: I like the new champ so far, however I believe his flamethrower ultimate is way too strong in its current version. I tried it on full build against 4 teemo dummies in practise mode and it hit everyone of them for 4k damage (would be even higher on 5 target hits). While that was true damage because dummies have 0 armor even on an average of 33% damage reduction those numbers seem too high to me.
The average reduction for late game is not 33%, there's no champion that has 30 armor at level 18. Around 50% (100 armor) is more like it. Also, if a late game full crit Aphelios manages to get Infernum for a teamfight and hits 4 people with his ultimate, he deserves to one shot them. While he's holding that weapon he functions like an MF or Kata- just don't group up until he switches. Just like you don't 1v1 him when he's got the Crescendum and he ults you.
: Ok so after doing some testing, one thing i would like to see removed from his kit is how when an ability causes you to auto attack with a secondary weapon it can crit. I do believe allowing it to function as an auto would be fine, but applying crit makes it incredibly strong, especially his ult. I've found that it just too much damage, especially when you proc it off of his flamethrower.
That's literally the entire point of the champion. His abilities have incredibly low scaling on their own, landing those followup crits is the only thing that allows him to transition into the late game. Imagine if MF's Q and R didn't crit.
: Riot has already confirmed [they are looking into Conqueror nerfs](https://twitter.com/MarkYetter/status/1201676538837553152).
I endlessly admire your tenacity to reply to almost every post, but dude/dudette, I think this kind of post is just not worth your time. This isn't even feedback, it's "this too strong in every way rito nerf pl0x", no analysis, no justification, and I'd like to posit that the PBE forums should set the bar for feedback a bit higher than that. Keep up the good work <3
: Yeah, the only thing special about the ult marks is they do a little more damage. The other marks behave the same way; the secondary targets only take damage from the followup attacks that applied the marks, and if you have runaan's it will hit a couple nearby targets as well. It's actually pretty hard to apply marks to multiple people with the Crescendum sentry or Severum's Onslaught, so the only way you would usually see multiple non-ult marks is with Infernum's ability. In which case, the damage the secondary targets take is probably from the Infernum AoE.
Huh, i could've sworn that the marks damage secondary targets as well, but it was probably hurricane. The real issue here is Infernum and Calibrum getting gutted when used in Onslaught, i really hope they see this and fix it. Mechanically, this and Crescendum actually *decreasing* your attack speed, even from melee range, when your overall attack speed is very high, and i think he's good for live. If they fix a few visual issues as well (his in game model, and Infernum cones being too noisy, I'd rather them be a single wave rather than arrays of bullets) i think he'll be *perfect*.
: I am pretty sure that a single-target mark applied by Onslaught does full damage, yes. I've tested it a bunch of times. The attack does the same amount of damage as if you applied the mark with another ability, and it adds up with the tooltip. But if you mark several targets with Onslaught, and attack one of them, you can see that the bonus damage from the other marks is 25%. That's why it's so weird. You'd think either all of the marks would be reduced damage or none of them would. Just to clarify, because the way multiple marks work is kind of confusing, when you select one of the marked targets, it does consume all the nearby marks, but it doesn't apply their damage to the targets that they're attached to - it _steals_ the marks and puts their damage onto the one target you selected. There's a subtle animation that shows this but I think pretty much all of us misunderstand how it works at first. And yeah, gravitum does slow the correct amount during Onslaught. At least on the scuttle crab, I'll test it on champs too.
Btw i tested and confirmed that Infernum hits with Incendiary Onslaught indeed do absolutely negligible damage to targets in the AoE cone. The ability itself can do upwards of 500 damage to the primary target and secondary targets hit by the Infernum blasts take like 22 damage a bunch of times, adding up to 100 damage if even that. The reduction absolutely cripples any aoe this skill might do. > But if you mark several targets with Onslaught, and attack one of them, you can see that the bonus damage from the other marks is 25%. Oh that's even weirder than i thought lol. > Just to clarify, because the way multiple marks work is kind of confusing, when you select one of the marked targets, it does consume all the nearby marks, but it doesn't apply their damage to the targets that they're attached to - it steals the marks and puts their damage onto the one target you selected. There's a subtle animation that shows this but I think pretty much all of us misunderstand how it works at first. You know what, i noticed the little projectiles bouncing around but i thought this happened only with the special R marks! Are you sure this is the behaviour for all kinds of marks? I'm positive that I've seen secondary targets take a bit of damage too for being near a marked target who i procced the mark on. What you wrote is in line with what I've seen happen with R marks, but are you saying that even with normal marks, applying more than one and proccing them increases the damage the primary target takes? Cause again, I'm sure this is the R mark behaviour (and you can see all the little attacks bounce around on the marked targets), but i thought simple marks just detonated on the targets they are attached to without bouncing.
: The tooltip says the primary target takes 110% attack damage, and other targets take 100% damage, but I think it's just worded poorly and the targets actually are supposed to take 100% of that 110% ad... In other words, infernum shots do 110% of your AD. Secondary targets take the given percentage of that damage, not a percentage of AD. This is how it works at all levels. Eventually the secondary targets take the same damage as the primary targets (100% of the infernum damage).
Agreed, the secondary targets take 100% of the damage the primary target takes (so 110% AD), not 100% of your AD.
: Attacks from Severum Q do typically deal less damage than normal basic attacks, but the tooltip also says "applies on-hit effects at 25% damage" and I think that's the problem. This makes sense for item on-hits. But because the effects of Aphelios' offhand followup attacks are also sometimes counted as on-hits, it cuts the damage from some of those as well, which feels really bad. So in this case, the Infernum splash damage during onslaught is counted as an "on-hit" and being cut to 25%. This feels really bad. Aphelios is supposed to be all about the interaction between his main and offhand weapon, and Infernum does basically nothing in this pair. Gravitum's followup onhit doesn't do damage so there's no problem. Crescendum's followup onhit gives stacks of boomerangs, which thankfully are not being cut to 25% damage. They do the same damage as boomerang stacks gained by any other method. No problem there either. What's really weird is that it can *also* cut the damage of Calibrum's marks. The calibrum followup attacks during onslaught apply Mark as an on-hit debuff. Typically when you attack a marked target, it consumes the mark to do a certain amount of damage, then it also consumes any marks on nearby targets, each of which adds that same amount of damage. When you apply a mark to one target with Onslaught, it does the proper amount of damage. But if you strafe around and hit several targets during Onslaught to apply marks to all of them, the damage from the extra marks from nearby targets IS cut to 25%. This is a lot more nitpicky than the infernum issue, but it's still a problem.
> What's really weird is that it can also cut the damage of Calibrum's marks. The calibrum followup attacks during onslaught apply Mark as an on-hit debuff. Typically when you attack a marked target, it consumes the mark to do a certain amount of damage, then it also consumes any marks on nearby targets, each of which adds that same amount of damage. **When you apply a mark to one target with Onslaught, it does the proper amount of damage. But if you strafe around and hit several targets during Onslaught to apply marks to all of them, the damage from the extra marks from nearby targets IS cut to 25%. This is a lot more nitpicky than the infernum issue, but it's still a problem.** Are you sure that the mark applied to a single target when using Precision Onslaught (Severum Q with Calibrum in the offhand) does full damage? These marks do a full auto attack's worth of damage + the mark damage to the main target, and only the mark damage to all other marked targets nearby. If Precision Onslaught applies even Calibrum marks at 25% damage (which is DEFINITELY weird), it seems likely that even a single mark would do reduced damage. However this might be hard to notice, as the primary attack would go from doing 140% AD (100% from the hit and 40% from the mark) to 110% (since the mark does only 25%), which is a much smaller difference than seeing the entire shot do 1/4th of its damage. Overall, I'm definitely against Onslaught applying other weapon effects at 25% effectiveness- half the point of ever using that ability is that it mixes in hits from other weapons. Why use it with Infernum and Calibrum at all if it nukes their unique functionality? > Gravitum's followup onhit doesn't do damage so there's no problem. Is Gravitum's slow also reduced from 30% to 7.5%? I've attacked targets with Binding Onslaught many times and they get slowed for sure, but to be completely honest between Onslaught's bonus MS, the ability to freely move while attacking and the target receiving ANY amount of slow, I never noticed if it slows for the proper amount.
: Aphelios' Qs interaction with ammo system
Ammo does not use the same mechanics as mana.
: I recorded myself using Onslaught to see the damage per shot, and I noticed the first dealing double. so 20+70%bAD at level 1.. I meant bonus Attack Speed. The graph is linear while it's a floor function in actuality. [Image of the graph](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/646374919512260609/650202495594790912/unknown.png) When you look at the tooltip. the amount of shots is accurate, but the expected total damage follows the linear graph. This is a function of the percent of bonus Attack Speed. So like how wit's end gives 50%, that's 0.5 in the x-axis.
That's fascinating. So if I understand this correctly, according to your data, the _actual_ damage is really a step function because it only increases when you get enough bAS to fire an extra shot? Also, do you think the first attack doing double damage is intended behavior or not? Does it apply on-hits twice?
: Dodgers need to be stopped
Thing is, you can't stop someone from closing the client... and other than putting frequent dodgers on a timer, I'm not sure what else can be done that isn't overly punishing for the actual testers that might want to leave occasionally. I've had the PBE client yeet me and crash several times at random moments the last few days. Fortunately I mostly mess around in the Practice Tool so it's not a big deal for anyone, but imagine if the unstable client got people banned.
: Is it possible for the tooltip damage for Onslaught to reflect the actual damage? The damage calculation is really, 10/15/20/25/30 +0.35bAD per shot, with the first shot dealing double damage. While the tooltip damage is a linear graph that is always less than the actual damage (60/90/120/150/180+2.1bAD) + bAS(30/45/60/75/90 +1.05bAD) The two show the same value when the bAS is 0.33, 0.66, 1, etc., but otherwise the damage shown by the tooltip is less than the real damage by around one shot. Unless the tooltip just says how much damage each shot does, while showing how many shots you do. Edit: Can the tooltip damage reflect the real full damage or the damage per shot?
_(I write this assuming you meant to write bAS instead of bAD.)_ I have also noticed that Onslaught behaves very differently in action compared to what the tooltip says. According to the tooltip, unless you've built AS disproportionately higher than AD, you always lose about 30-40% DPS by using it- and yet in practice I notice a much smaller difference. I'm also 99% sure that the tooltip only updates at ~30% AS increments; if the actual damage updates in finer increments. it's very likely that the tooltip often is misleading. PS: I had no idea that the first attack does double damage! Is it confirmed?
: I do agree that jinx's rockets are pretty stupid as well come late game, but her rockets just deal her auto damage as AoE. With Infernum you can possibly oneshot anyone standing behind your initial target. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it basically means anyone standing behind the person you hit will get hit by multiple Infernum waves. Go into practice tool. Put three dummies next to each other to proc hurricane, and put one dummy behind them. you'll notice that not only did the dummy in the back basically get hit for two autos worth of damage, the dummies that are next to each other seem to get hit by the AoE from hurricane as well(could be a bug), which also results in them taking way more damage than they should. I made an example [here](https://youtu.be/oY8DVrcyCJw) As you can see, all targets took around 1300 damage from one AA when I'm supposed to be dealing only around 900 per AA. each dummy effectively took an AA and a half's worth of damage from one AA. Also if you look at the video in my original post, you'll see how I was able to abuse this synergy with Calibrum, Infernum, and Hurricane. Doubts on it being a visual bug. As for Gravitum. I do agree that applying AA damage on top of already slowing and rooting would be a bit too much, and that's why I suggested that the AA damage would only do 40-50% of its damage. If it still feels too much even after that, they could look to lower the root duration or the slow a bit to balance it out. I personally would prefer having more ability synergy for making cool plays over having just raw stats, That's just me though.
> I do agree that jinx's rockets are pretty stupid as well come late game, but her rockets just deal her auto damage as AoE. With Infernum you can possibly oneshot anyone standing behind your initial target. I understand what you mean perfectly, my point is that Jinx does it too. With her it's just people standing in between two explosions where they overlap (if close enough to one another), whereas with Aphelios the AoEs overlap on targets further back. Keep in mind that Hurricane's additional bolts do 40% damage and are affected by crit. So if your normal attack hits target A, a Hurricane bolt hits target B, and both the Infernum cones overlap on target C further behind, yes, target C will take about 140% of one attack's worth of damage, or about one and a half as you said. Looking at both your videos, I don't see anything weird happening (Infernum just looks fucking chaotic visually, which I kinda dislike, I'd prefer a single clean firewave instead of bullet hell). * On your first video, you mark a faraway target with Incendiary Moonshot. Then, you proc the mark, causing Infernum to fire against the target (just for clarity, note that Infernum's attacks do 110% AD damage and proccing Calibrum marks adds about 40% AD on top). When that attack hits the target, it also hits the two targets behind it thanks to the flame cone. At the same time, you fire two additional bolts because of Hurricane; these two bolts target two enemies within a certain radius from the main target, that are the closest to you. In this case, the only suitable targets were the dummies right behind the main target. The attacks hit them for 40% of the damage of the main attack and, as Hurricane applies onhits, they also produce weaker flame cones behind them. This means that a target can be hit by one or several flame cones plus Hurricane bolts depending on positioning. * On your second video, the exact same thing happens, you've just placed the dummies so close to one another that the flame cones are wide enough to hit dummies standing next to each other; that's why EVERY dummy (even the front row) took the exact same damage. Look at it in slow motion, it's a bit hard to see. Basically, if Aphelios is using Infernum, has Hurricane and your team is sitting in autoattack range clumped up all together, the people at the back of the group are pretty much fucked, yep. > As for Gravitum. I do agree that applying AA damage on top of already slowing and rooting would be a bit too much, and that's why I suggested that the AA damage would only do 40-50% of its damage. If it still feels too much even after that, they could look to lower the root duration or the slow a bit to balance it out. I personally would prefer having more ability synergy for making cool plays over having just raw stats, That's just me though. Thing is, reducing the damage from the followup attacks so much would basically make this followup only useful for marking people with Calibrum or stacking up Crescendum (as Severum and Infernum pretty much rely on raw damage to be useful)- also, I think it would compete too much with Duskwave (infernum Q) and Calibrum's marks in terms of usage. Right now you have a single long-range followup attack that does high damage, or a barrage of close-range follow-up attacks. Adding weak followup attacks to Gravitum would make it function like a shitty blend between the two, global follow up attacks in an AoE. As for the root duration, it's just one second as it is, and the slow is a decaying 30%, I don't think there's much room for nerfs in those numbers. :/ Gravitum is very useful in setting up other weapons overall, and the root is a godsent in so many cases; the Q I feel is the most undewhelming is actually Duskwave. It's slow, short, dangerous to use, I very rarely find the opportunity to use it without it biting me in the foot.
: So, I've spent a few hours with this champ, and I have to say I agree with what everyone else is saying. The overall look of the champ doesn't really fit with his splash art. I suggest making his model darker with some darker purple as well, but not so much that he looks like a void champ. The face and the hair especially could use some tweaking. His ability animations for the most part look great, especially the AA animations(GIVE THE PERSON WHO MADE THEM A RAISE), but his walking animation feels...weird to me. I don't know if it's just me, but it doesn't feel like how a character like this should walk. The idle animations when he stops moving are by far the worst. They look way too exaggerated and flamboyant I guess ? he moves like a jojo character if that makes any sense. Now, on to gameplay. First of all I'm really impressed with this champion. his different weapons and abilities and how they synergize with each other feels so satisfying to play with, and it feels like you always have a tool in your kit to use depending on the situation, which I love. The thing that concerns me the most is his interactions with {{item:3085}}. There is absolutely no reason to go any other zeal Item but {{item:3085}}. The amount of benefits it gives him is way better than any other item. -If you AA a marked target with Calibrum you will AA two other targets with {{item:3085}} near the marked target even if the other two targets were not marked. This to me feels like a bug or an unintended feature if anything. -Being able to slow and root three targets with one AA instead of three also feels unintended. Having this makes using your ult with the Gravitum less appealing when you can just AA a couple of times and get the AoE CC all the same. -The worst one by far is Infernum. The amount of AoE burst this weapon has is already pretty crazy, but paired with {{item:3085}} all hell breaks loose...literally. firing three Infernum AA and each one of them applying that AoE wave of flame is not okay. It's simply way too much damage and it is NOT balanced. It also makes Infernum reach considerably farther than intended if targets are standing behind each other. -An example [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIuw69TbbsY&feature=youtu.be) using Calibrum and Infernum with {{item:3085}} to demonstrate just how broken this item is on Aphelios. There is a bit of lag due to ping, but I hope it gets my point across. Keep in mind that each one of those dummies had 3k+ HP and 200 Armor. -Also I think his Crescendum ult should give more stacks based on how many people it hits. 3 Stacks +1 per champ hit. -One last concern I have is Gravitum. This weapon does not feel like an equal to the other four. By this I don't mean that it's weak or useless in anyway, in fact it's very strong if used properly with other weapons, and that right there is my dilemma. Gravitum can only be "Used" by the other weapons, but it can't actually use the other weapons on its own. Each one of the other four weapons use the "Off-Hand" weapons with their Qs with varying levels of synergy, but the Gravitum is the only weapon that does not use the "Off-Hand" weapon in anyway, which makes the weapon feel like it was only designed to be an "Off-Hand utility weapon" and not an actual equal to the other four. It leads to the weapon being used only as an "Off-Hand" and nothing else. A simple way to fix this would be to make it so that when enemies are rooted by Gravitum Q, instead of dealing magic damage, it would attack all enemies rooted with the "Off-Hand" weapon, but dealing reduced damage (50-40% only of the actual AA damage). This would add so much more synergy to his kit while solving the Gravitum issue. I do hope my concerns reach the dev team and that they would be addressed. Overall I'm really loving this champion, and I'm looking forward to playing him on live without the PBE lag. Note: WHY IS HIS DANCE ANIMATION NOT A MICHAEL JACKSON MOONWALK!?!? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} The sound he makes when he switches weapons sounds like a facebook notification. I kept tabbing out to my browser because of it. Just a minor detail that probably only effects me but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
> If you AA a marked target with Calibrum you will AA two other targets with near the marked target even if the other two targets were not marked. This to me feels like a bug or an unintended feature if anything. I've noticed a similar weird interaction with Hurricane and Calibrum but I think it's a visual bug, if anything. Hurricane firing at two additional targets near your primary AA target is, obviously, its intended behavior. > Being able to slow and root three targets with one AA instead of three also feels unintended. Having this makes using your ult with the Gravitum less appealing when you can just AA a couple of times and get the AoE CC all the same. While that may be true, ulti slows for far more (99% vs normal 30%), from much farther away, and it can catch more people. Still, yeah, I probably wouldn't use the Gravitum R on the enemy team if they were all in range of my AAs and I had hurricane. > The worst one by far is Infernum. The amount of AoE burst this weapon has is already pretty crazy, but paired with all hell breaks loose...literally. firing three Infernum AA and each one of them applying that AoE wave of flame is not okay. It's simply way too much damage and it is NOT balanced. It also makes Infernum reach considerably farther than intended if targets are standing behind each other. When I first tested this, I thought exactly the same. "God damn, 100-110% AD in AOEs on every hit?! And I can multiply this with Hurricane? This is broken!" Then I remembered that Jinx can literally do the _exact same_, with the exact same scaling (110%), she just has more range and less AoE on those attacks, Jinx can just do it infinitely if she can keep her mana up. > Also I think his Crescendum ult should give more stacks based on how many people it hits. 3 Stacks +1 per champ hit. I think it currently gives _exactly_ 3 stacks +1 per champ hit, i.e. up to a maximum of 8 if you hit all 5 people. It's true that it's a very weak 5-man ulti (compared to a 5-man Infernum, for instance) but I'm pretty sure the whole point of it is to be more optimal to use it against 1-3 people to prepare Crescendum for dueling. > concerns about Gravitum not using other weapons I also was surprised by this, it felt a little empty on paper, but in practice I found that the CC is what makes it lead into other weapons. It's the only weapon that has CC, so by definition it can setup your other weapons without needing to use them directly. Of course I'm not against the root firing an actual auto on top (tho possibly too strong and too similar with Calibrum Q), but Gravitum definitely has a ton of implicit synergy. Also I find myself using it as my mainhand quite often to kite or chase- Aphelios sucks at catching people that got away from him, but in these situations Gravitum (especially paired with Calibrum) is a godsent, I can slow and root fleeing people from a screen away.
: alphy kinda buggy?
1. is "alphy" Aphelios? 2. Is this testing against turrets? Cause you do know that the "if AP much higher than AD, autos use AP instead" mechanic works *specifically* against turrets, right? Building 6 hats will make your autos absolutely delete towers but they'll do negligible damage against everything else, unless you somehow gain access to AP on-hit scaling. Some champions have it innately in their kits (Teemo, Morde, Kayle, Varus), and you can also build a Nashor's Tooth. Aphelios does not have passive ap scaling on his autos. The AP scalings in his entire kit are on his Calibrum Q, Gravitum Q, Infernum Q, Severum Q (the movement speed, not the damage) the sentry Q's attacks and all his Rs. Unless you built 5 hats and a Tooth and you still only did physical damage with autos, then yeah it's a bug.
: Post it [here](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/zOKjvnlh-aphelios-pbe-thread) instead. Every new champion, skin, game mode and other big content has their own bug and/or feedback thread which can be found as a sticky thread in one of the subboards. New champion bug feedback threads can be found as a sticky in [Bugs](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs), whereas skin and chroma bug & feedback threads can be found in [Feature Feedback](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback). Keep in mind that at the beginning of the cycle, the threads may not be there yet. In this case it's often better to wait until they are, to prevent your feedback from losing visibility. It is recommended to place bugs and feedback there only: the chances of Rioters reading your feedback is much higher that way, while keeping the boards cleaner at the same time.
Yep, I posted a comment there compounding my thoughts for every weapon. Thank you :)
: No secondary fire from Q or Ult stack Rageblade. This is especially notable on Calibrum, since its follow up attacks interrupt the normal auto-attack chain. On-hit effects are working fine, except for Calibrum follow up attacks, those proc on-hit effects twice.
I've also been noticing some weird behavior with Calibrum mark and Runaan's Hurricane. Sometimes Hurricane does nothing, sometimes it does a proper second attack on a nearby target (haven't confirmed if it only hits other marked targets or anyone), and I THINK i've sometimes seen a double Infernum proc on a single target?
: Aphelios PBE Thread
I discussed one of the other points in a separate thread before I saw this one, please forgive. Here's my two cents- important parts in bold: 1. **Calibrum**: a) Pew pew feels great. b) I didn't expect it, but I actually like how the tradeoff between projectile speed and ridiculous range feels with its Q! c) **I still don't understand when do I wanna ult with Calibrum :/** Part of it is that I can't tell from the tooltip- does the bonus flat damage from the ult stack for every champion hit? Do I wanna ult snipe that one random guy that got away, or do I ult 5 people and nuke the backline mage? 2. **Severum**: a) Sustain is high enough to be worth using, despite its low range and no fancy stuff. b) **Q scaling with attackspeed is interesting and a cool balancing tool, but in the late game you lose a LOT of dps for using it** (even with over 2.5 AS). Sure, it can do well over 1000 damage, but when every auto crits for 600 that number suddenly feels way less impressive. 3. **Gravitum**: a) Auto attacks with this feel unreasonably satisfying. _BVVVVVV. BVVVVV._ b) I thought not involving the off hand in the Q would feel bad, but actually it DOES involve it by holding the enemy in place for you to swap and guarantee fancy combos. 4. **Infernum**: a) What this thing can do to a teamfight in the late game is enough to put it in the MF-Jinx "you call this AoE? I'll show you AoE" territory. b) **The fire waves feel SUPER busy and confusing.** I'd much rather see something like Kayle's waves or Vi's shockwaves rather than arrays of little particles turning my screen into bullet hell. I like that they're visible cause their damage cannot be ignored, I just don't like that they're individual little particles that look so similar to the main attack. I made the mistake of putting down an Infernum Sentry before I swapped to Infernum for a teamfight, I couldn't even tell where I was, if I was attacking, where were my attacks going etc. A single wave (and circles, for the R) would be MUCH preferred. 5. **Crescendum**: a) The little glaives are adorable. <3 b) **When you get high attackspeed, this loses a lot of its unique nature as a melee high single-target DPS weapon.** The glaives 'sit' on the target too long, but move so fast overall, that autos with Crescendum around 2.5 attackspeed feel like regular autos with any other weapon, just potentially beefier if you've got temporary ones active. That means that meleeing with it loses its incentive, and attacking from range with it is almost as good as other weapons. Is this an oversight, or is Crescendum intended to be more suited for more raw AD builds and behave much more "normal" with high AS? (more utility out of meleeing enemies with lower attackspeed, +%AD scales better with raw AD?) c) please clamp sentry cast range so I don't walk into Riven's face to place it if I click too far.
Rioter Comments
: Aphelios: Hot Take!
> Severum's healing on Damage is 8%-25% of damage dealt with that gun (including off-hand effects). I feel like this may be a little too much healing for someone intended to be an Marksman, especially since most other marksmen start with only 3% lifesteal if the start with Doran's Blade. Perhaps it should be lowered a little bit so he doesn't out-sustain other laners. Maybe nerfing it to 5%-20% would be a bit more fair. Even though it does have limited usage, It I feel like the potency of the heal is extremely good. You can't always rely on the heal, however, since you may not have the gun, so it should be stronger than average, especially late game. I disagree. Aphelioses sustain with Severum is high, yes, but it's also extremely gated and once you use it up, you likely won't get it again before level 6. His base range (bar Calibrum) is also rather short, putting him in range of many dangerous abilities as an exceptionally squishy marksman with ZERO direct escape options (and 3 subpar ones, via Gravitum hit > Q, R > Q or Severum Q for the bonus MS). At levels 1-4 I heal for about 7-8 HP per attack on average with Severum. To match a basic healing pot (150 HP heal), I would need to attack 22 times with it, which would take about 28 seconds of straight autoattacking. If I can auto minions from close range for that long without getting punished, I'd say I deserve my 150 HP. > When using an ability, a gun's off-hand effect does not use up any ammo. I think this can be rather powerful considering how large of an effect the off-hand gun can have. I believe having the off-hand's ammo be consumed would make him a little bit more balanced, so he cant keep his Severum healing infinetly while cycling through his other guns. I think that's one of his most amazing aspects, complete weapon independence. Making one weapon's ability cost ammo from both weapons, first of all would be extremely punishing in terms of resources (even 10 ammo on the mainhand hurts a lot, I can't afford to spam even a single Calibrum Q) and secondly, even if it cost 5 ammo or so on the secondary, it'd create this "passive cycling" effect where you'd have to track both weapons changing over time, and I think that your off-hand, that you meticulously saved for that specific situation you predicted, changing under your nose just because you used your MAINHAND Q a bit too much would feel absolutely horrible in action. I've had my mainchand change unexpectedly because I used Q with less than 10 ammo without thinking more than once, having to track that for both weapons would be simply unreasonable. And also, as I said, saving an off-hand because you know you'll need it later is very skill-expressive IMO. If I save Infernum to nuke the upcoming teamfight and go through the pain of waveclearing with Gravitum, I shouldn't be punished by randomly losing Infernum ammo. > Infernum seems to be rather overtuned with how it works, as it applies the effect's from other guns in an AOE (and as stated above, it does not use up the ammo). Perhaps having your attack speed be a lot slower while using it would help, much like Jinx with her rockets. This way you can still have a large AOE attack, along with more damage and AOE spells, but you sacrifice attack speed. You seem to be referring to the Infernum Q, not the auto attacks. Keep in mind that this ability has a very low range; also, the most overpowered weapon to shoot with Infernum's Q would, in my opinion, be Infernum itself, for the overlapping AoEs a la Jinx rockets with Runaan's, which is by definition not available. Also, keep in mind that you only get a few of these Qs before Infernum rotates out. You seem to be missing the main point of his kit: **the entire tradeoff Aphelios has to make when using a certain weapon is lacking the effects of the other 4.** If you put penalties on the 2-3 weapons that you think are the "strongest" (they're literally entirely situational), suddenly the player will want to avoid them entirely. You're punished for using Infernum via the opportunity cost of not using a weapon with more range, more attackspeed, more sustain or CC. Many of your comments basically showcase how Aphelios is SITUATIONALLY stronger than other similar champions, but you severely downplay the fact that that only happens for 1/5th of the time, and the more he abuses a weapon, the quicker it goes away. Yes, with Calibrum and Gravitum he chases better than Ashe. With Crescendum and Severum he duels nearly as well as Kai'Sa. With Infernum and Gravitum he teamfights better than Sivir. But he literally gets these perfect dual combinations **4%** of the time, and he literally has to beeline towards the ideal duel or teamfight or kiteable target when he gets them, lest he wastes half his bullets on minion waves. I'm not arguing that Aphelios is strong or weak overall, it's way too early for that. But his circumstancial power spikes can't be looked at in isolation ("oh look how strong Infernum is for teamfights") because for 3/5ths of the time he's just okay at it (Crescendum, Severum and Gravitum) and 1/5th of the time he's absolutely pathetic (Crescendum). And that's the theme with everything he does. Yes, he _can_ theoretically be broken at any given thing, but sometimes you're also stuck with Calibrum and Infernum against an angry Jax. :p
: Aphelios Gravitum Slow bugged or wrong ability descriptions
I'm pretty sure there's a hard floor for movespeed in league, meaning that it cannot go below a certain number (unless you stun or root them, obviously). I thought it was at 120 MS, maybe it's at 112, but **no matter how strong the slow**, it'll never go below that. The near instant, irregular decay of the 30% slow from the Gravitum cannon might very well be a bug tho.
: I kinda understood what you mean and I agree. The passive healing is good, the 2 dashes also good (even before with longer cd and 1 dash) but the ult ... i like the champion fear (which i wanted when i looked at the spotlight and facepalmed when i saw he can fear minions ONLY, but not champs...)you are almost taking a core part away from Aatrox. Why would you have to get a kill to revive... how come champs like Anivia, Zillean Zac can have their revive .... can't they make it a passive with a timer on the revive like zac. That would be better.
Because champions like Anivia and Zac get one revive every 5 minutes and they take about 5 seconds to revive without being able to move at all, and that's all their passive does. Zil also revives himself or an ally and it doesn't take 5 seconds, but that's literally what his entire ultimate does; it doesn't give him a ton of AD, a ton of movement speed, a ton of healing and a partial reset to its duration. Aatrox doesn't need an AoE champion fear and he never _had_ an AoE fear, it'd be great ofc but also OP- he's a juggernaut focused almost entirely on damage. Urgot's R fears champions and he still has to get a kill with it, and it arguably gives him much less raw power than Aatrox R. World Ender having a guaranteed revive (or a fear) would mean that all the useful things it gives would be reduced to nothing. And personally I much prefer having a risky revive and no champion fear if it means I'm getting a resetting 30% AD + 70% healing + 100% movespeed buff with it. Aatrox is supposed to be a drain tank with tremendous damage, the enemies either dodge his Qs or get crushed. His R is all that allows him to perform that role. Without it he's just Rhaast with Qs that can crit for more damage. With his R, he's an angel of war that can decimate entire battlefields. Also if you're good with the champion you won't have any issue getting the revive. I play on the PBE with 160 ping and I had zero issues activating my R smartly in order to secure my revive immediately and safely. Have you seen Redmercy's video where he activated R from far away in order to dash into the teamfight? Yeah, never do that, it's idiotic. Get into the fight normally and pop your R only when you need to turn the tide of battle. The enemy team will instantly start focusing you, you smack them with as many Qs as you can and if your team manages to kill one of the targets, you gain the revive, ult resets and you can literally go ham on the enemy team without having ANYTHING to fear (more kills means more ulti and even if you die, you'll revive). Have you seen all the people that whine about old Aatrox's thing being diving into wars and turning the tides with extreme violence? His R is exactly that. The more he kills, the stronger he becomes. Before the first kill he's really powerful but he must play carefully; after the first kill he can go ham; after the second, the teamfight is already over cause if 5 people couldn't shut him down without his revive before he murdered them, then 3 definitely cannot.
Rioter Comments
: I approve with everything you said but would like to add something to the visual point. aside from the too bright red color scheme Aatrox's new model is too skinny and lacks a lot of details. old {{champion:266}} has very cool armor.. it feels detailed and the spikes and leg armor look great. new one on the other hand looks too skinny and his armor looks like it was quick drawn. in the splash art he looks like he can level a mountain but in the game u feel like he shouldn't physically be able to lift his sword. that combined with his double wielding makes him look incredibly weak. not the menace he should be. a giant sealed angry god shouldn't be as thin as {{champion:4}} and as brighter than {{champion:122}} cape imo
> that combined with his double wielding makes him look incredibly weak. not the menace he should be. On the contrary. One-handing a greatsword makes it look like it's weightless. The old Aatrox didn't look like he was holding a sword, with all that attackspeed his weapon felt lighter than Fiora's rapier. There is a reason why some weapons are heavy, and if the wielder is incredibly strong they don't just swing them around like an idiot, **they get a heavier weapon.** Aatrox's sword is himself, which means it's appropriately weighted for his strength and can carry deadly momentum instead of just flopping all over the place. He _does_ wield it effortlessly, considering it's a greatsword. He uses it to thrust and he even changes the hand he holds it with mid-animation as he jumps in the air with it. I think that the new animations are not comparable to the old ones, and they definitely don't make him feel "weak" simply because he doesn't move like he's holding a toothpick.
: Aatrox Rework is great imo just needs a few things fixed
I REALLY hated the banner wings. They were badly animated, looked incapable of flight and made Aatrox look more like a towel rack instead of a demon of war. I think that the true demonic/angelic wings are much, much better looking and more intimidating instead of two useless flaps. The wings can be permanent as many people want that, but at least make them as they are now, just folded instead of open. A skilled warrior wouild never wear two useless capes attacked to sticks on his back, even though "I WEAR BANNERS ON MY BACK SO I AM A WARLORD" _could_ make sense as a notion, but not thematically.
Rioter Comments
: Sorry for late response, totally forgot about this @_@ I think its reasonable for some of Kha'zix evolves to not synergize with each other - infact having evolves that push and pull him towards different playstyles is key to having impactful and variant evolves. We are also fairly confident that the new R evolve occupies a very powerful spot as a map mobility / flanking evolve that will allow Kha'zix to approach fights in very interesting angles. Its not meant to be a "stand in the brush and ambush" but a "I can run through your entire jungle mostly invisible" There are some vids out already showing off what you can do with it.
It's ok! :3 I also talked with a loooooot of people about this and, well, maybe I underappreciated things a bit. With 40% CDR you can use Q just more than once per second, which is definitely more damage than before, yet more spaced out (= hence window for counterplay) and with R you can do some pretty sweet ganks and invades. And when combined with active R you can really do cool stuff with it and attack the unsuspecting enemies from impossible spots. Still, the latest nerf surprised me a bit - do you really think 1.25 seconds are enough for Kha to move through most "close together" brushes unseen? I haven't been home for a few days so my feeling is probably a bit "off", but I recall having slight difficulty even with 1.5s for certain brushes. Being revealed for a split second on the minimap when moving from brush to brush could totally ruin the effect. _If_ this is the case, would you consider buffing it again?
: Actually duskblade is the strongest single item out of the three, each of the others just add 40 damage to its true damage but it starts out with 90 by default, 107 with the mastery, and 150 with runes. Extra 40 isn't a huge amount considering the amount that's already there.
True, but it's a fact that that they all work better in conjunction. Duskblade gets more damage, and don't forget that Lethality itself has a very powerful self-synergy. You probably know that every additional point of armor you get gives you diminishing returns. Which means, when you have 40 armor, +1 armor = +2% dmg reduction _(numbers are totally arbitrary for the sake of the example)_ but at 100 armor, +1 armor = +0.05% dmg red. Which of course means that, for every additional point of armor you remove (e.g. Black Cleaver) or penetrate (Lethality), the % of increased damage you do **grows**. Bypassing 1 point of armor when the enemy has 101 armor will make you do 0.05% more damage, but bypassing 1 point of armor when the enemy has 41 armor will make you do 2% more damage. So for every point of Lethality that you buy, additional Lethality becomes _more and more_ worth buying, up to the point where the target effectively has 0 armor against you. And from there it's reversed: armor becomes increasingly efficient as you approach 0 from the _negative_ side, and Lethality becomes completely useless for 0 effective armor and below. So you see that buying 60 Lethality is not just 3 times better than buying 20 Lethality, it's actually much better, because every point of Lethality you buy makes subsequent points of Lethality more powerful, up until the point where you do true damage and then it stops.
: Precision gives 8.5 lethality and you can get 19 lethality from runes - more once they convert armor pen runes to lethality runes. That's like 88 lethality at level 18, and most squishies have less than that at level 18. We don't really need more than 60 lethality from items, but it would be nice to get another lethality item so that we can skip over ghostblade or EoN if we don't want one of those. As-is the buildpath will probably end up quite stale.
That is true, however I still feel like it's too restrictive... there could be a few "secondary" Lethality items that give like 10 L and more AD or more CDR perhaps. Right now I feel like I have to always build these 3 - Duskblade is weaker without the other 2... they definitely work better in conjunction :/
: Lethality and assassin items feedback
I just think we should have more than 3 items available... basically right now all AD assassins build either all 3 or just the 2 (they sometimes skip Edge of Night) and then they build random AD fighter items like Hydra etc. I wish we had like 5-6 options. Right now we can accumulate only 60 Lethality :/
: I don't have a question specifically but i do have some mental ooze that's been spilling around in my head for a bit. Honestly, I 100% love what you're doing with him, and, to be honest, outside of the big 4, his changes are the biggest of the bunch. Between his evolution diversity and itemization changes, his potential is pretty damn near limitless, The khazix main subreddit has been buzzing with theory crafting on various builds and evolution paths as well as multiple lanes and roles. He's so much more flexible now, but he's still tied down by his isolation mechanic, which keeps him from straying into jack of all trades territory. I still think there's some things to be concerned about, his ability to make cross map movements literally undetected was a little disturbing to be honest, but you already hit his ult uptime both passively and actively to keep him from doing that. which is great. I think that little quarter second of reprieve will keep aware players in the know of where is or where he's going if he slips up. The other thing that's frightening me a bit is the fact that his synergy with all the "when unseen/in brush gain on hit effect" is really crazy. We have: Greenfather, Fresh Blood, Duskblade, AD scaling passive, the stealth uptime on his R further increasing his reasons to juke and run through brush, Fervor giving AD (though i'm not nearly as concerned about this) He's got a lot of power being stacked on those onhits, to the point where the push to reduce his burst window was kind of nullified, in that he just gets that same nuke through his passive(s) instead of his Q. I would watch that, at least a little bit, because I think it's got potential to be an abuse case, and I'd hate to see him enter pick/ban when he hits live because he's running through half the jungle completely unseen and popping out of stealth to Rengar your AD in half a second. With all that out of the way, I have to ask; would you be averse to him being viable as a fighter/bruiser? I've seen some theorycraft of a bruiser kha'zix with Q-W toplane with frozen mallet, cleaver, and tank items that's meant to be a sort of inescapable duelist splitpusher. If any of these eccentric builds surfaced as a viable way to play him, would you refocus him towards his AD Assassin roots? or are you okay with these build paths as long as they focus around him leveraging his Isolation mechanic to make them work (and thereby failing to some degree if he isn't using isolation the way it's intended)? Sorry for the long post, I got kind of wrapped up, but i sincerely feel like this rework is one of the most important of the batch simply because of how much potential there is in his flexibility post-rework. PS: this is just a nitpick and not really important, but is there any way you can fix the fact that his run animations don't work outside of homeguard? i really like his different animations when he upgrades boots/gets hasted and i'd be sad to see them go. PPS: I just read my replies and found out you guys are already putting a fix in, sorry i jumped the gun a little with that. Thanks again for the fantastic work you did with my favorite champion, I was stressing a little since i heard about the plans to change him, but i was excited too, I'm glad you could show up big time with this rework. Great Job!
Hi :) I see you also gave very detailed feedback on Kha, and you sound like you main him, just like me. However your feedback is the complete opposite of mine, which is extremely interesting, so do you mind elaborating a bit? You seem to find his new Q and R evolutions quite powerful and flexible for most combat scenarios, whereas I feel the exact opposite- and since Whale hasn't replied to my comment yet with his own insights, I would be extremely interested to hear some other thoughts. Riot Whale mentioned that most people seem to find Kha very strong after the changes and that left me wondering, maybe I'm missing the obvious here? So, allow me to ask: What do you find strong about the new evolutions? How do you make them work? Do you really feel Kha is in a good/better spot with the changes? If you are interested in my concerns, in order to better understand what exactly I'm confused about, [here they are.](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/auEY7jEU-assassins-mini-updates-discussion?comment=00510000000000000000) I'd love to hear some comments on this and maybe perhaps help shift my perspective a bit, if it's not too much trouble for you :)
: Meh im bad at making sentence in english ...... When i said that im with you it was only concerning your opinion on those changes for Kha'Zix. > I truly think that riot should consider more negative feedback. It just feel like they don't want to hear them. This sentence was my personal opinion about negativ feedback and Riot perception about them and im trully sorry if it felt like I was putting you in this opinion too. Like really sorry. > So to clarify, me giving negative impact is me trying to improve the game I love, not shit-talk it. That's what it's all about i can't be more agree mate. But you know too many time i've saw some constructive negative feedback like the first one you made for Kha ignored by Riot. And so I still think riot should consider them more. One last time Im sorry I made you waste your time to defend yourself It's my entire fault. {{item:3070}}
Oh please, it's quite alright, no need to apologize! I'm sick and I have to stay at home anyway, so you didn't waste my time :) Plus, my sole goal is to get my feedback across to the designers- as long as they read it and take it into consideration then my time has not been wasted :D And I'm not a native english speaker either, so don't worry, your english is fine :3
: Hi man Im totaly with you ! :) I truly think that riot should consider more negative feedback. It just feel like they don't want to hear them. I play with the bug since more than 3 years now and I came with the same conclusion that you made in your last post.
Hey, I'm happy that you agree with my opinion but I would not go as far as to say Riot "does not want to hear negative feedback". Yes, there have been some cases where they went through with something that seemed like a bad choice because they thought they knew better, and it didn't work out. In other cases it did. I am not here to attack Riot, and as a very casual 3D artist / game designer I actually applaud and respect their work *extremely* much. Riot has gone from a tiny company that could barely balance champion designs, to a world-wide trademark that manages to appeal to extremely different cultures and age groups. They have risen up to the task as a cultural staple of our age, actively promote civility, human rights, teamplay, fairness and diversity both in their champion roster and in their playerbase. They realize the influence they have and they use it to not only entertain but also *educate* people, as is their moral obligation. So in _NO WAY_ am I trying to attack Riot, despite thinking some (thankfully just a few) of their design decisions could use some improvement. **Like this one. xD** And that's why I am trying to give constructive, structured feedback, make sure they hear it, and my job is done. I sincerely believe that they are doing their best to make this game as fair, fun and healthy as possible, because as an aspiring developer I know for a fact that this is the only way to make money from something: keeping your customers happy. I have never spent any money on any other online game I've ever played, and yet I've spent over 300 euros in LoL over the 5-6 years that I've been playing. And it has always been a very conscious decision. And the important fact, both for Riot and for me as their customer, is that I'm actually *happy* with my purchase, because I feel like I invest in a satisfying product that evolves with healthy designs and moral values in mind. And they profit, of course. These people have to eat. They don't *trick* me into buying their stuff on impulse. They make appealing products which I elect to buy- and they stand the test of time, they do not lose their value, so I feel safe to buy more when I see something I like. It's mutually beneficial - I pay whenever I want for my entertainment, they still make good products that make me happy to buy them, and so in return they make profits. :) So to clarify, me giving negative impact is me trying to **improve** the game I love, not shit-talk it. And if I was in charge of the game, it would probably run almost exactly like this, and the designs would also function on more or less the same principles. ##Except for the Kha rework. xD
: > [{quoted}](name=Drakarys,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AZZhU1PU,comment-id=003b00000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-22T00:38:59.621+0000) > > So your only gapcloser is your main burst skill, and you have to choose one or the other, either failing to get to the target or getting to them and lacking the burst to finish them off. This seems to be a common misconception. Early, yes, Q it your ticket to damage, and it may be unreliable. But look at its scaling, then compare it to the 180% AD RATIO ON PASSIVE. That is INSANE when you get some AD. This is where the damage comes from mid and late game.
Well, Riot designers seem to be supporting this common misconception. Also, 200% AD (it's not 180) is basically two autoattacks, which can be an amazing boost to your damage **however** it does not substitute the need for actual burst and reliable gap closing. Talon's damage output is as follows: **2.0** from passive. **1.1** from Q used as a gap closer. _(Old Q used to have **2.3** - it did 1.3 on top of the normal autoattack with of course, has a 1.0 scaling)_ *1.0* from W, both parts landed. _(Old W used to have 1.2 and 10 less base damage, which means it did more if you could get over 50 AD)_ **0** from E. **1.6** from ulti. _(Old ulti used to have 1.5 however it had 90 more base damage as well, so realistically it did more damage unless you can now get 900+ AD)_ Talon's passive would modify the old Q damage to **2.4** (since the basic attack would be amplified by 10%). So new Talon's full combo does **5.6** times his bonus AD. Old Talon's full combo did **5.1** which would get increased to **~5.8** by E's amplification. So you see that his damage output is only _slightly_ lower, almost negligibly so- and therefore we can assume that his underperformance lies in his inability to actually *apply* that damage by actually _catching_ the target. So since his damage is not particularly suffering compared to before, and we have made the assumption that it's his target accessibility that's suffering, let's compare his utility instead. _Passive_: A bleed that needs 3 skill hits and one autoattack to proc. Used to be a static autoattack modifier against CC'd targets. _Q:_ Short gap closer **dash** and autoattack reset, OR a strong burst ability. You have to choose between mobility and decent burst. Used to be autoattack reset and apply an instant bleed that did half the damage of this new one and also granted vision of the target. _W:_ Boomerang skillshot with a hefty delay that applies a 40 to 60% slow on the second hit. Used to apply a 20 to 40% slow on both hits, and it had no delay. _E:_ You can cross a lot of walls... _once_. 36 seconds cooldown with 40% CDR. Medium range gap-closing **blink** that amplified your damage by using it. It also offered a very short root. 4 seconds cooldown with 40% CDR, you could even follow enemy wall jumps if they had the vision from the Q bleed on them. _R:_ Same functionality. I think it's pretty clear that old Talon had not only more but also *stronger* options to stick on targets. The new Talon can move around the map very fast... _once_, and his options for sticking on a target is either Q or manage to land the delayed W slow. Old Talon could get vision on his target, a longer range _instant_ gap closer that could cross walls to chase people every 4 seconds instead of 36, and instantly apply 2 slows. But I think this is not hard to fix. * Make Q longer and maybe a bit faster so you dont get outplayed by the enemy simply jumping over the wall you just used, because you will be able to follow up with Q IF you have vision on the other sight. * Lower its Rank 5 cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 or at least 5, like the old Q used to have, so you can actually use it more freely to both stick on the target and kill them. * Make W apply half of its slow on the first part and the full slow on the second part. I think these changes will allow Talon to use both his Q and E more freely and enable him to stick to enemies that have more than 1 escape tool, like every other assassin can. Talon has 1 short gap closer right now, and one delayed slow to follow it up. Zed - 2 gap closers and a slow, Ahri - 3 and a hard CC, Fizz - 2 and a slow and a knockup, Rengar - variable plus slow + root, new Katarina - from 2 to many many more, LeBlanc - 2 plus root, Ekko - 1.5 plus slows and speed buffs, Diana - from 2 to many plus pull-back and slow, Akali - 3 plus constant combat invisibility.
: Ummm... he can blink with q (same as how he can E on live servers) or he can flash (same as on live)... He literally has more options open to him now than he did before.
He can *dash* with Q, **not** blink, which means he loses his most powerful damage ability. W and R both do less damage than live, so your only good burst skill is melee range Q. And it's got shorter range and slower speed than current Talon's E, not to mention you now absolutely need to autoattack after your combo, else the bleed doesn't proc. Don't forget that his E is only useful for getting close to the target's general location. You can't chase with it, since all it takes is the enemy dashing over a wall you have already used, and E is totally useless. So your only gapcloser is your main burst skill, and you have to choose one or the other, either failing to get to the target or getting to them and lacking the burst to finish them off. It's not like his R is up so often that you can use it to position next to the carry in every fight. Add to that the fact that his W is slower than live and only the second part slows, while dealing less damage than live too, and that you absolutely need to land both parts *and* Q to proc your passive, if R is not available... It doesn't seem like the options are so abundant. You use E on walls to position roughly behind the squishies. You jump the wall and you need to get to them fast. So you... 1. ...use Q on them, followed up by W and R. _R does less damage than the Q crit_, and so you simply lack the damage to finish them off. You probably die, and the passive may or may not score the kill. 2. ...use R to get into melee range. The enemies group up around the carries, and you may or may not manage to get the kill / the passive proc depending on their positioning and how fed you are. You will most definitely die, but you might get the kill if you got close enough with R. 3. ...try to find a wall right next to the target in order to have both Q and R available for the guaranteed kill. However if the target is Lucian, Tristana, Caitlyn, the Kindred, Corki or ANY ONE of the numerous mobile mid laners, they can just jump over the same wall you just crossed and they're completely safe from you - and you're right in the middle of their team with no nearby wall jumps available.
: Hi, I'm the designer working on Kha, and I've mostly been engaging with the Kha Subreddit tbh. For the most part, people seem pretty excited or cool with the update. After the first day where no one honestly knows what they are talking about, any opinion of "kha is weak now" seems to have vanished as well and internally we are pretty happy about his balance numbers too. Did you have some specific concerns or questions?
Hi, I talked to you on the sub as well on Kata's rework! :) First of all I'm sorry if my comments on Kha sound a bit bitter, it's just that he's one of my mains and I fear that he's going to be worse after the rework. I totally love your ideas so far and I didn't mean to sound aggressive. You have my sincerest apologies if this sounded like a *"FUK U RITO U RUIN MY MAIN!!!"* post - and I do find the other reworks _absolutely_ brilliant. But since I have your attention, let me briefly elaborate on my concerns: * **Q and R evolutions feel counterproductive to each other.** The new Q Evolution pushes him more towards extended engagements (you need to Q the target multiple times) however the best tool for extended engagements, Active Camouflage, now got turned to something completely useless for duels. So you're left with baseline Void Assault. * **Most importantly, the new Active Camouflage does not have a clear identity**. See, it only works out of combat, which immediately makes it useless for playing "hide and seek" and juking, so the natural reaction is to try and use it to set up ganks/engages with it. However it only lasts for 3 seconds, forcing you to either miss out on the stealth if it's not the right time yet, or rush in potentially prematurely. I really try to understand what it is good for, except for maybe early invades and a glorified Nidalee passive for map mobility. I feel like old Active Camouflage was so much more useful, especially in teamfights which are of course Kha's weakest point, but also invades, outplays, killing a target when you're behind... What outplay potential does the new Evolution offer? :/ It would make much more sense as a _Tactical Evolution_ if it also worked in-combat, and it would make much more sense as a _Strategic Evolution_ if it remained out-of-combat-only but it lasted _significantly_ longer, allowing you to stealthily move from brush to brush right under the enemies noses, and jump at them from where they least expect it - even if that meant a much longer cooldown per-brush after breaking stealth. But now it's strictly useless for combat and it's not ideal for ganks and stealthy map movement either. You can't travel between most brushes within 1,5 seconds, let alone 1,25... and even if you go into *one* brush and try to pounce on them from there (which is way less cool than playing "the floor is lava" from brush to brush), 3 seconds feel restrictive. ---------------- Maybe I'm missing an obvious use case here, but the bottom line is that, as of now **it feels like it has the disadvantages of both a combat stealth (incredibly short duration) and a "setup" stealth like old Rengo or Twitch (only works out of combat) and the advantages of neither (usable in fights or extended duration).** **I would love to hear your insights on this and, again, thank you for your time!**
: UPDATE! For tomorrow: Good news and bad news. Bad news first: * Increasing the wall cooldown CD by 10 at all ranks Okay but now the good news: * Wall cooldown now scales with CDR. So rank 1 CD is now 160. With just 10% CDR, that's already 144, lower than the old rank 1. With 40% CDR that's 96s (36s at max rank). Hopefully this helps the wall CD scale more favorably with game time and functions more like you'd expect it to. Also, adding a very experimental change to see if we can improve the E experience for enemies: * Enemies who see Talon vault over a wall get a quick flash of walls near Talon that are on cooldown.
This is absolutely fantastic, 36s is already so much better than 50 seconds and I'm sure if it turns out to be too high, you will adjust it in the future. But flashing the "used" walls to enemies kinda defeats the purpose of the lower recharge. The entire point of lower recharge with CDR was to make Talon *not* be so restricted by the long wall cooldowns. However, since 36s is still strictly a "once per fight" thing, letting enemies know exactly which walls they can cross to *completely* negate Talon's mobility is not a good idea, in my opinion. Especially when Talon is already struggling to assassinate targets effectively especially after Laning Phase is over. Also, revealing the enemy's cooldowns used to be a traditional "no-go" for Riot... doesn't that apply to this? Why would the enemies know which of Talon's walls are on cooldown?
: I don't really care about ulti scaling since that's just a skill to ensure resets, I wouldn't mind if they nerfed it into submission if it meant a tradeoff of making her best damaging spell feel better in lane. I don't follow Reddit, so thank you for informing me!
That's the difference, ulti is no longer just a throwaway skill to just ensure resets. Now it's the most reliable damage output source in your kit, and if you can land a good ulti you should always do it because the QWE combo is now way more unreliable than before. You need to change your mindset in order to make this work. Forget what you knew about Kata.
: Just some quick maths to do some comparisons between live and PBE Zed: Live Zed ranks W last, gaining an additional 4/8/12/16/20% of his bonus AD per rank. At level 16, Zed will have 3 ranks in this W, granting him 12% of his bonus AD as additional AD. At this point in the game, if current Zed has his core build of Black Cleaver, Dusk Blade, Yoomus, and 10 AD from runes, he will be getting ~24 AD(195 * 0.12). In this current iteration on PBE, if level 16 Zed gets a successful Death Mark assist/kill on any target with more than 200 total AD, he gains 30 (from the target) + 5 AD. You could argue that Zed could have more AD items at his level 16 point on live, but keep in mind we are also tuning down the raw AD stat on some of the AD items during this pre season, which means the bonus value you'd be getting with them is also lowered if we kept W's passive. The big buff is that if PBE Zed gets a kill/assist at any point in the game with Death Mark before level 14, Shadow Reaping is strictly a buff in almost all situations even if you killed a mage. Sometimes it could net you +20 AD or more in the early/mid game if there is another AD stacker in the game like Rengar/Kha'Zix/Graves. With all that being said, I will be watching his performance really closely and tune him up/down accordingly within the coming patches! If it turns out late game Shadow Reaping is under tuned, it's definitely on the table to be buffed :).
##As a designer, what are your thoughts on reworked KhaZix? I've heard at least *some* Rito feedback on *our* feedback for most reworks, even for Zed and Fizz who didn't get as much attention by players compared to LB and Rengar, but on Kha we are getting only radio silence. I know you're probably not the one working on him, but as a part of the general rework team, how do you gauge his performance compared to his more "figher-ish" twin counterpart, Rengar? Kitty seems to be doing exceedingly well right now but Kha'Zix feels a bit underwhelming, just like Talon *(but he at least is monitored and will be buffed accordingly)*. Is he really that weak or is it just perceived weakness, like you're saying Zed's case is?
: Just steal the AD from Jhin and Rengar then ;)
Well, I will if there's an available Jhin... I certainly will. xD The new Rengar looks like he can eat Zed for breakfast though. Gone are the days of being terrified of Zed above Bronze :( And tbh for a champion with such clear ways to outplay his ulti, I wish his success cases would be a little more impressive than this. :/
: Thank you for the comment! I thought her E was now a dash because of her tooltip "Katarina dashes in the blink of an eye" comboed with the VFX. That's my bad. I also didn't see the info on the new functionality of her E. Not a fan of it since I have shaky hands, but it's interesting. I don't quite remember perfectly on this, but I do think the first proc of her Q was slightly touched by maybe .05? I remember her old Q having a combined scaling of .6, but both procs not having the same ratios, but idk. I know how her daggers work with E and how they scale, but I don't like the mechanic as it is quite unreliable and slow. Avoiding her Q daggers in lane is really easy and even if she goes for an E>W trade, then it's still easy to leave the pickup radius before it drops. Outtrading her and smashing her in lane is too easy as a result of this (No one has let me pick her in PvP, but I've laned against her a bit). And it's hard to really place daggers in an interesting way since they decay faster than her cooldowns, the free throw has no range, and they're too easy to read. I've only noticed people die to Kat when they have no idea how her daggers work - basically only having strength through opponent's ignorance. And I do use her Daggers, at the end of the day, they're a fun mechanic to use, but by the fact of needing to use it to do any damage indeed is what made me call her a 1-note champion. With no more things like ward dodges or hopping either, it just feels kind of lame and at the more interesting trading patterns she'd gotten are more or less just simplified ward hopping with less innate options. Maybe I'm just biased against all reworks against champions I like that change their general flow ever since the Nidalee rework.
Riot Whale has already stated (on Reddit) that he is closely monitoring her Dagger drop speed and is likely to buff it as people learn how to dodge them more effectively. He is also nerfing her ulti scaling from 330% to 285% (live is 250%) because he said he "overbuffed".
: The Parkour design is one of the coolest things you could've given him, but I think there is too much focus on this one ability that takes away from complexity within lane and target selection in the late game. I don't think we need another just as mechanically intricate champ as Zed but having two abilities in lane as a melee really sucks. You could argue that the passive adds for game-play but the passive is linked directly to these two abilities, so its effectiveness is gated directly by the usefulness of these abilities. Most other assassins have the option to trade damage for mobility/evasiveness (Spirit Rush, Living Shadow, Playful-Trickster, New Katarina and Leblanc as a whole) Talon does not have this at all in lane as his only "evasive" maneuver he has is extremely aggressive. I understand this is probably a design philosophy, and I understand the choice of using the melee q for more damage versus the gapcloser, but in practice it feels like there is never a chance to make this choice as you are forced to use the gapcloer to proc passive and deal the brunt of your damage. These are just things that I've noticed, and I think an extremely obvious solution to this is to give E some kind of in lane mobility, no matter how minor. The full idea I had was making Assassins path his passive and moving the current passive to one of his core abilities. His new E ability would be a small roll/like a short burst of mobility and speed that had a long cd and was reset on the Blades end passive proccing. You could even make the E interact with his other abilities in some way, but with the core design that if he uses it for some kind of escape then he is severely penalized. Mobility at a cost. Ironically the current rework is a great example of this philosophy, as his new E is a massive investment of his power budget, but it feels extremely forced on the player to roam at all times as he has no way of outplaying the lane opponent if they know to avoid his w. My only question for you (Stashu if you are reading) is if any kind of increased mobility or non-terrain functionality for his E is currently being considered. It's not a unique idea of mine and I think for good reason. Whatever the answer I'm glad you did what you did. Talon deserved a rework for quite some time now and you gave him an extremely iconic ability, I just wish he had more outplay potential.
I think his lack of lane options is intended. I totally agree his 1v1 could be a little buffed since he basically plays with 2 abilities and a passive which doesn't have the uptime of Aurelion Sol's stars (alleviating some weight of the lack of a third combat ability in favor of map mobility). And I think it's a little too late to basically revert the entire rework direction towards giving him more power in lane and less map mobility. My own concern is that despite all that emphasis on map mobility, its use is actually quite restricted in literally *every scenario* except roaming very fast. Anything that isn't "go from point A to point B as fast as possible" is hindered tremendously by the humongous recharge timers. Sol's _Comet of Legend_ is also an ability that allows for impressive roaming and is arguably faster than Talon could ever hope to be, but the theoretical advantage of _Assassin's Path_ is that it allows you freedom of movement, sacrificing pure speed for more options. However when the minimum lockdown is 50 seconds instead of like 10, and that's usually at lvl 18 too, it completely disincentivizes freedom of movement. It's literally a one-way trip from point A to point B. Which is cool for roaming, however after laning phase roaming is gone and you need repositioning instead. Even Akali can jump walls with her Shroud now...
: Hey there! I've been a Kha'Zix main since season 2 when he was released (back when AD assassins just sucked by virtue of the game design at the time). Anywho, I'll go through each change as I found them on the PBE after a few games. I know there's an official list somewhere but w/e. Passive: Now scales off of AD. Perfect change, should have happened a while back. Q: Evolving gives CDR on isolated targets, 4 second CD(1 second nerf), and seems to deal more damage when unevolved and isolated and maybe a bit more under certain circumstances. On Evolution: It just feels weird because I imagine evolving Q to make me deal more burst, but instead increases my DPS and dueling if the target is isolated. Reminds me when he first came out how you went W->E->R because Q maxing felt so bad due to no extra damage, except in the form of execution damage when isolated(it was bad). At least this is useful if you plan to split, which I do admit is how I decide to play it sometimes. Might be better on top lane kha. Not sure if this type of evolution is bad or good for kha, but probably makes him much less feast and famine while making his instagibs almost non existent from my experience. On CD increase: Personally 4 feels too high atm. If I evolve E first it really messes with reset timings, as I am currently tuned well with how much the live CD is. It also makes jungling noticeably harder, but maybe once the new jungle is around my opinion on that will change(currently live jungle on PBE). Once I get CDR I don't feel this very much, but based off of my guessing 45% CDR and W evolve might be the much better way to go... W: No slow before evolution, slightly weaker slow after evolution but now doubles the slow to 80% when isolated. First off I completely approve of this change except for maybe the lack of a slow early. I do not believe kha has a fantastic early game under normal circumstances, but now the lack of a slow combined with now slow on W early really makes early ganks and clears harder(you did use the slow to kite monsters). I would feel better with a 20% slow before evolution, but quite franky this just feels loads better compared to live. 5/7, would evolve first again(while maxing Q). E: Didn't notice anything tbh. R: No longer 3rd stack on ult, basically get stealthy bush movement. Stays at 1.5 through both sides instead of going from 1->2 seconds by evolving. I think the idea of this is to be more invade heavy, which conflicts with Q in that manner. It does also give more gank pressure, but not sure if you'd evolve this first or 3rd. Might consider evolving E 3rd to be more late game oriented and have W+R for between lane movement and catching out people. Not sure, again more will have to play more. I just wish I wouldn't get locked out of my ult for two seconds every time I used it, it's such an outdated nerf left over from when kha could go invisible for 6 seconds with huge %tage damage reduction instead of now the currently maxed 3 seconds with no damage reduction. It just messes with the feel of kha zix, and messes with my ideals of being stealthy which I feel is the point of evolving the ult in the first place. I'd also love to see something along the lines of if kha stays stealthed without taking damage for 1.5 seconds he is now placed in out of combat(allows him to start moving through brushes again and is kind of a unique mechanic, with counterplay being that you can still hit him while invisible to disrupt it). That is a bit of a stretch, but it feels sad to see the ult go from allowing cool in combat stealth plays(ult youmuus flash is one of my favorite movement tricks ever) to just being purely about being in position to do stuff. Still very cool but it's definitely not the kha zix ive known for years, and not the one on live for sure. I'm fine with that. Overall it looks like you gave more "specific situation" stuff for kha. Would like to see more actually in combat stealth stuff on ult, small slow on unevolved W(at least on monsters), and then maybe a small CD buff on Q. Oh, and the 2 second stealth lock out on ult. If nothing else, do the last one. I still felt like I was playing kha zix, just felt like a new one.
This is exactly my thoughts. Q feels like you can't burst people anymore, you have to sit there and DPS them like they're just going to ever stay Isolated for more than half a second in a fight. And R went from an amazing combat evolution to a totally non-combat evolution. This would be _SUCH_ a cool Evolution if it could only work in-combat! It would truly make Kha'Zix a terrifying force, appearing and disappearing and reappearing somewhere else, chunking you each time. It would also work better with his new Q against Isolated targets. But right now Q requires you to 1v1 someone for 2+ seconds, and instead of giving him the old awesome dueling power, the R evolution now is a non-combat setup, and a bad one at that since despite you being out of combat, for some reason it only lasts 3 seconds anyway so you have to rush your engage or miss out on it. So basically Q is pushing you to find and fight Isolated targets, but then the thing that was your best tool for extended engagements and hide-and-seek gets changed to some type of mediocre ganking assistance that doesn't even last long enough to move from the little river "patch" brush to the big one near the wall without getting seen- which by the way **was** possible with old Evolved R which lasted 2 seconds per cast, **and** was not completely useless for fights too.
: Tuning up the late game %AD he can gain from enemies, ratios on Q or increasing the amount of damage double hitting Q does to enemy champions are some initial things I would try.
This sounds perfect. Q poke alone is not so important but when you need to burst someone it's disheartening. And also please make sure Zed gets a ton of AD late game... he used to be the "highest AD possible in the game" champion, then he (rightfully) got dethroned by Jhin, but now even Rengar can easily surpass him with his crazy AD multiplier. :(
: No major updates for today, but a few usability changes: * E tooltip now includes that the spell has a max range * Some minor fixes to make small E jumps always go at least some distance (~350 units). * moved the cooldown indicator color change to start in the last 30 seconds of the cooldown (instead of the last 10). Still monitoring overall assassination effectiveness (ability to access target / up front burst), especially in the late game. I know there are concerns over this, and I'm definitely not sure it's in the spot it should be in, so I'll be keeping a close eye on this.
Thank you **SO MUCH** for hearing our concerns and monitoring his damage and target accessibility with Q and E as well, *especially* in the late game when roaming is no longer a thing. Talon's direction is one of the _coolest_ reworks and it has the potential to become an absolute gem, it just needs a little more polishing so it gets the job done properly in all phases of the game. I completely trust you will do him justice <3
: I did no imply anything of that sort. In fact, i wasn't giving any sort of judgement about her current R. I was just saying: "hey, here is an idea. Of course, skills need some form of counterplay, and here is what form of counterplay you can have against this particular one". If anything, i think the skill i suggested may offer less counterplay than her current ult. Btw, i'm not even implying that my suggestiong would be better, i just wanted to share some random idea related to this discussion.
I agree that this idea would be less rewarding for Kata and more annoying for her enemies to counter, but I mistook your approach as "it should be this instead". So you have my apologies :) I just think her ulti is a great alternative in case she fails her basic combo, and it can win a fight as a stand-alone ability instead of involving Daggers which can be hit-or-miss. Compare this to new Kha, who has always relied on catching a target Isolated (which he doesn't control at all, it's up to his enemies to make a mistake) and now the rework makes him rely on it *even* more, while removing his only alternative, his old R Evolution which allowed him survive in teamfights. Now, he has no alternatives in case his main mechanic (Isolation) fails to work out - he either finds an Isolated target and kills them, or he's rendered quite useless. There's no middle ground. Everything he does works off of Isolation. And that's why I love having a powerful stand-alone ability that I can rely on to win the fight (if landed properly), in case the main mechanic (Daggers) for some reason doesn't work out quite as intended in one fight.
: I'd rather keep the channeling portion of the ultimate, since it carries interesting gameplay and counterplay (there's genuine tension in prolonging the channel, and enemies can counter with disables), but I do think not making it interact with Daggers would be a wasted opportunity. The Grievous Wounds effect also likely needs to go, as it never feels that impactful. If I were to go about it, I'd keep the current channel, but instead have it lay down a certain amount of daggers over the duration, based on the position of nearby enemies. That way, she could lay down her ult and, if she sets it up right, could follow up with massive Shunpo madness.
You can still use W right before you ult and she will use the Dagger during the ulti... Plus the ulti works as a reliable alternative to her messing up her Dagger setup. Death Lotus is a standalone ability despite its synergy with W and E, and as an Ultimate, it should stay that way. It is her only alternative in case she *failed* her massive Shunpo madness, and it has no strings attached to it. Doesn't require Daggers, doesn't dispense Daggers. Landing Death Lotus on its own is enough, you don't have to think about stuff. Plus, she can already set up plenty of Daggers with the resets she gets from Death Lotus. Using Daggers alone might fail to win the fight, but landing a good Death Lotus will almost always reward you- and whoever survived will soon die to your Daggers and E resets. I think it complements her new kit just beautifully. It's the opposite of the new Kha'Zix where if he can't get a target Isolated he's even worse than before. New Kata relies on her daggers but she always has her ult, and that makes her less one-dimensional. I think it's perfect as it is.
: I agree it would be super cool to be able to shunpo during her ultimate. Damage would have to be significantly lowered, but it sounds super fun and feels like it fits with the rest of her new kit really well.
And it would be much less skillful and quite pointless. Death Lotus is a high-risk, high-reward move. It's the hardest of her abilities to land properly but the reward is also crazy. Why water it down? Why make it safer, with less counterplay, and less fun for the Kata player too? As a Kata main I have to say there's nothing better than landing a good ulti. It's all about strategy and killer instinct, the simplest and most beautiful of abilities. Kill or be killed. Why make it less risky by blinking around 2-3 times? Why nerf its awesome damage to facilitate the unnecessary mobility? What advantages will it have other than being harder to counter but much less rewarding too?
: How about: "Katarina throws X daggers that scatter in a target area" Daggers don't do damage, they are just a set-up for her, pretty much like her W, but instead of landing on her position, they scatter in a designed area. That way, after they land, she can keep on jumping from dagger to dagger while decimating enemies. I think it would be more thematic with her new kit, but maybe a bit OP. To balance the skill, it should be decided a) how many daggers to throw b) how far they can be thrown from katarina (the range, basically) c) how big the area within they fall in should be It is a lot more dynamic then her current ult and may be harder to stop. However, counterplay would still be possible because a) there is some time between the moment she throw the daggers and the moment they land b) shunpo isn't completely resetted, so you can try to catch her between 2 jumps. However, with her current kit at lvl 16 she may be able to jump to fast which is why i think this ult would be OP. Feel free to suggest good ways to prevent this. A few things to notice: - she may be able to use it as an escape, too. I don't think it is too bad though, because she sacrifices her ult for that, and she still need to wait until the daggers land to be able to use them to escape, so it's not as fast as ward-jumping - damage on her daggers-pick up may be lowered to balance this ult and the whole kit as well
Do you imply her current ulti has no counterplay? Because it is literally the best "high risk, high reward" skill in the game. Kata has to sit still for 2.5 seconds in the middle of the enemy team, completely unprotected. She is literally in the MOST risky position she can get into. However if the enemies don't punish her as fast as possible... they will melt. This is the most balanced thing you can have. She is standing still RIGHT NEXT TO YOU - it's totally up to you to stop her. She might throw 2 daggers and instantly die, or she might pull it off and destroy your team. And if she pulls it off, there is nobody to blame but her enemies for not stopping her. They had *every chance* to do it.
: Wouldn't that would be extremely over powered? You could throw your Q, use your W and then ult. You could teleport to the Q location, then to the W location while ulting.
You can still use W right before you ulti though, to get a colossal damage spike in the middle of your ulti as the dagger falls on top of you. :3 Alternatively, you can W before you Shunpo so you have a good escape path once you're done with Death Lotus.
: I don't think that would be appropriate, since the point to her ultimate is that she's standing in the exact same spot for a full two-and-a-half-second channel. The gameplay to that is that enemies can either walk away or disable her, so giving her mobility in the middle of it reduces that counterplay significantly.
Exactly. It could happen, but ulti would lose like 70% of its damage and half its range. Havign to sit still is the only thing that justifies its face-melting damage. Because nobody can complain that it's OP when Katarina is standing still for 2.5 seconds, unprotected, right next to them. Just like MF, although MF's ulti is much safer due to its gigantic range. Kata's is literally a suicide dive - either she dies, or everyone else dies.
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