: Okay, so, the eye opens kind of randomly and I accidentally took it and got complained about because hitting the eye does so much damage. Backing off to let the other guy get wailed on solo (who won't be able to hit the eye because he'll pivot) doesn't taste right because he's going to get absolutely wailed on even in just two hits. For these reasons he needs better intuitive mechanics. Things we can actually play around.
Noted. Could try to make Smite also taunt, to set up the positioning easier.
: I don't think that it's a good idea in it's current iteration. In every game that I've played where teammates fought the rift herald, we lost 2 towers when the other team decided to zerg while we fought the mob. They got way more global gold, as well, so there doesn't seem to be a point to this mob.
It's generally good for different types of objectives to present immediate trade-offs for one another (this happens with Dragon too; at the time when you trade Dragon for one tower early, Dragon is worth considerably less). The question here to me is, what was your team able to do with the buff? Were you not able to leverage it to gain a different type of advantage?
: Pantheon W, Jax E, and Fiora W can all block Rift Herald's attacks. I'm not sure if this is intended or oversight; im guessing oversight because Dragon/Baron bypass the blocking feature. I made a thread on the bugs forum and on reddit. no video as of yet. 100% reproducible
: Is the eye SUPPOSED to stay open for more than one attack? Because sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't.
It's supposed to stay open at low health ranges, so you can hand it off to your laner.
: Can't move? rip.
Rift Herald can move, but Morde can't get a ghost off of it (yet).
: Hey Jag I first have a general (important) question, after I will explain why I think that the RH is a good idea and why I like the way he works. **So the question is: Is there a mapwide sound when RH is damaged like Drake and Baron? Can the enemy Team hear when RH is dying? If not I’ll explain later why you should do that** First of all: I like the Idea of bringing more opportunities and choices into the gameplay. But here is why I think RH is a nice option for that: Toplane-Focus: Toplane nowadays is farming, farming, farming. If you are a lucky guy, you can use your TP to get a Kill. This was the only choice you had. Snowball Toplane: In many Ways, in my opinion, toplane was underrated. It was just farming for tankitems. With the buff there are some more options and bring some attraction in a very passive lane. So the Teamfocus is maybe not longer on the ADC or midlaner. With the change Toplane-focus will get more valuable. (It may be a good strategy to focus top, kill the champion and get RH after.) Jungler-Control: If you hear a sound, RH is a way to control the enemy jungler. You love mindgames? Just attack RH and see if he’s nearby. Light up-Toplane: There will be a change in Wards,I know. But atm. the situation is clear: While botlane is light up bright because of sightstone, toplane is often a dark hole (except when Baron is spawning). This means, that the Team needs Vision everywhere now, which is a new strategic element. 30% less DMG from ranged: First, I agree with Jag, since all of us saw Kog melting down everyone with 5AS. Okay no ADC may have 5AS at 19 mins but you see my point. Second: RH should be a Top-Lane thing. So it is less attractive to send your ADC top just to get the buff. Opening new possibilities with Swaps: Early on laneswaps weren’t a big deal in low elo matches. I think this will change for two reasons: first, one lane gets 2 Turrets and the other lanes 2 Turrets and dragon (Or just 1 Turret both). So one team had a disadvantage in taking not the dragon. This will change with RH. There is now a tradeoff between drake and RH. A possible option will now be: Swap lanes, push top in, kill the tower and go for RH with the jungler. The other team will get Drake okay, but you have 10% more dmg instead and can push way faster and maybe get the tower down, before the ally-one falls. So you won a tower. What I would change: 50g/person is not much. The first trade-off between Drake and RH is okay. But the second and third? In my opinion RH should scale with death. So he first gives 50/person, the second one 75 (or 100) and so on. With this change it will be a bigger trade-off between drake and RH. Example: you take 3 times RH = 750 global gold (wow…..) enemy team = 3 stacks Drake this trade-off is pretty bad. So most will fight around drake and RH’s impact (Botlane- or Toplanefocus) isn’t really big. If: You take 3 times RH = 1125 (scaling 25) the trade-off is bigger. And with = 1500 global gold it will be a hard choice. So if you wanna have these trade-offs, mindgames, and toplanefocus, scaling will be a good way. What do you think? ps, sorry for my bad english
Thanks for the feedback! To answer your first question, there's a team-wide callout when RHG dies (like Dragon and Baron), but not a callout just for taking damage. As for the gold suggestion, Feralpony put what we're doing here pretty nicely: Rift Herald should act as a counterweight of sorts to Dragon, in that we can tune up or down one or the other to have them act as balancing elements of each side of the map. To that end, I think stacking gold is maybe a cool suggestion to add to Dragon, actually, since we want the narrative for taking Dragon to be backloaded power that is ramping up (Dragon 5 is worth way more than Dragon 1), whereas RH is totally about the immediate cash in (not a stacking one).
: I look forward to the Shaco nerfs due to an environment change that will get nerfed itself later on anyway
When did you...what was...how could you find out our plans already?!
: This sounds like a buff Shaco will be amazing at taking thanks to his clone and already increased damage backstabbing people. Yay Shaco buffs.
The joke's on...well, on literally everyone else in League of Legends.
: Okay so a couple questions. 1: Why did you make a top lane buff this strong, so "top laners can feel like they're interacting with their team before the 15 minute mark." And then make it a two person thing? I understand wanting to utilize the entire map and the baron pit having use pre-15 is very exciting, but I feel this buff might be a bit much that early in the match, especially on early game top laners, or *junglers ganking* for that matter. 2: Okay so for junglers who get the buff, will the minion buff give them away if they are nearby? How will this effect ganks, or have you looked into it? 3: I feel like the eye passive (12% true damage) is a cool idea... but the artwork could use a bit of work. The fact it opens on the top could be confusing, and how large is the "back" of this thing going to be? Since you have to hit it in the back while the eye is open... An indicator of some sort may be needed, or you could add it to the difficulty of it... just be careful not to be unfair :) 4: 40 movespeed? Uhm.. im imagining a tier two boot yi with this buff and dying inside. 355 base + 60 (swiftness boots) + 40 (Baby baron) = 447 (soft cap) +25% from ult (111.75MS) = 509.75 MS Yi with ult (and both soft caps). Dodging all but targetted stuns. Don't get me started on dead mans plate. (+60 = 534.75 (ish) with ult (soft cap)) HALP RITO! If jinx manages to get it... Warwick. Max the E and go crazy. Udyr gotta go fast. Braum catching all dem shots. Garen gotta go fast. Reintro Nunu W. Sk-Ska-Skarnnerrrr. Reintro Trundle. Rammus. Voli... ONE WORD: Hecarim. 5: I like the move to avoid ranged attackers from taking this, but i feel this might oppress further ranged top or ranged jungle players, especially with a buff as large as it currently is. Perhaps make this not apply to ranged junglers (a passive on jungle items/smite)? IDEA! Smite removes the buff-so junglers get to pick who gets it and it promotes early smiting allowing others to steal if theres a squishy ADC trying to take it? Give it a chunk of armor still though... That is all. If I think of more I might add, and yes-I'm treating this like I would any new champion review I do, because I feel like this has a lot of work to be done still. <3 Oh yeah. The name is kinda lame tbh. Theres some good ideas from the community you should read :) And I really hope you make baron eat the baby baron. It would be an awesome animation, but I know it is for later. :D Edit: added numbers for yi about the MS/added more scary champions Edit 2: Adjusted numbers for soft caps
> [{quoted}](name=Jcwolves,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=z44jEiXG,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2015-10-29T05:04:06.349+0000) > > Okay so a couple questions. > > 1: Why did you make a top lane buff this strong, so "top laners can feel like they're interacting with their team before the 15 minute mark." And then make it a two person thing? > I understand wanting to utilize the entire map and the baron pit having use pre-15 is very exciting, but I feel this buff might be a bit much that early in the match, especially on early game top laners, or *junglers ganking* for that matter. > Not sure what you're quoting (help me out here), but the goal for Rift Herald isn't so top laners can feel like they're interacting with their team. TP already does that. It's a two person objective because if it was a solo objective, it would clearly be a reward for the jungler (or even worse, a top laner that took Smite). But the mechanics of Rift Herald and the Doom's Eve buff heavily favor bringing your top laner as one of those two dudes. > 2: Okay so for junglers who get the buff, will the minion buff give them away if they are nearby? How will this effect ganks, or have you looked into it? It will give them away, and that's okay. We want this to be a clear read to the opponents where the push is coming from. This also naturally favors giving the buff to not-the-jungler. > > 3: I feel like the eye passive (12% true damage) is a cool idea... but the artwork could use a bit of work. The fact it opens on the top could be confusing, and how large is the "back" of this thing going to be? Since you have to hit it in the back while the eye is open... An indicator of some sort may be needed, or you could add it to the difficulty of it... just be careful not to be unfair :) Good feedback. We'll keep exploring what work we can do to add clarity here. > > 4: 40 movespeed? Uhm.. im imagining a tier two boot yi with this buff and dying inside. 355 base + 60 (swiftness boots) + 40 (Baby baron) = 447 (soft cap) +25% from ult (111.75MS) = 509.75 MS Yi with ult (and both soft caps). Dodging all but targetted stuns. Don't get me started on dead mans plate. (+60 = 534.75 (ish) with ult (soft cap)) HALP RITO! If jinx manages to get it... Warwick. Max the E and go crazy. Udyr gotta go fast. Braum catching all dem shots. Garen gotta go fast. Reintro Nunu W. Sk-Ska-Skarnnerrrr. Reintro Trundle. Rammus. Voli... > ONE WORD: Hecarim. I mean, I'm mostly glad you're just theorycrafting what's exciting about it here. But it's just 40 MS; most of the effects you combined in the list there are already well past the MS caps to the point that +40 flat MS means fairly little. > > 5: I like the move to avoid ranged attackers from taking this, but i feel this might oppress further ranged top or ranged jungle players, especially with a buff as large as it currently is. Perhaps make this not apply to ranged junglers (a passive on jungle items/smite)? IDEA! Smite removes the buff-so junglers get to pick who gets it and it promotes early smiting allowing others to steal if theres a squishy ADC trying to take it? Give it a chunk of armor still though... > I see where you're going here, but it's pretty important to make mechanics clear and consistent. Having the ranged damage penalty makes it clear that ADCs aren't optimized for taking this objective (unlike Dragon or Baron, which they generally are optimized at taking). As for ranged top laners or junglers, I do feel your pain - hopefully you brought a melee partner with some damage to help you out. > And I really hope you make baron eat the baby baron. It would be an awesome animation, but I know it is for later. :D Me too!
: Is it possible to attack the herald (expecially the back of it) from outside the pit? This could give a ranged, red side toplaner a significant advantage, expecially paired with a tank jungler, that - it seems - would more than compensate the downside of ranged champs dealing less damage.
You could hit Herald from outside of the pit, but I'm not sure what benefit that would confer you since a ranged attacker never has to draw aggro.
: Hey Jag, you said the buff only drops to the killer. At the dragon and Baron we see, that mostly the jungler kills them with smite, that the enemies cant steal them. I think that will also happen with the Rift Herald that way, so the jungler has to gank for two minutes that they can use the enhanced minions. Do you want that? You also said that the herald is mutated scattle crab. Maybe you can make some interaction between the scuttler and the herald, for example that the herald only appears for the time when the scuttler is dead. Or you have to kill the scuttler a few times, then he dissapears for the whole match(or until baron spawns) and only then the herald spawns.
We made some small changes here, that will help with the buff handoff. 1) The backstab damage is now 15% of max HP (this will ALWAYS be more than Smite). 2) If the backstab proc brings Rift Herald below 15% max HP, you can do it again. This means that the power to secure this objective is firmly in the hands of a champion behind Rift Herald, and not the one with Smite.
: How wide is the character? Will Fiora be able to q through it and proc true damage? Also it looks a little unbalanced, will we be able to knock it over?
1) Pretty wide? 2) Nope, you can't ever proc Backstab if you have aggro. 3) Nope. Might be imbalanced though.
: Does the Rift Herald turn like dragon, or is it like Baron in that it is stationary and only faces one way. This could be important since the person whose tanking it might be the one who can escape over the wall, and the damage dealers can stand in the entrance and still proc the all important Backstab bonus.
: once baron is down will the mutated thing spawn for a couple minutes to replace the barons spot ( as in early game where there is no baron so its spawns there and now that baron is gone it comes after 2 min only to be eaten ) ?
Nope, Rift Herald departs permanently before 20:00.
: You said that the buff "Enhances nearby minions offensive power, same as Baron buff", so what happens if you, say, take the RH at 19:00 and take baron at 20:00. Now we have both buffs for one champ. does the minion baron buff stack or not?
So what we're actually doing now is that RH buff gives nearby minions 40% more Attack Speed. However, RH's buff is immediately overwritten by Baron buff, so they can't coexist.
: Thank you for your timely answer. Follow-up : about how hard is it to kill the Rift Herald? Am I right to suspect somewhere inbetween a buff camp and drake?
I think that's a fair assessment, although I'll say that it's more like, 2 people taking RH is comparable to 3 taking Dragon.
: I know this sounds like I don't like the change, but I do a lot. Just the look of it though doesn't feel unique or epic to me like Dragon does. It's body shape is super close to red buff's and the eye on it's back is a little silly for the mechanic it's trying to get across even though it doesn't look like that mechanic is needed. I didn't think Master Yi or Renekton in the video had attacked the eye, but I may be wrong. It looks really silly to me.
> [{quoted}](name=ArcticNightfall,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=z44jEiXG,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-10-28T22:45:37.646+0000) > > the eye on it's back is a little silly for the mechanic it's trying to get across even though it doesn't look like that mechanic is needed Can you elaborate on this? Why do you say that? Is it the look that's off? Why do you think the mechanic isn't needed?
: Why the less damage from ranged attacks? This just lowers the potential junglers and top laners people would take, and I'm kinda frightened for the ranged characters that go top because they would just die in mid.
It's mostly about making sure this objective we give to top laners isn't optimized for ADCs. Certain ranged top laners may be worse at taking RH and that's okay; some champs have different strengths and weaknesses. Ranged spells still do full damage though (so Vlad is still pretty decent here, for example).
: How many people would be needed to take RH? If he's hard hitting and doesn't take full damage from champions like kindred, vayne etc then they're gonna struggle taking him. Also, would kindreds passive be marked on Him?
It's hard to solo, and much easier to duo, since you need one person to proc the Eye Backstab every 3 seconds. Bringing more than 2 doesn't add a ton since the backstab does so much work, so you can optimize taking it around just bringing a tanky dude and one friend (jungle + top laner is a good combo). No Kindred passives here.
: How long does the buff last? Also hurray for top lane being relevant without TP! Are there also changes planned to TP to support top lane being more centered on itself?
2 minutes. TP cooldown is also going up in preseason.
: What is your opinion to having it award less or no buff if killed by a ranged attack, to prevent an ADC from teleporting up to kill it and gain even further pushing power?
Wouldn't ever make it that restrictive, but it is noticeably less efficient to try to take it with an ADC (especially relative to Dragon).
: How many stacks does it give for devourer?
You get 2. It's a mutated Scuttle Crab!
: Can you tell me the rift herald's stats HP/DAMAGE/Resistances please? I need to know how early I can solo this if I really feel like it. {{champion:2}}
It's going to be very hard to solo. You'd have to be way ahead. The Eye Backstab makes it really easy to duo though.
: He despawns at 19:55 and baron spawns at that time so hopefully they will make something.
: Does the buff transfer to another player when killed (like red/blue buff) or will it just disappear like Baron's?
: * 10% increase to all non-true damage at 40 MS What does this mean?
It means nonsense. I fixed the post, thanks.
  Rioter Comments
: now my question is, will the bonus crit be a flat +50% crit [CRT% + 50%] or +50% of current crit [CRT % + (CRT% x 50%)]
It's the former (additive Critical Strike Chance).
: Hmm. Obviously, I haven't tested this out in-game or anything, at this point, but I'm really not liking the theme of the new Herald. * Old Zeke's Herald was very unique and had a specific purpose for being bought that depended on your team's composition. New Zeke's doesn't seem all that situational. It's either going to be strong enough for every AP Support to get, regardless of team comp or matchup, or it's going to be too weak/expensive to bother picking up. * New Zeke's seems like yet another AP/Mana/CDR item that Supports will buy and misuse instead of choosing utility items that provide reliable benefits. We have enough Mejai's Jannas, already. We don't need Zeke's-Mejai's Jannas, as well. I don't think we should be encouraging Supports to build high-AP items to utilize the pseudo-Deathcap effect of the new Zeke's. Not enough Supports buy the already-existing and underrated utility items like Twin Shadows, Banner of Command, Mikeal's, etc. * Why wasn't this just introduced as a new item? It seems really weird to shift an item's purpose so drastically. Deathfire Grasp got deleted and Luden's was a new thing, even though those two had much more in common than Old Zeke's and New Zeke's. I would actually rather you just remove Zeke's Herald if you don't want any trace of the old item in the game, rather than having a completely different item keep its name and icon. * I liked being able to buy Zeke's Herald on the beefier Supports that don't stack AP items, like Thresh, Leona, Braum, Alistar, etc. They're more likely to survive a long time in a fight and use the effect (whether it's a Life Steal Aura or a Superpowered Ally Bind) to its full potential. They get pretty much nothing out of this new version. There are better CDR items, better Armor Items, better utility items. Squishy AP Supports are more likely to die easily, so the new effect seems a bit mismatched, to me. * If I'm interpreting the item description properly – The Support activates the item to choose an ally, like a Kalista bind, right? Then once fully stacked, the effect will automatically start when either of you deal damage to anything? I think it would be much better if the Support could choose when to activate the effect, rather than have it go off right before a big fight because your ADC wanted to farm Raptors or poke some enemies with long-range spells. Anyway, maybe I'll change my mind after I see the thing in action. Initially, though, I'm not very excited about it. I'm glad to see you guys taking a look at some of the forgotten Support items, even if this particular change doesn't seem right to me.
The "buy this every game" concern has been on our mind a lot. Our goal for Zeke's is that the choices behind buying this item are very dependent on the team you have in each game. Since the nature of utilizing the proc is a dynamic and cooperative effort, I think there are too many variables at play to be able to evaluate if it's a statistically dominant purchase for every context. It's something I'd like to see when people get on PBE and play around with the item. As for the statline, it looked like it was really hard for the play pattern behind optimizing the use of the proc to fit the beefier melee support guys, so we committed to making the item feel great on supports that could build AP. Hopefully this is the Glacial Shroud upgrade that the Sonas and Namis of the world have always wanted. If you try the item out and feel confident that you could make it work on the tanky supports like Alistar or Leona, I'd be interested to hear it.
: The problem with old Zeke's is that if it's anywhere near cost efficient on one champion, it becomes borderline broken when there's 3 or 4 people who can utilize it to full extent. That's why the item had to be held back by the awful build path. We could maybe have a lifesteal aura, but it's not really something supports like to go for, and solo laners in AD heavy teams have the Black Cleaver.
> [{quoted}](name=Pyroblasty,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=lEXEsgWL,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-06-29T22:26:03.492+0000) > > The problem with old Zeke's is that if it's anywhere near cost efficient on one champion, it becomes borderline broken when there's 3 or 4 people who can utilize it to full extent. That's why the item had to be held back by the awful build path. > > We could maybe have a lifesteal aura, but it's not really something supports like to go for, and solo laners in AD heavy teams have the Black Cleaver. That is largely the reasoning behind why we're changing Zeke's. It's very tough to put the item in a satisfying place that is useful in its niche, without also reaching insane levels of cost efficiency on multiple people. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that an impactful Lifesteal Aura item should be in the shop; that said, we don't think live Zeke's is the correct incarnation of it.
  Rioter Comments
: Didn't Fiddle actually never ever upgraded his jungle item anyway and went for other items like Zhonya's, Luden's and Rabadon's first?
Fiddlesticks was the champion that most stuck out to us as someone who may be worse off with the Runeglaive enchant instead of Magus. We think that Runeglaive provides a lot more value to him than you'd expect (in particular, the mana restore is pretty juicy for him). But we've also seen a long history of jungle Fiddlesticks players succeeding without even upgrading their Machete into the Magus enchant on live. Fid is somewhat of an outlier when it comes to his jungling pattern and optimal itemization, so we decided that as long as he still has item routes that support him, we'd try to make Runeglaive more broadly applicable to a wider range of AP Junglers.
: I know it has a unique Icon as it tells you that this is for engaging with mega gnar. I feel as though your not supposed to bounce cause your tehnically big gnar when your transforming
Yes, you're intended to be able to use the Little Gnar form bouncing E as you transform into Mega Gnar. Big plays baby. Also, yes the boulder is supposed to splash.
  Rioter Comments
  Rioter Comments
: Probably whatever they were on release, something like .55-75
  Rioter Comments
: I'm actually pretty fond of the new "pace" that involves more Empowered spells, but I'd ask 2 quick questions: 1)Aren't you worried that, with Q still being an autoattack resetter scaling on %Total AD, Rengar can still be an assassin that drops squishies so quickly they can't react? One common idea from players was making Q2 give less AS and better damage scaling with %of the enemy missing health, so that it works better as an execute than as a simple damage tool, and that enemies who are roaming/alone at full health have a little room to breath if they are engaged. 2) No one answered yet on this... shouldn't Q proc on turrets? Most melee autoattack enhancers do, like Nasus Q, Garen Q, Darius W, Jax W, Jayce melee form passive, Diana's passive, etc. The only exceptions are those who transform the whole damage into magical (like Poppy and Morde), and I guess that is due to turrets having less mr than armor.
A significant part of Q2's power is rooted in the scaling steroids it gives him, instead of a large amount of burst bonus damage. So his sustained damage should be very strong, but not quite as frontloaded as his live Q2 version. This is also the reason the damage is not based around an execute mechanic; it's meant to feel useful when you engage the fight and not just to finish off a wounded target. The Q buff not being consumed on towers is intended. It still gives the attack reset, though (it functions like Jax's W or Vayne Q in this regard). You can still get the big AS buff from Q2 to push down towers if you have a wave to interact with.
: Lets talk Rengar
Hey guys, I wanted to thank you all for the feedback you're giving. I see a lot of you comparing the abilities side-by-side (e.g. old Q did this, new Q does this, therefore it's worse/better, etc.). We're keeping a careful eye on the issues you guys are bringing up. One important change that I think people haven't picked up on yet is the cooldown decrease to his abilities. Level 1 cooldowns for Q/W/E on PBE are now 6/12/10, whereas on live they are 8/15/12. Keep this in mind when you play him in lane, as the intended outcome is that you have more access to his empowered abilities. Keep the bug reports coming in. I also think we're going to try adding movement speed back to Rengar's ultimate while in stealth before the 20 stack Bonetooth bonus kicks in, so be ready for that on PBE soon.

HeyItsChaBoiJag

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