: Cursor Update on PBE v3
Okay, I'll be honest. These just look pain ugly. The last ones looked good but had other problems (as many people pointed out), but there just don't look nice in my opinion.
: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/324564323118743552/452233077461221387/unknown.png Column 1: riots cursor Column 2: what i think is better Column 3: original cursors Column 4: riots target cursors Column 5: suggestion 1 color outside, white inside Column 6: suggestion 2 full color Column 7: suggestion 3 white bead, rest colored Column 8: original target cursors Row 1: neutral, no target Row 2: hover ally, ward outide of bush Row 3: hover enemy, target/ward impassable terrain Row 4: hover bush, target/ward bush Row 5: target champion only Row6-8: emotes, pings, shop Also: i think original target cursor should be kept with the new one, they are simple and fitting with the new design
Honestly, for the target cursors, I like the old ones more. The regular new cursor looks better overall though in my opinion.
: Cursor Update on PBE
I like it overall, but I would like to see it tilted a bit less, to match the ~ 40° tilt of the old cursor, instead of the now 45° tilt of the new one. It just feels like the tip of the cursor is too far to the left.
: Why don't have a Defeat slot? Let me cry... {{sticker:sg-soraka}} {{sticker:sg-janna}} {{sticker:cass-cry}} {{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}}
I just want some of the board stickers as emotes! These are the best ones imo: {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} {{sticker:sg-ahri-3}} {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}} {{sticker:sg-ezreal}} {{sticker:sg-janna}} {{sticker:sg-lulu}} {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} {{sticker:sg-poppy}} {{sticker:sg-soraka}}
: The Sterak's change is going to be a pretty big nerf to Tri-Force champions who don't have insane bonus AD ratios (which mean pretty big nerf to all of them as if they had insane bonus AD ratios then they'd be building bonus AD and using that to kill you instead of building Tri-Force and killing you with their base damage). Tri-Force procs do 200% of your base AD. Steraks increases your base ad by 50%. 50% * 200% = 100% so Sterak's increases the size of Tri-Force procs by 100% of base base AD (i.e. 100% of what your base AD is without Sterak's). 120 base AD is roughly the base AD at level 16, the time they would be guaranteed to have Sterak's as that is roughly the three item point and it forms part of the three item core of Tri-Force Titanic Sterak's. So this is the damage that will be lost per Tri-Force proc at that time. You'll probably get off about 5 Tri-Force procs in a fight at that time. That means you'll lose 5*120=600 damage over the course of a fight. Imagine a champion lost 600 damage off of their lvl 16 ultimate, or 300 damage off of a basic ability at max rank that gets used twice per team fight. That would be a pretty big nerf, wouldn't it? I don't see how the new items are meant to fix that. Spear of Shojin is for champions who build a ton of bonus AD which as I said isn't Tri-Force champions as if they build a ton of bonus AD to make use of bonus AD ratios then they'd be building bonus AD already instead of Tri-Force. Atma's Reckoning seems like something you'd build after Tri-Force Titanic Sterak's instead of a GA but I don't see how its so much stronger than GA, especially the buffed GA that will be going out on the same patch as it, that it would make up for the loss of 600 damage from Tri-Force procs.
I think the nerf is justified for many Triforce users like GP and Irelia, but some like Yorick could really use a buff after this, since they weren't that great to begin with.
: That's fair, we have it that way because it was originally made that way (in order to make sure the left-side was still readable regardless of the splash) I do agree that the full splashes do look nicer, but it does come with its own set of problems (e.g. for Elementalist Lux with the white background, it's actually even hard to see your name) I don't think that having a black shadow that cuts out half the splash is the best solution though, but the team that made the background picker is quite small, and they're already moving off to another project--we'll definitely put this on our backlog, but when we'll be able to get to work on this problem may be a while away unfortunately
What about a secondary option to enable or disable full splash as you wish?
Rioter Comments
: Marksman and AD Itemization Changes coming to PBE shortly
Hey Axes, a more general question: What is Riot's stance on crit RNG in the game? You are doing a massive crit item overhaul, wouldn't this be the perfect time to rework crit entirely and move away from an RNG based system to a DPS increasing system? You already need to tweak a lot of champions with build in crit scaling (like Ashe and Jhin), and since IE is changed, it makes the item changes pretty trivial, just change it to "0-20% (scaling with your "critical strike modifier") of your basic attacks damage is converted to true damage" or something like that. I don't see many potential problems that could not be addressed with work on individual champions, most of which likely already need work because of the other item changes.
: Unkillable Udyr.... Turtle stance WTF
You are reading it wrong. The 2.5% get increased by 1% for every missing %Hp , so at 0HP it would heal him for 5% of his max HP, aka 100% more than the base value
Rioter Comments
: MYMU - Vel'koz Discussion
I think this bug is already on live, but the animation of Vel's ult bugs out if he is snared while ulting. He stops turning, but the lazer still moves. Because of that, the animation and the hitbox become disjunct.
: Mid Season Mages Bug thread!
I think this bug is already on live, but the animation of Vel's ult bugs out if he is snared while ulting. He stops turning, but the lazer still moves. Because of that, the animation and the hitbox become disjunct.
: Heyas! The notes on Xerath aren't complete, and this has actually been done. Shouldn't be noticeable most of the time but hopefully people are less surprised. If the warning beam doesn't overlap your champion in some fashion, you shouldn't be getting damaged.
Can you do that for Jhin as well? I feel like his W always hits me, when it looks like I am way higher (further to the top of the map) then the indicator. http://plays.tv/s/KmBVxnoicyWF
: I haven't yet gotten to play this new Cassiopeia and likely wont until the end of the week but let me say that from a purely design perspective this update is easily one that I find very impressive.
I agree. You can see at first glance that many, many hours went into coming up with this, and even more into making it somewhat work.
: MYMU - Cassiopeia Discussion
That sounds so crazy that I don't know what to think about it. I would love to test it, but I can't play on the PBE (500+ ping, I can barely even connect to a game). So, how big is her W AoE? The cast paradigm seems different, so I guess the area affected will be as well.
Rioter Comments
: yes but the common sense here suggests low popularity, not low stats, even though he needs to be reworked in my opinion, buff and nerf is pointless if no one plays him but the pros, I mean there is the threshold of fun and playable, he has none in normal and ranked scene, if you watch the video above, faker played azir but was doing misplays, his kit is new and introduces a new mechanic to the game which makes it difficult to adjust and it came with nice bugs at first, I played him a lot at first because he resembles the god Ra, which is my favorite of the egyptian gods with anubis, so when the teaser came out one year before his release I hoped to see something like phoenix from dota, well.... sort of, I mean his ulty being a giant ball of fire making him immune and doing something in the fight and anyway to get to that direction of a mages but not an emperor who commands up to 3 soldiers, because in a sense he seems out of theme to command 2 soldiers instead of just attacking the enemy himself, either seems like a puppet master or a lazy sandlord who makes puppets to attack from a distance, I say lazy because the ranged now is near his own, the range to cast a soldier, its like playing pokemon and having the pokemon do the work. I mean, in a common sense it makes no sense, its impractical. So I was hyped for the release of this champion but disappointing of his thematic and abilities. Illaoi seems way stronger and has similar theme, commanding but she also uses her own attacks. I like how he is mobile tho, and I would like to see 3 abilities that synergise together in a sense of combo utility like his azir drift trick.
Well, I personally love Azir, because I like his gameplay (I have waited for an AP marksman for a long time) and I like how his theme fits his kit. He is an emperor, and like a real royal he lets others do the work for him :P He also resembles Horus as well, who was the god of Pharaohs and the sky. And not every champion has to be popular. There are many strong champions out there that are almost never played, even ones that are easy to learn overall. But some people love to play them. Everyone likes different things. Not every champion can be Lee and be in almost every game, some champions will always be less popular, and Azir is not even at the bottom. And Azir is still really strong. If he was not strong overall, he would not be played in high elo and pro play, because they don´t play weak champions (frequently). Maybe he is not the best in low elo SoloQ, but so are many other champions that are really good overall.
: Azir
The problem is that he is still really strong in Pro-Play. You still saw Azir in Worlds very often. If they buff him for "normal" players, he will be too strong for pros who use him. Right now they are thinking of a way to buff him for "normal" players, but nerfing him in a way that will only hit pros. However, it is not easy to come up with a way to do this. He is similar to Lee and Vayne in that sense, but those are so popular that many people will still play them, even though they basically suck with them and only win about 30-40% of their games with them. Azir was not even popular when he was really strong for everyone. And now most people don´t like him, *and* can't play him, so they just stop using him.
: Rift Herald PBE Feedback Thread
I would like an indicator for when the eye opens on the back of the Herald similar to Fiora´s passive. That way it would be easier to give it over to someone, instead of suddenly dealing a large chunk of damage once it opens.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Really, as long as her numbers are not way too low (any I bet they won´t) and I am not forced into crit, I will like they update. Her passive still feels weak, and her Q feels a bit generic, but I play her fo her passive, W and E. And going super fast from lv 11 onward is nice. I also think you should re add the "speed-particles" Valor had before, so it actually feels like you go fast. And maybe consider still switching the two out. I don´t need him to attack, but Valor looks nicer that the two together imo.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
I would also be really grateful if you could keep the BotrK - Ghostblade - Tanky (Dead Man´s) build alive. I love playing her top, and I don´t want to build crit on her, and I don´t want to stack AD just because her passive scales only with those, and does not have a base damage anymore. Because building crit is only really good if also building a lot AD and AS. I just want 2-3 damage items, not 5.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
I like the idea some people had to reduce her MS while channeling her ult (like Xerath Q), instead of standing still. Standing still is not really fitting, when you actually want to go faster.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
One thing I really want to see, since it just interrupts her laneing so much: If you hit your Q on minions and champions, make the mark prioritize champions please. Hitting champions who stand in in their minions and not being able to mark them just feels bad.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
So, I checked it out, and the passive change is great. Being able to do three fast passive attacks is really nice. One thing I really dislike though: Her ult still cost a *lot* of mana. Spending 120 mana every time you use it just seems way too much. I actually expected it to have no cost at all. In any case, more than 50 mana for it seems weird. It feels like a mount, and spending mana for mounting a mounts just does not feel right.
: Smaller 5.22 Marksmen Changes PBE Feedback Thread
Why did you change Ashe´s passive again Q_Q I liked that there was finally a ADC who can´t crit. I dislike crit, because I dislike RNG in League. I never played her though, so who knows how much this actually does.
: I'm not going to say much until I get to try her out on PBE although I am disappointed she was shifted from duelist/strong laner to a heavy roaming/map pressure champ, but I guess that's just personal taste. I am wondering why you guys didn't take this opportunity to do something interesting with her W? It already seemed way outclassed by Ashe's E and Kalista's W, moreso now because it does nothing for Valor form.
I actually wonder if she is not even stronger in lane in some matchups. Toplane not many champions would actually get to AA you anyway, and the passive reset on the Q seems better. You also get more MS from it with the W passive. And in bot, maybe dealing more damage is actually better? Who knows. Before her passive dealt stupid damage early game, it if still does, she could still be good. Who knows, I will stay optimistic.
: **Sometimes Red posts can be a bit confusing. So I've gone ahead and written up a translation of the latest update to the main post (since its pretty long)** > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=PE1LJTOM,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-28T18:18:29.343+0000) > I've been spending that last several hours taking in everyone's thoughts on the changes. I fully understand that many of you are unhappy, mainly with the blind removal, but also with the R changes. "We've seen all of your negative feedback about our changes" > One question that I've seen pretty regularly is why I would remove Quinn's identity, and I wanted to address that particular concern. I believe this concern results from the fact that various players have different visions for what Quinn's identity is, as she is pulled in many different directions. Depending on the player, she may resonate most strongly as a duelist, an assassin, a splitpusher, a melee fighter, a scout, or something else entirely. "She was versatile, we aim to change that" >In choosing where we wanted Quinn to shine, we took these things into consideration, and the conclusion we came to was that she would be the most interesting, unique marksman possible if she had map presence like no other marksman (or potentially no other champion) in the game. She was not going to be the best assassin, the best duelist, or the best splitpusher. There was just no way. Most of the players that wanted that version of Quinn to remain were just asking for buffs for their main, and there wasn't really much room to work with there. "Instead of making her versatile, we want her to be an ADC. So f*** off ok? We promise to make her a super unique ADC! You see, with quinn you will have to right click just a bit differently. Make sure you right click the people that get targeted! Surely quinn will now be played every game, she won't just be another boring ADC that no one will play because vayne and jinx exist (btw we're buffing vayne again but its k LOL)" > I understand the shock value that comes with changes like these, but I also know that no one here has even played the changes yet, so this is emotional feedback at this point. "Even though we took away a huge clutch move and half of her kit, your all just being emotional! Wouldn't you rather quinn be a top tier right clicker instead of a fun character to play? All you noobs need to go watch some streams or pro players to get some sense beat into you. Who cares about how fun she is as long as she can do more damage!" >I know that no one was necessarily asking for these specific changes, but I do think that there is something about Quinn players that they want a compelling, unique play experience. For all the various things that Quinn meant to Quinn players, they all seemed to value that she was a unique experience to them that they could not get elsewhere. I intend to keep that element of uniqueness true of this version of Quinn as well. I won't promise you that she's going to have her blind back, or that I will make changes for every request I get here, but I do plan to deliver on a truly unique play style that no other champion has, and I would love feedback that helped us arrive at that end. "We know you want a fun character, but that's just not going to happen k? I'VE already decided what I want her to be. We're not revoking our changes no matter how much the entire quinn playerbase wants it. So just bend over k? Go ahead and keep leaving feedback that I will dismiss as emotional or 'problematic' so you feel like you actually have a voice" > I'm not asking anyone to act like they like something they don't, but I am asking that your feedback be aimed at helping us arrive at the best possible end product, as that is the goal here. Going into her first day of PBE, we are aiming for her to be a marksman that excels at map presence over all others out there. If you feel like she's not living up to that, it would help me greatly to let me know that she isn't, and why. "You can go ahead and keep complaining about us ruining your favorite champion, but I really don't care ok. I want you to bug test my new vision of quinn instead. Tell me if you don't feel like shes living up to MY vision while playing her, I'm gonna go get wasted and maybe buff vayne some more. > Anyway, it's important to me that everyone knows their feedback is not falling on deaf ears, because it's not. I'm looking forward to her first day of PBE tomorrow. "Oh btw ilu bby, have fun playing my new character" {{champion:133}} RIP
First off: Marksman =/= ADC Azir is a Marksman. Urgot is one. Quinn was one, and will always be one, as long her her main source of damage is AAs and she is ranged. Even if you play her top. Versatile is not always good. If she does many things okayish, there is little room to give her something she does really well, because in that case she would be too strong, since she still does all the other stuff. A rework has (almost) nothing to do with power, and her getting picked every game. You should not pick her because she is super strong, but because she does something no one else does, at least in my opinion. The "entire" Quinn playerbase. Well I am part of this playerbase, but I like the direction. Don´t speak for others (also, she does not even do more damage than before). If it gets really bad feedback, *after* it hits the PBE and people actually played it, they will most likely change things. There is also this thing called vocal minority. The likes on this post actually indicates that more people who read this like it, than people dislike it.
: Not only that... you guys again screwed with her lane assignment... And the Blind made her jungle viable so she didn't each too much damage from the Monsters. Jungle Quinn was one of my absolute favorite ways to play her & it's something I've requested you guys keep intact and/or enhance constantly. Please fix this. Quinn is ruined in this state, nearly everything I loved about her spoiled or removed.
But you get the double passive proc. Her passive deals a lot of damage, so maybe she can still clear well? I don´t know. But the faster you kill the camp, the less damage you take right?
: I don't have a big problem with the R change in itself. It seems really cool and useful to be able to place yourself wherever you are needed or want to be on the map. The one thing with removing the damage from the ult is that the damage potential of Quinn takes a huge hit, which is her main job. So that needs to be balanced elsewhere which seems like what you are trying to do with the whole Harrier changes and guaranteed marks on Q. The biggest problem that I have with the R change is that it kind of tarnishes her uniqueness as a champion concept wise. She was arguably the only Champion in the game to be an actual partnership, and her Ultimate currently shows that really well in a unique manner. Almost where Nunu and Willump are supposed to have this partnership, but Nunu's abilities don't really show that connection at all. It plays and feels like just one entity, where as playing Quinn actually feels like you have this partner in crime assisting you. And being able to tag Valor in and utilize Valor's unique strengths and weaknesses separate from Quinn herself are a great way to show how much they depend on each other for success. I feel like Valor now plays as much part as a mount, just being there to give you a lift from place to place. Valor goes from being a partner and capable fighter to just a form of travel.
I agree. I am still really exited for the triple passive proc with Q and E, and having no CD on my ult.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
As a Quinn top player, I really like the ult change. I am concerned about the removal of the dash (E) during her ult, but since it no longer has a cooldown, I still like the idea. I will have to test it. I am concerned that her Q no longer blinding reduces her dueling power, but refreshing her passive is really strong, if it still deals as much damage as on life. What I love most about her is her passive and going super fast as a bird, and as long as her W remains unchanged, I will still play her. I would like Valor to replace her though, even if just visually. He looks so cool. And even the thought of him carrying her seems weird.
: Zed Q+W Combo Lacking Counterplay (Bug)
I am pretty sure this should not happen. As far as I know you need to cast W before you cast Q for it to wark. Well I am not a frequent Zed player, so...
: > The harsh HP/lvl nerf: I don't really understand the reason for it. Isn't Garen supposed to be a big, beefy juggernaut? Especially since Darius' HP gets buffed... Garen is indeed supposed to be a big, beefy guy. With improved Health itemization being put in for Garen, that seemed like a fair tradeoff, but if we're off on that, we can recalibrate. > Courage's passive: By its nature, that ability is a one-point wonder for Garen. Wouldn't it be better if you could build up to the max value (30) at rank 1, and later ranks increase the build-up speed by a lot? Updated Courage today to make it a better one point wonder. > Decisive's Silence Duration: It is Garen's only CC effect, and the one thing he has to make sure mobile enemies eat a big Judgement if they make the mistake of getting too close. With Judgment doing more damage now, it seemed fair that he didn't silence for so long. 1.5 may be too low, but 2.5 guarantees basically a full Judgment, which just felt over the top. The thinking here is that the damage package is more interesting if it's really dangerous and opponents have more opportunity to play around it, rather than less dangerous with opponents having little opportunity for play against. > Judgement's changes: I love this for a Garen who builds Black Cleaver. The whole Villain mechanic: Amazing idea, and it might be something that makes Garen really an option for a team looking to shut down a potential single-champion snowball in the later stages of the game. Glad you enjoy these components of the changes. Thanks for the direct feedback.
The new bruiser items are not good on Garen, and the only item with changes to it´s HP value is Randuin´s, and it has it´s HP reduced. Warmog´s was never efficient on Garen, as I explained in my other comment. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Y7ELMJAK-garen-pbe-changelist-and-feedback-thread?comment=0045 So overall, he will just end up with less Hp overall, or a lot less efficient items, which will leave him at much lower effective HP due to a lack of resistences without really gaining anything else that really benefits him. An on hit AoE? Why that, I have my E for AoE and I don´t want onhit. A very situational passive shield, that will only work once I take a lot of damage? So if I do a good job at avoiding damage, I am punished for it, and if I build resistences or activate my W I will take a lot less damage in actual Health (not effective Health), so the chace of it every activating is really low anyway. A super regen passive? I already have that, I don´t really need more of it in most cases. Sure, it is nice to have, but I would much rather have more damage or actualy tankyness by building a resistences focused item or a hybrid item. Non of them are really efficient on him. I think you fell into the "Garen heals by a % so he scales with actual Health" trap, because that is not true (see my other comment). I agree with the other points though (kinda).
: With the introduction of some new items catered toward juggernauts, we expect it to be pretty common for Garen to hit ~250 AD by end game.
But none of the new items is good on Garen, since he uses his autos very rarely, and the other is highly situational.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
About these changes: I love the E change. More damage at all ranks, but only if you manage to pull it off. Nice. "We wanted something for new players to discover, and for old players to say, “Yeah, they got it.” So...that’s what we aimed for, we’ll see if we were successful." - George Krstic about the GP update. I think the E goes in the same direction, keep this up. Get this for his W and we are all good. I still don´t like the missing tenacity on his W, and I miss the % Armor/MR, but I guess I could live with it, even though I don´t understand why the tenacity had to go. It is not like he was hard to peel with it on. He was still effected by CC, and as soon as his Q ran out, he had no way to close the gap anymore. I also think the silence nerf will really, really hurt him, but we will see about that. I still think 10% of the targets max Health in one Judgment is not noticeble, unless your taget has tons of health. The true damage ult however seems really powerful. We will see. I like this much more than the original changes. I still believe the villan mechanic is kinda gimmicky and not really useful. I also disagree for some champions being balanced around being nice for starters. It is nice they are easy to learn and teach you important game mechaics, but i do not think they should be balanced to fit this theme.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
> flat resistances synergize well with Health scaling that Garen has on his passive and other items Just to make it clear: Garen´s passive does NOT scale with Health. It scales with effective Health. Yes, higher HP mean that he will regen more with his passive, but the more armor and MR he has, the more every point is worth. He has no direct scaling with Health, except for his new W, since it gives flat Armor/MR now. It is the same as with Zac. Stacking HP on Zac in not any more effective than stacking HP on any other champion, since his passive is a %-heal. This is a common trap, but if you do the math, you will see that the effective HP are just increased by the % either one of them heals up for. To make an example: Garen has 100 health and no armor at all. His effective HP are 100. By acquiring 10 HP he will have 110 health and 110 effective health. By aquiering 10 armor he will have 100 health and 110 effective health against physical damage. Health*(1 + Armor / 100) = 100 * (1 + 10/100) = 110 In case one, his passive at Lv 16 will regen 11 health per 10 seconds. Those 11 health are worth 11 effective health. In case two, his passive al Lv 16 will regen 10 health per 10 seconds. Those 10 health are worth 11 effective health. Health*(1 + Armor / 100) = 10 * (1 + 10/100) = 11 As you can see, the amount of effective HP Garen gains with his passive does not scale with Health, but with effective Health. Since his W gave him %-increase on Armor/MR , he was a resistence stacking tank, as those stats were a lot more efficient on him, both in Gold- and Slot-efficiency. That was one of the reasons why Warmog´s was not a good item on Garen. It was not efficient on him, and thanks to his passive, he did not really need the regen on it anyway. I still think garen would be better of with items like Sunfire and Randuin´s, even with his new W, since the regen stat is wasted on, and would just be overkill. Items that give both Health and resistences are better, since they give a lot more effective HP than Warmog´s gives on it´s own. Health is actually worse than resistences in general, because % based damage is lot more common than true damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=FafliX,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2015-08-05T02:08:18.701+0000) > > Though about Maw as a damage item? Gives the most AD in the game apart from SotO. > About everything else, I agree. > > The new tank items don´t fit him. They are nice for Darius, but Garen does not need the mat all, since he barely uses autos anyway and he does not want to teamfight, and he already has his W to block the burst. > > Yomuu´s could still be good, or you just go full tank to compensate for the W nerf. I still thing they should give the W the % armor/MR back. > I really miss the resistences stacking of the old Garen, HP stacking just does not fit him in my opinion. > > I also don´t get the E movement speed nerf. It really hurts his laneing, as everyone just walks away and reengages after your E ends. It is hard to even get 2 ticks of damage out. > > Also, I really noticed the reduced silence duration. It really hurt in the Darius matchup. > > The villan mechanic was weird. The bonus damage was hardly noticeable, except for the true damage ultimate. > > Also: The E CD nerf is not noticeable. The 2 seconds max are pretty small, and you will get those very rarely. I do frequently build Maw on live but situationally. Feels weird building an offense+defensive hybrid item when all I want is damage. I actually did end up building that as my item though, for lack of a better option. Agreed the tank items don't fit him. Youmuu's is good but without the crit it feels way less desirable. E movement speed does hurt. I was so impressed by the extra damage I didn't notice that much but it does make a predictable champ even more predictable and easy to play around. Can see in certain matchups the silence hurting but didn't notice in my match. Agreed 100% on the villain system feeling lackluster and unnoticeable. Cool, shiny lights - the dead guy is extra dead.
I would much rather have a MS boost while moving towards the Villan.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
A quick note: I think, you guys at Riot know what you are doing for the most part. I apprreciate almost everything you do. However, I think you need to work on how you communicate with the players. This is the one of 2 champion update posts that have overall negative votes and comments. The reason for this is similar in both cases (Garen and Skarner). Both updates seem like a "I want to create this kind of champion and these are up for reworks so let's just change them into this kind of champion" (note that this is a quote). I patially agree with this. Some of the chages seem very forced to me. I don´t like the overall direction of turning Garen into the one who should build damage while Darius is the one who now gets to build almost full tank with a few HP/AD items. Why is that so? I don´t understand why their roles have to be swapped. I really like the villan idea, but why change the rest of his kit as well? Why does his sub-role (or whatever it is called) have to chage from super tanky bruiser who runs at you, to not so tanky bruiser who runs at you but deals good damage. That was Darius role so far. I think this is what most people here dislike the most, even those who play him more damage oriented anyway. "It feels like a chage for the sake of chage." But the changes are not the main problem. Things can be tweaked, ect. It is that most players (including me) don´t understand the reasoning behind those chages. It is not that the ideas are not nice, or he is too weak or no fun to play (well sometimes it is, but that is not the point). We just do not understand why those chages need to be made. What is wrong with the champion in his current state? Why are these the chages you want to go for? What other changes did you have in mind? Why were those not impemented? Many players want explanations. They want to know the why, not only the what. We can see what the chages will do. We want to know why they have to do that. Why does power need to be shifted in this way, ect. I am sure you have your reasons. I am sure those chages are not for the sake of chage. All we want is you to tell us those reasons. Explain your thought-process to us.
: I like the villian system, even when it is so centered around dmg instead of actually catching the villian. The villian should be scared to meet Garen on the field. But currently it seems like a range champ will say "Hi Garen, even with your full item build and me only having boots you will never catch me." I am ok with the silence duration nerf, even when I think 1.6-2.0 sec would still be needed. Or think about reducing the CD every time Garen gets CCed. That way he would have a bit more mobility and the silence would come in small but more frequent waves. Also removing the crit scaling is ok. Moving around some base stats is ok, but the lower HP will hurt him a lot and also the weaker passive. Do you want to force people to buy the Warmogs? His passive was not really that strong till it reached the 2% and even then it was only useful for sieges or when you run around a lot and never go B. It was not like the passive had the potential to turn around a fight or even decide a fight. To the bad things: - W needs way too long to farm up, especially because E > Q > W still applies - you need the Q speed more than ever after the E MS nerf - and in the late game Garen doesn't splitpush and as when the team grps the ADC or the mid laner takes and also needs the farm. So getting to 10 stacks is ok, but getting to 30 is really hard. Also without the tenacity the skill looks underwhelming overall. It should have some kind of MS boost that increases its duration or strength based on the allies/enemies around him. Maybe even take MS from every enemy around him and give that as a short term aura to his team mid fight. Because when it doesn't help him to avoid the CC, it should give him a way to move to the point where he needs to be. - The E changes are horrible. I like the tick increase with his lvls, making the power curve way smoother, but the -20% MS is terrible. That combined with a 1.5 sec silence mid to late game doesn't give the enemy to counterplay Garen, but makes Garen counterplay himself and that is not soemthing Riot should aim for. A champ should not counter himself by trying to do his job. Even if Garen moves nearly into the enemy and the enemy has no mobility skill and no CC and it is a 1v1, he should be able to avoid 1/4th of the ticks if not 1/3rd. That means around 7 ticks at max lvl and that again means that you need 299 AD to get to your old E dmg. So Garen is forced to either get a Frozen Mallet, BC or a teammate that is always at his side only to CC the target he wants to reach. He can't do anything alone except for zoning an enemy away from him (which is not a lot, because a decent ADC can even circle around Garen and Garens control zone is pretty small). - new items and Garen: I think it is only Sterak's Gage which is good for Garen, but at the same time Garen then doesn't want to use his W before the shield activates and he doesn't want to be too tanky or the shield will never proc. Enemies can also easily ignore Garen and his taniness or his dmg because of the way you can kite him around. In the end I would have liked to see Garen having the tools to be the master of his own actions and not lay all the tools into the enemies hands. If the enemy is a bad player, Garen will stomp him. If the enemy has 0 mobility and it is a 1v1 and Garen surprises the enemy he will probably be able to kill him. But in all other situations Garen is not the one in control, but the enemy. **The villian system would be a way to do so, but for that Riot may need to change it a bit. Garen does not only deal % true dmg to the enemy and ults him with true dmg, but also his Q gets a % of the villians MS and scales with its AD (if close) and the W will take a % of the villians Armor/MR and that could be done with Garens AS (passive) and give him more MS the further the Villian is away (1400 range and gives +80 at max range and +0 at 400 range). It would work similar to trundles ult, but instead it does not take the stats away from the enemy, but buff Garen and his abilites based on the enemies stats. So a fast ADC can't get away that easily, a villian at range has it harder to hold him at high range or even hit him with skillshots, a tank has a tanky Garen in front of him that can deal some true dmg and finish him. That would actually change Garens aproach based on who the villian is. Does he get the tankiness from a tank or the MS and dmg from a mobile target or a DD?** Edit: If the W would be good enough to make boots of switness an actual option instead of merc treads, the E slow would not be as problematic. Together with the mastery it would be a 40% slow reduction, meaning only 12% less MS towards champs hit by it. But sacrificing real combat stats and also 2 talent points towards it seems to be a bad option currently because your early game is not really strong when rank 2 and 3 E are falling off and you need AD to make up for it, slow reduction to ne able to actually do the dmg and tank stats because your lower HP and slow scaling W don't offer much power.
I don´t agree with your propsed chages, but I agree with the problems you depict. I faced the same problems in my Garen games,
: @RiotRepertoir: **GAMEPLAY IMPRESSIONS** Played a PBE match with Garen and here are my impressions of the changes for now. **Impressions** - The icon beside your HP bar that indicates who the current Villain is is TOO BIG. Like, way too big. It was freaking me out that I had a Blitzcrank or Lucian icon in the middle of my screen that I couldn't get rid of. Very distracting and covers up valuable real estate on screen. Please move down to the bottom UI. - Judgement does a lot of damage. Like, a lot of damage. Wasn't expecting it to hit that hard minus the crit damage builds, but it hits hard. I did feel like I was missing more minions farming with it though. Just a feeling, but felt like in general the timing wasn't last hitting minions like it usually does so was missing more CS than normal with it. Could be wrong. - Didn't notice the lowered silence on Q. Enemies were dying quickly with Q+E so it was unnoticeable. - You're squishier. The W nerf is noticeable and you're squishier. W was always a one-point wonder and now it gives you 10 flat Armor and MR until the very late game. Combined with the HP nerf you feel squishier. - The Villain mechanic combined with the extra damage on E is fun in the sense that you absolutely demolish someone, but it felt super unnecessary. Felt like ultra-overkill. Great, he died in 3 spins instead of 5. *Shrug* I guess it'd be a tad more impressive if it was on tanks, but most of the time the villain is APC or ADC and in those cases they're squishy. Would love to see replaced with stickiness/speed. The damage is overkill. They run from you regardless of being the target or no. Doesn't feel like it changes the gameplay at all. **Bugs** - E/Judgement doesn't do any damage to dragon. Tried multiple times. I did have the new Gage item so not sure if related to that, but was unable to get E to do damage on dragon. - Had several delays when I ulted and then tried to move into a different attack command. Seemed to only happen on Villain. A bit of a stall if you will. - Q still cannot hit Nexus and cannot be canceled, so if you hit Q while trying to bring down Nexus (like you would on an inhibitor or turret) you're stuck standing there for the full duration of Q unable to kill Nexus. Only option is to find a minion/enemy champion/turret to hit. If none are there, you sit there with nothing to do and look like you're gloating. Either allow Q to hit Nexus like everything else or while Q is active just allow a regular auto-attack to go through. **Items** I did not like the new build path. - Without crit being a desirable stat, there's no clear big ticket item any more. It used to be Infinity Edge which would make Garen go Super Saiyan. Now you're like, "Bloodthirster? Well I don't need lifesteal. Ravenous/Titanic Hydra? I absolutely don't need a single bit of AoE. Trinity Force? Wasted on me." There's not a go-to big ticket damage item like there used to be. Makes the build feel very strange. You get Black Cleaver, you get a bruiser (tanky damage hybrid) item, and then you're sitting there scratching your head. Youmuu's? Nope. Infinity Edge? Nah. I want to do some damage so not really inclined for more tankiness. Last Whisper is okay but not that expensive, and after that it's unclear. The new items do not fill this hole well in my opinion. If I'm using my damage and speediness and bruiser-style to split push, duel, and pick off targets then I'm entirely uninclined to buy the new tank items. - No Sunfire Cape as a core item feels blasphemous and gross. Sunfire = Garen.
Though about Maw as a damage item? Gives the most AD in the game apart from SotO. About everything else, I agree. The new tank items don´t fit him. They are nice for Darius, but Garen does not need the mat all, since he barely uses autos anyway and he does not want to teamfight, and he already has his W to block the burst. Yomuu´s could still be good, or you just go full tank to compensate for the W nerf. I still thing they should give the W the % armor/MR back. I really miss the resistences stacking of the old Garen, HP stacking just does not fit him in my opinion. I also don´t get the E movement speed nerf. It really hurts his laneing, as everyone just walks away and reengages after your E ends. It is hard to even get 2 ticks of damage out. Also, I really noticed the reduced silence duration. It really hurt in the Darius matchup. The villan mechanic was weird. The bonus damage was hardly noticeable, except for the true damage ultimate. Also: The E CD nerf is not noticeable. The 2 seconds max are pretty small, and you will get those very rarely.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
So, these changes will shift his focus from tankyness towards damage, right? But why is that so. Darius alreay fills that role, why can´t Garen be the really tanky one, who just never dies if played correctly? Yes, you have to snowball your lane to be a huge damage threat, but that was the point. He is not very reliable in the lategame, so you need to get a lead. Why is a playstyle like this a problem? Lastly, a question: How much do you play Garen yourself, Repertoir? I would just know how much you play Garen, and what you like/dislike about his kit. I personally like how much of a lanebully he is. I love to play really agressive at every stage of the game, so playing lanebullies and getting an early lead is what I try to do every game. I try to then become super tanky and just do whatevery i want, diving through multiple towers, ect. I just want to apply as much pressure as I can, and maybe even get some kills, just waiting at the enemy Red-buff for the jungler to show up. The thing I really dislike about this is, how he is a lot less tanky later on. I would rush a Sunfire in 90% of my Garen games, and often even follow with a Thronmail, in other cases with SV or BC, depending on the enemy team. In teamfights I end up peeling for my backline by silencing and ulting assassins, or zoning the enemy backline. In the rare cases where I could get close to the enemy backline, I would kill them obviously, but that did not happe very often, but I had no problem with that. I would also splitpush a lot. Since I am so tanky, I can easily dive carries who try to defend their towers. I would not even kill them in many cases, but just get them low and force them back and heal up with my passive afterwards while pushing the tower. Like I already said, I am afraid he will no longer be like Mundo, just doing whatevery he wants applying pressure, and more of a Darius, who´s only job is it to ult someone. I am afraid that he will be way too relyant on the villan system and not be albe to really choose his target. I am afraid that he will no longer become the super tanky unkillable pile of muscles once you get a few kills in lane. He is very weak if he does not snowball,andI really like that about him, because I fell like I have to win my lane, and I can´t just relax. I have to force myself to play good and outplay my opponent. because I don´t have to worry about messing up any mechanics, I can focus on punishing my opponent once he steps too far foreward or makes mistakes in general. But if I pull it of, I am rewarded with great tankyness through my W. His W is what made him so snowbally. I know that is probably why you changed it so much (kinda gutted it, it seems pretty useless now, with a max of 30 armor and MR at lv 18, compared to the 50 I got from it midgame in the past, but we will see), but why is snowballing no longer allowed? I know it can be frustrating to play against a fed enemy, but the enemy team made the mistake n the past, by letting Garen win his lane without interfering. It is not like Garen is hard to shut down with ganks or anything. I liked how he had his very clearly defined powerspike around lv 6-11 and fell of pretty hard if he did not manage to make anything out of it. Other champions are allowed to do this. Irelia, Riven and Vlad for example are allowed to spike really hard with their first item and their lv 6 - lv 13. They can snowball and become borderline unsoppable if they get a few kills in the midgame. I don´t play a lot of Vald, but I know that Irelia falls off later on as well, since her true damage is not enough to one-shot carrys anymore. Riven gets peeled in the lategame, since her gapclosers take a while to reach someone. She also looses damage if she uses them to engage. Garen worked similar, just that he became really tanky, instead of dealing absurd amounts of damage. He bacame nearly unkillable, unless you had a Vayne or Kog'Maw on your team. But you were still able to kite him in teamfights. You could get rid of him. CC shut him down, even with is W on. Inhibitor towers are had to dive if someone clears the wave fast enough, even with really high amount of armor. I just fear that all this will be taken away from me. Sorry for the huge wall of text. It just became bigger and bigger as I was writing. I know I did not talk about the changes in detail, I was just talking about Garen´s core existence (at least the way I played him). Also, this is not really well structured, I am sorry. Maybe I will take my time and rewrite it in the future. I will check it out on the PBE. The true damage ult seems super strong and maybe his gmaplay will stay mostly the same, we will see. It will be hard for me to really check this out though, since the power level on the PBE is so varying and I am playing from Europe, so my 300 ping kinda hanycaps me there. I hope this does not appear to only be whining about chage. I like chage (I even got to accep the Karma chages, although they made her much worse early game, and I kinda miss my lv 2 trades/first bloods with her. I told you I like early agression). I think there are many nice ideas behind those chages, but some just feel too pushed and not really fitting in my opinion.
: His W is pretty darn boring, but individual abilities can be somewhat bland if there is added complexity to the kit elsewhere. In Garen's case, we wanted to keep him available as a beginner player option, and we took some complexity out of W active, put we put some back in the R passive, E activation, and W passive farming.
I always thought his W was the most fun part of his kit. To take a Morg Q for your carry and barely stop moving, or to tank the enemy carries for long enough, so your team can win the fight. You did not even need to get close to the nemy carries, just running at them and zoning them was enough for most teamfights. I think it is really fun to become super tanky.
: Shit, changes are coming faster than I can follow! I got to admit I'm glad that even if they're not exactly the changes I'd love, I'm glad Karma has some riot attention! (Tbh I don't think she needed changes but eh! "Never fear change.") Yeah, I agree that the 0.9 ratio and longer root on her W would prolly probably make her Queen of (tower)baiting. Plus, I level up W against champs like Vlad or Fizz (or Yasuo) and that changes emphasizes her strength as counter to champs with untargetable champs. I'm not sure if it will hurt her early lane. Healing from monsters seems a bit too good... Karma has always been hidden-strong imho, maybe not at pro tier, but she's definitely better than what people usually expect. "WTF Q DMG"
I just feel like the very early Lv 2 powerspike will not be as strong anymore, with the Mantra-W + Q trade. You would always win that and get the enemy on ~30% HP. But really, it will still be strong, and her lategame scaling with the passive buff and essentially +30% AP ratio on her max-damage-combo, she might deal even more damage than she does anyway. I mean ~800 base damage and 150% AP ratio on the matra Q is strong anyway.
: I still don't get into pbe because of the queue at login. so last 3 days mostly been on the boards. everyone is talking about ekko but I wanna see how the karma changes work and experience it for myself. only thing I can do now is read about others opinions and feedback.
They way Katma is right now, you should not play her. Wait for the PBE update next week, she will get some more changes. The version now still has the heal on her W removed I think. Maybe not, hard to keep up with so many updates while not being able to log in and test it because of the huge queue.
: Oh yes, the people who never log in could be just as much as part of the issue. "I have a PBE account? Cool I'll keep it for when a really cool champion comes out and spam him in norms." Yea, that is an issue if there are a **ton** of accounts like this and that is why we now have "Over 9000" with a 2-4 hour log in queue.
Actually, it has been a long time since I logged in, because I can´t play from europe (constant 600 ping). However, I like to use the forum just to give my 2 cents about changes. I know you can´t judge most changes just by looking at them, but especially if I play lot of the champion in question, discussing about them is still possible.
: This is one of the most well-written Karma post I've ever seen. I'm a Karmain since s1, I just wanna add my two cents about something you casually mentionned, but is essential to the character in my humble opinion: her turn-around/baiting power. The old Karma was good at that. Like crazy good. Team running away? Mantra Q (AoE heal based on missing health) Mantra E (hyper shieldbombing, plus the best shield in the game in raw protection - apart ol' Sion, but eh) and you can get the upper hand pretty easily. You could never die under turret, even if you were at 50 hp. Mantra E, mantra Q, tadam. That part of Karma didn't die. The speed boost from mantra E still allows for quick re-engaging, while her W allows some great duels/baits. The shieldbombing isn't really as glorious as it used to, but heck it still feels good! Maybe I'm a noob, but I'd personnally prefer for Karma to be unable to target creep with her W. 1) Bot lane, targeting minion by mistake. Oops. 2) In lane, considering your only source of sustain is your W, your opponent will usually be smart and try to escape your range, making some nice mindgames and stuff. If you could recover hp by RW minions, your opponent would have little counterplay. Anyway apparently these changes turned into something else (see attachment). While I can see how a longer root would be attractive (teamfights!), I fail to see how it'd please a Karmid or Kartop during laning: while your opponents are rooted for the bonus 0.75 sec, what can you do? Unleash a Q? Unlikely, considering the CD... In a duel situation, I can only see an AD Karma using that... It forces Karma to choose between healing/running away and offense whereas you currently get a bit of both with RW. Which better fits Karma imo, you're never sure if she's gonna turn around and fight. Maybe a nice gimmick would be to remove the damage component, but reward RWing by making it further reduce the mantra CD to the point of nearly allowing RW+RQ combos. It'd boost her optimal combo (healed plus damage) but force her to go close range. Risk/reward thingy! Maybe add something like "a broken tether makes the mantra cooldown go _higher _ by 2-3 sec"? The W has always been a way of quickly regaining the mantra CD, lowering it by 7~9 sec depending on the autoattacks/Q you put while the opponent is rooted. I hope I was clear and all, it's late and stuff. {{champion:43}}
Actually, he presented a new change: https://twitter.com/ricklessabandon/status/599423645300162560 I think this would actually be okay. I will still miss her Shield Bomb, but the passive buff and the W AP ratio change will will makee for it, I think. However, my concern is her becoming too strong. This WILL hurt her early laning a bit, but it will also buff her late- and midgame a lot. I hope she will not be too strong with these changes.
: Follow-up on Karma's Mantra W changes (second iteration)
I agree. I don´t understand why she has to be changed. Riot doesn´t have to change her just because some people want Jungle Karma that badly.
: New Karma W (and E), why I think it takes away a fun gameplay element and my solution.
I did a big post with my thoughts about it, if anyone is interested. It is a bit long though: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/xILXjT1H-my-thoughts-about-the-pbe-karma-changes
: tbh If they just kept Karma's Current Heal/Bait i'd be happy.(Minus monsters cause 40% missing hp heal in the jungle would be crazy) I do seriously think that the changes made to her sustain really really hurts Karma, and that tied with the loss of the E damage is kind of the nail in the coffin for anything Karma used to be. As much as people bitch and moan about Post-work Karma, at heart she was still the samel a mage/support who had really good skirmish and bait potential. Her shield bomb, as much as it was nerfed was still a valuable part of the kit and was a really unique mechanic for her. As a support main i love what these changes can do for her, but as someone who plays Karma in all sorts of rolls i can't help grieving for the loss of her Bait potential.
I will also miss baiting the enemy botlane if you are on low HP just to heal with your W and kill them.
: I agree. I like mage and support Karma and these changes basically make her support only.
Yeah, and it would kill Mage-Support Karma. With this she will be like Sona, who can kinda build AP, but actually does no really work with it and should go for a mostlyy utility oriented build to be effective. I mean I love Sona, but why are we not allowed to have a Support who build full AP and a Sightstone and still be effective? Okay we have Annie, but that is a different story.
: I'm a Diamond Karma Mid main and I can't believe Riot is trying to make her a support only champ. RIP Solo Lane Karma. She's fine exactly how she is right now and is actually not a bad support. The W changes are meh (I haven't been able to test them yet), but I really do want the Mantra E damage back. Was fun to use off of someone to deal damage at a large range or in a large area around your initiator. I just hate these changes.
I can´t remember how many times I used it to kill a low HP carry hiding behind their backline. And it will hurt her waveclear so badly.
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