: Sure, accept with Banshees veil now giving MR and AP and Adaptive Helm reducing damage from mages that deal consistent damage from the same spell over and over (AKA Cass and Syndra like you mentioned) he isnt going to have any more or less trouble with those champions if he chose to build those than if he chose to build a MR + Mana item. Also his mana ratios on his abilities are quite a bit lower than they used to be, only 3% on his Q 1% on his W and 2% on his E where it used to be 4%, 2.5% and 2% (and even before that 6.5%, 4.5% and 3%) because of his current AP and Mana ratios he would actually get more damage by building the new banshees than by building the item i proposed. The new banshees would give him 31.5 damage on Q 14 on W and 21 on E while 400 mana would only give him 12,4, and 8 respectively. So it gives him barely any damage. Its certainly a more defensive choice, but banshees would still be a better option vs AP for him
But the difference between a Mana/MR _tank_ item, and an AP/MR _mage_ item is that the Mana/MR item is designed with the sole intention of making champions tankier. It is not to make them do more damage, and as such the MR remains relatively low on such items. On live the highest MR "offense" item is Abyssal Scepter which has only 60 AP because of how much MR it has. You are actively choosing to nerf your damage in choosing to buy the item. When you take into consideration an item like Banshee's Veil which has always has a monstrous amount of MR (until now at least) it is functioning as a tank item. You're giving yourself so much added durability that most champions should have trouble killing you. Having Mana on an item with 70, or 80 MR is an invitation for those few champions with Mana scaling to come in and reap the benefits. I understand Ryze is sitting at an abysmal win rate right now, but I really don't think he deserves buffs. He needs _another_ rework that will _actually_ fix his issues. Step #1 towards that is removing his mana scaling on abilities completely, but making his passive increase his maximum mana exponentially (like I'm talking 600 AP = 200% extra Mana from all sources.) This would mean an AP build would increase his potential maximum AP to ~1500 with a Seraph's Embrace, and if he wanted to do massive amounts of damage he would have to shed the concept of being this super durable sustain mage. Every other champion has to choose between damage, or durability. Ryze should too.
: Xayah Ultimate is not healthy.
Having played as and against her I don't feel her ultimate is overbearing at all. She is a champion that is incredibly hard to duel, but it isn't because of her ultimate. It's the feather mechanic. Between her passive, and Bladecaller every single auto-attack has ~1.5 AD scaling which is a trait only shared by Draven. The tradeoff that Draven has to make for such high damage is an inability to ever stand still. Not only can Xayah get away with not moving around a lot, but she actually does more damage if she doesn't. Playing against her the most frustrating thing that has happened is watching her kite you like pre-nerf Kalista because she just has so much utility built into her kit that you can never catch her alone. Perhaps it is a necessary strength to have that utility, but not paired with such high damage just from auto-attacking. Xayah is outputting 6-item Caitlyn levels of damage at only 3-4 items. She truly puts every single other ADC to shame, and that's ok as long as she doesn't turn into the aforementioned Fizz, and Fiora who require the entire enemy team to take down.
: I actually main Kassadin and I want an MR item for my Kassadin mana build XP I dont see how a MR mana item would be any more broken on Ryze vs an ap champ than the Armor MR items are on him vs AD champs.
Because throughout all of Ryze's iterations the one constant theme is that the champions that beat him are long range, and function as a mage, or similarly to a mage. While yes you could argue that Jhin, and Varus fit that bill more often than not it's champions like Syndra, and Cassiopeia. Those who can throw out damage without putting themselves in immediate danger. You'll almost never find someone picking a teamfight oriented champion like Kennen into him, and assassins like Talon, or Zed are even rarer. By giving Ryze an item that gives him MR, and Mana you're giving him every stat he could ever need against his "counters," and that is a dangerous thing to do when he is already a champion balanced on a razor's edge.
: I can see that you never played Aatrox before. How about you go play Aatrox and talk about it. Tank Aatrox is not even good.
I can see that you've never read red posts before. How about you go read the intent behind the changes, and then talk about it. It doesn't matter if tank Aatrox is good it is Riot's decision to balance him in whatever way they see fit.
: Can we get some MR + Mana items with the tank update?
#You can't fool us you filthy Ryze main. No, but seriously Ryze is the reason we don't have any. Banshee's Veil used to build out of Catalyst, and gave Health, Mana, and Magic Resistance, but it was too strong on Ryze. They ended up taking the mana off of Banshee's Veil, and increasing the Health, but increased the mana every other tank item gave by a little. Similarly to Will of the Ancients, and Vladimir before the item was removed MR, and Mana on a single item is something that can never be "good" for 99% of the champions in the game without being "broken" on Ryze.
: Galio Passive Make it scale with ability power and not attack damage
I personally like the idea. It's not like you're going to see any full AD Galio running around, but it does make say for example... Mercurial Scimitar a feasible purchase. The number of items that give both AD, and MR are few enough that it's of little concern.
: Stoneborn is only good early game. It falls off mid-game and is questionable late game. MF's E is a 14s cd at lv 1. Even with CDR it's about 12-13s. This is what limits Stoneborn MF until she can pick up a Mallet. Sure you can just hold onto your E until a fight, but your AD only has those 4 seconds. MF will function better with DFT/Fervor/Thunder Lord's. Even if your AD can follow up on every single one of your E's that's only about 1-2 AA's every 12-14s. With Ashe it is much easier to apply. You refresh the mark with every AA and/or ability. This makes early trades very favorable for you. You don't need to have too much HP outside of just buying Cleaver, Mallet, Sight Stone, and w/e you choose to buy. Attack speed/damage is not a big concern because you're support first and a damage dealer last. Unless you're far better at AD than your AD then you go a generic AD build. Your job is to slow and stun for your team. This would be a generic build for Stoneborn Ashe: {{item:3069}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3009}} {{item:3085}} {{item:2045}} Talisman to escape/engage. Cleaver/Mallet for the combo of slow and shredding for your allies. Runnan's to wave clear/apply slows on multiple enemies. Sight Stone because you need it and should always have it as a support. Boots can be whatever you want. You can always opt to switch out Runann's/Frozen/Support item for other items. I don't want to bring you down or anything. I'm just saying it takes too much effort to play Stoneborn MF and by the time you reach that point where it starts to work it won't be effective anymore.
Eh, buying Frozen Mallet on Ashe is such a waste because you already have it's passive. I'd honestly rather buy a Warmog's on her than a Frozen Mallet. The main reason I think MF is better than Ashe in this scenario is MF has a way to rapidly apply Black Cleaver stacks, and Ashe does not if she isn't building large amounts of attack speed. MF is also already played within the support role, and one of the few weaknesses to it are that she has no good keystone choices. Do you go Deathfire, or Thunderlord's anyway when you're not even building a lot of damage? Do you go Fervor for extra strength in extended fights? She can't use any of the defensive masteries, so that tree is a waste. Windspeaker's is out of the question, and Stormraider's doesnt do anything for her because the only way for her to proc it is to ult (and you don't want to run when you're channeling ult.) Stoneborn Pact gives her a feasible solution to a small problem without changing the way she plays at all. As for damage it's not something that most supports prioritize, but it is what made MF be played as a support. The zoning her ult provides rivaled that of Zyra, and she also had a way to deal with Zyra's plants. I don't think we're going to see a large mass of people taking ADC's into the support role, but if they did I could see MF being the first pick, Ashe being second, and _maybe_ Ezreal third (but then Ezreal would have to rush Rylai's) I don't think you should underestimate the late game scaling of the mastery though, because 2.5% max HP is a _lot._ At worst it matches the healing of a lifesteal item. At 2775 (MF at level 18 with Rylai's + Black Cleaver) it heals for 74.375 over 2 seconds, or ~37 per second. Add in Ruby Sightstone, HP per level Seals, 50 HP from the defense tree, and perhaps Knight's Vow, or Redemption you end up with 3941 HP, which is 102.275 HP over 2 seconds, or ~51 HP per second. Even if it doesn't stack that's a _lot_ of HP, and it's not just limited to one person either. _Anyone_ who attacks the target gets it. If it scales with bonus healing that means Redemption becomes an even better buy.
: It just depends on how well {{champion:21}} 's synergy is with AA heavy champs. {{champion:22}} is a better example because of her ult and already built in slow that has no cost. I just see {{champion:21}} having too hard of a time having synergy with her laner using Stoneborn. With {{champion:22}} you could pair her with: {{champion:15}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:81}} (pretty much almost anyone at this point) You'd get amazing early trades just due to the enemy taking a conventional support. You'd out heal in almost every trade unless the enemy just out trades you with pure burst damage, or they have a shield/heal that is just on a relatively low cool down.
The reason I mentioned MF is because her E is already such a large slow, but also because of Stoneborn Pact scaling off of the user's HP it would do really well on her. Even support MF buys Black Cleaver, and she could also buy Rylai's to pad that even more while also making every ability in her kit a movement impairing ability. None of the other ADCs can really make use of it in the same way simply because they won't be buying a lot of HP. You're right that Ashe applies it the easiest, but she also can't really buy HP without becoming completely useless past early-mid game.
: Stoneborn Pact Thoughts
Are you saying that MF support just got buffed? ;)
Rioter Comments
: Will Garen E bug be fixed by next URF?
It's not bugged, and it has already been nerfed in URF. If you genuinely believe it is bugged perhaps you should go read the skill description.
: Currently the build for aatrox is actually nothing near that. BotRK is currently a garbage tier item for the gold efficiency. The build for most players is Tiamat --> Ninja Tabi/Mercs --> finish Ravenous --> Phantom Dancer --> Deadmans/Spirit Visage --> Maw --> Last item is very situational Unless you are going Crittrox, or Aptrox then, I have no idea what the build is for those as of right now.
Even that isn't close to being glass cannon though. Perhaps the term has lost it's meaning over the years, but 10 years ago glass cannon meant you literally had 0 defensive stats whatsoever, but your damage was so high that you could burst anything instantly if your opponent was caught out by you.
: Darius passive scales off level
Stats continue to scale after level 18, so it might make sense if that was the case.
: Yeah but the thing is, the community of Aatrox players don't like to play him as a tank even remotely. What attracts people to Aatrox is being a glass cannon melee ADC. It's what he has always been best at. His kit changes should better suit those desires. His lore doesn't even remotely suggest he is a tank. He is a bloodthirsty killer that changes the tides of battle by shitstomping through the battlefield and inspiring allies.
Frankly the community of Aatrox players is so small it's pretty much irrelevant in the topic of discussion. Aatrox's core build _when he was played_ was BotRK -> Randuins _every single game_. That isn't even close to "glass cannon" and if that's what people want well... Guess what, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Master Yi... they all exist. They're working with a kit that is so broken it can never be truly balanced, and doing the best they can to bring it in line with the rest of the roster. There have been very small nerfs to his damage, and there have only been buffs to his tanky-ness. That's a win for any other champion in the game, which makes it a win for Aatrox. He's not special just because "the community" thinks of him in a certain way. I think the best way to build Karma is as a tank. Does that mean that Riot is going to make Karma's shields and heals on herself bigger to satisfy my tank Karma needs? As for the theme of the champion, personally I think that instead of giving Aatrox attack speed, and range his ultimate should be an AoE attack speed increase for anyone within the cast range. As you said he's a champion about inspiring allies. Why does he not have any abilities that increase his allies strength? While we're at it let's make Dark Flight leave a trail behind it that increases allied champion movespeed, and have Blades of Torment shred armor and decrease the slow to 20%.
: Never, once in all my games of Aatrox. Have i ever gone "Man do I want Black Cleaver!" . . .Or even wanted CDR. Infact I actively never cared, just like I wouldn't think that for Jax. He's an attack speed bruiser, not a shitty darius.
It doesn't matter what you want, how you play the champion, or how you think while playing the champion. Your thought process of the champion is in line with the old abandoned useless version of the champion. People made the same complaint when Darius' passive was changed from magic damage to physical damage "It's easier to itemize against his damage now," "We don't even want Black Cleaver why are you pushing us towards that build path." Guess what? Now Black Cleaver is first item bought in 97% of games on Darius. If Riot wants Aatrox to be a drain tank, then Aatrox is going to be a drain tank. That means he's going to be buying a lot of HP, CDR, and Lifesteal to sustain himself.
: Agreed, revert E back, makes Rageblade less punishing to build (it's next to required to activate blood rush in reasonable amount of time), I suppose they made it physical because they assumed DD was a mandatory buy already? Alternative to higher base AS, make Blood Rush refresh on monster damage just like it does for champs. W's heal loses all meaning once you get DD or Gunblade, so weak. Gonna be in Blood Price alot of the time now.
More likely they made the change to physical so that his synergy with Black Cleaver skyrockets through the roof. On live he's a hard champion to itemize CDR without completely shooting yourself in the foot somewhere along the way by wasting stats. This iteration appears to be more about casting spells than auto-attacking. With that in mind I would actually _prefer_ that E dealt physical damage, and scaled with AD because it means I can get first item Black Cleaver every game. He's never really been an on-hit kind of champion. He generally bought BotRK, and including his W that's 2 on-hit passives ticking to be augmented by Rageblade. Rageblade should feel like a choice just as it does for Vi, or Vayne. You're losing something to gain access to a better on-hit passive. Plus his R still scales with AP, so it's not completely wasted there. At first glance I would think his ideal setup is 9x AD Marks, 9x Armor Seals, 6x CDR/level Glyphs, 3x MR/level Glyphs, 3x Attack Speed Quints. 9/0/21 taking Grasp, and building Black Cleaver, Caulfield's Hammer -> Titanic Hydra -> Death's Dance as your core items.
: So a full combo activates it? That'd definitely make him good for diving.
Pretty sure that's the exact point of each ability only granting 20%. Maybe they learned from their mistakes of letting Rengar have his Ferocity fully charged 24/7.
: Hey, I'm an Aatrox main on NA. I have over 140k mastery points on him. Some constructive criticism, I feel like his passive was hard nerfed. I don't care about the revive passive, nor does most of the community. You could ask just about anyone from the Aatrox subreddit, they would all say you could remove it entirely in order to provide power elsewhere. The attackspeed steroid being removed from just being passive, turning into a thing that only lasts 4 seconds will severely hurt him. To counter, all you have to do now is walk away... Maybe a slight MS buff to enable him to get in range, similar to Vlad's blood rush? Q changes arent the worst. The damage increase is nice, but the cooldown was really the problem of old Q. Aatrox has always been designed to be a diver, but he never has had enough mobility/survivablity once he is actually in a teamfight. W Thirst changes were a bit weird. I feel like the 3x below 50% was pretty iconic, but I can understand the changes if he was too strong from internal tests. I feel like it might need a numbers change eventually on PBE. W Price changes are nice, I think that this works out to be pretty balanced. Personally, I found the blood prices of his abilities pretty annoying when I first started playing him, but as I grew accustomed to it, it wasnt something to actually worry about, I hardly ever "Killed myself" with my abilities. E changes are okay. I'm on edge about them due to Ninja Tabi being something that people build against Aatrox anyways, so he will do even less damage after they are fully built. All in all i think something needs to be changed in the form of a buff, I appreciate the fact that Aatrox is officially on Riot's Radar now, but some of these changes (Mostly the passive) seem too weak. Sincerely, Äatrox (NA)
They already said he's intended to be built as more of a drain tank (bruiser at best.) Lowering HP costs across the board contributes to that philosophy. Hitting each of his abilities _once_ on a squishy at _any point in the game_ will do half of their HP without even auto-attacking once. If he is going to have this massive increase to tanky-ness because his "I'm constantly killing myself" theme is gone then an increase in damage too would make him _the_ untouchable god inevitably waiting to be nerfed.
: Possibly, possibly not. The 10 ban system is currently only in pro-play, and while it has increased diversity, it is also with people who are much more team oriented and focused. Most people on URF just want to play the same OP champion every game. Whether the 10 ban system can change that, depends on the player base.
At the very least a 10-ban system means that every player gets to get rid of what they decide is "the most overpowered champion." Making everything random is no where near a solution to the fact that some champions are stronger than others, because the only thing it does is make every game one-sided. Games are often over before they even begin because one team got 3 S-Tier champions, and the other team didn't get any. When I get to pick my champion I get to accept responsibility for the fact that the enemy team has better champions than mine because I made the decision to make it that way. If I'm going to lose I at least get to do it on a champion I find fun whether I'm winning or losing. There is nothing fun about spending 10 minutes going through queue and champion select only to find out in the loading screen that the next 15 minutes of my life are wasted because I'm going to get stomped by the enemy Jax, Sona, Hecarim, Garen, and Zilean just because my team has Rammus, Volibear, Irelia, Mundo, and Zed. Regardless of whether we're going to keep URF all random or not there are a few things that are absolutely essential to making sure both teams are relatively even in terms of strength. ______ - Re-enable bans. Giving bans back means that players get to say "I really don't feel like playing against Jax this game." ______ - Unlock all champions for anyone playing ARURF. Players who make secondary accounts for the sole purpose of ARURF should not be rewarded by guaranteeing they get a top-tier pick every game. ______ - Fix item cooldowns. If items like Edge of Night, and Zhonyas are going to have reduced cooldowns because their secondary effects are active components, then a sweep needs to be done across the board for items of which secondary effects are passive components. See: Guardian Angel, Sterak's Gage, Maw of Malmortius, etc. ______ - Implement minimum-cooldowns. It's no secret that among the best champions in URF most of them are champions that have resets built into their kit already. Abilities like Diana R, Kha'zix Q, Kha'zix E, Katarina E, Master Yi Q, Garen E, etc. effectively have no cooldown between the 80% CDR, and the reset that is built into the ability. This was done to Zilean because otherwise he would have been able to infinite chain bombs, and revives. ______ - Make all abilities begin their cooldown _after_ the effect is used. Abilities like Riven Q, Lux E, Gragas Q, etc. can all be used in quick succession back to back if you don't re-activate the ability instantly. ______ - Make "charge up" abilities _only_ charge off of the user's spells, and not nearby spells. The only two abilities I can think of off the top of my head that use this system are Maokai's passive, and Kassadin's E. Both of which are extremely overbearing unless you have a direct counter for that champion. ______
: Low spec mode enabling itself
It did this earlier, and crashed my computer in doing so. I bought my PC back in July last year, and it has been able to run everything I throw at it on max settings. I haven't had a single issue, and now that low-spec enables itself it just dies and won't do anything until I restart it.
Rioter Comments
: AR URF was never meant to "fix" OP champions. Like you said, it's impossible. AR URF was meant to add variety and it was heavily demanded.
> [{quoted}](name=Catman,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=mRYdUAXi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-13T00:30:01.902+0000) > > AR URF was never meant to "fix" OP champions. Like you said, it's impossible. AR URF was meant to add variety and it was heavily demanded. I'd love to see that list of names because every single person I've talked to has said that AR makes it worse. There is nothing "better" about being forced onto a shitty champion while the enemy team has the same OP picks. When you think you got lucky with Sona, turns out the enemy team has Ezreal, Jayce, and Nidalee. It's sad that you see more variety in normal URF than ARURF because people just reroll, or dodge until they get a champion they deem good enough. It gets to the point that the average player is willing to play ANYTHING just to get in a game because otherwise they have to sit in champion select for another 15 minutes, and then that "anything" turns out to be the worst possible champion into the enemy's team comp.
: ARURF - Early Surrender
I've actually had games "over" by even 10 minutes. They were still going to pad people's KDA's, but everyone new they were over. Definitely would like an early surrender.
: [URF] Give us Homeguard from the beginning of the game.
I'd say Homeguard after 3 minutes. Too many bad levels ones just get recalled, and then teleport back. This way if you decide to fight level one, and lose too much HP it's still a punishment.
: Katarina is way over powerd.
Today I learned AP is the only statistic that matters in a mage-assassin versus mage-assassin matchup. Could it be perhaps she purchased items like Sorcerer's Shoes, Abyssal Scepter, and Void Staff while you just stacked AP? It's not common to have over 600 AP in a 6 item build on mages right now.
: CC ? With MF? Sounds great. Especially that shitty ass 28-60% slow which is barely enough to kite him for 1mm. And even if you focus or cc him it doesn't bring shit because in the time while your team kills Garen they get killed by the rest of his team. Oh did I even mention there is a summoner spell which he can use when you try to kite him? {{summoner:4}} Thinking before typing. That aint hard, I guess ?
So you expect to be able to walk away with your life without using Flash when he Flashes on you? Also, there's not a lot of information in your screenshot, but from what I can see you have lost all 11 towers, taken 0. You have died 15 times, killed 3. The score is 28 to 56. Remind me again how you seem to think after that level of feeding you're going to survive a champion that is 3+ levels higher, with a full build while you're sitting on 2 items? Yes, Garen is _strong._ No, Garen is not _broken._ If everything people like you fed was "broken" Riot would be nerfing the entire roster of champions. You know who else is just as strong, if not stronger than Garen? Evelynn, and Shaco.
: Add to that the constant Youmuu's usage, 20% MS extra constantly is unkite-able for adc.
Problem #1 is you're building any champion like an ADC in URF. There's a reason they added the +50% damage to crits, and double attack speed scaling.
: are you literally retarded? Karthus? Broken? No. Not even close. Everyone can literally run out of his Q since everyone has super boosted ms, so there is already a major part of his damage gone. Most champs have dashes or blinks so even if you manage to hit a Q doesn't matter because they have a dash on a 2 second cd and will be long gone before you catch up to them from the first one. Unless you mean his ult, that has a 8 second longer cd than zhonyas, meaning that all you have to do to counter karthus is buy a zhonyas because it will always be up for every ult unless for some reason you burn it early.
You're right, being able to do 500-2000 damage to every person on the map every 30 seconds is completely reasonable. Yes, it is a bit unfair for Karthus that anyone who buys Edge of Night can avoid being hit by any Karthus ultimate ever. Good. Abilities with no counterplay don't belong at the top of the damage chart every single game. You can dodge a Kassadin's E and R, you can dodge Katarina's passive and R, you can dodge Jax's E, Nautilus Q, and E, Soraka Q and E, Galio Q and E. You can't dodge an ability that targets everyone on your team whether you are dead or not. But yea, let's pretend that Karthus is weak because he can have multiple instances of Wall of Pain active at the same time. Let's pretend he's weak because he has an AoE machine gun that can crit on less than a 1 second cooldown. Forget he can keep his E on forever, so you can never trade with him in melee range. He's weak. It really sucks that Edge of Night makes it so Karthus can't suicide into 5 people, and press R to win the fight. Now he has to actually play the game like everyone else, What bullshit. When 100% of your opponents are buying a Banshee's Veil, Edge of Night, or Zhonya's you're playing a broken champion.
: Disable Edge of night in URF
If it was a mistake, it's a welcomed mistake. It helps deal with the long-standing broken K-trio champions in Karthus, Kassadin, and Katarina
: Because people, very vocally I might add, got bored. You had to ban the exact same people, and you had the exact same teams every game. So not only were you losing to power picks, it was also boring because it was probably the 20th time that day you fought the exact same comp.
The game mode gets stale regardless of whether it is AR or not. The only difference is now people are frustrated because they have to deal with the OP picks _and_ they don't get to play what they want. All it needed was 10 bans, and maybe a rotating ban schedule for the game mode, so that certain champions couldn't be picked on certain days. Now we have the same problem of facing OP BS every game because of all the "ARURF only" accounts, and we're punished for owning all the champions. All this is on PBE! You can't exactly go and make a PBE account whenever you want to, so the number of "ARURF only" acounts here is far lower than it will be on live. You will have people who went ahead weeks in advance setting up an account to guarantee they play what they want to play. If we have to keep it random, then all champions need to be unlocked for everyone while playing. It's not fair that Little Billy 109 can buy Amumu, Garen, Poppy, Sivir, Soraka, Alistar, Evelynn, Jax, Nasus, Veigar, and Xin Zhao and get to play them in more than half their games while the average player is getting shafted with Yasuo, Master Yi, Elise, Draven, etc. in most of their games. Also note that of the champions I just listed they are all 1350 IP or lower, so it doesn't exactly take much to unlock them all.
: ARURF is a terrible idea and should never be allowed to make it to live servers again.
The only difference between ARURF, and URF is that in ARURF you're guaranteed to get fucked by the Jax, Sona, and Alistar on the enemy team because you don't get to pick Zed, Nidalee, and Ezreal to have an equally broken team comp. You end up with Yasuo, Udyr, Elise, Draven, and Anivia. It doesn't help that people are able to make "ARURF" accounts that only own the 20 most broken champions, so that even including free champion rotation they have a 66% chance to get something BS. I never thought I'd see the day you were actually punished for being a paying customer, and buying all the champions.
: So the biggest thing I'm getting from all of this is that Graves is no longer a marksman. So much for that I guess. Top lane anyone? As long as it's not Gnar, he'll probably wreck all those other melee kids.
Graves now is a lot like Lucian before all the nerfs, where a Q-AA combo would take almost half your HP. I believe Graves Q also does damage twice now, once in the AoE initially and then exploding for more damage after a short delay. He's definitely still a "Marksman" that's for sure. His core identity is still the same, gun-slinging outlaw who blows stuff up if it gets too close. If you're using your spells properly there is virtually 0 downtime in which you have to "reload" and fuck even if reloading was a huge problem, he gets free armor and mr to face tank while he does reload for god sakes!
: Maybe a new name for the passive, or slightly altered. Destiny is TF's ultimate.
I believe that may be intentional with the new Graves/TF lore! *SPOILER* They don't hate each other anymore!
: Also, how do you expect him to CS like this, if he can't auto attack without passive charges?
This isn't a concern whatsoever, Graves has 3 autos before he has to sit and reload (including E) which means if you're last hitting, you can kill the 3 melee minions, wait for reload, and then just Q the casters if its THAT big a problem last hitting them.
: uhhh this sounds way to cluncky to play without screwing something up. Couldn't you just made grave have a melee from when reloading so it doesn't fuck up his cs? You know bash some skull in with his new destiny.
That actually wouldn't be a bad idea, however after playing him I would say that if he did have any form of melee autoattack it would have to do like 50% of his total AD. His burst potential is absolutely absurd, if you're caught by QaaR you better be prepared with an Exhaust or a Heal.
: How does his passive work with no bullets? Just a lower AD 425 auto attack? And how do you mean his stuff is reduced "substantially" from attack speed? Similar to Cait but reversed, with a much higher base attack speed? Overall, I'm very confused about how his passive works. I'm also worried that with the leaked items, the ADC meta will shift to a very strong early game casting focused meta, and without a way to deal with longer ranged ADCs in lane Graves will end up worthless in this meta. I've been very happy with the ADC reworks thus far, but this once concerns me immensely. He feels nerfed like crazy in lane versus ranged champs, and has way too much power budget in his burst, making him useless as a source of DPS. He feels more like a top laner to me at this point, I don't see him functioning well in a duo lane versus a ranged champ as is. He just seems too... Situational. I'm not even sure what to think overall, but I'm definitely confused and concerned.
After 2 autoattacks (or 3 with E) you are required to reload your gun. I was afraid this would be problematic, but it's really not. It opens up 2 very different playstyles for Graves, you can either buy a bunch of Attack Speed and get the reload time to almost nothing, or you can go full on Caster Graves, so that you can weave your spells during your reload time.
: His point blank auto attacks also knockback minions and monsters....
My first game on him was actually in the jungle and it felt so nice. He's Graves so his ganks are basically non existent, but his ability to clear camps early is so nice. He'll definitely be one of the ADs who abuse the Krug/Gromp start every single game, alongside Caitlyn and Quinn. Also that baby-knockback on monsters is absolutely beautiful when trying to kill Scuttle.

Gabe Utsecks

Level 30 (PBE)
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