: Testing Champ Mastery Levels 6 and 7
Two thoughts: 1. This feels like it's too easy. Getting to the highest mastery level shouldn't be attainable for the average player. Right now, I have level 5 mastery on several champs, and I SUCK on most of them. All I did was spam them for a while. Getting to level 7 should involve a lot more than having a couple good games. It should involve a consistent pattern of good games over a set period of time (i.e., 5 S- games in a four week period). I get that you want to make this accessible to people, but level 5 already feels really meaningless to someone who plays regularly. Making this actually difficult to attain will add a feeling of accomplishment to those who are willing to put the sweat equity in. PLUS, it gives you a way to reward people for hard work and dedication that isn't tied to rank. My feeling is that the highest mastery level for any given champ should basically require that you are a one trick pony with that champion. That's probably a little on the extreme side, but attaining it just won't mean very much unless it's very difficult to do. 2. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why on earth is Hextech crafting involved with this? I play mostly Quinn. I'm guessing that a lot of people gunning for high mastery levels only play a few champs. I also mostly play by myself. Which is also probably not that unusual for people seeking mastery of the game. Both of those things (as I understand the system) limit the mount of chests and essence I get. But even if essence was easy to get, what in blazes does it have to do with my mastery of a champion? It just feels like a very weird hoop to jump through that has nothing to do with actually being good at the champ. But again, maybe I'm missing something about the system that makes it related? EDIT: THIRD BONUS THOUGHT! I really like the S- game requirement to progress. That's exactly what I would expect in something like this. Number of games shouldn't matter past a certain point - excelling in a high percentage of your games should. That's why I suggest the time period idea; but a straight percentage could work too, maybe.
: Quinn's Passive is making her deal less damage
I'm not sure how this could actually be possible. Crit items will always increase your base auto attack damage. Harrier damage is applied on top of whatever your auto attack damage happens to be. Crit items don't interact with it in any way. Harrier's bonus damage can't crit. It'll always be the flat value of it's base damage + AD ratio. The auto attack that Harrier "rides" on can still crit though. So if you're auto normally does 100dmg, and a crit normally does 200dmg, attacking a target with Harrier with do 100+Harrier bonus, and critting a target with Harrier will do 200+Harrier bonus.
: PBE is a small community. If they enabled team builder all the time along with the other queues, the queue times would be horrendous-- on the order of a half an hour or more. Occasionally, Riot will enable Teambuilder and allow that to be the only queue available for a little while, but those are special occasions.
> [{quoted}](name=MungoGeri,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=4Rqn8A2t,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-14T22:26:50.598+0000) > > PBE is a small community. If they enabled team builder all the time along with the other queues, the queue times would be horrendous-- on the order of a half an hour or more. Occasionally, Riot will enable Teambuilder and allow that to be the only queue available for a little while, but those are special occasions. I get that. Seemed like it was available alongside the other modes for a long time, though. Seems like teambuilder would be a much, much better way to get into games than blind pick. I'd prefer they disable blind pick in favor of teambuilder, personally. It's better in every way, with the exception of longer queue times, which wouldn't an issue if blind pick was disabled. Just my opinion tho.
Rioter Comments
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Just wanted to drop by and say that I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the new blind. It adds INCREDIBLE satisfaction to her playstyle and kit. You actually feel like you're outplaying people again, not just out-statting them. I can't say enough good things about it.
Rioter Comments
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Repertoir, Thanks for your closing thoughts, and for all the work you've put into this update. Most of all, thanks for your communication with us - you've gone above and beyond, in my opinion. I wanted to give a few more impressions now that I've had a chance to play Quinn some more on the PBE. For clarity, I'm HideousZ on NA, Quinn main with something like 2,000 Quinn games. Things I like about the changes: -More Harrier procs. Weaving skillshots and autos is fun and is a good way to demonstrate mastery of the champion. -Her new ult. I'm not prepared to say I like it more than her old ult...I'll expand on that in a moment. But I do like the new one, in general. I still feel like the channel time is excessive, and I'm concerned that it might end up making her very binary (feast or famine), but zooming around the map is entertaining and impactful. One request: for a reason I can't quite pin down, she doesn't FEEL very fast, especially at rank one of ult. The first few times I used it I kept having to glance down at my movement speed because it didn't feel like i was actually moving faster than normal, when in fact my MS had almost doubled. I think this might be solved with just some more particles (speed lines streaming behind her) or maybe a couple tweaks to the model (Quinn's body stretched out more against the wind, Valor's wings angled back further, etc). It's a little thing, but I think it would add a lot to making the ult feel better. -Extreme kiting. More harrier procs means more W passive, which means crazy bursts of dueling/kiting speed. This is probably my favorite part of the rework. Things I don't like: -Her skill ceiling feels lower. This might be incorrect, but it's my impression. It feels like new Quinn is much less about optimizing the use of her kit than it is about buying items until you're too strong to stop. I see in your notes that's something you're going to be addressing. -Fewer options. Quinn feels much more straight forward now. No surprise ults, no clutch blinds, no careful timing of blind to block 2 autos then vaulting away to avoid 2 more, etc. Her kit has been streamlined, but it's also been simplified. That's not to say the things you took out should have stayed, necessarily - but it doesn't feel like you added much back in. -To clarify: you removed her ult, which not only provided a lot of surprise burst and 1v1 amplification, it also added options to her other abilities (E became a pure gapcloser or pure escape, Q was just different enough to have different optimal uses); removing the ult also removed her ability to "jump to lightspeed" when the situation called for it. Obviously you can still use the ult to move quickly now, but the channel means that you can't use it in nearly as many situations as before; you removed her blind, which had a great many uses outside of bullying top laners. What's been added that wasn't there before? The harrier proc on her Q. That's far from nothing, but it doesn't really come close to replacing all the options that her kit had before. Other than that, you've just amplified some of the things she already had. The vision reduction you mentioned on her Q would be interesting, especially vs. ranged enemies, so I'd love to see that come through. -Here's an example of what I'm getting at: Master Yi. He's fairly straight forward, but his abilities all have some interesting characteristics that give them a ton of hidden depth in the hands of a master. When Cowsep plays Yi, he's maximizing every bit of that depth - Alpha to dodge key abilities, split-second meditates to mitigate burst, maximizing use of his passive in combination with on-hit abilities and target selection, etc. Old Quinn's kit felt like it had the potential for a similar hidden depth in the hands of a master; I'm not currently seeing nearly as much of that in her new kit. -She just doesn't feel as fun to play. I'm not trying to say that old Quinn didn't need a rework; but due to the issues mentioned above, she just feels...bland. Actually, that's overstating - she's not bland, she's just blander than she used to be. And I know you're aware of that, you mentioned it in one of your notes. I guess I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring on it. It felt like old Quinn had much higher highs and much more ebb and flow to her play. New Quinn feels much more straightforward - there's no real guessing as to what you're going to do next. I feel like that could end up being a real issue down the road when people get accustomed to her new kit. I'm worried that she'll be much, much easier to play against, since she just doesn't have the pocket aces she used to. Things I'm on the fence about: -No more blind. I can see why this was removed. And I don't really have a good argument for keeping it. But losing it is pretty brutal for her matchup list. There was already a number of matchups where the blind wasn't super useful, but there was also a long list of matchups where the blind was pretty critical. It was also a major, major part of her ability to deal with enemy marksmen. Between losing the blind and losing her ult burst, I'm concerned that the list of people that I can reliably 1v1 when roaming or splitting is now a lot shorter. And I'm not sure where this loss of power gets made up for in her kit. On the other hand, Blind was always a tricky ability to use correctly, had a number of bugs and weird use cases, and as previously mentioned there's a lot of matchups where it was completely useless. -Her ult channel. I get why she needs it. But holy buckets does it feel bad. Ulting use to feel immediate, impactful and dangerous; now it feels really bland and limited. Flying fast is fun (though I think it could use a visual upgrade as I mentioned before); surprising people around the map is fun. But where ulting used to feel like "PUNCH IT, CHEWIE"; now it feels like "This is Quinn requesting clearance for takeoff. Tower do you read? Tower? ... tower please. Alright, folks, we're taxiing to the runway now, accelerating and ... there we go folks, we're finally having fun again, have some peanuts." By comparison, other ults with channels feel lot more like they're building up toward some enormous impact (Tahm, TF). Quinn's channel just doesn't have the same feel. And to stress - I'm talking pretty exclusively about FEEL here, not power. -Reliance on Harrier. I love Harrier. But I'm concerned that leaning on it too much will make Quinn much easier to counter. Both because it's an auto attack, and because it makes her very predictable. Right now, in matchups or situations where autoing isn't effective (while Withered, or vs. Pantheon, or while blinded, or a number of other situations), I can rely on my abilities to get damage out. If her power budget moves more to her autos through Harrier, all defensive items and abilities that deal with autos affect her a great deal more. Also, the big bright Harrier mark appearing over your opponent's head makes it pretty easy to predict what Quinn is gonna do next. That's definitely a needed weakness, but it'll be a bigger weakness now. Finally, right now it feels like her damage combo has been stretched out by a second or two. I talked about this in a previous post. But with proper timing, you could get out a large chunk of your power budget in about a second (wait for natural Harrier, proc, Q-E, proc). Now her combo requires at least one more auto attack, maybe two. All of which plays into making her more predictable and easier to avoid. TL;DR of all that: I like the new direction overall, and the spell-weaving playstyle that Harrier enables is fun. Most of my concerns can be summed up like this: Quinn's kit is simpler now, which makes her more binary to play. That's a problem because it makes her easier to play against, gives her fewer "clutch" moments and fewer pocket aces to whip out. It's also a problem because it doesn't feel as fun or exciting to play. That latter issue is my bigger concern, honestly, though solving the former issue would likely solve the latter. Final thought: can you tell me what Quinn's "Big Moments" look like in your mind? For her new kit, I mean. Right now, I'd say that Quinn's Big Moments are: Shock and Awe burst with ult, perfect timing with blind/Vault combo to win a 1v1, using Vault to escape over a wall. Maybe a couple others. But as you were redesigning Quinn, did you have any of those "Big Moments" in mind? I'm not talking about overall strengths, I'm more referring to those amazing highs that end up on highlight montages, that feel incredibly awesome to pull off. I can see some of that in Quinn's new kit, but not nearly as much as her old kit. So I'm curious to hear what you think, as I could very well be missing some things as I learn to play her in a new way.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Wanted to chime back in after trying her out on the PBE. So far, the changes feel really interesting. I'm gonna have to do some work rewiring my reflexes for her combos, but the additional passive procs are very strong. Tag Team is extremely strong. The channel is irritating, but that might just be because I'm not used to it. It hurts the most when you want to use it as an escape. If anything can be done to shorten the channel a bit, I for one would be happy :) I'm not sure I have enough insight into the new kit yet to even speculate on how that would affect her power budget though. Her auto attacks feel snappier. I can't put my finger on exactly what is different, but it's crisper. If I had to guess, it feels like you sped up her attack frame. But I'm not sure. Not having a blind really messed with me, but it's probably just something I'll need to get used to. I actually really don't like Q being an execute. Feels like it punishes you for opening with it. And it feels like you really want to open with it to get the snappiest combo off (Q, wait for passive, proc-e-proc) Again, these are EXTREMELY early impressions, so please just read this as an initial reaction not a thought-through criticism. I may come to love the execute. But here goes. On live right now, the most brutal combo (without using R, anyway) is to wait until your passive lands on your enemy, proc it, cast Q followed instantly by E so that your Vault and Blind hit at the same time, then immediately auto attack again to proc the Vault passive. If you're blocked by minions, you just subtract the Q from that formula and sneak it in whenever you can. If you time this whole thing right, you can even get a third passive to land shortly after you proc the E passive. On live, the combo is slowed down by a lot because you now need to wait for Q to land (also did you make Q's missile narrower? That threw me off a LOT lol). You don't want to follow up Q immediately with E anymore, or you'll waste a passive. So you cast it, and then you have to wait to really commit until it lands. You can maybe sneak in a regular auto while you wait for the passive to proc. THEN you can go in with your E. The problem is there's not really a good place for you to wait for your passive auto. I guess the optimal combo now might be to wait for passive harrier, proc, Vault, proc, Q, auto, proc. At the moment (again, early impression) it feels like this new combo is slow enough that I'm never going to actually burst anyone down with it. It feels like I can definitely do some serious burst damage, but there's such a big window for people to respond that it's not going to work out very often. TL;DR (or didn't explain very well lol): her damage combo has changed significantly, and initial impression is that it's clunkier and easier to avoid. Other thoughts: I'm not sure I understand the change to harrier. Are you wanting/anticipating Quinn's build to shift toward a more Crit focused build? Not that it's unheard of to build crit now, but it's more common to go CDR/ArPen. My initial reaction is that I'd love to see it stay the way it is now (it feels like it scales really well through the game as is), or have it scale off of something else, so you're not forced down the crit path. I feel like I'm not sure what Quinn's strength is now. I might be overthinking it. I can see that she's extremely mobile, and that's very powerful. But it also feels like she has dramatically less impact when she gets to where she's going. She doesn't have the insta-burst anymore to just fly into lane and dive on someone, and she doesn't have enough CC to really come in another way and lock somebody down. 1v1 I can see that she's just as strong if not stronger, but when it comes to splitting, roaming, ganking, and teamfighting, it feels like she has fewer options than before. Yeah, she can get there a lot faster and more often, but if doesn't really arrive with much of a bang. Which all leads to feeling like the only thing Quinn will be really good at is splitting - and even there she's going to be outclassed by a couple other options (I think). So I guess I'd like to hear the thought process there - I like the idea of an extremely mobile marksman, and I can see that you've achieved that with Quinn, but I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to do when I get to where I'm going. Again, I might be overthinking this - she still has an extremely strong passive and can definitely dish out damage. It might just be that I'm used to have the Talon/Rengar esque ability to show up and blow up. Anyway, that's more than enough for now. Overall I think the changes are good and heading in a really interesting direction. My concerns at this point are pretty minimal, and there's a good chance that just playing her some more will alleviate them. Thumbs up Repertoir :)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gronckle,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=PE1LJTOM,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T19:39:18.750+0000) > > Eh...I mean, Skystrike fits in well now, but tbh I'd MUCH rather have that power budget spent elsewhere (can I has blind back?) than what sounds like a low damage ability that will be weird to use optimally. > > Obv will have to wait and see for sure, just an initial reaction. I'm not really in favor of bringing the blind back in return for having Skystrike removed. Blind is a finicky mechanic and it probably costs more in terms of power budget. Someone mentioned having more ways to attach harrier, or maybe buffing W a bit to make it more interactive, which I think are options that suit Quinn better.
Yeah after I gave this some more thought I can agree. If I had my way, blind would still be in, but I understand the change. I'd take the removal of skystrike in exchange for a shorter channel on Tag Team though. Not sure if that's really a fair tradeoff, as Tag Team is pretty crazy strong at this point.
: > Will her ult cost mana? Yes, but the cost goes down to 0 by rank 3. > how are her AD ratios? Probably somewhat comparable to Live, with Harrier potentially doing a bit less per proc in the early game and a bit more in the late game. > will she be able to stay a "assasin-type" champion? If your definition of "assassin-type" is duelist, less so. If your definition of "assassin-type" is more about burst damage, yes.
Can you expand on your assassin comment here? Maybe we're using the words differently, but these changes read to me like we're going away from burst assassin and more toward a duelist... If she can't R-E-Q-R to delete someone anymore, where is the burst coming from? If she's more reliant on whittling down her opponent and setting up her passive combos, isn't that more like what a duelist does? Or are you meaning that duelists auto attack each other to death, and since Quinn used to have a blind that's not her thing anymore? She's now more reliant on an assassin-ish burst pattern from her passive procs?
: Currently 70/100/130% _Total_ Movement Speed. Total Movement Speed differs from other standard MS bonuses in that it multiplies off all your other MS bonuses. Essentially, Total Movement Speed is more powerful than Bonus Movement Speed because it multiplies off your other buffs and items. A Quinn with Homeguard and Tag Team, for example, can reach the middle of the map from her fountain before Homeguard falls off.
The thing I like about this the most is that I won't have to feel as bad about not taking teleport anymore.
: We are aiming for her to be optimal as a mid laner, since we feel that this is where Tag Team becomes most interesting/valuable for her team. I know this will be quite a departure for players that played her mostly top lane, but we are hoping you still get to do more of the Quinn stuff you enjoyed doing from top lane in mid lane, except for some of the fighter bullying.
Ok. I enjoy playing Quinn mid, as well, though it's definitely a trickier lane in some ways. Is it purely Tag Team that's driving her to mid, in your opinion? It sounds like her dueling potential might be going up a bit now that both Q and E mark targets - will I be able to pull of crazy 4-passive combos with proper timing?
: > Well then why not just get rid of Skystrike? I was actually in favor of this approach for quite some time, but we thought it was something that players would be attached to, and that keeping it around at low power budget would be best. > Also, question on the side, does W still work while using Tag Team? Yeah, W still works during Tag Team without cancelling Tag Team. You can also cast Q and E from Tag Team, but they will remove you from Tag Team.
Eh...I mean, Skystrike fits in well now, but tbh I'd MUCH rather have that power budget spent elsewhere (can I has blind back?) than what sounds like a low damage ability that will be weird to use optimally. Obv will have to wait and see for sure, just an initial reaction.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Can you talk a bit about how this will affect her as a solo laner? I know you stated in the past that you wanted to solidify her viability as a solo laner, but it wasn't really mentioned in your notes above. Removing the blind makes me a bit nervous, as that was rather key in some matchups. The other Q changes do sound interesting, though. Anyway, I'd just be interested to hear what your intention with this changes is toward making her work better/worse/overall the same in a solo lane.

Gronckle

Level 30 (PBE)
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