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: You can find the answer to this by testing it in the training tool.
Sadly my GPU died so I can't :( That's why I'm asking. Plus there are so many cases that it would be cool to just know the global rule to apply over on-hit effects :) Thanks for your answer.
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: There is so much hidden data that complicates things :P Would you be able to tell me his Base Health at lvl 9 please ? :) (so I can take this as a basic to my example calculation)
I started to think a little and realised that instead of asking you things, I could just find them myself xD So, Vlad's Health at lvl 9 without any items/runes/masteries is 1 117 HP. Edit : You can laugh at me, I just realized this was written just 2 comments before... FML >_< Let's do some maths :D Facts : At level 9, with the setup in my first comment, Vlad's : - Base Health : **1117** - Real Health : **1440** - Real AP : **180** - Passive's Health : **174.22** - Passive's AP : **5.98** Rabaddon is giving **47** AP as per shown in game. Passive's AP calculation is : Bonus Health x 0.04 Passive's HP calculation is : AP Tentative maths : First, let's find Vlad's AP and Bonus Health without considering his passive. AP = Items + 0.83/lvl = 120 (Rabaddon) + 0.83 x 9 + 44.6145 (Rab's passive) = **172.0845** Bonus Health = ((Base Health + 45) x 1.09) - Base Health = ((1117 + 45) x 1.09) - 1117 = **149.58** Now for the passive : Passive's AP = Bonus Health x 0.04 = 149.58 x 0.04 = **5.9832** Passive's HP = AP = **172.0845** Now, for the total HP and AP formulas : Total AP with Rabaddon = (120 + 0.83/lvl + Passive's AP) x 1.35 = (120 + 7.47 + 5.9832) x 1.35 = **180.16182** Total HP = (Base Health + 45) x 1.09 + Passive's Health = (1117 + 45) x 1.09 + 172.0845 = **1438.6645** Let's use the usual rounding method (.0 to .4 rounds down, .5 to .9 rounds up) on these numbers, et compare with PBE's. - Real Health : **1440** on PBE versus **1439** in calculations - Real AP : **180** on PBE versus **180** in calculations - Passive's Health : **174.22** on PBE versus **172.08** in calculations - Passive's AP : **5.98** on PBE versus **5.98** in calculations So, AP side, no issue. We get the same value as on the PBE. Problem comes from the Health part. Notice that we have a 1 HP difference between Real Healths and a 2.14 HP difference between Passive's Healths. So this would mean that, somewhere outside the passive, we got 1 more HP than supposed to (if the Passive is lacking 2 HP, we should have a 2 HP difference in total. We have only 1 here). One may think that instead of 1117 Base Health, Vlad has 1117.XX Health (rounded when displayed). This would mean, at max, 1117.44 HP as Base Health. Same for Veteran Scars, with 45.44. Let's try with these numbers : Total HP = (Base Health + 45) x 1.09 + Passive's Health = (1117.44 + 45.44) x 1.09 + 172.0845 = **1439.6237** Which would then be rounded to 1440 and displayed as such in game. So, about total HP, calculation would be ok ! But wait ! There's the Passive's Health in this calculation. And we've already stated that it was different than displayed in game (172.08 to 174.22). Ow, this invalidates the previous calculation :/ But isn't there a problem here ? Let's take the Total HP calculation formula, with live values : Total HP = (Base Health + 45) x 1.09 + Passive's Health = (1117 + 45) x 1.09 + 174.22 = **1440.8** Which would then be rounded to 1441 and displayed as such in game... So, either numbers or formula is wrong. As the formula looks good, let's tweak the numbers in the same way we did before. Total HP = (Base Health + 45) x 1.09 + Passive's Health = (1116.45 + 44.45) x 1.09 + 174.22 = **1439.601** This works ! So we may assume that Veteran Scars doesn't give 45 health but 44.45 (could be confirmed with other calculations, not going this way now) and that Vlad's Base Health at lvl 9 is 1116.45. Ok so, how do we find 174.22 as Passive's Health then ? Wait... Remember how Passive's Health is calculated ? Passive's HP = AP So this means that Vlad's AP, not considering his Passive (as it doesn't stack with itself) is 174.22. Let's check how AP is calculated. AP = Items + 0.83/lvl = Items + 7.47 So, if AP = **174.22**, then Items = **166.75** As the only item on Vlad (in my setup) is Rabaddon, this means Rabaddon is giving us 166.75 AP. We know the item in itself is giving 120 AP, this means its passive is giving us 46.75 AP (which would concur with the 47 shown in game, all good until now). We know Rabaddon's passive is giving 35% more AP based on what we have. This means we can represent this calculation with the formula : X x 0.35 = 46.75 Let's divide both sides by 0.35 then ! X = **133.57** (rounded) X is composed of Rabaddon's own AP, 120. Let's take it back from it and call the result X'. X' = **13.57** Soooo, what is X' made of ? We can't assume it's made of 7.47 (Natural Talent's AP) because we took it back in the first place. Maybe not the smartest move... Let's redo this ! AP when you have Rabaddon = (Rabaddon's AP + 0.83/lvl) x 1.35 (Rab's passive) = (120 + 7.47) x 1.35 = **172.0845** Crap, still stucked. Let's take it in another way ! AP when you have Rabaddon = 174.22 (as per shown in game) (120 + 7.47 + X) x 1.35 = 174.22 Let's divide both sides by 1.35 127.47 + X = 129.05 (rounded) X = **1.58** Where does this number comes from ? Hell if I know. But if the passive really doesn't stack with itself, then it's not from there. But then, we should have only Rabaddon and Natural Talent to consider. Which would then give 172.09 as AP and then as Passive's Health. Furthermore, let's calculate Rabaddon's passive with this X value. (120 + 7.47 + 1.58) x 0.35 = **45.1675** Not 47 as shown in game... @Stashu : if you spot an error in my calculations, please point it out. Cause I'm really trying all scenarios here, and can't find one that works :/ Maybe the order in which passives are calculated ? I don't know.
: Okay I did my own experimenting, and this is what I found: At lvl 9 with no runes/masteries, Vladimir has 1117 health. With natural talent, Vlad gets ~ +7 AP, and with veterans scars+9% health (for +149 hp total), he gets an addtional 6 ap from his passive. With deathcap, that's (120* 1.35)+(13 * 0.35) more AP = 166. So, total health should be [1117 (base) + 45 (veteran's scars) + 7 ( hp from natural talent's AP) + 166 (hp from deathcap's AP)] *1.09 (veteran's scars), which would bring it tooooo....1455. I see 1440 in game, which leaves 15 HP unaccounted for here. Agreed, it would seem veteran's scars is not multiplying the bonus health from Vlad's passive, as that would neatly explain it ( [166 + 7]*0.09 = ~15). I'll check it out!
And there is another question rising here :D The passive is giving Vlad Bonus Health, this is a given. But are the runes applied to this Health ? Meaning he would get 9% of his passive Health as Bonus Health. If so, does his passive apply to the Health given by runes ? If yes, then you need to add 4% of his Bonus Health given by runes to his AP. But if you do that, you get bonus AP. Which Rabaddon apply on (on a rate of 35%). Etc etc. Do you know what's the implemented rule that stops in this loop case ? Maybe %Health runes are calculated only one time and before calculating Vlad's passive ? (that's really a tricky case, I'll admit that :P) Edit : I forgot, I have to give you a huuuuuuuuuuuge thank you for answering me. My previous report comes from 2 years ago, I never had an answer on it and it was bugging me since then (I'm not the kind to forget things bugging me xD). Means a lot to me to have answers :) I saw in another of your comment that communication was a weak spot of yours, well I think you're really going into things here and taking into account our remarks. Hugely appreciated. And about the mini-rework of Vlad : I like it. The new E introduces a new way to play, and I really dig into playing with him in real games :) (PBE can be too laggy from Europe ^^) Looks like a lot of fun and a lot to learn, as there is now more technic to get to make E work.
: That is... mostly correct! His lvl 1 health is 550, but the growth factor is tricky. Champions get a variable amount of the growth factor by level (i.e ~70% going from lvl 1 >> lvl 2, ~125% going from lvl 17>>18, and a whole bunch of shenanigans in between for smooth power scaling)
There is so much hidden data that complicates things :P Would you be able to tell me his Base Health at lvl 9 please ? :) (so I can take this as a basic to my example calculation)
: I noticed that the passive was stacking improperly and took a stab at fixing it. I believe it should be good now, but please let me know what you find!
Just to make sure all my calculations are correct : When you say "Base Health" it means Health at level 1 with no masteries/runes/items ? And when you say "Health growth factor", it means the number of HP gained by level after level 1 (e.g. level 2, Vlad with no masteries/runes/items is supposed to have 550 + 84 HP) ? Am I correct ? Edit : Considering the above affirmations, I have discrepencies between PBE and calculations :/ First, is there a simpler way to talk other than via this forum ? (only to share calculations without copy/pasting huge chunks of text :D) Twitter would be cool :) (not asking for a mail or such xD) To keep things simple : At lvl 9, with only Rabaddon as an item, masteries at 12/0/18 (relevant ones being Veteran Scars and Natural Talent) and %Health runes (seals + quints), I find : - on PBE, 1440 HP, 180 AP - in my calculations 1486 HP (rounded up, real number is 1485.92542), 181 AP (also rounded up, real number being 180.67212) Passive values look incorrect, but my reasoning may be flawed. Also note that I used one iteration considering Rabaddon's passive (using the 35% AP given by Rabaddon to increase the HP gained via passive). This HP should then be applied to %Health runes, and then giving more AP, etc. (I gave an algorithm on the previous topic I quoted in my first post, with a stop when the difference between 2 iterations is inferior to 0.01) I hope I'm making myself clear ^^
: I noticed that the passive was stacking improperly and took a stab at fixing it. I believe it should be good now, but please let me know what you find!
Will do ! Thanks for answering :)
: MYMU - Vladimir Discussion
Hello Stashu, and already thanks a lot for your work here ! One question about Vlad's passive : has the stacking bug been corrected ? (reference : I'm actually doing some testing with various setups on the PBE to check that, but I'd also like to have your insight :)
: [Vladimir] - Crimson Pact stacks with itself + wrong life total calculation
Hoping it's not forbidden (I didn't find anything specifying that), let's make a little UP :)
: Thanks! And sorry, I'm not as good at picking out all the numbers. Like I'm said, I'm not a programmer, and though I'm sure I could figure it out, I feel like I would miss something, somewhere.
You have nothing to be sorry about ! Just throw the ideas, it'll always help !
: No problem! Well thanks for the correction. I'm glad you have the experience and the patience to go through all this stuff. I usually just speculate. Works out well enough usually, but not like this. xD If you're right, then yes, it's absolutely a bug... although I wonder... perhaps what I suggested might still be plausible. I don't have any idea why this might be the case, but suppose the percentage runes only apply to base stats, whereas Juggernaut and item passive bonuses apply to base and bonus stats. I'm just trying to reason out why Riot would make Vlad work this way. Beyond that, he's a champion I've really wanted to dig into for a while. He's lots of fun, and fairly versatile in the carry/caster/tank departments. He's one of those particular champs that (imo) needs a lot of research before you can play him properly so that you understand exactly how each of his abilities and potential items interact with one another. (Besides, I really like his new skin.) Anyway, I'm glad I had the opportunity to talk with you about this. Best!
Let's talk about this :D It's constructive ! **First, the thing I told you I'd check tonight.** I tried to run Vlad with no runes and the VS and Archmage masteries. Result : Passive says 233.24 HP (not 236.32 because the passive's AP bonus changed) and 6.73 AP at level 18. (VS bonus + Passive's Health bonus) x 2.5% -> (36 + 233.24) x 2.5% = 6.731 So it proves it's independant from the % Health runes (at least this part of the calculation. The problem talked about in OP is still there). **Interesting fact** : Rabadon said it gave me 40 AP bonus. 36 of it is from Rabadon itself (120 x 30%). 4 are left. 6.73 x 30% = 2.019. Still 2 left. Where do they come from ? **I don't know.** **Second, your point about the fact that runes and masteries may apply in different ways** > suppose the percentage runes only apply to base stats, whereas Juggernaut and item passive bonuses apply to base and bonus stats. Let's go :D The formula would be : ((1930 x 9%) + ((1930 + 36) x 3%) + 36 + 236.32) x 2.5% = 12.625. Not 12.71 (but close). In fact, if you take something off the formula (as it is there), you'll have an inferior result, but with these numbers, the results will be close. I guess only Riot will be able to tell us what the real formula is ^^ (and I guess it will be hard to find in the code, as it must be tricky ^^ and probably not all in the same place. Good luck Riot !) > I'm just trying to reason out why Riot would make Vlad work this way. I think it's not intended. But it's a guess. > Anyway, I'm glad I had the opportunity to talk with you about this. I'm happy too to find someone to discuss this with :D As of now, I only had a friend with whom I shared my discovery and try to find the right formulas (we had many tries before reaching what I wrote in OP). Thanks :)
: Oh by the way... I meant the % modifiers work multiplicatively in the sense that they multiply by the stats they modify, rather than adding a flat amount into them. We might be talking about slightly different things? I might not be very clear either. Sorry, haha!
Indeed, I don't seem to get you xD Right now, I understand it as "the % modifiers have to be multiplied by the stats they modify". Which is logical, and what is done yes ^^ But I guess I don't understand you xD Can you provide a formula as an example ? Maybe it'll be clearer.
: Well done! upvote for you sir.
Thank you :) I added some informations, as it seems my assumption on the algorithm used to calculate Vlad's passive is erroneous (the fact it's bugged is still valid, but I don't think I'm right about the way it works now on live). Edit : Woops, I made a huge typo, I didn't take into account the base health difference depending on levels. Now, you can see that the main problem is at level 12, where it doesn't match :/
: Hey Kh0ral, good job catching this... BUT After doing some research, I noted that this is already documented in the League Wiki. Vlad's passive does not stack with itself unless an AP/HP percentage modifier (such as the Juggernaut mastery or the Rab Cap passive) is applied to him. It is possible that this IS a bug, but I have a hard time believing that one would be on the Wiki without Riot already taking care of it. I think the reason this might currently be intentionally implemented into the game is that the percentage modifiers apply a multiplicative scaling to a champ's stats, not an additive one. Because of this, there is no set amount of AP the Rab Cap passive provides, nor is there a set amount of health that Juggernaut provides. Because these bonuses do not come from flat sources like the 120 AP provided by Rab Cap before the percentage bonus, the game might not recognize that it has already given bonus health for the bonus AP provided by Rab Cap's passive, which in turn means it does not recognize that it is then giving more AP for health that it has already granted as a bonus. Of course, this cycle deteriorates as the percentages multiply by one another until the increases are negligible. Now I have to say, I'm no programmer, and that's all speculation, but if I correctly understand the way the game handles those numbers, this is not a bug. Okay well you could still make a case that it is, and that Riot could implement some bit of code that tells the game to recognize those bonus modifiers, but barring that, I think that Crimson Pact is perfectly fine the way it is. Hope this helped!
Hi :) Thanks for your answer ! I saw it was documented on the wiki (although in an unclear way in my opinion). According to this same wiki, the masteries/runes of % Health stacks additively, not multiplicatively (unlike the Rabadon's passive and Archmage). The problem here isn't directly about the % Health anyway, as you can see in my calculations : the Health part of the passive is directly taken into account to calculate the AP part (I didn't check it ingame, but I will when I come back from work). To be a little clearer : If the only problem were that the runes/masteries of % Health (or % AP) weren't correctly taken into account, I'd be fine with it. It would mean such a small difference that it wouldn't need a bug report (with the setup I provide here, it would mean a 0.70 AP diff, and a 3.83 Health diff). But here, with this setup, we are almost doubling Vlad's AP (12.71 instead of 7.5). In the end, I don't think it's a game breaking thing (you lose little health, you gain little AP). But it's a bug anyway. I agree it might be tricky to code (actually, I'm a professional developer, and I stumbled across this problem while trying to code a builder :) the values I got weren't the same as the ones I saw ingame), but it's not impossible. The algorithm I provided is there to prove it. Edit : Still, reading myself I don't think I'm clear enough xD Numbers ! (((Base Health + VS bonus) x % Health bonus) + VS bonus + Passive's Health bonus) x 2.5% -> (((1930 + 36) x 12%) + 36 + 236.32) x 2.5% = 12.706 This is what I wrote in the bug report. Let's take out the % Health part. (VS bonus + Passive's Health bonus) x 2.5% -> (36 + 236.32) x 2.5% = 6.808 Bear in mind this is just supposition. I'll check if this is the real number ingame when I come back from work, but if it is, then it means the passive stacks with itself even without the % Health part.
: Noooo dont nerf my vlad~
I agree. I think the calculation needs to be corrected, then the champ itself needs to be adapted to not be nerfed (maybe go back to the old Vlad ?)
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