midgame. The E CD lowering so much with level, and the mesh of Black Cleaver into his kit makes catches much more frequent, and escape difficult for melee's with no dash. Kiting him is also more difficult, but this is fair IMHO. The added armor pen makes it difficult to counter build him, especially now that Hemorrhage procs Black Cleaver. Splitpushing is definitely his best bet, given how good he is in sustained battles, and catching low range foes. He's a bit too strong in this 1v1 situation; making the slow on W 90% at all ranks was a dangerous decision, especially with regards to this, now that E also has a slow for 1 full second. His tower killing power is still fairly high with W. I can't speak as much to his lategame; he ends the games too quickly with how hard he is to stop in the midgame. I would imagine he transitions to a very hard to kill tanky damage dealer type thing. Probably still not good at dives, but his peel is god tier now with the ease of pulling diving foes, I presume. Armor pen and ult help him take down tank divers, and assassin divers fall to shreds before him. I would imagine he maintains much of his splitpushing power lategame. Of course, this peel utility always existed with E, but it's even better now, especially with the slow, and the fact you can now max it 2nd easily. So, his endgame hasn't changed that much overall, but he feels much stronger at peeling than before. His dive is weaker due to the delay on Q, I would imagine. Overall, I like a lot of the changes in the earlygame, but his midgame dueling power/splitpushing is probably a fair bit overtuned, at least in part due to E max 2nd, and his passive gives him a lot of free damage in the endgame for how tanky he can build now. Just my humble poorly substantiated opinions from a few games and though, though. How's that for some in-depth feedback for ya?
: Hey all, Got some time to test him out this morning and talk with the playtest team. We definitely feel his presence in team fights is way higher than he was previous to these changes. My current concerns lie within the consistency of his laning phase and if he's just bit too soft there. Here's the changelist you guys will see in the next build: **Q** * Mana cost reduced to 30 from 40 **W** * Slow is now 90% at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80% **E** * Slow adjusted to 90% for 1 second from 99% for 0.75 These changes are aimed at making combo'd Q's pretty much guaranteed. We want to ensure that there is still ample counter-play to the Q when used alone, but we're pretty happy with Darius making it much easier for himself if he uses up his other resources successfully. Overall, we don't feel Darius is far off balance-wise in either direction, so we would like to take small steps at a time. We're also really interested in how Darius progresses over time as people get used to the new Q. Thanks guys.
> [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2015-08-05T21:16:08.746+0000) > > Hey all, > > Got some time to test him out this morning and talk with the playtest team. > > We definitely feel his presence in team fights is way higher than he was previous to these changes. > > My current concerns lie within the consistency of his laning phase and if he's just bit too soft there. > > Here's the changelist you guys will see in the next build: > > **Q** > > * Mana cost reduced to 30 from 40 > > **W** > > * Slow is now 90% at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80% > > **E** > > * Slow adjusted to 90% for 1 second from 99% for 0.75 > > These changes are aimed at making combo'd Q's pretty much guaranteed. We want to ensure that there is still ample counter-play to the Q when used alone, but we're pretty happy with Darius making it much easier for himself if he uses up his other resources successfully. > > Overall, we don't feel Darius is far off balance-wise in either direction, so we would like to take small steps at a time. We're also really interested in how Darius progresses over time as people get used to the new Q. > > Thanks guys. Alright guys, E max second is now without question the way to go.
: But he already had tons of damage, I doubt trading utility for even more damage helps.
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMLC,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T01:13:08.520+0000) > > But he already had tons of damage, I doubt trading utility for even more damage helps. There's not really much of a trade off; the massively reduced CD on his E more than makes up for the slow on W IMHO. Plus, like I said, the armor pen is really nice for damage. It even works on his passive now.
: * No longer grants Movement Speed per enemy champion bleeding * Now has a 0.75 second delay before swinging * Enemies hit by the handle no longer receive a stack of Hemorrhage * Fixed a bug where enemies would be pulled in if they escaped the area during the cast time My gut reaction here is that nothing you can give Darius will make up for these nerfs. His passive MS was essential for his teamfight mobility. Having almost a full second delay on his q will make it hell to land. No stacks on handle hit fucks up his fallback pattern combo. Not being able to pull enemies who were in the area makes it much harder to catch them - and while it was a bug it was a tremendous source of sticking power and he needs something better than a slightly stronger slow.
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMLC,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-08-05T00:58:08.942+0000) > > * No longer grants Movement Speed per enemy champion bleeding > * Now has a 0.75 second delay before swinging > * Enemies hit by the handle no longer receive a stack of Hemorrhage > * Fixed a bug where enemies would be pulled in if they escaped the area during the cast time > My gut reaction here is that nothing you can give Darius will make up for these nerfs. Trust me, the damage he gets in return is stupid.
: That's an interesting thought. We definitely have struggles keeping gameplay fair as the speed and pace increases later in the game. Haven't tried that yet, but it sounds super intriguing. If we find that he is not able to hit Q's later in the game, this might make sense.
> [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T00:45:04.000+0000) > > That's an interesting thought. We definitely have struggles keeping gameplay fair as the speed and pace increases later in the game. > > Haven't tried that yet, but it sounds super intriguing. If we find that he is not able to hit Q's later in the game, this might make sense. Glad to potentially be of help. Also, @others testing him; try maxing E second. Now that W damage doesn't scale up, maxing E second can give massive damage boosts against tanky tops, and the reduced CD is more valuable than on W IMHO.
: Gonna address a couple of points I've seen brought up: **E's Slow** Currently it's set to be a 90% slow for 0.75 seconds. It is designed to help ensure that E -> Q is a fairly guaranteed combo. **Lack of an Execution Indicator** We purposely left this out of Darius's update for design reasons. Darius's design and balance actually revolves around his R's success and failures more than any other champion in the game. Because of this when we added an indicator, the Darius gameplay became too much about just reacting to a UI element changing rather than making interesting, risky, and snappy decisions in the heat of battle that might cascade into a pentakill. In a lot of cases we would prefer consistency across our champions, but in the Darius case we feel like the lack of the indicator allows us to retain power in certain areas and makes him more enjoyable in the long run. **Removal of Passive Movement Speed** This is essential to the direction we are moving the Juggernauts. They are intended to be and feel slow, but hopefully have a ton of other strengths to bring to the table to compensate. This change became extremely important to make especially after we changed Hemorrhage to deal physical damage due to the insane synergy Darius now has with Black Cleaver. **Q Delay** Along with Bloodrage, this is the most significant change we made to the kit and we feel it's 100% necessary for the long-term health of the champion. We've struggled in the past to make melee vs. melee combat interesting and skill-based, so this is us trying to address that. I know it can be pretty painful to get used to, but we've tested it pretty thoroughly and feel you guys will be able to get the hang of it. Adding the delay allows us to load more power into the Q (the heal and increased late game damage) without just making him unstoppable in lane and other dueling scenarios.
> [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-08-05T00:35:34.903+0000) > > Gonna address a couple of points I've seen brought up: > > **E's Slow** > Currently it's set to be a 90% slow for 0.75 seconds. It is designed to help ensure that E -> Q is a fairly guaranteed combo. > > **Lack of an Execution Indicator** > We purposely left this out of Darius's update for design reasons. Darius's design and balance actually revolves around his R's success and failures more than any other champion in the game. > > Because of this when we added an indicator, the Darius gameplay became too much about just reacting to a UI element changing rather than making interesting, risky, and snappy decisions in the heat of battle that might cascade into a pentakill. > > In a lot of cases we would prefer consistency across our champions, but in the Darius case we feel like the lack of the indicator allows us to retain power in certain areas and makes him more enjoyable in the long run. > > **Removal of Passive Movement Speed** > This is essential to the direction we are moving the Juggernauts. They are intended to be and feel slow, but hopefully have a ton of other strengths to bring to the table to compensate. > > This change became extremely important to make especially after we changed Hemorrhage to deal physical damage due to the insane synergy Darius now has with Black Cleaver. > > **Q Delay** > Along with Bloodrage, this is the most significant change we made to the kit and we feel it's 100% necessary for the long-term health of the champion. We've struggled in the past to make melee vs. melee combat interesting and skill-based, so this is us trying to address that. > > I know it can be pretty painful to get used to, but we've tested it pretty thoroughly and feel you guys will be able to get the hang of it. Adding the delay allows us to load more power into the Q (the heal and increased late game damage) without just making him unstoppable in lane and other dueling scenarios. Alright, fair enough with the Q delay. But what do you think of making it scale down with level? It would allow you to retain the lane nerfs, but make it easier to hit lategame, when it REALLY counts. Or do you think that would just be confusing for the player?
: Can we please have an execute indicator for Noxian Guillotine? (similar to Cho’Gath)
> [{quoted}](name=Not The NSA,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-04T23:58:52.754+0000) > > Can we please have an execute indicator for Noxian Guillotine? (similar to Cho’Gath) Not to use buzzwords, but I feel like that would, in conjunction with Hemorrhage stacks, create a messy image without clarity.
: Darius PBE Changelist and Feedback
Just quickly looking it over, I like a lot of these changes, but I have just a few questions. 1. What was the rationale behind adding a cast time to Q? I fully understand nerfing his laning, it was rather oppressive to melees and squishies. But the cast time seems unsatisfying to the player, and may mess up some timing to hit with the blade. I feel like it may be a more substantial nerf than you intended. 2. Is the new slow on Apprehend a tiny slow, or a major (90%) slow? 3. With the combined W duration nerfs, attack speed reductions, and delay on Q, do you feel like this is a fair nerf to his already bad ability to be kited, or do you believe the increased slow on W and the slow on Apprehend make up for it, and shit the kitability to more "downtime" on his abilities than general kitability? I'm sorry if 3 doesn't make sense. Overall though, I feel like it's a good piece of work here. I especially appreciate the inclusion of Bloodrage AD into the ult damage.

Koshigaya Suguru

Level 30 (PBE)
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