: [Discussion] Is this new Juggernaut rework suitable for Garen, Darius and Mordekaiser ?
The identity of each champ has really been focused, which is great. I don't have strong opinions about the actual balance changes, but all 4 champs are much more fun and unique than they used to be. I like that the Villain mechanic is uncontrollable - it would make no sense thematically if it was, and it feels wonderful to execute the villain right now. Darius has this weird identity as a methodical berserker - he has one real goal in a teamfight, which is to get 5 stacks on one person and proceed to steamroll everyone who gets close. Skarner is a zone-control monster. Morde fills a niche that nobody else really fits in the current meta as a hybrid-damage adc replacement. I'm not looking for "issues" to be fixed. Everyone has issues. It's what makes playing against them fun. Figuring out how to play around the weaknesses and strengths of your character (and your opponents') is pretty much League of Legends at an individual level.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hiccup251,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T23:11:54.162+0000) > > You're talking as if there's no way to take advantage of the buffs he's received. While it's true his E can't crit anymore, this simply means you probably shouldn't itemize for crit anymore. Other flat damage items will be worth much more on him than they used to be due to the enormous AD ratio buff on E. So, you're confusing me: According to those patch notes above, the AD ratio on his E is the same at max rank as it was and only very marginally higher on lower ranks. "(Buff) Total Attack Damage Ratio per tick 0.35/0.40/0.45/0.50/0.55 >>> 0.47/0.49/0.51/0.53/0.55" .55 = .55 Am I reading that incorrectly? If I am, then I maintain I'd rather have the crits on hit than a few extra ticks (which serve the same purpose as a tick that does double damage).
The key is that E deals more individual ticks than it did before: > (Added) Judgment’s spin speed permanently increases at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16, resulting in a total of 5/6/7/8/9/10 maximum ticks of damage per cast Since the ratio remains the same at higher levels, this means you're getting the ratio up to 10 times instead of 6; 5.5 instead of 3.3. The higher ratio at early levels compensates for the loss of a tick pre-level 4.
: @RiotRepertoir: Don't you think some of these changes and the intentions behind them are contrary to how many Garen players actually play and itemize the champion? Specifically, it seems like the ideas behind the changes are to go hand-in-hand with some of the new items, but those items are entirely unattractive for how many Garen players (including the top ranked Garen players across regions) itemize him. To highlight my point, and for quick reference, I throw a link up to MarineRevenge's ever popular Garen guide on Solomid: http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/43750-garen-build-guide-fighter-by-marinerevenge. Marine has been a bit less active lately but is often the top ranked Garen in NA. Notice a max of one tanky item and all damage and crit. You'll see similar builds, barring a bad game, with other top ranked players across regions. That is, many players build Garen with one or two (at max) tanky items and then the rest all damage. Standard core items being Black Cleaver, Youmuu's, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper. This is how I personally have had the most success with Garen and how I enjoy playing him (he's my main). - Removing crit from E removes the spike damage. More consistent, sure, but with high crit it seems better as is. - Changing the passive on W seems super cumbersome and not fun. I am definitely a player who completely veers away from farming mechanics akin to Nasus, the new Flesheater in Black Market Brawlers, Veigar, etc. It may be easier from a balance perspective, but it doesn't fit thematically and seems like a gameplay cop out to make numbers easier to balance. I am not looking forward to farming minions to get the value out of my W. Much more likely to entirely skip W altogether, especially with Tenacity removal. - Q silence reduction makes sense, as silences are CC in general are awful to be on the bad end of and being silenced while being spun over isn't cool. On board with that change. - Passive nerf makes sense. It's crazy and we all knew that was coming. Garen = Bush-Wolverine. - Ultimate: Not looking forward to a glowing sign of my opponent's head that reads "Avoid Garen at all costs." Garen isn't hard to get off you now as is and that's a major component in his low win rate. As team fights break out, seems like everyone has a way of escaping or knocking you up or back. Now they'll be all the more alert. Also, on the ultimate, was increasing his stickiness to the target considered over increasing the damage? I know the damage components are changing, but doing damage to his target hasn't really ever been the problem. Sticking with them and not having to burn flash for every late game kill definitely is. Would much rather trade in all the true damage (both on hit and ultimate) for some speed or stickiness to my target. Also, that'd tie a bit more in with the whole "perseverance" thing.
> Don't you think some of these changes and the intentions behind them are contrary to how many Garen players actually play and itemize the champion? These changes will bring about changes to Garen's core build. The fact that his old itemization/playstyle doesn't work well with the new kit seems a weak argument. Though he loses scaling with crit chance, he gains a huge buff to his AD ratio on E. Modify that crit build to use high AD items like Maw of Malmortius and Ravenous Hydra, and you ought to get similar results. I'm with you on your last argument, though. Having high damage isn't enough to kill a carry late game, especially now that he lacks tenacity. I'd trade some/all of the bonus damage to that target for a "Righteous Fervor" buff, granted on dealing physical damage to the Villain, that increases his movement towards the target. It could alternatively be more like Vayne's passive movement speed buff, but limited to the Villain. I feel that the increased ult effectiveness against the Villain is excellent thematically, but the 1% on-hit is less fitting. The ability to relentlessly chase down the Villain seems more fitting and would enhance that aspect of the character greatly.
: > [{quoted}](name=DrunkenToolShed,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-08-04T22:00:17.949+0000) > > So let me get this straight > > You nerfed his healing, his damage, his late game bulk, made him MORE kitable, gutted his laning, nerfed his silence, crit spin (no more youmuu's rush), now slows himself with his spin on champions instead of going through units, nerfed his late game hp. > > So he can have slightly higher base stats (except hp), slightly higher spin damage late game (maybe), and some EXTREMELY situational true damage? > > Garen is useless unless he gets ahead in lane. His biggest weakness is he gets kited into oblivion so he can't reach squishies. > > Good bye Garen. Riot has literally no idea what to do with you. so you might as well be removed. Yes, this is pretty upsetting. You mention "slightly higher spin damage late game (maybe)," but by removing crit it's only higher damage for tank Garen. For Garens who build Youmuu's and Infinity Edge, it's a pretty significant nerf to spin damage as well as the spike damage you can surprise people with. Also, way to put a giant flag over your target's head as if to say, "Don't forget to kite one of the most kiteable champs until he's dead or this glowy sword goes away."
You're talking as if there's no way to take advantage of the buffs he's received. While it's true his E can't crit anymore, this simply means you probably shouldn't itemize for crit anymore. Other flat damage items will be worth much more on him than they used to be due to the enormous AD ratio buff on E.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
I'll need to play a few games with him before I'm certain about these changes, but I'll fire off some first impressions. The scaling changes to his base stats, W, and E make sense when put together, and the potential for new bruiser items (especially those that grant ad/hp and don't rely on on-hit effects) could grant this new Garen one of the more flexible build paths in the game. The "Villain" mechanic is quite interesting. The mid-late game implications are clear and sound fun to me. Though Garen doesn't lose lane easily, this also provides a nice comeback mechanic for him if he dies early on. I feel that this change will give Garen a unique role to fill as you intended. I'm a little worried about the 20% decreased movespeed on E while hitting champions. It being a % decrease says to me that there's not much I can do to maintain my stickiness, even without enemy CC. I hope that you will consider changing the current % reduction to a flat reduction of similar size, such that itemization into movespeed (swiftness and alacrity over mercs and homeguards) feels more impactful. Such a change would also encourage making good use of the bonus movespeed from his Q after you land the attack. A question on the Villain mechanic - to my understanding, the villain is whoever got the last kill on the enemy team. Is there a limit to how quickly the "villain" status is transferred? I imagine it would get quite hectic trying to keep track of your target in a teamfight setting. UPDATE: Having played him, I can confidently say that he feels better to play than he did before. This doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger. A few things: W seems to store up stacks even when capped out, such that leveling it can instantly give you the additional 5 armor/MR. Not sure if this is intended. Right-clicking a champion while spinning makes you stop quite a distance away from them. I've never noticed stopping far away from the champion in the past, but this is probably just due to the attack range buff. Regardless, it would feel much better if clicking a champion had Garen move to their center, not just within range. Judgement sometimes fails to allow you to move through minions and monsters. I suspect this is related to the movement speed buff from Q, but was unable to get a 100% replication with any method. Speaking of Judgement, 10 ticks feels _amazing_. The slow when moving towards enemy champs isn't as frustrating as I anticipated, and it's possible to get ahead of them (in their path) to avoid the decrease. Ult indicator on the Villain is icing on the cake. I can't say for sure if the numbers are tuned right, but his gameplay is in a better place now. I look forward to playing him more.
: I'm curious to see what new items are coming out and how this will affect Garen. I appreciate the new passive, as that will give him a mission to shut down the enemy getting the most kills; depending on how one would play him, he would have to worry less about building AD.
I feel like the changes give him more meaningful choices in itemization. You can still go full tank, even though you no longer get free % bonus resistances, since you get non-scaling true damage to a certain target. However, you can make use of the huge AD ratio on E by taking a more bruiser-oriented path and be a threat to everyone.
: The original W used to be like how the PBE one is, but it was removed for the more favorable one that's currently on live because of how awkward it was during the game..Why reintroduce it?
While I'm not a huge fan of the "farm for limited stat bonuses" aspect, the flat resistances alter his itemization significantly. Garen's now has less incentive to build resistances, so he is more free to build for flat health and AD. Depending on how the new items play out, he could have a very interesting core build that suits his kit well.

Hiccup251

Level 30 (PBE)
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