: Nexus Blitz PBE - Patch Notes and Feedback
Tons of AP, extra AS, extra CDR and regen. That buff on Fizz is gonna be so fun {{sticker:sg-shisa}} Edit: OMG MY DFG IS EVEN COMING BACK AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
: Had a few more champ selects where I didn't need to trade or anything and those went quite a bit better. When I already know ahead of time what champ I want to play and what runes I'm going to have to use it seems to work fine. Since I'm mostly just trying to test Fizz and he has pretty straightforward rune setup it's hard to really test situations where idk what I wanna use. I tried making my rune page during the loadout phase and there seems to be enough time if you're familiar with all the runes and know what you want already.
Tried to look up a build guide during the champ select and did not have enough time to do that and edit my rune page to match the build in time. Also TY LORD FINALLY THE SECONDARY RUNES CHANGE THE WAY I EXPECT THEM TO
: Hey, I don't have like, the 20 games sample size yet, but I at least had a few champ selects and had run into some obvious pain points already. This definitely seems to go a bit heavy towards the stressful side of things. Some stuff I thought of: 1. When you press accept on the queue, I can never tell how much time is left for everyone else to accept because the circle around the button gets filled blue once you click accept (I described this horribly so hopefully you know what I mean). I think keeping the visual of the fill going away as the timer gets closer might look a bit nicer, or maybe greying it out if it's not noticeable enough that you clicked accept. 2. The animations where it shows the map and then shows every player and their roles 1 by 1 seems like it goes pretty slowly. Would this be a good place to cut out time? This also applies to when it shows the bans at the end of that phase. For timings, new champ select seems to be (these are just how many seconds it shows at the top): Hover phase: 12 seconds Ban: 19s Pick: I can't tell exactly how this works. In the example I'm going through, FP had 24s to pick, they picked with 19s left, and the next two to go had 19s to pick theirs. They had 0s left when they picked, then 3rd group had 16s. Everyone from this point on had 16s. I'm guessing it's just 24 -> 19 -> 16s for the rest. Loadout phase: 24s I was in the 16s phase for this one and it did not feel like enough time. Me and my teammate picking were both autofilled. He had AD in his name and I was autofilled to bot lane, so I asked if he wanted to go bot and I'll support and hovered Pyke. There wasn't nearly enough time for him to respond and we locked in Pyke and Lee Sin, it was a huge mess. We ended up working it out with out 5th pick but people ended up on roles they weren't intending to play because there just wasn't enough time. Looking on Live it looks like the current timers are Hover: 15s Ban: 29s Pick: 29/30s for everyone? Loadout: 29s The main thing that's feeling really difficult is the pick phase, and looking at the timings this makes sense because it got the most heavily reduced. In my example it was really bad especially because of trying to coordinate the autofills. Other people in the lobby seemed to be fine, but we in particular had a hard time when it came to wanting to offer a lane swap. It also seems weird that different people get more time to pick than others, especially first pick who doesn't have to worry about team comps or counter picking at that point. I think it might help if some of the changes to variance included a built-in way for autofilled people to try and swap with people instead of having to rely on the chat. PBE just went down again so I can't get any more tries in sadly. Also the 10+ minute queues make it hard...
Had a few more champ selects where I didn't need to trade or anything and those went quite a bit better. When I already know ahead of time what champ I want to play and what runes I'm going to have to use it seems to work fine. Since I'm mostly just trying to test Fizz and he has pretty straightforward rune setup it's hard to really test situations where idk what I wanna use. I tried making my rune page during the loadout phase and there seems to be enough time if you're familiar with all the runes and know what you want already.
: Draft Pick Champ Select Timing Improvements on PBE
Hey, I don't have like, the 20 games sample size yet, but I at least had a few champ selects and had run into some obvious pain points already. This definitely seems to go a bit heavy towards the stressful side of things. Some stuff I thought of: 1. When you press accept on the queue, I can never tell how much time is left for everyone else to accept because the circle around the button gets filled blue once you click accept (I described this horribly so hopefully you know what I mean). I think keeping the visual of the fill going away as the timer gets closer might look a bit nicer, or maybe greying it out if it's not noticeable enough that you clicked accept. 2. The animations where it shows the map and then shows every player and their roles 1 by 1 seems like it goes pretty slowly. Would this be a good place to cut out time? This also applies to when it shows the bans at the end of that phase. For timings, new champ select seems to be (these are just how many seconds it shows at the top): Hover phase: 12 seconds Ban: 19s Pick: I can't tell exactly how this works. In the example I'm going through, FP had 24s to pick, they picked with 19s left, and the next two to go had 19s to pick theirs. They had 0s left when they picked, then 3rd group had 16s. Everyone from this point on had 16s. I'm guessing it's just 24 -> 19 -> 16s for the rest. Loadout phase: 24s I was in the 16s phase for this one and it did not feel like enough time. Me and my teammate picking were both autofilled. He had AD in his name and I was autofilled to bot lane, so I asked if he wanted to go bot and I'll support and hovered Pyke. There wasn't nearly enough time for him to respond and we locked in Pyke and Lee Sin, it was a huge mess. We ended up working it out with out 5th pick but people ended up on roles they weren't intending to play because there just wasn't enough time. Looking on Live it looks like the current timers are Hover: 15s Ban: 29s Pick: 29/30s for everyone? Loadout: 29s The main thing that's feeling really difficult is the pick phase, and looking at the timings this makes sense because it got the most heavily reduced. In my example it was really bad especially because of trying to coordinate the autofills. Other people in the lobby seemed to be fine, but we in particular had a hard time when it came to wanting to offer a lane swap. It also seems weird that different people get more time to pick than others, especially first pick who doesn't have to worry about team comps or counter picking at that point. I think it might help if some of the changes to variance included a built-in way for autofilled people to try and swap with people instead of having to rely on the chat. PBE just went down again so I can't get any more tries in sadly. Also the 10+ minute queues make it hard...
: Hey Fizz, 1) We should (and are working on) fixing client lag. We won't ship these to Live so long as client issues are common. That isn't going to stop me from testing though. 2) I agree that players need time to meet their basic needs while playing. Leaning on a bloated champ select is not an efficient means of doing so. For starters, only some players can do so (those at the top of the pick order) and ~40% of players cannot (blind pick). I'll be running to the bathroom during my PBE games this week. It's possible that we will need to modify the current timings some to account for this. 3) Correct, there isn't one single scale. That is why the chart uses bands -- they represent the responses of individuals within the player population. I'm most excited about follow on work designed to minimize the variance in time needed between champ select veterans and those with less experience.
Thanks for the answers! I love these posts as someone that's working on becoming a user researcher :D I'm also already on PBE this patch a bit because of the Fizz W changes, so I'll make sure to add feedback here as well. I'll also try to do all my AFKing during the champ select (usually on PBE I get long queues that I can do stuff in) and hopefully see how that goes with how often people dodge there.
: Draft Pick Champ Select Timing Improvements on PBE
Some of these questions are going to sound potentially stupid so please bear with me on them: 1. I have a decent PC and it's pretty common for the client to lag/bug out/etc. during champ select. The long timers right now often help as a sort of buffer for when those things happen and have prevented me from getting a dodge because of client lag before. I would worry a bit about shorter timers on Live because of this. Some features (eg. trading champs) are especially guilty of this happening. 2. This is the one that's going to sound really stupid, but I feel like someone needs to say it. A decent chunk of people use champ select/loading screen time to go to the bathroom or otherwise AFK to get a drink or something. The time between starting queue and minions spawning is pretty high so it's going to happen. Will any of the UX improvements to champ select take this into account? 3. You mentioned in one of your replies about how people with different experience need differing amounts of time to pick their champs. Wouldn't a higher variation in champ select time better accommodate that? If not, wouldn't it at least mean that there isn't one single scale for Stressed <-> Bored like the graph seems to imply?
: Feedback & Discussion - Changes to emotes coming to PBE in patch 8.12
I really like the extra auto-fire options! For the emote bubbles: 1. How did you determine that using emotes mainly to communicate with your lane opponent is a problem? 2. Why did you place them on the left hand side of the screen? Does it ever end up causing distractions/issues due to moving players' eyes away from the right hand side of the screen where minimap/champ icons/killfeed info is? 3. Do all emotes show up both in the bubble and above the champ? If so, wouldn't most uses of emotes also broadcast them to people other than their intended target? For example, if you give your teammate a thumbs up, wouldn't it just look like a random thumbs up for no reason to the lane opponent? And if you send an emote to your lane opponent couldn't it also look random to a teammate? Will players be able to discriminate whether or not an emote is directed at them or someone else accurately?
: The "Place ward" one is a downgrade. Hard to read with that many different colors, it's fuzzy.
What makes it look fuzzy to you? Is it because there's a black outline around the outside but not around any of the parts inside of the icon?
: Cursor Update on PBE
Some thoughts looking at the post/pictures: It seems fairly difficult to discriminate between what type of target the cursor is hovering over. There's several reasons I see as to why this would be happening: 1. The only change to the cursor is color. Having more discriminating features would help make it easier to tell if you're close enough for the cursor to be hovering over an enemy or not. Changing multiple stimuli at once (like changing both color and shape) makes it easier for the brain to notice that it's changed without having to dedicate much attention to it. Recognition can also be further helped by using shapes that we've already been trained to understand, such as a sword for an enemy or shield for an ally. 2. The larger part of the cursor does not change. This part is much bigger and also where you want to be looking to know where the exact point your cursor is pointing at is. This means your attention is naturally going to be drawn towards it and towards the top-left of the cursor rather than the bottom right, where the change in color is occurring. 3. How will the cursor perform in more realistic scenarios than moving between still targets? In any larger fights, it's going to be more difficult to discriminate between what your cursor is hovering over. Since fights are going to have a lot of visual noise everywhere, it's going to be really difficult to notice when the dot at the bottom right of the cursor is changing color. I really like the new cursor when aiming skills/placing wards. A couple questions about that: 1. Would it be beneficial to add something like a little bush behind the crosshairs when the ward you're placing is inside a bush? On live the only way to tell is the color change. 2. What about something like changing the cursor when an ability is currently targeting an enemy, or an ally depending on the skill? Even if the ability is a skillshot would this be appropriate? Also, while you're changing the cursor, have you thought about changing the range/ability indicators at all (The light blue circle around your character or the big blue arrows when hovering over a skillshot)? Sometimes especially with bigger sizes they can look pretty pixelated and outdated. Overall I really like that you're finally updating these btw! I just like to be thorough about everything :P Edit: Also forgot to add, what kind of testing have you done for the new cursor? Have you mostly been focusing on subjective feedback like if people like it or what they want changed? Have you done any testing for things like what people's clicking accuracy is between each cursor, or if the time to hover over and click a target is different between cursors? If the legacy cursor ends up performing better in any of those, could it be a slight competitive advantage to use that one over the new one?
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.8
If the LeBlanc revert ends up working out well on live, will you consider doing any more assassin reverts? I've disliked how Fizz feels with his delays even more than LeBlanc with hers.
: [Assassins] - Mini Updates Discussion
Hey, I got a few games of me playing Fizz with some commentary if you'd like. I made these since I saw a request for them on the Fizz mains subreddit. I do a good deal of user testing for school right now where being able to look at recordings from users is super helpful so I thought maybe anyone at Riot might get something out of these. I did two games of AP and one of AD but I don't think AD is really viable with this rework. https://www.twitch.tv/fishermanfizz/v/96853272 https://www.twitch.tv/fishermanfizz/v/96761899 https://www.twitch.tv/fishermanfizz/v/96852616 I think the most recent changes to him were definitely another step in the right direction but overall I still pretty strongly prefer Fizz pre-rework. Some more updated impressions: * New W is slightly better for csing mostly because of the auto reset. I feel like it's really clunky and annoying having to press it every autoattack compared to Live where you just have to turn it on once. * I feel like my options to fight people are more limited. In teamfights I have less room to open with Q or E because that puts you in melee range where you can't get a good size ult anymore. I feel like you almost have to open with ult for maximum effectiveness and I feel like having less options in this way will make his gameplay get stale after a while. I feel like the lower damage at melee range is more responsible for this than the size difference. I also don't like the idea of my teamfighting being all about me throwing a long range ult and that being the majority of my teamfight contribution. I don't feel like it's very Fizz-like to be one of the big AoE wombo combo ult type of champions. His normal abilities are very important to his playstyle. * His ult as a zoning tool is somewhat interesting. I've had times where I get frustrated trying to use ult this way only to realize I used it short range and it's too small to actually be effective. At the same time though the idea of long range ults having better zoning potential is pretty cool and I think it's worth the tradeoff. * I feel like his new W causes his burst patterns to be more strick and less "freeform" if that makes any sense. Having to wait 2 seconds for W to be useful feels like it severely limits your options for creativity as you generally have to go Ult -> E -> WQ after ult does damage since that indicates the 2 second mark for W is reached. This combined with less options for teamfighting makes me think his gameplay will be more repetitive and boring. * His W makes his early levels surprisingly scary against melee champs. * I really like the lower mana cost on E. * Once in a while I get my W reset by killing a champion. It's nice when it happens but it seems like this is mostly just something where if you have enough damage for the Ult -> E -> WQ combo to kill instantly then you just happen to get it back. If this is meant to be a major mechanic, it doesn't feel like it's implemented into his kit as well as Katarina or Kha'Zix for example. * The W passive applying from his Q to me feels somewhat tacked on. The passive itself doesn't really feel like it does that much damage so it's not really all that exciting feeling to apply it in AoE. I feel like this interaction should either apply to all on-hits (except for sheen items since they go on cooldown after one use) or none of them otherwise it seems out of place. * I'm pretty sure his Q bug where using it at short range doesn't proc Sheen is fixed. It got fixed a long time ago but the bug came back at some point. Yay for fixing it again! * You can spam laugh during his E and it makes the animation look really weird. This should probably be fixed otherwise you can spam laugh every time you E and it's really obnoxious and makes it hard to enemies to see where you're landing. I'm not sure if this works on all of his skins or not. This bug is still on Live. Also if you use E against a wall it skips the whole animation and you can instantly recast it for some reason. It's like if you use Vayne's tumble into a wall. Again this happens on Live too but I thought these bugs were still worth pointing out.
: [Assassins] - Mini Updates Discussion
Hey, since my last comment there's been a few updates to Fizz so I want to say a bit about them. Going by what Surrender @ 20 says, he got these changes today: Seastone Trident (W) ` Mana cost reduced to 30 from 30/40/50/60/70 Cooldown increased to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 from 10/9/8/7/6 Active's charged AP ratio increased to 100% from 90% Playful / Trickster (E) mana cost lowered to 75/85/95/105/115 from 90/100/110/120/130 Chum the Waters (R) damage changes: NEW: 140/290/440 to 340/490/640 OLD: 120/270/420 to 360/510/660 I do feel like all of these are better changes. I will have to try these more but it looks like these should make it slightly easier to get away with E max due to the W AP Ratio and CD per level changes making ranks 2-5 of it less valuable than before. I'm also glad to see the ult base damage is being less spread out somewhat, although I think it still needs to be adjusted quite a bit more. I also still very strongly stand by saying that his W only being one autoattack is going to be a dealbreaker no matter how many changes you make to it. I'm afraid the 8 second cooldown will only make this feeling worse, but I haven't really had time to really test that yet. I like these changes overall but unless new W gets reverted or replaced with something different I still can't imagine myself ever enjoying this rework.
: Hello, after playing some full PvP games, I have a lot more to say. I'm going to try and rewrite my full opinion so sorry if I end up repeating information I've already said earlier. I'm going to go over individual ability changes first: Q: The hitbox for the W application seems to be pretty small. I was thinking this could be some sort of waveclear aid but in practice it's a huge pain to try and hit more than 2 or 3 minions with it. If you hit more than 3 minions it doesn't really matter anyway since the DoT would wear off before you get around to autoattacking them. With an E max this could potentially be neat as a way to lower melee minion hp slightly so that when you E after it successfully kills all the minions. When using Q against champions I don't really feel like this new interaction is something I care about at all when making decisions about when and where to use this skill. The main reason for this is that the DoT damage is much lower than on Live and no longer has the execute damage. Ultimately I don't feel very strongly one way or the other about the change to his Q. It seems like it could occasionally be a bit useful but for the most part I don't feel like it is adding any sort of new or meaningful gameplay. I do think the direction it's going in is interesting and could be expanded upon to good effect. W: I am really trying my best to get used to or like this skill but I just can't. It's crazy how much such a seemingly small change to this skill makes him play so differently, but I don't see this as a good thing. To me he doesn't feel like Fizz anymore because of this new W. Currently, a big part of what I think makes Fizz, well, Fizz, is his on-hit damage that half of his abilities on Live currently center around. I always have ways I can be dealing damage on Live because his W has a much larger uptime where your autoattacks are empowered, and the passive also does much higher damage and can make it possible to finish off people if your burst was just barely too low to kill someone. On PBE, it feels like I can't really do DPS anymore and if my burst isn't enough to kill someone outright it feels like I'm totally screwed. This also makes him feel more binary to play as you go onto someone and use your burst and then either you're fed enough that you kill your target, or you aren't and you have way lower chances of actually finishing them off. I also don't feel like this ability needs to be so high risk. He is already one of the highest risk champions in the game by design. He's melee, squishy, has no form of sustain at all and absolutely no ranged abilities to help him in lane save for his ultimate. While I don't have internal data anywhere near the level of Riot, you can see on [champion.gg](http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.minionsKilled&order=ascend) ([or on this page](http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Middle) \) that he is the lowest CSing laning champion in the game. Making this ability into a nearly all-or-nothing damage ability (you either do huge damage, or you do practically the same damage as a single autoattack with his old W active with no room in between) seems really unnecessary and feels so punishing on a champion that already has so much risk involved. The reward doesn't even feel worth it. Sure it looks cool since it's more bursty, but I could easily hit two autoattacks and Q in the time it takes for the bonus damage to be ready with his old W and would have done more damage. I'm not sure what the thought process for making this ability this way is. My best guess is that you want to nerf the passive and make good use of his W active more important, but surely there are better ways to go about it than taking away his whole on-hit aspect to his kit and replacing it with something that's pretty much all-or-nothing damage. Also on the risk subject, this ability feels so punishing early game if it's ever misused, no matter how slightly. When last hitting under tower, you absolutely do NOT have 2 seconds to wait for the bonus damage; your cs will have died to tower by then. So you're mostly stuck with using the lower damage portion of his W, which is pretty comparable damage to his old W because the AP ratio is the same as his old W active. But on Live, you can activate this ability once and generally have enough room to get most of all of the wave with proper planning. Now, you miss a CS by even one HP and you don't get any more autoattacks to help you out and your W goes on a cripplingly bad 10 seconds cd. And on top of that, the passive damage is HEAVILY reduced from live version. Especially since the execute damage is gone, you can't rely on the passive to secure CS nearly as easily as before either. This makes his early laning feel awful, even worse than on Live servers where his early game is already his biggest weakness. There's also some other, generally less obvious issues that I think are still important. For example, since you have to wait the full 2 seconds to get the bonus damage, you would think to do more damage you have to wait to cast it until those 2 seconds, but this isn't always the case. For example, compare these two ability chains (I'm going off of cooldowns based at 40% cdr for this, since these are ideal conditions and don't reflect a real game usually): 1. Q->auto to fill time->W after LB proc and bonus damage are both ready->wait->E when LB proc is up->auto, etc... 2. QW->auto to fill time->E when LB proc is ready->auto->W when LB proc is ready, etc... In this situation you can see that the 2nd one causes you to do more damage in the same time frame. Q and W cooldowns are both at 3.6 seconds meaning you can alternate between using each ability every two seconds to constantly proc lich bane off cooldown. Factoring in E makes it a bit more complicated but the general idea here is you can see that whether or not to use W right away is extremely unintuitive as to whether or not it's actually good for your damage overall. In most cases it would be higher damage to not use it right away, but there are still instances where this isn't true and it's unclear to the player when. I doubt anyone but a very small fraction of players will even consider this at any point in time while playing him. Overall though, the most important thing to take away from all this is that, this ability does not feel right at all being reworked to only being one single autoattack. It feels clunky and is way to overly punishing when misused at all. On any other champion that has some sort of tankiness, sustain, range, and so on to help them this could possibly be acceptable, but Fizz has none of these things. You already don't see this champion very often in pro play, largely due to how easy it is to punish his early game and how unreliable he can be. The last thing he needs to be healthier for the game is to be even less consistent. E: There's a small change here and I do like the direction it's heading in. I do like the AoE indicator since it can be hard to tell both for you and your opponent how big the AoE actually is. However, I think this should be tweaked slightly. Right now it shows a circle around your location when you jump, then it disappears when you start your landing and another AoE shows up after you've landed. However, when single casting E you can move around and even use Flash while landing, so then the AoE people see at first usually is not going to be accurate to where the actual AoE will be. I believe this AoE circle should follow Fizz's movement as he lands so it's more clear to all players involved where this AoE will hit. I do like this change in general though! R: I like the direction it's going with the size difference depending on how far you throw it. However, I think the difference in damage between the low and higher range ults should not be so hugely different. I would prefer it to just have the same damage no matter what, as the bigger size already gives you an advantage to casting it from long range. The massive damage difference just seems to be overkill in my opinion and again serves to make him less reliable, especially in lane. Early-mid game when you're fighting people alone or in small skirmishes, you generally aren't going to be throwing and landing the long range ults you would need for the damage to be comparable to Live. Instead, you usually rely on either using ult near melee range, or using his Q -> ult combo to catch people off guard and get up close to them while hiding the animation for him throwing his ult. With these scenarios resulting in your ult being far less effective, his laning is going to be even weaker than before. He will be much less consistent and more reliant on having his jungler (or roaming from other lanes in general) in order to CC his enemy for him so he can land a higher range ult. It wasn't mentioned as a change when I first saw it on the Surrender @ 20 site, but there's one change that I noticed with the ult that is actually well-thought out given the rest of his ability changes. His ult taking 2 seconds to come out instead of the initial 1.5 is an important change that I'm glad was not overlooked, despite how much I dislike the other changes that caused this to even matter. I appreciate this change a lot as it tells me whoever did these changes was at least paying attention to details. ------ Continuing the rest of my reply after this..
One more very important thing before I give my conlcusion to everything: I really, REALLY dislike how hard this update appears to be pushing Fizz to put points into his W over his other abilities. Currently on live, most players pretty much always max E first. This is really important to his playstyle. It gives him some way to clear waves, although it's a higher risk way than most mid laners' wave clear abilities. It also makes him more mobile. It drastically lowers the cooldown which is important to having him actually be mobile, which is a huge part of his playstyle. It also ties a good portion of his damage into his E, which is important because it gives Fizz a lot of important decision making over how to best use it and also gives some counter play to his burst as opponents can either dodge it, or force him to E more defensively and take away a huge part of his damage in the process. My experience trying to max E first on PBE has been horrible due to a combination of all his changes. The W is so much weaker at level one because the passive is so heavily nerfed, and the active CD is so long at rank 1. 10 seconds is absolutely ridiculous, especially when you consider how little damage it even does if you aren't getting the bonus damage. This is so much worse when you aren't maxing this skill and lowering the CD right away and just ends up making him not feel good to play. Not being able to max E first doesn't feel like Fizz anymore. Because this is PBE I can't comment on viability, so it's possible that I'm wrong and E is actually still strongest to max first. But that's not important. What's important is that it feels frustrating compared to how smooth the current Fizz on Live feels. Plus his dueling ability with E max is really weak feeling. It feels like you either have enough burst and you win, or you don't and you can't do anything and that's such a downgrade from what his gameplay feels like now. -------- So now my tl;dr in case this wall of text is too long: I don't really mind his Q/E/R changes that much, and actually do like quite a few aspects of them. But totally taking out his on-hit DPS from W and replacing it with a single empowered autoattack feels wrong on so many levels that I don't think I can support this change in any form. If this were shipped to Live, I would never play it, and this is coming from someone that has owned multiple accounts with Fizz in the name and has played thousands of games as him. He was the first champion I ever bought the double skin bundle for on release (at the time all champs used to come out with two skins along with the base skin) and immediately fell in love with him. Even though I don't play this game often anymore it's really sad to me that a lot of what made me like him all this time is being taken away. I really hope you can find some way to give him his on-hit playstyle back that makes him fun. Some possible ideas to improve upon the current kit: Q: I like the idea of having his Q apply stuff in AoE, but since his W passive is heavily nerfed I feel like this interaction isn't as impactful as it could be. A possible suggestion here (and obviously this would require numbers tweaks elsewhere to not be overpowered) would be to have his Q apply all on-hit effects in AoE instead of only the W passive. The spellblade passive on Sheen/Lich Blade/etc. would be an exception since it goes on cooldown after being used once, so instead this would only apply to the unit that was originally targeted. W: This absolutely needs to change back to an effect where his autoattacks are empowered in some way for X seconds. I think the general idea of rewarding good use of W is a good idea, but the iteration of his W on PBE is not the only way of doing this. Pretty much any way of nerfing his W passive damage and buffing the active damage would accomplish this same goal. Here are some ideas for how you could go about doing this. None of these are meant to be final idea but I want to at least help and throw out some ideas that I think would still make him feel like Fizz: * Simply just reducing the passive damage and buffing the active damage value. Taking off the % damage away entirely is something I can easily live with, as I believe the main flaw when Riot attempted to do this in his last "rework" was that the % damage was tacked onto the active instead of completely removed. * Lowering the passive damage, keeping the active damage relatively low per hit like it is on live, but adding an additional effect to the active so that every time you hit the same target, you add up to 3 additional stacks of the passive onto them. For example, pretend the passive does 5 damage per tick. Hitting once with the active on adds another stack so the next tick will do 10 damage, the next hit with active will do 15, then the next caps it at 20 after which the stack closest to wearing off will be overwritten. You can use the new visual for his W you just added to convey this effect too, as I will attempt to show with this poorly drawn example done at 4am: http://i.imgur.com/XmrUmk9.png * Same as the last suggestion, but instead of ramping up the DoT damage ramping up the Active damage instead. * Active damage on-hit changes based on how long the W passive has been on someone. This is different than the current PBE version in two ways. One is that it's still a constant on-hit effect rather than bunching up all the damage into one single autoattack. The other is that the change in damage would be less drastic than the current PBE version. Something like 10 base damage and .3 ratio initially, 15 base .35 ratio after 1 second of passive, 20 base .4 ratio after 2 seconds of passive, just as a rough example. Small note: The W DoT duration could possibly go back to lasting 3 seconds again with any of these changes too. Also, the auto-attack reset isn't necessary either with any of these examples. He can already cancel the end of the AA animation by immediately using Q anyway. Going auto -> W reset -> Q cancel again adds a small bit of clunkiness that doesn't seem necessary to me. The cool thing with any of these changes too is that they would have some neat new gameplay options with the other Q change that I mentioned. For example, using Q through multiple people adding an extra passive stack to all of them, or building new items like Nashor's Tooth. E: No changes other than what I mentioned earlier with having the new AoE indicator follow Fizz as he lands. R: Already mentioned earlier, but possibly tightening the damage spread between his small and big ults to not be such a huge difference. This is especially important at higher level play.
: **EDIT: PLEASE READ THE REPLIES I MADE TO THIS, I PUT A MUCH MORE DETAILED AND THOUGHT OUT RESPONSE THERE** I really dislike these Fizz changes. The ult and Q changes I'm mostly neutral about, but his new W is extremely unsatisfying and feels much more awkward to use. When I'm trying to CS I almost never have 2 entire seconds to sit and wait for the passive to fully charge so I basically am never getting the full damage when trying to hit minions under my tower. Then, if I miss a single CS I have to wait a whole 10 seconds to get it back? That makes his early game and just his laning in general feel terrible. His new Q interaction doesn't feel very satisfying either since it's just a dot and looks visually weak. Honestly I hate his early game and think it feels even worse than on Live because of how bad the new W feels. On Live servers I have no problems using his current W/E/Q to last hit minions under my turret. This new W is not only more awkward to use, but extremely punishing if you miss even one minion. His early game is already his weakest point, this additional punishment does not feel good at all. Also, and possibly just as importantly, you are completely changing his current playstyle with these changes. The W application by other abilities, as well as this absolutely RIDICULOUS 10 second base cooldown at rank 1 heavily punishes you if you don't max W first. The way he's currently played relies very largely on maxing his E, which gives you very good waveclear. And, more importantly, gives him a cool playstyle. Especially in early-mid game, every use of E matters a lot, you can't ever waste them. The mana cost is too big to allow you to mess this ability up often. And, because you're maxing it, it's also a large portion of your burst. This means you have to be constantly making decisions on whether you want to use this cooldown for damage, survivability, or try and put yourself in a position where you can do both. If maxing this skill first isn't a viable option, it's going to trivialize a lot of this decision making and completely change how he feels to play early-mid game in a negative way. This is mostly only applicable to higher level or pro play, but I also don't like how these changes make him feel less consistent. Currently if you want to play against higher Elo players, to get kills in lane you can't just throw your ult out at long range and expect to ever actually hit anyone. At medium range or so, good players have generally learned by this point to dash/flash/etc. out of your ult before it reaches them, and at long range they don't even need to use cooldowns to just dodge it. Usually to get your ult off against good players, you rely on using his Q -> ult combo so that you get closer to them while "hiding" your ult animation since you're casting it during your Q. With these changes this will cause you to throw a tiny little fish at them that does way less damage than the current one does. And you're also using your Q to get in range for this so that's taken away from his burst as well. This is going to limit any sort of kill pressure you have in lane considerably and force you to rely on your jungler/some other laner coming to your lane and ccing them for you so you can actually land your ult at a decent range. The W changes will only further add to this inconsistency, because you are basically doing either very little damage if it's not charged fully, or ridiculous damage if it is, with no room at all in between. I also play Fizz a lot top lane. Usually still AP but have also done different sorts of AD/AS/tank builds since long before they were considered viable. I have no idea how these changes will affect him top lane AP, but I can pretty safely say that this will probably kill off any of his off builds now that his W dps is getting hit even more. The ult losing the damage amp hurts as well but is somewhat made up for by the new change to apply his W at least. I'm also unsure how this is going to affect his jungling. I'm not the best jungler but I have a pretty decent understanding of how he clears in jungle so I'll try that out soon as well and comment again if it's hurt too much by the lack of %damage on his W. I'm glad that you at least kept his damage reduction on his passive as this helps his jungle clear a lot more than most people realize. I have played a LOT of Fizz games on Live servers. I've played him since the day he came out for thousands of games. I don't play very often anymore, but when I was at my best around Season 4 or so I peaked at somewhere in mid Diamond on NA before switching to LAN server for the lower ping and getting Challenger there. I mostly play normal games though. I'm not saying this to try and say I'm awesome at this game because I'm certainly not now, but I DO know a lot about this champion and have had no issues adapting to any changes he's gotten since his release day, including the other mini-rework he got that made him into an AS bruiser for a while, but I can't see myself coming to like this new set of changes at all, which is sad for me because if I did it would have motivated me to play more often again. I'm going to try to play some full games with these new changes to make sure none of these opinions change and if they do I will respond to this with anything new. I would also be happy to talk to anyone to give more feedback if that's somehow possible.
Hello, after playing some full PvP games, I have a lot more to say. I'm going to try and rewrite my full opinion so sorry if I end up repeating information I've already said earlier. I'm going to go over individual ability changes first: Q: The hitbox for the W application seems to be pretty small. I was thinking this could be some sort of waveclear aid but in practice it's a huge pain to try and hit more than 2 or 3 minions with it. If you hit more than 3 minions it doesn't really matter anyway since the DoT would wear off before you get around to autoattacking them. With an E max this could potentially be neat as a way to lower melee minion hp slightly so that when you E after it successfully kills all the minions. When using Q against champions I don't really feel like this new interaction is something I care about at all when making decisions about when and where to use this skill. The main reason for this is that the DoT damage is much lower than on Live and no longer has the execute damage. Ultimately I don't feel very strongly one way or the other about the change to his Q. It seems like it could occasionally be a bit useful but for the most part I don't feel like it is adding any sort of new or meaningful gameplay. I do think the direction it's going in is interesting and could be expanded upon to good effect. W: I am really trying my best to get used to or like this skill but I just can't. It's crazy how much such a seemingly small change to this skill makes him play so differently, but I don't see this as a good thing. To me he doesn't feel like Fizz anymore because of this new W. Currently, a big part of what I think makes Fizz, well, Fizz, is his on-hit damage that half of his abilities on Live currently center around. I always have ways I can be dealing damage on Live because his W has a much larger uptime where your autoattacks are empowered, and the passive also does much higher damage and can make it possible to finish off people if your burst was just barely too low to kill someone. On PBE, it feels like I can't really do DPS anymore and if my burst isn't enough to kill someone outright it feels like I'm totally screwed. This also makes him feel more binary to play as you go onto someone and use your burst and then either you're fed enough that you kill your target, or you aren't and you have way lower chances of actually finishing them off. I also don't feel like this ability needs to be so high risk. He is already one of the highest risk champions in the game by design. He's melee, squishy, has no form of sustain at all and absolutely no ranged abilities to help him in lane save for his ultimate. While I don't have internal data anywhere near the level of Riot, you can see on [champion.gg](http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.minionsKilled&order=ascend) ([or on this page](http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Middle) \) that he is the lowest CSing laning champion in the game. Making this ability into a nearly all-or-nothing damage ability (you either do huge damage, or you do practically the same damage as a single autoattack with his old W active with no room in between) seems really unnecessary and feels so punishing on a champion that already has so much risk involved. The reward doesn't even feel worth it. Sure it looks cool since it's more bursty, but I could easily hit two autoattacks and Q in the time it takes for the bonus damage to be ready with his old W and would have done more damage. I'm not sure what the thought process for making this ability this way is. My best guess is that you want to nerf the passive and make good use of his W active more important, but surely there are better ways to go about it than taking away his whole on-hit aspect to his kit and replacing it with something that's pretty much all-or-nothing damage. Also on the risk subject, this ability feels so punishing early game if it's ever misused, no matter how slightly. When last hitting under tower, you absolutely do NOT have 2 seconds to wait for the bonus damage; your cs will have died to tower by then. So you're mostly stuck with using the lower damage portion of his W, which is pretty comparable damage to his old W because the AP ratio is the same as his old W active. But on Live, you can activate this ability once and generally have enough room to get most of all of the wave with proper planning. Now, you miss a CS by even one HP and you don't get any more autoattacks to help you out and your W goes on a cripplingly bad 10 seconds cd. And on top of that, the passive damage is HEAVILY reduced from live version. Especially since the execute damage is gone, you can't rely on the passive to secure CS nearly as easily as before either. This makes his early laning feel awful, even worse than on Live servers where his early game is already his biggest weakness. There's also some other, generally less obvious issues that I think are still important. For example, since you have to wait the full 2 seconds to get the bonus damage, you would think to do more damage you have to wait to cast it until those 2 seconds, but this isn't always the case. For example, compare these two ability chains (I'm going off of cooldowns based at 40% cdr for this, since these are ideal conditions and don't reflect a real game usually): 1. Q->auto to fill time->W after LB proc and bonus damage are both ready->wait->E when LB proc is up->auto, etc... 2. QW->auto to fill time->E when LB proc is ready->auto->W when LB proc is ready, etc... In this situation you can see that the 2nd one causes you to do more damage in the same time frame. Q and W cooldowns are both at 3.6 seconds meaning you can alternate between using each ability every two seconds to constantly proc lich bane off cooldown. Factoring in E makes it a bit more complicated but the general idea here is you can see that whether or not to use W right away is extremely unintuitive as to whether or not it's actually good for your damage overall. In most cases it would be higher damage to not use it right away, but there are still instances where this isn't true and it's unclear to the player when. I doubt anyone but a very small fraction of players will even consider this at any point in time while playing him. Overall though, the most important thing to take away from all this is that, this ability does not feel right at all being reworked to only being one single autoattack. It feels clunky and is way to overly punishing when misused at all. On any other champion that has some sort of tankiness, sustain, range, and so on to help them this could possibly be acceptable, but Fizz has none of these things. You already don't see this champion very often in pro play, largely due to how easy it is to punish his early game and how unreliable he can be. The last thing he needs to be healthier for the game is to be even less consistent. E: There's a small change here and I do like the direction it's heading in. I do like the AoE indicator since it can be hard to tell both for you and your opponent how big the AoE actually is. However, I think this should be tweaked slightly. Right now it shows a circle around your location when you jump, then it disappears when you start your landing and another AoE shows up after you've landed. However, when single casting E you can move around and even use Flash while landing, so then the AoE people see at first usually is not going to be accurate to where the actual AoE will be. I believe this AoE circle should follow Fizz's movement as he lands so it's more clear to all players involved where this AoE will hit. I do like this change in general though! R: I like the direction it's going with the size difference depending on how far you throw it. However, I think the difference in damage between the low and higher range ults should not be so hugely different. I would prefer it to just have the same damage no matter what, as the bigger size already gives you an advantage to casting it from long range. The massive damage difference just seems to be overkill in my opinion and again serves to make him less reliable, especially in lane. Early-mid game when you're fighting people alone or in small skirmishes, you generally aren't going to be throwing and landing the long range ults you would need for the damage to be comparable to Live. Instead, you usually rely on either using ult near melee range, or using his Q -> ult combo to catch people off guard and get up close to them while hiding the animation for him throwing his ult. With these scenarios resulting in your ult being far less effective, his laning is going to be even weaker than before. He will be much less consistent and more reliant on having his jungler (or roaming from other lanes in general) in order to CC his enemy for him so he can land a higher range ult. It wasn't mentioned as a change when I first saw it on the Surrender @ 20 site, but there's one change that I noticed with the ult that is actually well-thought out given the rest of his ability changes. His ult taking 2 seconds to come out instead of the initial 1.5 is an important change that I'm glad was not overlooked, despite how much I dislike the other changes that caused this to even matter. I appreciate this change a lot as it tells me whoever did these changes was at least paying attention to details. ------ Continuing the rest of my reply after this..
: [Assassins] - Mini Updates Discussion
**EDIT: PLEASE READ THE REPLIES I MADE TO THIS, I PUT A MUCH MORE DETAILED AND THOUGHT OUT RESPONSE THERE** I really dislike these Fizz changes. The ult and Q changes I'm mostly neutral about, but his new W is extremely unsatisfying and feels much more awkward to use. When I'm trying to CS I almost never have 2 entire seconds to sit and wait for the passive to fully charge so I basically am never getting the full damage when trying to hit minions under my tower. Then, if I miss a single CS I have to wait a whole 10 seconds to get it back? That makes his early game and just his laning in general feel terrible. His new Q interaction doesn't feel very satisfying either since it's just a dot and looks visually weak. Honestly I hate his early game and think it feels even worse than on Live because of how bad the new W feels. On Live servers I have no problems using his current W/E/Q to last hit minions under my turret. This new W is not only more awkward to use, but extremely punishing if you miss even one minion. His early game is already his weakest point, this additional punishment does not feel good at all. Also, and possibly just as importantly, you are completely changing his current playstyle with these changes. The W application by other abilities, as well as this absolutely RIDICULOUS 10 second base cooldown at rank 1 heavily punishes you if you don't max W first. The way he's currently played relies very largely on maxing his E, which gives you very good waveclear. And, more importantly, gives him a cool playstyle. Especially in early-mid game, every use of E matters a lot, you can't ever waste them. The mana cost is too big to allow you to mess this ability up often. And, because you're maxing it, it's also a large portion of your burst. This means you have to be constantly making decisions on whether you want to use this cooldown for damage, survivability, or try and put yourself in a position where you can do both. If maxing this skill first isn't a viable option, it's going to trivialize a lot of this decision making and completely change how he feels to play early-mid game in a negative way. This is mostly only applicable to higher level or pro play, but I also don't like how these changes make him feel less consistent. Currently if you want to play against higher Elo players, to get kills in lane you can't just throw your ult out at long range and expect to ever actually hit anyone. At medium range or so, good players have generally learned by this point to dash/flash/etc. out of your ult before it reaches them, and at long range they don't even need to use cooldowns to just dodge it. Usually to get your ult off against good players, you rely on using his Q -> ult combo so that you get closer to them while "hiding" your ult animation since you're casting it during your Q. With these changes this will cause you to throw a tiny little fish at them that does way less damage than the current one does. And you're also using your Q to get in range for this so that's taken away from his burst as well. This is going to limit any sort of kill pressure you have in lane considerably and force you to rely on your jungler/some other laner coming to your lane and ccing them for you so you can actually land your ult at a decent range. The W changes will only further add to this inconsistency, because you are basically doing either very little damage if it's not charged fully, or ridiculous damage if it is, with no room at all in between. I also play Fizz a lot top lane. Usually still AP but have also done different sorts of AD/AS/tank builds since long before they were considered viable. I have no idea how these changes will affect him top lane AP, but I can pretty safely say that this will probably kill off any of his off builds now that his W dps is getting hit even more. The ult losing the damage amp hurts as well but is somewhat made up for by the new change to apply his W at least. I'm also unsure how this is going to affect his jungling. I'm not the best jungler but I have a pretty decent understanding of how he clears in jungle so I'll try that out soon as well and comment again if it's hurt too much by the lack of %damage on his W. I'm glad that you at least kept his damage reduction on his passive as this helps his jungle clear a lot more than most people realize. I have played a LOT of Fizz games on Live servers. I've played him since the day he came out for thousands of games. I don't play very often anymore, but when I was at my best around Season 4 or so I peaked at somewhere in mid Diamond on NA before switching to LAN server for the lower ping and getting Challenger there. I mostly play normal games though. I'm not saying this to try and say I'm awesome at this game because I'm certainly not now, but I DO know a lot about this champion and have had no issues adapting to any changes he's gotten since his release day, including the other mini-rework he got that made him into an AS bruiser for a while, but I can't see myself coming to like this new set of changes at all, which is sad for me because if I did it would have motivated me to play more often again. I'm going to try to play some full games with these new changes to make sure none of these opinions change and if they do I will respond to this with anything new. I would also be happy to talk to anyone to give more feedback if that's somehow possible.
: Position Preference In Testing
At this point, it would make much more sense to just give players a list of all 5 roles and let them check any combination of roles they want to play, as long as at least 2 roles are selected. This would make literally every single feature of role selection more intuitive. For example, rather than having fill, and now the more needlessly complicated fill + exclude one role option, you could just check any 4-5 roles. Or 3 roles, or however many you want. Rather than having "autofill," and then having exceptions for people that have filled recently, you can have the minimum number of roles adjust dynamically to how many people are playing and to how often the player is filling so that there's a smoother transition than having only 2 roles or all 5 roles as the only options.
: Kindred Official Feedback Thread
I've played a lot of games with the champion across a couple accounts, so I think I have a pretty good idea of how the champion seems to play out by now. I'm going to focus on the gameplay, because I feel like the character design part of this champion is absolutely phenomenal and I can't think of much to change. My only issue is that the sprinting animation doesn't seem that good and Lamb looks like she's limping forwards rather than running. Sadly, I don't feel like I am really liking her kit in its current state. I don't feel like it is currently doing justice to this amazing character design and I really hope that it can get fixed before release. First things first: the feel of Kindred's abilities is a huge disconnect from their artistic theme. When I saw Kindred at first I was expecting both of the characters to play equally important roles. Instead, Lamb seems to be the real champion and Wolf is more like Orianna's ball. This is because the ONLY ability where you feel like Wolf is really having an impact is the W. The passive, Q, E, and ult could all easily work if Wolf wasn't even there at all, which is just sad. Now, going onto each individual ability: Passive: Why is this uncapped against monsters? This isn't a really satisfying use of their power budget and really should get a hard cap so that more power can be put elsewhere. Other than that, it feels like it is very RNG based, especially since I am having a significantly easier time getting it off of scuttle crabs than when it spawns inside the enemy jungle. On top of that, it doesn't really feel at all like each champion is individually marking the targets, thematically it feels meh. Q: This ability feels fairly clunky and has some usability issues. It seems like because it was designed with jungle in mind, not enough thought was put into its use against champions. The fact that it doesn't have any priority towards champions makes it feel really frustrating when you Q right next to them and it instead targets a few minions next to you. The distance is also really small for what the cooldown is. I feel like most of the time, people can just walk away faster than I can chase them with Q + autos, which is really lame. W: The passive seems fine. It's actually surprisingly strong when I have tried laning with the champion. In solo lanes especially you can easily keep your hp topped off which could maybe be an issue if laning becomes a thing. Thematically, the active of this ability is the only thing in her kit that really hits the mark for having the two characters working together. My only complaint is that the cooldown reduction on Q is always stuck at 2 seconds. This makes buying CDR feel awful and makes her sticking power feel way lower than what it should be. I'm not sure how to explain this well, but the size of the circle aligns really poorly with the CD on your Q if you're trying to use it for mobility. When you reach the edge of the circle you always have half a second left that you have to stand still or else you lose the CDR on your next Q. Overall though I really like this ability. It's also great thematically and this is what all her skills should be like. E: I honestly just hate this ability. I don't really have a nice way of putting it. For a champion with two characters you get a ton of room to explore some unique new mechanics, but instead what we have here is yet another generic "Hit them 3 times for bonus damage" ability. The animations for casting and when you throw Wolf at them feel really long and again hurt her sticking power a lot. The damage also feels really underwhelming. For something that you have to use an active for AND stack 3 autos on, it doesn't do all that much more than your regular autoattacks. The slow makes it fairly powerful still, but thematically this spell is such a huge disappointment. It also doesn't make Wolf feel useful; you could easily change the animation for this skill and it'd be like he wasn't even there. If you want this champion to feel like the character design does, honestly I think this ability should just be scrapped entirely in favor of something that has more interaction with Wolf, and that's more creative than another 3 hit bonus damage spell. Ult: This ability is really cool. I love it and have no issues with it at all. At times the mana cost seems high early game, but I don't really know if that's something that really needs to be looked into at all. It might feel slightly better if it automatically self-casts if you don't have it specifically aimed on anyone. It might also be interesting thematically to involve Wolf in the casting of this ability. Since it's in an AoE that isn't always centered around you I feel like this would be a good spot to have wolf be doing more. Overall, these are the main things I feel like are positive about the champion: - The entire character design is fantastic. The art/sound teams all did amazing work all around and this is probably one of my favorite champions thematically. - The W and ult are really cool abilities mechanically. W in particular also feels like it fits in perfectly with the champion's theme. - I like having another marksman with a bit of extra utility. - The passive does a decent job getting the "hunter" feeling down And these are what I think are my main issues: - Passive damage uncapped vs monsters. This isn't a fun way to have power and forces the rest of her kit to be weaker because of it. - The champion feels very slow and clunky and has a lot of issues with sticking power. E's casting animation combined with the extremely low distance and lack of CDR on Q make chasing feel awkward. For a champion with tons of lines about how they always win at chasing, they sure don't feel like they chase all that well. - Absolutely 0 damage when behind. Combined with the low effective range you feel useless whenever the other team is ahead. - Why on earth does this game need another 3 hit mark ability? For a character with so much room for unique mechanics, this is just flat out disappointing. - Lots of itemization issues Speaking of itemization issues: - Her scaling feels way too low for building full damage to be rewarding. - The inability of CDR to work on her Q makes building that stat feel bad. - Armor pen seems like a good stat because of the lack of scaling, but items with armor pen mostly carry CDR - Devourer nerf absolutely needs a revert. This item has perfect synergy with the champion yet everyone is building the Warrior enchant anyway. - Base damage is too low for Trinity Force to be useful Because of this, I'm finding itemization to be extremely awkward. The best thing I have found is to build like an attack speed bruiser. Lastly, I have a hard time understanding what this champion's niche is supposed to be. With the kit that's here now, I feel like the direction it should be going is a high utility marksman (for the class at least) with an emphasis on zone control through W and ult. However, with the current state of the champion, her role seems a bit muddled and unclear. My first thing I would change if I were working on the champion would be to let her Q's reduced cooldown still scale with CDR and also make it prioritize enemy champions and lower-hp minions. This would both help with her chasing ability as well as make her feel more powerful when fighting in her W's zone of effect. Q might need to also apply on-hit effects (probably only to one target to not be totally broken), as using it more often = more time spent in the animation = less time to make use of attack speed which seems to be the best way to scale offensively on this champion. If I were to make more extreme changes, I would completely replace her E with something to further aid either her zone control ability or her sticking power, but making sure to involve Wolf in the core mechanic of the ability instead of just being tacked onto the animation. As a quick example, maybe you select a target, and Wolf starts to chase after them, doing damage to them, possibly slowing them, and forcibly dragging Lamb along for X amount of time. The counterplay would be that the other player can drag you in a bad position while you have no control of your movement. This is just a quick idea but shows something where Wolf is the driving force behind the mechanic. It'd feel fitting to have him going "Chase! Chase! Chase!" while Lamb is helplessly dragged along. tl;dr for everything: -The kit doesn't feel like it matches the character design. Character design is way better. -Awkward itemization and somewhat slow/clunky feeling abilities -Champion doesn't seem to fit a clear niche. -E ability is boring both mechanically and thematically. I would seriously consider a complete do-over for it. -If the champion was released live as is, once numbers were balanced properly I would still enjoy them, but mostly because of the character itself and not the abilities.
Rioter Comments
: This statement was made for the characters that relied heavily on Lich Bane and are getting compensation buffs. Because the ratios in their kit are higher, they won't rely as heavily on Lich Bane, but it should still provide value to them when they get it. I am aware that Lich Bane isn't better than the old version when behind assuming all other things are equal.
I'm just wondering, have you guys tried any compensation buffs other than just changing ratios to try to make their damage be about the same as it used to be? One of the reasons I'm wondering is because on the most recent PBE patch that went out, a lot of champions with abilities that buff their autoattacks for a set time just got the mana costs of those abilities removed. For example, Irelia got the mana cost on Hiten Style removed so it no longer costs anything to activate. Kog and Trist also got changes like that one. So, given that a lot of the buffs in this patch are aiming at eliminating those types of mana costs, wouldn't it make sense for the compensation buff to Fizz be to remove the cost from his W instead of just increasing the ratio a little? As it is, it works very similar to those abilities, especially Hiten Style, since both Fizz and Irelia are able to proc those abilities on their Q's as well as their autos.
: New Entrap passive makes Baron/Dragon much easier to solo
As Fizz I can solo dragon as soon as I hit level 6 with only a Spirit Stone and no other items. Whenever I'm clearing camps I never have to worry about my HP or Mana again and as the game goes on, farming camps becomes instant (even the Buff camps, and eventually even Dragon can literally get bursted instantly) and restores a huge amount of HP and mana. With a full build I can even solo Baron, as **Fizz**. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ8bmyzjm3A) is what that looks like.
: Let General Discussion Live 2013
If I wanted to use Reddit's layout, I would go on Reddit. The whole reason I'm here is because I **DON'T** want to use Reddit's layout <_< Also I can't even preview my posts, wtf is this.

Fîzz

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