: Tbh, I dont agree. I feel that to be an effective support, you are still going to have to build normal support items, with an exception of maybe one damage item, using her ult doesnt seem like itd be a very viable choice. If you were the adc how mad would you be if your cs'ing got messed up cuz your support was trying to harass enemies with the ult. On top of that,she really wouldnt become of much use until later in the game damage wise, because you still would have to wait to get gold from your gp5s etc etc. I'm very sad about the "warding burden" now the games i get into that arent trolls or dc's and go on for a long time, you see that nobody still buys wards, and at a late game, everyone will/should have a full build, so they cant help with wards, now as support its solely left up to you, and you cant even place more than 3. A true support would be sad that there is a ward cap D:
But even if/when it comes to late game, I think that is what the trinket system is there for. So that, even if you do have people with 6 item builds, they can still contribute in vision/denying vision. As for people not warding still. Give it time. There's lots of new changes, and it will take some getting used to x) At first I was a bit dissapointed that I could only place down 3 three wards, but recently I think its making me think more about where I decide to place wards. Also, not having to be the only one with the burden of warding does help you get some big ticket items. x)
: Will definitely try this! Wanted to use some casters as a Support for a long time. I'm thinking about Lissandra, Orianna, Ziggs, Elise (that has already been pulled off on high levels of play).
I have tried Orianna Support on Live but not yet on the PBE with the gold/support changes. Orianna has great poke in lane. I put 1 point in Q, and I start maxing W first, then the E sheild second. W poke does great damage when you land it, and gives good opportunities for your adc and you to autoattack because of the Slow. Plus that shockwave and shield is still so useful late game. I wonder how much more useful she will be with more gold on her. xD As for anivia support, I think its possible for her to come into the light now. I think she does have a good kit to support her team. But I don't think she would be a great peeler, she can, but not as well as supports like lulu or nami. What anivia would excel at is setting up plays for her team with her wall, and delaying people from getting to the adc with her aoe Slow. :D Should be fun to try out!
: I like the idea of the mastery. Enhanced placement distance is exactly what a scout should be able to do. But the enhancement is so small that it is almost unnoticeable, kind of like how the S2 version gave an almost unnoticeable enhancement to the vision radius. RIOT needs to either make it significant, possibly moving it down the tree so only supports take it, or they need to just abandon the whole concept of the ward enhancing mastery. This is 3 strikes already.
Same here. I really enjoy the concept of having enhanced vision placement with the **Scout** mastery. And, I really want to see it work in S4, because if it doesn't, like you said, this will be the 3rd strike already. It's great that you even brought up the S2 version- I know I didn't mention it in my post, but the same ideas presented in my post still applies. For those that don't know, it granted an increased vision radius while the ward was active, but it was also too insignificant for it to be picked up. Here's the description I got out from Mobafire: * *Scout: Increases vision range of wards by 5% * This was also in the Tier 2 of the utility tree back then, with mana regen and movement speed+ in the same category. So, its understandable why most players didn't end up picking this mastery. (You could see this reflected in community/discussion sites like mobafire for example.) There's a history of this mastery always being lackluster every season. Is it really that bad to give it a larger % increase? Its not like we're asking to be able to ward an enemies blue/red buff camp from river. That would be ridiculous xD. Even if the mastery was buffed to be situational, I'd be alright with that. Lets say you are up against a blitzcrank/leona lane. You probably would want to pick up the X% cast range increase (lets say 50%) against these two champs, so that you can ward the brushes from a safer location. [**NOTE:** *You should not be able to ward completely past the range of blitzcrank's pull or maybe Leona's E. It should still be within a possible range to allow for counterplay, but at least with a mastery like this, it can give players a little bit of legroom to react to the pull or zeith blade from a distance.*]That would be one example, if it were to become a situational mastery pick. But I'd rather have the mastery put more emphasis on new warding opportunities. As far as moving the mastery down the tree. If they only wanted it to benefit supports, then I guess its alright. But I think having the Mastery at Tier 1 is in a good place since it applies to trinkets as well, which applies to everyone who gets trinkets. :) It just needs a number tweak, I would be disappointed to see this concept go away. **What if the mastery is too trouble some to balance/buff because of X reasons?** Then the mastery should just be replaced with a new one,and have a new one take its place. There is no use of having this become another "filler" mastery in the tree. It would just end up taking space of what could be more interesting/useful mastery in its place. (For ex: Increases the charge of Sightstone by 1) I really hope someone from Riot can come discuss their thoughts on this topic. I don't think this mastery should go out live the way it is, but maybe Riot has certain reasons why they ended up choosing this value. But it would be nice to hear these reasons. =)
: I like this topic. Well thought out and great formatting! I also agree, this change would feel worthwhile to spend those 2 valuable mastery points. I would feel like I'm making an actual choice **and weighing my options** for what I want to do in that particular match.
Thank you for your reply and kind words! :-) I'm happy people agree that the **Scout** mastery should have more impact, and letting players have more options. It's what I wanted others to get out of my post, so I'm glad I was able to be clear on that to you, and everyone else who participated in this thread so far. Having the **Scout** mastery get a larger % cast range might help create choice for players. Currently, with the Season 4 mastery tree, in order to unlock the 2rd Tier in Utility you need 4 points. If we are going with a standard/common set up, people will most likely put 3 points for mana regen (Meditation), so they can unlock the Upper branch for the 10% hp regen that is equal to your mana regen (Strength of Spirit). So, the 3 options you have left for the 4th point are the 1 sec CD off of recall, %movement speed, and the **Scout** mastery. I think most people, myself included, would agree that putting that 4th is more worthwhile in the %MS category than the recall or **Scout** option (with the **Scout** mastery being the lowest in priority), even if that .5% MS at rank 1 seems negligible. It just doesn't feel like there's much choice to it. :( I think that's what you were implying with what you said about spending those 2 valuable mastery points. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
: I agree, the only impact I feel for the current vision is...it is a little bit safter to ward(600 range-->660 range), it will be really cool if it would open some new places to ward from.
Thanks for the reply! I'm glad other people share the idea that the **Scout** mastery could have more impact, and that being able to ward from new places is would be cool. =) And thanks for letting me know about the vision range. What you said about feeling a bit safer to ward is interesting. I think be able to ward more safely should be a bonus aspect of the mastery, but not the main thing about it. It should be about opening new warding opportunities, even if some of those are still dangerous ;) For me personally, those 60 units weren't noticeable visually, or gameplay wise- even if I am in fact "safer" because of those 60 units.
: I'd agree with what you're saying. I doubt this will have any important applications with only 10% - However, even with 25% or whatever number allows some new areas to ward, I'm tempted to say that the point would be more often better invested in extra movement, lowered recall time, or mana regeneration (if even 1 point). The 1 point of warding niche areas could be better spent on a mastery point that could have more universal uses (which all of the tier 1 utility points provide). But, if it is tweaked to a number that allows more options for warding over walls, I'd prefer it over having virtually no options in it's current iteration. On a side note, you mentioned as an advantage, making it easier to ward difficult areas. I don't think making areas that are normally harder to ward easier makes it worth investing. If you know the spot to place your cursor you should be able to ward it 100% of the time, so the point should be invested elsewhere, as you can buffer out the mechanical problem and it'll magically not be a problem anymore. It seems like training wheels for warding. The most practical use I can think of is increasing the range of the orb trinket, as the range may actually matter (and I still can't imagine it being worth the point at 10%, even using the orb 100% of the game). Being an only 1 point investment and in the 1st tier of utility, I don't think it should be too powerful, anyway (if they choose to keep it in that location on the tree). So, a small buff (around 25%) will probably be suitable just to make it playable, even though I think most of the time it would get outclassed.
Hello! First off, I want to thank you for your reply. I'm glad to see there are others who are willing to talk about the new changes to the Scout mastery. I agree that right now, the state the Scout mastery (at 10%) doesn't have many important applications, and even with an increase like 50%, some players will still choose other mastery slots because they are more "universal" like you said. The idea here would be so that the Scout mastery is buffed at X% where it can end up being a *choice* for the player. Another possible solution to this is to keep the mastery in Tier 1 of the Uility tree, but make the mastery slot out of 2 points. * Rank 1: Increases cast range of trinkets item by x% * Rank 2: Increases cast range of wards by x% I'm suggesting that the cast range for trinkets be increased a bit more. The main purpose of this possible solution would be to make the Scout mastery be more "universal" since everyone in the game will end up getting trinkets anyway. This allows us to buff the value so that it is equal to everyone. And for those who want a more niche aspect out of the mastery they will have to invest a second point for the cast range increase. And because you have to invest another point, I think it is reasonable to buff the % cast range. This solution would only be aimed at making the *Scout* mastery more universal, and making it more reasonable to give it more power. > On a side note, you mentioned as an advantage, making it easier to ward difficult areas. I might not have been clear as I wanted in my post. I did mean to say that being able to ward more easily in difficult areas would be an advantage, or make it the main aspect. I wanted to make the point that an improved % cast range should make the player feel like "more *warding opportunities* are being opened to them" and "areas that are difficult to ward become more *accessible*". The latter isn't limited to just tricky/difficult warding spots that involves pointing your cursor in a certain way (like the sign post in the tribrush behind dragon's pit), but it also includes "routes". For example, if you wanted to ward Blue's teams brush near wraiths, you would have to walk up the ramp, and place a ward down. With an increased % cast range, you now would have the option to perhaps ward that same bush from within dragon's pit. It should offer new warding opportunities. Not necessarily "advantages". Furthermore, each would still have its own result. By taking the route up the ramp, you can get more vision of the wraith camp, whereas warding from dragon pit, is to primarily let you know if anyone is standing in that bush, and keeping you safe from potential harm's way. > The most practical use I can think of is increasing the range of the orb trinket, as the range may actually matter I maybe be detracting a bit from my original post, since I didn't talk about the "trinkets" even though they are included in the mastery, but I think its also worth talking about. I think my other previous suggestion about breaking the mastery into two slots: one for the trinket, and one for the ward could help improve the practical use of the orb trinket (since I think its the weakest one out of the three) Perhaps instead of all trinkets, it can just improve the orb trinket itself, since the other 2 trinkets are fine the way they are. Having an extra range on the orb trinket alone, will make the *Scout* mastery not only unified in theme, but also make it more universal since anyone in the game can pick up the orb trinket, and choose it even mroe because of the improved % cast range. I want to mainly focus on the warding aspect of the *Scout* mastery, but I think its important to talk about the trinket aspect of it as well, which I also think it should have the range increased for the orb trinket so that there is a real choice being made between 3 trinkets, not just 2 (the warding and the sweeping lens).
Rioter Comments
: I did some computations on Sivir's new Q. (surprise)
Wow, thx for doing this. As someone who hasn't really played sivir, this helps put things into perspective. :-)
: This new 5v5 game
I would personally love an Aram style map, or even better, its own map, which maybe like SR but smaller. Anything that promotes more teamfights at a higher rate would be lots of fun. =)
: One For All Enabled On PBE!
Hello, I'm in the queue right now and this will be the first time I try this out. Are there certain things you are looking for? Like the voting process? Or what elements of this mode are exciting and what not? ~~I will come back here with some feedback after the first game is done.~~ I love the way the voting works in this system. There isn't this feel of "not picking according to your team's wishes" You just pick whatever champ you want, and what ever the majority is it decides. I still have some questions about this system, but i will come back later after this game is done. So far so good, i like it! *Edit:* So what happens if all 5 people pick a different champ, or if 4 people pick 2 different champs with the 5 undecided leaving the vote 2-2-0. How does the vote system decide then which champ gets selected? *EDIT:* So, I just finished a game 5 lux v 5 lee sins. And there was a lot of anticipated excitement when we were looking for someone in an invade. Short story: we did well early game but we lost late game. But thats fine, it was fun along the way. One thing I noticed was there were lots of teamfights going around mid game. Not sure why. Maybe because there was this urge to go mid so we could have a "ARAM" like experience. All we really wanted to do was Chain CC a lee sin or two with Binds, Aoe Slows, and 5 different lasers going off at once. That was satisfying when we did. Like wise the enemy lee sins enjoyed maneuvering around the battlefield by constantly jumping towards wards and themselves. So, I enjoy that element of each champ's doing their own thing multiplied by 5. Also, I don't know if this is a problem or not, but having this mode be on SR, I feel like it might limit some people into picking a champ that has to go "jungle" or "support". We didn't have a jungler or support. All the lux started out with dorans + pots. And for the most part everyone went AP/CDR. Same applies for the lee sins. Most went for Hydras for dmg, and some were a bit more tanky than others, but they were all having fun jumping around the battlefield. I think what everyone enjoyed most that game were the teamfights. We were able to knock towers down pretty easily for some reason. Were they changed at all for this mode? If towers are easier to take down, I think thats great because it allows for more teamfights to occur, which is were all the fun is by having 5 of the same champ. xD
: Soraka's New Passive and the Abundance of Healing Reduction
Your suggestions on 3) and and 2) are interesting, and might make soraka's playstyle a bit more interesting, but for the most part I disagree with all the other options, and the things that you consider nerfs, I consider necessary so that there is more interaction in the bottom lane, when playing against soraka lanes. **Playing against** {{champion:16}} Soraka is intended as you said, a defensive support, which also provides great sustain if your just looking to farm and survive in lane. However, in the current live client one of two outcomes will happen. 1. Soraka lanes will just shove to your tower making them vulnerable to ganks. The problem though is that wards are sufficient to usually prevent ganks, so your only options is to trade. However, you can't really trade with how strong soraka's heals are. Anytime I would go for a trade, soraka will just heal it back up. Now, with the new changes, I feel soraka has to decide whether to heal her teammate at above 50% health or below 50% health. This gives the enemy an window of opportunity to trade, which compared to the live is very little to almost non-existent right now. 2. Soraka lanes will just play passive and hug their turret, exposing the enemy team to ganks.Wards are sufficient to prevent ganks in this scenario as well. Although in this case, there's not much you can do to fight, so you have to force the tower down as quickly as you can. (This is often the choice I decide to do) By changing Q so that it requires soraka to bring up her heal faster, now there is a new opportunity for the enemy to interact. If soraka wants to keep her sustain up, she now has to shove the lane a little more. There is no longer this binary situation of one side being pushed in. It feels like there is more room between the enemy and soraka lanes. **Playing as** {{champion:16}} Now, I have play a few games with soraka as well. Before these changes, I would almost always start W for all games, and continue to max W for heal (depending on how necessary), and then proceed to max E next for mana sustain, and I would withhold from putting a point into Q until sometime after lvl 6. Now with the new changes, and the few games I have played with her, it felt more exciting to start E now for dmg/poke *and then* start heal.I tended to max E first now for the poke, while leaving one point in Q and one for W. The new interaction with Q+W lets me decide how much heal sustain we are going to need. If I feel like we will be fine with rank 1 base heal, I can continue to max Q for the increased CDR on Astral Blessing. **Some final thoughts and things I haven't tested yet.** Overall, I think the new soraka is more engaging with the new changes, and you no longer can just rely on the base heal from W and just stay back like before. The new passive creates more of a window for the enemy to go for trades, as well as helping soraka get most out of her heal in *emergency* situations. Also, you gotta love that new effect on her E ;) I can't say much about your concerned with ignite. In the few games I have played with soraka, I haven't had much trouble with that. Even if it were a problem, I feel that because soraka is less dependent on her heal, she now has more options with her E to fight back in lane. In lane, I usually just heal my ADC even if they are above 50% or even 60-70% health, since the base heal is still pretty nice. I would never want to save my heal for when they are below 50% just to heal them back up. The only time that decision becomes valid, is during a fight, where a lot of burst is coming onto your ADC. It should be used as an *emergency* heal in those kinds of situations, not the opposite where it becomes a constant choice so that you can get more out of your W. I will try to play more soraka games, and come back to answer your concerns about the problem of Healing Reduction. Thank you for posting this thread. I now have more things to test and think about. :)
: Please Disable Thresh and Zac
I want to add onto this. So I played Thresh with the championship skin, and the moment you hit lvl 5 and lvl 6, the game bug splats on me. I think it also causes bug splats for others as well. I think I will have to do more testing to see if it has to do with the champ or the skin. Steps to reproduce: Thresh causes bug splats I. Choose Thresh (with championship skin) II. Start with E first, then Q second, then W third, then proceed to max E to lvl 5. (Not sure if ability order is necessary, let me know if it isn't.) III. You should receive a bug splat as soon as you hit lvl 5. IV. You should receive a bug splat when you hit lvl 6 as well. Hopefully I did this right. Let me know if there's anything else I'm suppose to include that I may have forgotten. Edit: Sorry for not using the correct numbers. I couldn't get it to format right. xD


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