: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Pool Party Taric!
#You know what it would be cool? #When Taric casts his ult and sunglasses drop down on him and his ally, the glasses stay on them as a cool _**DEAL WITH IT**_ moment as long as the ult lasts :D Nice Taric Bay(be)watch skin, i really like it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
: PLEASE HELP
If you have problems with your client or patcher, contact Riot Support and file it under Technical Difficulties and PBE option.
: Stop nerfing kindread
And as jungling marksmen, kindred should be frail early on and not on Graves' level of endurance. As it turns out, even Graves up to this point avoided fighting with them early because of ther dueling power and extra sustain.
: Where is U.R.F ?
Urf got killed by Warwick. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
: Shut up.
You've literally gotten an opportunity to ask a real question about the possible concerns you might have with the changes and you've chosen to cling to something that doesn't matter because it was stated as something to help illustrate a point. It really isn't surprising that someone of your calliber finds his way on the live boards and becomes a jaded player who isn't satisfied with anything but is more than willing to dabble with sophistry. 0<[]: ^)
: What are traditional supports supposed to build then? Frost Fang is for mages who do damage to get gold, Targon is for tanks who get gold for being in the front lines in lane, and Coin was for supports, who get gold for being near their ADC at all times. But now Icon of the Sun Disk is for roaming tanks? What am I supposed to get on Janna or Soraka who aren't supposed to be building Frost Fang.
Why is Talisman not an appealing option for Janna or Soraka anymore? If you're playing a passive support, Talisman supports this playstyle fully and having a Point Runner passive + Talisman Active and the stats it provides are not even at odds with these champions. So why do you say "Talisman is now for roaming tanks and where does this leave me?"
: I'll try to explain myself: no, I do not expect each family of support items to be *just* for the class it was designed for. What do I mean with "the class it was designed for"? Well, it's like you did now when you said above the coin line was meant for heavy spell usage champions. Those champions often end up being from the same subclass. Obviously Targon isn't meant just for tanks (Thresh is a bit of an impostor, really, and the best example of this) but it's very streamlined for them. This is undeniable, it goes as far as to limit its ability to execute minions for melee champions. If we can agree that these families are fairly streamlined for the champions they were designed for and that this distinction is important enough as to merit some mechanics that limit the ability for one class to opt into another family without giving up a key component (in a direct way, not in he form of cost of opportunity), you can understand my concern better. My concern is that Talisman as it's outlined will cease to be *best* on the type of champion it was designed for because the most meaningful part of Shurelya's has always been the active, not necessarily the stats. I don't believe that mana regen is enough of a turnoff stat for the class of tank/engage supports not to displace caster supports as the best users of this item. Sure, Blitzcrank is an example of a champion that likes Talisman a whole lot because of multiple factors: the way he positions in fights, his synergy with burst movement speed, his monumental mana costs in lane... That doesn't mean that Blitzcrank's class is better at using the item than the enchanter supports Talisman has historically catered to. Why? Because the principle I outlined in the last paragraph has been in place: the stat line for Talisman is unappealing for them due to the lack of defensive stats. They could be better users of the active, though... and there's the problem. With this change, Blitzcrank's class becomes the best at using the active, as they've always been, but will also benefit from most of the stats provided by item, including coveted defensive stats ranged supports are not too excited about due to their playstyles, and roaming ability, which has historically been a melee support strength, not so much a caster support one. What item they're giving up shouldn't be in discussion: Talisman users are foregoing increased lane presence by foregoing the Spellthief line. This doesn't make up for the fact that if you don't have the tools to reliably proc Spellthief charges, you're not an optimal spellthief user. I don't know if I explained myself well enough: what makes an item optimal for a certain class is enforced by the items themselves, that's the tradeoff for choosing it off-class. with this change, there is no reasonable in-item mechanic for a class that already has the Targon line as their hallmark item to dissuade them from opting for the Coin line. The end product is better suited for engage champions, tanks, than -ultimately- enchanter-type supports, who are the historical champions of Talisman, just like poke supports have been the Spellthief users by excellence. This leaves supportive-caster type champions bereft of an item best suited for them, which is what I meant with encroaching. No one argues that the spellthief line is better on Sona than it is on Janna, but you will without a doubt say that Talisman is better on Leona than it is on Soraka when that shouldn't be the case, given that Leona already has an item in which she's undoubtedly superior to Sona in FotM. The other concern I mentioned is that Talisman's identity is being muddled unduly: if the coinline is for sustained spell users, why add Raptor's Cloak as a component to the end item if that component contributes to nothing to the champion class the family is being primed for? As I said before, tankiness and roaming ability rewards another type of champion entierly, and in the end the item pulls in two very different directions and the coin flip is ultimately decided by the heaviest side. Shurelya's active tilts the coin toward Vanguards. A tank will return to lane with Raptor's Cloak, not Nomad's Medallion, and will save up the money necessary to buy the full item if need be, and will only be minorly bothered by having to buy mana regeneration if they don't, since it's not like they can't make use of the stat. This path is better for tanks than Nomad's Medallion is for enchanters, so they'll be more powerful than the supposed-to-be optimal users.
I can't quite agree with your argument. Sure, engage type supports might see the value in the item (on one more front - defense) but that's really just an excuse for saying that offering some other stats with the support items can skew the vision for who the specific item was designed for. Talisman wasn't designed for enchantress-type supports, i believe that the item was designed for supports who play passively and the effect that can provide a getaway or engagement is an added bonus. They too can appreciate tank stats and movement speed boost the Raptor Cloak provides, as they can as well return to the lane faster and contribute sooner to their teams. They too can get caught in the line of fire and being entirely squishy is always a bad thing. Even Soraka sometimes decides to get Warmogs and not because it's a great support item. It isn't an item designed for tanks, it is an item designed for champions that want to increase their health pool. Tanks most usually get it but so can the champions who would see a reason to pick it up. Soraka isn't really AP constrained and Warmog's effects allow her to regenerate her HP in rapid succession and continue her ambulance duty. Even if tank supports decide to skip Nomad's, they are returning to lane with tank stats and forgoing the lane sustain and increased gold generation that in the end, delays item purchases. They won't automatically win when they get the Talisman because the item doesn't offer flawless engages. To drive one more point further, having a perfect synergy item for a specific champion WILL LIMIT THEIR POWER to the item at hand. It would make the item a mandatory purchase in order for you to be an optimal champion. It's what happened with old Vladimir and WotA. Vlad was intentionally kept underpowered until he has gotten his WotA because he has historically been a problem when he was strong on his own.
: > 300 AP is a bit high Lol, that's silly. 150 ap is a bit high, 300 ap is stupid. No wonder you guys can't balance properly, you don't know what's really happening in games.
Xypherous just threw some numbers from a specific playtested game. In no way shape or form did he claim this is the norm for supports. And by the way, i most usually play Morgana and Lux as supports so on my best day, i have around 300 AP so even your prediction that supports never get this high is bad. If you're going to be unreasonable and demeaning, you know where the door is.
: [Champion Mastery] I am super confused about my grade and mastery score
You didn't get a total of 289 mastery points. Grade A awarded you with additional 289 mastery points. The total was probably 900+ or 1000+ mastery points because you've won th game. Hovering over the right circle will show you your grade and additional points earned by the grade. As far as the mastery grades go, it's based on the players playing the same champion and on the same role, on the same server. And it's a dyamic statistic based on total players + champion + role averages and it changes daily. PBE doesn't have much players and you can't expect fair grades in any direction because the sample size for drawing averages is too small. That makes the result pretty skewed.
: PBE 6.13 Sona Changes
Well, i have a few thoughts about these Sona changes: _**Hymn of Valor**_ I always thought that Sona's proc damage was too low and that it really didn't matter in lane. It favored her poke and i never really saw Sona as a good poke champion or else you risk turning her into Bard. She is more aura focused and for the time being, i really like this change as it buffs your ally and you with a nice 1 auto poke. #_**Although i'd rather she buffs your AAs or your skills, like a mini Luden's effect for your allies.**_ _**Aria of Perseverance**_ Looks weak TBH. Given her ult utility regarding her skills, she can really spam this heal and i understand the nerf to % increase the lower someone is but in general, paying 100 mana for a weak heal and barely any shield is just weak. Is Sona even building any mana items to pay for the cost? ##I suggest that her shield at least's lasts for a little longer or provides a small damage mitigation - 5-10% should be enough not to be overbearing but still contribute to close fights without increasing these values. And make is so that this mitigation zone is tied to her aura while it's active and not always. One should keep in mind that her Windspeaker's Blessing and Athene's play a big part in how much she can extra heal and shield an ally so these numbers might also be fair, being balanced around this purchase rather than making her completely oppressive by negating too much of lane harass. _**Song of Celerity**_ As discussed in threads about her previously, this is the most welcome change. Now she doesn't feel useless without a Flash for engaging or simply legging it. Of course, her allies get MS boosted less and that's OK, considering you're leading a charge to engage with your ult anyway and your team following it up. The worst part of any immobile and slow champions is when your Flash is blown. Then it's a clown fiesta on your booty, which never feels good for you. _**Crescendo**_ Considering how much utility she gets on lvl 3 for her basic abilities, it's fair game now. With 60% CDR (not increased by your own CDR further), she will still build support items that grant CDR and that will reduce her ult CD anyway so my first impression is that these numbers 140 / 120 / 100 are pretty fair or you risk it being really low CD for an engage tool with added CDR.
: Jerky movement at the beginning of the game
I have a probable solution to your problem. In in-game Options menu, Go to Video and under Advanced, find the Frame Rate Cap. Check to see if it's Uncapped and cap it to 60 or 80 FPS (my usual settings). If your computer isn't strong enough, 30 FPS should be your cap. My computer can run on 144 FPS without a problem but Uncapped poses a big problem not for my computer but for my monitor. Most monitors have a refresh rate of 60Hz and that means (mine as well) if the FPS is too high, it will start to skip frames, leading to teleporting and jitters (called screen tearing) which isn't related to internet connection at all but it looks like that. 60 Hz monitors with Vertical Sync on will cap your frame rate to 60 FPS (60 Hz means the monitor refreshes 60 times/s and that translates to 60 frames per second). Also, disable Vertical Sync if you think your computer isn't a strong machine. It stabilizes the image at the cost of performance (eliminates screen tearing) and on higher end computers, this shouldn't pose a problem while turned on. League doesn't need big resources to run but there are a few options that eat up resources (i always turn off Shadows) and reduce your FPS.
: So, about those SKT skins...
If you guys don't mind me asking but, can you make SKT Sivir's glaive a little bit more rounded? Somewhere along the lines of her Warrior Princess skin but still have shape of SKT's logo? This version of her weapon hardly resembles a glaive, due to it's shape and it looks kind of weird just flying through the air like that. I believe that Sivir's skins are pretty unique and that her weapon is a high point for each of these because the weapon is of different design. That brings me to another problem - Bandit Sivir. What i liked about that skin was, before her Update, her weapon had 5 blades and now has 4. Considering that a few of her other skins have: * 1 blade for Victorious Sivir * 2 blades for Huntress Sivir * 3 Blades for Inquisitor Sivir * 4 blades for Default, PAX, Spectacular and Warrior Princess * 6 blades for Snowstorm Sivir The only thing that's missing is 5 bladed glaive design for the Bandit skin, that was there prior to her VU. Would you consider adding this back in? Thanks. You bet that i will buy SKT Sivir as well :)
: Should be Soraka.exe
THANKS SORAKA CARE {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: I understand. Just wanted to make sure that they were thinking about it and how it should be in the final stages for sure!
They won't deliver the new client with less features than this one - when it comes out of the beta. Right now, it's in early alpha testing, with a really limited number of people.
: First time PBE downloading, taking over 17 hours?
PBE is pretty much about the same size as the normal LoL client so it's not supposed to take about 24 hours. There's could be an issue with corrupted files which i had a problem as well and riot support helped me resolve the issue. I'd suggest you contact them and file your problem under technical difficulties; PBE. The article they told me to look at was https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202969434 I tried manually to force a re-patch as a first fix and i fixed my problem. If you're unsure in what you're doing, contact them first before following any other instructions. The most easy ones is to just try patching it again or fixing the client files from the patcher itself.
: That is clear and it's not the point of the discussion. I'm arguing that those 10 rare gems can be made into 10 chests and keys, which can contain content that has a value much higher than a 975 RP-tier skin. My point is that the exclusive skin shouldn't have a "cost" so high that it appeals only those who play Annie extensively. I think that, to have a fair and reasonable trade, the value of an hextech-exclusive skin should be slightly higher than its cost, which is, in this case, 10 pieces of content that can possibly be rerolled into very valuable skins (like legendary and ultimate ones), or, as you suggested, disenchanted into essences to upgrade shards into permanent items. When you reroll, 3 skin shards forge a permanent skin, therefore 10 rare gems would have the value of 3 random skins. If you upgrade instead, it usually takes the cosmetic essences of 3 or 4 skin shards to forge another shard into a permanent skin, therefore 10 rare gems would have the value of 2 skins of your choice at your disposition.
Remember, you're paying this price to have a specific skin unlocked, in a system that offers random loot. So you're paying for the skin itself + 100% chance to craft it and for its exclusive nature. A rare gem has about 3.7% chance to drop, skin shards about 60% and champion shards 31%. In any case, you're either going to spend them for an exclusive Annie skin or just use them for more chests that you will either keep the contents or disenchant them for future crafting. It's not an easy skin to obtain but that's the point. It's exclusive. In either way, it's a win-win situation, you're not wasting anything.
: Sivir's Ricochet, Fervor of Battle, and Thunder lords
How easy would you find proccing Fervor and Thunderlords without even interacting directly with a lane opponent but simply letting Ricochet do the work for you through minion waves? That would be pretty low agency and easy damage so i guess it's not enabled because of this or because Ricochet is not counted as a spell or attack, it's a AA modifier.
: HEXTECH CRAFTING Pls Rioters answer to me
If you're specifically fishing for red replies, you will in most cases not find an answer. This has been answered in the Hextech crafting Q&A and regardless what you've found on PBE from loot, the feature is still in testing. PAX and Championship skins are not on the loot table, according to their skin tiers guide.
: Hextech Annie "costs" too much
When you get a gem from a chest, you also get more content from it - not just a gem. So the actual cost is not 10 chests and keys, you always get more rewards from gem chests anyway. It is potentially 10 eq pieces but if you want an Annie skin - which is a very specific skin mind you - it's well worth it. Those 10 random pieces of eq may very well be nothing you want and end up disenchanting it anyway, resulting in just essences gained for potentially more content to craft in the future.
: because Annie needs another skin (10th) when there are champs that literally have 1-2 skins: Diana {{champion:131}} . That's disgusting RIOT. I don't care that she gonna get that Fire skin, community voting shouldn't be **THE ONLY** even reason to make skin for her.** If you guys weren't working on skin for Diana even before** Allstars voting than you are just showing giant **MIDDLE FINGER** for all Diana players specially that Leona got project skin recently. Diana = 2 skins (last skin 3 years ago) Leona = 5 skins (she gets them so often) And the fact you guys also piss of Diana mains by making Bloodmoon skin for more and more champs but not for Diana and also make Bloodmoon Icon that looks like rotate Lunari mark is also not cool. I won't be surprised if when she will get it finally she will just look as genderbend Bloodmoon Shen: Diana wearing fullbody powerranger costume and mask = literally Shen I wonder if she will get skins (non Fire one) during the incoming Mt.Targon that everyone is expecting or you will again ignore Diana and probably give something for Pantheon and Leona
> [{quoted}](name=Lukinerx,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=I2tZj6E7,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-02-24T19:39:01.490+0000) > And the fact you guys also piss of Diana mains Just because you're a buttface on the boards, i'd pay Riot in RP to see them piss on and off you by officially never making a skin for Diana. I'd personally like to see my female Mordekaiser skin (if Riot ever decides to go into r63 skinlines) but you don't see me complaining, do you? Also avoid sitting on large salt piles. On top of making you salty, it also dries your skin. Cheers {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
: [CRITICAL] Help us playtest new Champ Select over Thanksgiving!
I'd love to help playtest Lyte but the queue times are unbearably long... 200 minutes for a single game? The only reason why i even reached this number and not simply logged off is because i even forgotten i was in Q LOL Meanwhile i'll just enjoy a Jinx sticker :P {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Kata Senpai,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=00620000,timestamp=2015-11-08T13:18:16.954+0000) > > Prioritizing was changed with her VU. Q now prioritizes the target that stands exactly behind the minion ( if there are multiple targets , than the closest one will be chosen ) It pretty much always did that anyways im just refering to the loss of being able to force a champion bounce with Impure shots now as a huge nerf to lane phase and hopefully getting something to compensate like if a champ has been hit in the last 5 seconds Q will bounce to them over anything else as long as they are in the cone
Double Up will prioritize a champion affected by Love Tap. Love Tap doesn't expire, but it is transferred to the last target hit.
: if a -teamfight- breaks out, yes. but skirmishes and bot engages? if your jungler ganks? maybe your ult is on cooldown, or maybe it's not worth using it when normally you could use your auto attacks to take down their adc. but you can't do that, you have to hit their supp as well in order to have damage. MF is not and i don't want her to be a 1v1 champion, but as an ADC i expect her to be able to focus targets when needed. i love the kit, as i've said countless times before. but the numbers are not fit for an ADC. lower love tap dmg bonus so it's still there but not needing to rely on it, and bump up the AD. it's just scandalous how an ADC now has one of the lowest [4th i think] AD in game. :/
How is it scandalous? - Kog Maw can break AS cap now (to 5.0). - Graves has a shotgun and reloads his auto-attacks and is practically a melee range ADC. - Caitlyn now headshots everyone who looks at her funny. - Corki has Rumble ult W to split teamfights or cut off escapes. - Quinn is possibly a mid laner and has a full blown MS focused ult ( a roaming ADC). - Mordekaiser is the first juggernaut to enter the ADC lane as a replacement. - Miss Fortune sucks at 1v1 but she shines in a 1v2 scenario. Also crushes teamfights with AoE. Every champion on this list does something completely different. Even the ones that i didn't mention already have their identities. Even if you say her AD is the 4th lowest, her Love Tap completely makes up for this stat deficiency but just for 1 shot. So, swap target with 1 shot and return to the previous target for a refresh. It's that easy. Mathematically, her DPS and scalings are way better than ever before. It's just your perception of her that is skewed. I'm just afraid that Riot will take you guys way too seriously and add a bunch of on-hit effects to her Love Tap so suddenly, there's that one item interaction that everyone missed on PBE, so we end up with MF pooping on all of you in every scenario. **In the end, let's recap:** Miss Fortune sucks in 1v1s. Not completely but you can do a hit-and-run tactic to mini-burst people and scare them off into having to fight with lower HP. You absolutely don't want a solo fight if you don't have to take it, you should be more on the lookout for a teamfight - such as a Dragon fight or a bot tea party with 3+ people. Even a tight jungle area is your ideal place to ult. Your job is either to opt into using your ult so you disengage and set up for that or you decide to optimize damage for Love Taps. Both options are not mutually exclusive, it depends on the situation.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kata Senpai,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005900000000,timestamp=2015-11-05T05:39:25.337+0000) > > Well she is way more complex now, but Imo she will also be way stronger when mastered Its not a question of her being strong when mastered, as this mechanic in its current state gives all the power to her opponents as she has no reasonable way to continuously proc her passive. You could have the best mechanics in the world, but if you have nothing else to hit, you simply aren't gonna do damage to your target. Damage that every other ADC can actually do, and without the extra hassle. MF in her current state on PBE has to be in an ideal scenario to be effective, and this ideal scenario is almost completely dependent on her opponent making continuous mistakes, and/or failing to understand how she functions.
No. Out of 5 games i played with MF, i never encountered the problem you're claiming she has. And out of these 5 games, i was mid in 1. Even if i knew i couldn't beat my opponent in a 1v1, thanks to her Love Tap, simply bouncing it off minions and laying off the needless fights when i knew i can't win is paramount to the success of an averagely intelligent player. I feel like a lot of people do try to blame the champion design than themselves. Maybe you're just not playing the champion correctly. For example, i have absolutely no idea how to play Fiora correctly, and me complaining that she has no damage is just not true, considering how once she wins her lane, 1v1 is impossible. Also Marin's Fiora puts me to shame. Miss Fortune is an incredibly easy champion to play and just having the right mindset around her strengths and weaknesses is something you need to work on.
: Well she is way more complex now, but Imo she will also be way stronger when mastered
She actually isn't more complex now. Nothing about her has changed significantly, except your mindless clicking on 1 unit until it's dead. If anything, it requires 2 brain cells to work together instead of 1. Because her passive now works best if bounced between 2 targets, your DPS is much more powerful on 2 people than 1, even if this statement seems illogical. "She is a better 2v1 champion than a 1v1." Which supports her dual gun fantasy and also her AoE, bullet blanketing fantasy.
: It's an interesting passive, but the big issue is it's implementation and surrounding effects. She lost base AD AND AD per level growth, along with Impure Shots in exchange for it, and it feels extremely hard to actually use effectively. She was able to duel champions fine prior to the rework, but now she simply CANNOT win a 1v1. Rather than feeling rewarded for using her passive, she feels punished for not using it. Someone else went into greater detail what's wrong with them, but basically, compared to the other reworks, just feels like they tried to make Miss Fortune something she isn't, and many MF mains are upset about it. I main MF on live to great effect, and I can't figure out how to make her new kit work at all. Also: > One of the great things about MF is that she's very simple and approachable, so although we do want to add more mastery and depth to her - we'd prefer to have that with as little complexity creep as possible. Instead she feels WAY more complex to play than she does live.
Miss Fortune is not a 1v1 specialist. She specializes in hit-and-run tactic and teamfights. If you want a 1v1 champion, don't pick MF. Her 1v1 potential is basically just bursting someone with the initial proc of her Love Tap + Q if you want and that's about it. It's somewhere around 400+ damage if itemized a little bit with that 1 AA but her 1v1 potential is limited to a 3 second W window and low base AD stats + item on-hits. Considering that in every other situation she excels at, i think that leaving her lackluster in a 1v1 is something she needs to have as a weakness because without it, she'd be a well rounded pick. That's something Riot never supported and honestly, i also feel like it's bad for the game.
: Love Tap is weird for me. Switching ennemies is maybe a nice idea but MF just doesn't have the tools for that in an actual fight. Sure it works with her Q and (I guess) her Ultimate but the bouncing of the Q is so much small that it rarely work against player with a brain. The W is fine I guess but I feel like it's lacking something. Feels just like another boost like we already have a tons of time in this game. The E is OK, it's great to be able to slow farther. Already saved me numerous times. The R feels more powerfull enough. I like him. If we speak about "Love" (tap) and MF being a sexy bimbo who made everyone fall for her I think we could find something else that is more fitting. Maybe around a mechanic of love-taunt like Ahri has but under some circonstances (and of course, weaker) ?
No. Since Ahri already occupies the space of charming people into submission, making MF do the same thing and just in a role of a marskman is just unoriginal. You'll have to deal with that you have right here and if not, i'm sure there are other 126 champions that could appeal to you. I'd also love that Riot makes a champion specifically for me but that's also not happening. Champions are being made to appeal to a larger player base and it's completely normal that certain percentile will dislike the design for their own reasons. Now if you'll excuse me, i have 2 big guns to test for a while {{champion:21}}
: this is not about dueling, this is about focusing a high priority target in a teamfight! MF was made completely useless when not doing what rito wanted her to- hitting multiple targets. it's cool that is her identity and i agree with it, i love that identity, but rito went WAY TOO FAR!!! because they made her mediocre to useless when not doing that, whereas** other ADCs are good when not doing what is in their identity, but fantastic when they are doing it. MF is good when she does it and absolutely lackluster when she doesn't**! and there are situations when she shouldn't!! you won't stop attacking that 10/2 fizz, YOU DON'T WANT TO, EVEN IF YOU ARE MF! and you shouldn't have to! the utter counter-logic baffles me. RITO PLS I'M CRYING FOR REAL.
I don't understand what's the problem here. **"This isn't about dueling, it's about focusing high priority targets in a teamfight."** If a teamfight breaks out, you just ult and don't worry about who to focus. You're hitting all 5 people at the same time. MF was never a 1v1 champion. Just look at her kit: **Q** - poke tool, better through a dying target. **Questionable use in a 1v1.** **W** - steroid 20-60% AS. Pretty mediocre. Her Impure Shots were needed to be stacked first, again, making this insanely time consuming in a 1v1 where you specifically want to straight out murder people as fast as you can. **AS good, stacking mechanic not in a 1v1.** **E** - AP scaling AoE slow. For lockdowns or escapes only. **Useless in a 1v1.** **R** - Channeling AoE ability. **Useless in a 1v1.** Out of 4 skills in a 1v1 scenario, only one is usable, one questionable and passive negated. How does MF compare to someone who is a 1v1 specialist, like Vayne, Jinx or Lucian for example? Miss Fortune's forte is full blown teamfights where she can blanket the enemy team with bullets, basically run-and-gun marskman (hit-and-run tactic). If you always wanted a 1v1 champion that is a marskman, you would have never picked Miss Fortune in the first place. You're making a complaint that goes against what Miss Fortune stands for and this is exactly why Riot is giving each marskman a unique role in the team. If all marskmen would do the same things (a 1v1), then the best marskman would be the one with the best stats. In this case, what's the point of other 19 marksmen if none of them have a unique identity or a different way to contribute to the team? This kit right now - it exactly delivers on Miss Fortune's fantasy of an AoE marskman. You are heavily rewarded for playing her this way because all her stats were significantly buffed and her Love Tap requires of you to just get used to switching targets instead of hammering down one. And this isn't like Yasuo's Sweeping Blade mechanic that has a cooldown between casts on the same target. If you want to maximize the DPS, just switch between 2 targets minimum. With her insane W steroid and her refreshing W mechanic, you will absolutely demolish 2 people at the same time without the loss of DPS, like everyone claims. I've played her 5 games already and i've not been able to run into the low damage problem like everyone else's been having. That's probably because you're all playing her like a 1v1 champion and this is exactly what she is not. To drive this point further, playing MF like a 1v1 marskman is like playing Vayne AP. See how that works out for you. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: I think it's very reasonable to call us out on the fact that we have done a poor job on following up on our designs that fail, but it's not a good excuse to stop exploring new grounds since that will just lead to staleness. I know it's pretty unreasonable to tell you to trust us based on some of our track record, but I have every intent to follow up if Love Tap makes Miss Fortune into a worse champion.
Mr. Statikk sir, i have some exciting news for you! :) After playing 4 games with her, i can't honestly say i feel the pain that everyone's been feeling about MF's dueling potential. I just am seeing her 1v1 potential is lacking a bit but this 2v1 potential is off the charts. In fact, the more people or even minions are in the fight, there's a lot of potential everyone's missing out on just because everyone follows the Vayne playstyle - 1v1 people until everyone's dead. Some thoughts: **Love Tap** Who ever thought her Love Tap would be a free on hit effect that goes well with her Q that makes it easier to straight out chunk targets without killing minions through it. And if you do this the regular way, that's even more insane amount of poke... At one point i've been doing 400 single AA damage to people! Why are people saying this is underpowered? The way i was playing MF on live is basically the same way you've envisioned her now to be played. The reason why i wasn't doing so good is because her kit on live isn't delivering this fantasy and even itemization heavily favors straight out AA people or people whose skills scale insanely off AD. MF on live isn't even a good duelist nor is she good to change targets with. Her only AD skill was pretty much only worth shooting through a dying target so the only ability in her kit that had any use was W when she's in a pinch. THIS VERSION OF HER IS PRETTY MUCH HOW I ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY HER and it heavily rewards me for doing so. So i don't see any problems with her being in a bad position to Q through minions or even fight 1v2 by changing targets. That's not the case. I'm even go as far to say she's OP in the hands of the right people. **Q** Q has the same ratios, same damage, same functionality as Live. I have no objections to this. It's a very satisfying ability to use, not too costly, not to weak. Interaction with Love Tap enables this to execute fresh minions to an unexpected damage bump into a Love Tap onto a champion for a decent chunk of damage LOL Perfect spot to be in. **W** I've never been able to pull off more AS that 1.3-1.6 with Live Itemization before, not even with her Impure Shots active. The way of refreshing the duration by constantly changing targets and the raw 120% AS boost and with nothing more than Berseker's and Zeal or Shiv/Firecannon, i'm hitting 1.6-2.25 AS, which is insane! I'm not even itemizing AS properly, and any form of AD is just absolute bonkers tbh. It needs to be tuned down or else we're going with the pre-nerf Jinx levels of bonkers. I'm thinking reducing the overall AS boost to 100% max level, 120% seems way too high, way too early into the game. You're right though, everyone's been neglecting this combination because everyone's focus has been on how much damage her individual skills deal in a 1v1 scenario and her weakness is a 1v1 or getting caught. But in any sub-optimal or even optimal scenario, her damage is above what she could muster on Live. Like way, way above. And if you do this AA multi-targeting optimally, AS can be maintained during the entire fight, making the activation of her W unnecessary, leaving it up for refreshing Strut if needed or restarting the massacre. **E** I like the range increase - 1000 is way more useful. 800 felt way too short in most of the cases with me as when i try to fast E+R combo, i almost always missed the range on her E and just fired R because she didn't get to a position from where she can cast her E. You get a big plus from me for this neat range buff. **R** I can honestly say that i've not felt the need to ult unless i could wombo combo with my team. My damage has been in a good place so unless there's a mosh pit somewhere and i'm not the focus of it, i'm gonna ult, otherwise i'm perfectly fine kiting and swapping targets. However, i did feel like lvl 6 ult was a little bit weak. Later ult damage is in a decent place, not doing too much damage to big, meaty dudes with armor too hard but not something you want to sit in for the full duration. TL;DR I seriously adore this version of MF. It's how i've always played her and never got any decent satisfaction for doing it. Now i actually am being rewarded for playing her this way and honestly, it feels amazing! One point to make though, i was also satisfied with her Burning Tides rework and damage on PBE first and unless she was nerfed a bit, when she hit Live or after, i didn't enjoy the spot she landed in. That's how i feel now on Live, despite me force picking her into oblivion. It could be very well me stomping players who are still adjusting to the big changes so i'm not getting the accurate picture on PBE but i guess i'll make another post when she hits live, to assess the state she's in. Or maybe a little bit more testing on PBE. Just a little bit {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} <3 {{champion:21}} <3
: Even ignoring the question of whether you'll keep your intent (I imagine Stashu had every intent of following up on Cass, too. Look what happened), why do you experiment and explore new grounds on existing champs, instead doing it with new champs that no one has any opinion on and that won't anger existing mains? Or even just existing 'I play this champ occasionally' people.
This is extremely close-minded of you. "Riot shouldn't experiment with outdated champion kits because there's that 1% of the players who main said champion and that's a whopping 1% play rate in each individual's games". Nothing RIot does will receive 100% praises. People who don't want to see MF will cry when she gets a buff, people who want to see MF will cry when she gets a nerf and old fossils who take pride in owning MF from her release but not actually playing her will cry when she gets a rework - claiming that they absolutely adored her kit. Let me tell you something about MF (as someone who played her in 30% of my ranked games) - she isn't in a good place. Her rework (The Burning Tides) made me feel ecstatic that i could pick her up again but she still feels off. I'd say that this adjustment to her kit was well overdue and it has me both excited and horrified. Excited that she has a new passive and horrified that her base stats are dumpstered for the sake of that skill. And reading this thread only puts me in a bad mood because maybe you people are playing MF incorrectly? She was never a true AA marksman (like Vayne, for example) but she was more caster-ish marskman. Someone who weaves in spells and AAs for maximized damage. I still need to try her out and i'll do this today so i can have my opinion on this board, at least a more positive one - and not for the sake of balancing it out but because i played MF in 30% of my ranked games so i feel like i can explore a bit more options than Vayne Maynes. **TL;DR** KEEP CALM AND BRING BIG GUNS {{champion:21}}
Rioter Comments
: The visuals are a nice improvement. Especially on bullet time! I have a concern about the her visuals: Her 3 "braids" (I use that term overwhelmingly loosely) are sortof a trademark in her appearance. Can we keep that going? Pirate hunters don't have salon, silky smooth, perfectly brushed hair. I am concerned on the change to impure shots. Grievous wounds was a really unique thing that MF brought to the table, and if that's getting removed entirely, something BIG should make up for it! Granting strut for activating her W is a neat idea; but it seems like it's something that we're hardly going to get value out of since strut can be knocked off so easily. If you Double-Up off a caster creep and hit the enemy champion, you almost always lose your passive due to the immediate cry for help. That's not very rewarding. The enemy should have to hit me for me to lose my passive! {{champion:86}} #GarenPrivilege Ideas for her W: - Strut should not be knocked off by minions, ever. Especially with the way Double-Up generates creep hate so often. - When active, strut cannot be cancelled by any source of damage. - When active, auto attacks on enemy champions reapply strut. Bullet time has a great new animation. Bullets EVERYWHERE! YEESSSS! One problem, sortof: The graphic seems a tad... wispy(?) with all the action going on, it can be really hard to see the exact area Bullet Time is effecting. I am also concerned about MF's damage. She has no escapes, and there is no way you can put her in the "mobile ADC" category, which is fine; but she needs to have tools to make up for that. Mobility is super effective, and I think Riot has undervalued mobility when it comes to game balance. ADC's can hardly stand still for half of a second with terrors like {{champion:103}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:238}} on the rift. One misstep and you're dead. For standing still for TWO FULL SECONDS, you better be doing some formidable damage. The reward for full duration Bullet Times gets relatively reduced as the game goes on as her E > R combo doesn't scale with crit or AS at all, and doesn't scale with AD or Armor pen as well as other champions, because the AD scaling does magic damage, and the physical damage scales off of AP. Ideas to fix MF's damage: -Bullet time should have an AD ratio, or somehow needs to deal more physical damage. 2 seconds of immobility is huge, make the reward for it appropriate. -Bullet time could deal 2x stacks of impure shots each wave, assuming the current mechanics are left as is. -Bullet time could deal 1,2,3x stacks of impure shots each wave, assuming the current mechanics are left as is. I fucking love this champion so much. <3 you all. {{champion:21}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:21}} EDIT FOR EASY TO FIND FEATURES DISCUSSED: -Make it Rain adding stacks of Impure Shots (let us test this one plzzzz! <3) -Visuals for how many stacks of W people have. #Clarity {{summoner:13}} -Better Q prioritization. Should it prioritize champions? (If there is some super deep pro game designer reason why it should not, I'd love to hear about it (that was not sarcasm))
I don't think they should add any changes you're suggesting. Don't take it personally but your suggestions would make her really hard to fight against early game, which would shut down pretty much any resistance and put her way ahead of the enemy without even thinking about it. **Explanation:** _Grievous Wounds_ Her kit was unchanged except shaving her hidden power as this shuts down any regeneration or healing in a lane by just fighting with her. Which means you can simply start a fight on auto-pilot, knowing your utility will be 50% more effective than your opponent's. As an adc, unless your imba-fed, you should never start a fight because you can. Being strategic is the way to go. _Strut_ Her buffed Strut is 10 MS short of Boots of Swiftness + Alacrity enchant. On lvl 1. You can use your Impure Shots to refresh it, allowing you to avoid fighting if a stray skillshot hits you. It already has a non direct damage (non dot damage) protection. If you never take any direct HP damage (shields OP), your Strut will remain in effect - Kayle's ult being the only exception with no other shields on you. So having a shield is awesome. BT OP (Morgana's Black Shield counts too but only for spell damage). _Double Up_ The skill has had it's coding cleaned up again and i don't really see a reason why it should prioritize champions over closest units. This really extends your harass range without having to interact with the opponent directly, which is not something you want to reinforce with anyone. Dying minion + Strut + more range + low mana cost = abuse cases. This way, ability's predictable for you and your opponent. You can catch them off guard with a surprise DP or you can farm near perfectly and not be putting yourself in a bad spot to last hit that pesky caster minion that is well into the ranges of your opponents. _Make it Rain_ Don't see a reason why this should stack Impure Shots. It's meant as a disengage tool (it even has an AP ratio) and has a pretty good slow on lvl 1. Hefty mana cost so not spammable but useful in cases where you really need it. Most of the time, i use this with Bullet Time to make the enemy sit in it for a near full-full duration or having to waste Flashes or Heals to escape it. Or for escapes. Or for engages, at which point i just tag the enemy with one bullet before they leave the range. This is definitely not the ability that needs to be stacking your Impure Shots. You rely on your AAs and Bullet Time to do that. _Bullet Time_ Before her gameplay update, i really wondered if this skill was worth the mana. Now, it's pretty good. Yes, her ult deals physical damage that only scales in rank and has an AP ratio but it adds 3 more stacks (+1 per ability rank) of Impure Shots, effectively adding the damage from that ability to it's own, for a hybrid damage output. I personally like her being a hybrid damage dealer. It makes it hard for an opponent to stack one type of resist against you, which means you don't have to go LW or TBC early. Bullet Time really has the potential do deal insane amounts of damage, under the right circumstances and its up to the player to make it work in his advantage. It depends on multiple factors but the cool thing about it is that IT ISN'T DEPENDENT ON A RANK OF IMPURE SHOTS. Having to level your steroid before poke is bad unless you're Jonx (intentional o). So the good use of your ult is either to cover as much enemies as possible for as long as you can to maximize the damage **OR** First stack your Impure Shots fully on a target before locking them down with Make it Rain and a full duration of Bullet Time. This combo ensures maximum damage possible as then Bullet Time doesn't need to stack your Impure Shots, it deals full damage on each wave. **Bullet Time is good early and mid game for damage and falls of late game but at the same time, your build should be finalized as a standard ADC or AoE shred pirate hunter.** _Match Ups_ I think it's pretty clear that ADCs have weaknesses and those are Assassins (like {{champion:103}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:238}} ...) and Tanks. Obviously because, as a damage dealer, you prioritize damage over defense or survivability which opens you up to burst or CC-burst. And what you've said about no escapes on MF is pretty much not true. You have Strut, strut refresh and Make it Rain as counter chase tools. Not to mention a Flash and a Heal. It is enough and again, against some champions, this doesn't cut it but against those champions you don't want to be caught red handed. Either itemize against them if they are hard focusing you or have your team peel for you. This is just a part of the strategy. _**What we agree on**_ Making her Impure Shots stacks visible on enemies for the sake of clarity.
: Dont touch our Karma!!!
> [{quoted}](name=stevan123,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=poOWEgAL,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-14T20:18:01.132+0000) > > Karma is rly good and balanced right now and they are trying to nerf her i mean they remove the damage from Mantra E and bonus dmg from Mantra W wtf? > Pls tell me your Opinions.. Ty Karma is in a really weird place right now. Early game, she has a lot of zoning potential and damage to boot but if the opponents survive the laning phase and reach mid-late game, you literally have nothing to do anymore because you'll need the AP of a mid laner to actually nuke people and support them. The lack of heals and just MS/mass shield that's gated by the long CD ult without attacking is not worth the effort because items already cover the engage and disengage for fights, making her ability overrated and unnecessary. I for once, support these changes to the fullest and just because something is new, doesn't mean it's OP or UP. Wait till you try her in a few games, don't expect to know what you're doing from the game 1. I have played the old Karma and this is the conclusion i have reached with her. Early game you feel like you matter and if you win, that's fine. But if you lose or go even, your job is that much difficult once teamfights happen.
: You want opportunistic? try Warwick on for size. Sure he has an ultimate that immobilizes for a while but lacks any cc beyond it and does not do significant amounts of damage Pre-botrk at least eve can consistantly slow a target beyond red-buff (jungle WW still works don't get me wrong) however i feel like evelynn has a High-risk medium reward, which is still not quite right, if you're risking alot you should be rewarded alot, however I've seen good evelynn players and the funny thing is that the ratio of evelynn's good player to bad is tilted HEAVILY in favor of good; not because of her OP but because these guys have the tenacity to drown with their favorites; and a good evelynn is a sight to see. An AP tank A mobile assassin a intiator a disengagor an excellent warder a good spotter Everything that makes a champion scary i've seen in Evelynn, she seems to me to be almost >Jack of all trades, good for none where she can be really good for many things but has been nerfed so she's "balanced" in terms of capabilities but weaker than other champions
Well, you make a good point. It does actually have a lot to do with exploiting enemy's positioning and going in for those trades where they commit for something but let's be honest, a WW suppress (and a challenging smite) make him quite deadly in a 1v1 or a sure kill in a lane, considering he is a point and click hard CC. I do understand that all her nerfs were to keep her from snowballing without any items and i obviously support that you have to itemize to deal damage but i do have to say that still classifying her as an Assassin merely because of her passive that grants permanent invisibility is a completely different matter, where lacking raw damage and a reliable gap closer of one is not on the table. Let's compare her with Rengar: hit 6, gank people. Sure CC, sure gap closer, sure burst under that CC. I've seen Nightblue3 wipe people off the map, with nothing but a Warrior enchant and a Tiamat, which gets worse after you get more items and turn into " i ult - you dead" champion. Nocturne does the same thing: same build, he still has CC, spell shield with a steroid, damage boost, movement speed to catch up (both from his Q and fear) and ult to seal your fate if you so happen to flash out. Quite a good initiate too boot as well. Shaco: He will spam his Invis, camp-gank early or farm for Tiamat, backstab, Tiamat active, ignite... you get the point. All i'm saying is that all these champions do the Assassin role justice and Evelynn does not. As a result of her nerfs, you're a DPS'r more then a burst champion and for the people who don't want to be in your incredibly close range, don't have to do much to avoid it. And let's not talk about her mediocre ult that is a pretty lackluster skill all by itself... 1. Very high CD (150 seconds - Good thing that Garen's and Nocturne's got brought back in line but Eve's was not) 2. No minimum damage (the later you use it, the lesser the damage) 3. Not enough CC (30-70% slow for 2 seconds) 4. Flat shield amount, scales per rank and per champions hit (150 - 300 HP, max 5x) 5. Not true damage (current HP, not max HP, this ridiculous damage variance is gated by it's use and resistance building) P.S. I'd pretty much support this kind of mediocre damage if she was actually debuffing her opponents with her skills, that give her allies some nifty bonuses when she ganks for them. That would actually make her quite useful in teamfights. I don't know, something like making them bleed, slow, lose damage, receive increased damage, transfer some shield from her ult on them (AKA the free Iron Solari)... i'm pretty sure if she get's back to the drawing board, she can be made to work with little effort and a little bit of love. It doesn't need to be a rework, just a quality of life change.
: After recently buffing her passive, I started to play eve in jg. I absolutely love her, I feel she can be built about 5 different ways (ap burst, hybrid sus, ad burst, dps, and ap tank) Out of these builds I favor her ap burst, and hybrid sustain (hextech gunblade is core). When I play evelynn as ap burst (this is Gold elo on live btw) I just melt people. She easily can skirm smite-w-e-q-q-q and usually 100 to 0 a squishy, especially after Ludens (which I rush). Then later on after you snowball (unless they all have super escapes) you can go into teamfights and ult the whole team, and just lay down the damage. Remember after every kill to reset your w, it gives you fantastic positioning. I think you may be under-valueing evelynn's w as a gap closer, combining it with the range on her invisibility she can catch So many people off guard. I also want to add that I gank with her similar to a shaco, even though she doesnt have that passive it become such a powerful gank if you hit with e on their back then use w to kite with them staying between them and their turret (Ofc laying down Q's). Short answer - I think as an ap burst jungler Eve is quite strong (Ludens is important), but she isnt as good IMO AD, I feel she has to burst and get out, kinda like rengar. Using her w resets like kat its so easy to pop an adc then zoom away. I feel she will be overshadowed by BC junglers though as they have an easier time in the tank meta Great Discussion :P
You know, i had quite a hefty post about why i think Eve is just meh, but i decided to be as short and as general as possible in hope not to deter Tl;DR people who will not even give it a chance because of the volume. I'm also glad you brought this up because i don't think we should ever put ELO on a table for a discussion, when trying to justify a champion's strength or weakness. Simply because game knowledge and mechanics are on way different levels and what passes in low ELO usually has a problem passing as viable in high ELO. I don't like the idea of having champions that work at some point, only to be replaced by their "better counterparts" somewhere along the line. If we're talking about Eve's ability to gank, Rengar, Nocturne or Shaco are quite better at every sense. Even Nidalee (she only needs one spear to kill you). _**What she lacks is the reason why she is a good pick for the team and as long as her role is not defined by her kit, we'll always have a problem with someone just doing a better job then her.**_ Since i'm on my smurf and leveling, i thought Eve was a good pick in order for me to learn and i've had pretty OK results with her, playing her both AD or AP but BECAUSE people just didn't give me enough credit. They ignore wards, positioning, waste a lot of spells for kills in which case i've got a green light to just smash them in return. However, this happens because they simply let me do it. What would happen if you would to encounter a team who knows how to deal with Eve? 1. Counter pick jungler: a tank or a better assassin 2. A champion with a Dash (to avoid her ganks) or a tank 3. Safe early game, you outfarm her anyway You see that it doesn't take much footwork to counter her while Rengar, Nocturne, Shaco or Nidalee can be quite forceful when ganking while Eve is more of an opportunistic ganker, which is exactly what i don't like. EDIT I haven't even mentioned other junglers like Vi, Rek'sai, Sejuani, Nautilus... that simply blow her out of the water with sheer power or inability to deal high enough damage early to be relevant. As an assassin, Eve falls off late game as when everyone gets items and resistances and if you fall into that situation where you just don't have an early-mid game impact, your late game is non-existent and passive not so much relevant anymore.
: After recently buffing her passive, I started to play eve in jg. I absolutely love her, I feel she can be built about 5 different ways (ap burst, hybrid sus, ad burst, dps, and ap tank) Out of these builds I favor her ap burst, and hybrid sustain (hextech gunblade is core). When I play evelynn as ap burst (this is Gold elo on live btw) I just melt people. She easily can skirm smite-w-e-q-q-q and usually 100 to 0 a squishy, especially after Ludens (which I rush). Then later on after you snowball (unless they all have super escapes) you can go into teamfights and ult the whole team, and just lay down the damage. Remember after every kill to reset your w, it gives you fantastic positioning. I think you may be under-valueing evelynn's w as a gap closer, combining it with the range on her invisibility she can catch So many people off guard. I also want to add that I gank with her similar to a shaco, even though she doesnt have that passive it become such a powerful gank if you hit with e on their back then use w to kite with them staying between them and their turret (Ofc laying down Q's). Short answer - I think as an ap burst jungler Eve is quite strong (Ludens is important), but she isnt as good IMO AD, I feel she has to burst and get out, kinda like rengar. Using her w resets like kat its so easy to pop an adc then zoom away. I feel she will be overshadowed by BC junglers though as they have an easier time in the tank meta Great Discussion :P
You know, i had quite a hefty post about why i think Eve is just meh, but i decided to be as short and as general as possible in hope not to deter Tl;DR people who will not even give it a chance because of the volume. I'm also glad you brought this up because i don't think we should ever put ELO on a table for a discussion, when trying to justify a champion's strength or weakness. Simply because game knowledge and mechanics are on way different levels and what passes in low ELO usually has a problem passing as viable in high ELO. I don't like the idea of having champions that work at some point, only to be replaced by their "better counterparts" somewhere along the line. If we're talking about Eve's ability to gank, Rengar, Nocturne or Shaco are quite better at every sense. Even Nidalee (she only needs one spear to kill you). _**What she lacks is the reason why she is a good pick for the team and as long as her role is not defined by her kit, we'll always have a problem with someone just doing a better job then her.**_ Since i'm on my smurf and leveling, i thought Eve was a good pick in order for me to learn and i've had pretty OK results with her, playing her both AD or AP but BECAUSE people just didn't give me enough credit. They ignore wards, positioning, waste a lot of spells for kills in which case i've got a green light to just smash them in return. However, this happens because they simply let me do it. What would happen if you would to encounter a team who knows how to deal with Eve? 1. Counter pick jungler: a tank or a better assassin 2. A champion with a Dash (to avoid her ganks) or a tank 3. Safe early game, you outfarm her anyway You see that it doesn't take much footwork to counter her while Rengar, Nocturne, Shaco or Nidalee can be quite forceful when ganking while Eve is more of an opportunistic ganker, which is exactly what i don't like.
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