: Midseason Durability Feedback
It looks like Helm may leave Liandry's in a really underwhelming spot. That's probably okay, since the item is such a niche pick right now. It also provides an opportunity to do follow-up work to try to fix its identity crisis.
: This argument is based on two points - both of which I fundamentally disagree with - which is where the problem is coming from: 1. Coin is "supposed" to be for enchantress style supports. 2. Every style of support should have an item that is "perfect" for them and "worse" for everyone else. I disagree fundamentally for both points - as first and foremost - my goal is to ensure that there are two options that are worth considering for every support champion - not looking at some kind of archetypal - well, I'm an X - so I should build Y. The point that frequently gets glossed over is that - if you are an **optimal** item user - your champion baseline power level is going to be much less than it would otherwise as it is tied up in the power level of the item. Perfect item sets for champions **nerfs** them in the end by making them incredibly binary and item dependent - something that should be incredibly worrisome for enchantress style supports who are contingent on having allies as a large part of their success criterion. This is an unavoidable facet of the item system, unfortunately - but it does not mean that you chase perfect items for champions. It's pretty much a cost you have to pay when you're making powers and abilities that you need to be restricted onto a particular subset - but it always comes at a cost of flexibility and choice for those champions involved. Essentially - the path you're pushing forth is that item scaling should be the same across characters. Each character should scale with the item system at roughly equivalent power levels and have a set of items that scale them roughly the same. I fundamentally disagree with this notion - as it's always going to be champion specific as to whether or not they should scale more or less. In the end, unfortunately, the base thing to recognize is that our goals are fundamentally at odds with one another. I'm not saying I'm correct in the end - the world might be better off if we just made like 7 items that were perfect for Singed - and make sure that everyone has 7 items that they were perfect on. Seeing the effects of things like Brutalizer or any time we've actually made perfect binds - I've generally really disliked the result - as those champions became incredibly performance bound and binary due to it.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=NT7UcOWt,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-16T03:10:33.226+0000) > > This argument is based on two points - both of which I fundamentally disagree with - which is where the problem is coming from: > > 1. Coin is "supposed" to be for enchantress style supports. > 2. Every style of support should have an item that is "perfect" for them and "worse" for everyone else. > > I disagree fundamentally for both points - as first and foremost - my goal is to ensure that there are two options that are worth considering for every support champion - not looking at some kind of archetypal - well, I'm an X - so I should build Y. > > The point that frequently gets glossed over is that - if you are an **optimal** item user - your champion baseline power level is going to be much less than it would otherwise as it is tied up in the power level of the item. > > Perfect item sets for champions **nerfs** them in the end by making them incredibly binary and item dependent - something that should be incredibly worrisome for enchantress style supports who are contingent on having allies as a large part of their success criterion. > > This is an unavoidable facet of the item system, unfortunately - but it does not mean that you chase perfect items for champions. It's pretty much a cost you have to pay when you're making powers and abilities that you need to be restricted onto a particular subset - but it always comes at a cost of flexibility and choice for those champions involved. > > Essentially - the path you're pushing forth is that item scaling should be the same across characters. Each character should scale with the item system at roughly equivalent power levels and have a set of items that scale them roughly the same. I fundamentally disagree with this notion - as it's always going to be champion specific as to whether or not they should scale more or less. > > In the end, unfortunately, the base thing to recognize is that our goals are fundamentally at odds with one another. I'm not saying I'm correct in the end - the world might be better off if we just made like 7 items that were perfect for Singed - and make sure that everyone has 7 items that they were perfect on. > > Seeing the effects of things like Brutalizer or any time we've actually made perfect binds - I've generally really disliked the result - as those champions became incredibly performance bound and binary due to it. Along those lines. Would it be possible to change relic shield and its upgrades to add the execute to ranged champions as well... IF they're in melee range of the minion they want to kill? Or just add it always but make the heal weaker for ranged champions. I think the counterpoint here is, what if we made 12 items that were perfect for singed but also sufficiently distinct? He'd have both meaningful choices and could be balanced without regard for other champs abusing his items. That said, I personally would not like this direction. That particular solution would be extremely complex, and at this point you might be better off using HotS's point system (or something like it). I actually really like League's original design: dual AP/AD scaling for all champs. Situational building to opt into a different playstyle is really cool, although you mostly have to make that choice in champ select. I also take a long time to learn new champions, so I like being able to retain my mastery of a champion's mechanics when playing them in another role.
: It's definitely true that in order to capture the same feelings of items - we'd have to look into making items that make you care about your allies more - or ways for you to feel like you can aggressively defend allies using your own style. It's a tricky item space to work with - as evidenced by Harbinger - how do you make a protective item that isn't wholly a subservient item? It's not altogether clear that the item system would be terribly off if we didn't support this entirely - but it'd be space we'd be leaving on the table.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=NT7UcOWt,comment-id=0006000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-17T00:00:13.718+0000) > > It's definitely true that in order to capture the same feelings of items - we'd have to look into making items that make you care about your allies more - or ways for you to feel like you can aggressively defend allies using your own style. > > It's a tricky item space to work with - as evidenced by Harbinger - how do you make a protective item that isn't wholly a subservient item? > > It's not altogether clear that the item system would be terribly off if we didn't support this entirely - but it'd be space we'd be leaving on the table. What if Aegis' aura were concentrated so you picked a champion to bond with and the aura only affected them? Do I bond my adc to make them more burst resistant? Or do I (as leona or another engage support) bond my tank, so they can focus on hp & armor items? Don't have much faith that this direction would work out, but it's food for thought.
: Difference: Sometimes you want the effect of the trinket without the cost of the lvl 9 one. Is it really that hard to just upgrade it? :P
> [{quoted}](name=swigginty swooty,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=aplw5UzM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-10T15:00:45.419+0000) > > Difference: Sometimes you want the effect of the trinket without the cost of the lvl 9 one. > > Is it really that hard to just upgrade it? :P I made this post when I didn't realize that the two sweepers were intended to be side-grades, not a straight-up upgrade. Therefore I was confused why you could still buy the basic sweeper when the 'advanced' one was available.
: Its hilarius but AP Master Yi still lives, at least in this preseason patch. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}}
> [{quoted}](name=Aether Liger,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=MZ5EmrhJ,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-08T18:18:13.588+0000) > > Its hilarius but AP Master Yi still lives, at least in this preseason patch. > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}} Runes/masteries/build?
: I know I can't, but the fact that this is NOT ranked and a normal game + pbe, that at least they'd have the audacity to keep their toxicity to themselves and not cause unwarranted stress upon others. I should've just left without saying a word to him... He's probably a miserable troll that's just suffering through life. Thanks though. I block only the worst of the worst toxic players... hopefully I'll never have to see any of those players again
> [{quoted}](name=SymphonyX2112,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=FGanpAqu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T17:26:34.874+0000) > > I know I can't, but the fact that this is NOT ranked and a normal game + pbe, that at least they'd have the audacity to keep their toxicity to themselves and not cause unwarranted stress upon others. I should've just left without saying a word to him... He's probably a miserable troll that's just suffering through life. Thanks though. I block only the worst of the worst toxic players... hopefully I'll never have to see any of those players again Look at the bright side: when you report and they are banned, it's much harder for them to simply get a new PBE account.
Rioter Comments
: It might work better on live where it doesn't always crashes, but yeah, sometimes my game crashes right after the skin selection It stops working and I have to quickly close and open the pbe to get back into the game at time.
> [{quoted}](name=ToxicBlitzX3,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=nBjyeExA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-06T19:01:58.680+0000) > > It might work better on live where it doesn't always crashes, but yeah, sometimes my game crashes right after the skin selection > It stops working and I have to quickly close and open the pbe to get back into the game at time. I hope :)
: Honestly, the type of crashes you described are the only successful lobbies I've had since the new draft mode released. I've had maybe 2 or 3 lobbies where there were no issues at all but let's face it, it's pbe, it's gonna be buggy. The fact that dc'ing AFTER lock in does not send the whole party back to que is the only saving grace this game mode has had over the past few days. Not to mention, you can still reconnect fine once the lobby reaches load screen, (usually)
> [{quoted}](name=Morninglord,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=nBjyeExA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-07T04:45:14.405+0000) > > Honestly, the type of crashes you described are the only successful lobbies I've had since the > new draft mode released. I've had maybe 2 or 3 lobbies where there were no issues at all > but let's face it, it's pbe, it's gonna be buggy. > > The fact that dc'ing AFTER lock in does not send the whole party back to que is the only > saving grace this game mode has had over the past few days. Not to mention, you can > still reconnect fine once the lobby reaches load screen, (usually) Weird, I've had plenty of normal lobbies (and honestly, when we get through without a dodge, it's pretty fast).
Rioter Comments
: Why are we not allowed to leave a ban open?
How often does this really happen, though? Forcing bans to be locked in (and champs) makes the process go MUCH faster and helps with last-minute switches. IMO, removing the strat of leaving a ban open is an acceptable loss for that. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Rioter Comments
: Mordekaiser Sated Q Bug
Bump. If I could get a red response on this that would be nice to see if it is intentional or not.
: Maybe it's because it's for constant/certain amount of time (think Irelia w) on hit eFfect, not per x auto attack on hit effect.
But it is both, you can only get the 3rd buffed auto if you attack 2 times before that.
: That's because his q is counted as a spell and not true AA's.
I don't think that is how it is supposed to be tho, in the description it just says his next 3 attacks, and the 2 before the last deal the autoattack damage as well as magic damage. This is why it is a bug.
Rioter Comments
: The only issue is that no matter how many times you report them for these things that they do, I never see any action taken upon them.
> [{quoted}](name=Vesica,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=U5dfoetT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-03T18:01:58.595+0000) > > The only issue is that no matter how many times you report them for these things that they do, I never see any action taken upon them. I got a message today that someone was punished based on my reports. As they roll this feature out, it'll hopefully feel less in vain.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Spike2G,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Erwpgqw7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-02T13:28:30.145+0000) > > The items is made for champion like Yi , Shyvana ecc... this is just a repeat of the hybrid itemization fiasco in another form. Those champions will be nerfed into a garbage state because of the presence of devourer, and they will be forced to build it in order to bring themselves back up to par with everyone else, or devourer will be nerfed into a garbage state so that nobody builds it. Its not good design to have an item that specifically targets a small select group of champions because if the item is powerful it mandates picking that item on those champions, which means power has to be stripped away from the champions in question. We already have enough of this through Ad and Ap itemization-- and champions are balanced according to that. We have a wide variety of different Ad and Ap items. Trying to throw a "whole nother thing" on top of that like hybrid itemization or on-hit itemization ala sated devourer is just going to do one of 3 things: 1. End up with nerfs to those champions and shoehorning them into building that item no matter what (forcing them to jungle) 2. End up with nerfs to the sated devourer, causing it to be garbage 3. End up with creating just as much support for on-hits as a system as there is for Ap and Ad as systems-- in other words increasing the complexity of the game drastically for very little actual payoff.
> [{quoted}](name=Critkeeper,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Erwpgqw7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-02T21:01:39.307+0000) > > this is just a repeat of the hybrid itemization fiasco in another form. Those champions will be nerfed into a garbage state because of the presence of devourer, and they will be forced to build it in order to bring themselves back up to par with everyone else, or devourer will be nerfed into a garbage state so that nobody builds it. > > Its not good design to have an item that specifically targets a small select group of champions because if the item is powerful it mandates picking that item on those champions, which means power has to be stripped away from the champions in question. We already have enough of this through Ad and Ap itemization-- and champions are balanced according to that. We have a wide variety of different Ad and Ap items. So, whether or not all this is true, it all already exists on the live Devourer item. All Sated is doing is fixing a problem with live devourer, infinite scaling. Infinite scaling means that you have to make each stack really weak so the item isn't hella OP on powerfarmers. Infinite scaling means as a jungler there's always an incentive to back off of fights and objectives so you can just keep farming up devourer. Putting a cap on the stacks means there's finally a point when you can say, "Okay, time to focus on winning the game, now." Making the item transform when you hit the cap makes hitting that cap actually feel rewarding. It changes very little about how devourer acts as an item that synnergizes really well with on-hit builds.
: Afkers in ranked
Some people are asshats, wherever you go. The best thing you can do atm is report them so they lose their pbe access.
Rioter Comments
: I've generally noted that the mere *existence* of a high % bonus penetration item is what causes people to avoid MR - due to the fact that, it is entirely pointless to spend 4 or 5k gold negating the effects of the opponent if you leave yourself such a massive weakness in a quick turnaround case. It's not a matter of if the item is good or balanced or not - it's just that - the presence of such a strong negator means that the value of MR either has to be extremely cheap (which has other terrible side effects - such as negating magic as a damage source for non pen using classes.) (You may also want to think about the number of AP "bruiser/potential bruisers" in the game with your Void Staff implementation - who rely primarily on base magic damage - See also: Elise, LIssandra, Evelynn). > At the same time, with Abyssal being reworked into an AP bruiser item, it feels like AP Assassins, who arguably aren't in the best shape right now, in the Tank Meta, are losing out on itemization. Firstly, it kind of assumes they need help to begin with. Secondly, super specific narrow items tend to hut the champions they are designed for more than helping them. The more focused items become towards synergizing towards a specific class - the more that classes inherent strengths get weakened by the fact that the item exists. An excellent case study of this is hybrid items. Once you've made a hybrid item that is super focused on empowering hybrid classes - what you've done is created a single item spike for that class. However, once you've created that single item spike - they are completely domineering - thus, you lower their ratios until that single item spike is balanced. The end result of this is that every other item is comparatively poorer on them. In this case - by creating a focused MPen Item that appeals specifically to AP Assassins and no one else - the most likely result is that the base damage of all AP Assassins would go down - and they would have a seriously hard time getting out of lane - because the assumption is that, once they do get out of lane - they will automatically do true damage to squishies. However, if AP Assassin base damages are low - almost every form of CDR/Mana item early on them is really really bad as they'll be forced to pick up as much AP as possible to compensate for the loss of bases. (See Also: Vlad is nerfed because Spell Vamp exists and Spell Vamp is preety much only good for him.) Note that this problem is mostly created by creating narrow items that serve to optimize something, like DPS. Things that fill gaps in a character's kit doesn't usually struggle with this particular burden (Ex: Zhonya's on Morgana actually allows her to buy other AP Items as it compensates for her kit pattern) - but this has other issues like... not being able to control a set of strengths and weaknesses on a champion. It's a fascinating problem space usually when combined with balance concerns.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=002f000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-20T19:07:12.699+0000) > > I've generally noted that the mere *existence* of a high % bonus penetration item is what causes people to avoid MR - due to the fact that, it is entirely pointless to spend 4 or 5k gold negating the effects of the opponent if you leave yourself such a massive weakness in a quick turnaround case. > > It's not a matter of if the item is good or balanced or not - it's just that - the presence of such a strong negator means that the value of MR either has to be extremely cheap (which has other terrible side effects - such as negating magic as a damage source for non pen using classes.) > > (You may also want to think about the number of AP "bruiser/potential bruisers" in the game with your Void Staff implementation - who rely primarily on base magic damage - See also: Elise, LIssandra, Evelynn). > > Firstly, it kind of assumes they need help to begin with. > > Secondly, super specific narrow items tend to hut the champions they are designed for more than helping them. > > The more focused items become towards synergizing towards a specific class - the more that classes inherent strengths get weakened by the fact that the item exists. > > An excellent case study of this is hybrid items. Once you've made a hybrid item that is super focused on empowering hybrid classes - what you've done is created a single item spike for that class. However, once you've created that single item spike - they are completely domineering - thus, you lower their ratios until that single item spike is balanced. > > The end result of this is that every other item is comparatively poorer on them. > > In this case - by creating a focused MPen Item that appeals specifically to AP Assassins and no one else - the most likely result is that the base damage of all AP Assassins would go down - and they would have a seriously hard time getting out of lane - because the assumption is that, once they do get out of lane - they will automatically do true damage to squishies. > > However, if AP Assassin base damages are low - almost every form of CDR/Mana item early on them is really really bad as they'll be forced to pick up as much AP as possible to compensate for the loss of bases. > > (See Also: Vlad is nerfed because Spell Vamp exists and Spell Vamp is preety much only good for him.) > > Note that this problem is mostly created by creating narrow items that serve to optimize something, like DPS. > > Things that fill gaps in a character's kit doesn't usually struggle with this particular burden (Ex: Zhonya's on Morgana actually allows her to buy other AP Items as it compensates for her kit pattern) - but this has other issues like... not being able to control a set of strengths and weaknesses on a champion. It's a fascinating problem space usually when combined with balance concerns. I'm too tired atm to give a response that does this justice, so consider this a placeholder while I mull things over :)
: BugSplat
Wow that's a new high! I just made it to 98% before it bugsplated me.
: Loadingscreen-BUGSPLAT is back
IDK Why this is happening I keep getting to about 80% then bam program closes and a bugsplat message comes up
: Regarding the concern of mana users' access to spell vamp: How do you feel about your itemization strength/options for manaless casters? It seems these champions' kits are designed around their fact that they're manaless (less reliable CC than mana users, less reliable poke, less range, etc), with the implied upside being that they don't have to spend gold on mana. However, with new RoA offering 100 more HP than Rylai's and just as much AP for 300 gold cheaper, while also solving most champs' mana problems, where are manaless champions to look to bear out the itemization advantage to offset their other disadvantages? I think spell vamp's supposed to have been that stat, but even then you don't see Kennen build it, and you could argue Katarina builds it simply to get at the rest of gunblade's stats/active. Some manaless CDR options for mages would be really awesome too, as currently Morello/Athene's just dominates everything else. Not only would it help manaless casters, but it would also help the RoA/Seraph's champs. Build Diversity!
> [{quoted}](name=Mandang0,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=004a000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-19T18:52:09.710+0000) > > Regarding the concern of mana users' access to spell vamp: How do you feel about your itemization strength/options for manaless casters? > > It seems these champions' kits are designed around their fact that they're manaless (less reliable CC than mana users, less reliable poke, less range, etc), with the implied upside being that they don't have to spend gold on mana. However, with new RoA offering 100 more HP than Rylai's and just as much AP for 300 gold cheaper, while also solving most champs' mana problems, where are manaless champions to look to bear out the itemization advantage to offset their other disadvantages? I think spell vamp's supposed to have been that stat, but even then you don't see Kennen build it, and you could argue Katarina builds it simply to get at the rest of gunblade's stats/active. > > Some manaless CDR options for mages would be really awesome too, as currently Morello/Athene's just dominates everything else. Not only would it help manaless casters, but it would also help the RoA/Seraph's champs. Build Diversity! Athenes is already great with Roa/Seraph builders, though, and any AP/cdr item would buff the hell outta manaless champs. \>Cdr \>More mana regen from your mana -> spam forever, especially on champs like AP kog, who really don't run oom in fights even spamming ult, because of the 33% mana refund on assist/kill. \>MR synnergizes with RoA's hp
: I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that AP/CDR without Mana or Mana Restoration is the actual item slot you're looking for right? It's actually an item that's kind of hard to make in the current environment - as CDR tends to be the best damage scalar for certain mages in lane. However, it's definitely a hole that needs to be made - primarily to ensure the AAA/RoA users can itemize into CDR at a certain point without oversaturating with Mana. That said - not the goal of this pass.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=0051000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-19T04:45:07.970+0000) > > I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that AP/CDR without Mana or Mana Restoration is the actual item slot you're looking for right? > > It's actually an item that's kind of hard to make in the current environment - as CDR tends to be the best damage scalar for certain mages in lane. However, it's definitely a hole that needs to be made - primarily to ensure the AAA/RoA users can itemize into CDR at a certain point without oversaturating with Mana. > > That said - not the goal of this pass. Yeah, and there's also the pitfall of unintentionally buffing the hell out of manaless champs, so now I can run only 15% scaling cdr on Kat instead of 25%.
: I can totally understand your frustration here - 3 component items are hardly ideal. However, there's a few reasons why this is fairly different from that case: 1. Recurve Bow became an on-hit item - and became the default root item for on-hits. While this is cleanup - it's one that serves the purpose of establishing a consistent base for a set of items. 2. Attack Speed is a relatively narrow statistic that builds into a few items - it's also a very focused statistic that doesn't really work well alone. Hence the merging allows us to add other functions that do function well with Attack Speed while you are sitting on it in the interim. By contrast - Ability Power is a fairly broad statistic that is widely applicable because of the skills on your kit. That said, I'd also like to go into this a little more about why we make inconsistent decisions at times: You can think of it like this: Certain decisions are designed to make room. Cleaning up - typically involves removing overly complex elements that aren't doing its job to make room for more complexity. However, the point of clean up is to make room for more things that take up complexity. One earns you space to do work. One consumes the space for, hopefully, a better purpose than the original room was taking up. Overall, it's a recognition that you only have so much stuff to work with. Does this mean that every project that doesn't make room is pointless or inconsistent? The point of making room and cleaning things up is to consume it for gains. In this case, in particular - The experiment is to introduce a wider array of possible build steps at the 1200 G limit (Codex/Wand/Wisp + Book) vs. NLR. In the long run - we will probably clean this up as well to make room for more complexity into a more elegant state - but for now with this light pass - we're going to spend a little bit of the room we made to play around with seeing if we can get gains in making an interesting set of items to buy at this price point.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=004f0000,timestamp=2015-06-19T01:00:21.607+0000) > > I can totally understand your frustration here - 3 component items are hardly ideal. > > However, there's a few reasons why this is fairly different from that case: > > 1. Recurve Bow became an on-hit item - and became the default root item for on-hits. While this is cleanup - it's one that serves the purpose of establishing a consistent base for a set of items. > > 2. Attack Speed is a relatively narrow statistic that builds into a few items - it's also a very focused statistic that doesn't really work well alone. Hence the merging allows us to add other functions that do function well with Attack Speed while you are sitting on it in the interim. > > By contrast - Ability Power is a fairly broad statistic that is widely applicable because of the skills on your kit. > > That said, I'd also like to go into this a little more about why we make inconsistent decisions at times: > > You can think of it like this: Certain decisions are designed to make room. Cleaning up - typically involves removing overly complex elements that aren't doing its job to make room for more complexity. > > However, the point of clean up is to make room for more things that take up complexity. One earns you space to do work. One consumes the space for, hopefully, a better purpose than the original room was taking up. Overall, it's a recognition that you only have so much stuff to work with. > > Does this mean that every project that doesn't make room is pointless or inconsistent? The point of making room and cleaning things up is to consume it for gains. > > In this case, in particular - The experiment is to introduce a wider array of possible build steps at the 1200 G limit (Codex/Wand/Wisp + Book) vs. NLR. In the long run - we will probably clean this up as well to make room for more complexity into a more elegant state - but for now with this light pass - we're going to spend a little bit of the room we made to play around with seeing if we can get gains in making an interesting set of items to buy at this price point. This was a great response. Something I'd love to see Featured on the Boards home page, or heck, even a dev blog. It's an element of Riot's design principles that I haven't really seen before, and would love to see more of.
: Sort of. The main issue with Void Staff is that 35% Total Pen is effectively a % damage amp. They don't really need MR for it to be one of the best damage amplification items you can buy. If Void Staff was % Bonus Penetration instead - I'd totally agree with you on that point - except every single time I test Void Staff as dedicated % Bonus MR destroyer - No one bought MR and simply stacked Health. There's something deeper there that a light pass like this won't actually do.
So, let's talk about pen. #Void Staff {{item:3135}} > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=002f0000,timestamp=2015-06-18T06:18:58.962+0000) > > If Void Staff was % Bonus Penetration instead - I'd totally agree with you on that point - except every single time I test Void Staff as dedicated % Bonus MR destroyer - No one bought MR and simply stacked Health. There's something deeper there that a light pass like this won't actually do. The problem with % *Bonus* MR shred, is that in order to be meaningful it needs to shred a *lot* of MR. Since void is a cheap item, this means tanks and bruisers think like this: "it isn't work it to invest in MR, since 5 min later they'll have a void and my MR will be null and void" (sorrynotsorry). Plus, void might still have been core on mages anyway. When a % bonus resist item is core on a damage dealers, *of course* tanks and bruisers are going to choose to stack HP. So either we can't do the bonus shred, or void can't be a cheap item. Since the "this isn't possible" route isn't very interesting, let's talk about the second half of that sentence - and try to figure out how to make Void an expensive/awkward item that isn't a core purchase. - **Void can't be a high AP item.** If it is, then it's useful purely for the AP, and it's still core. - Since DFG's removal, we've been missing good small-cdr items. - People, and you, have expressed concerns about Luden's role -- these patch changes are to try to give it a more distinct identity from DC. So, what if we put some cdr on Luden's and gave Void its MS, along with something like 50-60% Bonus MR pen, 30-50 AP, and/or a cool unique, and made it cost ~3k? The objective here being that void is both not worth it to build unless the enemy is stacking MR, and *hard* to build if you're not already planning for it -> give it an awkward build path, like Wand + Wisp + 1.4k, or Wand + Tome + Tome + 1.2k. Alternatively, another option is to keep it cheap but awkward. Something like Wisp + 1.5k = 40 AP + 10% MS + 50% Bonus MR Pen. The other reason void is a core purchase is that Abyssal and Liandries don't really cut it as far as multiplicative scaling goes. They just don't give enough AP (and 0 cdr) to be worth it on high damage mages, who might be forced to hit tanks and bruisers (as opposed to assassins, who always go for squishies). Void staff might be less core if there were an alternative that helped in a different scenario.... so let's talk about a different item: #Liandry's Torment / Haunting Guise Guise is in a weird place. It gives flat mpen but doesn't have the burn effect, so the champs that synnergize well with it aren't necessarily the same ones that synnergize well with Liandry's. It leaves me feeling weird when I want to get a Liandry's so I can shred tanks, and it feels like I'm just sitting on Guise until I can get Liandries. Or where I buy a guise to snowball on my assassin, and don't really feel like upgrading it. > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=002d0000,timestamp=2015-06-18T06:22:44.342+0000) > > Liandry's Torment is specifically designed to punish Health Stacking in the absence of a lot of MR. Hence the odd combination of Flat Penetration + Health Shred. Basically, if you're up against someone who rushed Cinderhulk into Righteous Glory for example - and still has base MR - that's the target Liandry's is designed to hose. That's a niche that's important to keep around. At the same time, with Abyssal being reworked into an AP bruiser item, it feels like AP Assassins, who arguably aren't in the best shape right now, in the Tank Meta, are losing out on itemization. So, what if we added a new item to take the void left by the reworks of the staff and scepter, and changed around some build paths? {{item:1052}} + {{item:1052}} +Combine Cost = {{item:3136}}. 40 AP, UNIQUE +15 mpen. It's an AP brut, minus the cdr. {{item:3136}} + {{item:1028}} + Combine = {{item:3151}} Pretty much like live. {{item:3136}} + {{item:1026}} + Combine = 80AP, +30 mpen. An AP Youmuu. It could even have an active that gives you a mini Ryze passive for a couple seconds, if that could be healthy. So at the end, we have Void if they're stacking MR, Liandry's if they're stacking HP, and the new Item if they're squishy.
: On Zigg's - I agree that Q becomes an incredible chasing/pick tool for him. The question is what is Ziggs willing to give up in that slot to get that power - as he's going to be replacing either Zhonya's (Defense) or Luden's (More AoE Damage) in order to get it. I think that's a fair tradeoff to make. Xerath - This is the one that I'm not quite sure about. The tradeoff between Catch and some of the other AP items is actually the interesting bit here - unsure how suffocating it'll be. Kog'Maw - Let me know how that goes - because after the Mana changes to Kog'Maw's ult - it feels like that build requires a ton more work. Rylais will make that build great - but solving that Mana Problem might prove to be a challenge. Or it's overpowered - unsure. We'll see. Rumble - Spells that are both Area of Effects and Damage over Time effects (Striking repeatedly) use the DoT value instead of the AoE value. The AoE value only applies to instant one-shot AoE effects. Karthus - If this case is altogether too strong - I think I can tweak the duration of the slow down to 0.75. There's a ton of levers to tweak on this, I think - but the general idea is just to stop penalizing instant AoE spells so much.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=002b0000,timestamp=2015-06-18T05:23:34.406+0000) > > Kog'Maw - Let me know how that goes - because after the Mana changes to Kog'Maw's ult - it feels like that build requires a ton more work. Rylais will make that build great - but solving that Mana Problem might prove to be a challenge. > > Or it's overpowered - unsure. We'll see. As a late S4 and S5 AP kog player, here's my best guess as to what will happen with him: [{{item:3027}} or {{item:3040}}] {{item:3020}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3116}} two of [{{item:3285}} or {{item:3151}} or {{item:3174}}] This build (not in this order) is already strong on live, and with the rylai changes, turn an ult into a death sentence. Here's to hoping that tuning the duration can keep the slow so it doesn't feel like bs to play against. --- As an aside, I'm also happy about the buff to my full artillery full cheeze build, which is hilariously strong lategame, IF (and that's a big if) you can make it through laning phase: {{item:3027}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3135}} [{{item:3020}} or {{item:3285}} or {{item:3151}} ] 100 mana regen / second with blue, baron, and near-empty mana, the dream.
: It's both an AoE and a DoT effect - so it will use the 20% Slow, once per second.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=q2694bqE,comment-id=00290000,timestamp=2015-06-18T04:54:36.824+0000) > > It's both an AoE and a DoT effect - so it will use the 20% Slow, once per second. How does that work with tenacity? If I buy mercs, will it slow me for .65 seconds, then I move at a normal speed for .35 seconds, then slow, etc?
: This happens with similar abilities such as Diana and Akali's Rs, and will do this on Summoner Spell Flash as well. It probably has something to do with the timing; it often happens so fast that it's hard to determine who casted which ability first. I'll use Diana as an example since I've done this several times before. If I'm chasing a carry that's low, I cast Q to start up my combo then press R; if the target uses Flash or a blink ability, I will still land on them because I'm already in flight provided that I don't get CC'd. Diana and Akali might be a bit of an extended example because the range of their ults is massively different than that of Ekko's dash, however I think the same principle would apply.
> [{quoted}](name=PseudoNymph,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=fE6rXL6G,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-04T01:49:09.887+0000) > > This happens with similar abilities such as Diana and Akali's Rs, and will do this on Summoner Spell Flash as well. > It probably has something to do with the timing; it often happens so fast that it's hard to determine who casted which ability first. > I'll use Diana as an example since I've done this several times before. > If I'm chasing a carry that's low, I cast Q to start up my combo then press R; if the target uses Flash or a blink ability, I will still land on them because I'm already in flight provided that I don't get CC'd. > Diana and Akali might be a bit of an extended example because the range of their ults is massively different than that of Ekko's dash, however I think the same principle would apply. They're dashes, though, while Ekko's is a blink. With a dash, it could feasibly make sense that: - I start dashing (to you). - You blink away or use a dash that's faster than mine. - I continue dashing all the way to you, because the point is that I'm dashing to you. With a blink, that middle bullet point just isn't possible. It's like getting knocked up by a blitz E after you flash. Either you shouldn't get knocked up, or you shouldn't be able to flash. This is the same bug -- melee AAs shouldn't follow you through a blink.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: @ricklessabandon Karma Mantra E interaction with damage and her passive.
Honestly, that was already a little out of line anyway, and made R-E her best teamfighting spell by far. Options: - R-E, then W and Q. - R-W, then E and Q. - R-Q, then W and E. On PBE, in all of these situations, you get cooldowns from: - However many people you hit with Q - Maybe slightly more with ult (bigger aoe) - You get the chance to hit them twice, but if they're not cc'd and are paying attention, they won't be hit by that anyway. - 4 ticks of W - Same with ult. - Nothing for shield - Same with ult I think it's just more *consistent* now, which allows us to buff Karma's passive, which I'm really looking forward to.
: I don't have as many games with her as you do, but I generally agree with your analysis. However, one thing I have always thought was interesting is that Renewal (r.W) did more damage total than Soulflare, without the second proc. Essentially: AoE nukes? R-Q 1v1 fight? R-W Strengthen Team fight/ Escape? R-E I am perfectly fine with an increased reliance on Soulflare for tons of damage, that encourages good tactical plays. Removing the damage from Defiance in exchange for a better shield also works fine in my book. However, if that is the design they want to go with, I think it would want to try completely removing the damage from Focused Resolve. If it is to be a utility ability, then it would be interesting to be able to use it under a turret, especially now that she has only one significant damage ability.
> [{quoted}](name=Nixtarma,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=llt8zis3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-17T07:40:09.154+0000) > > I don't have as many games with her as you do, but I generally agree with your analysis. > However, one thing I have always thought was interesting is that Renewal (r.W) did more damage total than Soulflare, without the second proc. Essentially: > AoE nukes? R-Q > 1v1 fight? R-W > Strengthen Team fight/ Escape? R-E > > I am perfectly fine with an increased reliance on Soulflare for tons of damage, that encourages good tactical plays. Removing the damage from Defiance in exchange for a better shield also works fine in my book. > > However, if that is the design they want to go with, I think it would want to try completely removing the damage from Focused Resolve. If it is to be a utility ability, then it would be interesting to be able to use it under a turret, especially now that she has only one significant damage ability. I agree that would be interesting, but I think without a significant buff to her q's damage (which can't happen on the magnitude that would be needed because her poke and waveclear would be absolutely broken), Karma would deal far too little damage to be viable in solo lanes.
: Not only is it against the ToS, but when you were selected for the PBE for testing, they were selecting based on YOUR characteristics or behaviors and such, not your friend's behavior or game play style. They wanted YOU to test and they want YOUR results/observations. You kinda feeling what I mean here?
> [{quoted}](name=KAGamerKyle,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=sxEe8kEV,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-05-16T21:55:12.713+0000) > > Not only is it against the ToS See [my reply ](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/sxEe8kEV-suggesting-a-possible-system-to-prevent-multiple-people-on-one-users-pbe-account?comment=000100000000)to ADeceptivePotato. >but when you were selected for the PBE for testing, they were selecting based on YOUR characteristics or behaviors and such, not your friend's behavior or game play style. They wanted YOU to test and they want YOUR results/observations. You kinda feeling what I mean here? I do see your point. I'm not sure that letting a friend use my account takes much away from that, though. If my friend isn't: - Giving feedback - Being toxic or otherwise ruining other players' experiences - Preventing me from testing and giving feedback ..then I don't see how account sharing is harmful.
: the downside of sharing accounts is its against the ToS and a bannable offense.
Just because it is a rule, does not necessarily make it just. Therefore, it is not beyond scrutiny. "That's a law, you shouldn't question it." isn't a very healthy mindset, IMO. Relevant: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/
Rioter Comments
: Suggesting a possible system to prevent multiple people on one user's PBE account.
What's the downside to account sharing on the PBE, though? Do people play ranked seriously on PBE? I feel like as long as the people your friend is giving his account to are using it responsibly (ie, he's not a silver giving his account to a diamond who's going on PBE just to pubstomp people), there's not really a problem with acct sharing in the same was as on live (where MMR is a bigger deal). tl;dr, I think it's more about WHO he's sharing with and WHAT they're doing than simply the fact that he's sharing.
: If it is then my bad (new to the forums). I edited my comment just in case.
: I thought name blaming is forbidden on the forums?
: That's pretty cool, and honestly something I hadn't considered, though going up by 1 charge per rank would mean at least 5 max charges at max rank, and increasing on some ranks and not other may feel odd.
I agree having 5 charges at max rank would be pretty crazy, unless the cooldown stayed *super* long. However, I think you could work in charges increasing on every other rank. It's not unprecedented, either. (Heimer turrets)

Hyrum Graff

Level 30 (PBE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion