: Hey Repertoir, Really excited to dive in and test these out. Quick question about Adaptive Helm: Does the passive work on repetion of the same ability or just one instance of the ability being cast? The tooltip says it reduces all subsequent magic damage "from that same spell or effect" for 5 seconds, but this can be interpreted one of a few ways. For example, would damage from all Ryze or Cass Es be mitigated for 5 seconds or just the first E cast? Thanks!
[All subsequent instances of damage from that spell/effect for the next 5 seconds. Also, taking damage from that spell/effect again will refresh the 5-second duration.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/63vq74/46_pbe_update/dfxfatn/)
: Uh, you with Riot/speculating/testing yourself?
[Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/63vq74/46_pbe_update/dfxfatn/) Sorry, I remembered seeing this and I was just looking for it.
: So you're...uh, flat out gutting Randuin's. Sure. It's a terrible fucking decision. Don't quite think Adaptive Helm will do what you want it to. Might be more effective if you tuned it to champions, but unless you let multiple instances of the effect run concurrently it'll just be kinda bad.
Multiple instances of the effect _can_ run concurrently.
: Hey Repertoir how is the functionality of Adaptive Helm exactly? For example with Cassiopeia if the Q/W poison proc goes off. Then E and repeat over the effect time at this point would it switch to E and then Q poison proc switched to priority then E again switching to E?
It has a separate counter for everything. Cassio hits Q and W, both her Q and W for the next 5 seconds will be weakened. She then hits an E one second later; now her Q and W are weakened for the next 4 seconds, and her E is weakened for the next 5. Taking damage from the same source again refreshes the timer, so if you kept standing in the W for example it'd stay at 5 seconds until it stopped hurting you (either by expiring or by you moving out of it). [Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/63vq74/46_pbe_update/dfxfatn/)
: Midseason Durability Feedback
Will Gargoyle Stoneplate's active affect true damage coming from the person with the item? For example, if Cho'Gath uses the active and then ults with it, will his ult do the full damage or reduced? If it deals reduced damage, will this also affect Ignite if the Stoneplate champion happens to use it? Also, does Gargoyle Stoneplate's bonus current health fall off at the end of the active? It doesn't say anything about it (and similar health bonuses don't fall off), but I'm concerned that it could be abused as a lane sustain tool. I realize this is experimental, but putting the spellshield of Banshee's on an AP item removes the ability for AD champions to buy it. Edge of Night does not fill the same niche. Is this intentional, and why (other than putting the Abyssal's original aura on a tank item, which makes sense)?
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:28:34.394+0000) > If you were in autoattack range before they Flash,....... ~~the Flash only took them to around 950 range (400 range Flash, 550 range autoattack). E can still catch them at this point, though some dashes are longer and you might not be able to catch up. There may be some range discrepancy due to autoattack and spell ranges being different, but also keep in mind that 1000 range for E does not include its radius.~~ Stopped right there. In the situation you initially described, you are chasing after having fully channeled your ult and your opponent have dashed/flashed to get out of it. You aren't in auto attack range unless they dashed towards you, which they won't unless they are dumb or trying to get a kill before they die anyway. > I know I just said I wouldn't do this, but in my defense I'm not going to try to use this as an argument; just sharing what I've experienced at this point. PBE MF actually has a much easier time dueling many marksmen now than before because of her increased burst. She hasn't lost much dueling power against marksmen, if any. The only thing I would say has been a detriment is the fact that many of those same marksmen are now a lot stronger in their own right if they play properly - denying those playstyles is necessary for some of them if you want to duel them (e.g. don't stand next to walls vs Graves). In my experience its the opposite. In the laning phase, MF is pretty much a t her best, while her power drops significantly after laning phase outside of using Ulti.. Situationally, if you are ahead, you can 2v1 a monster/minion/turret etc. and your opponent, which in a rather odd turn of evens can make MF stronger in the enemy minion wave than her own depending on the size of it. In a straight 1v1, you have to get a lucky on Love Tap and sub-sequential hits to really out dual people if they have even comparable items with you. So far, I've found BloodThirster rush to be the most effective on her on PBE. Graves doesn't even need to hit Q on the wall, he just needs to hit it on you, drop your Strut, and then proceed to Auto you. MF really can't duel him well, which is fine since that is more due to the Graves changes than the MF ones. > It's possible that Fervor of Battle is getting added to the number shown by Love Tap because they're both on-hit effects in a way (i.e. not part of the main autoattack). That's the only thing I can think of. I haven't looked out for this myself, so I'm just guessing right now. Pretty sure Fervor of battle make your physical damage increase when attacking champions, therefore not making it an on-hit effect. The on-hit aspect of it is the increase per hit, not the actual damage that it does. Whatsmore, is I have noticed this on enemy minions, not champions, of which FoB damage increase shouldn't be applying to anyway. This is even more noteworthy when you consider that LoveTap does reduced damage to minions. What this tells me is either LoveTap is calculating more than her total AD, or is ignoring some defensive stats or something. If this is the case, this should be addressed for balancing reasons.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T23:09:24.030+0000) > > Stopped right there. In the situation you initially described, you are chasing after having fully channeled your ult and your opponent have dashed/flashed to get out of it. You aren't in auto attack range unless they dashed towards you, which they won't unless they are dumb or trying to get a kill before they die anyway. My mistake; I lost track of the initial situation. The range buff does help when someone flashes out of autoattack range, but is comparable to Live for post-ult scenarios. I've still found the extra range to be useful in chasing people who would've otherwise gotten away with Live range, but I can't quantify that. > In my experience its the opposite. In the laning phase, MF is pretty much a t her best, while her power drops significantly after laning phase outside of using Ulti.. Situationally, if you are ahead, you can 2v1 a monster/minion/turret etc. and your opponent, which in a rather odd turn of evens can make MF stronger in the enemy minion wave than her own depending on the size of it. In a straight 1v1, you have to get a lucky on Love Tap and sub-sequential hits to really out dual people if they have even comparable items with you. Alright, cool. > So far, I've found BloodThirster rush to be the most effective on her on PBE. I've actually been rushing Bloodthirster on her even on Live, and it's been provided far more benefit for me than Infinity Edge ever has as a first item. > Graves doesn't even need to hit Q on the wall, he just needs to hit it on you, drop your Strut, and then proceed to Auto you. MF really can't duel him well, which is fine since that is more due to the Graves changes than the MF ones. If Graves doesn't land his Q on a wall, there's very little chance the delayed activation can actually hit you provided you're not in a narrow chokepoint. I didn't mention that earlier, but there you go. MF deals enough damage to match his burst as long as he hasn't gotten right beside you (which is possible if he dashes in, but you can kite him with higher range and E if he dashes early). I haven't played against any good Graves players on PBE, so I can't say how the matchup actually plays out against when player skill is even. > Pretty sure Fervor of battle make your physical damage increase when attacking champions, therefore not making it an on-hit effect. > The on-hit aspect of it is the increase per hit, not the actual damage that it does. > Whatsmore, is I have noticed this on enemy minions, not champions, of which FoB damage increase shouldn't be applying to anyway. > This is even more noteworthy when you consider that LoveTap does reduced damage to minions. Yep, you're right about Fervor of Battle. ~~That does sound like a crit, then, since it'd have to be a multiplier greater than 2x to overtake the damage penalty to minions. I'll test it myself when I can. It'd be pretty cool if it could crit!~~ I tested it in a full game with all the different item setups I could think of. It doesn't seem to crit (although it shows the little crit symbol beside the Love Tap damage number if the main attack crits, it doesn't actually do increased damage). The only thing that actually made it do more damage than my total AD was the dragon buff that increases damage dealt to minions and monsters. After that, my Love Tap procs on monsters did more damage than my total AD (since the Love Tap 50% reduction doesn't apply to monsters). That's the only time it did more than my total AD by a substantial amount, though. I couldn't recreate your scenario on minions.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:12:34.980+0000) > At level 6, you have 6 max stacks. However, I did make a mistake in my statement. 6 stacks x 8 waves = = 288% of total AD, whereas I believe you assumed 5 stacks x 8 waves = 240% of total AD. Both of our earlier statements were wrong. > > This is true for one target; however, ult is an AoE spell. Doing more than 4 autos on both targets in a 2v2 situation is not super likely. In a larger teamfight, it is extremely unlikely you start with max stacks on every target. I took what I thought was the more reasonable assumption to start with 0 stacks, though I'm aware that this favours my argument. Sorry if I was unclear. The problem with that reasoning is the are talking about level 6. At level Six, you are bot lane in a 2v2 situation, not a fullscale teamfight. That is why i used that scenario. > > Alright, so let's delve into this. At level 1, MF on Live has 50 AD whereas PBE MF has 46 AD. At level 18, Live MF has 101 AD and PBE MF has 63 AD. I'll redo those calculations with level 1 numbers (assuming you rank W first, which I don't usually do but for the sake of argument) and level 18 numbers. The first number in each group is for Live MF, while the second is for PBE MF with one Love Tap proc. I assumed that you get at least one proc because it's almost impossible not to unless you misuse PBE MF's W (using it after you've already hit your target). > > Level 1 > 50 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20%) x 6 seconds = 236 damage > 46 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60%) x 5 seconds + 46 AD x 0.656 = 272 damage > 15.3% damage advantage to PBE MF > > Level 18 > 101 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% AS from levels) x 6 seconds = 839 damage > 63 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% AS from levels) x 5 seconds + 63 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 51%) = 622 damage > 34.9% damage advantage to Live MF > > At first glance, you seem to be correct. Let's do some math with items/runes/masteries. I'll assume that you're running 8.5 AD and 17.5% attack speed from runes and masteries. At level 18, I'll look at two different builds: a standard crit build, and an AD heavy build. > > The standard crit build will consist of Berserker Greaves, Infinity Edge, Bloodthirster, Lord Dominik's Regards (just taking the AD since both builds make equally good use of the armor pen and % damage increase), and Runaan's Hurricane. All of these are assuming the PBE versions of the items. This gives 65% attack speed, 50% crit chance, 180 AD, and 15 on-hit damage. > > The AD heavy build will consist of Berserker Greaves, Infinity Edge, Bloodthirster, Lord Dominik's Regards, a BF Sword, and Caulfield's Hammer. I'm assuming the last two components will be build into an Essence Reaver. This gives 30% attack speed, 50% crit chance, and 245 AD. > > The two builds require 13500 and 13400 gold, respectively. Not unreasonable for when you're at level 18, especially if you consider the gold/10 increases in preseason. > > Level 1 > 59 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20% + 20%) x 6 seconds = 325 damage > 55 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 20%) x 5 seconds + 55 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20%) = 368 damage > > Level 18 (standard crit build) > (289.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% + 82.5%) x 6 seconds = 6026 damage > (251.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% + 77.5%) x 5 seconds + (251.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 51% + 77.5%) = 5885 damage > 2.4% damage advantage to Live MF > > > Level 18 (AD heavy build) > 354.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% + 82.5%) x 6 seconds = 7167 damage > 316.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% + 77.5%) x 5 seconds + 316.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 51% + 77.5%) = 7161 damage > 0.0% damage advantage for Live MF > > After looking at this more indepth, I'll admit I was incorrect before. If you take PBE MF's base AD nerf into account, then PBE MF's steroid improvement (referring to the AS steroid only) has only broken even with Live MF's DPS in the late game with items. Early game, PBE MF wins out. Late game with less gold, Live MF deals more damage. > > That being said, the conclusions I can draw are this. PBE Miss Fortune's steroids (not including Love Tap's damage and Impure Shots' damage) make her stronger in the early game and equal to Live MF in the late game assuming she is not significantly behind in gold. If behind in gold, Live MF does more DPS with autoattacks. > > This means we can now directly compare Love Tap and Impure Shots' stacking damage, since the other aspects break even with each other. If you want to make an argument for Live MF being better if behind, feel free to do that; right now I'm assuming MF has a reasonable amount of gold. > > Let's try to address this point. > > Level 1 Love Tap (50% AD last time I checked) does around 27 damage at level 1 with 8.5 AD from runes (54.5 AD at level 1 for PBE MF). > Impure Shots does around 3.51 damage per stack with 58.5 AD on Live MF. This means you need around 8 stacks total to break even with one Love Tap proc, assuming you start from 0 stacks. This is achieved in 4 autoattacks (or 3 autos and one Q). When you count from maximum stacks, every autoattack does 17.6 extra damage from 5 stacks of Impure Shots. If you switch targets, this entire process starts from 0 again. > > I think this is an overall win for Live MF, with a clear advantage to Live MF in extended trades (more than 4 autoattack equivalents on the same target) and a clear advantage to PBE MF for Q poke (one Love Tap proc vs one Impure Shots stack) and short trades (under 4 autoattack equivalents on the same target). You can argue qualitatively which one is more valuable, but I can't think of a way to objectively say one playstyle is better than the other. Therefore, I won't try to argue that point. Now let's look at level 18. > > Since we found that the heavy AD build does more DPS than the traditional crit build even on Live MF, I'm going to use the AD heavy build. You can argue Runaan's if you want, but honestly if you're gimping your damage by running Runaan's I don't know what else I can say. > > Level 18 Love Tap (100% AD) does 316.5 damage. I'm assuming it cannot crit, since I still think its ability to crit is a bug. Regardless, if it were able to crit then it would be 554 damage. I'll include crit Love Tap procs here in case I'm wrong about it being a bug, but I won't attempt to base my arguments on it. > Impure Shots does 21.27 damage per stack. This means you need 15 stacks to break even with non-crit Love Tap and around 26 stacks to break even with crit Love Tap. This takes 5 autoattack equivalents for non-crit Love Tap. > If you get maximum stacks of Impure shots, every two autoattacks would deal slightly more damage than one non-crit Love Tap proc (around 26 more damage). > > What can we say about this? If I am able to switch targets once every 5 autoattack equivalents, my Love Tap damage breaks even with Impure Shots if you count the stacks from 0. If you are able to get max stacks off on a target, then I must switch targets every two autoattacks on the main target to get the same damage from procs. > > Again, it's difficult to argue objectively how hard it is to actually accomplish this. I will say that I've consistently gotten many stacks on a single target on Live MF before, so it's not difficult to stack Impure Shots. However, I've also been able to at least occasionally switch targets to make use of Love Tap. If I constantly switch targets, my damage from Love Tap is much higher than my damage from Impure Shots, even at maximum stacks on multiple targets (which is much harder to achieve). > > Overall, yes, it is substantially easier to build Impure Shots stacks on a single target than it is to get multiple Love Tap procs off. However, keep in mind that at 8 stacks of Impure Shots your target is probably going to be dead very soon, if they aren't already. This means that the comparison between 0 starting stacks of Impure Shots and Love Tap is more common than the 8 stack vs Love Tap comparison. It is not difficult to get one Love Tap proc off every 5 autoattack equivalents. > > If you're literally 1v1ing a bruiser, yes, Live MF is better at doing that. If you're anywhere near the teamfight, chances are you can get a proc with a Q bounce or something. Before you say that it's better just to focus one target, the damage advantage of Love Tap over Impure Shots at low stack numbers allows you to switch targets profitably and not lose DPS on your main target (especialy since it extends your steroid) > > I'm still not convinced by your Runaan's Hurricane argument of building Impure Shots on multiple targets easily because a) you're doing less DPS just from the build you chose and b) again, if your targets are close enough to get hit by Runaan's bolts then they're close enough to target swap for Love Tap procs. If you still want to argue with Hurricane, show me some math. For the sake of argument, might I just say that my typical build path on Live with MF is InfinityEdge -> Youmu's -> LW -> BC? (sometimes getting BC early instead of Youmus). Sorry for the confusion. I don't know what difference it will make, but I want a more direct comparison between how I feel MF performs on live versus on the current PBE.
Let's do that one, then. Level 18, 225 AD, 20% crit chance, and I'll add in the Youmuu's active for 40% attack speed. I'll ignore armor pen as usual because both builds benefit from the %increase in damage equally. I've also converted the items to their PBE form. 334.5 AD x (250% x 20% + 80%) x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% + 40%) x 6 seconds = 4296 damage 296.5 AD x (250% x 20% + 80%) x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% + 40%) x 5 seconds + 296.5 AD x (250% x 20% + 80%) x 0.656 x (1 + 51% + 40%) = 4415 damage 2.8% damage advantage to PBE MF I think my conclusions for that part of the argument still stand. >The problem with that reasoning is the are talking about level 6. At level Six, you are bot lane in a 2v2 situation, not a fullscale teamfight. That is why i used that scenario. It's true that you're in a 2v2 scenario, but I still don't think it's that reasonable to assume that you have max stacks on both enemy champions when you're ulting. That being said, it's also fairly unreasonable to assume that you start with 0 stacks. If I wanted to calculate it again, I'd probably take the average scenario and assume that you have 6 stacks on one champion, 0 stacks on another, then take the average of the damage dealt to those two champions. I don't think such a calculation would actually add much to the discussion, though, since I've already stated that Live MF's ult is usually better than PBE MF's ult if you look at the damage dealt in the first two seconds. It'd make the damage more skewed in favour of Live MF, but the actual conclusion doesn't change. For that reason, I'm not going to redo that particular calculation unless you feel it's particularly important.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:09:38.004+0000) > > I'm going to address this first because I think it's important. I do not enjoy cop-out answers. The only reason I'm resorting to using these kinds of answers is because you have not given me any quantitative or objective analysis to back your claims. In short, you haven't shown me any math or proof and you're just saying a lot of things as if they were obviously true. That's not how an argument works. > > If you want me to address those points, you'll have to show me objective analysis. By not doing so, we get into a cycle of saying "I'm right!" and "No, I'm right!", which is a waste of my time and I assume a waste of yours. I'm not willing to do that with you, no matter how much I enjoy debating League. Please consider this. > > **Also, ad hominem attacks do not make you sound more convincing.** Even though you included a disclaimer that you might sound hostile over the internet, that does not give you free reign to be hostile over the internet. I'll ask you to stick to discussing objective points. If you've noticed, I have not attacked you in any way - I'll ask you to do the same for me. > > Now, moving on to the points you've made. Excuse me? May you point to where I made an ad hominem attack? I agree that ad hominem attacks have no business being used, but false accusations in an attempt to garner sympathy through getting defensive isn't either. I have not attacked you. I will ask that this remain about the topic at hand.
I went back to reread all of your comments and I screwed up pretty hard here. You're right, you haven't made any attacks on me; I was overly sensitive to your tone. Believe me when I say I'm not trying to garner sympathy; to be honest, I don't care one whit about what other people think of our discussion right now. I've crossed out that part in my comment above, but I'll leave it for context. Thanks for remaining civil when I made an uncalled-for accusation. I'll try to stay on-topic.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T07:27:49.833+0000) > > The AS steroid duration doesn't affect Strut at all. Strut is still always active as long as MF doesn't take damage. Activating W only reactivates the passive (there is no period of time where it cannot be broken), so it really hasn't changed much from Live. I never said it does. please read again. I am concerned with having attack speed to kite with for a shorter duration. > > An extra BF Sword is exaggerating slightly, but point taken. This scenario is entirely laning matchup-dependent and doesn't happen every game. > > This is true, though I think I proved that the longer W duration doesn't actually affect MF's damage. I have actually pointed out how it does indirectly later on. > > For both sides, yes. Since MF doesn't have the ability to just hold onto LoveTap and wait for exhaust to drop before using it, it is more cripling to her than all her opponents in the situation you described. > > > I'm referring to teamfight phase. At no point do I reference getting dove under tower. By this I mean engage tanks or assassins diving on you through your team. By that point, you are dead. not one but 2? If they are able to get on you in the first place, then it's over before then. Malphite ulti? gg. Maokai E? gg. XinXhao E? gg. MF is dead already and even then won't be killing them in the 2.5 seconds they are CC'd., giving them the opportunity to get you, > > I've actually had far more success bursting people who turn with PBE MF than Live MF, though both are pretty good at it. Do tell. > A 1000 range slow can be a catch tool (pre-teamfight). In addition, some champions may be able to actually get out of your ult before they die to it. Flash exists and so do dashes. If anyone survives, E can help your team catch them. If they have flashed or Dashed out, E isn't helping you catch them unless they did so towards you. They are gonna do it in the opposite direction of you. You aren't catching them with your E. > > Again, not in my experience. MF tends to burst squishies harder than almost anyone except assassins and burst mages. This leaves what as squishes now? Hope you don't mean marksman, because they all out duel you now. > On a side note, you might've noticed I've shut down a lot of arguments simply by saying we have to simply disagree. That isn't what shutting down an argument is, but yeah, I noticed.. >That's only because we've gone through one full round of giving our arguments for those points and neither of us is convinced. I don't think much more will change if we reiterate our arguments to each other, so I won't argue those anymore unless there's a new argument to give. Suite yourself. I just want to go back to a point I made before. I've again noticed that LoveTap was doing more damage than her basic attack, though I am having trouble screenshotting it. I am running physical marks and Quints to offset the AD at early levels and because of the total AD scaling on LoveTap making it more optimal than armor pen. I am also using Fervor of battle for similar reasons. Any change this is affecting it? Maybe an unintended interaction?
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T09:16:46.609+0000) > > I never said it does. please read again. I am concerned with having attack speed to kite with for a shorter duration. Let me try to understand, then. I think you're saying that it's easier to interrupt most of the steroid's duration because now it's more focused; is that correct? If so, I agree with you to some extent. It is theoretically easier to interrupt because it's more focused, but it also gives your opponents less time to react to the fact that you've used a steroid. Also, it's easier to make use of the full steroid if it's short than if it's long because there's a higher chance of you getting interrupted at some point with a longer steroid duration, which means you lose some of the effect. Overall, let's say I agree. > I have actually pointed out how it does indirectly later on. > Since MF doesn't have the ability to just hold onto LoveTap and wait for exhaust to drop before using it, it is more cripling to her than all her opponents in the situation you described. I agree here too. Since MF is now more burst-oriented than before, she is more vulnerable to Exhaust. I just completely agree with this and recognize it as a downside to PBE MF, so I won't try to argue it. > By that point, you are dead. not one but 2? If they are able to get on you in the first place, then it's over before then. Malphite ulti? gg. Maokai E? gg. XinXhao E? gg. MF is dead already and even then won't be killing them in the 2.5 seconds they are CC'd., giving them the opportunity to get you, Depends on who's diving you. Malphite and one other person will probably end in you dying. Diana and one other person will probably end in you dying. However, two lowish-damage tanks diving you? Some of the counterplayable assassins (Zed, Leblanc to some extent, Fizz to some extent, etc.) diving you? You might be able to Flash and avoid the important spells, which means you can start hitting them. I'm assuming your team is also doing something to peel for you and they're not just standing there. > Do tell. You're right, this kind of argument helps nobody. I'll stop making them and simply not argue based on personal experience because it's not objective enough to be argued. > If they have flashed or Dashed out, E isn't helping you catch them unless they did so towards you. They are gonna do it in the opposite direction of you. You aren't catching them with your E. If you were in autoattack range before they Flash, the Flash only took them to around 950 range (400 range Flash, 550 range autoattack). E can still catch them at this point, though some dashes are longer and you might not be able to catch up. There may be some range discrepancy due to autoattack and spell ranges being different, but also keep in mind that 1000 range for E does not include its radius. > This leaves what as squishes now? Hope you don't mean marksman, because they all out duel you now. I know I just said I wouldn't do this, but in my defense I'm not going to try to use this as an argument; just sharing what I've experienced at this point. PBE MF actually has a much easier time dueling many marksmen now than before because of her increased burst. She hasn't lost much dueling power against marksmen, if any. The only thing I would say has been a detriment is the fact that many of those same marksmen are now a lot stronger in their own right if they play properly - denying those playstyles is necessary for some of them if you want to duel them (e.g. don't stand next to walls vs Graves). > That isn't what shutting down an argument is, but yeah, I noticed.. True, poor choice of wording on my part. I've addressed the reason why I've been doing this in more depth in another of my replies to you. It's a short one. > I just want to go back to a point I made before. I've again noticed that LoveTap was doing more damage than her basic attack, though I am having trouble screenshotting it. > > I am running physical marks and Quints to offset the AD at early levels and because of the total AD scaling on LoveTap making it more optimal than armor pen. > I am also using Fervor of battle for similar reasons. > > Any change this is affecting it? Maybe an unintended interaction? It's possible that Fervor of Battle is getting added to the number shown by Love Tap because they're both on-hit effects in a way (i.e. not part of the main autoattack). That's the only thing I can think of. I haven't looked out for this myself, so I'm just guessing right now.
: > You really enjoy cop-out answers, don't you? I'm going to address this first because I think it's important. I do not enjoy cop-out answers. The only reason I'm resorting to using these kinds of answers is because you have not given me any quantitative or objective analysis to back your claims. In short, you haven't shown me any math or proof and you're just saying a lot of things as if they were obviously true. That's not how an argument works. If you want me to address those points, you'll have to show me objective analysis. By not doing so, we get into a cycle of saying "I'm right!" and "No, I'm right!", which is a waste of my time and I assume a waste of yours. I'm not willing to do that with you, no matter how much I enjoy debating League. Please consider this. ~~Also, ad hominem attacks do not make you sound more convincing. Even though you included a disclaimer that you might sound hostile over the internet, that does not give you free reign to be hostile over the internet. I'll ask you to stick to discussing objective points. If you've noticed, I have not attacked you in any way - I'll ask you to do the same for me.~~ Now, moving on to the points you've made.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T14:39:08.861+0000) I'll address some of your later complaints first. > Ah. Well in that case, you added 1 point too many at each level. You start at level 1, lol. Yup, you're right. I've adjusted my calculations in this post to match. I don't think it makes a huge difference for my other calculations, so I'll leave those be. > First, it isn't max stacks. Max stacks would be 5 stacks. At level 6, you have 6 max stacks. However, I did make a mistake in my statement. 6 stacks x 8 waves = = 288% of total AD, whereas I believe you assumed 5 stacks x 8 waves = 240% of total AD. Both of our earlier statements were wrong. > With Q, that's 3 Autos... Saying 3 auto attacks is unreasonable is rather crazy to me. You are doing more than 4 autos on an engage in lane at level 6, dude... Cmon now... This is true for one target; however, ult is an AoE spell. Doing more than 4 autos on both targets in a 2v2 situation is not super likely. In a larger teamfight, it is extremely unlikely you start with max stacks on every target. I took what I thought was the more reasonable assumption to start with 0 stacks, though I'm aware that this favours my argument. Sorry if I was unclear. > I disagree. it plays into the power redistribution that overall lead to her AD be lowered. > > No it doesn't because for it to, you'd have to be applying the same damage over those 5 seconds, which you aren't. > In an ideal scenario where you have the same ad in both cases, it would come to the same, but it isn't the case. Alright, so let's delve into this. At level 1, MF on Live has 50 AD whereas PBE MF has 46 AD. At level 18, Live MF has 101 AD and PBE MF has 63 AD. I'll redo those calculations with level 1 numbers (assuming you rank W first, which I don't usually do but for the sake of argument) and level 18 numbers. The first number in each group is for Live MF, while the second is for PBE MF with one Love Tap proc. I assumed that you get at least one proc because it's almost impossible not to unless you misuse PBE MF's W (using it after you've already hit your target). Level 1 50 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20%) x 6 seconds = 236 damage 46 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60%) x 5 seconds + 46 AD x 0.656 = 272 damage 15.3% damage advantage to PBE MF Level 18 101 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% AS from levels) x 6 seconds = 839 damage 63 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% AS from levels) x 5 seconds + 63 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 51%) = 622 damage 34.9% damage advantage to Live MF At first glance, you seem to be correct. Let's do some math with items/runes/masteries. I'll assume that you're running 8.5 AD and 17.5% attack speed from runes and masteries. At level 18, I'll look at two different builds: a standard crit build, and an AD heavy build. The standard crit build will consist of Berserker Greaves, Infinity Edge, Bloodthirster, Lord Dominik's Regards (just taking the AD since both builds make equally good use of the armor pen and % damage increase), and Runaan's Hurricane. All of these are assuming the PBE versions of the items. This gives 65% attack speed, 50% crit chance, 180 AD, and 15 on-hit damage. The AD heavy build will consist of Berserker Greaves, Infinity Edge, Bloodthirster, Lord Dominik's Regards, a BF Sword, and Caulfield's Hammer. I'm assuming the last two components will be build into an Essence Reaver. This gives 30% attack speed, 50% crit chance, and 245 AD. The two builds require 13500 and 13400 gold, respectively. Not unreasonable for when you're at level 18, especially if you consider the gold/10 increases in preseason. Level 1 59 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20% + 20%) x 6 seconds = 325 damage 55 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 20%) x 5 seconds + 55 AD x 0.656 x (1 + 20%) = 368 damage Level 18 (standard crit build) (289.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% + 82.5%) x 6 seconds = 6026 damage (251.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% + 77.5%) x 5 seconds + (251.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) + 15 on-hit) x 0.656 x (1 + 51% + 77.5%) = 5885 damage 2.4% damage advantage to Live MF Level 18 (AD heavy build) 354.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 60% + 51% + 82.5%) x 6 seconds = 7167 damage 316.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 120% + 51% + 77.5%) x 5 seconds + 316.5 AD x (50% x 250% + 50%) x 0.656 x (1 + 51% + 77.5%) = 7161 damage 0.0% damage advantage for Live MF After looking at this more indepth, I'll admit I was incorrect before. If you take PBE MF's base AD nerf into account, then PBE MF's steroid improvement (referring to the AS steroid only) has only broken even with Live MF's DPS in the late game with items. Early game, PBE MF wins out. Late game with less gold, Live MF deals more damage. That being said, the conclusions I can draw are this. PBE Miss Fortune's steroids (not including Love Tap's damage and Impure Shots' damage) make her stronger in the early game and equal to Live MF in the late game assuming she is not significantly behind in gold. If behind in gold, Live MF does more DPS with autoattacks. This means we can now directly compare Love Tap and Impure Shots' stacking damage, since the other aspects break even with each other. If you want to make an argument for Live MF being better if behind, feel free to do that; right now I'm assuming MF has a reasonable amount of gold. > I'm not even gonna let that one slide. This is simply untrue. LoveTaps Curve if efficients is much steeper than Impureshots. Saying it's middle of the road scenario breaks even is just wind at that point. Let's try to address this point. Level 1 Love Tap (50% AD last time I checked) does around 27 damage at level 1 with 8.5 AD from runes (54.5 AD at level 1 for PBE MF). Impure Shots does around 3.51 damage per stack with 58.5 AD on Live MF. This means you need around 8 stacks total to break even with one Love Tap proc, assuming you start from 0 stacks. This is achieved in 4 autoattacks (or 3 autos and one Q). When you count from maximum stacks, every autoattack does 17.6 extra damage from 5 stacks of Impure Shots. If you switch targets, this entire process starts from 0 again. I think this is an overall win for Live MF, with a clear advantage to Live MF in extended trades (more than 4 autoattack equivalents on the same target) and a clear advantage to PBE MF for Q poke (one Love Tap proc vs one Impure Shots stack) and short trades (under 4 autoattack equivalents on the same target). You can argue qualitatively which one is more valuable, but I can't think of a way to objectively say one playstyle is better than the other. Therefore, I won't try to argue that point. Now let's look at level 18. Since we found that the heavy AD build does more DPS than the traditional crit build even on Live MF, I'm going to use the AD heavy build. You can argue Runaan's if you want, but honestly if you're gimping your damage by running Runaan's I don't know what else I can say. Level 18 Love Tap (100% AD) does 316.5 damage. I'm assuming it cannot crit, since I still think its ability to crit is a bug. Regardless, if it were able to crit then it would be 554 damage. I'll include crit Love Tap procs here in case I'm wrong about it being a bug, but I won't attempt to base my arguments on it. Impure Shots does 21.27 damage per stack. This means you need 15 stacks to break even with non-crit Love Tap and around 26 stacks to break even with crit Love Tap. This takes 5 autoattack equivalents for non-crit Love Tap. If you get maximum stacks of Impure shots, every two autoattacks would deal slightly more damage than one non-crit Love Tap proc (around 26 more damage). What can we say about this? If I am able to switch targets once every 5 autoattack equivalents, my Love Tap damage breaks even with Impure Shots if you count the stacks from 0. If you are able to get max stacks off on a target, then I must switch targets every two autoattacks on the main target to get the same damage from procs. Again, it's difficult to argue objectively how hard it is to actually accomplish this. I will say that I've consistently gotten many stacks on a single target on Live MF before, so it's not difficult to stack Impure Shots. However, I've also been able to at least occasionally switch targets to make use of Love Tap. If I constantly switch targets, my damage from Love Tap is much higher than my damage from Impure Shots, even at maximum stacks on multiple targets (which is much harder to achieve). Overall, yes, it is substantially easier to build Impure Shots stacks on a single target than it is to get multiple Love Tap procs off. However, keep in mind that at 8 stacks of Impure Shots your target is probably going to be dead very soon, if they aren't already. This means that the comparison between 0 starting stacks of Impure Shots and Love Tap is more common than the 8 stack vs Love Tap comparison. It is not difficult to get one Love Tap proc off every 5 autoattack equivalents. If you're literally 1v1ing a bruiser, yes, Live MF is better at doing that. If you're anywhere near the teamfight, chances are you can get a proc with a Q bounce or something. Before you say that it's better just to focus one target, the damage advantage of Love Tap over Impure Shots at low stack numbers allows you to switch targets profitably and not lose DPS on your main target (especialy since it extends your steroid) I'm still not convinced by your Runaan's Hurricane argument of building Impure Shots on multiple targets easily because a) you're doing less DPS just from the build you chose and b) again, if your targets are close enough to get hit by Runaan's bolts then they're close enough to target swap for Love Tap procs. If you still want to argue with Hurricane, show me some math.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-07T07:08:48.686+0000) > > I actually did consider that; however, notice that I was comparing only the attack speed steroid. How the base AD nerf affects MF is another matter entirely. I disagree. it plays into the power redistribution that overall lead to her AD be lowered. > > But see, the increased AS steroid actually adds a significant amount of power back into MF's kit, which must at least to some extent balance out the base AD nerf. No it doesn't because for it to, you'd have to be applying the same damage over those 5 seconds, which you aren't. In an ideal scenario where you have the same ad in both cases, it would come to the same, but it isn't the case. > > Difficult to quantify. I've felt that Love Tap has done pretty good damage throughout the game. We'll have to agree to disagree here. > > I'll address the ultimate damage later. Chasing people after ulting is sometimes difficult, but that's hard to quantify so I'll leave it be. > > It's perhaps more realistic than Love Tap's ideal scenario, but that's because Love Tap sets its ideal really high. Love Tap's middle of the road scenario does more than enough damage to break even with Impure Shots. I'm not going to try to quantify that, so again we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not even gonna let that one slide. This is simply untrue. LoveTaps Curve if efficients is much steeper than Impureshots. Saying it's middle of the road scenario breaks even is just wind at that point. > Applying Impure Shots isn't difficult, yes, but that point doesn't necessarily matter if you a) don't get to your ulted targets in time (assuming you ulted multiple people, you may not attack other targets with stacks until the 4 seconds are up if you're focusing one target) or b) Impure Shots simply doesn't do as much damage as Love Tap. If you're in a scenario where you can safely autoattack multiple targets with Runaan's Hurricane (the range of the bolts is ~250 from the main target IIRC, so they have to be pretty close together), you can safely proc Love Tap. I'd say it at least evens out. See, again the difference is that you actualy need to proc Love Tap a sufficient amount of times to break even with Impureshots on top of the AD ratio changes. Runaans applies it to multiple people, but you never really have to do so, as it is safe and optimal to actually focus a priority target. Runnans hits are more of Bonus points than necessary, whereas LoveTap has to be used to even simply come even with Live MF's damage without Impureshots all together. > > I've found that Love Tap is indeed doing plenty of damage in chase scenarios. Again, agree to disagree. > > Other than the chasing scenario, yes, it's about as useful as on Live. You really enjoy cop-out answers, don't you? > > When I say "base AD", I mean the 46 base plus the per-level scaling. That all counts as base AD (by the game's definition as well, since Sheen counts it as base AD). At levels 6, 11, and 16, MF has those AD values. Ah. Well in that case, you added 1 point too many at each level. You start at level 1, lol. > 198% of total AD, actually, given my assumption. But yes 240% if you start with full stacks (which isn't really reasonable imo). First, it isn't max stacks. Max stacks would be 5 stacks. 4 stacks is one less than maximum applied stacks at that level, which for the sake of argument, i used because it squashes any footing in saying that it is unreasonable. 4 autos... Just 4... With Q, that's 3 Autos... Saying 3 auto attacks is unreasonable is rather crazy to me. You are doing more than 4 autos on an engage in lane at level 6, dude... Cmon now...
> You really enjoy cop-out answers, don't you? I'm going to address this first because I think it's important. I do not enjoy cop-out answers. The only reason I'm resorting to using these kinds of answers is because you have not given me any quantitative or objective analysis to back your claims. In short, you haven't shown me any math or proof and you're just saying a lot of things as if they were obviously true. That's not how an argument works. If you want me to address those points, you'll have to show me objective analysis. By not doing so, we get into a cycle of saying "I'm right!" and "No, I'm right!", which is a waste of my time and I assume a waste of yours. I'm not willing to do that with you, no matter how much I enjoy debating League. Please consider this. ~~Also, ad hominem attacks do not make you sound more convincing. Even though you included a disclaimer that you might sound hostile over the internet, that does not give you free reign to be hostile over the internet. I'll ask you to stick to discussing objective points. If you've noticed, I have not attacked you in any way - I'll ask you to do the same for me.~~ Now, moving on to the points you've made.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T02:07:00.875+0000) > > First of all, Strut has only been nerfed at rank 0 and 1. By the time you're hitting teamfights, Strut is probably at rank 2 or more (and even if it isn't, 10 movespeed is not the end of the world). I don't see how it was a better kiting tool before during teamfight phase. I meant more that because the duration is lower now, you have less kiting power, that is again, also with the loss of Impure Shots and her base AD in mind. Basically, your ability to hit a target while you are being chased is overall weaker because of it. > > Moving on to your main point: no, MF does not need to be able to 2v1 for these changes to benefit her. She just needs to be able to be in range of more than 1 enemy champion during the teamfight for a few Love Tap procs in order to benefit. This can happen in a variety of ways. I'll list a few examples: > > a) You're 2v2 botlane. You start a 2v2 fight and start to burst one target - the enemy ADC. The enemy ADC dashes/Flashes away, and you turn on the support. You get a Love Tap proc, and you've benefited already. The amount of damage LoveTap does at early level isn't Bursting anyone enough for the enemy adc to decide they need to flash and dash away. They are just gonna turn and burn on you. For that situation to occur, they would have to be at significantly lower health already, at which point, the Old MF would have gotten the job done anyway. The support isn't gonna just watch you wail on the ADC. If its a Janna, you are gonna get slowed, Knocked p and the opponant is getting a shield to do more damage and soak up hits. In that same scenario, the enemy adc (for reference, Jinx basically has a BF sword over you at this level range just because of her bases, as all other markmens bases were raised.) just out fights you straight up even if you yourself has a Janna doing the same. Additionally, the old MF would be capable of actually fighting at a higher health threshold thanks to ImpureShots and the longer W duration. Remember, Exhaust is a thing. Either way, I have mentioned before how MF's LoveTap is far more easy to proc in lane, by the sheer virtue of Minions existing as a means to proc it. The issue is using it outside of laning phase, where I feel it loses significant practical use. > b) You're 2v2 botlane. You're only in range of one champion so you get your first Love Tap proc on that champion, but then you use Q on the champion and the Q bounces to a minion. You get the reset on Love Tap on your one target and so you've benefited more than once from Love Tap. Again, the damage from LoveTap at this point isn't big enough that it matters. Your follow up damage is too weak at this point to make up for it. > c) You're in a teamfight. You get dove by 2 enemy champions. You flash out and start focusing one champion, but both champions are temporarily neutralized by your team's CC. You switch targets back and forth between the two to get the maximum damage out of Love Tap. OK, I know you admitted to these being specific, but this is way to specific even for me. Cmon now. In a practical situation, you wouldn't be alone to get dove by one enemy champion, let alone 2. Especially when you have your Ultimate to clear the wave anyway, damaging and potentially killing them. If those options aren't available, you have no business being there to get dove, and should just drop your E and leave. > d) You're in a teamfight. Your team is winning the teamfight and the enemy team is retreating. You catch up to two targets with E, then you switch targets back and forth to get maximum damage as they try to run away. I will speak against this as this situation has actually happened to me on the PBE. The enemy simply turns and burns on you, blowing you up instantly. If you are winning the fight so much that they don't have the power to do so, they would have died to your ult in the teamfight anyway, and if not, to your teammates. If they are within range that you can use your E to catch them, there is no reasonable reason they should be alive to begin with. > > Not all of these are going to happen all the time. They're pretty specific situations, but there are many more that I haven't mentioned. Some of them require more team coordination than Live MF does. Certainly, Live MF handles a single diver who cannot be peeled easily better than PBE MF, etc. etc. If I haven't misunderstood your tone, you've been implying that MF needs to be in the thick of the teamfight in order to make any significant use out of Love Tap. If I'm correct in that assumption, then I disagree that you need to be that close in order to make use of it. There is a difference between making use of it and actually using it the way it is meant to be used. That is rather self fulfilling logic you are using. The argument isn't that it can't be made use of. Anything no matter how over or under tuned can find a use. The argument is that it isn't useful or as useful as it should be. But again, that goes into my previous post about how the thing is supposed to interact with the kit versus how it happens in an actual game. A broken phone can be used as a coaster, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. In essence, i am saying that to properly she isn't going to properly use it, because her kit doesn't allow for it. > True to some extent - her sustained damage against a single target is considerably worse now than before. **She still builds like an ADC, meaning her autoattacks still do plenty of damage even if it's lower than before.** I disagree. If she is chasing a frail target, they can easily blow her up due to her low mobility. If she is chasing a tankier target, she will lose the duel if they even have the least bit of damage simply due to her actual sustained damage being so weak. After the update to marksman, MF is playing catchup with basically every AD champion in the game. > I don't actually get what you're trying to say here. If anything, her chase is better than before due to the range increase on E and the increased movespeed of W at higher ranks. If you're talking about how she does less damage during the chase if she's chasing only one target, then that's true but I think that's balanced out by the fact that you can reach them more easily than before. I completely disagree for the aforementioned reason. Because she does less damage during the chase, this gives the enemy more time to either escape or turn on her if their CDs are down. > > If this is true, then I'll retract my statement. I don't see anything about this particular change, though; could you link it if it's not too much trouble? Recently, I've only seen the following buffs: > > - Love Tap now scales faster with level (implicit based on a forum post by a Rioter) > - Love Tap now benefits from lifesteal > - Love Tap now affects towers (half effectiveness) > - Love Tap now extends W by 1 and 2 seconds depending on the target (from 0.75 and 1.5 seconds). > > Thanks for taking the time to reply. I imagine it was a byproduct of the change to it benefiting from Life Steal. I noticed it right after the change was made. League looks at damage under checks to determine what affects they do and do not trigger. I imagine that the damage from LoveTap previously was checked as spell damage so it didn't affect structures or benefit from lifesteal etc. The change to make it benefit from lifesteal was probably done by making it check under AutoAttack, which is checked by critical strikes. I don't know if it was fixed by the time I posted that (i mentioned it in a previous post and asked if it was intended [This is why I questioned whether or not you read the previous posts of this thread to begin with]
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T06:19:24.992+0000) > > I meant more that because the duration is lower now, you have less kiting power, that is again, also with the loss of Impure Shots and her base AD in mind. The AS steroid duration doesn't affect Strut at all. Strut is still always active as long as MF doesn't take damage. Activating W only reactivates the passive (there is no period of time where it cannot be broken), so it really hasn't changed much from Live. > The amount of damage LoveTap does at early level isn't Bursting anyone enough for the enemy adc to decide they need to flash and dash away. They are just gonna turn and burn on you. For that situation to occur, they would have to be at significantly lower health already, at which point, the Old MF would have gotten the job done anyway. Early levels, I agree. Love Tap doesn't do that much damage. PBE MF is tuned more for poking as opposed to all-ins for laning now. I wasn't actually trying to imply that the auto+Love Tap would cause them to Flash; it was more that you engaged on them and they felt the need to Flash away. Again, it's a fairly specific scenario and I understand if you're not convinced by it. > The support isn't gonna just watch you wail on the ADC. If its a Janna, you are gonna get slowed, Knocked p and the opponant is getting a shield to do more damage and soak up hits. Right, but there are certain situations where you can only try to disengage if you get caught. It's just one scenario, so if it's problematic then let's just leave it for now. > In that same scenario, the enemy adc (for reference, Jinx basically has a BF sword over you at this level range just because of her bases, as all other markmens bases were raised.) just out fights you straight up even if you yourself has a Janna doing the same. An extra BF Sword is exaggerating slightly, but point taken. This scenario is entirely laning matchup-dependent and doesn't happen every game. > Additionally, the old MF would be capable of actually fighting at a higher health threshold thanks to ImpureShots and the longer W duration. This is true, though I think I proved that the longer W duration doesn't actually affect MF's damage. > Remember, Exhaust is a thing. For both sides, yes. > Either way, I have mentioned before how MF's LoveTap is far more easy to proc in lane, by the sheer virtue of Minions existing as a means to proc it. The issue is using it outside of laning phase, where I feel it loses significant practical use. It does lose ease of access, but I haven't found it to be nearly as difficult as you've been stating. Since you don't feel my argument for this is enough and I'm equally unconvinced by your argument for this point, we'll (again) have to just disagree. > OK, I know you admitted to these being specific, but this is way to specific even for me. Cmon now. In a practical situation, you wouldn't be alone to get dove by one enemy champion, let alone 2. Especially when you have your Ultimate to clear the wave anyway, damaging and potentially killing them. If those options aren't available, you have no business being there to get dove, and should just drop your E and leave. I'm referring to teamfight phase. At no point do I reference getting dove under tower. By this I mean engage tanks or assassins diving on you through your team. > I will speak against this as this situation has actually happened to me on the PBE. > The enemy simply turns and burns on you, blowing you up instantly. I've actually had far more success bursting people who turn with PBE MF than Live MF, though both are pretty good at it. > If you are winning the fight so much that they don't have the power to do so, they would have died to your ult in the teamfight anyway, and if not, to your teammates. If they are within range that you can use your E to catch them, there is no reasonable reason they should be alive to begin with. A 1000 range slow can be a catch tool (pre-teamfight). In addition, some champions may be able to actually get out of your ult before they die to it. Flash exists and so do dashes. If anyone survives, E can help your team catch them. > There is a difference between making use of it and actually using it the way it is meant to be used. > > That is rather self fulfilling logic you are using. The argument isn't that it can't be made use of. Anything no matter how over or under tuned can find a use. The argument is that it isn't useful or as useful as it should be. But again, that goes into my previous post about how the thing is supposed to interact with the kit versus how it happens in an actual game. > > A broken phone can be used as a coaster, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. > > In essence, i am saying that to properly she isn't going to properly use it, because her kit doesn't allow for it. Yes, this passive could possibly be better if she had a dash instead of Strut. I understand what you're saying and while I agree it's not as useful as it could be, it's still useful. She has Q to multi-proc it and Strut + E do allow her to kite around fights. I think that's enough, but that's just my opinion. > I disagree. If she is chasing a frail target, they can easily blow her up due to her low mobility. Again, not in my experience. MF tends to burst squishies harder than almost anyone except assassins and burst mages. > If she is chasing a tankier target, she will lose the duel if they even have the least bit of damage simply due to her actual sustained damage being so weak. After the update to marksman, MF is playing catchup with basically every AD champion in the game. This has some merit. Whether or not she loses the duel is dependent on who she's dueling. ADs still have the power to duel most tanks, assuming equal gold. MF can still do this. She doesn't handle tanky bruisers nearly as well as before, though. I don't think she's playing catchup; they're not even running for the same target at this point. I think we still disagree overall on how serious the problem is, though, so I don't think there's much more to argue on this point. > I imagine it was a byproduct of the change to it benefiting from Life Steal. I noticed it right after the change was made. That'd probably be a bug, then. If the intended buff also allowed it to crit, I can't imagine that it was intentional. > I don't know if it was fixed by the time I posted that (i mentioned it in a previous post and asked if it was intended [This is why I questioned whether or not you read the previous posts of this thread to begin with] Fair enough. I must've missed it when reading. On a side note, you might've noticed I've shut down a lot of arguments simply by saying we have to simply disagree. That's only because we've gone through one full round of giving our arguments for those points and neither of us is convinced. I don't think much more will change if we reiterate our arguments to each other, so I won't argue those anymore unless there's a new argument to give.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T01:41:45.152+0000) > > No need for a comment like this. I've read everything and I still think this way. Therefore, it simply means I disagree with your assertions. The fact that you think that you are only "reminding" people of things means that you believe that you are unquestionably correct in your thinking. That may just be a communication issue since this is only writing and in fact I may also sound that way, but it's entirely possible that you are wrong. It is also entirely possible that I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll try to address your points. > My post was to avoid any misunderstandings as I tend to get heated in discussions like this. I am perfectly aware that I am capable of being wrong, and in all honesty, I'd prefer to find out I am. > You do not have to use Love Tap at all for the new steroid to break even in terms of damage with the old steroid. Let us ignore the ability cooldown for a moment. The damage benefit a 120% attack speed steroid for 3 seconds provides is entirely equivalent to a 60% attack speed steroid for 6 seconds. Here's the math, assuming you have 100 AD and 1.0 base AD (for sake of argument): > > 60% AS/6secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 60%) x 6 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** > 120% AS/3secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 120%) x 3 seconds + 100 AD x 1.0 x 3 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** > > If you do the math, both steroids cause you do deal 960 over 6 seconds. The 6-second version causes you to deal damage that scales linearly with time (160 damage per second) while the 3-second version causes you to deal 220 damage per second during the steroid and 100 damage per second after the steroid ends. If anything, the second version is better because it deals 660 damage in the first 3 seconds (the first version deals 480); burst matters in League, so the second one is more valuable. > > When you take into account the steroid extension through using Love Tap on PBE MF, it becomes even better than the old version. Landing Love Tap even once on champions brings it to a 5 second duration, which causes you to do **1200 damage over 6 seconds**. Now the new steroid even does more damage than the old one. This is why I'm saying that at least for the purposes of the AS steroid, Love Tap has not sucked out any power from her kit. I just wanna point out how you flubbed up quite a bit here. In your example, you used a scenario where Both MF's have the same AD, but Live MF and PBE MF don't. I see what you were trying to say with your comparison, but you have to remember that the drop in MF's AD wasn't purely just so LoveTap can exist, but also for it's interaction with the W change to exist, which is what I meant when I said power was sucked out of it. That is also ignoring the loss of Impure Shots, though that can be ignored mostly due to it being replaced with LoveTap. Even then, if we take into account both Lave Tap and Impure Shots in both cases, MF is dealing more consistent damage throughout the entire game, as well as dealing upwards above and beyond the damage LoveTap does on initial proc. In a realistic scenario, MF will Proc LoveTap two Times amusing Q bounces to something. I already feel 2 is being generous, but lets say you manage to get a stray auto into another target and do another back to the original for a third Proc. Impure Shots however is dealing increasing damage on hit per hit, damage that is and can then be replied by her Ultimate. Or Max stack damage after having used your ultimate already. An argument can be made that Max stack damage is an ideal scenario and LoveTaps ideal scenario way outdoes Impure shots, but the main thing to remember is what I said about consistency. Impure Shots' Ideal scenario quite simply is far more realistic than LoveTaps. Applying Impure Shots onto the entire enemy team is as simple as a well placed and timed Ulti, or additionally, the purchase of Runnan's hurricane (the purchase rate of the item on Live not withstanding), and rewards her for doing her job and staying behind and shooting down priority targets. This simply isn't the case with Love Tap, and I am sure you can agree to this. > Having the range be increased has allowed her to make many aggressive catches that she wasn't able to before, but I'll concede that I may have exaggerated. I've found it useful for my playstyle, but not everyone will. I've found her ability to catch people less significant with the changes because her follow up damage after LoveTap is so much less. Meaning unless Love Tap is doing so much damage on hit that a gust of wind would topple your target, catching doesn't mean as much. Otherwise I find it more or less as effective as on Live in that particular use. Where I find it more impactful is as a scouting tool. Since It reveals the target area, it makes checking Bushes and unwarded areas much less dangerous. It is also, better for her setup into Ultimate, like I mentioned before. > Two points: her ult does effectively have a base damage because she will always have some amount of base AD at the levels she gets her ult. At levels 6, 11, and 16, she has 52, 57, and 62 AD. First, that is I assume with Runes, as MF's base is 46. >The ratios for her ult at those levels is (with the new buff to 75% AD per wave) 900%, > 1050%, and 1200%. Therefore, the base damage on her ult is 468, 600, and 992 at those levels. After that, you can treat the scaling part of her ult to be 900%, 1050%, and 1200% of bonus AD. Looking at it that way, I think it's perfectly fair. Yes, it deals its damage over a longer duration, but its damage has not actually decreased in the first two seconds compared to Live MF's ult. Multiplying each of those figures by 2/3 to simulate a 2-second ult, they are: > > Level 6: 312 + 600% of bonus AD > Level 11: 400 + 700% of bonus AD > Level 16: 661 + 800% of bonus AD > > This is somewhat difficult to compare to Live MF since she has a stacking mechanic for ult damage, but we can try. Assuming your targets started with **0 Impure Shots stacks**, this is the damage on Live MF Ult. Like you said, it is harder to compare their Ultimate's due to Impure Shots, but I think it is worth calculating a situation with lets say 5 stacks. Getting more Before an ultimate is perfectly feasible, especially at level 6 in lane since you will be hitting Q's and auto harass. Heck, let's lower it to 4 since it doesn't make a difference calculation-wise and is even more reasonable. In that situation at Level 6 her Ulti is doing 400 + 80% of Bonus AD + 240% of total AD. That is a significant difference. (cont.)
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-07T05:34:30.976+0000) > I just wanna point out how you flubbed up quite a bit here. In your example, you used a scenario where Both MF's have the same AD, but Live MF and PBE MF don't. I actually did consider that; however, notice that I was comparing only the attack speed steroid. How the base AD nerf affects MF is another matter entirely. > I see what you were trying to say with your comparison, but you have to remember that the drop in MF's AD wasn't purely just so LoveTap can exist, but also for it's interaction with the W change to exist, which is what I meant when I said power was sucked out of it. But see, the increased AS steroid actually adds a significant amount of power back into MF's kit, which must at least to some extent balance out the base AD nerf. > Even then, if we take into account both Lave Tap and Impure Shots in both cases, MF is dealing more consistent damage throughout the entire game, as well as dealing upwards above and beyond the damage LoveTap does on initial proc. Difficult to quantify. I've felt that Love Tap has done pretty good damage throughout the game. We'll have to agree to disagree here. > Impure Shots however is dealing increasing damage on hit per hit, damage that is and can then be replied by her Ultimate. Or Max stack damage after having used your ultimate already. I'll address the ultimate damage later. Chasing people after ulting is sometimes difficult, but that's hard to quantify so I'll leave it be. > An argument can be made that Max stack damage is an ideal scenario and LoveTaps ideal scenario way outdoes Impure shots, but the main thing to remember is what I said about consistency. Impure Shots' Ideal scenario quite simply is far more realistic than LoveTaps. It's perhaps more realistic than Love Tap's ideal scenario, but that's because Love Tap sets its ideal really high. Love Tap's middle of the road scenario does more than enough damage to break even with Impure Shots. I'm not going to try to quantify that, so again we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. > Applying Impure Shots onto the entire enemy team is as simple as a well placed and timed Ulti, or additionally, the purchase of Runnan's hurricane (the purchase rate of the item on Live not withstanding), and rewards her for doing her job and staying behind and shooting down priority targets. This simply isn't the case with Love Tap, and I am sure you can agree to this. Applying Impure Shots isn't difficult, yes, but that point doesn't necessarily matter if you a) don't get to your ulted targets in time (assuming you ulted multiple people, you may not attack other targets with stacks until the 4 seconds are up if you're focusing one target) or b) Impure Shots simply doesn't do as much damage as Love Tap. If you're in a scenario where you can safely autoattack multiple targets with Runaan's Hurricane (the range of the bolts is ~250 from the main target IIRC, so they have to be pretty close together), you can safely proc Love Tap. I'd say it at least evens out. > I've found her ability to catch people less significant with the changes because her follow up damage after LoveTap is so much less. Meaning unless Love Tap is doing so much damage on hit that a gust of wind would topple your target, catching doesn't mean as much. I've found that Love Tap is indeed doing plenty of damage in chase scenarios. Again, agree to disagree. > Otherwise I find it more or less as effective as on Live in that particular use. Where I find it more impactful is as a scouting tool. Since It reveals the target area, it makes checking Bushes and unwarded areas much less dangerous. It is also, better for her setup into Ultimate, like I mentioned before. Other than the chasing scenario, yes, it's about as useful as on Live. > First, that is I assume with Runes, as MF's base is 46. When I say "base AD", I mean the 46 base plus the per-level scaling. That all counts as base AD (by the game's definition as well, since Sheen counts it as base AD). At levels 6, 11, and 16, MF has those AD values. > Like you said, it is harder to compare their Ultimate's due to Impure Shots, but I think it is worth calculating a situation with lets say 5 stacks. Getting more Before an ultimate is perfectly feasible, especially at level 6 in lane since you will be hitting Q's and auto harass. Heck, let's lower it to 4 since it doesn't make a difference calculation-wise and is even more reasonable. I actually included Impure Shots stacks in their entirety. The assumption is that the targets start with 0 stacks. If you notice, I have a total AD ratio on my first Live MF ult calculation - that's Impure Shots. Point being, my calculations are fine if you take the 0 stack to start assumption to be fine. If it is now clear to you what I did in my math, I'd like you to revisit the point I made about the difference between Live ult and PBE ult. > In that situation at Level 6 her Ulti is doing > 400 + 80% of Bonus AD + 240% of total AD. 198% of total AD, actually, given my assumption. But yes 240% if you start with full stacks (which isn't really reasonable imo).
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T00:56:21.482+0000) > > After reading through your assessment of her kit, it seems you have missed quite a bit in terms of analyzing the changes that were made. > AS a precaution, i will apologize in advance if I may sound a bit hostile in the following posts, btu it is because I am frankly fed up with reiterating and reminding people of the same things over and over. For future reference, i'd prefer if you read all the posts on the thread instead before hand. No need for a comment like this. I've read everything and I still think this way. Therefore, it simply means I disagree with your assertions. The fact that you think that you are only "reminding" people of things means that you believe that you are unquestionably correct in your thinking. That may just be a communication issue since this is only writing and in fact I may also sound that way, but it's entirely possible that you are wrong. It is also entirely possible that I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll try to address your points. > First I wanna say that I find LoveTaps interaction with her Q completely uninteresting. Its Just more damage on hit. You are essentially doing the exact same thing with it as before except now it does a bit more damage, damage that is compensated by the fact that her ratios were lowered but that is besides the point. It really doesn't change the way Q is at all. On Live, Q was already a very powerful lane tool, maybe even a bit broken. It's problem, as has been mentioned over and over is that it gets in the way of her attack rotations. > > I first observed it back when UltraRapidFire first was released 2 years ago. When you stop to Q someone, you will notice that the time you spend Q'ing takes much longer than simply autoing and you would have done more damage simply autoing, making it scale backwards into late game. I agree that Love Tap does not really change how her Q is used in lane. It does sometimes feel as though it is obstructing her attack rotation, but that is because of the cast time. It does in fact increase her DPS upon use for most of the game (I do not know the point in time at which it becomes an impediment to DPS, but if a break-even point does exist it would only be after she has significant attack speed and crit). > Again, this is untrue. To encourage LoveTap's use, The Steroid was doubled, but the duration was cut in half, making you have to continuously LoveTap to increase the duration. This goes in hand with what i was saying about her LoveTap sucking power out of her kit. You do not have to use Love Tap at all for the new steroid to break even in terms of damage with the old steroid. Let us ignore the ability cooldown for a moment. The damage benefit a 120% attack speed steroid for 3 seconds provides is entirely equivalent to a 60% attack speed steroid for 6 seconds. Here's the math, assuming you have 100 AD and 1.0 base AD (for sake of argument): 60% AS/6secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 60%) x 6 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** 120% AS/3secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 120%) x 3 seconds + 100 AD x 1.0 x 3 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** If you do the math, both steroids cause you do deal 960 over 6 seconds. The 6-second version causes you to deal damage that scales linearly with time (160 damage per second) while the 3-second version causes you to deal 220 damage per second during the steroid and 100 damage per second after the steroid ends. If anything, the second version is better because it deals 660 damage in the first 3 seconds (the first version deals 480); burst matters in League, so the second one is more valuable. When you take into account the steroid extension through using Love Tap on PBE MF, it becomes even better than the old version. Landing Love Tap even once on champions brings it to a 5 second duration, which causes you to do **1200 damage over 6 seconds**. Now the new steroid even does more damage than the old one. This is why I'm saying that at least for the purposes of the AS steroid, Love Tap has not sucked out any power from her kit. > I will not pretend the range on her E being increased isn't appreciated, but calling it Huge is way to much an overstatement. I'd like to point out how its duration was cut to make the slow more powerful several patches ago anyway. Increasing the range was warranted. Having the range be increased has allowed her to make many aggressive catches that she wasn't able to before, but I'll concede that I may have exaggerated. I've found it useful for my playstyle, but not everyone will. > Its more complicated than that. Her total damage with ult at point 2 and 3 with her Ultimate are better. But her Level 1 Ulti isn't since it scales with Total AD now, and doesn't have base damage, which is puzzling to me since they lowered her Bases and growths but I digress. > Whats more, this total damage is also over a longer duration now. > Live Ulti essentially has 2 AD scalings, having a straight AD scaling while also applying Impure Shots, which also scaled with AD. This along with the base damage meant it did more damage at lower level, as well as over a shorter duration. Two points: her ult does effectively have a base damage because she will always have some amount of base AD at the levels she gets her ult. At levels 6, 11, and 16, she has 52, 57, and 62 AD. The ratios for her ult at those levels is (with the new buff to 75% AD per wave) 900%, 1050%, and 1200%. Therefore, the base damage on her ult is 468, 600, and 992 at those levels. After that, you can treat the scaling part of her ult to be 900%, 1050%, and 1200% of bonus AD. Looking at it that way, I think it's perfectly fair. Yes, it deals its damage over a longer duration, but its damage has not actually decreased in the first two seconds compared to Live MF's ult. Multiplying each of those figures by 2/3 to simulate a 2-second ult, they are: Level 6: 312 + 600% of bonus AD Level 11: 400 + 700% of bonus AD Level 16: 661 + 800% of bonus AD This is somewhat difficult to compare to Live MF since she has a stacking mechanic for ult damage, but we can try. Assuming your targets started with 0 Impure Shots stacks, this is the damage on Live MF ult: Level 6: 400 + 80% of bonus AD + 198% of total AD Level 11: 600 + 140% of bonus AD + 210% of total AD Level 16: 1000 + 200% of bonus AD + 216% of total AD I'll convert the total AD ratios to bonus AD and add the difference to the base damage (same way as I did with PBE MF): Level 6: 521 + 278% of bonus AD Level 11: 760 + 350% of bonus AD Level 16: 1201 + 416% of bonus AD So now it's easier to compare Live and PBE MF. PBE MF has far lower base damage but far higher scalings. Plugging these numbers into Excel, I've found that for both versions of the ult to do equal damage in 2 seconds, you need this much bonus AD at these levels: Level 6: 65 bonus AD (BF + Pickaxe) Level 11: 103 bonus AD (BT + Pickaxe) Level 16: 141 bonus AD (BT + Youmuu's) By the way, I realize Pickaxe doesn't build into Youmuu's. I'm just illustrating with an example of the items you need to break even. As I've stated in my own feedback post (not addressed to you), the level 6 ult may be a bit weak compared to Live MF simply because it's quite difficult to get 65 AD by level 6. However, the other break-even points are quite easy to reach with an AD-heavy build. If you're not running an AD-heavy build, you've made the decision to improve her autos instead - that's fine. Point is, it's not difficult to break even with Live MF ult even at 2 seconds. If you get more AD at the points I've listed, then you're actually doing more damage than Live MF's ult within 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, the remaining 1 second is an opportunity for you to get more AoE damage than Live MF can. You don't have to channel for the rest of the time if you don't want to. Another benefit that I haven't mentioned is that Live MF's ult has more damage loaded on the end of that channel due to the stacking mechanic; it is more punishing for Live MF to cancel her ult than it is for PBE MF. If you trust my match, here's the damage for a one-second ult channel for Live vs PBE at the given levels: Level 6 Live: 260 + 100% of bonus AD PBE: 156 + 300% of bonus AD Break-even: 52 bonus AD Level 11 Live: 380 + 130% of bonus AD PBE:200 + 350% of bonus AD Break-even: 82 bonus AD Level 16 Live: 600 + 160% of bonus AD PBE: 330 + 400% of bonus AD Break-even: 113 bonus AD As you can see, the break-evens got lower, which means PBE ult exceeds Live ult's damage earlier if both ults are only channeled for 1 second. I'll continue in another reply since this post has almost hit the word limit.
> MF already had a role and identity. The issue is it wasn't well pronounced, not that it didn't exist. This one's my bad. My intent was to say the same thing as what you're saying here: that her role wasn't really focused before. My point is that since it wasn't well-pronounced, it's difficult to say for sure what her intended design direction was - and it's also difficult to say that the current design direction is wrong because it is the extension of one interpretation of her previous design: to do lots of damage to lots of target with lots of bullets. Love Tap just goes to the extreme of that design path, which deviates from what she can do on Live because she's more of an all-rounder on Live with some clear strengths. I personally think that this is a fair interpretation of her fantasy and I'm enjoying where it's going so far. > There is 2 problems with this. > > 1) Initial Burst isn't the play pattern that MF is being geared towards, not is it coinciding in conjunction with the role and identity Riot seems to be pushing her into, nor the one I personally feel fits her. The amount of Damage LoveTap can do is stupid at certain pints in the game. I hit a Zed for what was probably 80% of his health before dying to him because I had no follow up damage and, well, its Zed.... That is WAY to much damage for what it is supposed to be used for and for a skill that has zero cost. You might be right in that burst is not what MF is being geared toward, but many of the changes point to Riot intending to increase her burst. Love Tap is one change; the W steroid is another. Since she lost her stacking damage, she might not be a great duelist if other things were to stay the same. Many people do like her because she's a good duelist, so what's Riot's way of fixing it? Giving her more burst in lieu of sustained damage because burst is fantastic for duels. The more damage you can deal in a short amount of time, the less time your opponents have to react to your actions. In short, I think this is just Riot's way of retaining MF's dueling abilities while also including the new play pattern Love Tap brings. > 2) The intended play pattern it is supposed to be used in simply isn't realistically achievable unless the enemy is completely composed of immobile champions with no CC, or not focusing you for whatever reason even thought hey should be. Kiting is basically discouraged by the design, despite Strut being a good kiting tool (a better one before the changes might I add), and in the event that you are somehow able to constantly be procing lovetaps and keeping Strut up the entire time, the damage you would be doing is ridiculous, being offset by the fact that it just isn't going to happen. > > I mentioned this before but for LoveTap to be effective in its current design, MF must essentially be able to 2 V 1, which is against the champs design philosophy. It conflicted design. First of all, Strut has only been nerfed at rank 0 and 1. By the time you're hitting teamfights, Strut is probably at rank 2 or more (and even if it isn't, 10 movespeed is not the end of the world). I don't see how it was a better kiting tool before during teamfight phase. Moving on to your main point: no, MF does not need to be able to 2v1 for these changes to benefit her. She just needs to be able to be in range of more than 1 enemy champion during the teamfight for a few Love Tap procs in order to benefit. This can happen in a variety of ways. I'll list a few examples: a) You're 2v2 botlane. You start a 2v2 fight and start to burst one target - the enemy ADC. The enemy ADC dashes/Flashes away, and you turn on the support. You get a Love Tap proc, and you've benefited already. b) You're 2v2 botlane. You're only in range of one champion so you get your first Love Tap proc on that champion, but then you use Q on the champion and the Q bounces to a minion. You get the reset on Love Tap on your one target and so you've benefited more than once from Love Tap. c) You're in a teamfight. You get dove by 2 enemy champions. You flash out and start focusing one champion, but both champions are temporarily neutralized by your team's CC. You switch targets back and forth between the two to get the maximum damage out of Love Tap. d) You're in a teamfight. Your team is winning the teamfight and the enemy team is retreating. You catch up to two targets with E, then you switch targets back and forth to get maximum damage as they try to run away. e) You're in a teamfight. You see two targets in a line. You cast Q on one target and it bounces to the second. You've gotten two Love Tap procs off and if you auto the closer target, you've gotten three. etc. etc. Not all of these are going to happen all the time. They're pretty specific situations, but there are many more that I haven't mentioned. Some of them require more team coordination than Live MF does. Certainly, Live MF handles a single diver who cannot be peeled easily better than PBE MF, etc. etc. If I haven't misunderstood your tone, you've been implying that MF needs to be in the thick of the teamfight in order to make any significant use out of Love Tap. If I'm correct in that assumption, then I disagree that you need to be that close in order to make use of it. > This is a very bad comparison. Not only is Darius very much not highrisk high reward, Darius doesn't need to get a Pentakill to do his job or be effective. MF needs to LoveTap to do her job and be effective . (~Or you could just press the R button and call it a day~) Darius may be more forgiving than MF simply because he is a melee champion and has many survivability options (building tanky, Q healing); however, Darius needs bleed stacks to provide the level of threat he is known to provide and if he doesn't get 5 bleed stacks and is not absurdly ahead, then he does not do the damage he needs to do and simply dies while getting kited. Seeing how easy it is to kite to death a non-fed Darius, I'd say he is very much a high risk high reward champion. You're probably not convinced at this point, so let's just drop the Darius example and say that I made a mistake by bringing it up. > Her sustained damage in a teamfight is so low now that enemy tanks and bruisers trying to get her don't even have to worry or care about the fact that she is hitting them. True to some extent - her sustained damage against a single target is considerably worse now than before. She still builds like an ADC, meaning her autoattacks still do plenty of damage even if it's lower than before. >Her chasing is pointless when she can't properly follow up on the chase now, leaving her easily turned and burned on in way more situations. If you take my hyperbole literally, yes it is an exaggeration, but it is the only truly meaningful contribution she makes to teamfights now, baring the extremely unlikely scenario where people let her proc lovetap. I don't actually get what you're trying to say here. If anything, her chase is better than before due to the range increase on E and the increased movespeed of W at higher ranks. If you're talking about how she does less damage during the chase if she's chasing only one target, then that's true but I think that's balanced out by the fact that you can reach them more easily than before. > Allow me to correct your correction. It can in fact critically strike now after the recent changes. If this is true, then I'll retract my statement. I don't see anything about this particular change, though; could you link it if it's not too much trouble? Recently, I've only seen the following buffs: - Love Tap now scales faster with level (implicit based on a forum post by a Rioter) - Love Tap now benefits from lifesteal - Love Tap now affects towers (half effectiveness) - Love Tap now extends W by 1 and 2 seconds depending on the target (from 0.75 and 1.5 seconds). Thanks for taking the time to reply.
: > [{quoted}](name=Everlark,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e0000,timestamp=2015-11-06T16:10:57.327+0000) > > Highly disagree with this point. Riot hasn't actually sucked that much power from her kit. If anything, there has been a huge power increase in her kit. After reading through your assessment of her kit, it seems you have missed quite a bit in terms of analyzing the changes that were made. AS a precaution, i will apologize in advance if I may sound a bit hostile in the following posts, btu it is because I am frankly fed up with reiterating and reminding people of the same things over and over. For future reference, i'd prefer if you read all the posts on the thread instead before hand. >Q is the same (better in lane with Love Tap). First I wanna say that I find LoveTaps interaction with her Q completely uninteresting. Its Just more damage on hit. You are essentially doing the exact same thing with it as before except now it does a bit more damage, damage that is compensated by the fact that her ratios were lowered but that is besides the point. It really doesn't change the way Q is at all. On Live, Q was already a very powerful lane tool, maybe even a bit broken. It's problem, as has been mentioned over and over is that it gets in the way of her attack rotations. I first observed it back when UltraRapidFire first was released 2 years ago. When you stop to Q someone, you will notice that the time you spend Q'ing takes much longer than simply autoing and you would have done more damage simply autoing, making it scale backwards into late game. >W is an overall better steroid (ignoring the stacking passive for now, since that's directly comparable to Love Tap). Again, this is untrue. To encourage LoveTap's use, The Steroid was doubled, but the duration was cut in half, making you have to continuously LoveTap to increase the duration. This goes in hand with what i was saying about her LoveTap sucking power out of her kit. >E's range increase is huge. I will not pretend the range on her E being increased isn't appreciated, but calling it Huge is way to much an overstatement. I'd like to point out how its duration was cut to make the slow more powerful several patches ago anyway. Increasing the range was warranted. >Ult's damage is hugely superior to Live. Its more complicated than that. Her total damage with ult at point 2 and 3 with her Ultimate are better. But her Level 1 Ulti isn't since it scales with Total AD now, and doesn't have base damage, which is puzzling to me since they lowered her Bases and growths but I digress. Whats more, this total damage is also over a longer duration now. Live Ulti essentially has 2 AD scalings, having a straight AD scaling while also applying Impure Shots, which also scaled with AD. This along with the base damage meant it did more damage at lower level, as well as over a shorter duration. >The only two things that have been weakened are her base AD and the removal of Impure Shots's stacking passive. See the above. >The base AD is to slightly offset Love Tap's power. Whether or not Impure Shots was better than Love Tap is now after that offset is considered is debatable since it's situationally better and situationally worse, but let's say for argument's sake that Impure Shots was better. **Her role wasn't really well-defined before, so I don't think you can say this makes it so she can't do her job - she never really had a distinct job before. If anything, Love Tap now lets her do a job that has been defined for her. I doubt you believe me at this point, but hear me out.** And there we have it. I think I speak for the bulk of the MF player base as well as Riot themselves when I say "**you are inexorably incorrect**. The whole philosophy behind the recent Live Patch, as well as the current PBE changes were to emphasize MF's identity and to push her more into the role she works best in already. > _Though the days of Miss Fortune’s dominance have long passed, she’s still a natural pick when looking to combo tons of bullets into an enemy team. We’re looking to push the relevance of Miss Fortune in the team-fighting compositions she’s already good in, rendering the recipients of a well-placed Bullet Time into nothin’ but powder monkeys._ >**Skarizard 10/1/2015** MF already had a role and identity. The issue is it wasn't well pronounced, not that it didn't exist. > Yes, in most situations it's used for initial burst. If they focus you, it's difficult to make use of it. Maybe you can occasionally reset it with Q on your focus target and get some more sustained damage on them. Love Tap is not a universally useful passive, however. If you look at it as a sort of snowball passive in that it's most useful when you're a) ahead enough to the burst matters against most of their team or b) your team is protecting you sufficiently and so you're not being threatened that much, Love Tap allows you to snowball extremely hard. There is 2 problems with this. 1) Initial Burst isn't the play pattern that MF is being geared towards, not is it coinciding in conjunction with the role and identity Riot seems to be pushing her into, nor the one I personally feel fits her. The amount of Damage LoveTap can do is stupid at certain pints in the game. I hit a Zed for what was probably 80% of his health before dying to him because I had no follow up damage and, well, its Zed.... That is WAY to much damage for what it is supposed to be used for and for a skill that has zero cost. 2) The intended play pattern it is supposed to be used in simply isn't realistically achievable unless the enemy is completely composed of immobile champions with no CC, or not focusing you for whatever reason even thought hey should be. Kiting is basically discouraged by the design, despite Strut being a good kiting tool (a better one before the changes might I add), and in the event that you are somehow able to constantly be procing lovetaps and keeping Strut up the entire time, the damage you would be doing is ridiculous, being offset by the fact that it just isn't going to happen. I mentioned this before but for LoveTap to be effective in its current design, MF must essentially be able to 2 V 1, which is against the champs design philosophy. It conflicted design. > Its power along with new W's steroid is insane. If you can get it off, your sustained damage against multiple targets simply can't be matched. See the above. >In that sense, it's a high-risk, high-reward passive not unlike someone like Darius. He gets kited in most scenarios, sure. You don't usually get a pentakill with his ult. However, if he gets ahead even slightly and you forget to kite him around for a second, then he becomes this huge unkillable tank that can run through your entire team. This is a very bad comparison. Not only is Darius very much not highrisk high reward, Darius doesn't need to get a Pentakill to do his job or be effective. MF needs to LoveTap to do her job and be effective . (~Or you could just press the R button and call it a day~) If you want High Risk, High reward, look at Draven. > As a side note, Love Tap also makes Q's bounce remain useful during teamfights. I've thought for a long time that Live MF's Q was only good for what was effectively an autoattack reset in teamfights (i.e. burst the main target faster), but having Love Tap proc on the bounce target makes it an incredibly threatening tool for unexpected damage if positioned correctly. I've had it do roughly 700 damage on a normal bounce from a tank to a squishy target. See my assessment of Q higher up. on this post. > Besides, MF contributes way more than just an ult during teamfights. She still has the sustained damage of an ADC, though it might be lower than average (though the average has changed a lot in preseason) if you don't use Love Tap. She can chase extremely well between Strut and her new E. She can burst a single target. Saying that her ult is the only useful thing she provides is a bit of an exaggeration. > Her sustained damage in a teamfight is so low now that enemy tanks and bruisers trying to get her don't even have to worry or care about the fact that she is hitting them. Her chasing is pointless when she can't properly follow up on the chase now, leaving her easily turned and burned on in way more situations. If you take my hyperbole literally, yes it is an exaggeration, but it is the only truly meaningful contribution she makes to teamfights now, baring the extremely unlikely scenario where people let her proc lovetap. > The "glorified Sheen Proc" is the average use case scenario, I think. It's still useful, just not to the extent that it's designed around. Is that a problem? I don't really think so, seeing as I also don't think that the passive is meant to always be used to its fullest extent; its full power is incredibly high because they haven't capped its maximum use case aside from the attackspeed cap (you can proc Love Tap on literally every auto if given the chance). Even if I only make use of it once or twice in a teamfight I'm pretty satisfied with what I get out of it. See the above, the above before it, and the above before it. As well as the above before it. > Small correction: Love Tap can never do more damage than her autos. It maxes out at 100% of total AD and cannot crit and does not apply on-hit effects again. Therefore, it always does equal or less damage than one autoattack. But yes, they did try to make Love Tap more central to her kit. Allow me to correct your correction. It can in fact critically strike now after the recent changes. (cont.)
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e00000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T00:56:21.482+0000) > > After reading through your assessment of her kit, it seems you have missed quite a bit in terms of analyzing the changes that were made. > AS a precaution, i will apologize in advance if I may sound a bit hostile in the following posts, btu it is because I am frankly fed up with reiterating and reminding people of the same things over and over. For future reference, i'd prefer if you read all the posts on the thread instead before hand. No need for a comment like this. I've read everything and I still think this way. Therefore, it simply means I disagree with your assertions. The fact that you think that you are only "reminding" people of things means that you believe that you are unquestionably correct in your thinking. That may just be a communication issue since this is only writing and in fact I may also sound that way, but it's entirely possible that you are wrong. It is also entirely possible that I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll try to address your points. > First I wanna say that I find LoveTaps interaction with her Q completely uninteresting. Its Just more damage on hit. You are essentially doing the exact same thing with it as before except now it does a bit more damage, damage that is compensated by the fact that her ratios were lowered but that is besides the point. It really doesn't change the way Q is at all. On Live, Q was already a very powerful lane tool, maybe even a bit broken. It's problem, as has been mentioned over and over is that it gets in the way of her attack rotations. > > I first observed it back when UltraRapidFire first was released 2 years ago. When you stop to Q someone, you will notice that the time you spend Q'ing takes much longer than simply autoing and you would have done more damage simply autoing, making it scale backwards into late game. I agree that Love Tap does not really change how her Q is used in lane. It does sometimes feel as though it is obstructing her attack rotation, but that is because of the cast time. It does in fact increase her DPS upon use for most of the game (I do not know the point in time at which it becomes an impediment to DPS, but if a break-even point does exist it would only be after she has significant attack speed and crit). > Again, this is untrue. To encourage LoveTap's use, The Steroid was doubled, but the duration was cut in half, making you have to continuously LoveTap to increase the duration. This goes in hand with what i was saying about her LoveTap sucking power out of her kit. You do not have to use Love Tap at all for the new steroid to break even in terms of damage with the old steroid. Let us ignore the ability cooldown for a moment. The damage benefit a 120% attack speed steroid for 3 seconds provides is entirely equivalent to a 60% attack speed steroid for 6 seconds. Here's the math, assuming you have 100 AD and 1.0 base AD (for sake of argument): 60% AS/6secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 60%) x 6 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** 120% AS/3secs does 100 AD x 1.0 x (1 + 120%) x 3 seconds + 100 AD x 1.0 x 3 seconds = **960 damage over 6 seconds** If you do the math, both steroids cause you do deal 960 over 6 seconds. The 6-second version causes you to deal damage that scales linearly with time (160 damage per second) while the 3-second version causes you to deal 220 damage per second during the steroid and 100 damage per second after the steroid ends. If anything, the second version is better because it deals 660 damage in the first 3 seconds (the first version deals 480); burst matters in League, so the second one is more valuable. When you take into account the steroid extension through using Love Tap on PBE MF, it becomes even better than the old version. Landing Love Tap even once on champions brings it to a 5 second duration, which causes you to do **1200 damage over 6 seconds**. Now the new steroid even does more damage than the old one. This is why I'm saying that at least for the purposes of the AS steroid, Love Tap has not sucked out any power from her kit. > I will not pretend the range on her E being increased isn't appreciated, but calling it Huge is way to much an overstatement. I'd like to point out how its duration was cut to make the slow more powerful several patches ago anyway. Increasing the range was warranted. Having the range be increased has allowed her to make many aggressive catches that she wasn't able to before, but I'll concede that I may have exaggerated. I've found it useful for my playstyle, but not everyone will. > Its more complicated than that. Her total damage with ult at point 2 and 3 with her Ultimate are better. But her Level 1 Ulti isn't since it scales with Total AD now, and doesn't have base damage, which is puzzling to me since they lowered her Bases and growths but I digress. > Whats more, this total damage is also over a longer duration now. > Live Ulti essentially has 2 AD scalings, having a straight AD scaling while also applying Impure Shots, which also scaled with AD. This along with the base damage meant it did more damage at lower level, as well as over a shorter duration. Two points: her ult does effectively have a base damage because she will always have some amount of base AD at the levels she gets her ult. At levels 6, 11, and 16, she has 52, 57, and 62 AD. The ratios for her ult at those levels is (with the new buff to 75% AD per wave) 900%, 1050%, and 1200%. Therefore, the base damage on her ult is 468, 600, and 992 at those levels. After that, you can treat the scaling part of her ult to be 900%, 1050%, and 1200% of bonus AD. Looking at it that way, I think it's perfectly fair. Yes, it deals its damage over a longer duration, but its damage has not actually decreased in the first two seconds compared to Live MF's ult. Multiplying each of those figures by 2/3 to simulate a 2-second ult, they are: Level 6: 312 + 600% of bonus AD Level 11: 400 + 700% of bonus AD Level 16: 661 + 800% of bonus AD This is somewhat difficult to compare to Live MF since she has a stacking mechanic for ult damage, but we can try. Assuming your targets started with 0 Impure Shots stacks, this is the damage on Live MF ult: Level 6: 400 + 80% of bonus AD + 198% of total AD Level 11: 600 + 140% of bonus AD + 210% of total AD Level 16: 1000 + 200% of bonus AD + 216% of total AD I'll convert the total AD ratios to bonus AD and add the difference to the base damage (same way as I did with PBE MF): Level 6: 521 + 278% of bonus AD Level 11: 760 + 350% of bonus AD Level 16: 1201 + 416% of bonus AD So now it's easier to compare Live and PBE MF. PBE MF has far lower base damage but far higher scalings. Plugging these numbers into Excel, I've found that for both versions of the ult to do equal damage in 2 seconds, you need this much bonus AD at these levels: Level 6: 65 bonus AD (BF + Pickaxe) Level 11: 103 bonus AD (BT + Pickaxe) Level 16: 141 bonus AD (BT + Youmuu's) By the way, I realize Pickaxe doesn't build into Youmuu's. I'm just illustrating with an example of the items you need to break even. As I've stated in my own feedback post (not addressed to you), the level 6 ult may be a bit weak compared to Live MF simply because it's quite difficult to get 65 AD by level 6. However, the other break-even points are quite easy to reach with an AD-heavy build. If you're not running an AD-heavy build, you've made the decision to improve her autos instead - that's fine. Point is, it's not difficult to break even with Live MF ult even at 2 seconds. If you get more AD at the points I've listed, then you're actually doing more damage than Live MF's ult within 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, the remaining 1 second is an opportunity for you to get more AoE damage than Live MF can. You don't have to channel for the rest of the time if you don't want to. Another benefit that I haven't mentioned is that Live MF's ult has more damage loaded on the end of that channel due to the stacking mechanic; it is more punishing for Live MF to cancel her ult than it is for PBE MF. If you trust my match, here's the damage for a one-second ult channel for Live vs PBE at the given levels: Level 6 Live: 260 + 100% of bonus AD PBE: 156 + 300% of bonus AD Break-even: 52 bonus AD Level 11 Live: 380 + 130% of bonus AD PBE:200 + 350% of bonus AD Break-even: 82 bonus AD Level 16 Live: 600 + 160% of bonus AD PBE: 330 + 400% of bonus AD Break-even: 113 bonus AD As you can see, the break-evens got lower, which means PBE ult exceeds Live ult's damage earlier if both ults are only channeled for 1 second. I'll continue in another reply since this post has almost hit the word limit.
: How is stacking damage with an AS steroid not good for 1v1? Especially when you take into consideration that it also used to have grievous wounds once upon a time? MF's Dueling was great. I don't know what game you were playing then. Even without Grievous wounds, how was _**stacking damage per hit**_ not a good 1v1 tool? Her E was very useful in 1v1's as it let her make up for her poor mobility by being her only real utility by slowing down he target. Calling it useless is just untrue. Channeling AOE useless in 1v1? Um hello? That is rather binary logic. Just because something is optimal in situation X does not make it useless in situation Y. Because of the stacking damage of W that Ult also applied, Ulti was very good in 1v1 situations. Now, was MF the best marksman in 1v1 situation? No. But realistically, no markman excluding maybe Quinn was that great at 1v1 unless they were fed to begin with. Not Even Vayne. Likewise, Vayne is also very good in teamfights, despite having good 1v1. The wotld isn';t black and white like that and neither is this game. LIke I said before, MF in her current state on PBE is busted. She isn't fulfilling the niche or playstyle they are trying to achieve with her. "_**Miss Fortune is not a 1v1 specialist. She specializes in hit-and-run tactic and teamfights. If you want a 1v1 champion, don't pick MF.**_" Yes, the immobile Marksman specializes in Hit and run tactics. This makes so much sense. Right now, MF's teamfight is relegated to Pressing R and calling it a day. She either kills everyone or doesn't. MF is incredibly lopsides at the moment, being very feast of famine. Her play pattern isn't interesting to play against a either. This isn't a question of whether or not she is good. It is a question of whether or not she is working. Like i said before, for LoveTap to be worth using in its current state, Riot had to suck power from everything else and shove it into Love Tap. This makes it so she can't actually do her job. Love tap on most situations in glorified initial Burst. What Riot wants to do with it is have a situation where you are constantly switching between targets. That just doesn't happen unless the enemy ignores you, which as a priority threat, they wouldn't or shouldn't be. This leaves her only real contribution to fights being her R. "_**That's probably because you're all playing her like a 1v1 champion and this is exactly what she is not. To drive this point further, playing MF like a 1v1 marskman is like playing Vayne AP. See how that works out for you.**_" I'm getting rather tired or your posturing and condescending statements. No, I can assure you I haven't been. I am able to adapt to new play styles as I have with Graves, Corki and many champions who have had to due to the itemization changes such as Talon. I would prefer if you used an argument that wasn't just "You are wrong". and actually hear what has been said over the course of the discussion out and address the points rather than push the "call them idiots" button. You yourself have basically admitted to not using LoveTap outside of a glorified Sheen Proc on initial hit for Burst, which isn't what Riot was going for, seeing as her W is supposed to extend her Attack speed duration for LoveTapping. Ideally, what they want of for MF to be switching targets in teamfights to reproc LoveTap, but this simply doesn't happen enough to make LoveTap rewarding outside of simply making it deal so much damage that it has an impact the one time you use it, and making MF broken if you every actually do get the chance to reproc it constantly. Lets just look at the inate problem with its current design from a play pattern stand point. They lowered MF's bases to make LoveTap more centeral to her Kit. LoveTap scaled with total AD at later levels. What this does is essentially make LoveTap do more damage than her Autos In Fact, so much that it is stupid in some situations. In a situation where this would be most optimal. (Mf is shooting 2 targets), The idea is to make up for the target priority split by making her do and have so much more damage and more DPS while doing. This creates the problem where she can only ever be either overtuned or undertuned. For this to be effective, she has to be able to in that situation, which in any realistic instance isn't gonna be the case as she will simply get focus fired by both parties. Even then, all the enemy has to do is have one enemy simply leave, as MF is immobile and can't afford to chase one opponant then go back to the initial one just to keep it up. Do you see the feast or famine issue here? Draven for example, is rewarded purely for his ability to catch axes. This leaves what is obviously a tricky play pattern almost completely in the hands of the player using it. (there are means to get hit to drop his axes but he still does enough damage without em. and has enough utility and mobility to defend and escape in a bad situation. He also isn't punished for ever trying to kite.) This is again all on top of it essentially changing MF instead of enhancing her identity. Again, I like the idea but I genuinely think it needs to be retooled. She is lopsided now where she is dumb in lane with half her hit, and only good for her Ulti the other half of the game.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=gzIheUE2,comment-id=005e,timestamp=2015-11-06T13:22:03.394+0000) > > This isn't a question of whether or not she is good. It is a question of whether or not she is working. > Like i said before, for LoveTap to be worth using in its current state, Riot had to suck power from everything else and shove it into Love Tap. This makes it so she can't actually do her job. > Highly disagree with this point. Riot hasn't actually sucked that much power from her kit. If anything, there has been a huge power increase in her kit. Q is the same (better in lane with Love Tap). W is an overall better steroid (ignoring the stacking passive for now, since that's directly comparable to Love Tap). E's range increase is huge. Ult's damage is hugely superior to Live. The only two things that have been weakened are her base AD and the removal of Impure Shots's stacking passive. The base AD is to slightly offset Love Tap's power. Whether or not Impure Shots was better than Love Tap is now after that offset is considered is debatable since it's situationally better and situationally worse, but let's say for argument's sake that Impure Shots was better. Her role wasn't really well-defined before, so I don't think you can say this makes it so she can't do her job - she never really had a distinct job before. If anything, Love Tap now lets her do a job that has been defined for her. I doubt you believe me at this point, but hear me out. > Love tap on most situations in glorified initial Burst. What Riot wants to do with it is have a situation where you are constantly switching between targets. That just doesn't happen unless the enemy ignores you, which as a priority threat, they wouldn't or shouldn't be. This leaves her only real contribution to fights being her R. Yes, in most situations it's used for initial burst. If they focus you, it's difficult to make use of it. Maybe you can occasionally reset it with Q on your focus target and get some more sustained damage on them. Love Tap is not a universally useful passive, however. If you look at it as a sort of snowball passive in that it's most useful when you're a) ahead enough to the burst matters against most of their team or b) your team is protecting you sufficiently and so you're not being threatened that much, Love Tap allows you to snowball extremely hard. Its power along with new W's steroid is insane. If you can get it off, your sustained damage against multiple targets simply can't be matched. In that sense, it's a high-risk, high-reward passive not unlike someone like Darius. He gets kited in most scenarios, sure. You don't usually get a pentakill with his ult. However, if he gets ahead even slightly and you forget to kite him around for a second, then he becomes this huge unkillable tank that can run through your entire team. As a side note, Love Tap also makes Q's bounce remain useful during teamfights. I've thought for a long time that Live MF's Q was only good for what was effectively an autoattack reset in teamfights (i.e. burst the main target faster), but having Love Tap proc on the bounce target makes it an incredibly threatening tool for unexpected damage if positioned correctly. I've had it do roughly 700 damage on a normal bounce from a tank to a squishy target. Besides, MF contributes way more than just an ult during teamfights. She still has the sustained damage of an ADC, though it might be lower than average (though the average has changed a lot in preseason) if you don't use Love Tap. She can chase extremely well between Strut and her new E. She can burst a single target. Saying that her ult is the only useful thing she provides is a bit of an exaggeration. > You yourself have basically admitted to not using LoveTap outside of a glorified Sheen Proc on initial hit for Burst, which isn't what Riot was going for, seeing as her W is supposed to extend her Attack speed duration for LoveTapping. The "glorified Sheen Proc" is the average use case scenario, I think. It's still useful, just not to the extent that it's designed around. Is that a problem? I don't really think so, seeing as I also don't think that the passive is meant to always be used to its fullest extent; its full power is incredibly high because they haven't capped its maximum use case aside from the attackspeed cap (you can proc Love Tap on literally every auto if given the chance). Even if I only make use of it once or twice in a teamfight I'm pretty satisfied with what I get out of it. > They lowered MF's bases to make LoveTap more centeral to her Kit. LoveTap scaled with total AD at later levels. > What this does is essentially make LoveTap do more damage than her Autos In Fact, so much that it is stupid in some situations. Small correction: Love Tap can never do more damage than her autos. It maxes out at 100% of total AD and cannot crit and does not apply on-hit effects again. Therefore, it always does equal or less damage than one autoattack. But yes, they did try to make Love Tap more central to her kit. > Do you see the feast or famine issue here? I see what you're getting at, but her famine state is not actually that bad because Love Tap is by no means a terrible passive even in the worst case. She can still contribute even if she can't ult and if she can't get off multi-champ Love Tap procs. She still has a long-range slow, good burst, and average DPS. It might be a bit worse than Live MF (debatable since Live MF has to be safe enough to get multiple Impure Shots stacks on her target to do much damage, which you could argue is also extremely difficult against divers or other high damage champions), but it's really not that terrible. > She is lopsided now where she is dumb in lane with half her hit, and only good for her Ulti the other half of the game. I've addressed some of this elsewhere in my post (Love Tap and Q remain useful even later on; E remains useful as a catch tool and setup for ult; W is still useful later on because it's a huge steroid), but suffice to say I disagree wholeheartedly and think that her entire kit is useful for the entire game. It might seem this way because of how silly her ult is on PBE right now (which means you can get away with just using your ult if you position it well because of how much damage it does), but just because her ult has gotten better doesn't mean everything else has gotten objectively worse.
: I don't understand what's the problem here. **"This isn't about dueling, it's about focusing high priority targets in a teamfight."** If a teamfight breaks out, you just ult and don't worry about who to focus. You're hitting all 5 people at the same time. MF was never a 1v1 champion. Just look at her kit: **Q** - poke tool, better through a dying target. **Questionable use in a 1v1.** **W** - steroid 20-60% AS. Pretty mediocre. Her Impure Shots were needed to be stacked first, again, making this insanely time consuming in a 1v1 where you specifically want to straight out murder people as fast as you can. **AS good, stacking mechanic not in a 1v1.** **E** - AP scaling AoE slow. For lockdowns or escapes only. **Useless in a 1v1.** **R** - Channeling AoE ability. **Useless in a 1v1.** Out of 4 skills in a 1v1 scenario, only one is usable, one questionable and passive negated. How does MF compare to someone who is a 1v1 specialist, like Vayne, Jinx or Lucian for example? Miss Fortune's forte is full blown teamfights where she can blanket the enemy team with bullets, basically run-and-gun marskman (hit-and-run tactic). If you always wanted a 1v1 champion that is a marskman, you would have never picked Miss Fortune in the first place. You're making a complaint that goes against what Miss Fortune stands for and this is exactly why Riot is giving each marskman a unique role in the team. If all marskmen would do the same things (a 1v1), then the best marskman would be the one with the best stats. In this case, what's the point of other 19 marksmen if none of them have a unique identity or a different way to contribute to the team? This kit right now - it exactly delivers on Miss Fortune's fantasy of an AoE marskman. You are heavily rewarded for playing her this way because all her stats were significantly buffed and her Love Tap requires of you to just get used to switching targets instead of hammering down one. And this isn't like Yasuo's Sweeping Blade mechanic that has a cooldown between casts on the same target. If you want to maximize the DPS, just switch between 2 targets minimum. With her insane W steroid and her refreshing W mechanic, you will absolutely demolish 2 people at the same time without the loss of DPS, like everyone claims. I've played her 5 games already and i've not been able to run into the low damage problem like everyone else's been having. That's probably because you're all playing her like a 1v1 champion and this is exactly what she is not. To drive this point further, playing MF like a 1v1 marskman is like playing Vayne AP. See how that works out for you. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
On Live, Miss Fortune is actually an excellent 1v1 champion. I'm not saying that this is what she needs to be, but there is no doubt she is one of the best 1v1 ADCs in the game on Live. Yes, it's true that most of her skills don't actually help her in 1v1s. However, her Q and W are so incredibly powerful for burst and sustained damage that she simply overpowers most other champions in 1v1s (not melee bruisers, but not many ADs can beat those). She's certainly a better duelist than Jinx (whose burst damage in a 1v1 scenario is sorely lacking) and situationally better than Vayne (again, somewhat lacking in burst) and Lucian (low sustained damage). However, I also haven't been running into the low damage problem. She's shifted some power from being strong against tanks and squishies in 1v1s to being stupidly strong against squishies and decent to slightly below-average against tanks. Overall, she can still duel many of the champions that she could before, and most of them she can duel better than before. Regardless of whether this is her fantasy, this is something that many people enjoyed about her (myself included), and I don't think it's been hurt unduly.
: Miss Fortune PBE Feedback Thread
After playing her a bit more, I have a few more comments to make. Sometimes Love Tap CSing is a bit weird; the on-hit seems to be calculated a splitsecond separately from the autoattack itself, which has caused me to miss some CS when the minion dies right as the other half is being added on (dunno if Love Tap is first or the AD portion). Not sure if this is an actual problem or my imagination. Other than that, Love Tap working on structures feels great. Having it work with lifesteal is great too. Something I didn't mention last time is that Love Tap makes her lategame pushing ability much better since you can oneshot casters with enough AD. New W also helps with pushing speed without using much mana. Q is great; might be a little too strong with how strong Love Tap is. I've been chunking people for half their health after BF with Q+auto instead of a third like on Live. If I get ahead, a killbounce can do more than half of someone's health on its own. 2.5 of AD (when Love Tap is maxed) + 240 base damage will do that to a person. It's pretty scary. W steroid feels fine now that I've gotten used to it. Increased movespeed on Strut is also nice. Haven't really noticed the steroid duration buff in fights, but it hasn't fallen off randomly nearly as much when I'm CSing with it early, so there's that at least. E range buff is really great. It's much more useful for making catches and approximately the same for escaping/vision/whatever else. It also works significantly better with her ult's range. If anything is problematic, I think it'd be her mid-lategame ult. It does so much damage right now. I've been running an AD-heavy ult-centric build and I've been killing squishy targets with ult from 100-0 in around 1.5 seconds. I don't know how you would solve this while still making it feel impactful, but... that's the direction she's been pushed toward for now, and I don't know if it can be balanced. If it only does damage, it either does far too much to squishies and a fair amount to tanks, or it does fair damage against squishies and not enough against tanks. Perhaps offer it bonus armor penetration and lower its raw damage? Don't get me wrong, I really like how it feels when I'm playing as MF, but I can't imagine other players feel good about getting melted 100-0 at 1000 range (where I can hit them with E) and not being able to do much about it other than try to CC me in the one second before they die. Opposing ADCs have it the worst: I feel that they don't even have a chance of fighting me when my ult is up because they literally cannot kill me before my ult kills them; half the time they can't even reach me before it kills them. It's possible to argue that it's the opposing team's job to stop me from ulting, but the opposing team is not always grouped. Even then, since the ult does so much damage, they may still fail to react fast enough to save whoever's in my range. I've even been melting through tanks, though I can't 100-0 kill them (more like 70%). An AD-heavy build doesn't even sacrifice that much compared to a traditional DPS build; you lose some DPS, but the burst is still around the same and your ult becomes far stronger. Against tanks, it still might be a bit too strong but overall I think it's far more fair than the situation with squishies. I only do 70% over the 3 seconds, so they have a chance to do something to me or my team. If I get stopped prematurely, then I probably haven't even gotten them to half. Even if I get stopped vs squishies, they're probably already dead or crippled beyond being able to contribute. Basically, aside from Love Tap damage being a little weird for CSing, I greatly enjoy playing the updated MF. I just think her ult is way overtuned and probably can't be balanced if it only does damage without having some other tuning levers added to it. A nice side effect of her ult being strong is that now I can see myself playing her as an AD mid: having a strong source of AoE damage that can double as fantastic siege ability after considering other preseason changes (CDR in Essence Reaver, E outside of tower range, ult being able to outright kill targets), pretty decent matchups with how ridiculous Q damage is, and being significantly more level-reliant (since ult is so much more important; also Love Tap scaling) means it makes sense to put her in a solo lane.
: I mean. I understand ur thoughts and concerns. But less ad at lvl 18 than lvl Cho? I find that a little bit harsh.
Everything has to be taken in context. This point is completely irrelevant in isolation.
: Reaching Critical Mass with Yasuo and Tryndamere
Making it only proc on champions is a good way to handle it, I think. This kills all of the edge cases in melee carries (Pantheon, Tryndamere, and Yasuo) and reduces the power level to something more reasonable for other champions that build crit.
: Hello, I'm back with more feedback. **For starters, I wanna give a big thank you to Statikk for taking the time to hear our whining out and take it to heart.** I know it can't be easy, so I would like to make sure he is aware that it is at the very least appreciated. Next however is I wanna give a proper assessment of LoveTap and its philosophy. First, it being "gimmicky". While I will not dare to say it isn't gimmicky, what I do wanna say is that it being gimmicky**_isn't_** the issue. Draven's Spinning Axe's are beyond gimmicky but you'd be damned to hear people complain about him being that way. Grave's rework and Corki's changes are the most gimmicky thing since Zac, and yet people are praising it left and right and the overall reception has been mostly positive. The problem is that said gimmick in it's current state feels more like an experiment that Riot wants to try and thought Miss Fortune was the perfect guinea pig for it, as opposed to a change to make her identity more pronounced and distinct. In the past, reworks to champions have also radically changed them, (see: Soraka) but those still fit the base idea of the champion. If this was per se, used on a new champion all together, I will guarantee that the backlash wouldn't be nearly as hard. If you at Riot truly insist on this concept though for MF, it needs to be adjusted to emphasize and make MF's core identity and play pattern more pronounced, rather than override it. The last changes I couldn't help but feel were a _"please use LoveTap and Love it please! We really want you to love it"_ rather than an actual attempt at addressing peoples concerns. **In this next section, I am going to list what I have come to find are the primary reasons why people are discouraged with Love Tap and its implementation in MF's Kit at the moment.** To begin, LoveTap feels more like a punishment rather than a tool. From my understanding, MF's base AD and growth was lowered to promote the use of Love Tap. This was done to make Love Tap feel more like an innate part of her Auto attack and attack pattern. This creates multiple problems. -First, it punishes, or perhaps making the player feel punished for ever attacking the same target. I understand that it would be silly and even ridiculous to put an icon on every unit besides MF's last target, but every time the player attacks the target, they are prompted with an indicator that basically tells em (Don't hit this person or you will tickle). Instead of feeling like you do more damage for changing target, you feel like you are doing _less_ damage if you **don't**. (I understand it is a different case in the late game, I will elaborate later on) This is problematic in so many ways but the most apparent one is it discourages the player from attacking priority targets. The message it sends the player every time they hit someone is (don't hit them) and (go find someone or something else to hit) which is discouraging, especially to any former MF player who was previously under the play pattern of (hit as much and as many people as possible). As a passive ability that is in the players kit, (I am going to paraphrase something one of the Riot members said) _"The player shouldn't feel like they are playing against the game, but against their opponent"_, and as it is now, the player is fighting more with MF's passive than the enemy. Another problem is that it makes MF way to unbalanced and niche. In a theoretical scenario where she could constantly and optimally hit a different target and auto attack at her 120% attack speed without being interrupted, the damage is ridiculous, and at later points in the game, the single initial hit from LoveTap is unreasonably broken. This is "balanced" by the fact that these situations exist next to never or for very short and sporadic windows. _I guess what I am trying to say is MF (outside her Ulti, I guess) essentially has power placed in places where it isn't helpful._ The amount of initial impact damage LoveTap can do at late points in the game in busted and is only balanced by the fact that her actual auto damage and DPS after that initial hit is pathetic. And in an optimal situation the MF SHOULD be striving to achieve where she can constantly proc LoveTaps to infinitely refresh W's attack speed, the damage output is stupid OP. Just like LoveTaps existence lead to her overall AD and growths being lowered, W's attack speed steroid was boosted as as well as given an extending effect to help encourage the use of LoveTap. To compensate, the duration was cut. I can't help but feel this is hear simply to justify LoveTaps presence in her kit at all, but I digress. This again continues with what I was saying about her having power in the wrong places. Essentially, the ability's overall effectiveness was reduced to justify the existence of Love Tap in it's current state, which I personally find rather lousy. The theoretical damage she could do with this is off the charts, but that situation doesn't realistically happen. For MF to have her W last as long as it did before, she has to be Love Tapping for 10 strait seconds (or 5 after the initial 5 seconds pass), which is simply unrealistic in an actual teamfight, regardless of if she actually is given the opportunity to do so, _as the opponents would actually die before then_. It's good for pushing waves, but her old W did so just fine while being more consistent and without the risk of messing up last hits. Her E and Q are effectively the same, though the extended range on E is appreciated, and I find LoveTaps interaction with Q completely underwhelming and non-interactive. Q'd use in lane is completely the same as before, except now it does some more damage. Damage that i find is unnecessary as the bonus hit from the bounce was already substantial, and the overall damage feels the same as it as before her AD even took a hit in the first place. Whats more is (now that LoveTap now applies to crits, after the lifesteal change) [Is this intended?], the interaction with Q feels like a waste as an auto would have done a better job. And now for her Ult. Its a similar situation. The total damage her Ult can do is huge, but it is distributed in a way that makes it so that in a real optimal situation, the opponents would probably be dead before they actually got hit by the entire Ulti, and is essentially balanced by the fact that they pretty much won't get ht by the whole hing most of the time, I feel. Overall, this leads to a mechanic that feels invasive rather than engaging, as it takes power away from the places that make MF feel impactful (her Ultimate at later levels being the exception) and puts it into places where they essentially don't matter or don't compliments MF's actual strengths and feel. In contrast, Caitlyn was given bonus range on head shot (further cementing her identity as a sniper) and now procs head shot on trapped and netted enemies, which gives them a direct and interesting interaction with her kit that is not only innately satisfying, but meshes perfectly with her identity as a champion. To compensate this, power was taken out from her W and E (spells of which the damage was negligible to begin with) and her Q was made more narrow, but given more range (further accentuating her characteristics). This leads to a rework that makes Caitlyn feel like her old PS3 was replaces with a fancy new PS4 for Christmas by Rito Claus. In contrast, the MF changes make it feel like your Nintendo 64 was taken away, and you were given a Checkers Board instead. Checkers is fine and all, but I wanna play Nintendo, not Checkers. I can dig playing Checkers, but not if it means I can't play Nintendo anymore. (cont.)
Gonna agree with you in that right now, Love Tap feels more like it punishes you for attacking the same target as opposed to rewarding you for attacking different targets. I think this is primarily because of the AD nerf (you do less sustained than other ADs) and lack of cooldown (resulting in extremely high optimal damage scenarios when you switch targets constantly; you feel like you're not doing as much as you could be if you don't switch targets all the time). The lack of duration cap on W also contributes to this (though I have to correct you: you only have to proc Love Tap twice on champions to reach old W's duration, so it's not nearly as bad as you've stated). The reasonable solution sounds like to impose some sort of cap on her Love Tap damage (and W, since that's related to how often you use Love Tap). Add an internal cooldown per target, add a duration cap (I feel this is less necessary), lower Love Tap damage and increase base AD back to normal, etc.. ~~I think that adding an internal cooldown, lowering early level damage, and reverting AD nerfs is probably the way to go; lowering the damage would lessen the feeling of impactfulness that Love Tap has in the late game.~~ So they've said that they want to try a more extreme version of Love Tap first, and I think that's reasonable. If it ends up going wrong they'll probably consider changes like this even without us telling them.
: Hello fellow League players! I've got some questions on some of the new thing about MFs' kit as well as a discussion point. I haven't gotten to play her much so much of my thought is based on observation from spectated games. I'm generally a loser 1vbot custom player on the PBE. I haven't played much of the game recently so take what I say with a grain of salt? Miss Fortune has been my favorite champion so I want to join the discussion. I've been playing her since late season two so I've been with her for awhile. I'll **bold** the questions for easy skimming. On to the discussion! **1.) TL;DR: Does the bonus damage on Q apply to spell damage only or also to on-hit damage?** With the bonus damage on a kill for her Q being changed again, there was something I was curious about. Does the bonus damage amplify her spell damage alone or will it also affect the damage from on-hits as well? I ask due to her passive presumably being on-hit itself. My money is on spell damage only. A common complaint with MF is her Q doesn't scale into lategame. People feel using it simply decreases her DPS and rather would simply auto instead. Still, if Q bonus were the case it amps all damage, it would be extremely rare to see in a late game scenario. :( **2.) Just a simple question. Does her passive have an internal cooldown at all between switching targets?** People have commonly called her passive clunky or odd to use. What I think they mean is it doesn't feel intuitive. In the case of AA>Q>AA, what's expected is two procs due to the second Q bullet hit a new target for her passive. However, that doesn't happen and they get one instance. My perception is the passive is instant to any new target damage. **3.) Does the Love Tap "Debuff" ever go away?** How long does it take? I think a lot of people would feel better if it was a short duration (ex: 3 seconds). **4.) Let's discuss Base Attack Damage and growth!** I definitely understand the nerfs to her base damage, the growths I don't particularly agree with. Every other marksman's Base damage went up by 5 on average to compensate the loss in the masteries. Miss fortune went down by 3.54 instead to compensate for her new passive. While adjusting her Base values for new kit ideations is another topic altogether, my concern is how it affects her as a sustained damage carry. Level 1 and two fights get harder for her now since she has on average eight less damage than the opposing marksman than before. The gap only grows from there. As someone pointed out, she has less base AD at level 18 than Maokai does at level 1. Infact the lowest base AD a level 18 champion has is Thresh at 85.1 (next three are Kindred 86.4, Lulu 90.6, and Fiddlesticks 93). That's a huge difference in AD between the lowest and current MF. Now with there being less AD on items in general, it'll be harder for her to cover that gap. And just forget Trinity Force completely. It used to be very viable, now she's the worse user of it, period. The new passive keeps your goals in line, keeping her simple. She'll remain auto attack focused while also finding the timings for her Ultimate. Keeping her simple with her Base values changed worries the idea that she'll feel satisfying being auto attack reliant. She'll shoot faster, that's awesome, but hit less hard past her burst. I think that's what the consensus from the testers are so far. Effectively, you've changed her from a increasing sustained damage carry with to an upfront burst > a lot less sustained damage. It's arguable that she even has much more burst right now. Impure shots was a lot of hidden power and really not satisfying power for me personally. It had to change if MF wanted to evolve. Love tap is a step in the right direction in my eyes! A lot of people feel that way. Right now it's a one and done passive. One proc and that's it. A lot of team fight cases, you can only hit one target and kill them before switching to a new one. Double up tends to be hard to find a second bounce in fights. Mf as an auto attacker feels weak. Most of her power seems to be back into her ult again. 8.4% total AD for the full duration for a level 1 ult is pretty rough. For comparison, her old ult a level 1 did 540 + 3.6% AD. the difference being new ult is 3 seconds, so in two seconds the new ult would do 5.6% AD. It's not quite was it was but better than it is on live for sure. That was a bit lengthy but that's my thoughts on her current iteration. She's my favorite champion so I've thought a lot about her game play :D If I had to change anything, revert the Base damage nerfs, slightly increase growth, add a duration to the Love tap mark. I'd have to play her more to feel like if she's anything else. I compare her closest to Lucian (on hit damage passive, Q poke). His kit is more consistent but he's also a duelist. That is how I like MF to be, a duelist. Thanks for reading!
1. The 150% damage on bounce does not affect on-hit damage. It'll affect the spell ratios and base damage. Love Tap doesn't get boosted on a killbounce. 2. No internal cooldown on Love Tap. 3. The Love Tap marker never goes away until you hit another target. The solution you've offered might actually be good for something like neutral objectives, since she's lost a huge amount of threat in that department (takes neutrals extremely slowly compared to other ADs), though I think it'd take away a lot of Love Tap's weaknesses if implement against other targets. A Love Tap proc every 3 seconds is much closer to Impure Shots damage on a single target with additional benefits like increased burst and lifesteal. 4. The base AD nerf is to balance out Love Tap; without it, Love Tap would be completely broken in lane (think bleed passive Draven broken). Yes, this makes her a crappy user of Triforce, but she's pretty much always been a subpar user of it at best. Viable, yes; good, no. Her burst is much better now than before and yes, her sustained damage has gone down fairly significantly as a result. I think this overall makes her better vs squishy targets (her damage is more than high enough to burst these guys down rapidly) while being worse against tanks; pretty self-evident if you think about it. It's definitely a power shift and does change her feel. I'm personally ok with this, though others may feel differently. I don't think they can revert the base AD nerfs without nerfing Love Tap, and that'd reduce the impact that it has. MF is still a fantastic duelist (arguably better than before because of how high her burst has gotten), so if that's what you're worried about I wouldn't be.
: Hey guys, there's been a lot of awesome feedback in the thread. So much that I don't have the capability of responding to you guys individually in this case So instead, I want to ask some generalized questions that will help guide us forward (try to keep answers brief and concise): **1. What is your assessment of her general power level on PBE? Does she feel overall strong or weak? 2. What is your assessment of her power level in lane? 3. Is last hitting minions difficult? 4. What is your assessment of her power level in late game? 5. What is your assessment of Bullet Time's power level at level 6? At Level 16? 6. Does Love Tap feel effective and rewarding when it can be utilized (note that the adjustments made to Love Tap on Friday have not hit PBE)?**
To answer your questions: 1. As a MF main on live, I feel that if anything she's getting on the side of being overtuned on PBE. In most situations, Love Tap does more damage than Impure Shots does on Live. The value of having the damage be front-loaded can't be understated, either. Her ultimate now has team-wipe potential, and although it's may seem more difficult to get a good ult off now than before due to the increased duration, even a 2-second ult will outdamage her Live version. Also, the reward for a good ult is significantly higher than Live; if you're specifically looking just to ult, you can position in a much safer way and not even engage in the fray otherwise. This arguably gives her a lot of safety that she does not have on Live. New W is almost strictly better than Live Impure Shots; assuming you hit a champion once, with the new buff that's been added the duration is 5 seconds vs 6 seconds on Live. The AS buff is double that of Live, so even if you never hit anyone (which will never happen) it has the same damage benefit over a shorter time window - again, frontloading her damage. Strut movespeed has been increased at later levels, which is nice to have but not game-changing. The Make It Rain range buff adds to her safety when she's looking for an ult; now E actually complements her ult to the fullest. This particular change I very much enjoy since it gives a feeling of kit cohesion. 2. She's gotten worse at long engages but significantly better at short (1 auto + Q) trades. Her Q also does more damage, assuming you proc Love Tap. Pushing power has arguably increased, especially with new Strut active. Overall not too different, though I think she's also better at 6 because of her increased ult damage and E range; you can engage more easily now and can potentially secure a double with just ult + your support's abilities. It seems like she won't be able to punish as many of her old matchups as hard as before due to lower kill potential, but many of those matchups will be changing with preseason changes so I won't comment too much on that. 3. Not particularly, though it does feel quite different. Love Tap's animation is quite significant and should maybe be tuned down slightly when it hits minions - it can be distracting. Her pushing pattern is a little strange (changing targets constantly to proc Love Tap), but overall I think that's just an adjustment people will have to make. 4. She has considerably more safety than Live due to the changes to her ult. Her damage is much more frontloaded, and while she loses some damage in sustained fights against a single target (usually vs tanks since other champions won't survive), the burst against squishier targets is a fairly good trade-off. Her late game on Live is situationally quite strong (high damage, low safety; can't deal with high-range damage threats or multiple divers well; excellent vs tanks, low range threats, and low-damage teams), but I feel that comparatively it's gotten worse because many of the reworked ADs can actually deal with her fairly well (Caitlyn, probably Graves if he can actually get close enough, Kog'Maw). I don't think it's a huge problem because of how strong MF's ult has gotten; it's more of a power shift. 5. Overall nerf to Bullet Time at level 6, I think. I'm assuming a BF Sword on Live vs BF + Long Sword on PBE at level 6. At 1 second into the ult, both versions of MF ult do around the same damage (assuming Live MF doesn't get any Impure Shots stacks beforehand). At two seconds in, Live MF ult has around a 200 damage advantage. At 3 seconds in (Live MF doesn't have this obviously), PBE MF has around a 100 damage advantage. Live MF can simply autoattack during this 1 extra second and probably get around a break-even. This nerf was probably intentional, but it does hurt MF's level 6 fairly significantly in terms of sheer burst output. At level 16, the damage between Live MF and PBE MF simply can't be compared. My full build on Live does around 1700 raw damage while PBE MF ult does around 5300 raw damage with a full build. Granted, there are differences in builds before and now, but the difference is huge. I'd take new MF ult lategame over Live any day, especially with the linear ult damage scaling with duration. 6. It's still a little strange in early game since the visual/sound doesn't match with my perception of how strong it should be, but later on in the game I think it feels great. W is a little difficult to use with Love Tap when pushing early game because you have to constantly switch targets manually to keep the attack speed, but the duration+ should help with that. It's worse early game because you have low starting AS, so if you make one mistake when switching targets you lose the buff. Lategame is more forgiving in that respect. The largest downside other than having to switch targets is much worse neutral objective control. MF's damage against Baron/Dragon used to be among the best; now it's probably the single worst out of any ADC when you also take her base AD nerfs into account. I'm not sure if much can be done about this in an elegant way, but suffice to say that this is a fairly large nerf. Switching targets is still a bit unintuitive and there are times when I don't know the optimal damage route (will it be faster to auto this squishy repeatedly or try to proc Love Tap with autos? Which option will kill the squishy faster?). I'm sure people can adjust to new damage figures, but I don't know if you have anything in mind to make this easier. I can't think of anything, so I'm thinking it's probably just an adjustment we'll have to make. She still completely craps on any squishy she can get into range of because of how much burst she has just from auto+Q+Firecannon+Shiv, so I'm glad she hasn't lost that. Side note: are Firecannon and Shiv supposed to synergize with each other so hard? Shiv lets Firecannon damage crit and Firecannon damage gets added to Shiv's waveclear. I've been pretty much clearing entire minion waves with just the proc and a crit. Overall, I'd look to tune down the Love Tap visual/sound effect on minions and/or make it scale with the damage it deals or MF's level so it gets more obvious when Love Tap itself actually gets stronger. Her level 6 is hurt fairly significantly, but I think that's a fair trade-off for a better late-game. With the increased importance of Q in the late game due to Love Tap and easily accessible CDR in Essence Reaver, would it be possible to make the cast speed scale with attack speed? This has also been a factor that's made optimal DPS unclear at times: when does the cast time of Q make it more worth to just keep autoing as opposed to casting Q? This would be a fairly significant buff, though.
: HUD Suggestions
Strong suggestions overall. I especially agree with the placement of CS, KDA, and game time. Top right corner is much easier to find in an instant than 1/5 of the way up from the bottom right corner.
: I can confirm all, also, you cant rearrange items in inventory. As a support with several actives I always reserve specific spots for sightstone and what not causing me to mess up things constantly when i cant change them
: By the way dude, you can see your ping by hovering over the green bars! I can also confirm all of this, + what the guy below me said.
While this is true, it's much more useful for people with unstable ping to have it visible at all times. That way, you can confirm if you're lagging with a glance.
: [INTERFACE] Laundry list of graphical bugs, mainly to do with positioning
Confirming everything except 4; that one I haven't tried. Additionally: KDA and CS numbers for all players are missing in the scoreboard. The EXP wheel doesn't fill up correctly; the colour is displaced to the side.
: What... are... you... talking about... MF does NOT have anywhere NEAR as much DPS as Vayne. I'll even run some base numbers for that. MF gets a 70% AS steroid for 6s and her AA's do 6% of her AD as magic damage, stacking up. On a 2k health target since we've both agreed that MF is garbo against tanks (Which are kinda popular), we'll try to simulate damage without taking into affect any armor or any kind of MR. Make it REAL easy. MF at max level has 101 AD base. With a full build, she usually has a Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge, Blood Thirster, Last Whisper, and Berserkers. That means she has .656 base AD, with 51.2% scaling %, so that's 25% from boots, 50% from PD as well, totalling 126.2% so she has about 1.48 AS. With her W going, that's increased to 1.94 Attacks Per sec. Close enough to consider to be 2 attacks per second. Her total AD would be, max, 15 from runes, 14+5% bonus from masteries, 200 from items (80+80+40). That's about 240 AD in total bonus, so she has 341 AD with these items. We'll go ahead and do a guesstimate over 6s since her W is 6s. In the 6s of her W, she can use her Q once at the start, once at the 3s mark, once at the 6s mark. So 3x85% AD and 80 base, so 240 base plus 255% of her total AD which is 1109.5. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? That's over 6s, which sounds really scary. Her AA's are going to do 341 x (1+(.55x1.5)) 622 damage on average. Now, that's 2 per 1s, so that's 12 hits in total. That's about 7464 damage. Now her W's stacks. With a max R, she can total 7 stacks. So it's 6+12+18+24+30+36+(42x6)=126+42x6=378% of her AD. Totaling 1289ish. So, now to add it all together... 9862.5. Now off to Vayne! 109 base. Full build damage-wise is BotRK, PD, IE, LW, and Zerker's. That's 50%, 25%, and 40% from items. She has a base of .658 AS with a bonus of 68% at max level. In total, that's 183% AS, totaling 1.86 A/S. Nearly 2 attacks per second as well. Her AD from items is 80+25+40, totaling 145, much smaller than her counterpart. Same runes and masteries, so 14 and 5% from masteries, 15 from runes. So that's 182.7 bonus. Totaling 291.7 AD. Her Q has a 2s CD, so she'll be able to use it 4 times, to start, at 2s, at 4s, and at 6s. These are AA-resets, so when timed properly, do not affect her actual AA's. That means they'll do 200% in total of her AD that doesn't crit and 400% that can!. That's 583 that can't crit and 1166.8 that can. 1166.8 is 2129.41 after crit is averaged out into it, which totals about 2712. Now, her AA's are doing on average 532 damage. 12 attacks of that 532, which is 6384. Just with her AA's and Q, she can do 9096. I'm not even letting her use her ult. This is completely without her ult. This is just pressing Q, not including her w's proc, not including her R, not including the BotRK's damage. Just including her W against a champion like MF who has 2k health, her W will hit 16/3 (12 normal hits, 4 Q resets), which will be about 5 procs. That's 5x60=300 in base true damage and 5x8% of 2k health. That's 40% of 2k health, about 800 damage. That's 1100 extra damage, without BotRK or her ult. So she can do 10196 damage without pressing R or taking into consideration her BotRK. lol. So, as you were saying about MF doing more than Vayne? Now to move onto your other points.... Those abilities are a skill shot. Very large ones at that, letting them poke freely and kill champions without reaction, so you can't really say Kog and Ez would be bad, especially since it's very easy to land their skill shots. If they're stuck hitting a tank, they'll at least still do damage and be able to poke the tank down pretty easily in comparison to MF who's short ranged at 550, same as Vayne. Draven has 600 range and his axe's CD is 8s, axes having to be used every 6sish, plus his E is CC, his R does huge damage, 375 base with 110% of bonus AD per hit. By itself. It does reduce in damage based on units, which resets when it shifts back. We all know Draven's 1k AA's though all too well. Corki still has a but load of poke and his E can be used while kiting. If you stutter step or Orb Walk, you can use it quite while since it does damage and reduces armor every .5s rather than the 1s that it states. Not the first time an ability has lied to us about when it does damage. *Caugh*EveryDoTEver*Caugh* Lucian's spells tend to be on short CD's, especially since getting CDR on him in the form of a Ghostblade and CDR boots is common! His E is on an especially short CD since you're tossing off your passive like mad. So... yeeaah. What's MF got? Her original kit was mass AoE and good DPS the form of AA's and an AS steroid, plus her Q. Now she's got her Q and an AS steroid since her W and R are easily ignored by a Locket and its active. lol.
You can say what you like, but I literally have a spreadsheet comparing DPS for almost all ADCs in normal and optimal situations. Not going to bother uploading it anywhere, but I'm not pulling numbers out of nowhere. Feel free to disbelieve. Also, I didn't say more; I said competitive. Quoted from my post above: "MF's DPS is higher than almost all other ADCs. Her DPS is comparable to Draven's and Vayne's (the latter does more damage while ulting vs extremely tanky targets, but MF is competitive against squishies)" If you read the wording, I said that MF does more DPS than almost all (i.e. most) other ADCs. When I'm talking about Vayne, I say that Vayne does more damage against tanky targets when her ult is up; however, MF's damage is competitive with Vayne's against squishy targets. Your calculations are flawed in numerous assumptions (Q is not a perfect auto reset, resists do matter, etc.), but let's take your calcs to be perfect for the moment. In your numbers, Vayne only does 3% more damage than MF in that 6 second window. If that's not competitive, then I don't know what is.
: Why would you EVER use Mf's W solely for the GW application..? o.o You must be god awful at MF if you think she needs GW to win a duel. The only reason an ADC vs. ADC would need GW to win is if she's way behind or her opponent chose a BT over an IE, so you're doing more damage while they sustain, which is just silly since you could've gone with the BT as well and been doing the same thing... Your W is for a steroid, that's what it's used for. The E has been for a slow. It used to be waveclear, popularly as Waveclear prior to to her rework that screwed over her W and R. With how her W gives her strut though, she doesn't need the huge slow. It's simply not necessary. You can say 'Oh, it's ended as soon as it's up'. It isn't. Is it meant to be an escape? No. It's meant to stick to your target. If your target is running from you, which is why you're using your E to slow them, then they're not hitting you. If you're trying to chase some one through minions, then yeah, it won't be too useful. It's not meant to be useful in that case and most immobile ADC's can't chase through minions. You won't see a Varus chasing through them and a Kog backs off as soon as you leave range since they KNOW they can't catch you, but they KNOW you won't be coming back. She is a 550 range, so she doesn't have that short of range. In a team fight, her strut is wonderful for repositioning unless you have people on you, in which case just like ANY other immobile ADC (Varus, Kog, Twitch, and Sivir) you get destroyed. It's MUCH better than Grievous Wounds. Much, much, much better. MF also feels so much weaker than other ADC's because she's got Hybrid damage, as I mentioned. The only other champions now (Since Trist got reworked properly) to have a lot of their damage shoved into being magic damage is Kog'Maw, Ezreal, and Corki. Corki has lots of ranged poke and burst with a passive that makes his AA's do 10% of his AD as TRUE damage, which is a lot. Ezreal has a long range Q for poke, a very reliable escape, a passive AS boost, and his R is much easier to land for lots of damage compared to MF's R that's too easily escaped and does very little damage late game unless multiple waves hit because of its reliance on the W passive. Now we have Kog'Maw, the Hyper Carry with over 700 range with his W pressed, huge ranged poke ability with his R, an AoE slow that lasts for a while, and a long range skill shot Q that not only gives passive AS, but also reduces the armor and MAGIC RESIST of his targets, allowing his entire kit to do damage regardless. MF has nothing to make her hybrid damage worth it. Her Q isn't a skill shot, her range is very low outside of her R, and she has no huge steroid. Kog has three steroids, his Q's passive and active plus his W. Corki has his passive and very low CD's. Ezreal has low CD's, passive AS, huge AoE ult that has an AD scaling that does BURST rather than DPS, plus an AS booster for his teammates. What's MF got? Her W steroid and her Q that does 80% of her AD on the first hit and a quicker return to lane? She's not strong because she can't compare. Hybrid damage is horrible late game. Even if she gets ahead early and mid, if the game gets to late where one person has a Locket and the enemy tanks have even one MR item, she'll have no one-ups that other ADC's have. Draven's Q gives him more damage, Trist's Q is a MUCH larger steroid than MF's W, Kog's Q passive is 30% AS plus 28% Armor and MR reduction, Ashe's Q makes her AA's do 35% more and gives a 40% AS steroid, Lucian has non-stop 50% AA damage boost if he works his AA's in between his abilities, Vayne's Q gives 50% bonus damage AND is on a 2s CD on top of her R's 70 AD boost, Corki shreds armor and does 10% of his AD as True Damage, Ez gets up to 50% free AS and an incredibly low CD Q that does 110% plus another 160ish damage on top of that.... I can keep going. Every ADC has steroids that are BETTER than her's while she's still getting boned by having half her damage as Magic.
You're really not giving MF enough credit. I'm not saying that she's better than other ADCs, but her steroids are really not her problem. Regardless of the fact that her W stacks do magic damage (one might even say despite that fact), MF's DPS is higher than almost all other ADCs. Her DPS is comparable to Draven's and Vayne's (the latter does more damage while ulting vs extremely tanky targets, but MF is competitive against squishies) because MF actually has three steroids, all of which are about as reliable as it gets. I will define steroids as anything in a champion's kit that scales heavily off an ADC's build (AD, AS, crit, pen) while increasing DPS by a substantial amount. Her two most obvious steroids are on her W. The W stacks are one steroid, while the AS buff is another. Despite the W being magic damage, the values are high enough that it's still noticeable vs tankier targets while being extremely strong against squishies. Additionally, it is not her only steroid, and MF still does primarily physical damage (according to champion.gg, she does only 22% magic damage). The other champions in your comparison (Ezreal, Corki, and Kog) do 27%, 47%, and 44% magic damage, respectively. If anything, they have more problems with dealing hybrid damage than MF does. Especially Corki and Ezreal, since neither has a way to increase their magic damage through their kits. The W attack speed active is actually fairly powerful, too. 70% for 6 seconds on a 12 second cooldown is fantastic. You compare it to Tristana, but you forget that Tristana gets 25% attack speed at level 18 from leveling up vs MF's 51%. Therefore, at endgame Trist's total attack speed bonus (ignoring items) is 125%, while MF gets 121%. MF's W active also gets much better uptime with 50% vs Tristana's 25% (which can be reduced, but will never be better than MF's W uptime even if you fully use two Explosive Shots). The last steroid is MF's Q. The other ADCs that have a super low cooldown spell with high AD scaling are Ezreal on his Q, Ashe with Volley (longer CD and less damage), and arguably Lucian with his Q (much longer CD). Having a spell that can consistently be woven between autos is a big deal. It's not a traditional steroid, but it's part of why MF's DPS is so high. In addition to their numerical strength, MF's steroids are about as reliable as steroids can get. Many of the champions you listed cannot use their steroids optimally in many situations: - Kog'Maw Q is blockable and is a skillshot. - Ezreal's Q is blockable and is a skillshot. In addition, to access half of his AS steroid, he must blink into his W. - Draven must consistently catch his axes. A good Draven player can do that without interference, but not with interference. - Corki must not kite for 4 seconds to get the full use of his E. - Lucian must use his spells on cooldown to get the most of his passive (otherwise his DPS sucks). - Ashe and Vayne's steroids are very consistent. Tristana's is fairly consistent. Kind of an aside, but Corki's true damage passive isn't that good. Against a 200 armor target and with LW in your inventory, it's effectively a 23% total AD ratio per auto that does not crit. It's less valuable vs. squishies (16% ratio vs 100 armor targets with a LW). It's not terrible, but it's not enough seeing as Corki cannot actually use his E optimally in most cases. Now, I'm not saying that MF is secretly a broken champion or whatever (who would believe me, anyway?). Your comparisons just seem to be biased, and I wanted to offer a counterargument. Oh, and I don't think anyone argued that GW won duels by reducing lifesteal; people were saying that they reduce the Heal summoner spell, potions, and other support heals.
: Lifesteal on Wards
Do you mean that you're able to lifesteal off wards, or you are not able to? If it's the former, I think that's intentional behaviour.
: That gives me hope, thanks! I didn't see that post.
[Here's the source!](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/uIRkkeKu-miss-fortune-feedback-thread?comment=0000)
: This is the case on every champion, including on live. It's a general fact of recall.
Is it? I remember in patch 4.something they specifically made shield damage still interrupt recall. If this is intended, then my mistake; I must've missed the reversion to that patch. EDIT: After digging around some more, it seems to be a global bug that was introduced recently. Thanks for the heads-up!
: Thoughts from a long-time MF player
I strongly disagree that she feels weaker than she is on Live. I have no problem saying that she's already underrated, but the Q buff and W+E early buffs (imo 30% AS at rank 1 W is comparable in terms of DPS to targets with a single heal; the increased uptime is also incredible) make far more powerful early in the game. When I say early, I mean like up to level 15ish as far as W is concerned, and up to level 10ish as far as E is concerned. To me, these are more than enough compensation for the (imo not that large) amount of power they stripped from her late game. Strut fixes or buffs, whatever you want to call them, are also pretty insane after you finish Bloodthirster. E's scaling to 5% less than live does not matter in the slightest. This "nerf" is more than compensated by the much stronger level 1 E. So what if the slow is good enough for E to be a one-point wonder? Would you rather have the old E spell with the new 2 second duration? Besides, the damage still scales at 55 per level, so it's not like leveling E is useless. I know I'm still going to max E second, regardless of the fact that the slow scales less because it's literally stronger or the same at all ranks except rank 5 (3 second duration -> 2 second duration change aside, since I believe Riot would have made that change regardless of whether they wanted to buff/nerf MF). I replied to another one of your posts below, but I believe W's duration is still intended to be 6 seconds. I highly, highly doubt that Q will ever prioritize champions unless it comes with large mana/damage nerfs. It would be far too reliable to be allowed to have that much power. Yes, removing Grievous Wounds makes some matchups, especially Soraka, more difficult. Is it unwarranted? No, because the way Miss Fortune used to crap all over Soraka's playstyle was completely unfair. The other matchups will likely not be all that different if you simply land one or two killbounce Qs before all-inning. The only thing I'm still unsatisfied with is the fact that W only gives her normal Strut, but I don't know how much more we can ask for without MF being straight-up broken in the hands of a good player.
: Honestly, not only are W steroid and E changes not enough compensation, *but they're both nerfed*. They may have more impact in the early ranks, but at rank 5 both are objectively worse than they were before (at least as written in tooltips. As I said, I think the W is bugged on PBE, making it as strong a steroid as old W). I'm not sure about giving MF the Garen treatment, regarding passive, first because I think the new W active should be gone entirely and second because if she were balanced properly it wouldn't be necessary. You do NOT fix an unpopular champ by nerfing three things and then calling the QoL changes enough to put her back where she was.
W is, afaik based on my interpretation of a Rioter's post in this forum, working as intended on the PBE. The 3-hit version is not shipping to live; it was an old version of W they were testing and they forgot to remove the tooltip.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: I think the idea is that you can slow them and instant-strut away. Teemo has to drop a mushroom to slow, and the range makes him more vulnerable to CC. MF can slow at a distance then run off.
Teemo doesn't really have to drop a shroom to have Move Quick's active be useful, though. The active alone can allow him to kite, though of course a mushroom helps. MF's range advantage over Teemo doesn't matter if you're getting dove on, which is when you really need the escape.
: Miss Fortune feedback thread!
I'm happy about most of the changes, especially the shielded passive and Q kill bounce bonus damage (the latter is possibly even too strong). The one thing I'm still unsatisfied with is having the Impure Shots active only giving normal Strut as opposed to a Teemo W variant (i.e. temporarily can't be broken by damage). I understand that adding that effect is far too strong on its own, but I'd welcome even a temporarily weaker Strut in exchange for the reliability that effect would bring. As is, the Strut from W activation can be immediately canceled in most situations where you would use it as an escape, relegating it to a teamfight cleanup tool.
: It appears Azir can in fact use his W on turrets : when he's in range he can Use the W on a turret, it will deal damage based on the damage indicated in the tooltip (it seems to apply tower resitstance) IT DOES NOT SUMMON A SOLDIER but it uses a stack the canalisation just wasn't over on the screenshot
Not a bug; they're just testing this as a way for him to damage turrets without actually letting soldiers attack them.
: For his Q, have you considered making it possible to damage someone with more than one soldier? Maybe have "soldiers beyond the first deal only 40% damage"? Otherwise, probably the slow amount is the direction to go - since his soldier-attacks are all his damage, he needs to keep them in attack range for a more guarantee-able amount of time.
Soldiers do inflict extra damage if you stack their attacks on a target. Extra soldiers currently do 20% extra damage for each beyond the first. His Q also does 20% damage for each extra soldier that hits the target. These things just aren't reflected in the tooltips yet.
: A few bugs: - I've only had a few hours of gameplay with Azir, so I'm not 100%, but it just felt really off. I've noticed that when I orb walk incorrectly and cancel a soldier's autoattack before he actually hits something, it uses up the autoattack anyway and I have to wait even though I didn't actually get the attack off. If this is intended, then it's a pretty brutal mechanic as you effectively lose your autoattack if you click away too fast. - The range at which you can send soldiers off with Q is larger than the range indicator shows. I don't have pictures right now with servers overloaded, but they're a good amount outside the range indicator. Preference among other things: - Arise! (W): He feels clunky with that cast time on his W. I'm assuming this was intended, but he'd feel so much better to play if W casting was more like Zed's where you're not rooted during cast time. Would that make him safer than he already he? Definitely, especially since it means W->E or W->Q->E would be much quicker and smoother than how it is now. - Conquering Sands (Q): The soldiers don't seem to follow the path you set for them very accurately. This is a broad example (and maybe not entirely accurate), but I Q to send two soldiers straight to the big wolf of the camp. One ends up just on the edge of the entrance to the camp and the other ends up above the big wolf. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but functionally it seems off. - Shifting Sands (E): Not too much to say about this one other than the W->Q->E thing more fluid so it's on the level of say an insec (ward place->safeguard to ward). - Emperor's Divide (R): Haven't had much of a chance to do anything with the ult other than use it for extra damage, but then again I haven't really figured out when to use it other than for disengage or as a pseudo Lee Sin kick. It definitely has game changing properties/is high impact, but not immediately gratifying like a Syndra ult or Braum ult.
I tested the issue you found with Q. I think it occurs when two soldiers would stop at the same location; the ability tries to make them land in different places, but the soldiers only travel in straight lines. The result is that the trajectory of one of the soldiers changes so that the two reach different destination points.
: Yes! it would be awesome :)
Unfortunately that affects the clarity of the ability. His ult doesn't actually do anything to him, and making him bigger might make people think that he gets extra HP like Renek and Nasus do. Would be cool, though.
: Actually it makes no difference, as Liandry's is a DoT and thus does the reduced slow from rylai's.
Rylai's and Liandry's both proc from spell damage, not magic damage. Spell damage is any damage from champion abilities (and some outliers like Brand passive, Zyra plant autos, etc.). Liandry's does not proc Rylai's in any way. The way that Rylai's improves Liandry's (or vice versa, depending on how you look at it I guess) is that Rylai's applies a slow that doubles the damage dealt by Liandry's. The slow itself is not changed upon having both items.
: Azir, the Emperor of the Sands
I've tried him a couple of times and a few usability/clarity issues stand out to me. 1) It's really easy to cancel a soldier auto. Perhaps is this necessary from a balance perspective to force Azir to commit to an auto, but in that case the animation should reflect the real point at which the auto hits (i.e. make swing come out later). I've seen some comments that say it's currently bugged and sometimes canceling the soldier auto doesn't reset the attack timer. 2) Soldier placement is annoying when targeting outside of maximum range. Currently, his W places a soldier at max range from where Azir is currently located if you target a spot outside that max range. I think selecting a target outside his W range should move Azir into range and place the soldier exactly where the player intended to place it. 3) Moving multiple soldiers with Q causes some weird pathing issues. The soldiers try to avoid landing inside each other, but the result of this is that they sometimes take completely different paths to get to their destinations. The result of this is that it's hard to get multiple soldiers to hit the same target. Not sure how to solve this without allowing the soldiers to stack. Maybe force them to pass through the targeted spot, then unstack? 4) Soldier range indicator should be clearer. Currently it feels a bit too faint; the circle should be less like Orianna leash circle and more like Gragas barrel circle. 5) Soldiers should have duration indicators, ala Yasuo E and Udyr E. Fairly self-explanatory. 6) Q probably should not move soldiers that are outside of Azir's command range. Doesn't make sense thematically, though one might make the argument that it makes him less clunky to play. 7) When you move out of soldier command range, the leash should have some kind of obvious "snap" animation instead of just fading out of existence. The "fading out of existence" thing makes it hard to see exactly when you lose control. I also feel like his E mechanics are a bit out of place on his kit. I understand it's to enable him to all-in, but it still feels odd to have a J4 initiation on a squishy zoning mage.

Everlark

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